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Atlanteax
03-31-2011, 01:15 PM
This was a topic being discussed recently, with mention of GW Bush and now Obama with Libya.

So quoting this article from STRATFOR as an educational read...


What Happened to the American Declaration of War?

By George Friedman

In my book “The Next Decade,” I spend a good deal of time considering the relation of the American Empire to the American Republic and the threat the empire poses to the republic. If there is a single point where these matters converge, it is in the constitutional requirement that Congress approve wars through a declaration of war and in the abandonment of this requirement since World War II. This is the point where the burdens and interests of the United States as a global empire collide with the principles and rights of the United States as a republic.

World War II was the last war the United States fought with a formal declaration of war. The wars fought since have had congressional approval, both in the sense that resolutions were passed and that Congress appropriated funds, but the Constitution is explicit in requiring a formal declaration. It does so for two reasons, I think. The first is to prevent the president from taking the country to war without the consent of the governed, as represented by Congress. Second, by providing for a specific path to war, it provides the president power and legitimacy he would not have without that declaration; it both restrains the president and empowers him. Not only does it make his position as commander in chief unassailable by authorizing military action, it creates shared responsibility for war. A declaration of war informs the public of the burdens they will have to bear by leaving no doubt that Congress has decided on a new order — war — with how each member of Congress voted made known to the public.

Almost all Americans have heard Franklin Roosevelt’s speech to Congress on Dec. 8, 1941: “Yesterday, Dec. 7, 1941 — a date which will live in infamy — the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan … I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, Dec. 7, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire.”

It was a moment of majesty and sobriety, and with Congress’ affirmation, represented the unquestioned will of the republic. There was no going back, and there was no question that the burden would be borne. True, the Japanese had attacked the United States, making getting the declaration easier. But that’s what the founders intended: Going to war should be difficult; once at war, the commander in chief’s authority should be unquestionable.

Forgoing the Declaration

It is odd, therefore, that presidents who need that authorization badly should forgo pursuing it. Not doing so has led to seriously failed presidencies: Harry Truman in Korea, unable to seek another term; Lyndon Johnson in Vietnam, also unable to seek a new term; George W. Bush in Afghanistan and Iraq, completing his terms but enormously unpopular. There was more to this than undeclared wars, but that the legitimacy of each war was questioned and became a contentious political issue certainly is rooted in the failure to follow constitutional pathways.

In understanding how war and constitutional norms became separated, we must begin with the first major undeclared war in American history (the Civil War was not a foreign war), Korea. When North Korea invaded South Korea, Truman took recourse to the new U.N. Security Council. He wanted international sanction for the war and was able to get it because the Soviet representatives happened to be boycotting the Security Council over other issues at the time.

Truman’s view was that U.N. sanction for the war superseded the requirement for a declaration of war in two ways. First, it was not a war in the strict sense, he argued, but a “police action” under the U.N. Charter. Second, the U.N. Charter constituted a treaty, therefore implicitly binding the United States to go to war if the United Nations so ordered. Whether Congress’ authorization to join the United Nations both obligated the United States to wage war at U.N. behest, obviating the need for declarations of war because Congress had already authorized police actions, is an interesting question. Whatever the answer, Truman set a precedent that wars could be waged without congressional declarations of war and that other actions — from treaties to resolutions to budgetary authorizations — mooted declarations of war.

If this was the founding precedent, the deepest argument for the irrelevancy of the declaration of war is to be found in nuclear weapons. Starting in the 1950s, paralleling the Korean War, was the increasing risk of nuclear war. It was understood that if nuclear war occurred, either through an attack by the Soviets or a first strike by the United States, time and secrecy made a prior declaration of war by Congress impossible. In the expected scenario of a Soviet first strike, there would be only minutes for the president to authorize counterstrikes and no time for constitutional niceties. In that sense, it was argued fairly persuasively that the Constitution had become irrelevant to the military realities facing the republic.

Nuclear war was seen as the most realistic war-fighting scenario, with all other forms of war trivial in comparison. Just as nuclear weapons came to be called “strategic weapons” with other weapons of war occupying a lesser space, nuclear war became identical with war in general. If that was so, then constitutional procedures that could not be applied to nuclear war were simply no longer relevant.

Paradoxically, if nuclear warfare represented the highest level of warfare, there developed at the lowest level covert operations. Apart from the nuclear confrontation with the Soviets, there was an intense covert war, from back alleys in Europe to the Congo, Indochina to Latin America. Indeed, it was waged everywhere precisely because the threat of nuclear war was so terrible: Covert warfare became a prudent alternative. All of these operations had to be deniable. An attempt to assassinate a Soviet agent or raise a secret army to face a Soviet secret army could not be validated with a declaration of war. The Cold War was a series of interconnected but discrete operations, fought with secret forces whose very principle was deniability. How could declarations of war be expected in operations so small in size that had to be kept secret from Congress anyway?

There was then the need to support allies, particularly in sending advisers to train their armies. These advisers were not there to engage in combat but to advise those who did. In many cases, this became an artificial distinction: The advisers accompanied their students on missions, and some died. But this was not war in any conventional sense of the term. And therefore, the declaration of war didn’t apply.

By the time Vietnam came up, the transition from military assistance to advisers to advisers in combat to U.S. forces at war was so subtle that there was no moment to which you could point that said that we were now in a state of war where previously we weren’t. Rather than ask for a declaration of war, Johnson used an incident in the Tonkin Gulf to get a congressional resolution that he interpreted as being the equivalent of war. The problem here was that it was not clear that had he asked for a formal declaration of war he would have gotten one. Johnson didn’t take that chance.

What Johnson did was use Cold War precedents, from the Korean War, to nuclear warfare, to covert operations to the subtle distinctions of contemporary warfare in order to wage a substantial and extended war based on the Tonkin Gulf resolution — which Congress clearly didn’t see as a declaration of war — instead of asking for a formal declaration. And this represented the breakpoint. In Vietnam, the issue was not some legal or practical justification for not asking for a declaration. Rather, it was a political consideration.

Johnson did not know that he could get a declaration; the public might not be prepared to go to war. For this reason, rather than ask for a declaration, he used all the prior precedents to simply go to war without a declaration. In my view, that was the moment the declaration of war as a constitutional imperative collapsed. And in my view, so did the Johnson presidency. In hindsight, he needed a declaration badly, and if he could not get it, Vietnam would have been lost, and so may have been his presidency. Since Vietnam was lost anyway from lack of public consensus, his decision was a mistake. But it set the stage for everything that came after — war by resolution rather than by formal constitutional process.

After the war, Congress created the War Powers Act in recognition that wars might commence before congressional approval could be given. However, rather than returning to the constitutional method of the Declaration of War, which can be given after the commencement of war if necessary (consider World War II) Congress chose to bypass declarations of war in favor of resolutions allowing wars. Their reason was the same as the president’s: It was politically safer to authorize a war already under way than to invoke declarations of war.

All of this arose within the assertion that the president’s powers as commander in chief authorized him to engage in warfare without a congressional declaration of war, an idea that came in full force in the context of nuclear war and then was extended to the broader idea that all wars were at the discretion of the president. From my simple reading, the Constitution is fairly clear on the subject: Congress is given the power to declare war. At that moment, the president as commander in chief is free to prosecute the war as he thinks best. But constitutional law and the language of the Constitution seem to have diverged. It is a complex field of study, obviously.

An Increasing Tempo of Operations

All of this came just before the United States emerged as the world’s single global power — a global empire — that by definition would be waging war at an increased tempo, from Kuwait, to Haiti, to Kosovo, to Afghanistan, to Iraq, and so on in an ever-increasing number of operations. And now in Libya, we have reached the point that even resolutions are no longer needed.

It is said that there is no precedent for fighting al Qaeda, for example, because it is not a nation but a subnational group. Therefore, Bush could not reasonably have been expected to ask for a declaration of war. But there is precedent: Thomas Jefferson asked for and received a declaration of war against the Barbary pirates. This authorized Jefferson to wage war against a subnational group of pirates as if they were a nation.

Had Bush requested a declaration of war on al Qaeda on Sept. 12, 2001, I suspect it would have been granted overwhelmingly, and the public would have understood that the United States was now at war for as long as the president thought wise. The president would have been free to carry out operations as he saw fit. Roosevelt did not have to ask for special permission to invade Guadalcanal, send troops to India, or invade North Africa. In the course of fighting Japan, Germany and Italy, it was understood that he was free to wage war as he thought fit. In the same sense, a declaration of war on Sept. 12 would have freed him to fight al Qaeda wherever they were or to move to block them wherever the president saw fit.

Leaving aside the military wisdom of Afghanistan or Iraq, the legal and moral foundations would have been clear — so long as the president as commander in chief saw an action as needed to defeat al Qaeda, it could be taken. Similarly, as commander in chief, Roosevelt usurped constitutional rights for citizens in many ways, from censorship to internment camps for Japanese-Americans. Prisoners of war not adhering to the Geneva Conventions were shot by military tribunal — or without. In a state of war, different laws and expectations exist than during peace. Many of the arguments against Bush-era intrusions on privacy also could have been made against Roosevelt. But Roosevelt had a declaration of war and full authority as commander in chief during war. Bush did not. He worked in twilight between war and peace.

One of the dilemmas that could have been avoided was the massive confusion of whether the United States was engaged in hunting down a criminal conspiracy or waging war on a foreign enemy. If the former, then the goal is to punish the guilty. If the latter, then the goal is to destroy the enemy. Imagine that after Pearl Harbor, FDR had promised to hunt down every pilot who attacked Pearl Harbor and bring them to justice, rather than calling for a declaration of war against a hostile nation and all who bore arms on its behalf regardless of what they had done. The goal in war is to prevent the other side from acting, not to punish the actors.

The Importance of the Declaration

A declaration of war, I am arguing, is an essential aspect of war fighting particularly for the republic when engaged in frequent wars. It achieves a number of things. First, it holds both Congress and the president equally responsible for the decision, and does so unambiguously. Second, it affirms to the people that their lives have now changed and that they will be bearing burdens. Third, it gives the president the political and moral authority he needs to wage war on their behalf and forces everyone to share in the moral responsibility of war. And finally, by submitting it to a political process, many wars might be avoided. When we look at some of our wars after World War II it is not clear they had to be fought in the national interest, nor is it clear that the presidents would not have been better remembered if they had been restrained. A declaration of war both frees and restrains the president, as it was meant to do.

I began by talking about the American empire. I won’t make the argument on that here, but simply assert it. What is most important is that the republic not be overwhelmed in the course of pursuing imperial goals. The declaration of war is precisely the point at which imperial interests can overwhelm republican prerogatives.

There are enormous complexities here. Nuclear war has not been abolished. The United States has treaty obligations to the United Nations and other countries. Covert operations are essential, as is military assistance, both of which can lead to war. I am not making the argument that constant accommodation to reality does not have to be made. I am making the argument that the suspension of Section 8 of Article I as if it is possible to amend the Constitution with a wink and nod represents a mortal threat to the republic. If this can be done, what can’t be done?

My readers will know that I am far from squeamish about war. I have questions about Libya, for example, but I am open to the idea that it is a low-cost, politically appropriate measure. But I am not open to the possibility that quickly after the commencement of hostilities the president need not receive authority to wage war from Congress. And I am arguing that neither the Congress nor the president has the authority to substitute resolutions for declarations of war. Nor should either want to. Politically, this has too often led to disaster for presidents. Morally, committing the lives of citizens to waging war requires meticulous attention to the law and proprieties.

As our international power and interests surge, it would seem reasonable that our commitment to republican principles would surge. These commitments appear inconvenient. They are meant to be. War is a serious matter, and presidents and particularly Congresses should be inconvenienced on the road to war. Members of Congress should not be able to hide behind ambiguous resolutions only to turn on the president during difficult times, claiming that they did not mean what they voted for. A vote on a declaration of war ends that. It also prevents a president from acting as king by default. Above all, it prevents the public from pretending to be victims when their leaders take them to war. The possibility of war will concentrate the mind of a distracted public like nothing else. It turns voting into a life-or-death matter, a tonic for our adolescent body politic.

Atlanteax
03-31-2011, 01:21 PM
Btw, for trolling purposes, note that Truman and Johnson were Democrats, and effectively made GW Bush's Afghan & Iraq campaigns possible.

IorakeWarhammer
03-31-2011, 02:15 PM
THANK YOU

Latrinsorm
03-31-2011, 02:34 PM
The first is to prevent the president from taking the country to war without the consent of the governed, as represented by Congress.
Members of Congress should not be able to hide behind ambiguous resolutions only to turn on the president during difficult times, claiming that they did not mean what they voted for. A vote on a declaration of war ends that.
Above all, it prevents the public from pretending to be victims when their leaders take them to war. The possibility of war will concentrate the mind of a distracted public like nothing else. It turns voting into a life-or-death matter, a tonic for our adolescent body politic.It feels like someone went through this article and took all the "shoulds" out... the consent of the governed should be represented by Congress, a declaration of war should end that, it should prevent the public from pretending to be victims. Call me cynical if you must, but I do not think there are any circumstances that will prevent a member of Congress from turning on their prior stance if they think it politically expedient to do so, and I definitely don't think that the electorate voting a Senator out of office six years later is an empowerment against that Senator's policies. Some American wars don't even last six years, for Pete's sake.

ClydeR
03-31-2011, 04:43 PM
First, the operation in Libya is not a war.

Second, Congress can vote on it anytime they want to. It looks like they don't want to vote on it until after they see how it turns out.

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 12:23 AM
First, the operation in Libya is not a war.

Second, Congress can vote on it anytime they want to. It looks like they don't want to vote on it until after they see how it turns out.

Semantics.

The U.S. is using deadly military force against another military force. That is war.

Gelston
04-01-2011, 01:05 AM
From wiki- War is an openly declared state of organized violent conflict,[1][2] typified by extreme aggression, societal disruption, and high mortality.[1] As a behavior pattern, warlike tendencies are found in many primate species,[3] including humans, and also found in many ant species.[4][5][6] The set of techniques used by a group to carry out war is known as warfare

Based off of this definition it is war. It is a declared state of organized violent conflict, via the UN resolutions. There is extreme aggression and societal disruption.

Back
04-01-2011, 01:22 AM
Its 2011 or so I’ve heard. Perhaps its time to redefine a few things. This act is not the sole act of one country against another. This could be viewed as a unilateral act of the UN against a rogue state but isn’t it really a democratic majority of the planet saying no to oppression of the common people?

Gelston
04-01-2011, 01:48 AM
Are you saying it isn't war?

Back
04-01-2011, 01:53 AM
If you want to go strictly by definition, no. If anything its more an act of sedition.

Gelston
04-01-2011, 01:54 AM
It is absolutely war. It doesn't matter what body initiates it. I requires only two or more groups, and it doesn't specifically have to be nations.

1.
a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation; warfare, as by land, sea, or air.
2.
a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.
3.
a contest carried on by force of arms, as in a series of battles or campaigns: the War of 1812.
4.
active hostility or contention; conflict; contest: a war of words.
5.
aggressive business conflict, as through severe price cutting in the same industry or any other means of undermining competitors: a fare war among airlines; a trade war between nations.
6.
a struggle: a war for men's minds; a war against poverty.
7.
armed fighting, as a science, profession, activity, or art; methods or principles of waging armed conflict: War is the soldier's business.
8.
Cards .
a.
a game for two or more persons, played with a 52-card pack evenly divided between the players, in which each player turns up one card at a time with the higher card taking the lower, and in which, when both turned up cards match, each player lays one card face down and turns up another, the player with the higher card of the second turn taking all the cards laid down.
b.
an occasion in this game when both turned up cards match.
9.
Archaic . a battle.
–verb (used without object)
10.
to make or carry on war; fight: to war with a neighboring nation.
11.
to carry on active hostility or contention: Throughout her life she warred with sin and corruption.
12.
to be in conflict or in a state of strong opposition: The temptation warred with his conscience.
–adjective
13.
of, belonging to, used in, or due to war: war preparations; war hysteria.


...How does it not fit those definitions?

Back
04-01-2011, 01:56 AM
So what do you call the act of a bouncer who breaks up a fight in a bar?

Gelston
04-01-2011, 01:57 AM
Not to mention, that if you call this sedition, you consider Qadaffi the lawful ruler of Libya.

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 01:58 AM
So what do you call the act of a bouncer who breaks up a fight in a bar?

Complete apples and oranges..

Gelston
04-01-2011, 01:58 AM
So what do you call the act of a bouncer who breaks up a fight in a bar?

How does this matter? Look at the multiple definitions for war, per the dictionary, and count out how many the conflict in Libya falls under.

Back
04-01-2011, 02:02 AM
Not to mention, that if you call this sedition, you consider Qadaffi the lawful ruler of Libya.


Complete apples and oranges..

Lets back up a minute here.

If you want to call this war, and you define war as active aggression of one sovereign country against another, then yes it is war.

But lets think about intent. Is this an act of aggression to enslave a people and the countries resources for our own benefit? Or is it a humanitarian effort to ultimately save lives?

Gelston
04-01-2011, 02:04 AM
Intent doesn't matter when defining war.

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 02:04 AM
But lets think about intent. Is this an act of aggression to enslave a people and the countries resources for our own benefit? Or is it a humanitarian effort to ultimately save lives?

The purpose does not matter, war is war.

Back
04-01-2011, 02:12 AM
You guys want to argue semantics. All we did was pop a couple of anti-air installations. The French shot down an airplane. I think the British drank tea at 4 GMT.

Gelston
04-01-2011, 02:14 AM
We aren't arguing semantics. Look in the dictionary. Black and white. That is war. Political they will not call it war, but it is. Don't forget the platoon of tanks the French destroyed, the Air to Air kill they had, and the bombing of Tripoli by fighter bombers. You don't launch over 150 cruise missiles without wasting some people. It is war, there is aggression involved. That is all there is to it.

Back
04-01-2011, 02:16 AM
Maybe thats why my first post on this topic says maybe we need to redefine what war is.

Gelston
04-01-2011, 02:18 AM
We don't need to. War is the same as it has always been. It is a politically charged word though. So much easier to call things "policing actions" or COIN.

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 02:20 AM
Roughly 200 tomahawk cruise missiles and 1000 air sorties, and that's just the U.S.

Back
04-01-2011, 02:21 AM
We are still evolving so that makes everything we define subject to evolutionary updates as well.

Gelston
04-01-2011, 02:23 AM
Armed conflict with another nation is war. End of story. Declaration or not. UN or not.

Back
04-01-2011, 02:27 AM
See, this is what I am talking about. We are moving forward, making progress, things change. Definitions change.

I’m starting to wonder if Democracy is really the most evolved method of progress because basically when you consult the masses you get the opinions of uneducated people with mediocre intelligence. Should all of society be held back because most of societies people are common, stupid, and tasteless?

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 03:03 AM
See, this is what I am talking about. We are moving forward, making progress, things change. Definitions change.

We are evolving as a species. We have increased our lifespans, we have been to the moon, we have harnessed the power of the sun, it's about damn time a country can attack another sovereign nation without it being called a war.

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 04:30 AM
We are evolving as a species. We have increased our lifespans, we have been to the moon, we have harnessed the power of the sun, it's about damn time a country can attack another sovereign nation without it being called a war.

Which sounds more pleasing.. limited military operation or tactical population control measures? I'm going with the latter.

Warriorbird
04-01-2011, 04:43 AM
I imagine it'd be insightful to compare STRATFOR articles on this action to the Iraq invasion.

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 05:38 AM
I imagine it'd be insightful to compare STRATFOR articles on this action to the Iraq invasion.

Found this after a little bit of digging.

http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/stratfor-iraq-goals/

Warriorbird
04-01-2011, 05:46 AM
Good show.

4a6c1
04-01-2011, 06:33 AM
Wow. So now Obama gets a pass on War? And we are too "evolved" to call it what it is? LOL. k...

War is war. Clinton did it. Bush did it. Obama is doing it.

These semantics are liberal hypocrisy. Stop being fanboys and use your eyes to see things as they are. We are using resources to invade another country. It is not a humanitarian mission. Any more than our presence in Iraq is a humanitarian mission.

It literally hurts me to state this obvious point to all of you but HUMANITARIAN MISSIONS SEND HELP NOT BOMBS. (hurrr)

Parkbandit
04-01-2011, 06:37 AM
It's not a war, it's a kinetic military action.

Two totally different things.

Really.

Clove
04-01-2011, 07:24 AM
See, this is what I am talking about. We are moving forward, making progress, things change. Definitions change.

I’m starting to wonder if Democracy is really the most evolved method of progress because basically when you consult the masses you get the opinions of uneducated people with mediocre intelligence. Should all of society be held back because most of societies people are common, stupid, and tasteless?And indeed unable to demonstrate an understanding of plural and possessive.

Clove
04-01-2011, 07:26 AM
The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.

Senator Barak Obama critiquing GWB in 2007.

The article reminds me of Eisenhower's farewell speech for some reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

Warriorbird
04-01-2011, 09:04 AM
Wow. So now Obama gets a pass on War? And we are too "evolved" to call it what it is? LOL. k...

War is war. Clinton did it. Bush did it. Obama is doing it.

These semantics are liberal hypocrisy. Stop being fanboys and use your eyes to see things as they are. We are using resources to invade another country. It is not a humanitarian mission. Any more than our presence in Iraq is a humanitarian mission.

It literally hurts me to state this obvious point to all of you but HUMANITARIAN MISSIONS SEND HELP NOT BOMBS. (hurrr)

Interesting idea. It gets more interesting when you look further back. It gets tougher to say wars are never humanitarian.

How exactly would your definition of a humanitarian mission work here, anyways?

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 09:24 AM
I think in this particular case bombs were needed to prevent a massacre of Libyan people.

Clove
04-01-2011, 10:55 AM
Interesting idea. It gets more interesting when you look further back. How exactly would your definition of a humanitarian mission work here?Here or further back?

Gan
04-01-2011, 11:10 AM
See, this is what I am talking about. We are moving forward, making progress, things change. Definitions change. It's OK as long as Obama is doing it, and not Bush. Remember, Bush lied and people died.

Fixed that for you.

ClydeR
04-01-2011, 11:23 AM
From wiki- War is an openly declared state of organized violent conflict,[1][2] typified by extreme aggression, societal disruption, and high mortality.[1] As a behavior pattern, warlike tendencies are found in many primate species,[3] including humans, and also found in many ant species.[4][5][6] The set of techniques used by a group to carry out war is known as warfare

That definition proves it is not a war. It doesn't meet the tests about violence and mortality because no Americans have been killed. It doesn't meet the test about societal disruption because it is designed to prevent societal disruption by protecting people and oil. Not even close to being a war. When the United States goes to war, there will be no doubt.

Gelston
04-01-2011, 11:25 AM
That definition proves it is not a war. It doesn't meet the tests about violence and mortality because no Americans have been killed. It doesn't meet the test about societal disruption because it is designed to prevent societal disruption by protecting people and oil. Not even close to being a war. When the United States goes to war, there will be no doubt.

It is typified by those, but not exclusive to those.

Warriorbird
04-01-2011, 11:30 AM
Here or further back?

I think that was a pair of sentences asking for a carriage return.

Back
04-01-2011, 11:51 AM
Wow. So now Obama gets a pass on War? And we are too "evolved" to call it what it is? LOL. k...

War is war. Clinton did it. Bush did it. Obama is doing it.

These semantics are liberal hypocrisy. Stop being fanboys and use your eyes to see things as they are. We are using resources to invade another country. It is not a humanitarian mission. Any more than our presence in Iraq is a humanitarian mission.

It literally hurts me to state this obvious point to all of you but HUMANITARIAN MISSIONS SEND HELP NOT BOMBS. (hurrr)

I’m really surprised at this post. It has nothing to do with being a fanboy and everything to do with preventing the loss of lives. I agree that our presence in Iraq was not a humanitarian mission but thats where the similarities end.

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 12:23 PM
I’m really surprised at this post. It has nothing to do with being a fanboy and everything to do with preventing the loss of lives. I agree that our presence in Iraq was not a humanitarian mission but thats where the similarities end.

It had a positive humanitarian effect though.

Clove
04-01-2011, 01:00 PM
I’m really surprised at this post. It has nothing to do with being a fanboy and everything to do with preventing the loss of lives.By bombing Libyans?

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 01:07 PM
I’m really surprised at this post. It has nothing to do with being a fanboy and everything to do with preventing the loss of lives.

Weren't people dying by the thousands under Saddam Hussein's oppressive rule? What with him bombing his own people, killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people every time there was an assassination attempt, using the 'oil for food' money to buy more weapons instead of, y'know, food?

Something tells me if Bush came out and said "We are going to bomb Iraq to save lives" people would have first laughed at him then second kept up with the "Bush is a warmongering devil" rhetoric. But Obama gets a pass because we have evolved so much over the last 7 years that dropping bombs on people is no longer considered an aggressive act of war.

HJFudge
04-01-2011, 01:32 PM
If Obama does it, it must be wrong. Despite anything we may have said previously.

That seems to be the prevailing opinion of many on these boards.

The action against Momar Qadaffi or however you spell his name was necessary to save a city from massacre.

Is this in dispute? Does anyone doubt the above statement is true? Sure we probably had a lot of other reasons for doing it which weren't so noble. But that doesn't change the fact that through the offensive actions we have taken, we've saved lives.

As long as we don't seek to OCCUPY this place, I'm with Obama on this. As soon as we're sending in thousands of troops to set up camp for an indeterminate amount of time, I'll withdraw my support.

Gan
04-01-2011, 01:35 PM
If Obama does it, it must be wrong. Despite anything we may have said previously.

That seems to be the prevailing opinion of many on these boards.



LOL

Do you read these boards often?

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 01:36 PM
If Obama does it, it must be wrong. Despite anything we may have said previously.

That seems to be the prevailing opinion of many on these boards.

Obama being wrong and calling this a war do not have to be one in the same. Sometimes war is the only solution, it's sad but that's the world we live in today. But now Obama supporters are trying their hardest to call this anything but a war considering all of the shit they gave Bush for his wars.

HJFudge I think I see the problem here, you may have to try pulling your head out of your ass for a bit to participate in this discussion.

TheEschaton
04-01-2011, 01:37 PM
Wow. So now Obama gets a pass on War? And we are too "evolved" to call it what it is? LOL. k...

War is war. Clinton did it. Bush did it. Obama is doing it.

These semantics are liberal hypocrisy. Stop being fanboys and use your eyes to see things as they are. We are using resources to invade another country. It is not a humanitarian mission. Any more than our presence in Iraq is a humanitarian mission.

It literally hurts me to state this obvious point to all of you but HUMANITARIAN MISSIONS SEND HELP NOT BOMBS. (hurrr)

To be completely clear, I am as against Obama going into Libya without a declaration of war, as I was against Bush going into Iraq without a declaration of war.

I hope our board Bushies note that the response on the left has been mixed, at best, some holding with my view (and Obama's view from 2007 or whatever it was), some apologizing for the President like that retard Backlash. Lest anyone ever confuse Obama supporters as rabid, unthinking, and lockstep as Bush supporters.

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 01:39 PM
What Happened to the... 04-01-2011 01:33 PM Main difference between Iraq and Libya is in the handling. Putting troops on the ground with the intent to occupy the place was Bush's mistake. - HJFudge

Ah, so killing people and attacking another nations infrastructure from the air doesn't constitute a war. Boy we sure are getting real picky in our advanced ways.

HJFudge
04-01-2011, 01:40 PM
But now Obama supporters are trying their hardest to call this anything but a war considering all of the shit they gave Bush for his wars.

HJFudge I think I see the problem here, you may have to try pulling your head out of your ass for a bit to participate in this discussion.

Oh the irony.

Hint: See TheEschalon's post.

HJFudge
04-01-2011, 01:42 PM
What Happened to the... 04-01-2011 01:33 PM Main difference between Iraq and Libya is in the handling. Putting troops on the ground with the intent to occupy the place was Bush's mistake. - HJFudge

Ah, so killing people and attacking another nations infrastructure from the air doesn't constitute a war. Boy we sure are getting real picky in our advanced ways.

Way to put words in my mouth. Quote me saying this isn't a war. I'll wait.

In the mean time, please remember: You are retarded.

TheEschaton
04-01-2011, 01:49 PM
Also, even if this war had a humanitarian end to it (namely to prevent the large scale massacre of an entire city), it 1) still subverts the Constitution, and 2) merely illustrates our resounding hypocrisy in being "the world's policeman," selectively picking which conflicts to police, and which to have concerned conversations about at cocktail parties.

ETA: I will credit Obama one thing: he outright acknowledged this hypocrisy in his speech to the nation, saying we cannot police everything, and that we have to make choices where we intervene. I think the ridiculousness is the metric we make these choices on - namely business and a Cold War mindset, instead of, say, the millions of people who died in Rwanda and are dying in Sudan.

My opinion is, we don't police the world. When we go to war, we declare it formally and for reasons well articulated and proven. Perhaps Libya, or Iraq, or Bosnia, or Iraq the first time would have qualified when held up to scrutiny, perhaps not, but the discussion was barely had. Along with that comes the responsibility to not prop up the tinpot dictators who are beneficial to our business interests while we ignore, or even enable, their oppressive regimes. CF Saddam in the 80s, Osama before that, Hosni Mubarak until this year, Israel in the West Bank, almost every single brutal dictator Latin America has ever seen, etc, etc, etc.

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 01:53 PM
Oh the irony.

Hint: See TheEschalon's post.

When was the Iraq War called the Iraq Humanitarian Advance?


Way to put words in my mouth. Quote me saying this isn't a war. I'll wait.

That's what this whole thread is about, whether or not this is a war, since when did we stop declaring war. War. What is it good for? So perhaps instead of changing the topic suddenly and proclaiming that everyone thinks Obama is a bad bad man instead of following the conversation of the topic you should take my prior advice and pull your head out of your ass.

Back
04-01-2011, 01:53 PM
Call it what you want. I support the decision on Libya and not the one on Iraq.

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 01:55 PM
Call it what you want. I support the decision on Libya and not the one on Iraq.

We know that because you're a hypocrite. At least you've finally found the courage to just admit it instead of all of this word wrangling you've been doing.

TheEschaton
04-01-2011, 01:55 PM
Then you're a jackass, Back, because the opposition to the war in Iraq was based on the fact that it was a political thing to do, and not actually a humanitarian mission, much like this conflict, even if both achieved humanitarian goals.

God, your retard makes me want to come to Washington just to beat your face in, and I'm a pacifist.

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 01:57 PM
God, your retard makes me want to come to Washington just to beat your face in, and I'm a pacifist.

And this coming from the guy who would carry his own TV to the burglars van for him because the burglar has a bad back.

HJFudge
04-01-2011, 02:00 PM
When was the Iraq War called the Iraq Humanitarian Advance?

That's what this whole thread is about, whether or not this is a war, since when did we stop declaring war. War. What is it good for? So perhaps instead of changing the topic suddenly and proclaiming that everyone thinks Obama is a bad bad man instead of following the conversation of the topic you should take my prior advice and pull your head out of your ass.

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I think obviously you must. How you can even begin to get what you got from my statements is...well, its like you stopped reading when I said Obama and didn't follow it with 'is full of shit'.

You then proceeded to argue a point which I did not address or bring up, and continue on doing so even when I point out to you in specific terms that I did not say or argue about this being Not A War.

In the above post you quote me twice, once about my ironic statement...which you respond with inanity that has nothing to do with what is ironic about your statements, and then you continue by ignoring the fact that a Tangent Topic on the differences between the Iraq War and the Libyan War has been brought up....namely by you in the post right above mine on the topic.

But at this point, given your comments which have nothing to do with anything being said by anyone at all it is clear you are arguing with yourself.

Which, much like masturbation, is best done alone or online with your little forum friends. I, however, shall take no part in the little jerking and stroking of egos and leave you guys to it.

Post Script: You are still retarded. So very, very, retarded.

TheEschaton
04-01-2011, 02:01 PM
Exactly, morons on my side of the political fence make me more irate than people stealing my shit.

Back
04-01-2011, 02:04 PM
We know that because you're a hypocrite. At least you've finally found the courage to just admit it instead of all of this word wrangling you've been doing.


Then you're a jackass, Back, because the opposition to the war in Iraq was based on the fact that it was a political thing to do, and not actually a humanitarian mission, much like this conflict, even if both achieved humanitarian goals.

God, your retard makes me want to come to Washington just to beat your face in, and I'm a pacifist.

I’d be interested in opinion polls on the subject. How many people support Libya but not Iraq, who supported Iraq but not Libya, both or neither and why?

But the real subject of this thread is try-to-nail-our-president-for-political-points.

Clove
04-01-2011, 02:11 PM
And this coming from the guy who would carry his own TV to the burglars van for him because the burglar has a bad back.And he's brown!

HJFudge
04-01-2011, 02:12 PM
the opposition to the war in Iraq was based on the fact that it was a political thing to do, and not actually a humanitarian mission, much like this conflict, even if both achieved humanitarian goals.


Well, in my case at least, not quite. I opposed the Iraq war because I felt it unnecessary, wasteful, and poorly handled rather than simply because it was politically motivated.

Also, the point on hypocrisy. I'd like to address it.

Is helping out one group of people because "they need it" and not helping out another group of people who also need it hypocritical? Sure.

I do not feel that is valid enough reason to criticize though.

Because we can't help everyone, we shouldn't help anyone because to do so would be hypocritical? That seems a bit ridiculous. Help where we can. Its distasteful that we often do it for cold, cynical, business reasons. But if we are helping people? I think the lives saved kinda outweigh any selfish motivation.

And before its brought up: Yes, the Iraq war saved innocent lives too. Shame we had to spend so many of our own unnecessarily to do it. Hopefully Obama doesn't make the same mistake Bush did and ends this quick and clean.

Time will tell.

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 02:12 PM
Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I think obviously you must. How you can even begin to get what you got from my statements is...well, its like you stopped reading when I said Obama and didn't follow it with 'is full of shit'.

Oh the irony. Don't worry your post did predict the future somewhat because I stopped reading after this part because it's pretty obvious now you are completely hopeless.

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 02:14 PM
But the real subject of this thread is try-to-nail-our-president-for-political-points.

Strange huh? First time that has ever happened.

TheEschaton
04-01-2011, 02:15 PM
I’d be interested in opinion polls on the subject. How many people support Libya but not Iraq, who supported Iraq but not Libya, both or neither and why?

But the real subject of this thread is try-to-nail-our-president-for-political-points.

I hear polls reflect reality.

Do you really think I'm concerned about "trying-to-nail-our-president-for-political-points"? I donated to his campaign, I worked on his campaign in Massachusetts (but yeah, not much work needed there, har har har), and I support many of his positions. One thing I do not support, and one thing HE DID NOT SUPPORT, was unilateral military action in other countries.

Back
04-01-2011, 02:20 PM
Then you're a jackass, Back, because the opposition to the war in Iraq was based on the fact that it was a political thing to do, and not actually a humanitarian mission, much like this conflict, even if both achieved humanitarian goals.

God, your retard makes me want to come to Washington just to beat your face in, and I'm a pacifist.

Just to address this one point. I opposed Iraq because I did not buy what Washington was selling at the time. They used 9/11 as an excuse for all out war against a country that had never attacked us.

I support Libya because his own people tried to peacefully protest their way to freedom and their leader just decided to say fuck you and open fire on them.

TheEschaton
04-01-2011, 02:28 PM
And people have been doing the same in Iran, last year, Syria, Bahrain, etc, this year. Should we go into these countries unilaterally as well?

I think you don't understand what's at stake here - unilaterally going into a country, military, is bad for our country, whether it achieves humanitarian goals or not.

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 02:32 PM
And people have been doing the same in Iran, last year, Syria, Bahrain, etc, this year. Should we go into these countries unilaterally as well?

If it helps drive down the price of oil. Almost 4 dollars a gallon where I live!

4a6c1
04-01-2011, 03:18 PM
Interesting idea. It gets more interesting when you look further back. It gets tougher to say wars are never humanitarian.

How exactly would your definition of a humanitarian mission work here, anyways?

I see your point before you've made it Fanboy! Genocide is not acceptable. Genocide is our meat thermometer, right? So what's the temperature. This man is not building death camps and he is not trying to thumb out the Jews.

ALTHOUGH. I'm curious why you think it is appropriate to expel only this one Hitler. Saddam was a Hitler who did bad things too... We could go there. We could go there or we could start bringing up the many various Hitlers around the world that need expulsion. Why this one? Why now?

No I'm not willling to get into semantics on the War issue. Simply put, its ridiculous.



I think in this particular case bombs were needed to prevent a massacre of Libyan people.

If this were a consistent policy we would be bombing at least half of Africa, Kuala Lumpur, Russia and part of the Arab nations right this moment.

I'm curious why you think Libya is special. GEORGIA, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia. These are also countries that need our help. Pakistan especially makes me very angry since it is indirectly our fault that those people are in such desperate need at this moment.

Warriorbird
04-01-2011, 03:31 PM
I see your point before you've made it Fanboy! Genocide is not acceptable. Genocide is our meat thermometer, right? So what's the temperature. This man is not building death camps and he is not trying to thumb out the Jews.

ALTHOUGH. I'm curious why you think it is appropriate to expel only this one Hitler. Saddam was a Hitler who did bad things too... We could go there. We could go there or we could start bringing up the many various Hitlers around the world that need expulsion. Why this one? Why now?

No I'm not willling to get into semantics on the War issue. Simply put, its ridiculous.


Might it to have something to do with the sheer egregiousness of bombing his own people and actual redemptive foreign policy for our international image?

I'd have been in favor of the whole Saddam debacle if he didn't mean we failed up our more pressing mission at that point and we weren't somehow going to "democratize." Iraq.

But you took the silver too and you know it.

I've also been in favor of Pakistan for a LONG time and been routinely made fun of on these boards for it... as was Obama's position RE: Pakistan (not that he's followed it, which I am unhappy about.)

Parkbandit
04-01-2011, 03:32 PM
I’d be interested in opinion polls on the subject. How many people support Libya but not Iraq, who supported Iraq but not Libya, both or neither and why?

But the real subject of this thread is try-to-nail-our-president-for-political-points.

You will never see a poll like that, because it would illustrate how hypocritical people are on both sides of the aisle.

But, if you are looking at the polls from pre-Iraq and pre-Libya, they were roughly the same.

ClydeR
04-01-2011, 03:34 PM
unilaterally

Why do you keep saying it was unilateral? And why is no one else calling you on it? It wasn't unilateral. There wouldn't be anything wrong with going into Libya unilaterally, but that's not what happened.

Gan
04-01-2011, 03:37 PM
If this were a consistent policy we would be bombing at least half of Africa, Kuala Lumpur, Russia and part of the Arab nations right this moment.

I'm curious why you think Libya is special. GEORGIA, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia. These are also countries that need our help. Pakistan especially makes me very angry since it is indirectly our fault that those people are in such desperate need at this moment.

My office chair is being very dictatorial this morning. So I fart bombed it.

Allah help the victim that sits on this turd claymore when I get up.

Tgo01
04-01-2011, 03:42 PM
When is a war not a war? When it is started by a Nobel Peace prize winner.

4a6c1
04-01-2011, 04:03 PM
Might it to have something to do with the sheer egregiousness of bombing his own people and actual redemptive foreign policy for our international image?

I'd have been in favor of the whole Saddam debacle if he didn't mean we failed up our more pressing mission at that point and we weren't somehow going to "democratize." Iraq.

But you took the silver too and you know it.

I've also been in favor of Pakistan for a LONG time and been routinely made fun of on these boards for it... as was Obama's position RE: Pakistan (not that he's followed it, which I am unhappy about.)

No.
Yes.
No. (Maybe. Yes. If by silver you mean Titanium alloy.)


I have a Pakistani buddy whos mother is a Doctor in that country. Poor guy begs his mother nightly to come to the US. She has a free pass just waiting for her. But she is one of the only remaining pediatricians still treating orphans with war wounds. The stories he has told me break my heart. And we are in Libya starting a whole new mess? No way. Fuck that. <insert angry tank girl image here>

RichardCranium
04-01-2011, 04:08 PM
At a time like this you just have to ask yourself, WWTGD?

4a6c1
04-01-2011, 04:10 PM
Steal water. Sex up a kangaroo. Repair tank. REPEAT.

AnticorRifling
04-01-2011, 04:14 PM
Steal water. Sex up a kangaroo. Repair tank. REPEAT.

Or as I like to call it Tuesday.

Warriorbird
04-01-2011, 04:22 PM
No.
And we are in Libya starting a whole new mess? No way. Fuck that. <insert angry tank girl image here>

I don't think we started it.

Androidpk
04-01-2011, 04:50 PM
And we are in Libya starting a whole new mess? No way. Fuck that. <insert angry tank girl image here>

1. We didn't start this shit, we're only ending it (or trying to.)
2. Turn in your tank girl card ASAP.

4a6c1
04-01-2011, 05:08 PM
Mmmhmm. Tell yourselves that.

Kembal
04-02-2011, 06:50 AM
Why do you keep saying it was unilateral? And why is no one else calling you on it? It wasn't unilateral. There wouldn't be anything wrong with going into Libya unilaterally, but that's not what happened.

It's a bad day when ClydeR gets to correct you on the facts.

Congress abrogated its responsibilities when it passed the War Powers Act and attempted to set the standard lower by saying a resolution was all that was necessary after hostilities had broken out.

Congress is currently abrogating its responsibilities by not putting a declaration of war up for vote. Last I checked, they're a co-equal branch of government...Obama doesn't have to put in a request first for them to vote.

Obama did stop a massacre in Benghazi from happening by having the military intervene. Just because we don't intervene everywhere doesn't mean this intervention was a bad act. I'm just not sure what the mission is now, and the lack of clarity concerns me.