Wisconsin Unions

[Alfster]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/scott-walker-unions-wisconsin-national-guard_n_822225.html

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116162704.html

http://www.wisn.com/money/26833263/detail.html

This has been a hot topic here at home since news of this hit on Friday. I'm not a union worker, but was wondering what the people here thought of this. The news here is filled with protests against the bill.

[WRoss]

Awesome. Wisconsin might finally get some business done.

[ClydeR]

Wisconsin got that idea from Egypt. Now that Egypt is a democracy, it is using its military to deter strikes.


A military official said the Supreme Council of Armed Forces would issue an order Monday that would ban meetings by labour unions or professional syndicates and forbid strikes, and tell all Egyptians to get back to work, Al Jazeera reported.

More... (http://www.sify.com/news/protesters-disperse-as-egypt-s-military-set-to-ban-strikes-news-international-lcoqOjbadjj.html)

[Alfster]

Students all over the Chippewa Valley held rallies protesting Republican Governor Scott Walker's Budget Repair Bill, including kids from UW-Eau Claire and Memorial High School. Students say they're supporting their teachers and say they're supporting their education and future.

Most of the people we talked to say they want our elected representatives in Madison to know there are other ways to make a dent in the state's budget. Hundreds of people took to the UW-Eau Claire Campus, armed with signs, chants and a hope that Governor Walker's budget proposal doesn't go ahead as planned.

"It's difficult to concentrate on your job when you keep thinking, am I going to be able to stay at this job," says state worker and UWEC Graduate Student, Sue Falch.

"I think if people think about what he's really proposing instead of slamming it through, changes will be made," says UWEC Math Professor, James Walker.

Governor Scott Walker wants state workers to pay more for their health benefits and pay more into pensions along with nearly eliminating collective bargaining rights to help cut down the state's debt. Some students on campus sympathize with their teachers but side with Walker saying the cuts are needed.

"I absolutely agree this is damaging for the LTE workers, I am not making the argument that this is not a cut, it's going to be painful, but the private sector has had extreme pay cuts and layoffs, a lot of people have lost their jobs," says UWEC College Republicans Treasurer, Jacob Kampen.

At Eau Claire Memorial, high school students walked out of their classes shortly before 10 Wednesday morning. Some students think to do the most good, their classmates should have stayed in class.

"I understand they want to protest and they're upset but they could have gone about it a better way, like after school, because a teachers job is to teach and if you're not in the classroom they can't do that," says Memorial Student, Makenzie Wiersgalla.

The school district says the walk out was orderly and a way for students to express themselves.

"I hope our state legislators understand the actions they're about to take are very impactful across our state," says Eau Claire Superintendent Dr. Ron Heilmann.

The people who work for the state say they appreciate all the support.

"It means the students do care and appreciate us, I am really here because I love what I do, I love working with students," says University Services Associate, Cynthia Welch.

Students also rallied at several other area schools Wednesday afternoon. In Madison schools were closed because nearly 40% of the teachers called in sick.

[Warriorbird]

Illinois Nazis.

[~Rocktar~]

"It's difficult to concentrate on your job when you keep thinking, am I going to be able to stay at this job," says state worker and UWEC Graduate Student, Sue Falch.

Isn't this what nearly every employed person in America thinks about most days? Unless of course they have a nice Federal government job created by the Obamanation.

[Kuyuk]

The fact that unions would have have to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5.6% into their retirement should be a blessing to them that they only have to now pay for their benefits, but they are not losing them.

[Cyprion]

Isn't this what nearly every employed person in America thinks about most days? Unless of course they have a nice Federal government job created by the Obamanation.

Yes, because there were no federal jobs before Obama...

[Tilnam]

Amazing. Walker is running the state like a business. The state is broke, so it has to cut back somewhere. Now where I work, when the bad economy hit, they did the same thing. I lost some benefits, but I knew it had to be done. Same with this. We can either cut spending or go bankrupt.

I personally, have no pity for them.

Although if they prefer, walker could just eliminate a bunch of jobs instead of reducing benefits. Would they like that instead?

I think the whole reasoning behind cutting the union rights is to prevent them from mass striking to appose the benefits being cut. While I see this might be needed, I don't know how much I agree with how far he went with this. But then again, we aren't in the past anymore. How much are unions really needed besides a way to collectively bargain for more pay.

[Kuyuk]

Amazing. Walker is running the state like a business. The state is broke, so it has to cut back somewhere. Now where I work, when the bad economy hit, they did the same thing. I lost some benefits, but I knew it had to be done. Same with this. We can either cut spending or go bankrupt.

I personally, have no pity for them.

Although if they prefer, walker could just eliminate a bunch of jobs instead of reducing benefits. Would they like that instead?

I think the whole reasoning behind cutting the union rights is to prevent them from mass striking to appose the benefits being cut. While I see this might be needed, I don't know how much I agree with how far he went with this. But then again, we aren't in the past anymore. How much are unions really needed besides a way to collectively bargain for more pay.



This.

[Parkbandit]

Entitlement programs like the ones the union is fighting are nothing more than ponzi schemes... Eventually, you run out of money to pay the people who are in it.

[lightwellspam]

Entitlement programs like the ones the union is fighting are nothing more than ponzi schemes... Eventually, you run out of money to pay the people who are in it.

The stock market is a ponzi scheme as well.

[lightwellspam]

Clearly, chaos theory is at play here



yup

[Alfster]

The fact that unions would have have to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5.6% into their retirement should be a blessing to them that they only have to now pay for their benefits, but they are not losing them.

What about the unions who decided to take no raises for multiple years so they could keep their benefits (in some cases, a pay decrease)?

I see both sides of the issue here. Both of my parents were teachers and a few of my friends are now. I just wonder when the shitty management teams are going to be held accountable. They agreed to these benefits 15 years ago, without thinking about how high the cost would rise. Shitty management decision led them to these problems...

[Alfster]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41635841#41635841

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I couldn't say I agree or disagree with the plan because I honestly don't know how the teachers are compensated (including benefits) compared to their peers and how the economy is squeezing their pay.

I will say I applaud any efforts to run the government like a business (in the sense of it's financials - budgets have to be balanced). All government employees should be reviewed annually for need/compensation, IMO.

Frankly if I was governator, I'd be on my way to firing/replacing all of those striking like Reagan did with the Air Traffic controlers.

[~Rocktar~]

yup

Clearly a moron is at play here. ^^

[ClydeR]

Pensions are going to be the big hot button budget issue in a lot of states now that Republicans are in charge of more governor offices. There's even a book (http://books.google.com/books?id=YAKl17H-RRkC) about it. And it's all because of unions.

So says Clyde.

When I'm right, I'm right. And I'm always right. I should start charging you people for the benefit of my predictions.


Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote.

More... (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-17-public-unions_N.htm)


The stakes are high nationwide. Wisconsin is the first in a long line of states considering big changes to pay, benefits, work rules and the bargaining power of government workers.

Ohio is next, voting soon on an equally dramatic limit on public employee rights. Arizona, Florida, Indiana, Iowa, New Hampshire, New Jersey and New Mexico are among the other states considering narrower changes in the government workforce.

"This has nothing to do with efficient or effective government," says Joe Rugola, head of Ohio's largest public employee union, the Association of Public School Employees. "It has everything to do with depriving working families of a voice."

The unions are at odds with a wave of Republican governors who want to cut benefits to help close budget shortfalls and restore management authority in the workplace.

[ClydeR]

Politically, there is a danger of energizing union voters for 2012.

[crb]

This fight is really about the health of the union, not about pay or benefits.

The law would stop the current practice of forced unionization of public employees. They would have to opt in. Additionally, they will have to pay union dues manually, as opposed to have it deducted from their paycheck.

This is going to fuck the unions as many people who do not agree with their political activism will opt out, and the people who opt in are probably going to opt out the second they need to pay a bill and they realize they have a choice NOT to send cash to the union bosses every pay period.

The end result will be the unions having to get much smaller. It means less benefits, pay, and perks, for the union leaders, and less money for Democratic Politicians in the state. So of course they're trying to rile up the masses to fight it. But it sounds like they're fucked because elections have consequences and WI just went all red.

I'm cheering it. Michigan also just went all red, maybe we'll follow suit.

[Warriorbird]

Right. It'll be totally awesome when even more damage gets done to the public school system so you can get your super cool private school only technique and remove education as a whole from the poor. Fun times.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Right. It'll be totally awesome when even more damage gets done to the public school system so you can get your super cool private school only technique and remove education as a whole from the poor. Fun times.

Ok Chicken Little.

[IorakeWarhammer]

why would they remove the poor's education when that indoctrinates them?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

why would they remove the poor's education when that indoctrinates them?

Yeah, what Habib said.

[Warriorbird]

Because they want to continue to defund government to the point of ineffectiveness so that they can profiteer off worse quality private alternatives (worse quality in this case means not serving everyone).

[ClydeR]

This fight is really about the health of the union, not about pay or benefits.

Ooselay ipslay inksay ipsshay. Ickstay otay ethay iptscray.

[Parkbandit]

Right. It'll be totally awesome when even more damage gets done to the public school system so you can get your super cool private school only technique and remove education as a whole from the poor. Fun times.

And the only way to stop the damage would be to give the Teachers union exactly what it demands.

[Rinualdo]

I hate this kind of childish politics by the Democrats. They lost, they don't have enough votes to stop it, so this kind of stunt serves no real purpose and certainly isn't democratic.
Let the vote happen and then run on a repeal platform next election cycle...

[Warriorbird]

And the only way to stop the damage would be to give the Teachers union exactly what it demands.

So... the demand to auto unionize every teacher? Probably too much. Collective bargaining as a whole? I'm not nearly so sure. We don't break up monopolies any more. It's just another interference with the free market that you, as a Republican, should support.

[Parkbandit]

I hate this kind of childish politics by the Democrats. They lost, they don't have enough votes to stop it, so this kind of stunt serves no real purpose and certainly isn't democratic.
Let the vote happen and then run on a repeal platform next election cycle...

Yea, I heard they ran away and hid. Too funny.

[Ardwen]

So the republicans dominated thestate elections in Wisconsin, and apparently have now ticked off the people that got them into office, somehow this doesnt bode well for the next election. This bill will apparently save the state 10 percent of its 3 billion dollar debt, Exactly what are they going to do for the other 90 percent?

[Tilnam]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116409154.html

946.12
946.12 Misconduct in public office. Any public officer or public employee who does any of the following is guilty of a Class I felony:

946.12(1)
(1) Intentionally fails or refuses to perform a known mandatory, nondiscretionary, ministerial duty of the officer's or employee's office or employment within the time or in the manner required by law

[Parkbandit]

So the republicans dominated thestate elections in Wisconsin, and apparently have now ticked off the people that got them into office, somehow this doesnt bode well for the next election. This bill will apparently save the state 10 percent of its 3 billion dollar debt, Exactly what are they going to do for the other 90 percent?

It's not likely that a large percentage of the Teachers Union voted for any of the Republicans.

And you don't believe that the government should save 300 million dollars?

[Warriorbird]

It's not likely that a large percentage of the Teachers Union voted for any of the Republicans.


I'm not sure the real punitive source of Republican education cuts will play well everywhere.

[Alfster]

Both of my parents are teachers, and I somewhat see their point. My mom will be retired before the bill goes in, so it won't affect her.

My father will still need to teach for another couple of years. He doesn't mind paying extra for his benefits, but he's worrying because he's the most senior teacher in the district who is maxed out on his pay. He costs the district the most money, so he's probably the first one to go...at least that's how he's looking at it. This is where the changes to collective bargaining hurt him the most. Seniority is out, which to some degree is fine. But having spent the last 35 years teaching, it's a huge change...which came in such a short amount of time. It's literally dividing the state and this issue is going to hurt the state in the longrun, regardless of the outcome.

What I don't understand about this entire thing is why they're okay with leaving policeman and firefighters unions intact, but essentially breaking up the rest. A chunk of the deficit that they're facing now is because Walker's first move in office was to give tax breaks to corporations. Doesn't make much sense.

[Alfster]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-best-protest-signs-at-the-wisconsin-capitol

Top 45 protester signs. Hilarious.

[Kuyuk]

http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal01/2011/2/17/17/enhanced-buzz-13731-1297980096-31.jpg

Wonder if she does anal too.

[diethx]

You are such a creep, dude.

[Tilnam]

I sometimes wonder if half of these protestors even know what they are protesting??

1) Unions were first created to prevent unsafe working conditions and to keep worker pay fair. With all the new laws in place in the last 100 years, are they really needed anymore?

2) Are they really protesting having their benefits cut, when they are still better than the average amount in the private sector??

3) Why is it only state workers go on mass strike and protesting when their benefits get placed more in line with everyone else? My company had benefits cut too because of the economy. There were no protests or strikes. Why do state workers feel they are exempt from this??

4) Do they realize that if benefits are not reduced, they will face mass layoffs instead? Which would they prefer?

[Kuyuk]

Unions are companies just like anything else. The more members it has working, the more they make.

If they need to spend a few thousand dollars to hire people to protest, they will, it helps them in the long run.

Not saying people in this protest were/are hired.

[4a6c1]

mubarak for governor. lololol.

those signs are great

[Parkbandit]

Both of my parents are teachers, and I somewhat see their point. My mom will be retired before the bill goes in, so it won't affect her.

My father will still need to teach for another couple of years. He doesn't mind paying extra for his benefits, but he's worrying because he's the most senior teacher in the district who is maxed out on his pay. He costs the district the most money, so he's probably the first one to go...at least that's how he's looking at it. This is where the changes to collective bargaining hurt him the most. Seniority is out, which to some degree is fine. But having spent the last 35 years teaching, it's a huge change...which came in such a short amount of time. It's literally dividing the state and this issue is going to hurt the state in the longrun, regardless of the outcome.

Isn't that how the rest of the world does it though? Where pay isn't based upon seniority, but on merit? What is going to hurt the state in the long run is to simply keep doing business as usual...



What I don't understand about this entire thing is why they're okay with leaving policeman and firefighters unions intact, but essentially breaking up the rest. A chunk of the deficit that they're facing now is because Walker's first move in office was to give tax breaks to corporations. Doesn't make much sense.

That's a political move by the Republicans to gain support of this measure. I agree though, it's stupid.

And giving tax breaks to corporations is a good move, IMO... depending on what your current tax rate is. You can lure companies to relocate to Wisconsin from neighboring states and hopefully stop companies from leaving. We're doing the same thing in Florida.

[Cephalopod]

That's a political move by the Republicans to gain support of this measure. I agree though, it's stupid.

And giving tax breaks to corporations is a good move, IMO... depending on what your current tax rate is. You can lure companies to relocate to Wisconsin from neighboring states and hopefully stop companies from leaving. We're doing the same thing in Florida.

Is it necessarily a good idea when those tax breaks take a state from a budget surplus (which Wisconsin had) to a deficit?

Also, the reason firefighters and police unions are protected may have to do with the fact that they were the only unions that supported Walker in his election; or I could just be cynical.

[Parkbandit]

Is it necessarily a good idea when those tax breaks take a state from a budget surplus (which Wisconsin had) to a deficit?

I don't know much about Wisconsin, but I think you would have a difficult time blaming all their economic woes solely on tax breaks to companies.



Also, the reason firefighters and police unions are protected may have to do with the fact that they were the only unions that supported Walker in his election; or I could just be cynical.

I would have no problem with believing that at all... it's much like Obama's defense of the unions over his time in the office.. they were a big voting block for him.

[Gan]

Is it necessarily a good idea when those tax breaks take a state from a budget surplus (which Wisconsin had) to a deficit?

What was the legislature's goal for the tax breaks? Was it to lure more companies (and more jobs) to come to Wisconsin? To keep existing companies (and jobs) in Wisconsin who were considering moving to states with lower tax rates?
Was this tax cut successful? Too soon to tell?

And simple rules of accounting should have applied at that time in that if you are going to cut revenue in one area then you should need to cut spending in another to offset the imbalance. Why can't politicians figure this out?

[Parkbandit]

What was the legislature's goal for the tax breaks? Was it to lure more companies (and more jobs) to come to Wisconsin? To keep existing companies (and jobs) in Wisconsin who were considering moving to states with lower tax rates?
Was this tax cut successful? Too soon to tell?

And simple rules of accounting should have applied at that time in that if you are going to cut revenue in one area then you should need to cut spending in another to offset the imbalance. Why can't politicians figure this out?

CUT SPENDING!? BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!!??????

[Rinualdo]

And giving tax breaks to corporations is a good move, IMO... depending on what your current tax rate is. You can lure companies to relocate to Wisconsin from neighboring states and hopefully stop companies from leaving. We're doing the same thing in Florida.

The inverse of this is Texas, where its unfavorable laws, specifically regarding collecting sales tax, is causing Amazon to leave the state in favor of Oklahoma.

Boeing came to South Carolina and I think Apple went to North Carolina for a production plant for the same thing.

[pabstblueribbon]

Is this going to affect cheese prices?

I really like cheese.

[Cephalopod]

I don't know much about Wisconsin, but I think you would have a difficult time blaming all their economic woes solely on tax breaks to companies.


When Walker took office, there was a projected budget surplus. He pushed through a series of corporate tax breaks and spending (http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html), generating a budget deficit.



To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

...

“Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special-interest spending that includes:

“• $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs.

“• $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants.

“• $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at best the benefit provided to ‘job creators’ would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day.”

[Cephalopod]

What was the legislature's goal for the tax breaks? Was it to lure more companies (and more jobs) to come to Wisconsin? To keep existing companies (and jobs) in Wisconsin who were considering moving to states with lower tax rates?
Was this tax cut successful? Too soon to tell?

See my response to PB. They aren't flat corporate tax breaks -- it's a series of spending and tax manipulation that has dubious proposed effects.

He generated the budget deficit and is now using an emergency budget bill to 'plug' the hole he made. Even large parts of the 'plug' have nothing to do with balancing the budget again.

This has nothing to do with job creation or fiscal sanity and everything to do with paying back the interests that got him elected.

[Parkbandit]

When Walker took office, there was a projected budget surplus. He pushed through a series of corporate tax breaks and spending (http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html), generating a budget deficit.

I don't have the capability to check on this site or it's claims, but I sure don't see 3 billion dollars worth of debt there... which has been the claim since this began.

I smell fuzzy math.

[Cephalopod]

I don't have the capability to check on this site or it's claims, but I sure don't see 3 billion dollars worth of debt there... which has been the claim since this began.

I smell fuzzy math.



"Walker said at a news conference Monday that the benefit cuts were essential to balancing the state's budget, which faces a shortfall of $137 million this year and up to $3.6 billion over the next two years. The other changes to the state's collective bargaining laws are needed to give public workers more choice, he said."


There was a budget surplus for this year's budget, which was erased by Walker. Walker is now trying to fill the hole he generated, but claiming he's doing it for help with the projected $3.6b hole over the next two years. The issue is that the bill that he's proposing doesn't go anywhere near that, which is why this has nothing to do with fiscal sanity.

[Cephalopod]

To follow up, Wisconsin like every other state needs to take care of their budget deficits. Pretty much every state right now needs to cut spending in every direction and run much leaner.

What Walker is proposing here is just a stunt, and it's been predicated on a problem he created for this year.

[Parkbandit]

The inverse of this is Texas, where its unfavorable laws, specifically regarding collecting sales tax, is causing Amazon to leave the state in favor of Oklahoma.

Boeing came to South Carolina and I think Apple went to North Carolina for a production plant for the same thing.

It's a big balancing act states have to play with companies... taxing them enough to make revenue for the state's expenses vs keeping them competitive enough to where a state like Oklahoma won't steal the companies from you. It was a smart move by Oklahoma... and a dumb move by Texas.

[Cephalopod]

Also, you know that $3.6b figure that Walker is working against?

I wonder if that has anything to do with the $3,944,239,600 projected NEW AGENCY SPENDING (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-13%20Budget/Agency%20Request/table1.pdf) for the 2011-2013 budgets. Projected, because the legislature hasn't approved it.

Seems like a pretty simple way to balance the next two years of budgets might be to, I don't know... NOT increase the spending?

[Parkbandit]

There was a budget surplus for this year's budget, which was erased by Walker. Walker is now trying to fill the hole he generated, but claiming he's doing it for help with the projected $3.6b hole over the next two years. The issue is that the bill that he's proposing doesn't go anywhere near that, which is why this has nothing to do with fiscal sanity.

The 3.6 billion dollar deficit isn't because of what Walker has done in 6 weeks, which was my point. Hopefully, the changes he is making now will help cut into that deficit for next year by growing employment, broadening his tax base which will increase revenue to the state. 3.6 billion though.. sounds like there's more painful cutting to do.

I'm happy I live in a state where we require, through our Constitution, that the budget needs to be balanced.

[Rinualdo]

Idiotic and childish, but this (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-dem-senator-posts-brb-message-on-facebook.php) still made me lol.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Also, you know that $3.6b figure that Walker is working against?

I wonder if that has anything to do with the $3,944,239,600 projected NEW AGENCY SPENDING (http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-13%20Budget/Agency%20Request/table1.pdf) for the 2011-2013 budgets. Projected, because the legislature hasn't approved it.

Seems like a pretty simple way to balance the next two years of budgets might be to, I don't know... NOT increase the spending?

Did you see in the document that you linked, that $299,161,100 of it is Public Instruction? $560,093,900 is University of Wisconsin System? $78,786,200 Higher Education Aids Board?

Not sure what those are, exactly, but they look like government jobs.

And don't forget the $2,436,088,600 in Health Services.

[Cephalopod]

Did you see in the document that you linked, that $299,161,100 of it is Public Instruction? $560,093,900 is University of Wisconsin System?

Not sure what those are, exactly, but they look like government jobs.

Yep, $560m in new UW spending that has not yet been approved. Clearly the way to address that spending is to strip rights from these government employees, but leave in-tact the union rights of government employees that supported you.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

And regards the 14 Democrats who left the state grandstanding, I hope they get into legal trouble and/or lose their elected positions. I don't give a shit if they replace them with more Democrats, but do the job you were elected to do.

[Cephalopod]

And regards the 14 Democrats who left the state grandstanding, I hope they get into legal trouble and/or lose their elected positions. I don't give a shit if they replace them with more Democrats, but do they job you were elected to do.

I know, marching out to prevent a quorum so votes can't happen. That's like filibustering every bill or nominee that comes up simply to prevent votes from happening.

[Rinualdo]

And regards the 14 Democrats who left the state grandstanding, I hope they get into legal trouble and/or lose their elected positions. I don't give a shit if they replace them with more Democrats, but do the job you were elected to do.

Its another in a string of ridiculous tactics used by both parties.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I know, marching out to prevent a quorum so votes can't happen. That's like filibustering every bill or nominee that comes up simply to prevent votes from happening.

Which I'm ok with, because it's doing their job. If they all filibustered for 6 months I couldn't give a shit. But taking your toys and leaving the state isn't doing that.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I know, marching out to prevent a quorum so votes can't happen. That's like filibustering every bill or nominee that comes up simply to prevent votes from happening.

And I'm curious. Are you saying you are ok with this? That any party could simply stop the government by simply not showing up at all?

It's complete bullshit to me. Even if there was only 1 democrat in the whole state, they should show up and "fight the good fight" for the people the represent. Not abandon their job and expect no consequences.

[Parkbandit]

Idiotic and childish, but this (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-dem-senator-posts-brb-message-on-facebook.php) still made me lol.

I wish I didn't laugh... but I did.

[Cephalopod]

And I'm curious. Are you saying you are ok with this? That any party could simply stop the government by simply not showing up at all?


No, I'm not okay with it. It's a pussy move because they know they can't win. I may not like the proposal, but it deserves to be voted on even if they don't agree with the outcome.

My linkage to filibusters is just that it accomplishes the same thing as this 'walk-out and hide': thwarting the will of the elected majority by having as little as one person stand in the way. With the way the rules are now, they don't even have to be present.

[~Rocktar~]

My linkage to filibusters is just that it accomplishes the same thing as this 'walk-out and hide': thwarting the will of the elected majority by having as little as one person stand in the way. With the way the rules are now, they don't even have to be present.

No it doesn't. By definition, if done in the original way, a filibuster must eventually end because the person speaking is going to stop or pass out. They do all nice nice things and say a bill is being filibustered and set it aside in order to move on with other things so no one has to get up there and speak on it.

This walk out thing takes no guts and is a cop out. If you can't even get up and speak about something for a couple hours to get on the news media in a filibuster then why the hell are you up there any way? Vote the loser babies out for not doing their fucking job.

[crb]

Right. It'll be totally awesome when even more damage gets done to the public school system so you can get your super cool private school only technique and remove education as a whole from the poor. Fun times.
I have no problem with publicly funded education when the dollars go to ununionized charter schools that compete with one another for effectiveness and where administrators are free to making staffing decisions that they feel will best help the education of children.

I just hate fucking teachers unions.

And if students need to be taught by union labor to learn well, then why are charter schools pretty much always better?

This isn't about defunding public schools, it is about defunding bloated, abusive, corrupt, public unions.

[Rinualdo]

No it doesn't. By definition, if done in the original way, a filibuster must eventually end because the person speaking is going to stop or pass out. They do all nice nice things and say a bill is being filibustered and set it aside in order to move on with other things so no one has to get up there and speak on it.

This walk out thing takes no guts and is a cop out. If you can't even get up and speak about something for a couple hours to get on the news media in a filibuster then why the hell are you up there any way? Vote the loser babies out for not doing their fucking job.

You should probably wiki filibuster in the US Senate to clarify your misunderstanding.

[~Rocktar~]

You should probably wiki filibuster in the US Senate to clarify your misunderstanding.

You should probably go back to the original definition whereby the person has to get up and speak about the bill being considered and continue speaking, non-stop in order to be considered a filibuster. Which is what I clearly spoke about.

[Cephalopod]

You should probably go back to the original definition whereby the person has to get up and speak about the bill being considered and continue speaking, non-stop in order to be considered a filibuster. Which is what I clearly spoke about.

That has nothing to do with the current senate rules regarding filibusters, which is what I was referring to. If we still followed the 'original rules' and people still had to sit and read the phone book until they were blue in the face, there'd be a much larger disconnect between the usage of filibusters and this quorum-prevention-by-hiding.

[~Rocktar~]

That has nothing to do with the current senate rules regarding filibusters, which is what I was referring to. If we still followed the 'original rules' and people still had to sit and read the phone book until they were blue in the face, there'd be a much larger disconnect between the usage of filibusters and this quorum-prevention-by-hiding.

And I clearly differentiated the two in my original post on the matter.

[TheEschaton]

So you agree, your post about the "original rules" of filibusters, which aren't in effect any more and thus irrelevant, was pointless and meant nothing?

[pabstblueribbon]

Man I love cheese.

[~Rocktar~]

So you agree, your post about the "original rules" of filibusters, which aren't in effect any more and thus irrelevant, was pointless and meant nothing?

Nice non-sequitur there. The rules are in effect and can still be used, they just aren't. We can all agree that your over all contribution to this thread has completely lived up to the standards you have sent in myriad other threads. That is to say, you have contributed and continue to contribute nothing of value while living in your imaginary reality where armed criminals invading your house will be dissuaded from violence if you talk to them rationally.

[Latrinsorm]

The 3.6 billion dollar deficit isn't because of what Walker has done in 6 weeks, which was my point.What are you basing this on?

[Parkbandit]

What are you basing this on?

What are you basing your belief that is on?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

What are you basing this on?


What are you basing your belief that is on?

What are you basing your belief that is on, is on?

[Parkbandit]

It depends what your definition of "is" is.

Wait, what?

[Cephalopod]

It depends what your definition of "is" is.

Wait, what?

Are we discussing profits or income?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Are we discussing profits or income?

I like turtles.

[Latrinsorm]

What are you basing your belief that is on?I take no position on the matter, so I cannot answer your loaded question. You have clearly taken a position on the matter, and I am curious how you arrived at it.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I take no position on the matter, so I cannot answer your loaded question. You have clearly taken a position on the matter, and I am curious how you arrived at it.

What position has he clearly taken?

[Latrinsorm]

The position that "[t]he 3.6 billion dollar deficit isn't because of what Walker has done in 6 weeks".

[Warriorbird]

I have no problem with publicly funded education when the dollars go to ununionized charter schools that compete with one another for effectiveness and where administrators are free to making staffing decisions that they feel will best help the education of children.

I just hate fucking teachers unions.

And if students need to be taught by union labor to learn well, then why are charter schools pretty much always better?

This isn't about defunding public schools, it is about defunding bloated, abusive, corrupt, public unions.

Charter schools have no testing obligations or special education obligations. When tested on the NAEP, they typically suck. The illusion of competition does nothing except let people fuck the poor even more.

[Alfster]

Isn't that how the rest of the world does it though? Where pay isn't based upon seniority, but on merit? What is going to hurt the state in the long run is to simply keep doing business as usual...



That's a political move by the Republicans to gain support of this measure. I agree though, it's stupid.

And giving tax breaks to corporations is a good move, IMO... depending on what your current tax rate is. You can lure companies to relocate to Wisconsin from neighboring states and hopefully stop companies from leaving. We're doing the same thing in Florida.

I argue with my parents all the time about unions. I'm in management and I hate unions. I believe in pay based off of merit over seniority.

The problem for me is creating a deficit through extra spending, and using that deficit as a reason to take away the rights of unions. Leaving certain unions as is and going after other ones is not something that I can agree with.

The same unions that he's not going after are the ones who supported him in his election.

This whole thing is a huge mess and it's not going away. I'm just glad that in the area that I'm in, none of the schools have been canceled, and the teachers are still going to work. Last I heard, 8 school districts in the entire state have had school canceled because of teachers calling in. Reading the headlines, I'd think it's the whole state.

[Alfster]

And I had to laugh at Fox news today, as they said, "All the protesters are wearing communist red".

They do know that Madison is home of UW-Wisconsin, who's colors happen to be...red.

Jesus, I hate the media.

[pabstblueribbon]

I meant to post this here.

Not long ago I was at a pilot program meeting for union pacific railroad. I got to sit in a mini union meeting about right to work versus seniority based. Many in the training course we were putting on wanted it to be a combination of seniority and ability to do the job. Passing certain tests, qualifications, ecetera.

However, the union refused anything but seniority, and many who were on the other side knew what would happen if such a thing remained the way it had in the past.

Senior people would bid for the job, get it, be trained (which takes a fair amount of resources and money from UP) realize the increase in the amount of work and responsibilities would not make up for the pay increase, and would then bid out thus waisting time and resources.

End result? Contractors get hired and the job goes away because they cannot meet the timeline that the Feds have put in place to have this system up and running.

Another case of unions cutting off the nose to spite the face.


*right to work isn't the correct nomenclature but I'm busy so get fucked.

[Alfster]

http://vimeo.com/20089255

Interesting video that my friends boyfriend made.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I argue with my parents all the time about unions. I'm in management and I hate unions. I believe in pay based off of merit over seniority.

The problem for me is creating a deficit through extra spending, and using that deficit as a reason to take away the rights of unions. Leaving certain unions as is and going after other ones is not something that I can agree with.

The same unions that he's not going after are the ones who supported him in his election.

This whole thing is a huge mess and it's not going away. I'm just glad that in the area that I'm in, none of the schools have been canceled, and the teachers are still going to work. Last I heard, 8 school districts in the entire state have had school canceled because of teachers calling in. Reading the headlines, I'd think it's the whole state.

I won't disagree that if he's indeed avoiding the Unions who supported him (all of them) and only cutting into the Unions that didn't, that seems fishy. That said though... perhaps the Teacher's Union has the largest disparity in pay/benefits and that's why he picked it? Maybe the Firemen/Police etc are compensated equitably?

Who’s to say the press isn’t blowing it out of proportion and saying he’s only going after the Unions who supported him and in reality it’s just that he’s cutting into ONE of the Unions that didn’t support him? Like I said in a post before, it’s hard to comment on the cuts, without knowing how the Union pay/benefits compare to private pay/benefits for comparable jobs.
Personally I’d argue that the folks protesting have no idea what they are protesting and if it really is unjust or not – just that it somehow negatively impacts them or the Union (and the negative impact may really be nothing if they are indeed compensated a significant amount more than their private counterparts).
It could also be a vendetta against the Unions or those that didn’t support the Governor. Without something more significant than what the press is saying, it’s hard to say.

[Alfster]

When the local news first covered this last Thursday, they said that the reason he wasn't targeting law enforcement and firefighters was because Walker was concerned that the new bill would cause employees to quit their jobs, and they couldn't afford losing a large chunk of the policeman.

Like you said. No one really knows as it's impossible to find an unbiased source that's covering this.

And I fully agree that the majority of people have no idea why they're protesting. It is, aferall, Madison. Hippee central.

I just hope it stays peaceful. The protests are on state street, which is where all the college bars are. After huge football wins, halloween, and other holidays, there's almost always huge gatherings of people that turn violent. I've been in the middle of these in past years, and it seriously gets crazy there.

[Parkbandit]

Are we discussing profits or income?

Neither.

Not sure how you got that lost...

[Parkbandit]

I take no position on the matter, so I cannot answer your loaded question. You have clearly taken a position on the matter, and I am curious how you arrived at it.

Read the thread again... it's pretty easy to see who is responding to who.. because they are all quoted.

Confusion is a big part of your life, isn't it.

[Parkbandit]

I argue with my parents all the time about unions. I'm in management and I hate unions. I believe in pay based off of merit over seniority.

The problem for me is creating a deficit through extra spending, and using that deficit as a reason to take away the rights of unions. Leaving certain unions as is and going after other ones is not something that I can agree with.

The same unions that he's not going after are the ones who supported him in his election.

I don't care what reasoning he's coming up with... he didn't fuck with the Police or firefighter's union because they supported him in the election. It's bullshit.. but it's politics. It's the same reason why Obama is sticking his nose in this local issue.. he needs the union support and Wisconsin is a swing state he can't afford to lose in 2012.



This whole thing is a huge mess and it's not going away. I'm just glad that in the area that I'm in, none of the schools have been canceled, and the teachers are still going to work. Last I heard, 8 school districts in the entire state have had school canceled because of teachers calling in. Reading the headlines, I'd think it's the whole state.

Is it true that the teachers were busing students down to help with the protest?

[Alfster]

Maybe in Madison itself that might be true?

I'm further north, but as far as I know locally...that's not happening. There's so much misinformation running around that I can't say it's not happening elsewhere in the state.

Locally, there is one school where the high school students showed up to first hour and all walked out and protested in the parking lot. I don't believe the teachers coerced them, but who knows. If I were in high school, I'd use it as a reason to get out of school on a Friday.

The city workers here walked out on their jobs and protested all day. Huge snowstorm is forecasted for Saturday, so this could suck ballsack.

And apparently Jesse Jackson found a reason to show his face around Madison today, so I expect more stupid people to show up all weekend.

[Parkbandit]

And apparently Jesse Jackson found a reason to show his face around Madison today

It's called a camera and national attention. Now all he has to do is find a black man to make a victim out of and a white man to play the role of racist and it's a parade!!

[Alfster]

I'm sure he's got the racist pegged already. Scott Walker. All he needs to find is a black man who will lose his rights at work and he's good.

[Latrinsorm]

Personally I’d argue that the folks protesting have no idea what they are protesting and if it really is unjust or not – just that it somehow negatively impacts them or the Union (and the negative impact may really be nothing if they are indeed compensated a significant amount more than their private counterparts).Isn't this the invisible hand at work, though? People act out of their own selfish interests, and the aggregate impact is the most benefit for the society.
Read the thread again... it's pretty easy to see who is responding to who.. because they are all quoted.

Confusion is a big part of your life, isn't it.I wasn't asking who you were responding to. You made a factual statement, and I was asking what reasoning led you to that statement.

[Parkbandit]

I wasn't asking who you were responding to. You made a factual statement, and I was asking what reasoning led you to that statement.

Yea, I figured I was giving you too much credit to be able to actually go back and follow the thread. Here, I'll help you out Confucius.

Me: The Gov needs to balance the budget
Nacho: He passed these in his first weeks as governor:

“Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special-interest spending that includes:

“• $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs.

“• $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants.

“• $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at best the benefit provided to ‘job creators’ would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day.”


140 million doesn't equate to 3.6 billion deficit in 1 year...

[Warriorbird]

I have no problem with publicly funded education when the dollars go to ununionized charter schools that compete with one another for effectiveness and where administrators are free to making staffing decisions that they feel will best help the education of children.

I just hate fucking teachers unions.

And if students need to be taught by union labor to learn well, then why are charter schools pretty much always better?

This isn't about defunding public schools, it is about defunding bloated, abusive, corrupt, public unions.

Except they don't compete. They largely exist as single area monopolies and when they actually are subjected to testing do miserably on NAEP. They can actively choose not to serve students with disabilities and special needs. They have this nasty tendency to go out of business after a few years. They're yet another example of privatization doing a crappy job.

[Latrinsorm]

Yea, I figured I was giving you too much credit to be able to actually go back and follow the thread. Here, I'll help you out Confucius.

Me: The Gov needs to balance the budget
Nacho: He passed these in his first weeks as governor:

“Since his inauguration in early January, Walker has approved $140 million in new special-interest spending that includes:

“• $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs.

“• $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants.

“• $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at best the benefit provided to ‘job creators’ would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day.”


140 million doesn't equate to 3.6 billion deficit in 1 year...No information has been posted that indicates where the projected 3.6 billion deficit for 2012 and 2013 came from. For someone who is so fond of denouncing statistics, you are surprisingly willing to accept that claim at face value.

I can see now that despite the certainty of your tone, you don't have any reasonable basis for your conclusion. I will look elsewhere.

[Carl Spackler]

I just hate fucking teachers unions.


They're pretty bad here in EL.

[Parkbandit]

No information has been posted that indicates where the projected 3.6 billion deficit for 2012 and 2013 came from. For someone who is so fond of denouncing statistics, you are surprisingly willing to accept that claim at face value.

I can see now that despite the certainty of your tone, you don't have any reasonable basis for your conclusion. I will look elsewhere.

You do realize that you have the capability to look stuff up for yourself, right? If you believe that Walker, in 6 weeks of him being Governor, is responsible for a 3.6 billion dollar deficit next year, maybe you should give us your facts? I'm going by his length of time in office, the total amount of the Wisconsin state budget and how slow governments are to enact spending legislation.

In the meantime, I'll simply realize you are just being your typical, confused little individual again and really have zero to actually contribute to any political conversation.

[Kembal]

Apparently, the unions agreed to all the financial concessions asked for in Walker's budget (and were willing to do so at the beginning of this whole debacle), as long as the provisions removing their right to collectively bargain were stripped out of the bill.

Walker refused to negotiate, and rejected their concessions, which kind of proves this whole thing isn't about the budget, he's more interested in breaking the unions.

Link to article: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_a05349be-3be1-11e0-b0a1-001cc4c002e0.html


Top leaders of two of Wisconsin's largest public employee unions announced they are willing to accept the financial concessions called for in Walker's plan, but will not accept the loss of collective bargaining rights.

Mary Bell, president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, and Marty Beil, executive director of AFSCME Council 24, said in a conference call with reporters that workers will do their fair share to narrow Wisconsin's budget gap.

Walker's plan calls for nearly all state, local and school employees to pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care premiums. That would save $30 million by June 30 and $300 million over the next two years, the governor has said.

The measure also would prohibit most unionized public employees, except local police and fire fighters and the State Patrol, from bargaining on issues besides wages. Wage hikes could be negotiated only if they don't exceed the consumer price index.

"We want to say loud and clear — it is not about those concessions," Bell said. "For my members, it's about retaining a voice in their professions."

The two insisted their positions have not changed and Friday's call was intended to clarify their opposition to Walker's proposal. Bell, who represents 98,000 educators, and Beil, whose council includes 60,000 members, repeated calls for Walker to sit down with them.

Senate Democrats also reached out to Walker, sending him a letter urging him to remove the bargaining provisions from his bill.

But Walker repeated that he would not back down.

As far as the Dems in the State Senate walking out, I believe they did it in order to force the Governor to negotiate instead of ramming the bill through. The Republicans tried to ram the bill through the State Assembly yesterday to prevent amendments to it, and did it in violation of parliamentary rules...they scheduled the vote for 5 pm and then opened the vote before 5 pm, while the Democrats were still in their caucus meeting. The Dems had to rush out of the meeting and demand a cancellation of the vote.

[prance1520]

The games these politicians are playing are rediculous. Can you imagine doing this at your job? I know I'd be asked to find another job if I walked out out of a meeting to solve a problem because it wasn't going my way.

[Warriorbird]

The games these politicians are playing are rediculous. Can you imagine doing this at your job? I know I'd be asked to find another job if I walked out out of a meeting to solve a problem because it wasn't going my way.

Corporate budgets don't have lobbyists though.

[4a6c1]

Fuck those teachers unions. Right in the eye.

[Warriorbird]

Fuck those teachers unions. Right in the eye.

And you can have those awesome Texas textbooks that omit Thomas Jefferson from American history to do it with.

[Kuyuk]

Sorry WB, teachers do not need unions to be worthwhile.

[4a6c1]

And you can have those awesome Texas textbooks that omit Thomas Jefferson from American history to do it with.

I concede! It is not singularly teachers unions that are ruining the lives of children but Texas books and teachers unions.

[Warriorbird]

Sorry WB, teachers do not need unions to be worthwhile.

The unions themselves are inefficient and problematic. In the wake of the decline of tenure they are one of the few remaining things still protecting academic freedom, however.

They also serve as a convenient distraction from most of the real issues with the nation's public schools and most of their critics really want to just profiteer off the remnants.

[Alfster]

I literally don't have any sources for this, but one of the things that the news started rambling about today was that (for whatever reason) the Federal laws that apply to workers do not apply at a state level, and if this bill passes, the federal work laws will not apply to state workers.

They'll have to go through courts to get the same rights as employees who are not state employees.

It might be pandering, but it's worth checking on. I'm too fucking lazy.

[Parkbandit]

Apparently, the unions agreed to all the financial concessions asked for in Walker's budget (and were willing to do so at the beginning of this whole debacle), as long as the provisions removing their right to collectively bargain were stripped out of the bill.


What were the provisions? I heard the big one the union opposed was that you don't have to join the union and that if you are in the union, you don't pay that from your paycheck, you how have to write a separate check out of your own account to pay for your union dues.

I wouldn't call that removing their right to collectively bargain.. more like removing them being forced to collectively bargain.

[Parkbandit]

I concede! It is not singularly teachers unions that are ruining the lives of children but Texas books and teachers unions.

:rofl:

Those fucking Texans!

[Kembal]

What were the provisions? I heard the big one the union opposed was that you don't have to join the union and that if you are in the union, you don't pay that from your paycheck, you how have to write a separate check out of your own account to pay for your union dues.

I wouldn't call that removing their right to collectively bargain.. more like removing them being forced to collectively bargain.

That's one of the provisions.

The second is requiring unions to hold an annual election every year to determine whether they still get to exist. (which would be cost-prohibitive, and seems to be aimed at draining union treasuries more than anything else) Along with this, union contracts would be for one year only.

The third is losing the ability to negotiate on anything except wages. (and on wages, there would be a ceiling tied to the growth in CPI) Pretty much there would be no such thing as collectively bargaining after that.

[Parkbandit]

That's one of the provisions.

The second is requiring unions to hold an annual election every year to determine whether they still get to exist. (which would be cost-prohibitive, and seems to be aimed at draining union treasuries more than anything else) Along with this, union contracts would be for one year only.

I doubt that the main goal with this is to drain union treasuries... given the amounts of money poured into elections.



The third is losing the ability to negotiate on anything except wages. (and on wages, there would be a ceiling tied to the growth in CPI) Pretty much there would be no such thing as collectively bargaining after that.

So, they would be treated like every other employee at most companies?

[Kembal]

I doubt that the main goal with this is to drain union treasuries... given the amounts of money poured into elections.

What? If the union has to spend money on an annual election determining its right to represent the employee group (politicians aren't even subject to annual elections), then there's obviously less money for the union to advocate for its positions in political elections. And considering all the unions targeted are solid supporters of the Democratic party (as opposed to the police and firefighters)...it's not hard to determine that bankrupting them would be the goal of a extremely partisan Republican governor.


So, they would be treated like every other employee at most companies?

The non-unionized ones. Which, I think, would be the normal objection of a unionized employee.

Again, Walker hasn't been able to point to near-term budgetary savings with any of these provisions. Including them in a budget repair bill (designed for fiscal emergencies) seems an abuse of the state budgetary process.

[Kuyuk]

That's one of the provisions.

The third is losing the ability to negotiate on anything except wages. (and on wages, there would be a ceiling tied to the growth in CPI) Pretty much there would be no such thing as collectively bargaining after that.


Damn, does that mean I could pay my union dishwasher (somewhere near) the same I'd pay a non union dishwasher?! (cost difference? about $5 hour)

[Kembal]

Damn, does that mean I could pay my union dishwasher (somewhere near) the same I'd pay a non union dishwasher?! (cost difference? about $5 hour)

Is your union dishwasher covered by Wisconsin state law regarding unions? Then yes.

Otherwise, no.

(The answer to your question is no. Private employers are covered by federal law.)

(And dishwashers are unionized? Ow.)

[Kuyuk]

Is your union dishwasher covered by Wisconsin state law regarding unions? Then yes.

Otherwise, no.

(The answer to your question is no. Private employers are covered by federal law.)

(And dishwashers are unionized? Ow.)



Nah, I know they're not in wisconsin.. but dreams are dreams!

All positions are union. From floor cleaners to lead line cooks. I have a very hard time understanding the benefits of a union, however, it may just be the contract I'm in, and not all..

For example, all employees are equal.. no matter if they're worthless or gold. If someone rocks out and goes above and beyond their job 400%, they still only get the contract raise. On the other side, the employee who is a pile, gets the same raise.

It's all based on how long they've been at the job... if someone has been here 10 years, cant cook, is a pain, etc, etc. And a new guy come in that kicks butt - when they sign for jobs, the new guy can get bumped into unemployment if someone with more seniority signs for the job.

I cant figure out how this is remotely beneficial to any company.

There's about 20 more points that make me go :confused:

[Warriorbird]

Nah, I know they're not in wisconsin.. but dreams are dreams!

All positions are union. From floor cleaners to lead line cooks. I have a very hard time understanding the benefits of a union, however, it may just be the contract I'm in, and not all..

For example, all employees are equal.. no matter if they're worthless or gold. If someone rocks out and goes above and beyond their job 400%, they still only get the contract raise. On the other side, the employee who is a pile, gets the same raise.

It's all based on how long they've been at the job... if someone has been here 10 years, cant cook, is a pain, etc, etc. And a new guy come in that kicks butt - when they sign for jobs, the new guy can get bumped into unemployment if someone with more seniority signs for the job.

I cant figure out how this is remotely beneficial to any company.

There's about 20 more points that make me go :confused:

None of your employees need protected from ideological agendas or religious wackos. There are no societal movements seeking to destroy your kitchen and demand that only chain restaurants exist.

You're thinking about it from a notion of your benefit too, versus theirs.

[Kuyuk]

None of your employees need protected from ideological agendas or religious wackos. There are no societal movements seeking to destroy your kitchen and demand that only chain restaurants exist.

You're thinking about it from a notion of your benefit too, versus theirs.

I think I'm thinking about it from all sides of the fence, and what I get out of it is this:

They want to get paid more, and have job security, for doing the bare minimum, and have no idea how much pressure their increased costs puts on their employer.

Show me a place that has a 50%+ labor cost and I'll show you a place that's probably not making any/much profit.

[Parkbandit]

What? If the union has to spend money on an annual election determining its right to represent the employee group (politicians aren't even subject to annual elections), then there's obviously less money for the union to advocate for its positions in political elections. And considering all the unions targeted are solid supporters of the Democratic party (as opposed to the police and firefighters)...it's not hard to determine that bankrupting them would be the goal of a extremely partisan Republican governor.

ZOMG HE'S EXTREME!!

I think it would cost less than you think.. and I believe they have more money than you are letting on.



The non-unionized ones. Which, I think, would be the normal objection of a unionized employee.

So, you are against this because then unionized workers would have no more power with companies than regular employees?



Again, Walker hasn't been able to point to near-term budgetary savings with any of these provisions. Including them in a budget repair bill (designed for fiscal emergencies) seems an abuse of the state budgetary process.

You seriously can't believe that a state will not save more money if the employees weren't unionized, can you?

[Parkbandit]

I cant figure out how this is remotely beneficial to any company.



Unions are not remotely beneficial to any company.

[Parkbandit]

I think I'm thinking about it from all sides of the fence, and what I get out of it is this:

They want to get paid more, and have job security, for doing the bare minimum, and have no idea how much pressure their increased costs puts on their employer.

Show me a place that has a 50%+ labor cost and I'll show you a place that's probably not making any/much profit.

You are turning into some people hating, racist, only care about Wall Street Republican.

[crb]

My biggest problem with public employee unions is the huge conflict of interest they create.

Union gives money to elect Democrats. Democrat then has to negotiate with the Union for contract while spending taxpayer money. Democrat knows that more money union has, more money Democrat has for next campaign. Democrat not spending his own money, he is spending our money. Negotiations go well for union.

When you have a case like GM caving to their union and being overly generous, I don't care as much (prior to their bailout, I care more now) because they're a private (in the nongovernmental sense) company and if they want to make bad fiscal decisions that will affect their health in the future, it is their problem (now partly our problem, which is why I now care).

Public unions though, the liabilities they create for governments are the direct responsibility of taxpayers.

[~Rocktar~]

The unions themselves are inefficient and problematic. In the wake of the decline of tenure they are one of the few remaining things still protecting academic freedom, however.

How do you support the claim that unions protect academic freedom? The NEA has been the largest roadblock to school reform, modernizing classroom instruction, even attempting those new (mush headed and moronic for some, quite effective for others) teaching methods and keeping ineffective and destructive teachers employed. How is this, in any way, "protecting academic freedom" other than the freedom to be RIP (retired in place)?

There are plenty of universities and colleges out there that are privately funded and maintain "academic freedom" on campus, both for the extreme right and the extreme left. It is not the place of public schools to support academic freedom in the way that a university does, it is their job to teach our kids in the most effective way possible to produce the best and most capable graduates possible in a cost effective manner. And frankly, in general, they are failing on all 3 fronts.

[Alfster]

Explain how allowing non-certified teachers to teach classes would be beneficial to the state. Would this be protecting our students?

Oh yah, this is part of his bill too.

[~Rocktar~]

Explain how allowing non-certified teachers to teach classes would be beneficial to the state. Would this be protecting our students?

Oh yah, this is part of his bill too.

So if you get a certificate it means you are a good teacher?

How about the ones that have tenure that have molested, raped, had sex with, done drugs in the classroom and so on?

[droit]

So if you get a certificate it means you are a good teacher?

How about the ones that have tenure that have molested, raped, had sex with, done drugs in the classroom and so on?

Sure. Not all certified teachers are good, but are you claiming that in general, uncertified (and potentially untrained) teachers are equally as good or better than certified ones?

[~Rocktar~]

Sure. Not all certified teachers are good, but are you claiming that in general, uncertified (and potentially untrained) teachers are equally as good or better than certified ones?

Where did I claim that?

[Warriorbird]

I think I'm thinking about it from all sides of the fence, and what I get out of it is this:

They want to get paid more, and have job security, for doing the bare minimum, and have no idea how much pressure their increased costs puts on their employer.

Show me a place that has a 50%+ labor cost and I'll show you a place that's probably not making any/much profit.

What does profit benefit them? Also, should "profit" be the motivator in schools?

[Warriorbird]

My biggest problem with public employee unions is the huge conflict of interest they create.

Union gives money to elect Democrats. Democrat then has to negotiate with the Union for contract while spending taxpayer money. Democrat knows that more money union has, more money Democrat has for next campaign. Democrat not spending his own money, he is spending our money. Negotiations go well for union.

When you have a case like GM caving to their union and being overly generous, I don't care as much (prior to their bailout, I care more now) because they're a private (in the nongovernmental sense) company and if they want to make bad fiscal decisions that will affect their health in the future, it is their problem (now partly our problem, which is why I now care).

Public unions though, the liabilities they create for governments are the direct responsibility of taxpayers.

You've already said that you want public schools destroyed. If unions supported Republicans you'd probably be all for them. I see unions as standing against the shitty privatization represented by charter schools. Some things should actually be public.

Sure, in this nice fantasy world charter schools are just like non charter private schools. The reality is that they're not very much alike at all.

[Kembal]

ZOMG HE'S EXTREME!!

I think it would cost less than you think.. and I believe they have more money than you are letting on.

Having done research on the subject in college, I know it costs quite a bit. Certification campaigns are expensive, especially when the NLRB is not involved. (as it is the case here)



So, you are against this because then unionized workers would have no more power with companies than regular employees?

In the public sector environment, you're more likely to be mismanaged due to political considerations. (there's no profit motivation as an overriding concern.) This is a significant agency problem, which is why public sector unions do have a role. (can they have too strong a role? yes.)


You seriously can't believe that a state will not save more money if the employees weren't unionized, can you?

There's no empirical data to support that. See Texas, which is a right to work state. It's in a worse budget hole than Wisconsin.

Also, hilariously, the state troopers have rescinded any support for the governor. Seems they didn't like being exempted. Link: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/labor-pains-pro-walker-troopers-union-repudiates-endorsement-in-wisconsin.php

[Kuyuk]

Unions are not remotely beneficial to any company.

I had to read this several times to make sure we actually agreed on something and I wasn't missing something...

[Stanley Burrell]

I like the union; when I was employed, I wasn't a union member. And my then-employer looks after its employees -- and usually knew about 3 days ahead of time when the city inspector would show up and try to unionize everyone or fire people. So, because of good information, all the non-unionized people got the day off, with pay. Because this is America, fuck yeah.

Edit: And on the flipside, people who thought computers were infected with ghosts got to keep their job because I wasn't around for a pay + skill comparison.

Hey, who investigates the Union inspectors? Never even thought about that.

[Parkbandit]

Because your party (and you can try to dodge this but it is your party) thinks up awesome ideas like banning evolution and removing the Founding Fathers.

:rofl:

Whut?

[Warriorbird]

:rofl:

Whut?

Do some research.

[Parkbandit]

You've already said that you want public schools destroyed. If unions supported Republicans you'd probably be all for them. I see unions as standing against the shitty privatization represented by charter schools. Some things should actually be public.

I can't speak for crb, but even if unions voted in blocks for Republicans, I wouldn't all for them. They go against my personal principle of personal responsibility.



Sure, in this nice fantasy world charter schools are just like non charter private schools. The reality is that they're not very much alike at all.

Why are unions so against private schools? Because they are protecting students who would go to them?

[Parkbandit]

Do some research.

You made a stupid leap, I would like you to back it up.

PS - Before you start doing your google research, keep in mind that a few wackos does not represent an entire political party.

But seriously, do some research and come back with your results. Should be entertaining.

[Warriorbird]

Because they're protecting their members. Teachers do much worse for themselves in a charter school setting and there's no actual testing benefits. Charter schools also have a nasty habit of flat out closing and then really fucking communities.



But seriously, do some research and come back with your results. Should be entertaining.

I asked first. Sorry.

[~Rocktar~]

Because your party (and you can try to dodge this but it is your party) thinks up awesome ideas like banning evolution and removing the Founding Fathers.

Really, and the Republican party has a monopoly on dumb fuck ideas in education? Keeping in mind the idea that I have often and vocally said they need to be Conservative, not religious fruit loops and focus on economic and social conservatism while telling the religious extreme to get over it since they often do more damage than good.

By the way, is this the same intellectual freedom that has schools teaching Socialism as a preferred way to live, getting rid of grades and competition as well as actually failing students because it might hurt their feelings? Keep in mind, I have dealt with the "Rubric" grading system and when it goes from 1-4, then in my mind as well as most others, when my step-daughter would say "I got a 3" she would wonder why I would not be all that happy. Scoring at most 75% is adequate, not good.

Now I do agree the whole banning evolution thing is retarded though I am not real sure where you get the banning Founding Fathers argument. I would like to ban things like removal of grades, passing kids that can't do basic skills and the ability of parents to prevent basic discipline measures from being used on their kids because it might hurt their little feelings. I also think the idea of not kicking the little bastards out when they commit crimes or become decisive behavior problems is also retarded.

[Warriorbird]

Examples please. Now I'm gonna pretend to be Parkbandit.

The Thomas Jefferson removal bit is out of Texas, to help with your Googling.

[Parkbandit]

There's no empirical data to support that. See Texas, which is a right to work state. It's in a worse budget hole than Wisconsin.

Seriously? That's your best reasoning.. because Texas has a bigger budget hole than Wisconsin?

Do you believe that union members are paid more than non-union members in similar jobs? Do you believe that paying union members more than non-union members might cost a state more?

Your defense of unions is pretty weak.

[Warriorbird]

Seriously? That's your best reasoning.. because Texas has a bigger budget hole than Wisconsin?

Do you believe that union members are paid more than non-union members in similar jobs? Do you believe that paying union members more than non-union members might cost a state more?

Your defense of unions is pretty weak.

You still haven't come up with how cutting budgets is going to improve schools. Unless of course you're seeking to promote the statistically poor charter school system so you can buy stock too.

[Parkbandit]

Because they're protecting their members. Teachers do much worse for themselves in a charter school setting and there's no actual testing benefits. Charter schools also have a nasty habit of flat out closing and then really fucking communities.

I asked first. Sorry.

You asked first? Did you just graduate to the 3rd grade?

You made a very stupid claim that you and I both know you can't back up. Let's just chalk it up to you being WB once again.. and let it go.

[Parkbandit]

Examples please. Now I'm gonna pretend to be Parkbandit.

You can't pretend to be intelligent.. it doesn't work for someone as dumb as you. Sorry.



The Thomas Jefferson removal bit is out of Texas, to help with your Googling.

So, because Texas removed something that Thomas Jefferson said or did, that is how you are painting an entire political party?

You are a fucking dipshit. Plain and simple.

[Parkbandit]

You still haven't come up with how cutting budgets is going to improve schools. Unless of course you're seeking to promote the statistically poor charter school system so you can buy stock too.

W-T-F are you even talking about now?

I think you're having a mental breakdown at this point.

[Warriorbird]

You asked first? Did you just graduate to the 3rd grade?

You made a very stupid claim that you and I both know you can't back up. Let's just chalk it up to you being WB once again.. and let it go.

Uh...

Right.

The real answer is your ad nauseum repetition of "SOURCES, DURP, DURP." when you haven't read anything on the subject.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_evolution_hearings

Two entire states = isolated wackos.

Now's the bit where you stuff your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes about your party again.

EDIT:

Wisconsin Unions 02-21-2011 12:01 AM durp durp

And I'm sorry you're bothered by what your party does.

[Jack]

There's a good friend of mine who's now working at a refinery in Baytown, TX. Pretty much everyone belongs to a union at the plant. So he was working a day shift, and his relief finally shows up an hour late, and hammered ass drunk. They took him down to the security building, and had him blow in a breathalizer. He blew a .29. They terminated him then and there, and that should be the end of the story. Well, it isn't the end because he was a member of the Union, and the Union lawyers got involved, and after three weeks of negotiating the guy is unfired, and recieves back pay for the three weeks he wasn't working. Good job union?

[Warriorbird]

There's a good friend of mine who's now working at a refinery in Baytown, TX. Pretty much everyone belongs to a union at the plant. So he was working a day shift, and his relief finally shows up an hour late, and hammered ass drunk. They took him down to the security building, and had him blow in a breathalizer. He blew a .29. They terminated him then and there, and that should be the end of the story. Well, it isn't the end because he was a member of the Union, and the Union lawyers got involved, and after three weeks of negotiating the guy is unfired, and recieves back pay for the three weeks he wasn't working. Good job union?

On topic anecdote.

http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/MULTIPLE_CHOICE_CREDO.pdf

While I'm sure that everyone could paint 'those evil unions' at fault for all sorts of problems in their non school workplace, the current favored conservative (and Arne Duncan backs them too) alternative to the public schools does not seem to work that much better.

Given that the union actually agreed to all the funding cuts here it's clear that Walker just wants an excuse to slam collective bargaining. Anecdotes on how dis-empowered working types got a better deal due to not joining a union might be more relevant. There aren't many times that'd protect them more though.

[Parkbandit]

Uh...

Right.

The real answer is your ad nauseum repetition of "SOURCES, DURP, DURP." when you haven't read anything on the subject.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_evolution_hearings

Two entire states = isolated wackos.

Now's the bit where you stuff your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes about your party again.

EDIT:

Wisconsin Unions 02-21-2011 12:01 AM durp durp

And I'm sorry you're bothered by what your party does.

OK, just so I can follow your stupidity:

You made this claim:


Because your party thinks up awesome ideas like banning evolution and removing the Founding Fathers.

And your best reasoning behind such an idiotic statement was:

1) Kansas made the change to textbooks using the term "theory" when talking about evolution and introduced "intelligent design" as an alternative theory. In your mind, EVOLUTION BANNED!!!

2) Texas excluded Thomas Jefferson on the list of people who wrote inspirational works which brought about public opinion for revolution. In your mind FOUNDING FATHERS REMOVED!!!

And now, you believe that the Republican Party is responsible for both of these changes. That these weren't isolated changes to textbooks, but some evil plan by the GOP?

I stand by my initial comment, you are a fucking dipshit.

[Parkbandit]

EDIT:

Wisconsin Unions 02-21-2011 12:01 AM durp durp

And I'm sorry you're bothered by what your party does.

And I hope you aren't pulling a Nikki here and blaming me for someone else negatively repping you.

[crb]

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Waiting_for_Superman/70129364?trkid=2361637#height2034

[~Rocktar~]

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Waiting_for_Superman/70129364?trkid=2361637#height2034

Can't see that without an account. I can guess that it is a link to the movie or the trailer for "Waiting for Superman" which you can read up about here:

http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_%22Superman%22

[Warriorbird]

Took you long enough, PB.

Maybe you can get through the ENTIRE Kansas document if you use a dictionary to help with the hard words.

I'm so proud you drew the wrong conclusion from the Texas stuff too.

Maybe with some more research you can have enough background knowledge to actually debate this issue, y'know, for your children's sake.

Were these somehow proposed by Democrats?

[AnticorRifling]

Every post should be single lines of text.

Fuck paragraphs.

I'm not a fan of what's going on with public education here in Indiana.

A bunch of teachers have been protesting, and I'm agreeing with them, the new proposed plan is pretty retarded.

A butterfly weeps.

[Parkbandit]

Took you long enough, PB.

Maybe you can get through the ENTIRE Kansas document if you use a dictionary to help with the hard words.

I'm so proud you drew the wrong conclusion from the Texas stuff too.

Maybe with some more research you can have enough background knowledge to actually debate this issue, y'know, for your children's sake.

Were these somehow proposed by Democrats?

Sorry you had to wait for my response, it must have been very painful for you.

I read what I needed to read: There was no banning of evolution, which you claimed.

Why don't you explain how that "Texas stuff" is "removing the Founding Fathers". Oh, you tried and failed. As usual.

My children are at a public school, being taught by shitty union teachers. You should be happy.

Again, show us some real evidence of Republicans "banning evolution" and "removing the Founding Fathers", because your last attempt was laughable and a gigantic failure.

[Warriorbird]

Sorry you had to wait for my response, it must have been very painful for you.

I read what I needed to read: There was no banning of evolution, which you claimed.

Why don't you explain how that "Texas stuff" is "removing the Founding Fathers". Oh, you tried and failed. As usual.

My children are at a public school, being taught by shitty union teachers. You should be happy.

Again, show us some real evidence of Republicans "banning evolution" and "removing the Founding Fathers", because your last attempt was laughable and a gigantic failure.

If you'd read with a slight level of detail evolution was completely banned from mention from 1999-2001.

It's funny how Republicans fucking up the education of two states doesn't count. With some effort and some of that reading stuff you can find even more examples. Some of the "Tea Party" education proposals are stunning.

[crb]

Hitler was a vegetarian.

Hitler hated jews.

All vegetarians must hate jews.




One thing I really dislike is the whole guilt by association thing that pervades modern politics. Some batshit crazy people don't believe in evolution, so that means their beliefs on economic policy and public employee compensation must be equally crazy, as are those who agree with them.

[Warriorbird]

Hitler was a vegetarian.

Hitler hated jews.

All vegetarians must hate jews.




One thing I really dislike is the whole guilt by association thing that pervades modern politics. Some batshit crazy people don't believe in evolution, so that means their beliefs on economic policy and public employee compensation must be equally crazy, as are those who agree with them.

Nah. It's more I

A. have seen the data on charter schools and it's pretty terrible

and

B. see what you see as employee compensation issue as protection from those wackos for people

Look at me ignoring a Godwin.

C. I think the get elected and immediately cut public schools (600 million education cuts 400 million surplus in VA?) strategy executed by a number of Republican governors is ridiculous.

[Kembal]

Sorry you had to wait for my response, it must have been very painful for you.

I read what I needed to read: There was no banning of evolution, which you claimed.

Why don't you explain how that "Texas stuff" is "removing the Founding Fathers". Oh, you tried and failed. As usual.

My children are at a public school, being taught by shitty union teachers. You should be happy.

Again, show us some real evidence of Republicans "banning evolution" and "removing the Founding Fathers", because your last attempt was laughable and a gigantic failure.

...the social conservatives on the Texas State Board of Education took out Thomas Jefferson because they didn't want to promote his saying of "separation of church and state". It passed on a 8 to 7 vote. (the Board had 5 Democrats, 7 social conservative Republicans, and 3 moderate Republicans. One of the moderates, Geraldine Miller, voted with the social conservatives for the change.)

That's documented in news articles from the time period. And, oh, I testified at the hearing where they made the change, in March 2010, so I was following it pretty intensely.

[Parkbandit]

So, they deleted Thomas Jefferson out of the school history books? Good to know.

I'm still waiting for how Republicans have "banned evolution". My kids tell me that they somehow learned about it. Must have been done through the secret underground...

If we're painting entire political parties with what a couple members do/say, I can paint a pretty picture of the Democratic Party.

Shall we play the stupid WB game once again?

[Warriorbird]

I'm still not quite getting how two entire states = a couple members.

[crb]

...the social conservatives on the Texas State Board of Education took out Thomas Jefferson because they didn't want to promote his saying of "separation of church and state". It passed on a 8 to 7 vote. (the Board had 5 Democrats, 7 social conservative Republicans, and 3 moderate Republicans. One of the moderates, Geraldine Miller, voted with the social conservatives for the change.)

That's documented in news articles from the time period. And, oh, I testified at the hearing where they made the change, in March 2010, so I was following it pretty intensely.

We just need to put libertarians in charge of everything. I think. No more stupid jesus republicans and stupid commie democrats.

[Parkbandit]

I'm still not quite getting how two entire states = a couple members.

I'm still not quite getting how a couple members = two entire states.

If you can't seriously see how stupid you are being, then there is really little we can discuss.

[Warriorbird]

I'm still not quite getting how a couple members = two entire states.

If you can't seriously see how stupid you are being, then there is really little we can discuss.

Keep sticking those fingers in your ears. We'll see how well the "Teachers didn't vote for me, let's cut education!" plans works out.

[Parkbandit]

Keep sticking those fingers in your ears. We'll see how well the "Teachers didn't vote for me, let's cut education!" plans works out.

Keep making retarded arguments.

http://educationvoodoo.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/anti-union.jpg

[Warriorbird]

Keep posting pictures. The rationalization is really strong with you.

[AnticorRifling]

I actually see it as:

If I focus on fucking over the teachers and their union then that's 1 teacher per class room that won't vote for me. But if I word it right it looks like I'm doing good and I'm not blaming the parents, that's 20+ parents per class room that will vote for me. Don't blame the parents, they vote! Also somewhere in there we should mention something about for and/or helping children that always works.

[Atlanteax]

Here's to hoping that the other 49 states follow Wisconsin's example, particularly if the entitlement reform successfully passes.

[lightwellspam]

uhhhwahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhh stop pointing out entire states which are my party's biggest bases talking about removing founding fathers and evolution, my party R smart smart smart!

.

we know

[Parkbandit]

I love taking cock up my ass.

We know

[Back]

Here's to hoping that the other 49 states follow Wisconsin's example, particularly if the entitlement reform successfully passes.

Just curious. What do you mean by “entitlement reform”?

PS. Does that include “right to work” states?

[lightwellspam]

This is a vote regarding the budget crisis. It should be about the budget crisis and meeting that shortfall. Strongarming a union collective bargaining agreement into the bill is childish and pure playing politics rather than addressing the issue at hand and resolving it. A real problem solver (aka, not parkbandit), would realize this as common sense.

[Parkbandit]

Just curious. What do you mean by “entitlement reform”?

PS. Does that include “right to work” states?

What entitlements do you attach to right to work states?

[Back]

What entitlements do you attach to right to work states?

I was asking Atlanteax, which I presume is pronounced Atlanta, but I can provide my reasoning for asking this question to you since you asked so nicely.

Seems to me that the concept of the “right to work” policy is inherently an entitlement concept. And to go even further, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness seems a bit entitled as well. Along with freedom for that matter.

[Parkbandit]

I was asking Atlanteax, which I presume is pronounced Atlanta, but I can provide my reasoning for asking this question to you since you asked so nicely.

Seems to me that the concept of the “right to work” policy is inherently an entitlement concept. And to go even further, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness seems a bit entitled as well. Along with freedom for that matter.

I'm pretty sure Atlanteax was describing the programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, pensions, etc.. as entitlement programs... which is why I was asking what those programs would have to do with a Right to Work state.

And I always pronounced his name like "Atlantoe".

[Back]

I'm pretty sure Atlanteax was describing the programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, pensions, etc.. as entitlement programs... which is why I was asking what those programs would have to do with a Right to Work state.

We have to define American entitlement at this point.

[Parkbandit]

We have to define American entitlement at this point.

I realizing you are trying your hardest to catch someone in some trap.. but for the life of me I don't have a clue what you are rambling about. Entitlement programs are Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment, etc...

If you want to call them Compassion Programs or Liberal Hearts Programs or Redistribution Programs... you go for it, but just because they are called "entitlement", doesn't mean that you should equate them to basic rights of "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".

[Back]

I realizing you are trying your hardest to catch someone in some trap.. but for the life of me I don't have a clue what you are rambling about. Entitlement programs are Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment, etc...

If you want to call them Compassion Programs or Liberal Hearts Programs or Redistribution Programs... you go for it, but just because they are called "entitlement", doesn't mean that you should equate them to basic rights of "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".

I appreciate that you think I am working hard for some nefarious purpose but I am simply asking a question. What is entitlement?

It may be semantics but seriously... Atlanteax may have made a blithe comment in passing as we all do at times. But I feel it does raise an even further point.

If one is against “entitlement” we need to know the definition of it and how far that extends to everyone. And we can speak in terms of Americans but ideally it should include all people on the planet. Right?

[Parkbandit]

You are caught up on the definition of a word and not thinking about the programs we call Entitlements. We're talking about the social programs I have listed before... not some obscure humanitarian theory.

[ClydeR]

When I'm right, I'm right. And I'm always right. I should start charging you people for the benefit of my predictions.

Yes, we were exactly right about that when we predicted it in November just days after the governor elections. And now it's spreading to Indiana (http://www.indystar.com/article/20110222/NEWS/110222004/House-Democrats-flee-Indiana-stop-votes), where legislators left the state to prevent a vote on anti-union legislation.

[Back]

You are caught up on the definition of a word and not thinking about the programs we call Entitlements. We're talking about the social programs I have listed before... not some obscure humanitarian theory.

You seem to want to pick a fight. All I am asking is what is the difference between something you pay into that you eventually benefit from and what is an inherent right?

[ClydeR]

If one is against “entitlement” we need to know the definition of it and how far that extends to everyone. And we can speak in terms of Americans but ideally it should include all people on the planet. Right?

First, American Exceptionalism.

Second, an entitlement is a government program that involves spending taxpayer money on poor or average people.

In Congresstalk, most entitlements don't have to be budgeted because people are entitled to them. But administration of entitlement programs is paid for by budgeted money. Therefore, if the government gets shut down, there will still be money for Social Security checks, but there won't be anybody to print or mail the checks.

[Parkbandit]

You seem to want to pick a fight.

I don't pick fights with unarmed opponents.



All I am asking is what is the difference between something you pay into that you eventually benefit from and what is an inherent right?

I think you are hung up on the term "entitlement".. and not the programs they are referring to. When we talk about Cadillac health plans, are you going to go into some nutball talk about everyone has a right to a nice automobile?

PS - Many Americans pay into these programs that will not eventually benefit from them.

[Back]

I think you are hung up on the term "entitlement".. and not the programs they are referring to. When we talk about Cadillac health plans, are you going to go into some nutball talk about everyone has a right to a nice automobile?

If that is the case then someone needs to use better language for their laughable cause. As far as Cadillacs go I only drive the Cadillac Margarita thank you very mucho.


PS - Many Americans pay into these programs that will not eventually benefit from them.

I’ve paid into Social Security and Medicare my whole working life - so you can bet your ass if you dissolve that now I’m going to be fucking pissed.

[Parkbandit]

If that is the case then someone needs to use better language for their laughable cause. As far as Cadillacs go I only drive the Cadillac Margarita thank you very mucho.

It was probably some liberal who thought it would help them sell their bullshit program. Like the "Fairness Doctrine" and "Net Neutrality" and "Progressive"... feel good words that make you feel good about shitty programs.



I’ve paid into Social Security and Medicare my whole working life - so you can bet your ass if you dissolve that now I’m going to be fucking pissed.

Hey.. we all have dreams. Yours is that social security and medicare will be there when you reach retirement age and are looking for a handout.

[Warriorbird]

Speaking of shitty programs


Right-to-work states do not have higher scores than states with strong unions. Actually, the states with the highest performance on national tests are Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Vermont, and New Hampshire, where teachers belong to unions that bargain collectively for their members.

[Back]

It was probably some liberal who thought it would help them sell their bullshit program. Like the "Fairness Doctrine" and "Net Neutrality" and "Progressive"... feel good words that make you feel good about shitty programs.

The fuck it was. Its banks wanting to get their fucking claws on our fucking money... again. You can just bend the fuck over on command but I wont.




Hey.. we all have dreams. Yours is that social security and medicare will be there when you reach retirement age and are looking for a handout.

We aren’t talking about dreamland. This is reality, flapjack. I pay a little bit over my lifetime into a system that brings me some benefit later when I retire. Does not sound extraordinarily outrageous.

[Back]

PS. You know what? Fuck you for calling Social Security a “handout”. Its an institution that Americans made. We all pay for it to help each other out.

If you have an idea that will improve upon it then you need to stop selling our efforts off to a rich minority.

[Alfster]

Jesus, who let fagnutslash ruin this thread?

[Parkbandit]

The fuck it was. Its banks wanting to get their fucking claws on our fucking money... again. You can just bend the fuck over on command but I wont.

That's not what I heard.. but let's keep your sexual experience out of this. How is the banks fucking clawing at your money again?



We aren’t talking about dreamland. This is reality, flapjack. I pay a little bit over my lifetime into a system that brings me some benefit later when I retire. Does not sound extraordinarily outrageous.

I thought that was what an IRA, 401K, savings account, etc... was for?

Oh, nevermind... you don't know how to be responsible for yourself.

I've paid into the system that I won't get any benefit from later on. So did my wife. That does sound extraordinarily outrageous to me.

[Parkbandit]

PS. You know what? Fuck you for calling Social Security a “handout”. Its an institution that Americans made. We all pay for it to help each other out.

It's an institution that Progressive Americans made. It's a terrible government program that isn't self sustaining.



If you have an idea that will improve upon it then you need to stop selling our efforts off to a rich minority.

Privatize it and increase retirement age to 70.

[Warriorbird]

It's an institution that Progressive Americans made. It's a terrible government program that isn't self sustaining.



Privatize it and increase retirement age to 70.

Because privatizing stuff works real well. With you on the 70 though.

[Parkbandit]

Because privatizing stuff works real well. With you on the 70 though.

Depends on the individual. My IRA has done extremely well over the years. Privatization isn't for everyone... people like Backlash require supervision and can't be trusted.

[Back]

Privatize it and increase retirement age to 70.

Thats where you and I differ. I will not bend over while Goldman Sachs and those Wall Street bastards fuck us. I am surprised you are so willing.

[lightwellspam]

who's going to build the cars, work in a supermarket, etc. or do any of the blue collar jobs if those jobs don't provide a living? That's a great society we can look forward to.

The higher up the ladder I've gotten, the less I've had to work, the more salary I've earned, and more importantly, the much larger bonus. But without the people working the lines and actually selling the product, non op costs don't exist.

But that aside, again, this is a budget crisis, and the unions have already caved to the compensation demands, they just want to keep their collective bargaining. The collective bargaining is currently afforded to them by the law. So, why not address that in another bill? why play politics in the current bill, when from the "budget" standpoint, its a done deal? I know, because we want to play politics and bash Obama, and create a standstill, rather than just resolve the issue at hand. Both sides have fault, but presently, its square on the hands of the governor to get the budget resolved.

As for the entitlement issues, most intelligent people who are well off know better. It's why the top tax bracket votes more blue than red. The reddest group doesn't actually make a decent enough living to buy a house in a good neighborhood anymore.

[Parkbandit]

Thats where you and I differ. I will not bend over while Goldman Sachs and those Wall Street bastards fuck us. I am surprised you are so willing.

I don't even know what the fuck you are talking about to be honest... more communist "I hate the banks because they are run by JEWS!" bullshit I assume.

Why don't you tell us how we should fix social security.

[Alfster]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/opinion/22brooks.html

[Back]

I don't even know what the fuck you are talking about to be honest... more communist "I hate the banks because they are run by JEWS!" bullshit I assume.

You know I’m not racist so this is you grasping at straws.


Why don't you tell us how we should fix social security.

How can I? I’m not the one who thinks it is broken. Ask me how we can improve it and I am all ears.

[Alfster]

There's a new twist in the Chaos at the Capitol. That budget bill could payoff big for one of Governor Walker's biggest campaign contributors.

Here's something you might not know. Buried inside Walker's 144-page budget repair bill are 10 lines. They don't directly deal with state workers, unions, or contracts. Still, controversy is already heating up over what it could mean for a couple of out-of-state billionaires.

The sign at Saturday's Tea Party rally in Madison read "Walker, kick the Koch habit." What does that mean?

Charles and David Koch are high powered conservatives. Koch Industries is one of the largest private energy companies in the world, with operations throughout Wisconsin.

In 2010, Koch's political action committee gave Governor Walker's campaign $43,000 its second largest contribution.

So what?

Well, to save money, the Governor's controversial budget bill would allow the state to "sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without the solicitation of bids."

Critics say no-bids could mean some sweet deals for Koch.

"They put all of this money into getting him elected and now they are reaping the benefit, whether it's reducing the rights of working families in Wisconsin as well as this payoff on the power plants," said One Wisconsin Now director Scot Ross.

Another concern: "If the government were to unload these power plants, we would want to see not just transparency, but competitive bidding," said UW-Milwaukee Public Administration Professor, Mordecai Lee. "We'd want to know that the taxpayers are getting the most for their dollars."

And Lee worries: "Really, it seems to me it makes government look like it's for sale,"

In this case, to the Koch brothers, who also founded and fund "American's for Prosperity" -- Tea Party supporters, which recently launched the standwithwalker.com website.

Koch's PAC gave a million dollars to the Republican Governor's Association which spent a ton of money on conservative TV ads in Wisconsin last year.

A spokesperson for Governor Walker's office told the I-Team in an email Monday night that he couldn't comment on short notice.










Another interesting article.

[Back]

That's not what I heard.. but let's keep your sexual experience out of this. How is the banks fucking clawing at your money again?

There you go again. When you think you are losing an argument all of a sudden it gets personal. It is in your next sentence.




I thought that was what an IRA, 401K, savings account, etc... was for?

Oh, nevermind... you don't know how to be responsible for yourself.

Social Security it not a high risk market fund. Plus, fuckhead, my speaking up about this bullshit is me being responsible for my retirement and not putting it in the hands of someone else. Fuck sake!

[Parkbandit]

You know I’m not racist so this is you grasping at straws.


ok?



How can I? I’m not the one who thinks it is broken. Ask me how we can improve it and I am all ears.

How can we improve it.

Now you are all ears? Awesome?

[WRoss]

There's a new twist in the Chaos at the Capitol. That budget bill could payoff big for one of Governor Walker's biggest campaign contributors.

Here's something you might not know. Buried inside Walker's 144-page budget repair bill are 10 lines. They don't directly deal with state workers, unions, or contracts. Still, controversy is already heating up over what it could mean for a couple of out-of-state billionaires.

The sign at Saturday's Tea Party rally in Madison read "Walker, kick the Koch habit." What does that mean?

Charles and David Koch are high powered conservatives. Koch Industries is one of the largest private energy companies in the world, with operations throughout Wisconsin.

In 2010, Koch's political action committee gave Governor Walker's campaign $43,000 its second largest contribution.

So what?

Well, to save money, the Governor's controversial budget bill would allow the state to "sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without the solicitation of bids."

Critics say no-bids could mean some sweet deals for Koch.

"They put all of this money into getting him elected and now they are reaping the benefit, whether it's reducing the rights of working families in Wisconsin as well as this payoff on the power plants," said One Wisconsin Now director Scot Ross.

Another concern: "If the government were to unload these power plants, we would want to see not just transparency, but competitive bidding," said UW-Milwaukee Public Administration Professor, Mordecai Lee. "We'd want to know that the taxpayers are getting the most for their dollars."

And Lee worries: "Really, it seems to me it makes government look like it's for sale,"

In this case, to the Koch brothers, who also founded and fund "American's for Prosperity" -- Tea Party supporters, which recently launched the standwithwalker.com website.

Koch's PAC gave a million dollars to the Republican Governor's Association which spent a ton of money on conservative TV ads in Wisconsin last year.

A spokesperson for Governor Walker's office told the I-Team in an email Monday night that he couldn't comment on short notice.










Another interesting article.


Can you source this? I don't doubt you, just want to read more about it.

[Parkbandit]

There you go again. When you think you are losing an argument all of a sudden it gets personal. It is in your next sentence.

Losing an argument? With you? That's impossible.



Social Security it not a high risk market fund. Plus, fuckhead, my speaking up about this bullshit is me being responsible for my retirement and not putting it in the hands of someone else. Fuck sake!

So, your idea of being responsible for your retirement is to hope that social security is solvent enough when you hit retirement age? That is fucking awesome.

A perfect example of what is wrong with this country. Thanks Backlash.

[Alfster]

Can you source this? I don't doubt you, just want to read more about it.

My bad, i thought I linked it.
http://www.todaystmj4.com/features/iteam/116633848.html

[Warriorbird]

Can you source this? I don't doubt you, just want to read more about it.

Earliest source.

http://www.ginandtacos.com/2011/02/21/stand-and-deliver/

More restraint

http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2011/02/22/koch_brothers_no_bid_walker_wisconsin/

[Back]

Losing an argument? With you? That's impossible.



So, your idea of being responsible for your retirement is to hope that social security is solvent enough when you hit retirement age? That is fucking awesome.

A perfect example of what is wrong with this country. Thanks Backlash.

So, stop paying into it.

[Parkbandit]

So, stop paying into it.

:rofl:

Seriously, at this point.. why do you even bother?

[Back]

:rofl:

Seriously, at this point.. why do you even bother?

You think I am kidding? If you really want to not be a part of it stop paying. Its pretty simple.

[Atlanteax]

I was asking Atlanteax, which I presume is pronounced Atlanta, but I can provide my reasoning for asking this question to you since you asked so nicely.

Seems to me that the concept of the “right to work” policy is inherently an entitlement concept. And to go even further, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness seems a bit entitled as well. Along with freedom for that matter.


I'm pretty sure Atlanteax was describing the programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, pensions, etc.. as entitlement programs... which is why I was asking what those programs would have to do with a Right to Work state.

And I always pronounced his name like "Atlantoe".

I was referring to how Public Employees tend to have significantly more "perks" than Private Employee ... due to them being treated as a voting bloc (ie "getting the vote of XXX union"), and then it being dang difficult to reduce those "perks" to a reasonable level more in-line with Private Employees due to them raising holy heck as in Wisconsin.

Call sign is intended to be "At-lan-teax" with the ending similar to "antique"

[Atlanteax]

You think I am kidding? If you really want to not be a part of it stop paying. Its pretty simple.

Millions of Americans would be opt-ing out of having to pay into social security if it was a legit option.

Social Security is essentially a Ponzi scheme of epic proportions.

[~Rocktar~]

Millions of Americans would be opt-ing out of having to pay into social security if it was a legit option.

Social Security is essentially a Ponzi scheme of epic proportions.

I certainly would, I know I won't likely see any of my money from it. Even in a bad mutual fund, at least I would see some of my cash out of it after 40 years.

[Cephalopod]

Wisconsin Governor Pranked by Caller Posing as Donor (http://www.cnbc.com/id/41738815/)
A prank caller pretending to be billionaire conservative businessman David Koch was able to have a lengthy conversation with Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker about his strategy to cripple public employee unions, the governor's office confirmed Wednesday.

On the call, Walker joked about bringing a baseball bat to a meeting with Democratic leaders, said it would "be outstanding" to be flown out to California by Koch for a good time after the battle is over, and said he expected the anti-union movement to spread across the country.

Audio was posted on the Buffalo Beast, a left-leaning website based in New York, and quickly spread across the Internet.


Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4&feature=player_embedded)

Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3a2pYGr7-k&feature=player_embedded)

Alternate link for Conservatives (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/23/gov-walker-prank-called-blogger-posing-billionaire-david-koch/)

Summary, provided by a redditor (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/fqzvc/wisconsin_governor_scott_walker_gets_crankcalled/c1hzpfa):


• Walker admits having considered planting provocateurs in the crowd.

• Walker plans to trick state senate dems into meeting so that he can hold the quorum open, even without their presence.

• There's some bill being presented that forces the absent dems to pick up their checks in person, and if/when they do show up to get them, the checks will be locked in the desks on the house floor.

• 'Koch' calls up and gets a 20 minute, in-depth report from the governor; there is very little prodding from 'Koch'. Simply put, Koch is the boss.

• Walker's biggest public complaint about the protests is that many protesters are from out of state. Koch is very much from out of state.


Honestly, the guy pretending to be David Koch wasn't even doing a good job. I have to think Walker had an inkling this was a prank. As someone elsewhere pointed out, if the prank-caller had been a bit more saavy, this could be the sort of thing that was career-destroying... as it was, we don't really learn much and his secretary will probably just be fired.

[Parkbandit]

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4&feature=player_embedded)

Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3a2pYGr7-k&feature=player_embedded)

Summary, provided by a redditor (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/fqzvc/wisconsin_governor_scott_walker_gets_crankcalled/c1hzpfa):


Honestly, the guy pretending to be David Koch wasn't even doing a good job. I have to think Walker had an inkling this was a prank.

I'm trying to figure out how this is newsworthy. It's not like they could play "GOTCHA" with Walker.. except they tricked him into talking to them.

[Cephalopod]

I'm trying to figure out how this is newsworthy. It's not like they could play "GOTCHA" with Walker.. except they tricked him into talking to them.

Yeah, I added a bit more in an edit after what you quoted. They didn't really 'get' Walker on anything, although I could argue that Walker allowed someone to waste 20 minutes of his time... in these tight, budget-slashing days, I don't think we can afford that!

[Jarvan]

I am still trying to ponder the outrage there would have been if every republican had walked out of the capital while the dems were pushing their bills down the countries throat.

So, would it be ok to call the Dems obstructionists due to this? The party of No?

[Cephalopod]

I am still trying to ponder the outrage there would have been if every republican had walked out of the capital while the dems were pushing their bills down the countries throat.

See previous coorelations to Republican filibusters.


So, would it be ok to call the Dems obstructionists due to this? The party of No?

Yes.

[Parkbandit]

Yeah, I added a bit more in an edit after what you quoted. They didn't really 'get' Walker on anything, although I could argue that Walker allowed someone to waste 20 minutes of his time... in these tight, budget-slashing days, I don't think we can afford that!

You've obviously never heard of the expression "Talk is cheap"

:)

[Cephalopod]

You've obviously never heard of the expression "Talk is cheap"

:)

I calculate that phone call cost the state of Wisconsin $5.20. Again, in these trying times, can we afford to have our public officials wasting that sort of cash 'shooting the shit' with a possible supporter? I don't think so. BELIEVE IN WISCONSIN AGAIN.

[Cephalopod]

http://sharing.wlfi.com/sharewish//photo/2011/02/23/Untitled-2_20110223121711_320_240.JPG (http://www.wlfi.com/dpps/news/indiana/tweet-lands-deputy-ag-in-hot-water_3727263)

Oops?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Why don't you tell us how we should fix social security.


How can I? I’m not the one who thinks it is broken.

Seriously, you don't think SS is broken? You must be the only person in America. I'm curious what it would take for it to be broken to you. Please tell me SS isn't your only retirement investment.

Social Security to See Payout Exceed Pay-In This Year (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/business/economy/25social.html) (this was March 2010)

According to the article, SSN will run out of funds in 2037. I'm guessing you'll be right about 65-70 then... perfect for retirement.

[Parkbandit]

I calculate that phone call cost the state of Wisconsin $5.20. Again, in these trying times, can we afford to have our public officials wasting that sort of cash 'shooting the shit' with a possible supporter? I don't think so. BELIEVE IN WISCONSIN AGAIN.

Stop making Backlash look less retarded.


http://sharing.wlfi.com/sharewish//photo/2011/02/23/Untitled-2_20110223121711_320_240.JPG (http://www.wlfi.com/dpps/news/indiana/tweet-lands-deputy-ag-in-hot-water_3727263)

Oops?

I don't get it.

[crb]

That phone call is non-news.

And really, the head of the AFL/CIO has bragged he talks to someone in the White house daily. If Walker was a Koch puppet wouldn't he have notrecognized the voice? The two have probably never met.

this is some serious pot kettle shit.

Oh, by the way, Wisconsin law only requires 20 votes for funding bills. If Walker just split the bill up he could have collective bargaining rights revoked tommorow. He could also make abortion illegal, make Wisconsin a right to work state, pass an equivalent of Arizona's immigration law, ban gay marriage, and do any other number of things that are not budgetary.

If this joke goes on long enough you can probably expect that to happen.

In the meantime, vocal minorities don't own government.

[Parkbandit]

Seriously, you don't think SS is broken? You must be the only person in America. I'm curious what it would take for it to be broken to you. Please tell me SS isn't your only retirement investment.

In case you missed it:


my speaking up about this bullshit is me being responsible for my retirement and not putting it in the hands of someone else. Fuck sake!

Backlash is very responsible.. by posting about Social Security on a gaming forum, he's being responsible for his retirement....

Why would he need anything else!?

[Latrinsorm]

Live ammunition refers to real bullets, as opposed to blanks or rubber bullets. In this context Deputy Cox is advocating firing upon protesters a la the Boston Massacre.

What I'm most surprised about is a guy from Wisconsin having a Chargers logo on his twitter account.

[Parkbandit]

That phone call is non-news.

And really, the head of the AFL/CIO has bragged he talks to someone in the White house daily. If Walker was a Koch puppet wouldn't he have notrecognized the voice? The two have probably never met.

this is some serious pot kettle shit.


Wait.. Obama talks to the head of the AFL/CIO every day.. but hasn't spoken to a half dozen of his own cabinet members in the 2 years since they took the jobs?

Awesome....

[Cephalopod]

Live ammunition refers to real bullets, as opposed to blanks or rubber bullets. In this context Deputy Cox is advocating firing upon protesters a la the Boston Massacre.

What I'm most surprised about is a guy from Wisconsin having a Chargers logo on his twitter account.

He was an Indiana deputy attorney general.

[Cephalopod]

Stop making Backlash look less retarded.


I was trying to make a funny. :(

[Warriorbird]

An innovation I LIKE from PB's state.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/26/florida.grading.parents/index.html

[Back]

Seriously, you don't think SS is broken? You must be the only person in America. I'm curious what it would take for it to be broken to you. Please tell me SS isn't your only retirement investment.

Social Security to See Payout Exceed Pay-In This Year (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/business/economy/25social.html) (this was March 2010)

According to the article, SSN will run out of funds in 2037. I'm guessing you'll be right about 65-70 then... perfect for retirement.

You are spot on about my age. :)

I do realize it needs some tweaks. Population growth, inflation, many things have factors into how it works. So I’d rather find solutions to keeping it the way it is instead of turning it into a 401k kinda system. I think you would agree that the 401k system got a huge bite taken out of its ass recently so it has its own flaws.

What I am not willing to do is sit by and watch Wall Street rape my Social Security. Like I’ve said in another post I have been contributing since the first day I got a job at 14 years old. I would rather a cash refund before turning my money over to investment banks. I do not own a 401k because I knew back when they implemented it that it was a fools game using my money. Fuck that noise.

And no, Social Security is not my retirement plan. It, along with hopefully medicare are meant as easing the burden of retirement. I’ve paid into it my whole life, I have paid taxes my whole life, so I expect to see something when I get to my twilight years for it.

[Parkbandit]

And no, Social Security is not my retirement plan. It, along with hopefully medicare are meant as easing the burden of retirement. I’ve paid into it my whole life, I have paid taxes my whole life, so I expect to see something when I get to my twilight years for it.

So.. Social Security and Medicare is your income plan for retirement.

http://rlv.zcache.com/rofl_tshirt-p235377379520837706uh8e_400.jpg

[Parkbandit]

I was trying to make a funny. :(

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/y/you_fail-14145.jpg

[Back]

So.. Social Security and Medicare is your income plan for retirement.

Only you could interpret the exact opposite meaning of what has been actually said. Thats so beyond stupid there must be an “-ism” or some other clinical term used to describe the condition.

[Parkbandit]

Only you could interpret the exact opposite meaning of what has been actually said. Thats so beyond stupid there must be an “-ism” or some other clinical term used to describe the condition.

Oh do tell. What's your retirement plan... besides Social Security and Medicare?

And keep in mind, anything you suggest you have better not include any FAT CAT WALLSTREET EVIL DOERS!!!

[Alfster]

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/wisconsin_public_servants_already_face_a_compensat ion_penalty

But let's be real, this is no longer about money.

[Parkbandit]

http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/wisconsin_public_servants_already_face_a_compensat ion_penalty

But let's be real, this is no longer about money.

Why do you believe it's not about the money?

Also, the EPI is a liberal think tank organization.. of course they will show that private compensation is higher than public.

[Warriorbird]

Why do you believe it's not about the money?

Also, the EPI is a liberal think tank organization.. of course they will show that private compensation is higher than public.

It'd definitely be awesome to see some unbiased sources backing up your arguments.

If the union already agreed to the financial demands, it seems as though destroying collective bargaining matters most.

[Alfster]

I don't find their information inaccurate. My father, who has his master's as well as a second bachelors in computer science, he would easily have made 10x what he does as a teacher had he gone into the private sector. I don't think it's about the money anymore, because the only issue holding shit up at this point is collective bargaining rights. The unions have openly said they're okay with paying more for benefits, pensions, etc.

The thing holding up this bill isn't the money. It's the collective bargaining rights, and it's something that has no place in a bill that is a budget crisis for this year. They've got that fixed. I have a hard time believing what he's saying. There's something shady going on in the background, including the fact that he's unwilling to show his budget plan before they vote on this bill.

Why do you think he's not willing to budge on the collective bargaining, given that the unions are willing to allow the financial changes he wants? He's a politician, but I really don't think he's got the State's best interests in his mind.


Also, somewhat off topic. But I'm finding that people that were for the bill when it was first proposed are starting to take a second look at everything that's going on. They have the same question I do. That if the unions are giving what he wants for money, then why keep the rest in place? Is it that essential, or does he have something else in mind? I've had some friends at work that were for the bill, but are now undecided because of how big of a douche he's making himself look like. He had a "fireplace chat" last night, that came across as speaking down to...everyone.

[Back]

Oh do tell. What's your retirement plan... besides Social Security and Medicare?

And keep in mind, anything you suggest you have better not include any FAT CAT WALLSTREET EVIL DOERS!!!

I do not go into detail about my income with anyone much less some joker on the internet. Get real.

[Rinualdo]

I do not go into detail about my income with anyone much less some joker on the internet. Get real.

It's Nascar commemorative plates, isn't it?

[Parkbandit]

It'd definitely be awesome to see some unbiased sources backing up your arguments.


While I have no "unbiased sources", here are some things from their own website:

WE BELIEVE IN:

FIGHTING FOR WORKING FAMILIES
We expose inequalities, champion bold solutions, and push progressive economic issues to the forefront of the national agenda.

BROADLY SHARED PROSPERITY
EPI’s efforts focus on growing the economy for the benefit of all Americans, not just the already wealthy.

ACCURACY.
Our research is reliable and rigorous, so that we can tell the story of working Americans and counter much of the misinformation in the discourse on the economy.

PROGRESSIVISM.
Government must play an active role in protecting the economically vulnerable, ensuring equal opportunity, and improving the well-being of all Americans.



The members of their board are (in order):

Staff member of Dick Gephardt
President of the IAM
Officer of SEIU
President of CWA
Community organizer who worked with Cesar Chavez
Co-Founder of EPI
President of the USWA
President of the UAW
Author of "The Plot against Pensions and the Plan to Save Them"
Secretary of Labor under Bill Clinton
Board member of the Democracy Alliance
Co-founder of EPI
Pusher for NELA "Working for Change" agenda
15th President of Bennett College for Women. Recognized for her progressive and insightful observations. (from her own website)
U.S. Secretary of Labor under Carter
President of AFSCME
President of EPI
President of National Partnership for Women and Families
Executive Director of the Metropolitan Center for Urban Education
VP Labor Advisory Board of the American Income Life Insurance company
Directs the Program for Environmental and Regional Equity
President of Workers United
Sec of Labor under Clinton
Democratic House 39th District CA
President of SEIU
President of the AFL-CIO
President of the American Federation of Teachers
President of NCLR


But hey.. they do claim to be unbiased and some people (WB) actually believe that they are indeed that.

Of course, that would require an intelligence slightly above that of a goldfish to believe.

[Atlanteax]

Looks like public opinion is turning against the Unions...

http://cagle.com/working/110223/payne.jpg

http://cagle.com/working/110223/beeler.jpg

http://cagle.com/working/110223/lester.jpg

[xt3kn1x]

Public opinion or no, there's no reason for collective bargaining to be taken off the table.

[Warriorbird]

I have no "unbiased sources"

Ah, clarifications.

[Kembal]

I don't find their information inaccurate. My father, who has his master's as well as a second bachelors in computer science, he would easily have made 10x what he does as a teacher had he gone into the private sector. I don't think it's about the money anymore, because the only issue holding shit up at this point is collective bargaining rights. The unions have openly said they're okay with paying more for benefits, pensions, etc.

The thing holding up this bill isn't the money. It's the collective bargaining rights, and it's something that has no place in a bill that is a budget crisis for this year. They've got that fixed. I have a hard time believing what he's saying. There's something shady going on in the background, including the fact that he's unwilling to show his budget plan before they vote on this bill.

Why do you think he's not willing to budge on the collective bargaining, given that the unions are willing to allow the financial changes he wants? He's a politician, but I really don't think he's got the State's best interests in his mind.


Also, somewhat off topic. But I'm finding that people that were for the bill when it was first proposed are starting to take a second look at everything that's going on. They have the same question I do. That if the unions are giving what he wants for money, then why keep the rest in place? Is it that essential, or does he have something else in mind? I've had some friends at work that were for the bill, but are now undecided because of how big of a douche he's making himself look like. He had a "fireplace chat" last night, that came across as speaking down to...everyone.

Breaking the unions in perpetuity would allow a good number of state services to be privatized. Just a thought.

[pabstblueribbon]

Breaking the unions in perpetuity would allow a good number of state services to be privatized. Just a thought.

I hope it doesn't turn out how the DMV offices were privatized around here a few years back.

What a crock of shit that turned into.

[Cephalopod]

Breaking the unions in perpetuity would allow a good number of state services to be privatized. Just a thought.

Is this entirely desirable? While the common conservative canard is that privatization works and saves money, the data so far show corruption and profit motive tend to drive both of those goals awry when actually put into practice, especially w.r.t. prisons and transportation. I have no doubt that many state services could be privatized and generate cost savings with no impact (or even a positive impact) on services rendered, but...

See: privatized prisons, and the nearly across-the-board failure everywhere it has been tried (although states keep pumping money into them and trying to privatize more.)

See also: nearly any privatization that has occurred in the last decade in Florida. For every success story there are matching stories of corruption and failure in attempts to privatize hospitals, prisons, information systems, cleaning services, human resources.

It's another one of those tales of "In a perfect world..."

In a perfect world, privatization would work for state services.

Also in a perfect world, unions would be more flexible to state budget pressures.

[Cephalopod]

And I have a feeling this is going to be another Obama broken promise:



Will Obama Find Those Shoes? (http://my.firedoglake.com/mmonk/2011/02/24/will-obama-find-those-shoes/)

"And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I’m in the White House, I will put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I’ll will walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner." (Obama, 2007)