George W. Bush: I'm Done With Politics

[Parkbandit]

Republican candidates hoping for some high-profile help on the campaign trail next year shouldn't look to George W. Bush.

The former president told C-SPAN he's done with politics and all its trappings.

"I don't want to go out and campaign for candidates," he told Brian Lamb in an interview airing this weekend. "I don't want to be viewed as a perpetual money-raiser."

Bush said he's not interested in making television appearances and made it clear that the C-SPAN sitdown was an anomoly.

"In spite of the fact that I'm now on TV, I don't want to be on TV," he said.

Bush said he doesn't think former presidents should resort to punditry, because they'll inevitably be asked to second-guess the decisions of the current Oval Office occupant.

"I think it's bad for the country, frankly, to have a former president criticize his successor," Bush said. "It's tough enough to be president as it is without a former president undermining the current president."

The 43rd president has kept a relatively low profile since leaving the White House two years ago this month. He reappeared last fall to promote his memoir, "Decision Points," and occasionally delivers paid speeches.

Bush said "being out of the press, at least in this stage of the post-presidency, is something that makes me very comfortable. It's somewhat liberating, frankly."

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/01/28/george-w-bush-im-done-with-politics/

[diethx]

"I think it's bad for the country, frankly, to have a former president criticize his successor," Bush said. "It's tough enough to be president as it is without a former president undermining the current president."

Nicely put, good for him.

[Androidpk]

Sad. I was hoping for some reality TV.

http://i55.tinypic.com/33mvgno.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

I always liked that fella.

[Drew]

I was impressed at how he handled the transfer of power to the Obama administration. The Clinton admin had really done it's best to stymie on their transfer and I think Bush saw how it affected his ability to do things in the first few months of his presidency. By all accounts his transfer to Obama was very well done and there was no sabotage. One of the things I respected about the guy, he has a lot of character.

[Warriorbird]

I was impressed at how he handled the transfer of power to the Obama administration. The Clinton admin had really done it's best to stymie on their transfer and I think Bush saw how it affected his ability to do things in the first few months of his presidency. By all accounts his transfer to Obama was very well done and there was no sabotage. One of the things I respected about the guy, he has a lot of character.

Something you can't really say about Cheney.

[Cephalopod]

I was impressed at how he handled the transfer of power to the Obama administration. The Clinton admin had really done it's best to stymie on their transfer and I think Bush saw how it affected his ability to do things in the first few months of his presidency. By all accounts his transfer to Obama was very well done and there was no sabotage. One of the things I respected about the guy, he has a lot of character.

I can't disagree with this.

[4a6c1]

He is a character and has alot of character. Poor ole George. I wish the media would just let the man grow old and play golf.

[Nieninque]

Fuck him, worthless cunt.

[TheEschaton]

I was impressed at how he handled the transfer of power to the Obama administration. The Clinton admin had really done it's best to stymie on their transfer and I think Bush saw how it affected his ability to do things in the first few months of his presidency. By all accounts his transfer to Obama was very well done and there was no sabotage. One of the things I respected about the guy, he has a lot of character.

You mean all that sabotage which was made up and not real?

Oh yeah.

[Drew]

You mean all that sabotage which was made up and not real?

Oh yeah.

You are so annoying sometimes dude. I can't stand delusional people who think their side NEVER does wrong. I know it helps the psyche to think your side is always 100% right, but it makes you nearly intolerable on places where others aren't equally blinded.

[4a6c1]

You are so annoying sometimes dude. I can't stand delusional people who think their side NEVER does wrong. I know it helps the psyche to think your side is always 100% right, but it makes you nearly intolerable on places where others aren't equally blinded.

You made that up!

[Parkbandit]

Something you can't really say about Cheney.

You do realize that Cheney was never President, right? Here's Bush's quote again, I'll bold the part you clearly missed:



"I think it's bad for the country, frankly, to have a former president criticize his successor," Bush said. "It's tough enough to be president as it is without a former president undermining the current president."


Now... I bet even you could come up with 2 former Presidents that "you can't really say" that about... do you still need help?

Let me help you.. they both begin with "C".. and I'm not talking about Cleveland or Coolidge.

Want to bet Obama will carry on the liberal tradition when he gets kicked out of office?

[waywardgs]

Sure, he wants to disappear. I would too if I started a bullshit war that killed five thousand soldiers for no reason, instituted policies that brought the country to it's knees and perpetrated the biggest degradation of civil liberties the united states has seen in 60 years.

Congrats?

[Parkbandit]

Sure, he wants to disappear. I would too if I started a bullshit war that killed five thousand soldiers for no reason, instituted policies that brought the country to it's knees and perpetrated the biggest degradation of civil liberties the united states has seen in 60 years.

Congrats?

:rofl:

Backlash? Is that you?

[Androidpk]

You do realize that Cheney was never President, right? Here's Bush's quote again, I'll bold the part you clearly missed:



Now... I bet even you could come up with 2 former Presidents that "you can't really say" that about... do you still need help?

Let me help you.. they both begin with "C".. and I'm not talking about Cleveland or Coolidge.

Want to bet Obama will carry on the liberal tradition when he gets kicked out of office?

Might want to put on your reading glasses, Pops. Go pick up some reading comprehension while you're at it.

[Back]

You are so annoying sometimes dude. I can't stand delusional people who think their side NEVER does wrong. I know it helps the psyche to think your side is always 100% right, but it makes you nearly intolerable on places where others aren't equally blinded.

I read this and thought you were talking about PB.

[Rinualdo]

Its cool that Bush is staying out of politics. Might have something to do with all the illegal information (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2011/01/bush_officials_violated_hatch.html) coming out about his time in office?

[Gan]

W's book is outstanding.

I'm very pleased with the path he's taken post-presidency. He was and will always be one of my favorite Presidents.

[Parkbandit]

Might want to put on your reading glasses, Pops. Go pick up some reading comprehension while you're at it.

Why don't you get your Mommy to help you explain it to me, little boy?

[Parkbandit]

Its cool that Bush is staying out of politics. Might have something to do with all the illegal information (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2011/01/bush_officials_violated_hatch.html) coming out about his time in office?

That must be it. You solved it!

[Tgo01]

You mean all that sabotage which was made up and not real?

Oh yeah.

Except it all wasn't made up?

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/12/nation/na-clinton12


The GAO concluded that ''damage, theft, vandalism, and pranks did occur in the White House during the 2001 presidential transition.'' The report stated that some incidents, such as removing keyboard keys, placing glue on desk drawers and leaving obscene voicemail messages ''clearly were intentional,'' and intentional damage would constitute a criminal act under federal law.

Oh yeah.

[Parkbandit]

Except it all wasn't made up?

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/12/nation/na-clinton12

Oh yeah.

There is a gigantic difference between TheE's reality and the rest of the world's.

[Keller]

11 years too late, George.

[waywardgs]

:rofl:

Backlash? Is that you?

Nope, just another person who didn't think it was right to use 9/11 as an excuse to pursue a decades-old warmongering neocon middle eastern agenda, eviscerate the concept of small government, roll back civil liberties by a few dozen years, and hide it all behind the vaporous chicken little cries of gay marriage, threats to religion and other such distractions. PB, even you're smart enough to know Bush wasn't a great president. You may not like Obama, and that's fine, continue to debate all you want about that, but c'mon... Bush was just this Texas party guy who did a shit poor job of running businesses, a middle-of-the-road drunk who woke up one day, took a look at his pop's connections, and said Hey! I could go into politics! Ma Daddy was in politics!

He's not going to "be involved" anymore because it would hurt his party. He knows it, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the republicans quietly asked him nicely to please just spend your time clearing brush on your farm and don't stick your nose in our business anymore, thank you very much.

[Parkbandit]

Nope, just another person who didn't think it was right to use 9/11 as an excuse to pursue a decades-old warmongering neocon middle eastern agenda, eviscerate the concept of small government, roll back civil liberties by a few dozen years, and hide it all behind the vaporous chicken little cries of gay marriage, threats to religion and other such distractions. PB, even you're smart enough to know Bush wasn't a great president. You may not like Obama, and that's fine, continue to debate all you want about that, but c'mon... Bush was just this Texas party guy who did a shit poor job of running businesses, a middle-of-the-road drunk who woke up one day, took a look at his pop's connections, and said Hey! I could go into politics! Ma Daddy was in politics!

He's not going to "be involved" anymore because it would hurt his party. He knows it, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the republicans quietly asked him nicely to please just spend your time clearing brush on your farm and don't stick your nose in our business anymore, thank you very much.

You sound like you've had one too many sips of the spiked kool-aid to even take seriously.

PS - You forgot to blame Bush for the current economic mess we are in.

PPS - You didn't use the phrase "the failed policies of the last administration"

PPPS - Please include "Winning the Future" in all future liberal propaganda.

[waywardgs]

You sound like you've had one too many sips of the spiked kool-aid to even take seriously.

PS - You forgot to blame Bush for the current economic mess we are in.

PPS - You didn't use the phrase "the failed policies of the last administration"

PPPS - Please include "Winning the Future" in all future liberal propaganda.


That's all well and good, but if you really believe in small government, which from your posting history it seems you do, you can't possibly believe Bush lived up to those expectations. And remember, this is a thread about Bush, not Obama, k?

[TheEschaton]

Except it all wasn't made up?

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/12/nation/na-clinton12



Oh yeah.

From the very article you quoted:


In a letter to the GAO comptroller, White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales criticized the report for minimizing the number of pranks--which the GAO put at two dozen--and for failing to detail them.

These "pranks" included stickers, and in one case, a blank ballot with the word "chad" punched out. The rest was put down to normal wear and tear of all the people moving in and out of the office in a hectic transition.

In other words, the conclusion of the report was that Dubya's administration made a mountain out of a mole hill, and spent more investigating it than it did to repair what minor damage there was.

And then proceeded to put us in two wars and tank the economy, all in 8 short years.

[IorakeWarhammer]

yeah let me commit several hundred war crimes and then..

I'm DONE with politics!

I hope he lives to the day we take his ass to court.

[NocturnalRob]

I hope he lives to the day we take his ass to court.
You're an idiot.

[Parkbandit]

That's all well and good, but if you really believe in small government, which from your posting history it seems you do, you can't possibly believe Bush lived up to those expectations. And remember, this is a thread about Bush, not Obama, k?

I've never kept secret my dislike of Bush expanding the size of government or the amount of money the Congress spent during his 8 years.

And I never brought up Obama.. just reminding you that if you are going to spout off the dumbest talking points of liberals, you should get all the dumb ones in.. you simply missed a couple.

[Parkbandit]

These "pranks" included stickers, and in one case, a blank ballot with the word "chad" punched out. The rest was put down to normal wear and tear of all the people moving in and out of the office in a hectic transition.

In other words, the conclusion of the report was that Dubya's administration made a mountain out of a mole hill, and spent more investigating it than it did to repair what minor damage there was.

And then proceeded to put us in two wars and tank the economy, all in 8 short years.

You made the assertion that those "pranks".. which amounted to vandalism, were made up. That really wasn't the case, was it...

Let's be honest.. the transition from Bush to Obama.. or from Bush to Clinton was far more professional than that of Clinton to Bush.

[waywardgs]

I've never kept secret my dislike of Bush expanding the size of government or the amount of money the Congress spent during his 8 years.

And I never brought up Obama.. just reminding you that if you are going to spout off the dumbest talking points of liberals, you should get all the dumb ones in.. you simply missed a couple.

So it just pisses you off that we have the same thoughts on Bush. Got it.

[Back]

He is gone. I am happy. That is all. Hope he enjoys retirement.

[ClydeR]

He won't get out of politics. It's in his blood. If I'm wrong and he does get out of politics, it would be great loss for the nation. I'd like to see a constitutional amendment removing the term limits for presidents so Bush could serve again.

[Tgo01]

The rest was put down to normal wear and tear of all the people moving in and out of the office in a hectic transition.

Hectic? Did they misplace the memo on the exact date the transition would take place or something?

[Parkbandit]

So it just pisses you off that we have the same thoughts on Bush. Got it.

Not the same at all, given your last regurgitation of crazy liberal talking points.

[Tgo01]

Neg George W. Bush: I'm... 01-31-2011 12:31 AM Do you not even remember Florida?

Wait, so you're suggesting the administration was so full of themselves that they didn't even prepare for the possibility that Bush might win the election? That's reason enough to cause upwards of 20,000 dollars in damages and pulling a bunch of pranks as if they were in grade school I suppose.

Pos George W. Bush: I'm... 01-30-2011 04:02 AM blah blah blah. i demand that you post manchest in the topless thread. - SOMEBODY

Well, you first SOMEBODY!

[pabstblueribbon]

I was impressed at how he handled the transfer of power to the Obama administration. The Clinton admin had really done it's best to stymie on their transfer and I think Bush saw how it affected his ability to do things in the first few months of his presidency. By all accounts his transfer to Obama was very well done and there was no sabotage. One of the things I respected about the guy, he has a lot of character.

W key stealing motherfuckers111!!one

With this recent news many comedic writers will be in mourning.

[Warriorbird]

It's funny. I thought the worst Republican transition issues were illustrated in Bush v. Gore, Tgo1.

[Gan]

He won't get out of politics. It's in his blood. If I'm wrong and he does get out of politics, it would be great loss for the nation. I'd like to see a constitutional amendment removing the term limits for presidents so Bush could serve again.

You of all people should know that when W says he's going to do something, he does it. You missed a golden opportunity and thus only rate a C+ for this psuedo post.

[Rinualdo]

Neg George W. Bush: I'm... 01-31-2011 12:31 AM Do you not even remember Florida?

Wait, so you're suggesting the administration was so full of themselves that they didn't even prepare for the possibility that Bush might win the election? That's reason enough to cause upwards of 20,000 dollars in damages and pulling a bunch of pranks as if they were in grade school I suppose.


Read TheE's post on the "pranks" that were pulled.

Remember Bush's election went all the way to the Supreme Court. During the time, there was widespread speculation the inauguration would be delayed and Clinton would have to stay in office until the legal system sorted out who won Florida.

[Rinualdo]

...when W says he's going to do something, he does it.

No matter what evidence there is to the contrary!

[Gelston]

Read TheE's post on the "pranks" that were pulled.

Remember Bush's election went all the way to the Supreme Court. During the time, there was widespread speculation the inauguration would be delayed and Clinton would have to stay in office until the legal system sorted out who won Florida.

I don't recall speculation of the inauguration being delayed. I remember it being widely spoken that it would be, and it was, taken care of well before the date.

[Tgo01]

Read TheE's post on the "pranks" that were pulled.

Which one? The one where he claimed nothing happened or the one where he admitted pranks were pulled?

[Gan]

No matter what evidence there is to the contrary!

Good one!

[Rinualdo]

Which one? The one where he claimed nothing happened or the one where he admitted pranks were pulled?

He sure did admit pranks were pulled...


These "pranks" included stickers, and in one case, a blank ballot with the word "chad" punched out. The rest was put down to normal wear and tear of all the people moving in and out of the office in a hectic transition.

In other words, the conclusion of the report was that Dubya's administration made a mountain out of a mole hill, and spent more investigating it than it did to repair what minor damage there was..

Seriously, what is your point here? Are you really making the argument that Clinton sucks because his administration caused 20k in damages when moving out? I sure hope not.

[Parkbandit]

He sure did admit pranks were pulled...


After he initially said they were made up.


You mean all that sabotage which was made up and not real?

Oh yeah.



Seriously, what is your point here? Are you really making the argument that Clinton sucks because his administration caused 20k in damages when moving out? I sure hope not.

Is it really that difficult for you to follow a thread?

Re-read the thread.. start on page one. If you require someone to dumb it down for you, just ask. I'll be happy to.

PS - And there was not "widespread speculation" that the inauguration was going to be delayed... the SCOTUS determined that Bush won the election on December 12th.

[Rinualdo]

PS - And there was not "widespread speculation" that the inauguration was going to be delayed... the SCOTUS determined that Bush won the election on December 12th.

More then a month after the general election.
Gotcha.

[Parkbandit]

More then a month after the general election.
Gotcha.

And still more than a month before the Inauguration.

Stop making up excuses.

[Tgo01]

Seriously, what is your point here? Are you really making the argument that Clinton sucks because his administration caused 20k in damages when moving out? I sure hope not.

That was quite the conclusion to jump to. I'll recap, Drew commented how the Clinton administration tried to stymie the transfer to Bush. TheEschaton claimed it was all made up and none of it ever happened. I posted a link showing that a report from the GAO concluded that indeed some of it was true, vandalism and pranks did occur during the transition between administrations. TheEschaton tried to downplay it all by claiming that the damage and most of the pranks were just a result of a 'hectic' transition. I made a smart ass comment about how the administration should have known well ahead of time when the transition would take place. You try to defend TheEschaton's claim that it was 'hectic' because apparently there was wide spread speculation that Clinton would remain in office even though Bush had already officially won the election a month before the transition took place.

If you could find a post by me where I even hinted at the fact that Clinton sucked because his administration caused 20k in damages due to 'moving' I'd sure love to read it.

[pabstblueribbon]

That was quite the conclusion to jump to. I'll recap, Drew commented how the Clinton administration tried to stymie the transfer to Bush. TheEschaton claimed it was all made up and none of it ever happened. I posted a link showing that a report from the GAO concluded that indeed some of it was true, vandalism and pranks did occur during the transition between administrations. TheEschaton tried to downplay it all by claiming that the damage and most of the pranks were just a result of a 'hectic' transition. I made a smart ass comment about how the administration should have known well ahead of time when the transition would take place. You try to defend TheEschaton's claim that it was 'hectic' because apparently there was wide spread speculation that Clinton would remain in office even though Bush had already officially won the election a month before the transition took place.

If you could find a post by me where I even hinted at the fact that Clinton sucked because his administration caused 20k in damages due to 'moving' I'd sure love to read it.

20k in damages isn't very much for the government. Each one of those W keys probably cost the taxpayers around 50 dollars each.

I think he was trying to say that he hopes that you weren't going to compare 20k of taxpayer money vs. the billions of taxpayer money the Bush administration used for the Iraq War/Haliburton contracts/Whatever.

[Tgo01]

20k in damages isn't very much for the government. Each one of those W keys probably cost the taxpayers around 50 dollars each.

I think he was trying to say that he hopes that you weren't going to compare 20k of taxpayer money vs. the billions of taxpayer money the Bush administration used for the Iraq War/Haliburton contracts/Whatever.

You're right, 20k is nothing to the government, but trying to claim that causing 20k in damage is typical when you're moving out does seem kind of absurd.

Truth be told I think Clinton was a better president than Bush but at the same time I think Bush takes a lot of heat for shit that wasn't his fault and also people seem to think a lot of his decisions were based on pure malice/evil, I think everything Bush did he thought was best for the country. Sure, he was wrong on a lot of things, but that was his thought process. He wasn't and isn't an evil man.

[pabstblueribbon]

You're right, 20k is nothing to the government, but trying to claim that causing 20k in damage is typical when you're moving out does seem kind of absurd.

Truth be told I think Clinton was a better president than Bush but at the same time I think Bush takes a lot of heat for shit that wasn't his fault and also people seem to think a lot of his decisions were based on pure malice/evil, I think everything Bush did he thought was best for the country. Sure, he was wrong on a lot of things, but that was his thought process. He wasn't and isn't an evil man.

Remains to be seen to be seen I guess.. nothings proven but..

I'm obviously not in the intelligence community. To me it seems awful fishy that we suddenly suspect Iraq, a secular nation for the region, of ties with al-Qa'ida, and low and behold the company that gets all the contracts, aka taxpayer money, but none other than Haliburton? Especially in a time when most Americans are pissed off.

I don't think I need a tin foil hat but.. c'mon man. They may not have caused it, but I wouldn't doubt they sure as shit took advantage of the situation for ill gains.

[Gan]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s174/z-6-a-6-c-6-h/conspiracy.jpg

[pabstblueribbon]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s174/z-6-a-6-c-6-h/conspiracy.jpg

Anything that makes the Right look bad because of obvious ties always degenerates into some stupid GIS image of a goddamn tin foil hat. Thanks for not letting me down.

[Rinualdo]

You're right, 20k is nothing to the government, but trying to claim that causing 20k in damage is typical when you're moving out does seem kind of absurd.



What frame of reference are you basing this on? The cost of Presidential transitions have gone up and up regardless of party.

Most of the google searches I've seen show the damages in the 13-14k range.
The total cost of the transition was in the millions, and has increased since. The transition from W to Obama was allocated 8.5 million. Even Reagan to Bush was 3million, not adjusted for inflation.

[Parkbandit]

I'm obviously not in the intelligence community.

You've made that painfully obvious from your time here.

[Parkbandit]

What frame of reference are you basing this on? The cost of Presidential transitions have gone up and up regardless of party.

Most of the google searches I've seen show the damages in the 13-14k range.
The total cost of the transition was in the millions, and has increased since. The transition from W to Obama was allocated 8.5 million. Even Reagan to Bush was 3million, not adjusted for inflation.

Seriously? Are you really excusing the piss poor behavior of some people in the Clinton administration by comparing the amount of their malicious damage to the entire cost of the administration transition?

Just stop.

[pabstblueribbon]

Images of cats in tin foil and then insults. Blowing things out of proportion when a Democrat does any thing while downplaying any thing a Republican does. Typical R-team.

[pabstblueribbon]

By the way, where is my Iphone so that I can be successful at life?

[Rinualdo]

Seriously? Are you really excusing the piss poor behavior of some people in the Clinton administration by comparing the amount of their malicious damage to the entire cost of the administration transition?

Just stop.

Certainly not.

There is no lack of things to criticize Clinton for. This one is rather small potatoes and very much overblown.

Do you really give a shit what some low level staffers did on their last day working?

[pabstblueribbon]

Malicious, subversion, socialist, LIBERALISM.

Sure you're not McCarthy re-incarnated?

[TheEschaton]

The whole point of it was that it was well overblown. I may have overstated in implying that it was *all* made up, but it was certainly not what Bush et al made it out to be.

As for how "classy" the Bush transition to Obama was, consider the climates of these two times. In 2000, we saw a bitterly divisive election where one candidate won the popular vote and the other won the electoral vote, as decided by the SCOTUS divided on a partisan line, a decision which they said can never be used as precedent, and wasn't based on any other precedent. After years of made up investigations by the Republican Congress, millions of dollars spent investigating it, and one blow job and the lie used to cover that blow job up later, I find it hard to believe you find it incredible that the Clintonites were pissed at Bush.

Meanwhile, in 2008, Obama won soundly, and Bush was slinking out of office with the lowest approval ratings for a President since God knows when, leaving behind 2 wars (1 very unpopular), and a shattered economy. Yet you credit him for him for being "classy", when all he did was try to escape out the back door.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Certainly not.

There is no lack of things to criticize Clinton for. This one is rather small potatoes and very much overblown.

Do you really give a shit what some low level staffers did on their last day working?

No, but I certainly wouldn't excuse it away like you've been doing in this thread... by claiming they were rushed.. then making some retarded comparison of damage to total transition budget.

[Parkbandit]

The whole point of it was that it was well overblown. I may have overstated in implying that it was *all* made up, but it was certainly not what Bush et al made it out to be.

As for how "classy" the Bush transition to Obama was, consider the climates of these two times. In 2000, we saw a bitterly divisive election where one candidate won the popular vote and the other won the electoral vote, as decided by the SCOTUS divided on a partisan line, a decision which they said can never be used as precedent, and wasn't based on any other precedent. After years of made up investigations by the Republican Congress, millions of dollars spent investigating it, and one blow job and the lie used to cover that blow job up later, I find it hard to believe you find it incredible that the Clintonites were pissed at Bush.

Meanwhile, in 2008, Obama won soundly, and Bush was slinking out of office with the lowest approval ratings for a President since God knows when, leaving behind 2 wars (1 very unpopular), and a shattered economy. Yet you credit him for him for being "classy", when all he did was try to escape out the back door.

-TheE-

I think you are missing the point... Bush believes that a former President criticizing the current President is in bad taste. Most people would agree with that. Some former Presidents haven't seemed able to manage this very simple act of decorum.

[Rinualdo]

No, but I certainly wouldn't excuse it away like you've been doing in this thread... by claiming they were rushed.. then making some retarded comparison of damage to total transition budget.

Excusing something and calling something irrelevant are not the same thing.

[Latrinsorm]

You're right, 20k is nothing to the government, but trying to claim that causing 20k in damage is typical when you're moving out does seem kind of absurd.President Clinton knew how to do it big. Don't be a hater.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Excusing something and calling something irrelevant are not the same thing.

Does the "D-Team" ever get tired of arguing semantics? They did some junior high shit moving out, damaged some stuff. It was juvenile. No matter your party, no one can say G.W.'s departure from the White House was juvenile. He's been nothing but a stand up guy since he left.

[Tgo01]

The whole point of it was that it was well overblown. I may have overstated in implying that it was *all* made up, but it was certainly not what Bush et al made it out to be.

Bush actually tried to downplay the whole thing, it was members of his administration and some members of Congress who who couldn't let it drop, and by not letting it drop Clinton supporters kept the whole thing going by calling Bushes people a bunch of liars.

[pabstblueribbon]

Does the "D-Team" ever get tired of arguing semantics? They did some junior high shit moving out, damaged some stuff. It was juvenile. No matter your party, no one can say G.W.'s departure from the White House was juvenile. He's been nothing but a stand up guy since he left.

I can agree with that.

[Rinualdo]

Bush actually tried to downplay the whole thing, it was members of his administration and some members of Congress who who couldn't let it drop, and by not letting it drop Clinton supporters kept the whole thing going by calling Bushes people a bunch of liars.

Including his Attorney General.

[Rinualdo]

Does the "D-Team" ever get tired of arguing semantics? They did some junior high shit moving out, damaged some stuff. It was juvenile. No matter your party, no one can say G.W.'s departure from the White House was juvenile. He's been nothing but a stand up guy since he left.

No semantics at all. I agree it was a juvenile act made a decade ago. I don't understand the relevance of the topic. This was some stupid shit done by some staffers, not Clinton himself.

It would be far more relevant to show the numerous speeches, comments, fund-raising, etc... that Clinton has done since leaving office or the perpetual blame he has placed on Bush and use that to compare to Bush's 2 years out of office of which there is ample evidence.

It isn't hard at all to show Clinton was much more vocal about Bush then Bush is about Obama.

[Gan]

No semantics at all. I agree it was a juvenile act made a decade ago. I don't understand the relevance of the topic. This was some stupid shit done by some staffers, not Clinton himself.

It would be far more relevant to show the numerous speeches, comments, fund-raising, etc... that Clinton has done since leaving office or the perpetual blame he has placed on Bush and use that to compare to Bush's 2 years out of office of which there is ample evidence.

It isn't hard at all to show Clinton was much more vocal about Bush then Bush is about Obama.
Actions speak louder than words.

[Rinualdo]

Clinton had douchebag staffers. Bush had criminal staffers.

What is the point?

[Gan]

Clinton had douchebag staffers. Bush had criminal staffers.

What is the point?

I seem to recall several people involved with the Clintons serving time. And one wound up dead.

What's your point?

[TheEschaton]

He committed suicide. If you think otherwise, you're an idiot.

And who served time in the Clinton administration? Or is your "people involved with" intentionally vague and specious?

-TheE-

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

The whole point of it was that it was well overblown. I may have overstated in implying that it was *all* made up, but it was certainly not what Bush et al made it out to be.

As for how "classy" the Bush transition to Obama was, consider the climates of these two times. In 2000, we saw a bitterly divisive election where one candidate won the popular vote and the other won the electoral vote, as decided by the SCOTUS divided on a partisan line, a decision which they said can never be used as precedent, and wasn't based on any other precedent. After years of made up investigations by the Republican Congress, millions of dollars spent investigating it, and one blow job and the lie used to cover that blow job up later, I find it hard to believe you find it incredible that the Clintonites were pissed at Bush.

Meanwhile, in 2008, Obama won soundly, and Bush was slinking out of office with the lowest approval ratings for a President since God knows when, leaving behind 2 wars (1 very unpopular), and a shattered economy. Yet you credit him for him for being "classy", when all he did was try to escape out the back door.

-TheE-

TheE has some axe to grind about Bush though, his hatred is palpable.

So now Bush is solely responsible for both wars (1 exceptionally popular at the time) and the economy. Not going to mention global warming? And the only thing you can fault the Clinton administration for is a blow job and perjury under oath(let's not kid ourselves and call it a lie)?

I don't even remember Bush himself specifically saying a thing about it at all.

[Tgo01]

And who served time in the Clinton administration? Or is your "people involved with" intentionally vague and specious?

Scooter Libby of course, and Bush was even big about it and pardoned him (http://www.theonion.com/video/in-thanksgiving-tradition-bush-pardons-scooter-lib,14292/).

[Firestorm Killa]

TheE has some axe to grind about Bush though, his hatred is palpable.

So now Bush is solely responsible for both wars (1 exceptionally popular at the time) and the economy. Not going to mention global warming? And the only thing you can fault the Clinton administration for is a blow job and perjury under oath(let's not kid ourselves and call it a lie)?

I don't even remember Bush himself specifically saying a thing about it at all.

You forgot to mention how Clinton also sold military secrets to the chinese. Probably how they came up with the carrier killer, and this stealth jet. It's amazing how a president can get away with crimes that others would serve time for or even be put to death for.

[Warriorbird]

You forgot to mention how Clinton also sold military secrets to the chinese. Probably how they came up with the carrier killer, and this stealth jet. It's amazing how a president can get away with crimes that others would serve time for or even be put to death for.

Thanks for the save, FK.

[Firestorm Killa]

Thanks for the save, FK.

No prob man I am here for you.

[Tgo01]

You forgot to mention how Clinton also sold military secrets to the chinese. Probably how they came up with the carrier killer, and this stealth jet. It's amazing how a president can get away with crimes that others would serve time for or even be put to death for.

Didn't they say the Chinese bought the parts of a downed US stealth jet and they reversed engineered it?

But that's not as interesting as saying Clinton sold them the secrets of course.

[TheEschaton]

Scooter Libby worked for Bush, retard.

[EasternBrand]

Well, Cheney really. But also, he wasn't pardoned.

[Tgo01]

Scooter Libby worked for Bush, retard.

Really? Next thing you'll tell me is Scooter Libby didn't really dress as a giant turkey in order to get pardoned.


Well, Cheney really. But also, he wasn't pardoned.

Holy shit!

[Rinualdo]

You forgot to mention how Clinton also sold military secrets to the chinese.

You sure about that?


Probably how they came up with the carrier killer
Which carrier killer are you referring to?


and this stealth jet.
You mean the jet that crashed and the Chinese bought up several of the components then reverse engineered?


t's amazing how a president can get away with crimes that others would serve time for or even be put to death for.
Yea, like Valerie Plame, invading a sovereign country, etc...

[Gan]

He committed suicide. If you think otherwise, you're an idiot.
Ok...



And who served time in the Clinton administration? Or is your "people involved with" intentionally vague and specious?

-TheE-
I misspoke. It was not people in his administration persay. It was associates of a different nature.

Jim Guy Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Guy_Tucker): Governor of Arkansas at the time, removed from office (fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud), 3 counts)
John Haley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Haley): attorney for Jim Guy Tucker (tax fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_fraud))
William J. Marks, Sr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Marks,_Sr.): Jim Guy Tucker business partner (conspiracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(crime)))
Stephen Smith (Whitewater) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Smith_(Whitewater)): former Governor Clinton aide (conspiracy to misapply funds). Bill Clinton pardoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton#Pardons).
Webster Hubbell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster_Hubbell): Clinton political supporter; Rose Law Firm partner (embezzlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embezzlement), fraud)
Jim McDougal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McDougal): banker, Clinton political supporter: (18 felonies, varied)
Susan McDougal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal): Clinton political supporter (multiple fraud) Bill Clinton pardoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton#Pardons).
David Hale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hale_(Whitewater)): banker, self proclaimed Clinton political supporter: (conspiracy, fraud)
Neal Ainley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Ainley): Perry County Bank president (embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign)
Chris Wade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Wade): Whitewater real estate broker (multiple loan fraud) Bill Clinton pardoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton#Pardons).
Larry Kuca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Kuca): Madison real estate agent (multiple loan fraud)
Robert W. Palmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Palmer): Madison appraiser (conspiracy). Bill Clinton pardoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton#Pardons).
John Latham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Latham_(Whitewater)): Madison Bank CEO (bank fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_fraud))
Eugene Fitzhugh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Fitzhugh): Whitewater defendant (multiple bribery)
Charles Matthews: Whitewater defendant (bribery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery))That's who I was thinking of at the time of my earlier post.

[~Rocktar~]

Didn't they say the Chinese bought the parts of a downed US stealth jet and they reversed engineered it?

But that's not as interesting as saying Clinton sold them the secrets of course.

Under the Clinton Administration, plans for our most advanced thermonuclear warhead were stolen by the Chinese. This is our smallest and most technically advanced nuke in the world, about the size of a couple of 3 liter soda bottles taped end to end, or smaller since no one outside of super high security clearances (and the Chinese) really know. Well documented on the web so you can google it.

Then there was the SALE of ballistic missile guidance technology to the Chinese under Clinton just a bit later. Also well documented for you to google.

And those are just off the top of my head.

[Warriorbird]

Under the Clinton Administration, plans for our most advanced thermonuclear warhead were stolen by the Chinese. This is our smallest and most technically advanced nuke in the world, about the size of a couple of 3 liter soda bottles taped end to end, or smaller since no one outside of super high security clearances (and the Chinese) really know. Well documented on the web so you can google it.

Then there was the SALE of ballistic missile guidance technology to the Chinese under Clinton just a bit later. Also well documented for you to google.

And those are just off the top of my head.

Clinton obviously made sure that the thermonuclear warhead was stolen. Obviously.

We totally sold our best technology to guide ballistic missiles too.

This is the type of stuff you know about when you're a secret agent working for Walmart.

[Parkbandit]

Scooter Libby worked for Bush, retard.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gWQaU40PH24/TKkxGtHTpXI/AAAAAAAAJcI/Yn7xpfYz8uk/s1600/wh-double-facepalm%5B1%5D.jpg

/dd 580 g

[Parkbandit]

Ok...


I misspoke. It was not people in his administration persay. It was associates of a different nature.

Jim Guy Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Guy_Tucker): Governor of Arkansas at the time, removed from office (fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud), 3 counts)
John Haley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Haley): attorney for Jim Guy Tucker (tax fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_fraud))
William J. Marks, Sr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Marks,_Sr.): Jim Guy Tucker business partner (conspiracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(crime)))
Stephen Smith (Whitewater) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Smith_(Whitewater)): former Governor Clinton aide (conspiracy to misapply funds). Bill Clinton pardoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton#Pardons).
Webster Hubbell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster_Hubbell): Clinton political supporter; Rose Law Firm partner (embezzlement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embezzlement), fraud)
Jim McDougal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McDougal): banker, Clinton political supporter: (18 felonies, varied)
Susan McDougal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal): Clinton political supporter (multiple fraud) Bill Clinton pardoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton#Pardons).
David Hale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hale_(Whitewater)): banker, self proclaimed Clinton political supporter: (conspiracy, fraud)
Neal Ainley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Ainley): Perry County Bank president (embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign)
Chris Wade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Wade): Whitewater real estate broker (multiple loan fraud) Bill Clinton pardoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton#Pardons).
Larry Kuca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Kuca): Madison real estate agent (multiple loan fraud)
Robert W. Palmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Palmer): Madison appraiser (conspiracy). Bill Clinton pardoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill_Clinton#Pardons).
John Latham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Latham_(Whitewater)): Madison Bank CEO (bank fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_fraud))
Eugene Fitzhugh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Fitzhugh): Whitewater defendant (multiple bribery)
Charles Matthews: Whitewater defendant (bribery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery))That's who I was thinking of at the time of my earlier post.

Didn't the President lose his law license for 5 years?

[Gan]

Yea, we don't have to even highlight Clinton's purgery or the revocation of his law license, or censorship.

[Rinualdo]

Yea, we don't have to even highlight Clinton's purgery or the revocation of his law license, or censorship.

All of which pale in comparison to Bush manufacturing a war and the thousands of American servicemen who died as a result.

[pabstblueribbon]

Tin-foil GIS image incoming.

[Parkbandit]

All of which pale in comparison to Bush manufacturing a war and the thousands of American servicemen who died as a result.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.

Hours earlier, the House approved an identical resolution, 296-133.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/

Let me guess.. you think Bush "manufactured" 9-11 too.......

You should really take a civics course on how our government works...

Congrats on stepping up the Backlash type stupidity in his absence though.

[Rinualdo]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.


And why did we think Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Who went to the UN and told them they had WMD?

[Gan]

And why did we think Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Who went to the UN and told them they had WMD?

George Bush had a secret personal vendetta against Saddam Hussein. And Dick Cheny (Anti-Christ) helped persuade him by using the dark side of the force and Sith mind tricks.

[Gan]

All of which pale in comparison to Bush manufacturing a war and the thousands of American servicemen who died as a result.

I'm waiting for the war criminal trials against Bush. I'm waiting for Obama to officially denounce and go after Bush and go after him criminally. I'll tell you a secret, it's not going to happen. And not because of politics or what party controls the House and Senate.

Or perhaps there's more to this than was is currently available for public knowledge.

We have already seen Obama back off things now that he has access to information he did not have while on the campaign trail. And we all know that unless it's through Wikileaks or leaked through intentional channels - there is information that we the general public are not privy to.

But to say unequivocally that Bush mislead a whole country and also the united nations into going into an unjust war is painfully naieve, especially without having all the information in front of you.

It's easy to armchair quarterback using hindsight.

Do you have the same opinion about Obama going after Afghanastan knowing full well that the Soviets already tried the same endeavor 20 years ago and failed miserably? Can you still justify the cost to our country?

[g++]

And why did we think Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Who went to the UN and told them they had WMD?

Colin Powell doesnt care about white people.

[AnticorRifling]

Why no mention of Clinton's Wag The Dog war action?

[pabstblueribbon]

I'm waiting for the war criminal trials against Bush. I'm waiting for Obama to officially denounce and go after Bush and go after him criminally. I'll tell you a secret, it's not going to happen. And not because of politics or what party controls the House and Senate.

Or perhaps there's more to this than was is currently available for public knowledge.

We have already seen Obama back off things now that he has access to information he did not have while on the campaign trail. And we all know that unless it's through Wikileaks or leaked through intentional channels - there is information that we the general public are not privy to.

But to say unequivocally that Bush mislead a whole country and also the united nations into going into an unjust war is painfully naieve, especially without having all the information in front of you.

It's easy to armchair quarterback using hindsight.

Do you have the same opinion about Obama going after Afghanastan knowing full well that the Soviets already tried the same endeavor 20 years ago and failed miserably? Can you still justify the cost to our country?

Afghanistan, Taliban, whoever. Who needs accuracy? R-team doesn't thats for sure. GOOO R-TEAM!

[g++]

Afghanistan, Taliban, whoever. Who needs accuracy? R-team doesn't thats for sure. GOOO R-TEAM!

That a pretty lame reponse to a good post. Gan makes alot of good points. The war was extremely popular across party lines until the general public got a healthy reminder of how much a real war sucks for 3 years. The whole "George Bush went to war with Iraq thing" is just a mixture of hindsight and the desire to not feel responsible for what this country did. It wasnt US it was that bush guy.

[Rinualdo]

I'm waiting for the war criminal trials against Bush. I'm waiting for Obama to officially denounce and go after Bush and go after him criminally. I'll tell you a secret, it's not going to happen. And not because of politics or what party controls the House and Senate.

Ample evidence (http://www.amazon.com/George-Bush-War-Criminal-Administrations/dp/0313364990) has been shown for Bush's liability in war crimes.




But to say unequivocally that Bush mislead a whole country and also the united nations into going into an unjust war is painfully naieve, especially without having all the information in front of you.


I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theory or such nonsense, but again, ample evidence exists to show Bush cherry picked intelligence of a dubious nature, failed to listen to those in the intelligence community about the nature of the intelligence, attempted to draw a link between 9/11 and Iraq (also noted in the 9/11 report as preposterous)

I believe Bush, for whatever reason, was pre-disposed to Iraq and wanted an excuse to invade. He took the opportunity.



We have already seen Obama back off things now that he has access to information he did not have while on the campaign trail. And we all know that unless it's through Wikileaks or leaked through intentional channels - there is information that we the general public are not privy to.

He backed off to pay attention to other issues and never stated he would attempt to prosecute Bush.
More importantly, this isn't an Obama v Bush issue. What Obama does or doesn't do isn't related to what Bush actually did. Obama can be judged, positively or negatively, on his own merits.


...especially without having all the information in front of you.

It's easy to armchair quarterback using hindsight.


In this case, I can comment as I do/did have access to a lot of, but certainly not all, of the information available. I can tell you without any political motivations at all, the sum of the pervasive feeling in the intelligence community during Clinton and Bush pre-Iraq is that there was widespread speculation that WMDs existed in a very diminished state. There was no concrete evidence to state unequivocly they existed, and certainly not enough to justify a war.

When Blix went in and reached the same conclusion, the entire intelligence community re-shifted focus and pre-conceived notions about suspected facilities.



Do you have the same opinion about Obama going after Afghanastan knowing full well that the Soviets already tried the same endeavor 20 years ago and failed miserably? Can you still justify the cost to our country?

Not sure what you mean about Obama going after Afghanistan.
I think the Soviets and the US had entirely different goals in Afghanistan. I fully support going in and kicking the shit out of AQ and the Taliban. I think our mission should have ended there. Fundamentally, I don't believe the US should be in the business of "nation building". My time in Afghanistan only heightened that belief.

[Rinualdo]

The war was extremely popular across party lines until the general public got a healthy reminder of how much a real war sucks for 3 years.

The war was extremely popular because the public was told that Saddam was a rogue leader in charge of a country with WMDs and a button that he could launch a missile at the US or its interests with WMDs and land in 45m.

The administration drew a direct link between Al-Quada and 9/11.

I firmly believe this is why the public supported it. Fear.

[pabstblueribbon]

That a pretty lame reponse to a good post. Gan makes alot of good points. The war was extremely popular across party lines until the general public got a healthy reminder of how much a real war sucks for 3 years. The whole "George Bush went to war with Iraq thing" is just a mixture of hindsight and the desire to not feel responsible for what this country did. It wasnt US it was that bush guy.

I disagree that it was a good post.



Originally Posted by Gan http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/dragon/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=1230858#post1230858)
Or perhaps there's more to this than was is currently available for public knowledge.

NO WAY, THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T GIVE US ALL THE DETAILS?? TIN-FOIL HAT TIME!!


Originally Posted by Gan http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/dragon/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=1230858#post1230858)
Do you have the same opinion about Obama going after Afghanastan knowing full well that the Soviets already tried the same endeavor 20 years ago and failed miserably? Can you still justify the cost to our country?


Really? Two totally different goals and different enemies. Nice subject change from Iraq to Afghanistan though.

[Gan]

I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theory or such nonsense, but again...
You should have stopped right there. You can't try to debunk one conspiracy while proposing another, inoright?



More importantly, this isn't an Obama v Bush issue. What Obama does or doesn't do isn't related to what Bush actually did. Obama can be judged, positively or negatively, on his own merits.
It has everything to do with how Obama treates actions already initiated by the prior administration and what his rhetoric was during the campaign trail when he was not privy to inside information. Nice try...




In this case, I can comment as I do/did have access to a lot of, but certainly not all, of the information available.
Oh lordy - we have another secret agent spy in our midst! Were you in on all the cabinet meetings too? ROFL


Fundamentally, I don't believe the US should be in the business of "nation building". My time in Afghanistan only heightened that belief.
Japan, South Korea and Germany thank you for your consideration.

Or could it be that we feel that it is a responsibility to try to clean up a mess we were involved in?

[~Rocktar~]

All of which pale in comparison to Bush manufacturing a war and the thousands of American servicemen who died as a result.

And the number of service persons killed in combat over the time frame is similar to the number that die every year previous to entry into combat, so do you want to find another line to QQ with?

Oh, and the real reason we are in Iraq is being born to light right now, in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere. To introduce democracy into the arab regions and break the monarchies and religious oligarchies that have fomented so much hate and damage world wide.

[g++]

The war was extremely popular because the public was told that Saddam was a rogue leader in charge of a country with WMDs and a button that he could launch a missile at the US or its interests with WMDs and land in 45m.

The administration drew a direct link between Al-Quada and 9/11.

I firmly believe this is why the public supported it. Fear.


I dont remember ever being told that Saddam had an intercontinental missile that could reach America in any way by anyone. Even at the time we were having arguments on this very board people knew Saddams capabilities to strike America were laughable. He had missiles that could hit Israel ..poorly. I do remember the whole biological and chemical weapons thing that Powell brought before the UN that turned out to be untrue. If that was the only reason congress voted to go to war then they are ummm you know fucking morons. The entire United States government had an epic fail. George Bush may have presented bad intelligence but its not exactly like he planted cocaine on Saddam and then pulled him over the evidence was gathered by our intelligence community and then presented. Its just a huge cop out by the entire country to look back on that one fact and try to shift blame off our society onto one man. The whole country should be embarressed.

[pabstblueribbon]

And the number of service persons killed in combat over the time frame is similar to the number that die every year previous to entry into combat, so do you want to find another line to QQ with?

Oh, and the real reason we are in Iraq is being born to light right now, in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere. To introduce democracy into the arab regions and break the monarchies and religious oligarchies that have fomented so much hate and damage world wide.

Because imposing our society and government type would never "forment" hate or damage world wide.

[Gan]

NO WAY, THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T GIVE US ALL THE DETAILS?? TIN-FOIL HAT TIME!!

So you are saying that you know every detail, all the facts, and all the information that our intelligence sources, heads of state and cabinet meeting details that went on regarding the decision to invade Iraq.

Riiight.


You don't even have executive access to decision making processes in the company you work for much less for the executive branch of the United States.

[pabstblueribbon]

So you are saying that you know every detail, all the facts, and all the information that our intelligence sources, heads of state and cabinet meeting details that went on regarding the decision to invade Iraq.


I'm not saying that at all. How you deduced that with my comment is a testament to your stupidity though.

I'm saying we don't have, nor probably will ever have, all of the information.

Congrats.

[Gan]

I'm not saying that at all. How you deduced that with my comment is a testament to your stupidity though.

I'm saying we don't have, nor probably will ever have, all of the information.

Congrats.
And yet you are still satisfied to pass judgement, even without all the information at hand. Ironic that you're calling me stupid.

[~Rocktar~]

Clinton obviously made sure that the thermonuclear warhead was stolen. Obviously.

We totally sold our best technology to guide ballistic missiles too.

This is the type of stuff you know about when you're a secret agent working for Walmart.

OK fucknugget, get to work on google and you will find out that several people in the Clinton administration were aware of Chinese efforts to steal tech, at the same time, the administration did nothing. In addition, several reports were made public about security actions and leaks all the while the administration did nothing and in fact, was buddying up more with China.

Now dipshit, Iraq before the war could produce their own home grown upgrades of 60s era soviet missiles that could hit a city from 600 miles, the Chinese have a space program and if they are buying information, you can bet that it is likely an improvement over what they had at the time so put 2 and 2 together and get 4, not some mush headed feel good answer. Before they had missiles that could reach the US and maybe hit a target, they now have them with improved aim and a weapon they previously didn't have that is smaller, lighter, much more powerful and able to be put on much smaller missiles. How, in any stretch of the imagination of your fevered empty head is this a good thing?

No secret agent stuff needed here, only the ability to follow the public news broadcasts and use google a little bit. I know it is hard for you to comprehend that I don't work at walmart anymore and don't feel the need to justify my existence or employment to you but do try. Even you can manage to use google from time to time.

[pabstblueribbon]

And yet you are still satisfied to pass judgement, even without all the information at hand. Ironic that you're calling me stupid.

Exactly what judgement did I pass?

The one where I judged you for being a fucking tool because you post tin-foil hats when anyone questions the motives of our government when the government itself does not give us all the information as you so eloquently demonstrated?

You are stupid.

[pabstblueribbon]

OK fucknugget, get to work on google and you will find out that several people in the Clinton administration were aware of Chinese efforts to steal tech, at the same time, the administration did nothing. In addition, several reports were made public about security actions and leaks all the while the administration did nothing and in fact, was buddying up more with China.

Now dipshit, Iraq before the war could produce their own home grown upgrades of 60s era soviet missiles that could hit a city from 600 miles, the Chinese have a space program and if they are buying information, you can bet that it is likely an improvement over what they had at the time so put 2 and 2 together and get 4, not some mush headed feel good answer. Before they had missiles that could reach the US and maybe hit a target, they now have them with improved aim and a weapon they previously didn't have that is smaller, lighter, much more powerful and able to be put on much smaller missiles. How, in any stretch of the imagination of your fevered empty head is this a good thing?

No secret agent stuff needed here, only the ability to follow the public news broadcasts and use google a little bit. I know it is hard for you to comprehend that I don't work at walmart anymore and don't feel the need to justify my existence or employment to you but do try. Even you can manage to use google from time to time.

I am waiting with baited breath for your excellent google skills to manufacture a reply in the Chinese Molten Salt Reactor thread.

[Latrinsorm]

Oh, and the real reason we are in Iraq is being born to light right now, in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere. To introduce democracy into the arab regions and break the monarchies and religious oligarchies that have fomented so much hate and damage world wide.You think Iraq's government is less religious now? Do you have any evidence that suggests these revolutions are direct results of American influence as opposed to internal developments?

[Rinualdo]

You should have stopped right there. You can't try to debunk one conspiracy while proposing another, inoright?

Don't be ridiculous. I didn't propose any conspiracy.




It has everything to do with how Obama treates actions already initiated by the prior administration and what his rhetoric was during the campaign trail when he was not privy to inside information. Nice try...

Not really, but doesn't Obama want to get out of Iraq? Isn't he ended the combat missing on 31 Aug?



Oh lordy - we have another secret agent spy in our midst! Were you in on all the cabinet meetings too? ROFL


Of course I wasn't and never intimated I did. Pro tip- Cabinet meetings are where information gets turned into decisions. I said I had access to a lot, but not all, of the information those decisions were based on.



Japan, South Korea and Germany thank you for your consideration.


Huh?

[Rinualdo]

And the number of service persons killed in combat over the time frame is similar to the number that die every year previous to entry into combat, so do you want to find another line to QQ with?

WTF are you talking about?




Oh, and the real reason we are in Iraq is being born to light right now, in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere. To introduce democracy into the arab regions and break the monarchies and religious oligarchies that have fomented so much hate and damage world wide.

Except that wasn't the rationale that was used to convince the American people Saddam had to go.


I dont remember ever being told that Saddam had an intercontinental missile that could reach America in any way by anyone.

I believe I used poor phrasing here. I said US and its interests- I was not referring to the Continental US, but US allies and US bases (Diego Garcia, Bahrain, etc..) in the region. There were several quotes by the administration at the time covering these threats to the US directly.

Here's a link (http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/kfiles/b24970.html) to some of them.

Here's some of my favorites:

"Saddam Hussein possesses chemical and biological weapons. Iraq poses a threat to the security of our people and to the stability of the world that is distinct from any other. It's a danger to its neighbors, to the United States, to the Middle East and to the international peace and stability. It's a danger we cannot ignore. Iraq and North Korea are both repressive dictatorships to be sure and both pose threats. But Iraq is unique. In both word and deed, Iraq has demonstrated that it is seeking the means to strike the United States and our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/20/03

"Saddam Hussein is a threat to America."
• President Bush, 11/3/02

"Some have argued that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent - that Saddam is at least 5-7 years away from having nuclear weapons. I would not be so certain. And we should be just as concerned about the immediate threat from biological weapons. Iraq has these weapons."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/18/02

And Bonus edit:
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_cr/s012804b.html

Excerpt from the Congressional record of Senator Nelson:


I, along with nearly every Senator in this Chamber, in that secure
room of this Capitol complex, was not only told there were weapons of
mass destruction--specifically chemical and biological--but I was
looked at straight in the face and told that Saddam Hussein had the
means of delivering those biological and chemical weapons of mass
destruction by unmanned drones, called UAVs, unmanned aerial vehicles.
Further, I was looked at straight in the face and told that UAVs could
be launched from ships off the Atlantic coast to attack eastern
seaboard cities of the United States.
Is it any wonder that I concluded there was an imminent peril to the
United States? The first public disclosure of that information occurred
perhaps a couple of weeks later, when the information was told to us.
It was prior to the vote on the resolution and it was in a highly
classified setting in a secure room. But the first public disclosure of
that information was when the President addressed the Nation on TV. He
said that Saddam Hussein possessed UAVs.

[Rinualdo]

And yet you are still satisfied to pass judgement, even without all the information at hand. Ironic that you're calling me stupid.

How about the people who did have access to the same information and drew the same conclusion- there was no justification for war? How about the report from Hans Blix stating no WMDs existed and hadn't for quite some time? Do their decisions not count?

[~Rocktar~]

You think Iraq's government is less religious now? Do you have any evidence that suggests these revolutions are direct results of American influence as opposed to internal developments?

Where did I, at any time, introduce the proposition that it was religious?

[~Rocktar~]

WTF are you talking about?

Simple moron, the number of deaths of troops in combat over time has not greatly exceeded the number of deaths in the military of troops during non-combat periods. The number of injuries and such is very much higher, but you want to spout about deaths and it is simply wrong. I am pretty sure that I posed an article about it a while back.




Except that wasn't the rationale that was used to convince the American people Saddam had to go.

And taking over 1/6th of the American economy to facilitate even more regulation, taxation and enslavement of the people wasn't the rationale used to convince people to pass health care reform either, what's your point?

[Rinualdo]

Simple moron, the number of deaths of troops in combat over time has not greatly exceeded the number of deaths in the military of troops during non-combat periods. The number of injuries and such is very much higher, but you want to spout about deaths and it is simply wrong. I am pretty sure that I posed an article about it a while back.


You really can't be this stupid. Its not functionally possible.



And taking over 1/6th of the American economy to facilitate even more regulation, taxation and enslavement of the people wasn't the rationale used to convince people to pass health care reform either, what's your point?

Taking over... enslavement... taxation...

You really have drunk the kool-aid, haven't you?

[Parkbandit]

And why did we think Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Who went to the UN and told them they had WMD?

Do you believe that George Bush made everything up?

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002

"(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

"Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002

"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam’s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq’s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration’s policy towards Iraq, I don’t think there can be any question about Saddam’s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002

[~Rocktar~]

You really can't be this stupid. Its not functionally possible.

Yes it is, just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it impossible.




Taking over... enslavement... taxation...

You really have drunk the kool-aid, haven't you?

I don't drink that much kool-aid but you do if you think that the Liberal/Socialist mantra of more government is good is about anything else.

[Rinualdo]

Do you believe that George Bush made everything up?


I never suggested he made anything up. He cherry picked and picked the information to suit his agenda, much as you have done on this message board.

Much of the quotes here fail to take into account the timeline nor do they account for the cyclic nature of the information.

During Clinton years, as has been stated numerous times here, there was widespread speculation that Iraq had WMD.
This point isn't up for debate.


The debate begins when Bush took office, those same WMD's that were speculated to be in Saddam's inventory suddenly became a national threat to the US. (see quotes by Bush administration).

Then, in 2002, Hans Blix went into Iraq and didn't find any WMD. He reported as much.
This information was ignored by the Bush administration. Blix criticized the Bush administration for "dramatizing the threat of WMD to support the cause for war in Iraq"

For all the quotes you can find from the Clinton administration pre-Blix inspection, not once did Clinton suggest we invade Iraq. Why was this?


Yes it is, just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it impossible.


Are you seriously suggesting that the people who died and were injured from the Iraq war don't count because they would have died or been injured anyway?

[~Rocktar~]

Are you seriously suggesting that the people who died and were injured from the Iraq war don't count because they would have died or been injured anyway?

No moron, you missed what I said completely so here, I will dumb it down for you.


You focused greatly on how many people that have died and how great a number that is.

They died, in the line of duty, serving their country and the world in an important endeavor. It is tragic, it is a fact and I honor that.

I simply said that you are blowing the numbers out of line because the real number of deaths is not all that much more than the number of deaths that occur in the military anyway.

Does that clear it up for your or do you need me to dumb it down further?

[Rinualdo]

No moron, you missed what I said completely so here, I will dumb it down for you.


You focused greatly on how many people that have died and how great a number that is.

They died, in the line of duty, serving their country and the world in an important endeavor. It is tragic, it is a fact and I honor that.

I simply said that you are blowing the numbers out of line because the real number of deaths is not all that much more than the number of deaths that occur in the military anyway.

Does that clear it up for your or do you need me to dumb it down further?


Its mind numbing how much of an idiot you are.

[Parkbandit]

I never suggested he made anything up. He cherry picked and picked the information to suit his agenda, much as you have done on this message board.

Much of the quotes here fail to take into account the timeline nor do they account for the cyclic nature of the information.

During Clinton years, as has been stated numerous times here, there was widespread speculation that Iraq had WMD.
This point isn't up for debate.

So, the general consensus was that prior to 2002, there was little doubt that Iraq had WMD. Glad we agree.



The debate begins when Bush took office, those same WMD's that were speculated to be in Saddam's inventory suddenly became a national threat to the US. (see quotes by Bush administration).

Not really. They were considered a national threat back in the first Gulf War.. which is why it was put in that they would be nuclear inspections. You fail to remember how often Iraq fucked around with those inspections.


Then, in 2002, Hans Blix went into Iraq and didn't find any WMD. He reported as much.
This information was ignored by the Bush administration. Blix criticized the Bush administration for "dramatizing the threat of WMD to support the cause for war in Iraq"

Again, you conveniently forget all the problems we had with Iraq and getting their facilities inspected.



For all the quotes you can find from the Clinton administration pre-Blix inspection, not once did Clinton suggest we invade Iraq. Why was this?

I would say you can't possibly be serious, but given your stupidity in the rest of this thread.... yea.

[Gelston]

No moron, you missed what I said completely so here, I will dumb it down for you.


You focused greatly on how many people that have died and how great a number that is.

They died, in the line of duty, serving their country and the world in an important endeavor. It is tragic, it is a fact and I honor that.

I simply said that you are blowing the numbers out of line because the real number of deaths is not all that much more than the number of deaths that occur in the military anyway.

Does that clear it up for your or do you need me to dumb it down further?


You realize that those deaths that occur from non-combat related incidents don't just stop during war time right? We have those deaths AND the combat related ones, so no, we are not losing the same number as prewar years.

[Parkbandit]

Its mind numbing how much of an idiot you are.

I was just thinking the same exact thing about you.

Between the Inauguration was 'widely speculated' to be delayed to Iraq having an ICMB that could hit the US to 'well Clinton never threatened to invade Iraq, what now'.. you've managed to make Rocktar look pretty normal.

[BriarFox]

Bush’s Daughter, in a Break, Endorses Gay Marriage


The Bush dynasty is no stranger to generational conflict: father and son differed over deposing Saddam Hussein, raising taxes and the role of the United Nations.

Now it is father and daughter who find themselves at odds over a weighty issue.

Barbara Bush, one of the twin daughters of George W. Bush, will endorse same-sex marriage on Tuesday, publicly breaking ranks with a father who, as president, pushed for a constitutional amendment banning such unions.

Ms. Bush, 29, has taped a video calling on New York to legalize gay marriage. A bill to do that was defeated in the state in 2009. She describes the issue as a matter of conscience and equality.

“I am Barbara Bush, and I am a New Yorker for marriage equality,” she says in the brief message, sponsored by an advocacy group. “New York is about fairness and equality. And everyone should have the right to marry the person that they love.”

The video ends with Ms. Bush, who lives in Manhattan, imploring the state’s residents to “join us.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/01/us/politics/01bush.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha23

[Rinualdo]

I was just thinking the same exact thing about you.

Between the Inauguration was 'widely speculated' to be delayed to Iraq having an ICMB that could hit the US to 'well Clinton never threatened to invade Iraq, what now'.. you've managed to make Rocktar look pretty normal.

Good thing you didn't refute with facts.
I said ICBM? Pretty sure I didn't.

The whole concept of Iraq hitting the US with WMDs is pretty ridiculous, huh? Its a shame the Bush administration used that very fear as a pretense to war.

See previous quotes and Senator Nelson for reference.

[Parkbandit]

Good thing you didn't refute with facts.
I said ICBM? Pretty sure I didn't.

Here is what you said:


The war was extremely popular because the public was told that Saddam was a rogue leader in charge of a country with WMDs and a button that he could launch a missile at the US or its interests with WMDs and land in 45m.


Please tell me what missile Iraq had that wasn't an "INTERCONTINENTAL" ballistic missile. Do you know what the definition of intercontinental is?

How about I start refuting with facts.. when you actually present some?



The whole concept of Iraq hitting the US with WMDs is pretty ridiculous, huh? Its a shame the Bush administration used that very fear as a pretense to war.

Source please.. that was from the Bush administration stating that Iraq had the capability of hitting the US with a nuclear missile.



See previous quotes and Senator Nelson for reference.

Reference of what? Like I said, you make Rocktar look more and more normal everyday.. and that's pretty fucking hard.

[Rinualdo]

Read. Comprehend. Analyze.


I want to take this occasion to inform the Senate of specific
information that I was given, which turns out not to be true. I was one
of 77 Senators who voted for the resolution in October of 2002 to
authorize the expenditure of funds for the President to engage in an
attack on Iraq. I voted for it. I want to tell you some specific
information that I received that had a great deal of bearing on my
conclusion to vote for that resolution. There were other factors, but
this information was very convincing to me that there was an imminent
peril to the interests of the United States.
I, along with nearly every Senator in this Chamber, in that secure
room of this Capitol complex, was not only told there were weapons of
mass destruction--specifically chemical and biological--but I was
looked at straight in the face and told that Saddam Hussein had the
means of delivering those biological and chemical weapons of mass
destruction by unmanned drones, called UAVs, unmanned aerial vehicles.
Further, I was looked at straight in the face and told that UAVs could
be launched from ships off the Atlantic coast to attack eastern
seaboard cities of the United States.
Is it any wonder that I concluded there was an imminent peril to the
United States? The first public disclosure of that information occurred
perhaps a couple of weeks later, when the information was told to us.
It was prior to the vote on the resolution and it was in a highly
classified setting in a secure room. But the first public disclosure of
that information was when the President addressed the Nation on TV. He
said that Saddam Hussein possessed UAVs.
Later, the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, in his presentation to
the United Nations, in a very dramatic and effective presentation,
expanded that and suggested the possibility that UAVs could be launched
against the homeland, having been transported out of Iraq. The
information was made public, but it was made public after we had
already voted on the resolution, and at the time there was nothing to
contradict that.
We now know, after the fact and on the basis of Dr. Kay's testimony
today in the Senate Armed Services Committee, that the information was
false; and not only that there were not weapons of mass destruction--
chemical and biological--but there was no fleet of UAVs, unmanned
aerial vehicles, nor was there any capability of putting UAVs on ships
and transporting them to the Atlantic coast and launching them at U.S.
cities on the eastern seaboard.
I am upset that the degree of specificity I was given a year and a
half ago, prior to my vote, was not only inaccurate; it was patently
false. I want some further explanations.
Now, what I have found after the fact--and I presented this to Dr.
Kay this morning in the Senate Armed Services Committee--is there was a
vigorous dispute within the intelligence community as to what the CIA
had concluded was accurate about those UAVs and about their ability to
be used elsewhere outside of Iraq. Not only was it in vigorous dispute,
there was an outright denial that the information was accurate. That
was all within the intelligence community.
But I didn't find that out before my vote. I wasn't told that. I
wasn't told that there was a vigorous debate going on as to whether or
not that was accurate information. I was given that information as if
it were fact, and any reasonable person then would logically conclude
that the interests of the United States and its people were in
immediate jeopardy and peril. That has turned out not to be true.

Does that help?

[pabstblueribbon]

Read. Comprehend. Analyze.

I don't think Parkbandit or g++ are capable honestly. I think we're wasting our time.

[g++]

Are we eating into the time you use to stalk people?

[Warriorbird]

Do you believe that George Bush made everything up?

Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and a source who liked money. All occurring near the end of the massive gap in your wall of text but pre the quotes after.

[pabstblueribbon]

Are we eating into the time you use to stalk people?

I'm sitting in a hotel room in Texas. Big ice storm. No trains for me to work on, but I have to be here in case there are any problems.

Whats your excuse?

I don't get the stalker reference.

[Rinualdo]

I don't think Parkbandit or g++ are capable honestly. I think we're wasting our time.

Probably a very true statement.

[Parkbandit]

Read. Comprehend. Analyze.

Does that help?

It would help out far more if you learned how to use a link... that way we could actually see the source and not have to guess who "I" is. But heck, let's play!

My guess:

"I" is a Democrat who had an axe to grind.. he/she was trying to excuse his/her yes vote for the Iraq War and was trying to get re-elected in a liberal district.

Now.. maybe you should try giving us some quotes where Bush said that Iraq could hit the US with WMDs. I mean, you made the claim that this is why the majority of the population was for the Iraq war... so it should be very easy to back up that claim.

[Rinualdo]

It would help out far more if you learned how to use a link... that way we could actually see the source and not have to guess who "I" is. But heck, let's play!

My guess:

"I" is a Democrat who had an axe to grind.. he/she was trying to excuse his/her yes vote for the Iraq War and was trying to get re-elected in a liberal district.

Now.. maybe you should try giving us some quotes where Bush said that Iraq could hit the US with WMDs. I mean, you made the claim that this is why the majority of the population was for the Iraq war... so it should be very easy to back up that claim.


Again, reading comprehension ftw...

Link provided in post 114, as were the numerous public statements by Bush and officials about the threat of Iraq to the US, its interests and the world. When you say that Saddam is a threat to the US, as pointed out in numerous quotes, what other conclusion do you expect the US public to draw?

[Parkbandit]

Again, reading comprehension ftw...

Link provided in post 114, as were the numerous public statements by Bush and officials about the threat of Iraq to the US.

While I appreciate the ironic effort of post 114 being Rocktar's, you still haven't proven a single claim.

Here is your quote:


The war was extremely popular because the public was told that Saddam was a rogue leader in charge of a country with WMDs and a button that he could launch a missile at the US or its interests with WMDs and land in 45m.


Now, I'm simply asking for a quote from the Bush Administration that Iraq had the capability of hitting the US with a WMD. Not a Senator fabricating a story for why he voted yes. Not from someone on the TV circuit with a book to sell.... an actual quote from a Bush Administration official while he/she was in office.

It can't possibly be that tough.. given that it was "extremely popular because the public was told that".....

[Rinualdo]

Bugger- it was post 119.

I'll make it easy for you. See the part where I said "the US or its interests"?

Perhaps you missed this thread

I believe I used poor phrasing here. I said US and its interests- I was not referring to the Continental US, but US allies and US bases (Diego Garcia, Bahrain, etc..) in the region. There were several quotes by the administration at the time covering these threats to the US directly.

Here's a link to some of them.

Here's some of my favorites:

"Saddam Hussein possesses chemical and biological weapons. Iraq poses a threat to the security of our people and to the stability of the world that is distinct from any other. It's a danger to its neighbors, to the United States, to the Middle East and to the international peace and stability. It's a danger we cannot ignore. Iraq and North Korea are both repressive dictatorships to be sure and both pose threats. But Iraq is unique. In both word and deed, Iraq has demonstrated that it is seeking the means to strike the United States and our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/20/03

"Saddam Hussein is a threat to America."
• President Bush, 11/3/02

"Some have argued that the nuclear threat from Iraq is not imminent - that Saddam is at least 5-7 years away from having nuclear weapons. I would not be so certain. And we should be just as concerned about the immediate threat from biological weapons. Iraq has these weapons."
• Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 9/18/02

And Bonus edit:
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_cr/s012804b.html

Here's a bonus story (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/?source=whitelist) about the CIA analysts who also claimed Bush lied.
I suppose they just have an axe to grind or the book circuit as well, egh? It must be nice to dismiss every shred of evidence.

[Warriorbird]

Bugger- it was post 119.

I'll make it easy for you. See the part where I said "the US or its interests"?

Perhaps you missed this thread

Here's a bonus story (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/?source=whitelist) about the CIA analysts who also claimed Bush lied.
I suppose they just have an axe to grind or the book circuit as well, egh? It must be nice to dismiss every shred of evidence.

I follow you for the most part. I'm just not sure that it all ultimately leads to Bush. I'm not sure that's actually to his credit.

[Parkbandit]

So, you used "poor phrasing" in another thread.. but decided to use it again in this one?

Like I said.. you are the liberal Rocktar. It's ok, because it balances out the teams.

[Warriorbird]

balances out the teams.

I think we're more like Congress than ESPN, sadly.

[Rinualdo]

Maybe I've gotten it all wrong.


http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/2d3d30d5-a601-46f4-b910-21c9458f4dc6.jpg

[Warriorbird]

Maybe I've gotten it all wrong.


http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/2d3d30d5-a601-46f4-b910-21c9458f4dc6.jpg

Exactly.

[Gan]

Just remember these words and everything will be allright.

"Its all Bush's fault."

Leaky faucet? It's Bush's fault.

Dog shits the carpet? It's Bush's fault.

Get your girlfriend pregnant? It's Bush's fault.

Lose your iPhone? It's Bush's fault.

Car accident? It's Bush's fault.

See how easy that is?

[Warriorbird]

Just remember these words and everything will be allright.

"Its all Bush's fault."

Leaky faucet? It's Bush's fault.

Dog shits the carpet? It's Bush's fault.

Get your girlfriend pregnant? It's Bush's fault.

Lose your iPhone? It's Bush's fault.

Car accident? It's Bush's fault.

See how easy that is?

Archived PC post titles.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5017/5390167927_7fde193a24_b.jpg

Notice something? If anything, apart from the Obama-vious, mocking Palin is the new blaming Bush.

[EasternBrand]

Just remember these words and everything will be allright.

"Its all Bush's fault."

Leaky faucet? It's Bush's fault.

Dog shits the carpet? It's Bush's fault.

Get your girlfriend pregnant? It's Bush's fault.

Lose your iPhone? It's Bush's fault.

Car accident? It's Bush's fault.

See how easy that is?

Come on, man. Way to overstate your position. I mean, no one is going to believe that Clinton didn't knock up your girlfriend.

[Keller]

Like I said.. you are the liberal Rocktar. It's ok, because it balances out the teams.

That is a serious accusation.

[Gan]

Come on, man. Way to overstate your position. I mean, no one is going to believe that Clinton didn't knock up your girlfriend.

"I did not have sex with that woman."
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z23/cnredd/clinton_cartoon.jpg

[Parkbandit]

Archived PC post titles.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5017/5390167927_7fde193a24_b.jpg

Notice something? If anything, apart from the Obama-vious, mocking Palin is the new blaming Bush.

To be honest, you can't just use the titles. Many titles that don't include Bush end up with him being blamed somehow for something.

Let's look at some recent ones...

"Federal Judge Rules Obamacare mandate Unconstitutional." BUSH STOLE THE 2000 ELECTION!

"The (Expensive) Epidemic in Urban Schools" - BUSH'S FAULT! HE WANTS KIDS TO ABSTAIN!

"State of the Union 2011" - BUSH USED MORE MEAN WORDS IN HIS THIRD SPEECH THAN OBAMA DID!!!

"House GOP Lists $2.5 Trillion in Spending Cuts" - IT'S BUSH'S FAULT WE HAVE TO CUT!!

"Rep. Giffords killed" - IT'S BUSH'S FAULT BECAUSE HE FORCED MARY LANDRIEU TO THREATEN HIM BECAUSE HE'S SO STUPID!

"The Progressive climate of hate, a violent history of the recent past." - IF BUSH WASN'T THE WORST PRESIDENT EVER HE WOULDNT HAVE MOVIES MADE OF HIS ASSASSINATION!

"Foreigners Should Not Vote in the House of Representatives" - BUSH'S BAILOUTS WON'T BE PAID BACK!!

"Court Says Okay to Show Nudity on Teevee" - NO ONE LIKES HAIRY BUSH, TRIM THAT SHIT!!!!!

" Mitch "the Blade" Daniels" - BUSH NICKNAMED HIM "THE BLADE"! HATE SPEECH!! WE NEED TO TONE DOWN THE VIOLENT VITRIOL!!!

" Social Security Withholdings Reduced to 4.2% for 2010" - BUSH HATED OLD PEOPLE WHICH IS WHY HE WANTED SS REFORM!!

"Glenn Beck's Top 15 Lies of 2010 " - BUSH FORCED BECK TO LIE BECAUSE HE APPOINTED FAT CAT BANKERS, NOT OBAMA!!!!!

"Hawaii Governor on Mission to Attack Birthers " - WHAT ABOUT TRYING BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES!?!?!?

"Liberal Katie Couric Put in her place By Condoleeza " - BUSH TOOK US TO WAR!!!

"The Tax Deal" - A BIRD IN A HAND IS WORTH MORE THAN 2 BUSHES!!!!

[Warriorbird]

I see where you were trying to go with that and I'm gonna let you finish but a bunch of those are strange edits of Republican posts as though to somehow back up your theme or things that were never said.

[Keller]

I see where you were trying to go with that but a bunch of those are strange edits of Republican posts as though to somehow back up your theme or things that were never said.

Speaking of backing up, I don't think he's going to get the chance.

http://cdn.best.complex.com/assets/images/lists/animated-gifs/029.gif

[Gan]

haha awesome. See how it peeled away the driver side doors as the roof collapsed? I bet the driver shit their pants when it all came down.

[droit]

I bet the driver shit their pants when it all came down.

You mean right before he died? Or after?

[Gelston]

You mean right before he died? Or after?

Oh, he wasn't hurt. http://www.klewtv.com/home/video/25476014.html?video=pop&t=a