EPA looking to ban lead ammunition.

[Parkbandit]

Lead, for centuries the core ingredient of ammunition, is now coming under attack itself.

As the American military begins to embrace “green bullets,” environmental groups are pushing state and federal officials to ban the use of lead in hunters’ guns and fishermen’s tackle.

Their goal is to protect both the animals that scavenge the carcasses of hunted prey and the people who consume meat from hunting expeditions.

On Tuesday, the Center for Biological Diversity and the American Bird Conservancy plan to file a petition with the Environmental Protection Agency seeking a comprehensive nationwide ban on lead-based sporting ammunition and fishing tackle.

The petitioners argue that “it is now incontrovertible fact” that lead fragments in the bodies of animals shot with lead bullets or lead pellets are “a serious source of lead exposure to scavenging animals” and a health risk to humans who eat hunters’ kills.

Scientists have found that chronic lead poisoning in birds leads to “appetite loss, anemia, anorexia, reproductive or neurological impairment, immune suppression, weakness, and susceptibility to predation and starvation,” the petition said.

Lead’s toxicity has long been known, and most of the uses that led to human exposure, like the manufacture of lead paint, have been banned for decades. Lead ammunition consumed only about 3 percent of the 6.4 million tons of lead used worldwide in 2000, according to a 2003 report by the Nordic Council of Ministers.

Michael Fry, a wildlife toxicologist who directs conservation advocacy for the American Bird Conservancy, said that even sub-lethal levels of lead in condors, bald eagles and other raptors can be debilitating, affecting their ability to fly and avoid collisions.

But hunting organizations dispute the dimensions of the problem. Larry Keane, the vice president and general counsel of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, said the petition was “fundamentally flawed as a matter of science.”

“You don’t manage harm to individual animals,” he said in an interview. “Wildlife biologists manage wildlife populations.”

Populations of eagles, one of the raptors cited by the petition as being at risk, are soaring, Mr. Keane added.

Jeff Miller, a conservation advocate at the Center for Biological Diversity, said several regional bird populations were indeed affected by ingesting lead ammunition or fishing tackle, including the endangered Mississippi sandhilll crane; eiders in Alaska, which are listed as threatened by the Interior Department; and trumpeter swans, considered species of concern in the Rocky Mountain West.

“If we had to show major population-level effects on many species to evaluate anything that caused ecological harm, we’d never ban anything,” he said. “There is compelling evidence of harm to many species, and there are alternatives. It doesn’t make sense to continue with it.”

Ammunition manufacturers have long experimented with alternatives to traditional bullets. Bullets made from copper, bismuth and various alloys have been under development for 20 years or more. In June, the Army announced that it was shipping one million rounds of a new 5.56-mm lead-free cartridge that had been in development for a decade to its troops in Afghanistan.

But most sporting ammunition still comes in the form of copper-jacketed lead, which is dense, the better to carry the energy of the shot downrange, and malleable, the better to expand on impact, increasing the bullet’s lethality.

Nationally, the chief existing regulation on the domestic use of lead ammunition is a 19-year-old Interior Department ban on the use of lead shot to hunt waterfowl in wetlands, according to the groups’ petition. California has banned the use of lead ammunition in the range of the endangered California condor.

Richard Patterson, the managing director of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, an industry-supported technical organization, dismissed the arguments made in the environmental groups’ petition as “inflammatory, throw-it-against-the-wall material.”

The petitioners counter that hunters and fishermen should not cause lead poisoning in animals they are not even seeking to kill.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/science/earth/03lead.html

"Guns? Heck no, we don't want to ban guns in this country. We just want to ban all ammunition!"

[ClydeR]

Clear violation of the 2nd amendment.

[AnticorRifling]

Having done no research on the subject I'm curious as to the ballists of the new bullet as compared to the old standard. What's the cost difference? If the stopping power is equal and the price is comprable great have a blast. To me I think it's someone with a vested interest in the new bullet pushing the old as evironment killers. Hunters generally don't leave their kills to be scavaged so I have a hard time believing that as a huge cause towards this issue.

[NocturnalRob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4DnNKKIfrM

[ClydeR]

If bullets can be made out of other things than lead, what does it matter? Does the sentimentality a few hunters have over the element their bullets are made out of trump the havoc the lead causes?

The "Green Bullet" was designed, for US military use, to be just as lethal without bringing environmental harm. Not a liberal conspiracy to outlaw guns. :rolleyes:

http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/Pages/Goodfortheenvironment,badfortheenemy.aspx

Oh it matters. The Constitution is not a "living document" like you liberal Democrats think it is. The words in the Constitution mean what the Founders intended when they adopted it. When they said "arms" they meant lead bullets. I can 110% guarantee you they were not thinking about "green bullets."

[g++]

Well...if the army says it has more stopping power than a lead bullet im inclined to believe them. Seems like a pretty good idea to me. A nickle more per shell seems like a pretty reasonable request to not spray lead everywhere.

[AnticorRifling]

So do we have to go back to flint locks and muzzle loaders?!

[AnticorRifling]

Well...if the army says it has more stopping power than a lead bullet im inclined to believe them. Seems like a pretty good idea to me. A nickle more per shell seems like a pretty reasonable request to not spray lead everywhere.

At a nickel per shell of what size?! This will add close to 500 to my ammo bill.....oh well the kids don't need shoes I guess.

[g++]

Read the article Ashley posted. It costs a nickle more to produce green bullets but for the army it actually is offset just by range clean up being less toxic. Yes I know you are joking.

[Cephalopod]

Personally, I believe the Founding Fathers intended for every citizen to have musket, and I think that's what we should stick to. Let's see those gang-bangers do a drive-by with one of those. Use the gun all you want, but you better be able to pack your balls in powder.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

The best powder to pack your balls in is a 50/50 mix of the following:

http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/images/unsweetened_cocoa.jpg

http://open.salon.com/files/powdered_sugar1255618988.jpg

[NocturnalRob]

You'd probably complain less about the size if I did.

edit: BECAUSE THEY'RE SO BIG!

[AnticorRifling]

Read the article Ashley posted. It costs a nickle more to produce green bullets but for the army it actually is offset just by range clean up being less toxic. Yes I know you are joking.

Hmm. I read the article it says it's better than a 7.62mm against "certain targets" wtf list them!

I'm curious what range cleanup costs are because I always remember taking off my cover and filling it with brass. The lead is in the dirt behind the pits. I'm guessing they have to extract the lead to keep it from doing some contamination or something just never really thought of the cost involved (especially if you're using the military labor to do it quit contracting shit out).


And yeah not kidding I've burned thru probably 500 rounds this season and that's because I've been busy and haven't gotten to shoot near as much as normal. Figure my last bulk .223 buy was 1,000 rounds back in March so I should be good for the rest of the year. .308 is cheaper for me because I reload it but still going to be more cost involved as all rounds will move to this copper design.

[Clove]

I think what PB is trying to say here is:

Invest in copper!

[NocturnalRob]

Invest in copper!
Don't let Bob hear you. GOLD IS WHERE IT'S AT!

[g++]

Hmm. I read the article it says it's better than a 7.62mm against "certain targets" wtf list them!


“Test data has shown that the new enhanced performance round is more effective than the current ammunition against both personal targets as well as intermediate barriers, like windshields, light armored vehicles and concrete masonry,” Mazza said.

The certain targets part was for the testing of 7.6mm green ammunition. The above quote was in reference to the smaller ammunition I believe. Actually I misread it, the entire article was about 7.6 which is weird because in one sentence it says its better than the next it says against certain targets.

[Parkbandit]

If bullets can be made out of other things than lead, what does it matter? Does the sentimentality a few hunters have over the element their bullets are made out of trump the havoc the lead causes?

The "Green Bullet" was designed, for US military use, to be just as lethal without bringing environmental harm. Not a liberal conspiracy to outlaw guns. :rolleyes:

http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/Pages/Goodfortheenvironment,badfortheenemy.aspx

There are problems with making bullets out of other materials... topping the list is cost and stopping power. Name a material that you can make bullets out of that will have similar costs of lead and won't make the bullets armor piercing rounds.. which are illegal.

[g++]

Just man up and wear a flack jacket imo.

[Parkbandit]

Just man up and wear a flack jacket imo.

To be honest, I don't care if they ban lead in rounds... as long as they develop a cost effective material that has the same properties in bullets before hand.

It's not like I'm pro lead poisoning.

[Archigeek]

I was reading about this yesterday. The waterfowl ban has been in place for years, and it effectively means all waterfowl since in almost all cases you are hunting them in or next to wetlands. It does add quite a bit to the cost of shells, but other than that hunters seem to have adjusted pretty well to it. From a hunter's perspective, I'm not sure how I feel about extending the lead ban to all guns. One of the saddest parts about the waterfowl ban is that it basically means a lot of old guns can't be used anymore because the barrels can't handle harder metals.

As for fishing lures, we've had this sort of change before in fishing too, but this would be a pain in the rear regardless. I don't know if this is the case in all states, but quite a while back galvanized metal hooks were outlawed in Minnesota. Why? Because if you hook a fish and your line breaks, you want the hook to degrade and fall out and then the fish survives. Galvanized hooks didn't degrade well, so they were phased out. Now they're antiques. I view lead the same way: it's on the way out because fish swallow a ton of lead and either get sick and die, or we eat the fish, or the fish that ate the fish... it makes sense to phase out lead, as much as I loathe the idea of replacing all of my expensive tackle, particularly the muskie lures that cost a freakin' fortune already. The biggest pain though will be sinkers. I'll basically have to stop using split shot sinkers, but I think I can manage.

As far as range clean up is concerned, hazardous material clean up is unbelievably expensive. I've worked on a number of projects where the soil went through clean up, and the one that comes to mind where I can remember the numbers, the cost was about $55 a cubic yard for some very basic remediation, (incineration to eliminate fuel in the soil), and that was 15 years ago, so you're probably looking at $100 a cubic yard minimum for the most basic remediation. Lead removal probably costs a lot more.

[g++]

To be honest, I don't care if they ban lead in rounds... as long as they develop a cost effective material that has the same properties in bullets before hand.

It's not like I'm pro lead poisoning.

I was just joking. I certainly had not looked at it from the perspective of police and obviously that would be a huge concern the army does not have to worry about. Its a good point.

[AnticorRifling]

“Test data has shown that the new enhanced performance round is more effective than the current ammunition against both personal targets as well as intermediate barriers, like windshields, light armored vehicles and concrete masonry,” Mazza said.

The certain targets part was for the testing of 7.6mm green ammunition. The above quote was in reference to the smaller ammunition I believe. Actually I misread it, the entire article was about 7.6 which is weird because in one sentence it says its better than the next it says against certain targets.

Entire article is about 5.56 then it says it also did better than some 7.6mm against certain targets.

So it's better than current 5.56 against personel and intermediate barriers AND better than some 7.6 against certain targets.

I was hoping they would say which 7.6 and which targets.

[Latrinsorm]

At a nickel per shell of what size?! This will add close to 500 to my ammo bill.....oh well the kids don't need shoes I guess.Hello, if you have a gun you just take someone else's shoes. Jeez.

[AnticorRifling]

Hello, if you have a gun you just take someone else's shoes. Jeez.

Hmmm I like the way you think. Don't worry though your shoes are safe since I'm raising boys.


OH FUCKIN SNAP THAT JUST HAPPENED!!!! :)

[Clove]

Hmmm I like the way you think. Don't worry though your shoes are safe since I'm raising boys.Even the girls.

[Durgrimst]

If this leads to getting rid of the 5.56mm round as the mainstay of American Military then I am all about it as long as they are effective. The current 5.56 is not an effective round for the job IMO and in the eyes of countless studies and experts. The cost of revamping the military and making that change is probably fucking absurd and that is why the change has not gone into effect yet.

[AnticorRifling]

If this leads to getting rid of the 5.56mm round as the mainstay of American Military then I am all about it as long as they are effective. The current 5.56 is not an effective round for the job IMO and in the eyes of countless studies and experts. The cost of revamping the military and making that change is probably fucking absurd and that is why the change has not gone into effect yet. It's still going to be a 5.56 the way I read it.

[Durgrimst]

I only skimmed it, but their needs to be a change regardless.

[AnticorRifling]

Who knows, if they're saying this solid copper has more knockdown power it might be the change that's needed.

[Durgrimst]

I don't see how it could, lead is more dense so it has more mass, maybe is has more rapid expansion on impact?

p.s. thats what she said

[AnticorRifling]

I don't know I haven't read the ballistics on it yet.

And damn you for adding your own that's what she said fucker.

[Archigeek]

This makes me think of that bank robbery in California where the robbers had multiple automatic weapons with hundreds of rounds of ammo, full body armor and were firing at anything and everything that moved. The cops just didn't have anything handy with the power they needed to knock them down. I recall one scene in a documentary on it where one of the cops is basically on a shopping binge at a nearby gunshop, and shows up on site with a cart full of rifles just a little too late. Bad guys were already down, but man were a lot of shots fired.

[g++]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cMIVNntHs

[Drew]

5 cents more for the military in the bulk they buy is what, 25 cents more for the consumer who buys 100 rounds at a time?

[Durgrimst]

5 cents more for the military in the bulk they buy is what, 25 cents more for the consumer who buys 100 rounds at a time?

Hard to say, from the limited experience I have with seeing how military contracts work they either underpay to a point that is sad, or they pay out the ass. There is nothing that seems to be a fair price.

[Ardwen]

The bullets/shot that hit the intended target arent the issue, its the millions of rounds that are fired and miss, I live directly across a state highway from a very popular deer and turkey hunting area, thers times of the year you can literally see the spent rounds littering popular clearings. Course if most hunters actually learned how to shoot this wouldnt be an issue.

[Archigeek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cMIVNntHs

One of the better examples of video of that. 1100 rounds fired. Sheesh. No one had a rifle with a scope; that amazes me. You have to give the cops credit though for staying in there while bullets are flying everywhere. Both of the robbers ended up dead, the second one had 29 bullet wounds.

[Durgrimst]

One of the better examples of video of that. 1100 rounds fired. Sheesh. No one had a rifle with a scope; that amazes me. You have to give the cops credit though for staying in there while bullets are flying everywhere. Both of the robbers ended up dead, the second one had 29 bullet wounds.

From those distances you really don't need a scope, you just need better training on how to use your weapon.

I suppose she said that as well

[Stanley Burrell]

I sincerely doubt this will gain any attention that warrants directly correlated physical action by the EPA.

[Archigeek]

From those distances you really don't need a scope, you just need better training on how to use your weapon.

I'm not really going to get into the training of the LAPD, but one average sniper, one round apiece and it's all over from a relatively safe distance.

[Stanley Burrell]

This makes me think of that bank robbery in California where the robbers had multiple automatic weapons with hundreds of rounds of ammo, full body armor and were firing at anything and everything that moved. The cops just didn't have anything handy with the power they needed to knock them down. I recall one scene in a documentary on it where one of the cops is basically on a shopping binge at a nearby gunshop, and shows up on site with a cart full of rifles just a little too late. Bad guys were already down, but man were a lot of shots fired.

A few M-16 Civilian shots ended it, IIRC.

Edit: I just watched that video again for the first time in twelve years and I think the story has changed.

[Clove]

This makes me think of that bank robbery in California where the robbers had multiple automatic weapons with hundreds of rounds of ammo, full body armor and were firing at anything and everything that moved. The cops just didn't have anything handy with the power they needed to knock them down. I recall one scene in a documentary on it where one of the cops is basically on a shopping binge at a nearby gunshop, and shows up on site with a cart full of rifles just a little too late. Bad guys were already down, but man were a lot of shots fired.I believe that was Heat. Robert Di Niro. Al Pacino.

[Archigeek]

I believe that was Heat. Robert Di Niro. Al Pacino.

The shoot out at the end of Heat was pretty amazing. I'm pretty sure they modeled it in part after the real robbery we've been discussing. Watch the youtube link: automatic weapons with cylinder clips and a trunk full of more guns and ammo, full body armor, etc etc. Craziness.

[g++]

The shoot out at the end of Heat was pretty amazing. I'm pretty sure they modeled it in part after the real robbery we've been discussing. Watch the youtube link: automatic weapons with cylinder clips and a trunk full of more guns and ammo, full body armor, etc etc. Craziness.

Heat was released in 1995 and was a remake of a 1989 film, the robbery was in 1998.

[Gan]

I was reading about this yesterday. The waterfowl ban has been in place for years, and it effectively means all waterfowl since in almost all cases you are hunting them in or next to wetlands. It does add quite a bit to the cost of shells, but other than that hunters seem to have adjusted pretty well to it. From a hunter's perspective, I'm not sure how I feel about extending the lead ban to all guns. One of the saddest parts about the waterfowl ban is that it basically means a lot of old guns can't be used anymore because the barrels can't handle harder metals.

As for fishing lures, we've had this sort of change before in fishing too, but this would be a pain in the rear regardless. I don't know if this is the case in all states, but quite a while back galvanized metal hooks were outlawed in Minnesota. Why? Because if you hook a fish and your line breaks, you want the hook to degrade and fall out and then the fish survives. Galvanized hooks didn't degrade well, so they were phased out. Now they're antiques. I view lead the same way: it's on the way out because fish swallow a ton of lead and either get sick and die, or we eat the fish, or the fish that ate the fish... it makes sense to phase out lead, as much as I loathe the idea of replacing all of my expensive tackle, particularly the muskie lures that cost a freakin' fortune already. The biggest pain though will be sinkers. I'll basically have to stop using split shot sinkers, but I think I can manage.

As far as range clean up is concerned, hazardous material clean up is unbelievably expensive. I've worked on a number of projects where the soil went through clean up, and the one that comes to mind where I can remember the numbers, the cost was about $55 a cubic yard for some very basic remediation, (incineration to eliminate fuel in the soil), and that was 15 years ago, so you're probably looking at $100 a cubic yard minimum for the most basic remediation. Lead removal probably costs a lot more.

We already use steel shot for duck hunting. That has been mandated in most areas in the US since the 1980's. Clearly the EPA has a different agenda if this is their excuse for banning lead rounds.

[Clove]

Heat was released in 1995 and was a remake of a 1989 film, the robbery was in 1998.So he was thinking about Heat...

[AnticorRifling]

5 cents more for the military in the bulk they buy is what, 25 cents more for the consumer who buys 100 rounds at a time?

Who the hell only buys ammo 100 rounds at a time?!

[Clove]

Who the hell only buys ammo 100 rounds at a time?!Snipers.

[AnticorRifling]

Snipers.

Yeah you're probably right I mean no one practices thousands and thousands of rounds to ensure when it's go time their one shot is a kill shot.



Try again Clove. :)

[Stanley Burrell]

Who the hell only buys ammo 100 rounds at a time?!

Forensic analysts and your dude from the Oregon Trail.

[Clove]

Yeah you're probably right I mean no one practices thousands and thousands of rounds to ensure when it's go time their one shot is a kill shot.



Try again Clove. :)They don't need practice. Joke much?

[AnticorRifling]

They don't need practice. Joke much?

Do you know the difference between snipers and profits?

[Clove]

Do you know the difference between snipers and profits?Snipers kill and Prophets get killed.

[AnticorRifling]

Totally on topic here's a pic from last weeked:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n177/anticor/Shooting/CZ750.jpg

CZ 750 and a box of hand loaded ammo. It was an awesome day.

[g++]

Good thing you brought gatorade that looks exhausting. How much did that gun cost you?

[Clove]

Were those lead-free rounds?

[AnticorRifling]

Good thing you brought gatorade that looks exhausting. How much did that gun cost you?

Yeah bench rest shooting will totally take it out of you....lol it was hot fuck you :)

That rifle....2400ish, the scope probably 450ish.

[AnticorRifling]

Were those lead-free rounds? Of course! I don't want the local homeless eating my spent rounds out of the back stop and getting sick.

[Clove]

Yeah bench rest shooting will totally take it out of you....lol it was hot fuck you :)

That rifle....2400ish, the scope probably 450ish.I gotta love a guy that can tell you how many rounds he shot, but not how much the rifle cost.

[g++]

Yeah bench rest shooting will totally take it out of you....lol it was hot fuck you :)

That rifle....2400ish, the scope probably 450ish.

Yikes whats the most expensive you have?

[AnticorRifling]

I gotta love a guy that can tell you how many rounds he shot, but not how much the rifle cost.

I though I just did. Or did I need to get it down to the penny, include tax, shipping, etc? That rifle you can expect to pay 2400ish, you can also expect to pay 450ish for that same scope, like I said.

[AnticorRifling]

Yikes whats the most expensive you have?

That's the most expensive set up I've got currently.

[Clove]

I though I just did. Or did I need to get it down to the penny, include tax, shipping, etc? That rifle you can expect to pay 2400ish, you can also expect to pay 450ish for that same scope, like I said.You know. PB isn't really that old AR.

[AnticorRifling]

I heard he was in his mid to late 150s and he farts dust.

[Drew]

Who the hell only buys ammo 100 rounds at a time?!

Uhh, I do? When I shoot trap that's 4 stands. That's about what I enjoy doing. Also ammo is expensive and I am niggardly.

[Gan]

Racist!

[Gan]

Totally on topic here's a pic from last weeked:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n177/anticor/Shooting/CZ750.jpg

CZ 750 and a box of hand loaded ammo. It was an awesome day.

Nice rig.

[Drew]

Racist!




I know you're joking, but just for the idiots who like to neg rep me: niggard is a 900 year old word that has nothing to do with black people. It was in use for over a half a millennia before a similar word for black people came into use and other than superficial similarity they have absolutely no relation.

[Clove]

Whatever, racist.

[Cephalopod]

I know you're joking, but just for the idiots who like to neg rep me: niggard is a 900 year old word that has nothing to do with black people. It was in use for over a half a millennia before a similar word for black people came into use and other than superficial similarity they have absolutely no relation.

Hey, I pos-repped you for it!

[Drew]

Hey, I pos-repped you for it!

Yeah I saw that after I posted, then I lawled.

[Gan]

Does using it to try to be a lulzy edgy conservative mean you actually are racist?

;)
Quit projecting.

[Gan]

I know you're joking, but just for the idiots who like to neg rep me: niggard is a 900 year old word that has nothing to do with black people. It was in use for over a half a millennia before a similar word for black people came into use and other than superficial similarity they have absolutely no relation.
;)


Whatever, racist.
hahaha


Hey, I pos-repped you for it!
Ditto

[Warriorbird]

So the effective upshot of the 'edgy' conservative use of the word is, 'Those darn black people. They get offended over a 900 year old word!'

So yeah. Drew's totally cool.

[Clove]

So why use it over cheap when you're a Republican if not for 'HA HA. I'm so conservative.' points? It isn't like it's a word commonly thrown around the school playground or anything.Clearly you've never been around the playground in Princeton Junction.

[Warriorbird]

Clearly you've never been around the playground in Princeton Junction.

I make it a policy to try to avoid New Jersey.

Also noteworthy:

"The racial makeup of the CDP was 86.99% White, 2.02% African American, 0.13% Native American, 8.86% Asian, 0.76% from other races, and 1.26% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 3.06% of the population."

Some of us live in places that aren't 87% white and 9% Asian.

[Drew]

So the effective upshot of the 'edgy' conservative use of the word is, 'Those darn black people. They get offended over a 900 year old word!'

So yeah. Drew's totally cool.


No I use it because it was the correct word for the situation. I didn't use cheap because it was the wrong word. End of story.

[Drew]

But I do view politically correct do-gooders getting their panties in a twist over it as a delicious bonus.

[Warriorbird]

No I use it because it was the correct word for the situation. I didn't use cheap because it was the wrong word. End of story.

So. Stingy didn't occur to you? You followed up pretty fast with your explanation/shot and you got what looked to be your desired response.


But I do view politically correct do-gooders getting their panties in a twist over it as a delicious bonus.

I like pointing out 'Ha ha, I almost said the n word. I'm so cool.' as being about as cool as Mark Williams' NAACP remarks.

[Gan]

So. Stingy didn't occur to you? You followed up pretty fast with your explanation/shot and you got what looked to be your desired response.

Kudos for you being so predictable.

[Warriorbird]

Kudos for you being so predictable.

Miraculously, I'm not sure that this conversation is only funny in the 'Let's make fun of people getting offended about things. Man, that's stupid. We're white and entitled.' sense.

[Gan]

Miraculously, I'm not sure that this conversation is only funny in the 'Let's make fun of people getting offended about things. Man, that's stupid. We're white and entitled.' sense.

I bet you still have some hot air left to blow this out of proportion even more. No wonder you're involved in politics.

I would tell you to stop being stupid; however...

[Gan]

I openly believe that you are retarded.

[Warriorbird]

I'm sorry. It's so hard to be white and of a relatively high socioeconomic status. Our life is so hard. Maybe we could make fun of the NAACP to relieve tension. I bet I could get PB to join me.

[Drew]

So. Stingy didn't occur to you?



If you're really interested. I considered stingy but I felt it didn't reflect how extremely cheap I am when I buy ammo, stingy indicates a begrudgingness to spend to me. I also considered penurious but that implies that along with being niggardly I also can't actually afford the item which wasn't the case. So niggardly was the best choice of words for that sentence. But enjoy your conspiracy theories about hidden racist motives or whatever it is you're upset about now.

[AnticorRifling]

I'm sorry. It's so hard to be white and of a relatively high socioeconomic status. Our life is so hard. Maybe we could make fun of the NAACP to relieve tension. I bet I could get PB to join me.

lol wut

[Warriorbird]

If you're really interested. I considered stingy but I felt it didn't reflect how extremely cheap I am when I buy ammo, stingy indicates a begrudgingness to spend to me. I also considered penurious but that implies that along with being niggardly I also can't actually afford the item which wasn't the case. So niggardly was the best choice of words for that sentence. But enjoy your conspiracy theories about hidden racist motives or whatever it is you're upset about now.

Amused != upset. I only seem to hear that word from relatively wealthy people with conservative leanings and a tendency towards libertarianism. They also all tend to be touchy about it like a number of you seem to be.

Post mostly successful derail, Tim Kaine has already told Obama that any notion of such a ban would derail Democratic congressional chances.

I think what we have is Republicans and ammo manufacturers seizing on a petition as yet another way to sell a bunch of ammo and slam Democrats pre November. I know my local gun shop has been rolling in dough.

[AnticorRifling]

They've been raking it in since Obama became president. The nut jobs are scared of all sorts of hilarious shit. It's fun to sit on the range and listen to some of them, espeically when you're shooting in MI with a few of the militia types it's good times.

[Warriorbird]

It'd make no sense for Obama to endanger every single Southern election. It makes a lot of sense for the gun folks to play on fear to make money. I've noticed a lot more of the militia people at local paintball after they claimed it could 'help you stop a home invasion...or deal with a disruption of society.' (which is hilarious)

They're fun to shoot and banter with. I feel bad if they think it's preparation for some apocalypse though.

[AnticorRifling]

I like paintballing with the guys that wear the paintball "gear" the special pants, and the padded shirts and shit. They crack me up. Man....I want to go paintball now haven't done it in like 4 years.

[Warriorbird]

My favorite local spot is in front of one of our local extremely Christian private schools. It gladdens my evil liberal heart to blast people with paint there.

I hadn't been for a while either. Found my equipment during the move back home though and figured I could have a good time before I considered Ebaying it.

[Paradii]

Having done no research on the subject I'm curious as to the ballists of the new bullet as compared to the old standard. What's the cost difference? If the stopping power is equal and the price is comprable great have a blast. To me I think it's someone with a vested interest in the new bullet pushing the old as evironment killers. Hunters generally don't leave their kills to be scavaged so I have a hard time believing that as a huge cause towards this issue.



I didn't bother to read if anyone responded to this but I'll offer my two sense.

The stopping power is not identical. Lead is slightly heavier and better.

Cost difference is a major factor. Lead is a lot cheaper.

Green bullets aren't really "green", they are just safer than lead.

Big game hunters aren't the best at retrieving animals that wander off in the wrong direction after being shot. Also, it's the gut piles that are often the problem. A condor that feeds on a gut pile of a hunter-cleaned deer will most likely die due to lead poisoning if not captured. Condors and other vultures, along with larger raptors are pretty susceptible to lead poisoning.

My personal opinion is that people should use a non-lead bullet anyways, though. Water fowl hunters have switched a long time ago, and no one complains too much anymore about that, except for the unavoidable chipped tooth after biting into a steel pellet. (lead is a lot softer and less likely to break your tooth, too)

[Clove]

I've noticed a lot more of the militia people at local paintball after they claimed it could 'help you stop a home invasion...or deal with a disruption of society.' (which is hilarious).Paintball can help you stop a home invasion?

[Warriorbird]

Paintball can help you stop a home invasion?

It's 'training' according to their advertising. I find the concept hilarious but it is making them money.

[Clove]

except for the unavoidable chipped tooth after biting into a steel pellet. (lead is a lot softer and less likely to break your tooth, too)Ever since I got my crowns I've pretty much insisted on dental-friendly bullets.

[AnticorRifling]

I didn't bother to read if anyone responded to this but I'll offer my two sense.

The stopping power is not identical. Lead is slightly heavier and better.

Cost difference is a major factor. Lead is a lot cheaper.

Green bullets aren't really "green", they are just safer than lead.

Big game hunters aren't the best at retrieving animals that wander off in the wrong direction after being shot. Also, it's the gut piles that are often the problem. A condor that feeds on a gut pile of a hunter-cleaned deer will most likely die due to lead poisoning if not captured. Condors and other vultures, along with larger raptors are pretty susceptible to lead poisoning.

My personal opinion is that people should use a non-lead bullet anyways, though. Water fowl hunters have switched a long time ago, and no one complains too much anymore about that, except for the unavoidable chipped tooth after biting into a steel pellet. (lead is a lot softer and less likely to break your tooth, too)

Yeah didn't think about the gut piles. Good call.

[crb]

Having done no research on the subject I'm curious as to the ballists of the new bullet as compared to the old standard. What's the cost difference? If the stopping power is equal and the price is comprable great have a blast. To me I think it's someone with a vested interest in the new bullet pushing the old as evironment killers. Hunters generally don't leave their kills to be scavaged so I have a hard time believing that as a huge cause towards this issue.

Yes, follow the money. People often forget that there is someone who wants to make money behind many "green" causes.

[Warriorbird]

Yes, follow the money. People often forget that there is someone who wants to make money behind many "green" causes.

Behind ANY causes.

[Paradii]

Ever since I got my crowns I've pretty much insisted on dental-friendly bullets.


I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not

[Paradii]

Another common problem is that people are shooting lead at the range and than copper or tungsten in the field. And there can be a difference when you switch in between, if you haven't practiced with a non-lead bullet in awhile. So, if they miss their shot, they blame the bullet and just keep using lead in the field.

Unfortunately, it is pretty damn expensive to put 200 rounds of tungsten through a rifle these days.

[Parkbandit]

I'm sorry. It's so hard to be white and of a relatively high socioeconomic status. Our life is so hard. Maybe we could make fun of the NAACP to relieve tension. I bet I could get PB to join me.

I doubt there is enough room in your short bus for anyone to join you.

Sorry, you are being wrong and stupid... something we've come to expect from you.

PS - Stop being so nigglingly.

[Parkbandit]

I like paintballing with the guys that wear the paintball "gear" the special pants, and the padded shirts and shit. They crack me up. Man....I want to go paintball now haven't done it in like 4 years.

My favorite is when they show up for woodsball in their brightly colored paintball gear.

[Paradii]

I doubt there is enough room in your short bus for anyone to join you.

Sorry, you are being wrong and stupid... something we've come to expect from you.

PS - Stop being so nigglingly.


Did anyone else have to google nigglingly to see what the hell it meant?

[Parkbandit]

Did anyone else have to google nigglingly to see what the hell it meant?

Maybe.......

[Parkbandit]

UPDATE:

In a swift and unexpected decision, the Environmental Protection Agency today rejected a petition from environmental groups to ban the use of lead in bullets and shotgun shells, claiming it doesn't have jurisdiction to weigh on the controversial Second Amendment issue. The decision came just hours after the Drudge Report posted stories from Washington Whispers and the Weekly Standard about how gun groups were fighting the lead bullet ban.


The EPA had planned to solicit public responses to the petition for two months, but this afternoon issued a statement rejecting a 100-page request from the Center for Biological Diversity, the American Bird Conservancy, and three other groups for a ban on lead bullets, shot, and fishing sinkers. The agency is still considering what to do about sinkers.

The decision was a huge victory for the National Rifle Association which just seven days ago asked that the EPA reject the petition, suggesting that it was a back door attempt to limit hunting and impose gun control. It also was a politically savvy move to take gun control off the table as the Democrats ready for a very difficult midterm election.

The NRA has spent two years tracking down rumors that the Obama administration wants to impose gun and ammo bans on the public, but hasn't found anything credible. While the lead ban was viewed initially as a substantial chance for the administration to move into challenging the Second Amendment, the swift rejection by the EPA settled concerns inside NRA headquarters today.

Here is what the EPA just sent Washington Whispers:

EPA Denies Petition Calling for Lead Ammunition Ban

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency today denied a petition calling for a ban on the production and distribution of lead hunting ammunition. EPA sent a letter to the petitioners explaining the rejection – that letter can be found here: http://www.epa.gov/oppt/chemtest/pubs/sect21.html

Steve Owens, EPA assistant administrator for the Office of Chemical Safety and Pollution Prevention, issued the following statement on the agency's decision:

"EPA today denied a petition submitted by several outside groups for the agency to implement a ban on the production and distribution of lead hunting ammunition. EPA reached this decision because the agency does not have the legal authority to regulate this type of product under the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) – nor is the agency seeking such authority.

"This petition, which was submitted to EPA at the beginning of this month, is one of hundreds of petitions submitted to EPA by outside groups each year. This petition was filed under TSCA, which requires the agency to review and respond within 90 days.

"EPA is taking action on many fronts to address major sources of lead in our society, such as eliminating childhood exposures to lead; however, EPA was not and is not considering taking action on whether the lead content in hunting ammunition poses an undue threat to wildlife.

"As there are no similar jurisdictional issues relating to the agency's authority over fishing sinkers, EPA – as required by law – will continue formally reviewing a second part the petition related to lead fishing sinkers.

"Those wishing to comment specifically on the fishing tackle issue can do so by visiting http://www.regulations.gov. EPA will consider comments that are submitted by September 15."

http://politics.usnews.com/news/washington-whispers/articles/2010/08/27/epa-surrenders-to-nra-on-gun-control-issue-epa-rejects-attempt-to-regulate-lead-in-bullets-after-nra-protests.html

[g++]

Kind of a shame, seems like another somewhat common sense issue getting derailed by partisanship and a lack of trust from the two sides. I doubt hunters and the NRA would mind the idea of getting rid of lead if they trusted the EPA/enviornmental groups to come up with a good alternative solution.

[Parkbandit]

Kind of a shame, seems like another somewhat common sense issue getting derailed by partisanship and a lack of trust from the two sides. I doubt hunters and the NRA would mind the idea of getting rid of lead if they trusted the EPA/enviornmental groups to come up with a good alternative solution.

Come up with a good alternative solution and the hunters and the NRA will be happy to give up lead.

[4a6c1]

I still dont know how I feel about this. Primarily because I havent had time to call my people and get the facts. When the guns and greenies clash I am never happy. :(

[Paradii]

Come up with a good alternative solution and the hunters and the NRA will be happy to give up lead.


Nah, hunting is such a tradition based activity that there would a be large group of hunters that would be far from happy to change even if presented with a reasonable/good/great alternative.

[Archigeek]

Nah, hunting is such a tradition based activity that there would a be large group of hunters that would be far from happy to change even if presented with a reasonable/good/great alternative.

That's not really true at all. Hunters are the most fierce protectors of wildlife out there. Nearly every hunter I knew went along with the lead ban for waterfowl without complaint. If they feel it makes sense for wildlife, not only will they support it, they'll promote it. And waterfowl hunting is probably the most ammo-intensive hunting out there. Comparatively speaking, deer hunters go through very little ammo.

The same goes for fishermen. Most fishermen practice catch and release because putting some of your catch back makes for stronger populations. Likewise they take care to remove weeds from their boats at landings so they don't spread invasive species, and a number of trout fishermen are moving away from felt-soled boots because they are now believed to spread invasive micro-organisms.

[Paradii]

That's not really true at all. Hunters are the most fierce protectors of wildlife out there. Nearly every hunter I knew went along with the lead ban for waterfowl without complaint. If they feel it makes sense for wildlife, not only will they support it, they'll promote it. And waterfowl hunting is probably the most ammo-intensive hunting out there. Comparatively speaking, deer hunters go through very little ammo.

The same goes for fishermen. Most fishermen practice catch and release because putting some of your catch back makes for stronger populations. Likewise they take care to remove weeds from their boats at landings so they don't spread invasive species, and a number of trout fishermen are moving away from felt-soled boots because they are now believed to spread invasive micro-organisms.

Trust me, your type of hunter is the minority.

[Rocktar]

Trust me, your type of hunter is the minority.

Not as small as you might think, though there certainly are plenty of the asshole, destructive, ATV jerks out there.

[Parkbandit]

Nah, hunting is such a tradition based activity that there would a be large group of hunters that would be far from happy to change even if presented with a reasonable/good/great alternative.

If you can get a material with the same basic properties and cost effectiveness as lead, they will be happy to change.

[Stanley Burrell]

The Second Amendment statement really offsets the EPA playing local tax-collector without warrants <---- I'm not even explaining this one, it would require too many letters.

[sst]

The Second Amendment statement really offsets the EPA playing local tax-collector without warrants <---- I'm not even explaining this one, it would require too many letters.

Stan, I think im starting to like you.

[Archigeek]

The Second Amendment statement really offsets the EPA playing local tax-collector without warrants <---- I'm not even explaining this one, it would require too many letters.

I really don't see this as a second ammendment issue so long as there's a viable alternative. The no lead shot for waterfowl change was pretty much accepted without incident, and that was even with a pretty significant added cost. What about requiring a more environmentally friendly bullet makes it a 2nd ammendment issue, so long as the new bullet is readily available and not expensive to the point of being a hardship? There's nothing in the second ammendment that guarantees cheap ammo.

[Parkbandit]

There's nothing in the second ammendment that guarantees cheap ammo.

I completely agree... as long as there is ammo available. Many of the materials that are put forth to replace lead makes the bullets armor piercing rounds.. which is against the law. That would effectively eliminate ammunition for guns.. which would be a clear violation of our 2nd amendment rights.

Like I've said.. find a cost effective solution with the same properties as lead and most hunters will be happy to switch over.

[Stanley Burrell]

I really don't see this as a second ammendment issue so long as there's a viable alternative. The no lead shot for waterfowl change was pretty much accepted without incident, and that was even with a pretty significant added cost. What about requiring a more environmentally friendly bullet makes it a 2nd ammendment issue, so long as the new bullet is readily available and not expensive to the point of being a hardship? There's nothing in the second ammendment that guarantees cheap ammo.

That's not it. It's the contrast of them immediately going Patriot with the Second Amendment versus the backhanded, lawless crap they're involved in.

[Archigeek]

That's not it. It's the contrast of them immediately going Patriot with the Second Amendment versus the backhanded, lawless crap they're involved in.

I'm confused. Who are they and in what sense are they "going patriot" with the 2nd ammentment, and also being involved "backhanded, lawless crap"?

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm confused. Who are they and in what sense are they "going patriot" with the 2nd ammentment, and also being involved "backhanded, lawless crap"?

Ugh. I posted earlier, from the OP this was a non-EPA group petitioning for ammo changes and that nothing would happen.

I got that right, hoo-fuckin'-ray.

Now onto the actual dichotomy of what the EPA does. The EPA is involved in the mafioso tactics of going into almost any commercial business they want to, without warrants, with the M.O. of having to find something wrong before they about face. It is the most gestapo, stupid bullshit you've never heard about.

Then, to save themselves paperwork on a more publically known issue (e.g. the one being discussed in this thread) they (The EPA) flaunt the 2nd Amendment as to why they're being selectively deaf. They have the balls to go, "2nd Amendment, 2nd Amendment!" because this actually gained moderate attention. Yet they will still send their henchmen out to random-ass commercial businesses, without warrants, in about the most unlawful manner you can conceive and start making citations to dequarter just about anybody who operates within the slightest tangent of an OSHA guideline.

The EPA is one of the most politics-oriented institutions known and not known to mankind.

[Archigeek]

Ugh. I posted earlier, from the OP this was a non-EPA group petitioning for ammo changes and that nothing would happen.

I got that right, hoo-fuckin'-ray.

Now onto the actual dichotomy of what the EPA does. The EPA is involved in the mafioso tactics of going into almost any commercial business they want to, without warrants, with the M.O. of having to find something wrong before they about face. It is the most gestapo, stupid bullshit you've never heard about.

Then, to save themselves paperwork on a more publically known issue (e.g. the one being discussed in this thread) they (The EPA) flaunt the 2nd Amendment as to why they're being selectively deaf. They have the balls to go, "2nd Amendment, 2nd Amendment!" because this actually gained moderate attention. Yet they will still send their henchmen out to random-ass commercial businesses, without warrants, in about the most unlawful manner you can conceive and start making citations to dequarter just about anybody who operates within the slightest tangent of an OSHA guideline.

The EPA is one of the most politics-oriented institutions known and not known to mankind.

Yeah but, tell us how you really feel Stanley? Seriously, though, I see what your point was; I'd missed the tangent. It's definitely food for thought.