The Latest Battle to Save Unborn Children

[ClydeR]

Could the decades-long global impasse over abortion worldwide be overcome — by little white pills costing less than $1 each?

That seems possible, for these pills are beginning to revolutionize abortion around the world, especially in poor countries.

More... (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01kristof.html)


What do these pills mean for the political battles over abortion? To firm opponents of abortion, the means of ending a pregnancy doesn’t matter. But my hunch is that, for those in the middle, taking pills at home may seem a more natural process than a surgical abortion, and the result may be a tad more acceptance.

In any case, it would be tough to carry out a ban on medical abortion. Indian companies are producing mifepristone and misoprostol in a big way, and blister packs with the combination of drugs can be purchased for less than $5 — and then shipped anywhere.

As soon as Republicans get back in power, the first thing we need to do is ban this drug and put heavy penalties on its importation.

[Parkbandit]

Abortion should not only remain legal, it should be encouraged to those who can't afford the 10 kids they already have. Give them this pill for free.. it's far cheaper.

[ElvenFury]

Abortion should not only remain legal, it should be encouraged to those who can't afford the 10 kids they already have. Give them this pill for free.. it's far cheaper.
Would it be unethical to spike the tap water with this drug in poorer neighborhoods?

Ok... what about just in Mexico?

[Parkbandit]

Would it be unethical to spike the tap water with this drug in poorer neighborhoods?

Ok... what about just in Mexico?

I was thinking about places like Boston, NYC, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Detroit, Philadelphia, etc...

[ElvenFury]

I was thinking about places like Boston, NYC, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Detroit, Philadelphia, etc...
That's fine; only the poor people in those cities use the tap water anyway.

[Parkbandit]

That's fine; only the poor people in those cities use the tap water anyway.

Good point... we will need to expand the operation and put it in bottled water as well. I mean, if we're targetting those cesspools, we might as well do a better job of cleaning them out.

[Parkbandit]

Christ.. now we're sounding like Obama's "science" Czar.

[Cephalopod]

This makes me glad I only drink the milk from my hypno-lactaction slaves.

[ElvenFury]

Good point... we will need to expand the operation and put it in bottled water as well. I mean, if we're targetting those cesspools, we might as well do a better job of cleaning them out.
You mean force private companies to change their operations according to our guidelines?

...I like where this is going.

[Rinualdo]

Wasn't there a thing in Freakonomics that talked about the relationship between legalizing abortion and a decrease in the crime rate?

[Keller]

Wasn't there a thing in Freakonomics that talked about the relationship between legalizing abortion and a decrease in the crime rate?

Yes.

[Ribbons]

Falcon Punch, still a viable solution.

[Caiylania]

Wasn't there a thing in Freakonomics that talked about the relationship between legalizing abortion and a decrease in the crime rate?

Yes. Good book. People hate the truth though.

[Inspire]

They should just "spay or neuter" a person when they enter welfare. Problem solved.


You want welfare? Then you get fixed, no more kids for you.

[Gan]

Wasn't there a thing in Freakonomics that talked about the relationship between legalizing abortion and a decrease in the crime rate?

I think I even made a thread about one of the articles in Freakonomics once up on a time.

:thinking:

[Delias]

They should just "spay or neuter" a person when they enter welfare. Problem solved.


You want welfare? Then you get fixed, no more kids for you.

I think we should offer a one time cash payment and breaks on the taxes allocated to education for people who undergo voluntary sterilization before having any children.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Until they figure out a way to keep the fetus alive outside of the female's body, I don't believe anyone has the right to determine for her what can and cannot grow in her body.

It's a shitty situation, but people that can't afford children shouldn't have them. The rest of us just end up having to foot the bills. Most of the people I work with are in shitty financial situations that began when they started having children they were ill-prepared for financially, and then decided to keep going for more.

[Delias]

Until they figure out a way to keep the fetus alive outside of the female's body, I don't believe anyone has the right to determine for her what can and cannot grow in her body.

It's a shitty situation, but people that can't afford children shouldn't have them. The rest of us just end up having to foot the bills. Most of the people I work with are in shitty financial situations that began when they started having children they were ill-prepared for financially, and then decided to keep going for more.

Yeah, like I said, Voluntary sterilization. For women it can even be the reversible kind... it costs enough to reverse it that they would have to be really serious about it.

[Kerranger]

Im shooting for ten kids, cause after that i hear you dont even have to pay child suppote anymore. Ill be raking in the foodstamps. Anyone wanna buy some steaks, cheap?

[Caiylania]

The only time I've been faced with a first trimester abortion I was against was when a (no longer) friend of mine and her husband fought over it. She didn't want anymore (they had one daughter) and found out she was pregnant. He wanted to keep it and she didn't. He begged her to but she went and got the abortion anyway. It was horrible to watch that drama unfold.

As a side note, when I was 8 months pregnant they were visiting and she had the absolute gall to look at him and go," You know, ours would have been 6 months old."

I would have fully supporting a session of wife beating at that moment, sadly he only called her a bitch and walked out. I called her a bitch and kicked her out.

But on average... I support abortion. Even knowing my mother almost had one. Have you heard that redneck joke?

You know you're a redneck if you were only born because your mama ran outta cash at the abortion clinic?

That was about me.

[Kerranger]

That must do wonders for the self esteem.

[Delias]

That must do wonders for the self esteem.

Well, an over-abundance of self esteem is what leads people into douchebaggery.

[Kerranger]

Well, an over-abundance of self esteem is what leads people into douchebaggery.

Point.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

The only time I've been faced with a first trimester abortion I was against was when a (no longer) friend of mine and her husband fought over it. She didn't want anymore (they had one daughter) and found out she was pregnant. He wanted to keep it and she didn't. He begged her to but she went and got the abortion anyway. It was horrible to watch that drama unfold.

As a side note, when I was 8 months pregnant they were visiting and she had the absolute gall to look at him and go," You know, ours would have been 6 months old."

I would have fully supporting a session of wife beating at that moment, sadly he only called her a bitch and walked out. I called her a bitch and kicked her out.

But on average... I support abortion. Even knowing my mother almost had one. Have you heard that redneck joke?

You know you're a redneck if you were only born because your mama ran outta cash at the abortion clinic?

That was about me.

Sorry but I think while what your friend said was fucked up, it was absolutely her choice and you're more than a hypocrite for being pro-choice but somehow thinking her husband should have had final say. Not just that but what kind of shit relationship did they have that they weren't even on the same page about kids, abortions, etc? I'm sure that'd have been a lovely environment for a child to be brought into. And honestly, a lot of women who would get an abortion are up front to their partners about that, I'm guessing though that some men simply don't take them seriously. If a woman says "I get knocked up, I'm aborting", she should be taken seriously and if a guy can't handle that possibility (no matter how slight) he shouldn't be sticking his dick in her.

[Delias]

Sorry but I think while what your friend said was fucked up, it was absolutely her choice. Not just that but what kind of shit relationship did they have that they weren't even on the same page about kids, abortions, etc? I'm sure that'd have been a lovely environment for a child to be brought into. And honestly, a lot of women who would get an abortion are up front to their partners about that, I'm guessing though that some men simply don't take them seriously. If a woman says "I get knocked up, I'm aborting", she should be taken seriously and if a guy can't handle that possibility (no matter how slight) he shouldn't be sticking his dick in her.

Honestly, Nikki, I don't think the abortion/no abortion decision even registers in the mind of a man until his woman is suddenly pregnant. I don't think I could tolerate a... let's call it a casual abortion in which there was nothing wrong with the fetus, i.e. downs or being someone elses kid, etc, in my own wife. I accept the realities of abortion and encourage every woman to make her own choices, but if my wife got an abortion of a healthy fetus without my approval, our relationship would probably end. If they child was predetermined to have some sort of handicap or be considered unlikely to survive a term pregnancy or some other health reason, I would of course support said abortion.

I've always been pro-choice, but I never even had an inkling of the emotions involved until my own wife was pregnant.

[thefarmer]

Sorry but I think while what your friend said was fucked up, it was absolutely her choice and you're more than a hypocrite for being pro-choice but somehow thinking her husband should have had final say.

I didn't get that Caiy thought that the husband should have had the final say. Just that the resulting drama (and shitty comment by the wife) was bad.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Honestly, Nikki, I don't think the abortion/no abortion decision even registers in the mind of a man until his woman is suddenly pregnant. I don't think I could tolerate a... let's call it a casual abortion in which there was nothing wrong with the fetus, i.e. downs or being someone elses kid, etc, in my own wife. I accept the realities of abortion and encourage every woman to make her own choices, but if my wife got an abortion of a healthy fetus without my approval, our relationship would probably end. If they child was predetermined to have some sort of handicap or be considered unlikely to survive a term pregnancy or some other health reason, I would of course support said abortion.

I've always been pro-choice, but I never even had an inkling of the emotions involved until my own wife was pregnant.

This isn't even really about being pro-choice or pro-life and under what circumstances.. My point is that before you sleep with someone, you should know where the other stands on abortion, children, etc. If one of you would want an abortion and the other wouldn't, you should probably get on the same page before having sex. If you don't do that, then there's no one to blame but themselves for the resulting fall-out of how the incident was handled.

And honestly, the first thing about it not entering the guys mind until a pregnancy happens is a cop-out and cheap excuse.. a lot of guys clearly think about potential pregnancy or else no one would use condoms or ask girls if they're on birth control. I just think that the topic of abortion is uncomfortable for a lot of people to broach and thus they don't, regardless of how reckless that is.

[Rinualdo]

Scissoring doesn't lead to abortions.

Just sayin.

[CrystalTears]

This isn't even really about being pro-choice or pro-life and under what circumstances.. My point is that before you sleep with someone, you should know where the other stands on abortion, children, etc. If one of you would want an abortion and the other wouldn't, you should probably get on the same page before having sex. If you don't do that, then there's no one to blame but themselves for the resulting fall-out of how the incident was handled.

And honestly, the first thing about it not entering the guys mind until a pregnancy happens is a cop-out and cheap excuse.. a lot of guys clearly think about potential pregnancy or else no one would use condoms or ask girls if they're on birth control. I just think that the topic of abortion is uncomfortable for a lot of people to broach and thus they don't, regardless of how reckless that is.In the case of Caiylania's story, it seems to me that the woman had changed her mind after the fact. They already had a child and she just didn't want another one, and I'm betting the husband didn't see that option as even possible.

I understand what you're saying that precautions would have been taken if they didn't want anymore children, but the thought that she would have an abortion didn't even phase him and she was probably too selfish to tell him since she's all "my body, my business" rather than looking at it from the perspective of being in a committed relationship.

And yes, it was her choice, but it was in REALLY bad taste to tell someone pregnant how old her aborted child would have been with the husband who was against it right there.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I agree her comment was bad, but I know I don't/can't know enough about what's going on to pass judgment on other people's reproductive choices and things related even if they are really close friends.

Undoubtedly the situation sucked. I'm just saying that for me, as an outsider, I would blame them equally no matter what I'd "heard" because they were both obviously airing their dirty laundry in the first place. I know that it's not exactly groundbreaking that some people have a serious issue with communication in their marriages but I just got the sense from Caiy's post that she 'sided' with the husband instead of simply being repulsed by the situation in it's entirety.

[CrystalTears]

I don't see her siding with the husband until the woman had stated that inappropriate comment to her. I don't think she appreciated their drama in any way.

[Clove]

I don't see her siding with the husband until the woman had stated that inappropriate comment to her. I don't think she appreciated their drama in any way.Caiy did say it was the only first-trimester abortion she was against. I think she sided with the hubby on this one.


I agree her comment was bad, but I know I don't/can't know enough about what's going on to pass judgment on other people's reproductive choices and things related even if they are really close friends.It's also not fair to say that because a person is "pro-choice" they can't ever hold the opinion that someone made a bad choice. Caiy didn't have a sweeping opinion on stranger's choices, she had an opinion on the individual choice of a personal friend. I get that that isn't an opinion you'd ever feel comfortable making, but I don't think it's fair to condemn others for taking a different stance.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Pro-Choice goes hand in hand with the sentiment that what another person chooses to do in that regard is nobodies business but their own. I side-eye the shit out of pro-life people and I side-eye the shit out of 'selective' pro-choice people, which is how Caiy came across to me. That's just me and that's not going to change.

Again though, my main point isn't about pro-life or pro-choice, it's about being on the same page as your partner about what the plan is if a pregnancy happens.

[AnticorRifling]

but if my wife got an abortion of a healthy fetus without my approval, our relationship would probably end. Just probably?! Bitch would get sued.

[Rinualdo]

Just probably?! Bitch would get sued.

I believe that's been tried and failed.

Although it will never happen, I believe women who choose to keep a baby when the man doesn't want it should waive rights of financial responsibility for the man in the future.

In the inverse case where the woman doesn't want the baby but the man does, I think she should be punched in the face.

[AnticorRifling]

I believe that's been tried and failed.

Although it will never happen, I believe women who choose to keep a baby when the man doesn't want it should waive rights of financial responsibility for the man in the future.

In the inverse case where the woman doesn't want the baby but the man does, I think she should be punched in the face.

No dude, everyone(in this case women) want to be completely equal when it's in their favor, not when it requires burden duh.

Pretty sure if I go in for a snip my wife has to sign off on it (at least in most clinics I could be wrong) so it's odd that she can just dump DNA without a husband signature.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Although it will never happen, I believe women who choose to keep a baby when the man doesn't want it should waive rights of financial responsibility for the man in the future.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[AnticorRifling]

Again though that puts all the power on the woman, what if he wants her to abort it because he doesn't want his bloodline continuing with offspring from her? There has to be some middle ground...too bad it won't happen. The majority of people that feel strongly on a subject, abortion/guns/polar bears, want absolutes when really an agreement to meet in the middle would probably be the best solution.

[Clove]

Pro-Choice goes hand in hand with the sentiment that what another person chooses to do in that regard is nobodies business but their own.I suppose that's one interpretation. I interpret it that nobody can compel you to make a particular choice, particularly the government. Having an opinion on your decision is a separate matter entirely.

Nobody in my family agreed with my brother's initial plan for college. We certainly shared our opinions with him too. At the same time nobody in my family believed it was anybody's decision but his alone, nor did we desire to pre-empt it. You could go so far as to say his choice in education wasn't even our business; but the fact is we are not islands. We live in relationships and it reasonable to expect people who have certain relationships with us to have certain interests and opinions about our personal lives. Strangers and government officials on the other hand can go fuck themselves.

I realize that a person's choice in schools is not the same as what a person does about a pregnancy (although both may have sweeping consequences for an individual's future) but I am pointing out that having an opinion about someone's decision is NOT the same as disagreeing with their right to MAKE it.

[Caiylania]

Sorry but I think while what your friend said was fucked up, it was absolutely her choice and you're more than a hypocrite for being pro-choice but somehow thinking her husband should have had final say. Not just that but what kind of shit relationship did they have that they weren't even on the same page about kids, abortions, etc? I'm sure that'd have been a lovely environment for a child to be brought into. And honestly, a lot of women who would get an abortion are up front to their partners about that, I'm guessing though that some men simply don't take them seriously. If a woman says "I get knocked up, I'm aborting", she should be taken seriously and if a guy can't handle that possibility (no matter how slight) he shouldn't be sticking his dick in her.

I did not at all feel he should have the final say. However, she chose to have sex as much as he did and it was his child as much as hers. It broke him. I didn't hate her and we stayed friends for awhile, but she had no respect for how much her decision hurt him. She disrespected him about it on more than one occasion and basically just treated it like it was a non-event.

If she was single and felt that way fine, but she is married to someone who had an emotional investment in that pregnancy.

His opinion didn't even matter. That was my problem. I'm pretty sure they were on prevention but it still happened.

It wasn't my place to state what she should have done, simply that her husband's voice should have been important to her. So when she did do it, I didn't agree with it. She didn't give her husband any time to really talk to her.

I realize there is a time limit, but to find out on Day 1, inform husband on day 1 and abort on day 2 or 3? (It was either day after she found out or two days later... not really much of a think it through time frame imho)

That wasn't fair to any of them.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Yeah, like I said, Voluntary sterilization. For women it can even be the reversible kind... it costs enough to reverse it that they would have to be really serious about it.

Not necessary. They have birth control that is effective for 5 years now. I think it's called Mirena. Why that isn't more readily available, I don't know.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Honestly, Nikki, I don't think the abortion/no abortion decision even registers in the mind of a man until his woman is suddenly pregnant. I don't think I could tolerate a... let's call it a casual abortion in which there was nothing wrong with the fetus, i.e. downs or being someone elses kid, etc, in my own wife. I accept the realities of abortion and encourage every woman to make her own choices, but if my wife got an abortion of a healthy fetus without my approval, our relationship would probably end. If they child was predetermined to have some sort of handicap or be considered unlikely to survive a term pregnancy or some other health reason, I would of course support said abortion.

I've always been pro-choice, but I never even had an inkling of the emotions involved until my own wife was pregnant.

Why? It isn't your body. You won't have to go through the emotional and physical trauma for it. You probably wouldn't be the primary caretaker either (since women generally are). You wouldn't be undertaking any of the risks involved with a pregnancy (slight as some may be), so why would you feel that it's a deal breaker?

What if your wife turned around and said that she wanted you to have a particularly painful genital piercing, or else it was a dealbreaker. That's somewhat comparable. A lot of women's bodies are wrecked after a baby, and they take months to recover. Is that fair or would you find that unfair because the end product didn't turn out to be the same?

[AnticorRifling]

Why? It isn't your body. You won't have to go through the emotional and physical trauma for it. You probably wouldn't be the primary caretaker either (since women generally are). You wouldn't be undertaking any of the risks involved with a pregnancy (slight as some may be), so why would you feel that it's a deal breaker?

What if your wife turned around and said that she wanted you to have a particularly painful genital piercing, or else it was a dealbreaker. That's somewhat comparable. A lot of women's bodies are wrecked after a baby, and they take months to recover. Is that fair or would you find that unfair because the end product didn't turn out to be the same?

Getting my nuts pierced is totally equal to the life of a child. Excellent post.

[CrystalTears]

Why? It isn't your body.But the life in her body is just as much his to decide the fate on, and THAT is where some of my issues are with "my body, my business". That life is not strictly yours to decide on and it truly is unfair that some women do not care how the father of the child feels about it.


What if your wife turned around and said that she wanted you to have a particularly painful genital piercing, or else it was a dealbreaker. That's somewhat comparable. A lot of women's bodies are wrecked after a baby, and they take months to recover. Is that fair or would you find that unfair because the end product didn't turn out to be the same? This is the worst analogy ever. It's not comparable at all.

[Ryvicke]

I didn't think the analogy was horrible... it's pain/permanent damage of your genital area.

That said, the decision (in an entirely responsible relationship) is 51% woman/49% man, which is to say: 100% woman. No matter the circumstances.

[Caiylania]

but I am pointing out that having an opinion about someone's decision is NOT the same as disagreeing with their right to MAKE it.

That.

This is one of those grey areas where there is no right answer.

[ElvenFury]

This is one of those grey areas where there is no right answer.
Surely you're not suggesting that abortion is some sort of hot-button topic?

[Delias]

Why? It isn't your body. You won't have to go through the emotional and physical trauma for it. You probably wouldn't be the primary caretaker either (since women generally are). You wouldn't be undertaking any of the risks involved with a pregnancy (slight as some may be), so why would you feel that it's a deal breaker?

What if your wife turned around and said that she wanted you to have a particularly painful genital piercing, or else it was a dealbreaker. That's somewhat comparable. A lot of women's bodies are wrecked after a baby, and they take months to recover. Is that fair or would you find that unfair because the end product didn't turn out to be the same?

Excuse me, but the emotional trauma is there for everyone to share. I don't really feel like listing all of the reasons here but I feel my life experiences authorize me to speak on my own behalf, especially about procreation.

Your analogy is just retarded. Since I'm apparently not the primary caretaker, then I'm the primary breadwinner, and my lifetime of work to ensure the wellbeing of my family will probably do more damage to my body than a pregnancy will do to hers. It's not like she's popping them out once a year. Rather than get an abortion when my wife got pregnant, I got a second job, instead, and we worked it out. Would I insist others do the same? No, of course not. Would I judge them for getting an abortion, instead? Nope, not a jot.

For me personally, once Beth got pregnant, mentally and emotionally speaking there was no option- I needed more money, so I found more work. Her pregnancy got a little bit rough near the end, and she did have a hard recovery after the birth for a month or two. So I would work one job, stop home for lunch and see if she needed anything, work another job, come home, go to sleep for about three hours, wake up with the baby, go back to bed for another couple of hours and go back to work.

Nikki, as far as what I said about it not registering, I didn't mean they didn't think about it beforehand. My point was that thinking "I'm sure I will feel this way, when this happens" is not always the same way you feel when said event ACTUALLY happens.

I consider my genetics to be precious (an opinion I'm sure few of you share at this juncture) and I wouldn't trade my healthy, laughing son for anything. I also have a sister who has four kids and god knows how many abortions behind her. I consider her a bitch, but what she does with her genetic material is hardly a concern of mine, except when it comes time to play baseball with my nephews.

For anyone who finds that too long, the summary: What you do is your business, what I do is my business, I support your right to have an abortion, so you need to support my right to leave a relationship in which my pregnant partner gets an abortion without my approval.

[Sylvan Dreams]

But the life in her body is just as much his to decide the fate on, and THAT is where some of my issues are with "my body, my business". That life is not strictly yours to decide on and it truly is unfair that some women do not care how the father of the child feels about it.

Except that there is currently zero way for the father to take the fetus on without the assistance of the female. Until then, I don't think another person has the right to tell you (general you) what can and cannot use your body to grow.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I didn't think the analogy was horrible... it's pain/permanent damage of your genital area.

That said, the decision (in an entirely responsible relationship) is 51% woman/49% man, which is to say: 100% woman. No matter the circumstances.


I know it wasn't the greatest analogy, but that was the closest thing I could think of to do to a man. It certainly isn't the best comparison to a pregnancy but I drew a blank otherwise.

[4a6c1]

KILLING BABIES IS BAD MKAY

[Sylvan Dreams]

Your analogy is just retarded. Since I'm apparently not the primary caretaker, then I'm the primary breadwinner, and my lifetime of work to ensure the wellbeing of my family will probably do more damage to my body than a pregnancy will do to hers. It's not like she's popping them out once a year. Rather than get an abortion when my wife got pregnant, I got a second job, instead, and we worked it out. Would I insist others do the same? No, of course not. Would I judge them for getting an abortion, instead? Nope, not a jot.

1. Yes, it wasn't the best, most accurate comparison, but that's all I could think of!

2. You say you wouldn't judge a person for getting an abortion, but later on you said:


I also have a sister who has four kids and god knows how many abortions behind her. I consider her a bitch, but what she does with her genetic material is hardly a concern of mine, except when it comes time to play baseball with my nephews.

...which kind of implies you think she's a bitch because of the abortions.



For me personally, once Beth got pregnant, mentally and emotionally speaking there was no option- I needed more money, so I found more work. Her pregnancy got a little bit rough near the end, and she did have a hard recovery after the birth for a month or two. So I would work one job, stop home for lunch and see if she needed anything, work another job, come home, go to sleep for about three hours, wake up with the baby, go back to bed for another couple of hours and go back to work.

All snarking aside, it was excellent of you to step up like that. Most people, male or female, would not go through that much trouble for a baby.


For anyone who finds that too long, the summary: What you do is your business, what I do is my business, I support your right to have an abortion, so you need to support my right to leave a relationship in which my pregnant partner gets an abortion without my approval.

It's totally your right to leave your partner for any reason, or no real reason at all. I was just curious about your justification. Your reaction also made me wonder if that is why women sometimes go have secret abortions - to not be stuck with a baby they don't want and a partner they do want. Like everyone here knows, a baby is a huge responsibility, but it's also not everyone's source of personal fulfillment.

I also have to wonder if a man offered a woman who was pregnant and didn't want it the option of him paying for all medical expenses, covering her pay for loss of work time and maybe even for the plastic surgery for any bits that changed to her displeasure, if she would go through with the pregnancy.

[Delias]

My hatred for my sister has absolutely nothing to do with her womb. My judgment of her is completely independent and based wholly on the fact that she is fucking crazy and a pathological liar. In her case, I am actually not just pro-choice, but actively pro-abortion. When she finally got her tubes tied I felt a warm, joyful feeling that she wouldn't have more kids that I would one day look forward to bailing out of jail. I generally don't pass up any opportunity to call her a bitch.

Other than that, I think you and I have come to an understanding. =]

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I'm pretty rabidly pro-choice and I can't blame Delias for how he feels. In fact he kind of demonstrates what I mean.. it has less to do with pro-life and pro-choice but finding someone who shares your values in that regard, whatever they may be.