Courts Telling Us What to Believe

[ClydeR]

This is an absolute outrage! I hope it gets appealed and appealed quickly. Between this and the court overturning the Arizona law, I think it's obvious that we need to do something about activist judges.


...a federal court Monday ruled in favor of Eastern Michigan University in a lawsuit brought by the defense fund on behalf of student Julea Ward, who was dismissed from the school's graduate counseling program in March 2009 "for not affirming homosexual behavior as morally acceptable," according to an ADF release.

Eastern Michigan had required Ward to serve homosexual clients in an affirming way during counseling sessions.

More... (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/college-inc/2010/07/two_cases_pit_gay_rights_again.html)

You shouldn't have to talk to homosexuals to get a college degree.

[Deathravin]

Wish it could be like the good 'ole days. See a gay, just shoot em in the face and go about your day... like Jesus intended.

[Rocktar]

While I don't believe that it is acceptable to discriminate based on sexual preference, clearly, this is a case of discrimination as well. It isn't illegal to be a bigot, it is, however, illegal to treat people unfairly in the workplace because you are one. If you can use this type of ruling this way, you can surely turn it the other and say if you do believe in this, or that you can be dismissed.

[radamanthys]

I hate people who hate.

[ClydeR]

If you can use this type of ruling this way, you can surely turn it the other and say if you do believe in this, or that you can be dismissed.

Thank you! That's exactly what we've been saying all along.

This student was in a program where she was required to counsel people. When some homosexuals came in for counseling, she didn't want to counsel them, but the school said she had to.

Because Certain People don't seem to recognize the unjustness of what the school did to the student, let me apply our argument to a situation to which Certain People can better relate. Suppose you are a waiter at a restaurant. Some homosexuals come into the restaurant. You tell your boss that you don't want to serve the homosexuals. Your boss says you will serve them or be fired! Same exact thing. The way I see it, your boss just violated your religious rights. Let's hope this activist court ruling gets overturned.

[AnticorRifling]

Getting fired for not doing your job? CRAZY TALK!

[Clove]

While I don't believe that it is acceptable to discriminate based on sexual preference, clearly, this is a case of discrimination as well. It isn't illegal to be a bigot, it is, however, illegal to treat people unfairly in the workplace because you are one. If you can use this type of ruling this way, you can surely turn it the other and say if you do believe in this, or that you can be dismissed.It isn't illegal to be a bigot. It is illegal to discriminate against protected classes (hint: bigots aren't protected). It isn't illegal to fail your employer's performance expectations and it isn't illegal for your employer to terminate you for failing either. That's the message the court sent.

[Latrinsorm]

While I don't believe that it is acceptable to discriminate based on sexual preference, clearly, this is a case of discrimination as well. It isn't illegal to be a bigot, it is, however, illegal to treat people unfairly in the workplace because you are one. If you can use this type of ruling this way, you can surely turn it the other and say if you do believe in this, or that you can be dismissed.So when you say it is not "acceptable", what specifically do you mean by that?

[Clove]

So when you say it is not "acceptable", what specifically do you mean by that?I think he's saying that bigots should be a protected class because it isn't illegal or some shit.

[CrystalTears]

Getting fired for not doing your job? CRAZY TALK!
No kidding.

Be a bigot on your own dime. When you're working for someone else, follow their policies or GTFO.

[Kenn]

It seems like the colleges were looking to protect their asses should a gay client feel discriminated against because they were handed off by a counselor. That being said...




Steeh said the program required Ward to suspend her own beliefs, not to change them. Her dismissal "was entirely due to plaintiff's refusal to change her behavior, not her beliefs," the ruling states.



Would it really have killed her to suck it up and ACT differently? And according to the article, the client wasn't a known or admitted homosexual.




Ward's attorneys say she tried to solve the problem by referring a potential homosexual client to another counselor.



Your (ClydeR) aversion to the court's decision comes off less as a rights violation and more as gay-bashing.

[Rocktar]

It isn't illegal to be a bigot. It is illegal to discriminate against protected classes (hint: bigots aren't protected). It isn't illegal to fail your employer's performance expectations and it isn't illegal for your employer to terminate you for failing either. That's the message the court sent.

If the performance expectations include requirements that go against your religious or ethical background, then it is illegal to fire you for that. If substantive evidence exists that suggests you applied such performance standards with the express purpose of terminating an employee due to your personal beliefs then it is illegal.

Where is that legal degree from again? What weight does a financial analyst have to comment here?


I think...

Stop lying.

[AnticorRifling]

Ok so let's say I where I work there are free women. The kind that lactate when under the effects of hypnosis. I, having a pocket watch and the ability to swing it back and forth, could do so but I'm lactose intolerant. I hate these women for ruining my to and fro pocket watchery can I fire them?

[Rocktar]

So when you say it is not "acceptable", what specifically do you mean by that?

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/acceptable

ac·cept·a·ble   [ak-sep-tuh-buhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. capable or worthy of being accepted.
2. pleasing to the receiver; satisfactory; agreeable; welcome.
3. meeting only minimum requirements; barely adequate: an acceptable performance.
4. capable of being endured; tolerable; bearable: acceptable levels of radiation.


I would suggest that definitions 1, 3 and 4 all are appropriate to this situation.

[Rocktar]

It seems like the colleges were looking to protect their asses should a gay client feel discriminated against because they were handed off by a counselor. That being said...



Would it really have killed her to suck it up and ACT differently? And according to the article, the client wasn't a known or admitted homosexual.



Your (ClydeR) aversion to the court's decision comes off less as a rights violation and more as gay-bashing.

I would argue that in the world of professional therapists referring a patient to a more suitable therapist would indeed be much more professionally respectable and appropriate than trying to help someone when you really can't agree or deal with their position on things. Another, more extreme example could be if you were the victim of child molestation and became a therapist and a patient admitted that they did such and you choose to refer them to someone else. Clearly a good therapist would refer a patient to others when their personal feelings interfered with their objectivity and their ability to give the patient the highest level of care possible.

[Rocktar]

Ok so let's say I where I work there are free women. The kind that lactate when under the effects of hypnosis. I, having a pocket watch and the ability to swing it back and forth, could do so but I'm lactose intolerant. I hate these women for ruining my to and fro pocket watchery can I fire them?

Only if you can concoct some bullshit reason to fire them and grow the fuck up enough that you could actually manage to pull off making the excuse in court under deposition enough times to get a judge to agree with you.

[AnticorRifling]

So you're saying there's a chance... Time to put on my VT firin' shoes.

[CrystalTears]

If the performance expectations include requirements that go against your religious or ethical background, then it is illegal to fire you for that.
If a job's policies and procedures go against your religious or ethical background that will cause you to go against those policies, don't work there or don't cry from your vag when you get fired.

[Latrinsorm]

From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/acceptable

ac·cept·a·ble   [ak-sep-tuh-buhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. capable or worthy of being accepted.
2. pleasing to the receiver; satisfactory; agreeable; welcome.
3. meeting only minimum requirements; barely adequate: an acceptable performance.
4. capable of being endured; tolerable; bearable: acceptable levels of radiation.


I would suggest that definitions 1, 3 and 4 all are appropriate to this situation.So if the counselor's behavior does not meet the minimum requirements, you don't consider that grounds for termination? They are requirements, after all. If her behavior is not capable of being endured and she will not change it, the only solution is to remove her behavior by other means (i.e. firing) - no?

[Clove]

If the performance expectations include requirements that go against your religious or ethical background, then it is illegal to fire you for that.Religion is a protected class, "ethical background" is not.


If... evidence exists that suggests you applied... performance standards with the express purpose of terminating an employee due to your personal beliefs then it is illegal.Can you explain what this means? If an employer expresses that its performance standards exist to eliminate workers who cannot provide service to its clients... it's illegal how?


I can assure you my degree is legal. I don't however have a law degree and neither do you. I didn't claim legal authority but I did mock your own inexpert opinion. I don't need any special education or professional experience to think you're full of shit. Fuck you if you can't handle free speech.

Actually, I don't think...Stop telling the truth.

[Rocktar]

If a job's policies and procedures go against your religious or ethical background that will cause you to go against those policies, don't work there or don't cry from your vag when you get fired.

If you hire someone knowing their thoughts in the matter, then you, as the employer get to deal with it. It goes both ways.

[Rocktar]

So if the counselor's behavior does not meet the minimum requirements, you don't consider that grounds for termination? They are requirements, after all. If her behavior is not capable of being endured and she will not change it, the only solution is to remove her behavior by other means (i.e. firing) - no?

How is it unable to be endured that she recuse herself on the grounds of personal bias?

[Rocktar]

Religion is a protected class, "ethical background" is not.[quote]

It is when it is a nice way of saying race dumb fuck.

[quote]Can you explain what this means? If an employer expresses that its performance standards exist to eliminate workers who cannot provide service to its clients... it's illegal how?

It is illegal to concoct some bullshit reason to fire someone because you don't agree with their personal religious preferences. If you make up shit to justify a firing, which is sure what this looks like, then it is illegal.



I can assure you my degree is legal. I don't however have a law degree and neither do you. I didn't claim legal authority but I did mock your own inexpert opinion. I don't need any special education or professional experience to think you're full of shit.

I didn't question the legality of your degree, only if you had a law degree dipshit. And I am mocking your dumb fuck ass in exactly the same way you choose to mock me. If you can't take it pussy boy, then pack your underoos and go the fuck home. Other wise, butch up Sally and stop whining about your pussy ache.


Fuck you if you can't handle free speech.

WHAAAAAAAAA pussy boy is crying for attention cause I am picking on him, you can't deal with free speech when it disagrees with you. I handle free speech just fine, not my fault you got sand in your vagina over being treated in exactly the same way you have treated me. Take your bellyaching elsewhere male child.

[Latrinsorm]

How is it unable to be endured that she recuse herself on the grounds of personal bias?You're the one who said that you didn't believe it was acceptable, you tell me.
It is when it is a nice way of saying race dumb fuck.Do you mean ethnic?

[CrystalTears]

If you hire someone knowing their thoughts in the matter, then you, as the employer get to deal with it. It goes both ways.Wow. :lol: You have no clue what you're talking about and I'll leave it at that.

[Clove]

Religion is a protected class, "ethical background" is not.

It is when it is a nice way of saying race dumb fuck.I believe you mean "ethnic background". Dumb fuck.


It is illegal to concoct some bullshit reason to fire someone because you don't agree with their personal religious preferences. If you make up shit to justify a firing, which is sure what this looks like, then it is illegal.I can already tell you didn't read the summary. She was "fired" for refusing to participate with the American Counseling Associations code of ethics. This is not some arbitrary employer's personal feelings, it is a professional standard. As the judge put it, she was not required to change her beliefs, she was only required to set them aside and change her behavior specifically to do her job. The school deemed that since she was unable to participate with the ACA's code of ethics she could not complete their program. She was instructed on the code of ethics and understood it prior to entering the praticum course. If you can't touch pork, don't look for work on a pig farm. Absent any law degree, I believe the judge was spot on.


I didn't question the legality of your degree, only if you had a law degree dipshit.
Where is that legal degree from again?

WHAAAAAAAAA pussy boy is crying for attention cause I am picking on him, you can't deal with free speech when it disagrees with you. I handle free speech just fine, not my fault you got sand in your vagina over being treated in exactly the same way you have treated me. Take your bellyaching elsewhere male child.You're handling it just fine, aren't you?

[ClydeR]

The same thing happened to another student. This time in Georgia.


Bobby Spurlock, who identified himself as imperial wizard knighthawk and grand dragon of South Carolina and North Carolina, said the KKK has met with school officials and plans to protest the school's treatment of 24-year-old Jennifer Keeton on Oct. 23 from 1 to 4 p.m. Klan members will be in full dress across from the school's main Walton Way entrance in the median at Fleming Avenue.

Spurlock said the KKK believes Keeton's rights were violated when the school required her to participate in a remediation program after she objected to counseling homosexuals.

More... (http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2010-10-05/klan-rally-support-asu-student-keeton)

Having the support of the KKK probably will not help her case.

[Drew]

It isn't illegal to fail your employer's performance expectations and it isn't illegal for your employer to terminate you for failing either. That's the message the court sent.


People keep saying "her employer" but isn't this girl a student?

[TheEschaton]

Here's the thing: to be a licensed counselor, I imagine there's some code of ethics that requires you to treat someone regardless of sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. That's pretty standard in licensed professions.

If the school, whose job it is is to prepare students to be licensed counselors, feels she cannot meet the requirements of a licensed counselor, then they have the right to dismiss her.

The larger question is, of course, if professional organizations have a right to determine you must treat people who you morally object to on religious grounds. They are, for the most part, private organizations, and thus, are allowed to do what they want. If you don't like it, you don't have to be a licensed counselor.

That's why non-ABA approved law schools like the one all the Bush Justice appointees went to exist. ;)

[Warriorbird]

Regent's ABA approved, eerily.