ACORN = Family Values

[Parkbandit]

(CNN) -- Two employees at the Baltimore, Maryland, branch of the liberal community organizing group ACORN were caught on tape allegedly offering advice to a pair posing as a pimp and prostitute on setting up a prostitution ring and evading the IRS.

The video footage -- which has been edited and goes to black in some areas -- was recorded and posted online Thursday by James O'Keefe, a conservative activist. He was joined on the video by another conservative, Hannah Giles, who posed as the prostitute in the filmmakers' undercover sting.

The video shows the pair approaching two women working at the ACORN Baltimore office and asking them for advice on how to set up a prostitution ring involving more than a dozen underage girls from El Salvador.

One of the ACORN workers suggests that Giles refer to herself as a "performing artist" on tax forms and declare some of the girls as dependents to receive child tax credits.

"Stop saying prostitution," the woman, identified by the filmmaker as an ACORN tax expert, tells Giles. The other woman tells them, "You want to keep them clean ... make sure they go to school." Watch tape of alleged advice on prostitution »

Both women appear enthusiastic to help.

Calls to ACORN's Baltimore offices were not immediately returned Thursday. A local spokeswoman told The Associated Press that both employees seen in the video were fired.

"The portrayal is false and defamatory and an attempt at 'gotcha journalism,' " said Scott Levenson, a spokesman at ACORN's national offices. "This film crew tried to pull this sham at other offices and failed. ACORN wants to see the full video before commenting further."

The conservative filmmakers unsuccessfully attempted similar ruses at the group's offices in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Los Angeles, California, and New York, Levenson said.

Law enforcement officials in the Baltimore area wouldn't confirm whether they are investigating the alleged incident at the local ACORN office. However, authorities said that under Maryland law, such undercover video may not be admissible in court as evidence.

CNN attempted to reach O'Keefe and Giles; O'Keefe was not available for comment and Giles canceled an interview scheduled for Thursday.

ACORN -- an acronym for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now -- made headlines last year when Republican groups seized on allegations of voter registration fraud by the group in Florida and several other states, claiming its workers were trying to push the election in Barack Obama's favor.

On Wednesday, arrest warrants were issued for 11 Florida voter registration workers suspected of submitting false information on hundreds of voter registration cards, according to court documents. The Florida investigation was triggered by ACORN officials who noticed irregularities in forms they were receiving.

Founded in 1970, ACORN calls itself "the nation's largest grassroots community organization of low- and moderate-income people." The group says it has more than 400,000 member families organized into more than 1,200 neighborhood chapters in 110 cities.

Besides voter registration, the group focuses on issues such as predatory lending, the minimum wage and funding for public schools, according to its Web site. It also provides free tax-return preparation for low-income people and screening for state and federal benefit programs.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/10/acorn.prostitution/

ACORN.. good people doing good work.

[Trouble]

While I think what those two ladies did was inexcusable, to blame the entire organization is not fair. As you can see in the article, similar stunts did not work at other offices.

[Parkbandit]

While I think what those two ladies did was inexcusable, to blame the entire organization is not fair. As you can see in the article, similar stunts did not work at other offices.

It can't always be blamed on it's employees.. which is exactly what they do. At some point in time, the organization has to say "Gee, with all this fraud going on.. maybe we should tighten up a little bit!"

[Ravenstorm]

It can't always be blamed on it's employees.. which is exactly what they do. At some point in time, the organization has to say "Gee, with all this fraud going on.. maybe we should tighten up a little bit!"


The conservative filmmakers unsuccessfully attempted similar ruses at the group's offices in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Los Angeles, California, and New York, Levenson said.

And got nowhere one can assume before they found 2 corrupt people in a sixth office. Rampant! But since you made this a "family values" issues, maybe you should start the tightening with the GOP. How many Republican scandals have their been in the last six months? More PB hypocrisy.


The Florida investigation was triggered by ACORN officials who noticed irregularities in forms they were receiving.


ACORN.. good people doing good work.

Yes, sounds like. Glad you agree.

[Parkbandit]

And got nowhere one can assume before they found 2 corrupt people in a sixth office. Rampant! But since you made this a "family values" issues, maybe you should start the tightening with the GOP. How many Republican scandals have their been in the last six months? More PB hypocrisy.

How is that hypocrisy of me? I don't run for office.. I don't speak for the Republicans. I expected someone like you to excuse off ACORNs repeated behavior.. no big surprise.



Yes, sounds like. Glad you agree.

L2Sarcasm.

[Tsa`ah]

Well, at least you waited until it filtered from Fox and Breitbart/Drudge before running with it ... though you've yet to convince me you're not some Beck worshipper. You do seem to pick up and run with everything he's been saying for a while now.

ACORN should be happy that they don't have to expend the resources for internal investigations, you guys do it for free.

[Parkbandit]

Well, at least you waited until it filtered from Fox and Breitbart/Drudge before running with it ... though you've yet to convince me you're not some Beck worshipper. You do seem to pick up and run with everything he's been saying for a while now.

What does that have to do with the story again, Shit4Brains? Stop projecting. Maybe you should go have yourself another shit sandwich from your God, Keith Olbermann.



ACORN should be happy that they don't have to expend the resources for internal investigations, you guys do it for free.

You guys?

[Methais]

Didn't some ACORN people get arrested earlier this week for some voter registration fraud stuff too?

[Parkbandit]

Didn't some ACORN people get arrested earlier this week for some voter registration fraud stuff too?

You lousy, racist, Glen Beck fan!

[Parkbandit]

Maybe this is one of those "other" "isolated incidents"...

And just to make Shit4Brains happy, I linked the FOXS NEWS story of it!!!1111oneone


Two more ACORN officials were fired Friday after a second video surfaced showing staffers in the community organizers' Washington office offering to help a man and woman posing as a pimp and prostitute acquire illegal home loans that would help them set up a brothel.

The firings came less than 24 hours after another pair of ACORN officials from the group's Baltimore office were canned for instructing the "pimp" and "prostitute" how to falsify tax forms and seek illegal benefits for 13 "very young" girls from El Salvador that pair said they wanted to import to work as child prostitutes.

Both of the encounters were videotaped on a hidden camera wielded by 25-year-old independent filmmaker James O'Keefe, posing as the pimp — tapes that have ignited calls for investigations of ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now.

The group's leaders said Friday they were "appalled and angry" at what their staffers had done, but insisted the videos were part of a political "smear" campaign and not representative of the institution as a whole.

"But that does not excuse the behavior of the employees," wrote ACORN's president Alton Bennet and executive director Mike Shea. "We have fired them and are initiating an internal review of practices and reminding all staff of their obligation to uphold the highest legal and ethical standards."

Rep. Charles Boustany, R-La., called for a hearing to investigate ACORN's tax filing assistance programs following the release of the videos he said suggested multiple incidents of tax fraud.

"In light of the apparent flagrant and willful attempts to suborn tax fraud, I ... (am seeking) a hearing of the Oversight Subcommittee of the House Ways and Means Committee as soon as practicable to investigate ACORN’s activities," he said Friday.

O'Keefe, the filmmaker, was accompanied by 20-year-old Hannah Giles, who posed as a prostitute. On a videotape of their visit to ACORN's Washington's office, they are seen receiving guidance to establish the woman as the sole proprietor of a bogus company to mask the nature of her business.

"She's not going to put on (the loan application) that she's doing prostitution ... she doesn't have to," a now-fired ACORN staffer says. "You don't have to sit back and tell people what you do."

The ACORN staffer is heard suggesting that O'Keefe can purchase a house, and as the landlord, if he is ever questioned by authorities, he can say he was unaware of the illegal business going on inside.

"[W]hen the police ask you, (tell them) you don't know where (the money is) coming from," the staffer said. "We are looking out for you."

The ACORN employee later suggests that O'Keefe, who said he had a budding political career, not linger at the house in case people "put the dots together" and leave him "smeared and tarnished" by his association with his prostitute girlfriend. She should keep her business "low key," the employee continued, saying "You have neighbors and they see stuff. Don't think that people won't get on the telephone and call Fox."

One day before the Washington video was shot, O'Keefe and Giles sought help from ACORN workers in Baltimore, who told the pair how to falsify tax forms and seek illegal benefits for 13 "very young" girls from El Salvador that they said they said they wanted to import as prostitutes.

As he did in the taping in Baltimore, O'Keefe told the Washington officers that he had plans to bring as many as 10 women from El Salvador to work as prostitutes in Giles' "business."

"There's like 10 girls," O'Keefe says. "There's ten El Salvodoreans."

The ACORN staffer replies, "I understand what you are saying."

ACORN — the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now — calls itself a network of families "working together for social justice and stronger communities," according to its Web site.

The organization has been accused by conservatives and Republicans of committing fraud in voter registration drives around the country, and reaction to the videotape came swiftly after its release on Thursday.

"Taxpayers should be outraged that their money has gone to an organization that, in addition to facing charges of voter fraud and tax violations, is willing to facilitate prostitution," said Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa.

"As this video confirms, ACORN continues to operate as a criminal enterprise."

The first videotape, made in the Baltimore offices of ACORN, was made public Thursday on the political blog BigGovernment.com. That night, after portions of the video were aired throughout the day on FOX News, the group fired the two women who assisted O'Keefe and Giles in Baltimore.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,549241,00.html

[4a6c1]

I saw some Acorn people during Katrina when I was doing some junk for the SPCA. They were sitting on their asses complaining about the heat and not doing shit. Oh, except drinking my water bottles and eating my granola bars.

Serious question. What does Acorn do? Do they do anything useful?

[Tsa`ah]

Didn't some ACORN people get arrested earlier this week for some voter registration fraud stuff too?

The organization routinely turns over evidence (without investigation) to authorities, including the names of people responsible for potential fraud.

[waywardgs]

It's a group of 400,000 people, many of them volunteers. Show me any group of 400,000 people- regardless of the organization- without a few thieves, murderers, rapists, con artists, racists, pimps, whores, liars, or otherwise moral deficients. Statistically speaking, it's more or less a fact of life. Sucks, but true.

[Parkbandit]

The organization routinely turns over evidence (without investigation) to authorities, including the names of people responsible for potential fraud.

They are just a bunch of misunderstood good samaritans.. not really affiliated with anything political at all.......

Edited to add italics.. I didn't want to confuse Tsa'ah too much.

[Methais]

It's a group of 400,000 people, many of them volunteers. Show me any group of 400,000 people- regardless of the organization- without a few thieves, murderers, rapists, con artists, racists, pimps, whores, liars, or otherwise moral deficients. Statistically speaking, it's more or less a fact of life. Sucks, but true.

Not necessarily directed at you, but...

One guy shows up at a town hall meeting with an Obama-Hitler picture or whatever = OMFG ALL REPUBLICANS ARE RIGHT WING EXTREMIST NAZI DOMESTIC TERRORISTS!!!!!!!11

Left wing ACORN people get busted for various illegal fraudulent things = Well there's always gonna be a few bad apples in every group. What do you expect?

[TheEschaton]

I don't think the assertion was ever made that all town-hall meeting goers are crazy, the assertion was more like, "Holy shit, what's wrong with that guy?"

Edit: And that was more towards the ppl bringing AKs to the town hall meetings, not the picture carrying ppl, which can be expected anywhere.

[Tsa`ah]

Not necessarily directed at you, but...

One guy shows up at a town hall meeting with an Obama-Hitler picture or whatever = OMFG ALL REPUBLICANS ARE RIGHT WING EXTREMIST NAZI DOMESTIC TERRORISTS!!!!!!!11

Left wing ACORN people get busted for various illegal fraudulent things = Well there's always gonna be a few bad apples in every group. What do you expect?

It's a large organization geared to help the impoverished. It's sad that there are people on the right that view such organizations as a threat ... hence this guy setting up "sting" operations.

He was fishing, nothing more. Eventually you will run into scum bags in good organizations. When those organizations protect said scumbags ... well then you'll have an argument.

No one suggested "all republicans" ... the sentiment wasn't nearly as hyperbolic as you would like us to believe. Let's be clear though ... it wasn't one guy and one instance when it comes to the Nazi bullshit. Let's also be clear that there was an attempt on the right to deny it happened and then there was an attempt to defend it.

There is a big difference between an organization turning in it's own members to investigators (initiating legal investigations as a result), and say an investigation initiated via complaints due to the actions of an organization that has no interest in cooperation and fights it every step of the way. As in read about the fairly recent GOP voter registration faud convictions in CA.

Think of it like the uproar the Catholic church had to deal with when it stories began to surface, and then were confirmed, of child molestation. Would there have been an uproar had the church, very early on, adopted a zero tolerance policy and reported every allegation to the police? The answer is yes, there would have been an uproar ... but it would have been short lived and easily defensible. Instead they protected and enabled the guilty. I'm sorry, but ACORN is neither protecting or enabling the guilty.

[Seizer]

Not necessarily directed at you, but...

One guy shows up at a town hall meeting with an Obama-Hitler picture or whatever = OMFG ALL REPUBLICANS ARE RIGHT WING EXTREMIST NAZI DOMESTIC TERRORISTS!!!!!!!11

I had read a news story about that guy. He was black and was some type of union worker. Going to go out on a limb but if I recall right it may have been an SEIU worker plant. I cannot remember the source.


It's a large organization geared to help the impoverished. It's sad that there are people on the right that view such organizations as a threat ... hence this guy setting up "sting" operations.

Most Americans don't have a problem helping poor people out. The problem is when people who work like me, and pay taxes, have our tax money funneled to organizations that tend to have law breaking suspicions around them. Not to mention being pro-Obama. My taxes shouldn't be used to prop upper either side of the aisle for their political gain. Yes I know my taxes are used for a lot of things I don't agree with, not to mention I pay way too many taxes.

The other thing that chaps my ass is the blatant ignoring of the story by the major network news sources. Next thing I will hear is that they are not biased.

[Methais]

I don't think the assertion was ever made that all town-hall meeting goers are crazy, the assertion was more like, "Holy shit, what's wrong with that guy?"

I seem to recall Pelosi & crew calling them all (with or without signs or AK-47s) astroturf and nazis and un-American simply for opposed to the government takeover of health care, as opposed to saying, "Holy shit, what's wrong with that guy?" Pretty ironic claim if it really was an SEIU plant.


It's sad that there are people on the right that view such organizations as a threat ... hence this guy setting up "sting" operations.

Apparently he had good reason to believe so, based on his results.


The other thing that chaps my ass is the blatant ignoring of the story by the major network news sources. Next thing I will hear is that they are not biased.

THEY'RE NOT BIASED STOP BEING A NAZI!

Slightly on topic: Anyone know if any news stations not called Fox covered the "March to Washington" thing yesterday where there were thousands and thousands of people outside the White House protesting for the government to quit being gay? I'm gonna assume no.

Off topic: Shoney's breakfast buffet = win

[Seizer]

Slightly on topic: Anyone know if any news stations not called Fox covered the "March to Washington" thing yesterday where there were thousands and thousands of people outside the White House protesting for the government to quit being gay? I'm gonna assume no.

Not sure if they actually covered it but I did see the CNN van/bus there with camera crews out. My sister said she did see a five second piece of it on MSNBC. I got a lot of good pictures here is a few. I failed at camera settings though so a few turned out like crap.

Since I am a "Nazi" here was a good sign.
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa256/seizer524/IMG_0572.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa256/seizer524/IMG_0582.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa256/seizer524/IMG_0585.jpg

Resume ACORN topic.

[radamanthys]

Awesome- I wish I coulda been there.

[Tsa`ah]

I had read a news story about that guy. He was black and was some type of union worker. Going to go out on a limb but if I recall right it may have been an SEIU worker plant. I cannot remember the source.

Unless you have a source that verifies that the guy (in one instance) was a plant ... it's kind of an empty response no? To reiterate, you read somewhere that this one guy, out of how many instances, was a black union worker planted to make the opposition look bad.


Most Americans don't have a problem helping poor people out. The problem is when people who work like me, and pay taxes, have our tax money funneled to organizations that tend to have law breaking suspicions around them.

Yet the GOP used tax dollars, public campaign finance, to hire a guy who is now sitting in prison for registration fraud. We spent billions bailing out financial institutions ... not to mention the long history of federal dollars going to a number of organizations ranging from the charitable to the activists. You seem to be under the impression that ACORN has received huge buckets of cash ... which isn't even remotely true. Again, you're focusing on a few bad apples and making sweeping generalizations.


Not to mention being pro-Obama.

Pro-liberal/democrat, Obama just happens to fit the bill. What's the point?


My taxes shouldn't be used to prop upper either side of the aisle for their political gain. Yes I know my taxes are used for a lot of things I don't agree with, not to mention I pay way too many taxes.

Yet ACORN hasn't received all that much ... but you have a problem with them because of Obama?


The other thing that chaps my ass is the blatant ignoring of the story by the major network news sources. Next thing I will hear is that they are not biased.

Ignoring the story of a guy who is fishing for bad apples within an organization? It's not a story. He's been at it for a while now and was able to produce a few pieces of fruit. Congratulations, you've spent time and money trying to find corruption. I'm sure if he tried hard enough, he could find clergy dealing drugs out of churches.


I seem to recall Pelosi & crew calling them all (with or without signs or AK-47s) astroturf and nazis and un-American simply for opposed to the government takeover of health care, as opposed to saying, "Holy shit, what's wrong with that guy?" Pretty ironic claim if it really was an SEIU plant.

Care to post the quotes? Or is this more of the same "I read somewhere"?


Apparently he had good reason to believe so, based on his results.

Not really.


Slightly on topic: Anyone know if any news stations not called Fox covered the "March to Washington" thing yesterday where there were thousands and thousands of people outside the White House protesting for the government to quit being gay? I'm gonna assume no.


The media in general has kept manufactured news and events at arms length. That, and I doubt it was thousands and thousands.

[Parkbandit]

The media in general has kept manufactured news and events at arms length. That, and I doubt it was thousands and thousands.

The rest of your typical stupidity aside...

You doubt? Can I use that as a cite source now... considering most sources claimed it was 10's of thousands to even a million?

How fucking blissfully ignorant can a guy like you get? Seriously?

[Mabus]

considering most sources claimed it was 10's of thousands to even a million?
Low-ball figures put the turnout at 20,000-70,000. High-end figures state 1.2 to 2 million.

The reported figures of "1.2 million as reported by the National Park Service" I have seen re-posted on several blogs are likely BS, as I am fairly sure that the National Park Service stopped doing crowd estimation on the National Mall around 2001.

A time-lapsed video on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sjvc6baor8) seems to show a rather large crowd. Some are saying it was faked, or from another protest.

Even at the lowest figures (20,000) it would be a decently large protest. It was likely a fair amount larger.

[Rocktar]

How fucking blissfully ignorant can a guy like you get? Seriously?

He lives in a permanent state of ecstatic bliss.

[Keller]

I live 6 blocks north of the Mall. I walked to a bar about 2 blocks from the mall to watch the Notre Dame game on Saturday.

Let me tell you what struck me (besides the women wearing tea-bags for earrings) was the humor of thousands of obese white people protesting health care. You can't make that shit up. It's almost as funny as poor people protesting progressive tax rates. Poor, poor sheeple.

[Parkbandit]

I live 6 blocks north of the Mall. I walked to a bar about 2 blocks from the mall to watch the Notre Dame game on Saturday.

Let me tell you what struck me (besides the women wearing tea-bags for earrings) was the humor of thousands of obese white people protesting health care. You can't make that shit up. It's almost as funny as poor people protesting progressive tax rates. Poor, poor sheeple.

You might want to cite that source of "thousands" of obese white people.. since Tsa'ah has already doubted such an obvious exaggeration. You mean hundreds maybe?

It's less about a protest regarding healthcare or taxes or illegal aliens and more about the dangers of bloated government.

[g++]

So when is this Baltimore Brothel opening and will this tax advice help keep prices low is my main concern.

[Keller]

You might want to cite that source of "thousands" of obese white people.. since Tsa'ah has already doubted such an obvious exaggeration. You mean hundreds maybe?

It's less about a protest regarding healthcare or taxes or illegal aliens and more about the dangers of bloated government.

Those people should concern themselves with their bloated internal organs.

And there were absolutely thousands.

No where neat 100,000, but I'd bet close to 20,000.

[Parkbandit]

Those people should concern themselves with their bloated internal organs.

And there were absolutely thousands.

No where neat 100,000, but I'd bet close to 20,000.

I've heard anything from a few hundred (Tsa'ah) to 2 million (some right wing crazy source)

Just looking at the pictures, videos and a talking to a friend who went, I'm guessing it was much closer to 100,000 than it was 20,000. Hell, the lowest credible source (DC Fire Department) said it was between 50,000 and 70,000.

If it's only 20,000 people.. does that marginalize it enough to you?

[Keller]

I've heard anything from a few hundred (Tsa'ah) to 2 million (some right wing crazy source)

Just looking at the pictures, videos and a talking to a friend who went, I'm guessing it was much closer to 100,000 than it was 20,000. Hell, the lowest credible source (DC Fire Department) said it was between 50,000 and 70,000.

If it's only 20,000 people.. does that marginalize it enough to you?

Do you not think 20,000 people is a lot of people?

Have you ever had 20,000 people invade your neighborhood?

[Tsa`ah]

I've heard anything from a few hundred (Tsa'ah) to 2 million (some right wing crazy source)

Where did I say hundreds? I disputed the vague imagery of "thousands of thousands".


Just looking at the pictures, videos and a talking to a friend who went, I'm guessing it was much closer to 100,000 than it was 20,000. Hell, the lowest credible source (DC Fire Department) said it was between 50,000 and 70,000.

If it's only 20,000 people.. does that marginalize it enough to you?

I think you're a retard who is incapable of counting. That's beside the point.

The media didn't give this event much coverage because there weren't that many people in attendance in comparison to actual protests. Lack of coverage also stems from the people in attendance not really knowing what the fuck they're protesting.

It was a manufactured event with manufactured issues with dismal representation. Perfect for a person of limited thought such as yourself, but pretty laughable in the end.

[Parkbandit]

Where did I say hundreds? I disputed the vague imagery of "thousands of thousands".

Nice backtrack Shit4Brains. It wasn't "Thousands of thousands", your quote was "thousands and thousands". I realize that counting up high confuses you a great deal... case in point a baseball playing hitting 1000.. but a thousand is a number that is given after nine hundred ninety nine.




I think you're a retard who is incapable of counting. That's beside the point.


The sheer irony here is delicious, coming from you. YOU made the claim that it wasn't thousands and thousands. No one else. I just merely pointed out what an idiot you are to believe it. Did you get that from Keith Olbermann?



The media didn't give this event much coverage because there weren't that many people in attendance in comparison to actual protests. Lack of coverage also stems from the people in attendance not really knowing what the fuck they're protesting.

It was a manufactured event with manufactured issues with dismal representation. Perfect for a person of limited thought such as yourself, but pretty laughable in the end.

Riiiiiight. It couldn't be business as usual for the state run media.. could it?

Keep drinking the Koolaid, Shit4Brains.. it's great for growing bones and good health. Really.

[Parkbandit]

Do you not think 20,000 people is a lot of people?

Have you ever had 20,000 people invade your neighborhood?

Look at Tsa'ah's post right after yours. He calls it a dismal representation.. of course he's now saying it might have been thousands and thousands. You are taking one of the lowest estimates available out there.. seems to me you are playing the same game as Tsa'ah.. marginalizing the amount of protesters.

Had this many people showed up for a Anti-Bush protest, it would be front page news on every newspaper as well as the lead story on most news casts. The fact that this got so little coverage should not only make you question the media.. but it should also make you realize how biased our media is towards one political party.

[Keller]

Look at Tsa'ah's post right after yours. He calls it a dismal representation.. of course he's now saying it might have been thousands and thousands. You are taking one of the lowest estimates available out there.. seems to me you are playing the same game as Tsa'ah.. marginalizing the amount of protesters.

Had this many people showed up for a Anti-Bush protest, it would be front page news on every newspaper as well as the lead story on most news casts. The fact that this got so little coverage should not only make you question the media.. but it should also make you realize how biased our media is towards one political party.

I pretty conspicuously stated that I walked around in the crowd and I estimated 20,000.

I didn't "take" anyone's estimate.

I'm sorry you think 20,000 people is not a lot.

I think it's entirely too many.

[Methais]

Unless you have a source that verifies that the guy (in one instance) was a plant ... it's kind of an empty response no? To reiterate, you read somewhere that this one guy, out of how many instances, was a black union worker planted to make the opposition look bad.



Yet the GOP used tax dollars, public campaign finance, to hire a guy who is now sitting in prison for registration fraud. We spent billions bailing out financial institutions ... not to mention the long history of federal dollars going to a number of organizations ranging from the charitable to the activists. You seem to be under the impression that ACORN has received huge buckets of cash ... which isn't even remotely true. Again, you're focusing on a few bad apples and making sweeping generalizations.



Pro-liberal/democrat, Obama just happens to fit the bill. What's the point?



Yet ACORN hasn't received all that much ... but you have a problem with them because of Obama?



Ignoring the story of a guy who is fishing for bad apples within an organization? It's not a story. He's been at it for a while now and was able to produce a few pieces of fruit. Congratulations, you've spent time and money trying to find corruption. I'm sure if he tried hard enough, he could find clergy dealing drugs out of churches.



Care to post the quotes? Or is this more of the same "I read somewhere"?




Not really.



The media in general has kept manufactured news and events at arms length. That, and I doubt it was thousands and thousands.

So you want me to post quotes about the whole Pelosi nazi thing, which is already well documented, but you have no problem labeling the March to Washington as a manufactured event?

Here's your Pelosi quote, straight from Pelosi. But you knew this already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGzAi4vZqYI

And then you go saying ACORN hasn't received much money? They've received $53 million since 1994, and who knows how much more from the "stimulus".

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/special-editorial-reports/ACORN-got-53-million-in-federal-funds-since-94-now-eligible-for-up-to-8-billion-more-44406217.html

Care to post links showing that ACORN hasn't gotten "all that much"?


Yet the GOP used tax dollars, public campaign finance, to hire a guy who is now sitting in prison for registration fraud.

That makes me perfectly ok for Obama to hire frauds and tax cheats and criminals and communists to his administration to fuck up the country even more while our tax dollars pay for it, right?

And just because I stumbled on it and feel like posting it, who wants to deny that the following pics would be considered racist if they were about Obama instead of Bush? The media outrage would be astronomical. Swap right for left in the last one.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/DonaldDouglas/Americaneocon/Bush_Protest.jpg

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/DonaldDouglas/Americaneocon/143-4350_IMG.jpg

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/DonaldDouglas/Americaneocon/142-4261_IMG-Post-Election.jpg

[TheRunt]

No where neat 100,000, but I'd bet close to 20,000.

I wasn't there, but from the videos I'd say at least 250,000 at a minimum, the organizers state 450,000, dc police I have heard estimated it at 1.2 million, the Fire department 60-70,000, spokesman for the National Park Service, Dan Bana, is quoted as saying "It is a record.... We believe it is the largest event held in Washington, D.C., ever." :puzzled:

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/includes/templates/library/flash_popup.php?pID=288868-1&clipStart=&clipStop=

And how the parks department estimates the count.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-01-19-crowd_N.htm

[Parkbandit]

I think one side is marginalizing the crowd by saying it was only 20,000 fat white people and the other side is inflating by saying it was between 1.5 and 2 million.

You aren't being intellectually honest right now if after looking at the pictures, reading the different estimates, the best guess you come up with is 20,000.

[TheRunt]

Oh and back on topic, a third video was released today. Whats really funny is, its from the New York branch.


This recent scam, which was attempted in San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Philadelphia to name a few places, had failed for months before the results we’ve all recently seen.
-Bertha Lewis, Chief Organizer, ACORN

http://biggovernment.com/2009/09/14/acorn-video-prostitution-scandal-in-new-york-ny/

How many more does this guy have?

[Methais]

The media didn't give this event much coverage because there weren't that many people in attendance in comparison to actual protests. Lack of coverage also stems from the people in attendance not really knowing what the fuck they're protesting.

That's a weak ass excuse and you know you could have come up with something better.

Think about it....if the protests were full of clueless people that didn't know what they were protesting or talking about, the mainstream media would be all over them to broadcast their cluelessness all over TV and be like SEE GUYS HOW STOOPID THESE RIGHT WINGERS ARE?!?!?!

[Daniel]

I wasn't there, but from the videos I'd say at least 250,000 at a minimum, the organizers state 450,000, dc police I have heard estimated it at 1.2 million, the Fire department 60-70,000, spokesman for the National Park Service, Dan Bana, is quoted as saying "It is a record.... We believe it is the largest event held in Washington, D.C., ever." :puzzled:

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/includes/templates/library/flash_popup.php?pID=288868-1&clipStart=&clipStop=

And how the parks department estimates the count.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-01-19-crowd_N.htm

I'm gonna go out on a limb about it not being the biggest event In dc "ever".

[g++]

I'm gonna go out on a limb about it not being the biggest event I'm dc "ever".

The estimate was about 1.5 million for the swearing in like 8 months ago...i cant believe the crowd was anywhere near that size.

[Keller]

Swap right for left in the last one.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/DonaldDouglas/Americaneocon/142-4261_IMG-Post-Election.jpg

There were people all over town on Saturday with shirts and signs similar to this, but with the right.

People talking about needing to buy guns for the revolution, people saying "WE ARE THE MOB", etc.

Not sure why the "state-run" media didn't run with that. Maybe they did but your tin-foil hat interferred with the signal.

Who knows.

[Keller]

I think one side is marginalizing the crowd by saying it was only 20,000 fat white people and the other side is inflating by saying it was between 1.5 and 2 million.

You aren't being intellectually honest right now if after looking at the pictures, reading the different estimates, the best guess you come up with is 20,000.

A lot of them were obese. Almost all of them were white. Nearly all of them had at least all of their teeth. Those are facts.

And again, I WALKED AROUND AND ESTIMATED 20K.

I did not see pictures. I did not read estimates. I wish you would read the words I write. Please.

[Methais]

There were people all over town on Saturday with shirts and signs similar to this, but with the right.

Those people are equally stupid.

[Keller]

Those people are equally stupid.

I think I said something very similar to this a few months ago, but those people (the right-wing nutcases) scare me more than the others (the left-wing nutcases) because those people will "rise" by violent revolution (see: right to bear arms necessary to overthrow government) instead of political processes (see: 2008 election).

[Parkbandit]

A lot of them were obese. Almost all of them were white. Nearly all of them had at least all of their teeth. Those are facts.

And again, I WALKED AROUND AND ESTIMATED 20K.

I did not see pictures. I did not read estimates. I wish you would read the words I write. Please.

Feel free to educate yourself then. Wallowing in your own ignorance is no way to go through life. Right now, you are no better than Tsa'ah ( and I apologize for that insult.. but you had it coming)

You walked around.. came up with 20K. Fantastic. Which method did you use.. did you just start counting and then once you hit 20,000, you had to go home for lunch?

Now do just a little bit of reading.. let us know what you've come up with from there. Links have been provided in this thread.. google some more up.

Let us know what conclusions you came up with after getting more facts that you just "walking around".

[TheEschaton]

I don't care if 20345 million people walked on Washington, they're still misinformed and wrong (potentially due to the misinformation).

It was a significant enough protest considering the idiotic cause it was rallying around. 50,000 (totally made up by me right now) people protesting against health care for everyone is insane.

However, I was in D.C. during both anti-globalization events and anti-war events in 2003, and the Metro police, "downplayed" those events by saying there were 100k-200k people at them, and they were much larger than the event herein depicted. My guess is the actual number of the protests I attended were about 500k, since the organizers quoted 1m.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

I don't care if 20345 million people walked on Washington, they're still misinformed and wrong (potentially due to the misinformation).

It was a significant enough protest considering the idiotic cause it was rallying around. 50,000 (totally made up by me right now) people protesting against health care for everyone is insane.

However, I was in D.C. during both anti-globalization events and anti-war events in 2003, and the Metro police, "downplayed" those events by saying there were 100k-200k people at them, and they were much larger than the event herein depicted. My guess is the actual number of the protests I attended were about 500k, since the organizers quoted 1m.

-TheE-

Dude.. ever consider that it might be you that's misinformed?

This had very little to do with healthcare and almost everything to do with the amount of money our Government has been doling out over the past 6-7 years. It started with Bush II, but Obama is making him look like a little old lady who steals hotel soaps to save money.

The amount of money we are spending is staggering.. and it's just begun.

[g++]

Dude.. ever consider that it might be you that's misinformed?

Dude didn’t you read his post? It was probably caused by misinformation. I think hes got his argument wrapped up pretty tight this time.

[Keller]

Feel free to educate yourself then. Wallowing in your own ignorance is no way to go through life. Right now, you are no better than Tsa'ah ( and I apologize for that insult.. but you had it coming)

You walked around.. came up with 20K. Fantastic. Which method did you use.. did you just start counting and then once you hit 20,000, you had to go home for lunch?

Now do just a little bit of reading.. let us know what you've come up with from there. Links have been provided in this thread.. google some more up.

Let us know what conclusions you came up with after getting more facts that you just "walking around".

From the bottom of my heart, lick my nutsack.

I'm sorry you didn't read that I walked from my house to a bar and estimated there to be around 20k people. I'm sorry that you thought I was passing that off as a fact, a conclusion, or anything better than my own guess. I really don't care how many people were here. The only thing I concluded is that there were thousands of people. I'm sorry you FAIL at reading comprehension.

I will not apologize for being precisely clear in what I was stating just because you cannot comprehend what you were reading. Sorry, I won't forgive stupidity.

[Methais]

I think I said something very similar to this a few months ago, but those people (the right-wing nutcases) scare me more than the others (the left-wing nutcases) because those people will "rise" by violent revolution (see: right to bear arms necessary to overthrow government) instead of political processes (see: 2008 election).

Don't forget vandalizing democrat offices by smashing windows.

Oh wait that was a democrat that did it.

[Parkbandit]

From the bottom of my heart, lick my nutsack.

I'm sorry you didn't read that I walked from my house to a bar and estimated there to be around 20k people. I'm sorry that you thought I was passing that off as a fact, a conclusion, or anything better than my own guess. I really don't care how many people were here. The only thing I concluded is that there were thousands of people. I'm sorry you FAIL at reading comprehension.

I will not apologize for being precisely clear in what I was stating just because you cannot comprehend what you were reading. Sorry, I won't forgive stupidity.

Quoted for the sheer entertainment value.

From now on.. if I don't want to list a source for anything I state on these boards.. I'm just going to say I have a gut feeling about it.. or that I asked a neighbor.

That is pretty much the same as you saying the crowd in DC was only 20,000.. because that's what you figured out by walking from your house to a bar.

You won't forgive stupidity... you just dispense it like a Pez.

[Daniel]

Quoted for the sheer entertainment value.

From now on.. if I don't want to list a source for anything I state on these boards.. I'm just going to say I have a gut feeling about it.. or that I asked a neighbor.

That is pretty much the same as you saying the crowd in DC was only 20,000.. because that's what you figured out by walking from your house to a bar.

You won't forgive stupidity... you just dispense it like a Pez.

Because you did so much better LOOKING AT PICTURES on the internet and talking to your "friend" who went there? Get real.

[Keller]

Quoted for the sheer entertainment value.

From now on.. if I don't want to list a source for anything I state on these boards.. I'm just going to say I have a gut feeling about it.. or that I asked a neighbor.

That is pretty much the same as you saying the crowd in DC was only 20,000.. because that's what you figured out by walking from your house to a bar.

You won't forgive stupidity... you just dispense it like a Pez.

I really don't understand how anyone tolerates you.

In estimating 20k, I was supporting your position that there were not merely hundreds of people. As support, I stated that I was walking around.

I was not attempting to conclude anything. I was not stating any facts. I was estimating, in very clear language, the number of people I thought were there on Saturday.

[Parkbandit]

I really don't understand how anyone tolerates you.

In estimating 20k, I was supporting your position that there were not merely hundreds of people. As support, I stated that I was walking around.

I was not attempting to conclude anything. I was not stating any facts. I was estimating, in very clear language, the number of people I thought were there on Saturday.

Bolded the part where you failed miserably.

:(

[Mabus]

It started with Bush II, but Obama is making him look like a little old lady who steals hotel soaps to save money.
I just want to agree with the fact that a lot of people in the Tea Party movement did get energized against GW, and are continuing to protest.

While GOP members (and GOP organizations) have joined in, many of the protesters where initially shocked into action by the huge bailouts from the previous administration.

I believe those bailouts also caused bipartisan (and even multi-partisan, to include us "no party" people) outrage on these forums.

[Parkbandit]

Because you did so much better LOOKING AT PICTURES on the internet and talking to your "friend" who went there? Get real.

Easy Danny.. I'm sorry for picking on your little pal. He doesn't need rescuing quite yet. I'm sure he'll send you a PM when he does.

[Mabus]

50,000 (totally made up by me right now) people protesting against health care for everyone is insane.

Any number of people believing that the currently proposed bills (the main ones, HR 3200, HR 3400, HR 3600 and the Baucus Framework) are all about "health care for everyone" would likewise be insane.

These bills are about protecting the insurance and pharmaceutical industries profits.

[Parkbandit]

Any number of people believing that the currently proposed bills (the main ones, HR 3200, HR 3400, HR 3600 and the Baucus Framework) are all about "health care for everyone" would likewise be insane.

These bills are about protecting the insurance and pharmaceutical industries profits.

Let's not forget about bailing out the legacy costs of the unions either..

[Seizer]

Unless you have a source that verifies that the guy (in one instance) was a plant ... it's kind of an empty response no? To reiterate, you read somewhere that this one guy, out of how many instances, was a black union worker planted to make the opposition look bad.
Your missing the point. Nor did I claim absolute authenticity on it.

As far as the Acorn stuff goes, would you be so jovial if your tax dollars were being used for causes you are vehemently against? Let's say teaching creationism! I doubt it. You should be pissed your taxes dollars are being used for corrupt organizations. Don't give me the bs that they haven't gotten much. They just applied for a 6 million dollar grant paid for by you and me for digital media crap for the internet.

The media in general has kept manufactured news and events at arms length. That, and I doubt it was thousands and thousands.
Well you don't have to doubt I can send you more pictures if you want.

You need to wake up and realize our basic Constitutional rights are under attack here. Before anyone says show me where they have been violated go pound salt. You have to agree with our basic rights and first and foremost our freedom of speech, even if you do not agree with the other sides speech it should not be quashed. The one thing that comes to mind is the emails from the White House or the third party that was hired to send them out asking citizens to rat out other citizens about things on the healthcare plan that were to be deemed untrue. Hello George Orwell.

I mean you do realize these bills are not being written by our representatives and senators? They are paying for an outside source to write them. What the hell were they elected for if they aren't going to do their job. Also why do these bills have to be voted on right here and now? Why can't they sit on the shelf be read and studied for months? I mean we have gotten by without healthcare reform for how long now?

[Parkbandit]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A poverty-rights group that has drawn the ire of conservatives suffered another setback in Washington on Monday when the U.S. Senate voted overwhelmingly to deny it access to federal housing funds.

The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, which helps poor people fight foreclosures and fix tax problems, has received more than $53 million in U.S. funds since 1994, but conservatives' charges of widespread fraud have begun to impact its reputation in the capital.

Last week, the U.S. Census Bureau told the group it did not want its help boosting participation in next year's census.

The Senate measure, which passed 83 to 7 in the Democratic-led chamber, was included in a must-pass spending bill that funds housing and transportation programs for the fiscal year that starts October 1.

"This is an opportunity for the United States Senate to stand up and say 'Enough is enough' just as the Census Bureau did," said Republican Senator Mike Johanns, the measure's sponsor.

The bill includes $165 million for housing-counseling programs and $4 billion to help poor communities weather the worst recession since the 1930s.

ACORN said the Senate's action was disappointing but would have little impact on its overall operations.

"The only real victims of today's vote are the families who have benefited from ACORN's important work," ACORN chief Bertha Lewis said in a statement posted on the group's website.

The House of Representatives passed a similar spending bill without restrictions on ACORN. The House and Senate must resolved differences before a final measure can be sent to Obama to sign into law.

Republicans say ACORN engaged in widespread fraud during the 2008 presidential campaign when it launched a massive voter-registration drive in minority communities, which typically support Democrats and ended up voting overwhelmingly for President Barack Obama.

ACORN says less than 2 percent of its 1.3 million voter applications were fraudulent, stemming from canvassers who sought to boost the number of forms they turned in. Independent analysts say any actual impact on the election was negligible.

The group has also suffered an embezzlement scandal involving the founder's brother.

ACORN more recently has been embarrassed by conservative activists who secretly taped employees in several cities giving tax advice to a couple posing as a pimp and prostitute.

The group has fired several of those taped while denouncing the actions as a smear campaign.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE58D6CW20090914

I think they are just misunderstood... such a good, wholesome group.

[Seizer]

People talking about needing to buy guns for the revolution, people saying "WE ARE THE MOB", etc.
I must have had my ears plugged during my time at the rally and while speaking with many other people on the Metro. I did not hear this once.

I WALKED AROUND AND ESTIMATED 20K.
Were you that guy with the "I failed Reganomics" sign walking away from the crowd?

I think I said something very similar to this a few months ago, but those people (the right-wing nutcases) scare me more than the others (the left-wing nutcases) because those people will "rise" by violent revolution (see: right to bear arms necessary to overthrow government) instead of political processes (see: 2008 election).
That is a troubling statement. Any far wing nutcase is scary. To associate and agree with them is worse. If the side I support is so violent why wasn't there mass arrests of protesters? I happen to recall a WTO summit rally in Seattle of 1999 that turned very violent.

The signs were there. Last week's tumultuous World Trade Organization meetings in Seattle -- which began last Tuesday, November 30, with protests and riots and ended in failure last Friday, when trade ministers were unable to set an agenda for future talks -- hit America like a sucker punch, but the showdown (and the potential for trouble) had long been anticipated in left-leaning activist circles. For months labor leaders, environmentalists, and human-rights groups had been hyping the conference as an unprecedented opportunity to protest the pace of economic globalization and the politics of free trade. If you had a beef about anything from trade tariffs to netted sea turtles to Starbucks, Seattle was going to be the place to be.
That was from a Boston Phoenix article.

I can dig up more. Tiananmen Square comes to mind as well too. Well before anyone goes on that it was the Chinese government, recall that Communists are considered far left nutcases.

[Daniel]

So close to Godwin but so far....

[Latrinsorm]

The Senate measure, which passed 83 to 7 in the Democratic-led chamber, was included in a must-pass spending bill that funds housing and transportation programs for the fiscal year that starts October 1.God bless America!

[Keller]

I must have had my ears plugged during my time at the rally and while speaking with many other people on the Metro. I did not hear this once.

I apologize (sincerely) as I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

I know I said "talk" but I was referring to the shirts/signs people were carrying.

"I am the mob" was almost a brand I saw those t-shirts so often.

Not sure how you didn't see those.

[Methais]

I heard next week they were gonna redo "We Are the World" as "We Are the Mob".

Any news on that Keller?

[Parkbandit]

I heard next week they were gonna redo "We Are the World" as "We Are the Mob".

Any news on that Keller?

As he walked from his home to the bar, he found that 43% of the protesters would be interested in such a redo.

[Gan]

I heard there were more than the NYC Acorn video out. I've yet to see them though.

[Parkbandit]

I heard there were more than the NYC Acorn video out. I've yet to see them though.

I haven't either, but I got my Fox News Update this morning via text from my crazy father in law.

Weird.. I watched some of the Today Show this morning.. not a single mention. Weird. I hope some sting happens at a place like the NRA and someone does something stupid.. it'll be the lead story.

But hey.. there's no media bias in this country at all......

[Keller]

As he walked from his home to the bar, he found that 43% of the protesters would be interested in such a redo.

For such an immature little man, you sure act like an ornery old bastard.

[Parkbandit]

For such an immature little man, you sure act like an ornery old bastard.

Awe. Someone's back to being mad at me again.

What's the matter... You can give it, you just can't take it?

Sorry... When you are acting like the Pez Dispenser of Stupidity... I'm going to continue to be entertained. If you don't like my commentary, stop posting obviously stupid things.

[Keller]

Awe. Someone's back to being mad at me again.

What's the matter... You can give it, you just can't take it?

Sorry... When you are acting like the Pez Dispenser of Stupidity... I'm going to continue to be entertained. If you don't like my commentary, stop posting obviously stupid things.

Because I supported your assertion that there were more than "hundreds" of people at a protest by very clearly estimating the number of people?

Get a grip, kid.

[TheRunt]

I heard there were more than the NYC Acorn video out. I've yet to see them though.

The NYC was the third one released so far. Here is the guys youtube page. Its got the current three on it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/veritasvisuals#play/uploads

[Parkbandit]

Holy shit, I'm hijacking some random ISP.. and have done so for the past 4 years while doing work.. and this brings back some BAD memories from Hilton:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/Websense.jpg

FUCK WEBSENSE!!!

[Donquix]

I haven't either, but I got my Fox News Update this morning via text from my crazy father in law.

Weird.. I watched some of the Today Show this morning.. not a single mention. Weird. I hope some sting happens at a place like the NRA and someone does something stupid.. it'll be the lead story.

But hey.. there's no media bias in this country at all......

SERIOUSLY...when is the party made up of affluent white males going to get a fair shake in this country?

[Parkbandit]

SERIOUSLY...when is the party made up of affluent white males going to get a fair shake in this country?

So it's a race issue... or are you just stupid as usual?

[Tsa`ah]

Nice backtrack Shit4Brains. It wasn't "Thousands of thousands", your quote was "thousands and thousands". I realize that counting up high confuses you a great deal... case in point a baseball playing hitting 1000.. but a thousand is a number that is given after nine hundred ninety nine.

Dear god ... why didn't his parents abort?


The sheer irony here is delicious, coming from you. YOU made the claim that it wasn't thousands and thousands. No one else. I just merely pointed out what an idiot you are to believe it. Did you get that from Keith Olbermann?

... with a coat hanger?




Riiiiiight. It couldn't be business as usual for the state run media.. could it?

Keep drinking the Koolaid, Shit4Brains.. it's great for growing bones and good health. Really.

Editor in chief at the AM meeting. "Next we have the tea baggers march on Washington"

Staff ...

Editor in chief "Anyone?"

Random staffer "Is the launch of a new McDonald's product news worthy?"

Editor in chief "Never has been"

Random staffer "Then why would a corporate sponsored, organized, and executed "protest" be news? Why not just interview Dick Army and save resources for real news?"

Editor in chief "Right ... let Fox run with it."

[Tsa`ah]

So you want me to post quotes about the whole Pelosi nazi thing, which is already well documented, but you have no problem labeling the March to Washington as a manufactured event?

Here's your Pelosi quote, straight from Pelosi. But you knew this already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGzAi4vZqYI

Yet that's not what you suggested, nor is it what I asked for. Pelosi was responding to a question and gave a direct answer. Much of the early protestation was in the form of plants ... and yes there were people carrying imagery that attempted to convey a relation between the administration and Nazism.

Are you incapable of understanding that clip ... or do you just have it book marked for your response to everything?


And then you go saying ACORN hasn't received much money? They've received $53 million since 1994, and who knows how much more from the "stimulus".

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/special-editorial-reports/ACORN-got-53-million-in-federal-funds-since-94-now-eligible-for-up-to-8-billion-more-44406217.html

Care to post links showing that ACORN hasn't gotten "all that much"?

So you believe 53 million over 15 years is a lot of money? I'm thinking you don't really believe so, you're just tossing things out there with the hopes that they'll stick. Just like the statement referring to stimulus ... you're running with the Fox torch again. Just because they could be eligible for stimulus cash doesn't mean they received stimulus cash. Come back with a concrete figure and we'll talk.


That makes me perfectly ok for Obama to hire frauds and tax cheats and criminals and communists to his administration to fuck up the country even more while our tax dollars pay for it, right?

Who are the criminals? Who are the frauds? Who are the tax cheats? Who the fuck cares if he hires communists, outside of you and small minded people like you that is.


And just because I stumbled on it and feel like posting it, who wants to deny that the following pics would be considered racist if they were about Obama instead of Bush? The media outrage would be astronomical. Swap right for left in the last one.

A racist crying about imagery that would be potentially racist if the person in office would have been black. Get the fuck over it.

How would "Obama is a psychotic murderer" be considered racist? To be honest, I'd rather see an unarmed white chick with that sign than a guy carrying an AK with a picture of Hitler ... any day of the week.

A burning effigy? Put in the proper context then. A bunch of white people around a burning effigy of a white guy is about as racist as a burning effigy of a black man ... surrounded by blacks.

The left will rise? I have to ask ... what the fuck do you smoke before you post?

[Tsa`ah]

That's a weak ass excuse and you know you could have come up with something better.

There's nothing weak about it. I've watched random interviews over the past three days and the collective "protest" reads like a kid with severe ADD at a circus.

These people didn't know what the protest was about. I am still trying to figure out what the protest was about.


Think about it....if the protests were full of clueless people that didn't know what they were protesting or talking about, the mainstream media would be all over them to broadcast their cluelessness all over TV and be like SEE GUYS HOW STOOPID THESE RIGHT WINGERS ARE?!?!?!

I'm going to have to disagree and toss your own words back at you ...

"That's a weak ass excuse and you know you could have come up with something better."

[Tsa`ah]

Your missing the point. Nor did I claim absolute authenticity on it.

No I'm not missing the point. You made the claim, based off of an article you can't find, that there was a leftist plant who held up Nazi propaganda ... a black union member. I would like to see the article that debunks at least one instance of a person protesting with Nazi imagery.


As far as the Acorn stuff goes, would you be so jovial if your tax dollars were being used for causes you are vehemently against? Let's say teaching creationism! I doubt it. You should be pissed your taxes dollars are being used for corrupt organizations. Don't give me the bs that they haven't gotten much. They just applied for a 6 million dollar grant paid for by you and me for digital media crap for the internet.

There's are distinct differences between my protests of tax dollars used for faith based abstinence programs and the teaching of creationism in public schools. It's called the first amendment. My issues are/were based within the confines of the constitution. What are your objections to ACORN? Oh right, a right wing media outlet gave a platform to a right wing nut case .... and out of an organization of a couple hundred thousand, were able to "sting" six people.

I'll hold my reservations about tax dollars and the organization until there's a probe/investigation conducted.


Well you don't have to doubt I can send you more pictures if you want.

I've seen the pictures. I'm going to have to say that 50,000 is probably a good stretch of the truth ... Realistically I'd say 20-30k. I'm sorry, but that's not a large protest for the venue.


You need to wake up and realize our basic Constitutional rights are under attack here.

I abhor empty rhetoric ... so if you want me to wake up with the claim of Constitutional attacks ... you're going to have to list what the attacks are. You're no different than every third person interviewed at your little "protest". I want specifics ... otherwise you're just blowing fecal matter out of your pie hole, pre-scripted and regurgitated rhetoric that lacks any sort of merit.


Before anyone says show me where they have been violated go pound salt. You have to agree with our basic rights and first and foremost our freedom of speech, even if you do not agree with the other sides speech it should not be quashed.

Yet you open with a statement that is going to lead to a response of "go pound salt".


The one thing that comes to mind is the emails from the White House or the third party that was hired to send them out asking citizens to rat out other citizens about things on the healthcare plan that were to be deemed untrue. Hello George Orwell.

Your "one thing" is supposed to be indicative of a full fledged assault on the constitution? I'm sorry, but the whole "ratting" out your neighbor wasn't "ratting" out your neighbor. It was an attempt to reign in bullshit propaganda ... you know the outright lies that were/are being spread around?

The argument would have legs to run on if people were being detained or "silenced" as a result.

At this point ... I have to ask, do you live in a basement stocked with MREs and bottled water?


I mean you do realize these bills are not being written by our representatives and senators? They are paying for an outside source to write them. What the hell were they elected for if they aren't going to do their job. Also why do these bills have to be voted on right here and now? Why can't they sit on the shelf be read and studied for months? I mean we have gotten by without healthcare reform for how long now?

You're using this as an indictment of the current administration and the democratic party?

LOL ... welcome to the real world. It's been going on since the first congress.

[Parkbandit]

Dear god ... why didn't his parents abort?

... with a coat hanger?

So wait.. you didn't address your dysfunctional math once again? What a surprise..

I, for one, am glad your Parents didn't abort you (though, in hindsight, that would have been far better for them). Your "special" brand of stupidity is a rare thing here. Add to that the nerdy, inhaler needing person behind your posts brings a certain cherry on top of your retard sundae you create every time you post. It's awesome.

Keep it up, Louis Skolnick!!

[Parkbandit]

I've seen the pictures. I'm going to have to say that 50,000 is probably a good stretch of the truth ... Realistically I'd say 20-30k. I'm sorry, but that's not a large protest for the venue.


So.. it's gone from hundreds, to now 20-30K. And what exactly did you base this conclusion on again? Just a gut feeling? Maybe you walked to a bar?

The LOWEST credible estimate I've found so far is 50K... but I guess that wasn't low enough for your needs?

Seriously Shit4Brains.. math is one subject you should shy away from.

[Methais]

Yet that's not what you suggested, nor is it what I asked for. Pelosi was responding to a question and gave a direct answer. Much of the early protestation was in the form of plants ... and yes there were people carrying imagery that attempted to convey a relation between the administration and Nazism.

Are you incapable of understanding that clip ... or do you just have it book marked for your response to everything?

Yeah that's it, you got me. The left hasn't made any claims of Naziism, domestic terrorism, being un-American, racism, etc. towards people that are protesting.


Much of the early protestation was in the form of plants ...

Please provide proof. The only plants I saw were from a video before a town hall meeting where some left-wing union asshole was instructing some other asshole to stand up and start yelling if someone near him stood up to speak out against Obamacare, until the other guy got frustrated and sat back down.

Actually I take that back. There were plants protesting. LOOK THERE MUST BE HUNDREDS OF THEM!!!!1

http://susty.com/image/white-house-organic-garden-lawn-planted-rows-of-vegetable-green-leafy-plants-washington-dc-president-front-columns-pennsylvania-avenue-photo.jpg

And while not considered a plant, where was the mainstream coverage of some democrat loser vandalizing some democrat office building by smashing the windows so they could blame it on republicans?



So you believe 53 million over 15 years is a lot of money?

Compared to Obama's spending, no it's not. In reality, it is a lot of money, especially when it's tax dollars being funneled to a corrupt left-wing organization. Fortunately Congress decided to cut off ACORN's money. I bet those ACORN videos this week were the only instances of fraud and corruption they've ever been involved in and they just happened to be caught on tape.


I'm thinking you don't really believe so, you're just tossing things out there with the hopes that they'll stick. Just like the statement referring to stimulus ... you're running with the Fox torch again. Just because they could be eligible for stimulus cash doesn't mean they received stimulus cash. Come back with a concrete figure and we'll talk.

Ok, here's your concrete figure: ACORN has received $53 million since '94. And if it weren't for the recent whorehouse videos, they most likely would have gotten much more. But keep being in denial if that helps you sleep.


Who are the criminals? Who are the frauds? Who are the tax cheats?

Tim Geithner comes to mind first. Or are you gonna deny that too and/or say, "It was an honest mistake he didn't pay his taxes all those years!"?


Who the fuck cares if he hires communists, outside of you and small minded people like you that is.

Seriously? Who cares if the President of the United States hires communists to high ranking government "czar" positions? Please enlighten me on how having communists appointed to such positions is good for the country. Then please explain how not wanting communists in the American government is being small minded.



A racist crying about imagery that would be potentially racist if the person in office would have been black. Get the fuck over it.

When all other arguments fail, call the other guy a racist right? Get the fuck over it.
http://pevepe.myblogg.se/files/2009/06/broken_i_win_button1.jpg


How would "Obama is a psychotic murderer" be considered racist? To be honest, I'd rather see an unarmed white chick with that sign than a guy carrying an AK with a picture of Hitler ... any day of the week.

Because it's speaking out against Obama, and the left has made it abundantly clear that anyone who disagrees with Obama or says anything bad about him is doing so strictly because he's black. Ironically, Obama is one of the only ones on the left who doesn't play the race card. Even when he says that he doesn't believe that X said Y because he's black, the left insists it's the case anyway.


The left will rise? I have to ask ... what the fuck do you smoke before you post?

I was pointing out that when people on the left do retarded things like that, it's totally ok regardless of how stupid it is. But if someone on the right does it, they're working for Satan.

I really didn't think it had to be spelled out for you.

While we're on the subject of lols, Charlie Gibson, the awesome and super informed news reporter he is, claims he knew absolutely nothing about the ACORN videos.

But the mainstream media goes straight down the middle, right?


I'm going to have to disagree and toss your own words back at you ...

"That's a weak ass excuse and you know you could have come up with something better."

Let's backtrack:

- Thousands of people show up in DC to protest
- Mainstream media doesn't cover it

Your response:


The media didn't give this event much coverage because there weren't that many people in attendance in comparison to actual protests. Lack of coverage also stems from the people in attendance not really knowing what the fuck they're protesting.

And you're saying that's not a weak ass excuse? How many people are required to be at an event before it's no longer considered "not that many"? Please give numbers.

And yes, if the people were as clueless as you say, the mainstream would have been right there to try and exploit it and run around saying OMG LOOK HOW STOOPID THESE PROTESTERS ARE! I MEAN JUST LISTEN TO THIS INTERVIEW! [ROLL TAPE], like that cuntrag that was at April 15 tea party tried to do and failed miserably. Did you know CNN let her go a few months ago? Shocking.

Pretty sure the most likely reason it got no coverage is because they think if they pretend it's not happening, nobody will notice and it will go away. Just like how they're doing now with their lack of coverage for the ACORN situation and anything else that makes the left look bad. What's your justification for that?

I'm going to have to disagree with you and toss your own words back at you...

What the fuck do you smoke before you post?

[Donquix]

So it's a race issue... or are you just stupid as usual?

You're bad at being a troll, it's kind of depressing. :(


So.. it's gone from hundreds, to now 20-30K. And what exactly did you base this conclusion on again? Just a gut feeling? Maybe you walked to a bar?

The LOWEST credible estimate I've found so far is 50K... but I guess that wasn't low enough for your needs?

Seriously Shit4Brains.. math is one subject you should shy away from.

Bolded the part that is subjective that you don't seem to think is.

Around 2 million showed up for the inauguration...which completely filled the mall, and spilled out into the streets like 20 blocks deep, packed like sardines.

the 9/12 rally did not even fill up the public access area of the mall, with people marching around and chilling in lawn chairs.

http://pbump.net/912.html

bye bye.

[Keller]

which completely filled the mall, and spilled out into the streets like 20 blocks deep, packed like sardines.

Not accurate.

I'd estimate it filled about 75% of the mall. And 20 blocks? Get real. The only crowds in the streets were people waiting in security for the mall and/or waiting for the parade.

[Parkbandit]

You're bad at being a troll, it's kind of depressing. :(

Yea.. I don't quite have your knack for being a troll. Sorry about that.. I'm just interested in facts.


SERIOUSLY...when is the party made up of affluent white males going to get a fair shake in this country?

So.. go ahead and let's pretend you actually had a point with this post.. feel free to explain it.



Bolded the part that is subjective that you don't seem to think is.

Around 2 million showed up for the inauguration...which completely filled the mall, and spilled out into the streets like 20 blocks deep, packed like sardines.

the 9/12 rally did not even fill up the public access area of the mall, with people marching around and chilling in lawn chairs.

http://pbump.net/912.html

bye bye.

Man.. you are awesome troll, even by troll standards. Tell your mommy that someone found something you are actually good at.

Do a google search on "9-12-09"+crowd Estimates and feel free to look there. Throw out the extremes and you'll end up with a crowd around 100K. I'll even give you 60-70K, which is given by the DC Fire Department. Quite a far cry from the 20K being touted around here by our liberal experts in the field.

Regardless of the exact number, there are millions of people that sat at home on Saturday that agreed with what the people in Washington were protesting about. Marginalize them.. we'll see you in 2010.

http://media.cnsnews.com/resources/54052.jpg

[Seizer]

No I'm not missing the point.
You are missing the point its staged hate. You wouldn't want any right wingers at your tree hugging fest making your group look crazier than it actually was, am I right?


It's called the first amendment. My issues are/were based within the confines of the constitution. What are your objections to ACORN? Oh right, a right wing media outlet gave a platform to a right wing nut case .... and out of an organization of a couple hundred thousand, were able to "sting" six people.
Your argument is flawed read the first amendment. Teaching creationism is not establishing a religion. Its showing one the other side of the argument. Which I forgot liberals love to hear as long as its something they agree with. To save you time from looking it up here is a picture of it on a building I took at the protest.
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa256/seizer524/IMG_0575.jpg

So able to snag six corrupt individuals isn't enough in an organization that has been under investigation for voter fraud among other things? It doesn't in the least bother you that they knew this would be a human trafficking, pedophile business? I mean come on if this is the worst case scenario with these two kids, what have they been doing? Advising others to tax cheat at the very least. Cheating taxes seems to be common place today so you may pishshaw it saying "Ahh everyone is doing it!" Like your parents used to say if all your friends jump off a bridge.......
Please try and cheat your taxes and let me know how that goes. Unless you are Charlie Rangel incognito or.....Geitner?


Your "one thing" is supposed to be indicative of a full fledged assault on the constitution?
So how many things would it take before you said hmm maybe the Constitution is under attack. Along with my freedoms. One instance isn't enough?


At this point ... I have to ask, do you live in a basement stocked with MREs and bottled water?
Naw not in a basement. I live off all three floors of my house but it is stocked for at least two weeks of living supplies. God forbid should the need arise. If you don't believe in preparing my doors are always open to others.

Lastly I have to ask are you even a US citizen?

Can you honestly tell me if you are a voting citizen of the United States that you don't feel the least bamboozled by what is going in Washington, or are you that ignorant of all the issues that are troubling our country at the moment?

[Seizer]

I apologize (sincerely) as I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

I know I said "talk" but I was referring to the shirts/signs people were carrying.

"I am the mob" was almost a brand I saw those t-shirts so often.

Not sure how you didn't see those.

Honestly I didn't see any. There were some signs I saw that I think went a little too far. Just my opinion.

I think the mob thing is being sarcastic towards whichever politician, perhaps Pelosi, who said the people showing up at town halls were acting like a mob? Satire in politics. Though I cannot read the minds of others that would wear these things, I would like to think that they and I are on the same wavelength, and from my standpoint it would be sarcasm. I wouldn't advocate thug tactics, laundering of monies etc...

[Donquix]

Not accurate.

I'd estimate it filled about 75% of the mall. And 20 blocks? Get real. The only crowds in the streets were people waiting in security for the mall and/or waiting for the parade.

The actual number was 17th street. No estimation required (i rounded up slightly in the last post)

edit: Admittedly it wasn't quite so densely packed after the mall. Occupancy for the mall proper is ~950k, with official estimates in the 1.6-2m range.

[Donquix]

Yea.. I don't quite have your knack for being a troll. Sorry about that.. I'm just interested in facts.



So.. go ahead and let's pretend you actually had a point with this post.. feel free to explain it.



Man.. you are awesome troll, even by troll standards. Tell your mommy that someone found something you are actually good at.

Do a google search on "9-12-09"+crowd Estimates and feel free to look there. Throw out the extremes and you'll end up with a crowd around 100K. I'll even give you 60-70K, which is given by the DC Fire Department. Quite a far cry from the 20K being touted around here by our liberal experts in the field.

Regardless of the exact number, there are millions of people that sat at home on Saturday that agreed with what the people in Washington were protesting about. Marginalize them.. we'll see you in 2010.

http://media.cnsnews.com/resources/54052.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Not that it matters...i'm sure there are millions who agree with the ideals expressed at the rally.

I'm also quite sure there are millions who disagree with them. You act as these issues are new and not something that helped to garner the landslide victory all of what...10 months ago... in the first place...

I know it's weird. People disagree with you. Bizarre.

[Mabus]

I know it's weird. People disagree with you. Bizarre.
I was talking with a friend from the far left today, and I told him I felt the anti-tax, anti-"big government", and anti-"whatever the hell this health bill is" crowds were doing themselves a disservice having the nuts be at the protest.

Every protest of more then a few hundred people is going to have some loons in the mix. It is inevitable. I know; I have thrown a few protests.

Even one we had (been several years ago now) over PCB-laden sand being used for a swimming beach (that was often used by children) attracted idiots and whackos.

No protest is immune, which also means (to get back to this thread) no large organization would be immune to having a few loose-screws within their numbers. The problem may lie in multiple illegal/unethical activities by the same organization. After a while they could even be dissolved (and people charged) if found to be "an ongoing criminal enterprise". This of course would be up to prosecutorial discretion, and it is highly doubtful any large organization that supports the party in power will even be investigated, let alone charged.

[Parkbandit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Not that it matters...i'm sure there are millions who agree with the ideals expressed at the rally.

I'm also quite sure there are millions who disagree with them. You act as these issues are new and not something that helped to garner the landslide victory all of what...10 months ago... in the first place...

I know it's weird. People disagree with you. Bizarre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

You didn't get it. You won't get it. You are an idiot.

But you already knew that, didn't you.

[Rocktar]

OK, since when is a margin of 7.3% a landslide victory?

You want to see a landslide, look at say:

Jackson over Clay: 16.8%
Theodore Roosevelt over Brooks Parker: 18.8%
Harding over Cox: 26.2%
Coolidge over Davis: 25.2%
Hoover over Smith: 17.4%
FDR over Hoover: 17.7%
FDR over Landon: 24.3%
Eisenhower over Stevenson in the second term: 15.4%
Johnson over Goldwater: 22.6%
Nixon over McGovern: 23.2%
Reagan over Mondale: 18.2%

Those are landslides, Obama's victory is pretty ho hum in the scale of things and certainly not a landslide. In fact, looking at the recorded popular vote, his victory is pretty lack luster and somewhat on the low side of things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_elections_by_po pular_vote_margin

[Keller]

The actual number was 17th street. No estimation required (i rounded up slightly in the last post)

edit: Admittedly it wasn't quite so densely packed after the mall. Occupancy for the mall proper is ~950k, with official estimates in the 1.6-2m range.

I LIVE at 7th and H.

It was not "packed like sardines," even to 7th street.

There were a fuckton more people in DC for the inauguration than for the "We are the Mob" protest this last weekend, but in no way was it packed 20, 17, or even 7 blocks deep from the mall.

[Tsa`ah]

You are missing the point its staged hate. You wouldn't want any right wingers at your tree hugging fest making your group look crazier than it actually was, am I right?

Again, you cited an article that you can't find as a source for ONE instance ... that's pretty suspect.

It's not staged hate guy ... I'm sorry but you're losing that argument.


Your argument is flawed read the first amendment. Teaching creationism is not establishing a religion. Its showing one the other side of the argument. Which I forgot liberals love to hear as long as its something they agree with. To save you time from looking it up here is a picture of it on a building I took at the protest.

No image needed, I'm very familiar with the words.

Creationism is an extension of religion by default. It's not a science or based in it, there are no facts .... there is an idea or belief lifted from the pages of genesis.

My opinion, on this, doesn't matter ... neither does yours, the internet, the churches or the whacko astroturf movements you subscribe to.

What opinion does matter when it comes to questions of the constitution? I'll give you a second or two to think about it.




Answer, SCOTUS. See Epperson v. Arkansas (on laws prohibiting evolution) and then Edwards v. Aguillard (on teaching creationism) and then for kicks read the first amendment .... again and again until it sinks in.

Hell for a recap and giggles, the NCfSE (http://ncseweb.org/taking-action/ten-major-court-cases-evolution-creationism) lists both SCOTUS decisions and eight other decisions handed down by both state and federal courts.


So able to snag six corrupt individuals isn't enough in an organization that has been under investigation for voter fraud among other things? It doesn't in the least bother you that they knew this would be a human trafficking, pedophile business? I mean come on if this is the worst case scenario with these two kids, what have they been doing? Advising others to tax cheat at the very least. Cheating taxes seems to be common place today so you may pishshaw it saying "Ahh everyone is doing it!" Like your parents used to say if all your friends jump off a bridge.......

First you neglect to mention, as so many often do, that ACORN is required (by law) to turn in every registration. You also neglect to mention that they also turn in blatantly and suspected fraudulent registrations to the DA of the respective state ... along with the people responsible for them.

Second, while I find what these people did appalling, I'm not willing to toss the entire organization in with them. ACORN does need to screen their employees and volunteers better ... and it's apparent they need to issue some memos that most organizations should have to issue.

I'm not flushing ACORN for the same reason I'm not flushing the Red Cross, the United Way, Salvation Army ... or a host of other charities and community groups that have been host to illegal activities be it at the top or anywhere in between on the way to the bottom.


Please try and cheat your taxes and let me know how that goes. Unless you are Charlie Rangel incognito or.....Geitner?

Geitner never should have been nominated and Rangel is a congressman. He's unable to serve the administration unless he resigns.

So you have two people, one who was a shot in the dark and has nothing to do with Obama outside of political affiliation and the other that apparently "surrounds" Obama.


So how many things would it take before you said hmm maybe the Constitution is under attack. Along with my freedoms. One instance isn't enough?

It helps if you actually list one ... you have to get the ball rolling. Of course there has to be a ball to roll.


Lastly I have to ask are you even a US citizen?

Ft Camp Lejeune 1973 ... you tell me.


Can you honestly tell me if you are a voting citizen of the United States that you don't feel the least bamboozled by what is going in Washington, or are you that ignorant of all the issues that are troubling our country at the moment?

Quite the opposite, I understand that Obama represents one third of the government ... and I understand the basics of reading and comprehending what I read.

Even more, I can spot empty bullshit rhetoric within two syllables of it's utterance ... or within two words of it's printing. After all ... it's all you have spewed.

[AnticorRifling]

Ft Camp Lejeune 1973 ... you tell me.



What is that Ft in front of Camp Lejeune?

[Tsa`ah]

Because I was born at Ft Lejeune ... it's now Camp Lejeune. Anyone (and that's almost everyone) that sees the "Ft" likes to question me. Placing both there, I thought, would eliminate a stupid question.

[AnticorRifling]

Ahh see I never knew it was Ft Lejeune I always thought it started as Marine Barracks New River and then in the early 40s became Camp Lejeune. Sounds like some Ft Bragg/Camp Lejeune bastard child when you say it your way :)

[Jack]

You never knew it was Fort Lejeune because it never was... In May of 1941 Marine Barracks New River was established, and somewhere close to the end of 1942 it was renamed Camp Lejeune, after the 13th Commandant of the Marine Corps.

Fort denotes an army base, which Camp Lejeune never was, nor do I think the Army would name one of their bases after a Marine, even if he did hold a divisional command position in the Army during the first world war.

[Parkbandit]

You never knew it was Fort Lejeune because it never was... In May of 1941 Marine Barracks New River was established, and somewhere close to the end of 1942 it was renamed Camp Lejeune, after the 13th Commandant of the Marine Corps.

Fort denotes an army base, which Camp Lejeune never was, nor do I think the Army would name one of their bases after a Marine, even if he did hold a divisional command position in the Army during the first world war.

You obviously don't know what great depths Tsa'ah will go to prove he is right.. do you.

[Tsa`ah]

Well tell that to the Naval hospital that issued a birth certificate labeled Ft Lejeune ... and then typed it in.

[Jack]

I have no personal stake in the authenticity of your birth certificate, that's something you should probably take up with them though. Pretty much any Marine, or Former Marine knows the history of Camp Lejeune, and knows it is not now, nor was it ever a Fort.

[Latrinsorm]

OK, since when is a margin of 7.3% a landslide victory?Probably since the last two elections were decided by an average of 1%. As for your historical "comparisons", the United States of 1832 had less than a twentieth of the population of the United States of 2008, only allowed white men to vote, etc.

[Tsa`ah]

I have no personal stake in the authenticity of your birth certificate, that's something you should probably take up with them though. Pretty much any Marine, or Former Marine knows the history of Camp Lejeune, and knows it is not now, nor was it ever a Fort.

You'll have to inform a plethora of state governments who have used "Fort" in various documents, ... including those pertaining to state residents stationed at "Fort Lejeune", of course news agencies. You'll also have to take the issue up with several marines that have used "Fort Lejeune" on their facebook and myspace pages ... not to mention naval and army personnel.

I have no issue with my birth certificate.

[Jack]

It isn't a Fort now, it wasn't in the past, that's just a fact that you are going to have to accept. I tell you what, if you can find one mention of a Fort Lejeune in any published history of Camp Lejeune, I will whole heartedly apologize and admit you are right and I am wrong.

[Tsa`ah]

It isn't a Fort now, it wasn't in the past, that's just a fact that you are going to have to accept. I tell you what, if you can find one mention of a Fort Lejeune in any published history of Camp Lejeune, I will whole heartedly apologize and admit you are right and I am wrong.

I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that it's a common mistake ... made by offices and departments in the camp, by state governments, by marines (in addition to army and navy personnel), and the media.

I even shot my dad an e-mail ... he said Camp, never was Fort ... though he has all sorts of Marine letter head and documents (From the Army, Marines, and Navy) that say Fort.

[Keller]

I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that it's a common mistake ... made by offices and departments in the camp, by state governments, by marines (in addition to army and navy personnel), and the media.

I even shot my dad an e-mail ... he said Camp, never was Fort ... though he has all sorts of Marine letter head and documents (From the Army, Marines, and Navy) that say Fort.

Just say, "ya, I was wrong."

Jesus.

[Tsa`ah]

Just say, "ya, I was wrong."

Jesus.

Just shut the fuck up and troll someone else.

[4a6c1]

Tsa'ah's got birthers!!!

Awesomesauce.

[Parkbandit]

You obviously don't know what great depths Tsa'ah will go to prove he is right.. do you.


Because I was born at Ft Lejeune ... it's now Camp Lejeune. Anyone (and that's almost everyone) that sees the "Ft" likes to question me. Placing both there, I thought, would eliminate a stupid question.


You never knew it was Fort Lejeune because it never was... In May of 1941 Marine Barracks New River was established, and somewhere close to the end of 1942 it was renamed Camp Lejeune, after the 13th Commandant of the Marine Corps.

Fort denotes an army base, which Camp Lejeune never was, nor do I think the Army would name one of their bases after a Marine, even if he did hold a divisional command position in the Army during the first world war.


Well tell that to the Naval hospital that issued a birth certificate labeled Ft Lejeune ... and then typed it in.


You'll have to inform a plethora of state governments who have used "Fort" in various documents, ... including those pertaining to state residents stationed at "Fort Lejeune", of course news agencies. You'll also have to take the issue up with several marines that have used "Fort Lejeune" on their facebook and myspace pages ... not to mention naval and army personnel.

I have no issue with my birth certificate.


I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that it's a common mistake ... made by offices and departments in the camp, by state governments, by marines (in addition to army and navy personnel), and the media.

I even shot my dad an e-mail ... he said Camp, never was Fort ... though he has all sorts of Marine letter head and documents (From the Army, Marines, and Navy) that say Fort.


I do hope you've learned your lesson, Jack. Don't say I didn't warn you.. because I most certainly did.

[Keller]

Just shut the fuck up and troll someone else.

You would gain credibility if you admitted you were wrong when it is clear you were wrong.

Everyone else on this forum does it. Shit, I think even PB has admitted he was wrong at one time or another. Why can't you?

[Tsa`ah]

You would gain credibility if you admitted you were wrong when it is clear you were wrong.

Everyone else on this forum does it. Shit, I think even PB has admitted he was wrong at one time or another. Why can't you?

I've admitted being wrong plenty of times. Do you think trolling me is going to force me to admitt I was wrong about something. Maybe you should just stick to sniping it through rep comments.

[Methais]

I've admitted being wrong plenty of times. Do you think trolling me is going to force me to admitt I was wrong about something. Maybe you should just stick to sniping it through rep comments.

Can you tell me how many people are required at a protest before it's no longer considered "not that many" now?

Here's the link in case you, like Charles Gibson with the ACORN stories, have no idea what I'm talking about:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=998269&postcount=84

Maybe acknowledge Tim Geithner being a tax cheat too, since you were asking who Obama hired that were frauds and criminals, etc.

[Tsa`ah]

Can you tell me how many people are required at a protest before it's no longer considered "not that many" now?


Sure ... historically speaking (going back to the 60's to present) When you tip the 100k mark and consist of an actual protest ... you're big.

PAC led astroturf movements , as I've said, could be two million and I wouldn't call it more newsworthy than a McDonald's product launch .... especially when they're muddled with an ongoing event ... say a family reunion.


Maybe acknowledge Tim Geithner being a tax cheat too, since you were asking who Obama hired that were frauds and criminals, etc.

Are you incapable of reading?

But I'll go a step further, despite the two of you failing to produce examples of Obama surrounding himself with criminals ... and respond to your tripe about "communists".

We live in the United States where you are afforded many freedoms ... and one of those is political freedom. I could give a shit less if Obama appoints communists to advisory or cabinet positions ... they're not capable of changing an entire economic or political system. That aside, where are the commies?

[4a6c1]

Protesting ninja is protesting.

[Methais]

Sure ... historically speaking (going back to the 60's to present) When you tip the 100k mark and consist of an actual protest ... you're big.

That's funny. I don't recall there being 100k+ people protesting the Iraq war outside Bush's ranch, but that got plenty of coverage. Why is that?



Are you incapable of reading?

That's your response to Tim Geithner being a tax cheat? /facepalm


But I'll go a step further, despite the two of you failing to produce examples of Obama surrounding himself with criminals ... and respond to your tripe about "communists".

Last I heard, cheating on your taxes was a crime. Tim Geithner cheated on his taxes, and was able to get on board anyway. How do you justify that again? By asking if I'm incapable of reading?

Speaking of tax cheats, why is there no mainstream media attention being brought to Charlie Rangle or whatever his name is?


That aside, where are the commies?

http://home.swbell.net/designdv/vanjones.jpg

Yeah he's gone now, but he shouldn't have been there to begin with. But I guess Obama just had no idea at all what Van Jones was about at the time right?

[Tsa`ah]

That's funny. I don't recall there being 100k+ people protesting the Iraq war outside Bush's ranch, but that got plenty of coverage. Why is that?

Because it was an actual protest.


That's your response to Tim Geithner being a tax cheat? /facepalm

I already responded to it ... I'm not going to repeat myself and enable your add.


Last I heard, cheating on your taxes was a crime. Tim Geithner cheated on his taxes, and was able to get on board anyway. How do you justify that again? By asking if I'm incapable of reading?

I didn't justify it ... learn to fucking read.


Speaking of tax cheats, why is there no mainstream media attention being brought to Charlie Rangle or whatever his name is?

You're asking me? You believe I would somehow justify it? Fuck that, attempt what hasn't been attempted in over one hundred years and impeach his ass.

And ya ... learn to fucking read.


Yeah he's gone now, but he shouldn't have been there to begin with. But I guess Obama just had no idea at all what Van Jones was about at the time right?

There was absolutely no reason to get rid of Van Jones. He was a casualty of a smear campaign and a roomy bus undercarriage.

[Hulkein]

There was absolutely no reason to get rid of Van Jones.

You are being serious?

[Tsa`ah]

You are being serious?

Absolutely.

[Methais]

I already responded to it ... I'm not going to repeat myself and enable your add.

Ok then. Feel free to link me to the post where you explained it, since I apparently missed it.


I didn't justify it ... learn to fucking read.

Right. Instead you just basically denied it, asking "Where are the criminals?" as if you didn't know Geithner was a tax cheat, which is a crime.


There was absolutely no reason to get rid of Van Jones. He was a casualty of a smear campaign and a roomy bus undercarriage.

Pretty sure he was a casualty of his own words.

Or is it only a smear campaign when it benefits the right?

[Parkbandit]

You are being serious?

Are you serious, asking Tsa'ah that question?

[Methais]

Too much serious on this page for the owl to not show up.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m235/issilliuc/ruSerious.jpg

[Hulkein]

I could see if you said, "I don't think he should have resigned" because hey, no one is perfect. But to say there was "absolutely no reason" for him to resign? Towing the party line a little bit too much for my taste.

[Tsa`ah]

Ok then. Feel free to link me to the post where you explained it, since I apparently missed it.

If you can't click the numbered links in this thread ... you're hopeless.


Right. Instead you just basically denied it, asking "Where are the criminals?" as if you didn't know Geithner was a tax cheat, which is a crime.

In order for Geithner to be labeled a criminal, he would have to be convicted of a crime. He received extraordinary leniency from the IRS (due to his appointed position no doubt).

So I'm going to ask again ... where are the criminals. You cited someone you believed to be a criminal, granted one that doesn't fit the bill, but used the plural form of the word. So there has to be more than Geithner. Let's see your list of criminals in the Obama administration.


Pretty sure he was a casualty of his own words.

No, he was the casualty of Fox/Beck.


Or is it only a smear campaign when it benefits the right?

Can you list the number of people in the Bush administration that was released due to a liberal media outlet?

Smear campaigns happen on both sides ... that they would have a negative impact on an advisor is a crock of bullshit.

[Tsa`ah]

I could see if you said, "I don't think he should have resigned" because hey, no one is perfect. But to say there was "absolutely no reason" for him to resign? Towing the party line a little bit too much for my taste.

Why should he have resigned?

[Hulkein]

Because extremists shouldn't be responsible for giving out billions of government money.

[Tsa`ah]

Because extremists shouldn't be responsible for giving out billions of government money.

I'd hardly call Jones an extremist.

[Hulkein]

lol

[4a6c1]

?!

9/11 Truther....Communist..."I'm sorry about about.....blah blah blah"

[Parkbandit]

?!

9/11 Truther....Communist..."I'm sorry about about.....blah blah blah"

In before Latrine's "But just because he signed the document doesn't automatically mean he meant to sign that document!"

[Latrinsorm]

Since you bring it up, have you managed to find any other Van Jones quotes that support your claim in the ensuing weeks? My guess is you're sticking with your initial gut reaction, preponderance of evidence be damned.

[TheEschaton]

That's funny. I don't recall there being 100k+ people protesting the Iraq war outside Bush's ranch, but that got plenty of coverage. Why is that?

That's because the Iraq War protests numbered well above 100k+ in general, and into the 10s of millions around the world. 1 million alone in London protested the war, and probably around 500k in NYC.

Edit to add: And that was just on one day of simultaneous protest around the world, in February of 2003.

I'm not sure precisely what protest you're talking about outside of Bush's ranch, but if there was one that was reported on, and it was anti-war, I assume it's because the protests against the Iraq war were the largest since Vietnam and war is a pretty damn big story.

-TheE-

[4a6c1]

Numbers. Hmmm... I wonder what kind of numbers the Tea Parties are pulling in.

[Parkbandit]

Since you bring it up, have you managed to find any other Van Jones quotes that support your claim in the ensuing weeks? My guess is you're sticking with your initial gut reaction, preponderance of evidence be damned.

Quote for what exactly? That he didn't know what he signed.. which was your basis for your entire retard puke fest?

[Parkbandit]

That's because the Iraq War protests numbered well above 100k+ in general, and into the 10s of millions around the world. 1 million alone in London protested the war, and probably around 500k in NYC.

Edit to add: And that was just on one day of simultaneous protest around the world, in February of 2003.

I'm not sure precisely what protest you're talking about outside of Bush's ranch, but if there was one that was reported on, and it was anti-war, I assume it's because the protests against the Iraq war were the largest since Vietnam and war is a pretty damn big story.

-TheE-

You realize that the Iraq war was the only real war for the US since the Vietnam war, right? Gulf War was over less than 6 months.

[Parkbandit]

Numbers. Hmmm... I wonder what kind of numbers the Tea Parties are pulling in.

Does it really matter? An "overwhelming portion" of them are just racists anyway.

[TheEschaton]

Biggest protests for anything, then, since Vietnam. It's more of a time thing. I realize 40 years may seem like a drop in the bucket for you, but for most middle-aged and below people, the biggest protests in 40 years is a significant news story.

Not all of us stormed the beaches at Normandy where hundreds of thousands died.

[Parkbandit]

Biggest protests for anything, then, since Vietnam. It's more of a time thing. I realize 40 years may seem like a drop in the bucket for you, but for most middle-aged and below people, the biggest protests in 40 years is a significant news story.

Not all of us stormed the beaches at Normandy where hundreds of thousands died.

Hundreds of thousands of people didn't die at Normandy.

[Latrinsorm]

Quotes of him being a 9/11 Truther, the presence or absence of which would make his denials less or more plausible to a rational person.

He didn't know what he was "signing" because it was purposefully misrepresented to him, as is evidenced by the multiple other people who told the same story.

[Mabus]

Biggest protests for anything, then, since Vietnam.
269 cities worldwide for the Global Marijuana March 2009. Been doing these since 1999. Every year they get bigger. 179 cities have signed up for next years so far.

As to Washington DC protests the "Smoke In" held July 4th weekend every year (By John Pylka and others of the Fourth of July Hemp Committee) draws hundreds of thousands.

But legalization and decriminalization of a plant, which could keep millions from imprisonment, loss of property, loss of jobs and loss of life doesn't mean squat to most of "informed" society.

[Parkbandit]

Quotes of him being a 9/11 Truther, the presence or absence of which would make his denials less or more plausible to a rational person.

He didn't know what he was "signing" because it was purposefully misrepresented to him, as is evidenced by the multiple other people who told the same story.

Van Jones believes that white politicians purposely directed pollution into minority neighborhoods.. do you honestly believe that someone with this level of stupidity is somehow incapable of believing that white politicians had something to do with 9-11?

With 61% of Democrats thinking that Bush either had something to do with 9-11 or aren't sure.. I'm pretty sure the odds are against you.

[AnticorRifling]

You never knew it was Fort Lejeune because it never was... In May of 1941 Marine Barracks New River was established, and somewhere close to the end of 1942 it was renamed Camp Lejeune, after the 13th Commandant of the Marine Corps.

Fort denotes an army base, which Camp Lejeune never was, nor do I think the Army would name one of their bases after a Marine, even if he did hold a divisional command position in the Army during the first world war.
I know, I was being nice.

[Jack]

I know, I was being nice.

Nice? You've got to knock that off.

[Methais]

In order for Geithner to be labeled a criminal, he would have to be convicted of a crime.

Wrong.

Let's consult the dictionary:

criminal:
–noun
6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime.

In case you still need it spelled out....just because you're not convicted of a crime doesn't mean you're not guilty of it.

[AnticorRifling]

That depends on your definition of the word "or" racist.

[Gan]

Why should he have resigned?

Because he carried too much baggage that would prove to be a huge distraction to the administration and to any effort he tried to lead. Thats the reality of it in today's political and media environment.

If he were made to fill out that multi-page vetting questionaire that Obama made everyone else fill out pre-election then there's no doubt he would have not been appointed as a 'czar'. Advisory capacity sure, someone behind the scenes, you bet, but not the figurehead.

[Tsa`ah]

269 cities worldwide for the Global Marijuana March 2009. Been doing these since 1999. Every year they get bigger. 179 cities have signed up for next years so far.

We're talking about DC protests, not cumulative numbers of protesters scattered around the globe.


As to Washington DC protests the "Smoke In" held July 4th weekend every year (By John Pylka and others of the Fourth of July Hemp Committee) draws hundreds of thousands.

I've seen no evidence of this, not saying it's untrue, but no posted numbers on attendance and images don't really support the claim.


But legalization and decriminalization of a plant, which could keep millions from imprisonment, loss of property, loss of jobs and loss of life doesn't mean squat to most of "informed" society.

I think you'll find the general attitude of this forum and almost any informed citizen to be that "pot laws" are retarded.

That aside, your "smoke in" protests really fall short of the large DC protest mark. Over 400,000 religious nut jobs in 2000 calling for "God" to be part of the government.

2002's first anti-war protest was over 100k, 2003 100-200k, and five more protest following that with attendance ranging from under 100k to over 300k.

Pro-choice march in 2004 was over a million.

Prior to 2000

Million man march - about half a million
93 G/L/B equal rights - 300-400k
Anti-drug/violence march - 150k
87 G/L equal rights - half million
81 Solidarity march - quarter million
79 G/L equal rights - 100-200k

Those are "roughly" the largest post-Viet Nam/Equal rights protests ... though some outnumber even those.

[Tsa`ah]

Because he carried too much baggage that would prove to be a huge distraction to the administration and to any effort he tried to lead. Thats the reality of it in today's political and media environment.

If he were made to fill out that multi-page vetting questionaire that Obama made everyone else fill out pre-election then there's no doubt he would have not been appointed as a 'czar'. Advisory capacity sure, someone behind the scenes, you bet, but not the figurehead.

There have been people as controversial, if not more, in similar advisory positions in the past.

The greatest criticisms of Jones were his past political beliefs (in a nation built upon political freedom it's pretty absurd), a signature on a petition that wasn't presented honestly, and statements based on race ... that anyone living in those conditions can see evidence of.


Wrong.

Let's consult the dictionary:

criminal:
–noun
6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime.

In case you still need it spelled out....just because you're not convicted of a crime doesn't mean you're not guilty of it.

Consulting the dictionary doesn't a case make. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. Thus, you're not a criminal until a conviction defines you as such.

Has the man been convicted of a crime? More specifically has he been convicted of a felony?

[Hulkein]

a signature on a petition that wasn't presented honestly, and statements based on race

I highly doubt you would be so understanding if the petition was for something that the right fringe align with and Van Jones was a right leaning guy appointed by a Republican president.

[Tsa`ah]

I highly doubt you would be so understanding if the petition was for something that the right fringe align with and Van Jones was a right leaning guy appointed by a Republican president.

Do you believe that? Where were my objections to Bush appointees? There were none.

I didn't voice my objections to Dr. Hager, Nancy Pfotenhauer (and if there ever was a scandal ... that was it), Thomas Dorr, and Tommy Thompson to name a few. These were clearly people that shouldn't have been put or nominated to their positions.

Here's what you just don't get, or accept ... the right didn't win the election. They lost it.

That Obama caved to Fox outrage is sad.

[Parkbandit]

Do you believe that? Where were my objections to Bush appointees? There were none.

I didn't voice my objections to Dr. Hager, Nancy Pfotenhauer (and if there ever was a scandal ... that was it), Thomas Dorr, and Tommy Thompson to name a few. These were clearly people that shouldn't have been put or nominated to their positions.

Here's what you just don't get, or accept ... the right didn't win the election. They lost it.

That Obama caved to Fox outrage is sad.[/QUOTE]

What are your reasons why those individuals you stated should not have been appointed? To be honest, I've never heard of them.. and if their backrounds were as horrible as you claim, I'm certain the I HATE BUSH media would have made them all famous.

And what does the election have to do with a person being appointed a Czar who shouldn't have been have to do with this discussion? I understand that is a liberal talking point.. but I think you used it in the wrong context.

Maybe you should stick to accusing white Republicans as being racists.

[Tsa`ah]

What are your reasons why those individuals you stated should not have been appointed? To be honest, I've never heard of them.. and if their backrounds were as horrible as you claim, I'm certain the I HATE BUSH media would have made them all famous.

Dr David Hager - Advisory Committee for Reproductive Health Drugs (FDA)
Aside from his ex-wife's allegations of rape/sodomy, the guy is a religious nut that refused, and advocated not, prescribing contraception to unmarried women. The leading force behind abstinence only sex education. He wrote two books that attempted to blend women's health with religion. In one he suggested that "women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying." He also asserted that modern birth control pills are nothing more than an abortion inducing agent. In a nutshell, this "doctor" let religion get in the way of medicine and more specifically reproductive health at every turn.

Nancy Pfotenhauer - National Advisory Committee on Violence Against Women
She was the primary lobbyist for Koch Industries, among other things. Koch was had just under 100 federal indictment for illegal toxic dumping (specifically benzine). The corporation donated 800 grand to Bush's 2000 campaign ... Bush appointed Pfotenhauer, the Bush USDJ dropped all but 15 indictments and Koch settled for pennies on the dollar of the original fine of almost 400 million.

Thomas Dorr - Department of Agriculture Under Secretary of Agriculture for Rural Development
Just to scratch the surface, this guy defrauded the dept of Ag for years for several hundred grand in farm subsidies. He was fined/ordered to repay a fraction of his subsidies attained via fraud. I won't even delve into the racism this guy has spouted.

Tommy Thompson - Secretary of Health and Human Services
Read his title again and ask yourself ... why is a who has received tons of cash (circumspectly) from Phillip Morris, a guy who was an advisor to the WLF placed in charge of Health and Human Services?


And what does the election have to do with a person being appointed a Czar who shouldn't have been have to do with this discussion? I understand that is a liberal talking point.. but I think you used it in the wrong context. .

See my above examples. You lost ... when you lose you pretty much have to suck it up cupcake. Jones wasn't nearly as controversial as half of the Bush administration through the last eight years.


Maybe you should stick to accusing white Republicans as being racists.

I generally just accuse racists of being racists ... I don't give a rat's ass what their political affiliation is, nor what color their skin happens to be.

[Methais]

Here's what you just don't get, or accept ... the right didn't win the election. They lost it.

Oh, that makes it all ok then. Excuse us while we lie down and let the left run rampant, shitting all over our Constitution and freedom. I mean who are we to speak up about our concerns? We're just Americans.

[Tsa`ah]

Oh, that makes it all ok then. Excuse us while we lie down and let the left run rampant, shitting all over our Constitution and freedom. I mean who are we to speak up about our concerns? We're just Americans.

Please do list the "shitting" instances that involve your freedom and our Constitution.

The point, that you missed, is that Jones wasn't as controversial as he was made out to be ... not nearly as controversial as a number of Bush appointees and advisors. How many people were "released" from advisory rolls in that administration due to controversy?

Do you see the point yet?

[Methais]

There have been people as controversial, if not more, in similar advisory positions in the past.

The greatest criticisms of Jones were his past political beliefs (in a nation built upon political freedom it's pretty absurd), a signature on a petition that wasn't presented honestly, and statements based on race ... that anyone living in those conditions can see evidence of.



Consulting the dictionary doesn't a case make. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. Thus, you're not a criminal until a conviction defines you as such.

Has the man been convicted of a crime? More specifically has he been convicted of a felony?

Yeah, I mean who cares what the dictionary says the definition of a word is. It doesn't support your argument, therefore it's irrelevant. Right?

Are you saying OJ is innocent of murder? Just because a court didn't convict him doesn't mean he didn't do it.

I stole a candy bar from a convenience store once when I was a kid. Just because I didn't get caught doesn't mean I didn't commit a crime.

In case you still don't get it: IF YOU COMMIT A CRIME, YOU'RE STILL A CRIMINAL EVEN IF YOU DON'T GET CAUGHT.

Feel free to prove otherwise.

[Tsa`ah]

Yeah, I mean who cares what the dictionary says the definition of a word is. It doesn't support your argument, therefore it's irrelevant. Right?

You're ignoring the law and stretching for a definition that fits your argument. It doesn't work. One isn't a criminal in this country until they have been convicted of a crime.


Are you saying OJ is innocent of murder? Just because a court didn't convict him doesn't mean he didn't do it.

No, he lost the civil case ... but by definition he's not a criminal guilty of murder. Though he is a criminal for other reasons.


I stole a candy bar from a convenience store once when I was a kid. Just because I didn't get caught doesn't mean I didn't commit a crime.

By admission you're a criminal. Admitting that you committed petty theft classifies you as a criminal by self incrimination. Had you not said a word, or if you were charged with it and won the case ... you would not be a criminal.


In case you still don't get it: IF YOU COMMIT A CRIME, YOU'RE STILL A CRIMINAL EVEN IF YOU DON'T GET CAUGHT.

Not in the US.


Feel free to prove otherwise.

Actually, the onus is on you. You're making the claim ... the burden of proof lies with you.

Now how about those lists? Criminals and shitting events pertaining to your freedoms and our Constitution? Or are you going to play grab ass and stretching for straw all day?

[Methais]

Way to contradict yourself.


One isn't a criminal in this country until they have been convicted of a crime.


By admission you're a criminal. Admitting that you committed petty theft classifies you as a criminal by self incrimination. Had you not said a word, or if you were charged with it and won the case ... you would not be a criminal.

I was never convicted of stealing a candy bar, which according to the first quote, conviction is the only way you can become a criminal.

So which is it? Keep arguing with the dictionary btw, it makes you look real smart.


Or are you going to play grab ass and stretching for straw all day?

http://partlytruthpartlyfiction.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/pot-calling-the-kettle-black-734818.jpg

[Keller]

shitting all over our Constitution and freedom.

??

Was freedom from a public option somewhere in the bill of rights and I missed it?

[Tsa`ah]

Way to contradict yourself.





I was never convicted of stealing a candy bar, which according to the first quote, conviction is the only way you can become a criminal.

So which is it? Keep arguing with the dictionary btw, it makes you look real smart.



http://partlytruthpartlyfiction.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/pot-calling-the-kettle-black-734818.jpg

While watching you run around in circles is certainly entertaining ... I can't be party to your continued stupidity.

Get back to me when you have those lists.

[Rocktar]

Probably since the last two elections were decided by an average of 1%. As for your historical "comparisons", the United States of 1832 had less than a twentieth of the population of the United States of 2008, only allowed white men to vote, etc.

That is why I posted percentages, DUH. Percentage of total vote, an apples to apples comparison, not the crap that Tsa'ah, theE and Daniel like to fling about. Numbers don't mean jack over shit unless placed into context. You could have billions of germs on your left nut, don't mean shit because you have trillions upon trillions on the rest of your body.

It doesn't matter who was and was not allowed to vote, the elections stand and the percentages don't lie. Obama won by what would traditionally be called a modest margin and certainly nothing to get excited about or call a landslide.

[Parkbandit]

That is why I posted percentages, DUH. Percentage of total vote, an apples to apples comparison, not the crap that Tsa'ah, theE and Daniel like to fling about. Numbers don't mean jack over shit unless placed into context. You could have billions of germs on your left nut, don't mean shit because you have trillions upon trillions on the rest of your body.

It doesn't matter who was and was not allowed to vote, the elections stand and the percentages don't lie. Obama won by what would traditionally be called a modest margin and certainly nothing to get excited about or call a landslide.

Holy shit.. Latrine just got fucking owned by Rocktar. Hard.

PLUS, Rocktar spelled everything correctly and his post didn't have 3 hundred commas.

[Atlanteax]

http://cagle.com/working/090914/wells.jpg

[4a6c1]

:lol2:

[TheEschaton]

When 50% (women) and 15% (minorities) are simply not allowed to vote, and these are the people who would traditionally break 85/15% for liberals, those "landslides" would have been a lot closer. You cannot say it is irrelevant that only allowing white males to vote somehow does not skew an election.

Anyways, it's besides the point. Although I am amused at you thinking I offer apples vs. oranges comparisons. I know what I'm talking about, and I guarantee I'm smarter than you. Maybe you simply intentionally don't want to engage our comparisons because it would mean you lose. Any rational argument, any reasonable explanation, and you lose. Of course, I couldn't expect either raitonality or reasonableness from you, because you're dumber than a pile of rocks regurgitated by a wild bird that used them for grinding up food in their gizzard.


-TheE-

[Methais]

While watching you run around in circles is certainly entertaining ... I can't be party to your continued stupidity.

Get back to me when you have those lists.

Get back to me when you can comprehend simple definitions of words and not try to twist them to suit your weak argument while contradicting yourself all in one post.

If someone commits a crime, they're a criminal whether they get caught/convicted or not. If Timothy McVeigh were never caught for the OK city bombings, he wouldn't be a criminal by your logic. I know you'll never be able to grasp that concept, even though Warclaidhm would be able to understand it pretty easily. If it suited your argument, I'm sure you'd be able to understand it though.


Was freedom from a public option somewhere in the bill of rights and I missed it?

If you force people to buy health insurance, as Obama is wanting to do, then you take away peoples' choice, and thus taking away some of their freedom. In this case, Obama wants to take away peoples' right to not buy health insurance if they don't want to.

Key word in that paragraph being FORCE.

[TheEschaton]

Your freedom of choice isn't an absolute right. It is curtailed all the time. I'm not allowed to murder you, even if I really, really, really wanted to (I don't).

-TheE-

[Methais]

Your freedom of choice isn't an absolute right. It is curtailed all the time. I'm not allowed to murder you, even if I really, really, really wanted to (I don't).

-TheE-

I was gonna add in a bit stating the obvious exceptions, but I really didn't think it would be necessary.

I should have known better though.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/obamapalm.jpg

[TheEschaton]

Then let me elaborate. Freedom of choice is curtailed specifically when the greater good of society demands it. I may not be allowed to murder you, I'm also not allowed to speed, I'm not allowed to litter in the park, I'm not allowed to blast my music at ear-shattering decibels at 3 in the morning.

Being uninsured is a greater risk to society than any of those things, and I see no problem in saying you have no choice about having health insurance, especially when we say, 1) it's not going to cost you as much as regular insurance, and 2) IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD.

Seriously, did you have a civics class ever in your life? The Social Contract, the ties that bind, any of this ring a bell? Or is all they teach in the South these days, "Don't tread on me"? Guess what, that side lost.

[Methais]

I may not be allowed to murder you, I'm also not allowed to speed, I'm not allowed to litter in the park, I'm not allowed to blast my music at ear-shattering decibels at 3 in the morning.

According to Tsa'ah, as long as you get away with it, it's not a crime.


Or is all they teach in the South these days, "Don't tread on me"? Guess what, that side lost.

I'm from MA actually, which is where I went to school. I don't have a drop of southern blood in me and couldn't give a flying fuck about anything Confederate. Nice try though. GG making yourself look like a toolbag.


1) it's not going to cost you as much as regular insurance

Just like how the bill wouldn't cover illegals at the time of Obama's speech last week, despite there being nothing in the bill at the time stating so right? Just like how unemployment wouldn't go above 8.5% if we passed the "stimulus" bill right? etc.


2) IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD.

Awesome. The liberal slogan for why they should run your life for you.

[Parkbandit]

When 50% (women) and 15% (minorities) are simply not allowed to vote, and these are the people who would traditionally break 85/15% for liberals, those "landslides" would have been a lot closer. You cannot say it is irrelevant that only allowing white males to vote somehow does not skew an election.

I read this part of your post about 5 times.. and I still don't get it. Are you saying that half the women in America are not allowed to vote? Where is this coming from?

I like to keep my bitches on a short leash, but I find that hard to believe. I'm sure Stretch would also be excited to hear of such a fantasty land.

[Parkbandit]

Then let me elaborate. Freedom of choice is curtailed specifically when the greater good of society demands it. I may not be allowed to murder you, I'm also not allowed to speed, I'm not allowed to litter in the park, I'm not allowed to blast my music at ear-shattering decibels at 3 in the morning.

Being uninsured is a greater risk to society than any of those things, and I see no problem in saying you have no choice about having health insurance, especially when we say, 1) it's not going to cost you as much as regular insurance, and 2) IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD.

Seriously, did you have a civics class ever in your life? The Social Contract, the ties that bind, any of this ring a bell? Or is all they teach in the South these days, "Don't tread on me"? Guess what, that side lost.

I think Methais pretty much covered this.. but I just wanted to add.. who the fuck are you to tell me what is for my own good?

Remember Prohibition? Yea, that was back when the Progressives thought it was for our own good.. that turned out spectacularly, didn't it?

[Rocktar]

Although I am amused at you thinking I offer apples vs. oranges comparisons.

Those are the only ones that you can use to make your points because in the end, you spout crap that has less support than Rosie O'Donnell's tits in a wife beater. Obfuscation is your normal modus operandi so don't whine when called on it.


I know what I'm talking about, and I guarantee I'm smarter than you.

ROFLMFAO!!

Wrong on both counts. Usually you have your head up your ass spouting some hyper Socialist crap while calling it moderate OR You latch onto the smallest items of minutiae that you can somewhat argue a point on. Either way, you loose the big picture and are so far Left that you make Leftists go "Dude, WTF?"

Oh, and unless your IQ puts you in the 99.997% ranking, the second part there is simply laughable. I may have poor typing skills and use somewhat archaic sentence structure that is hard for you Liberal Arts majors to understand, but I do have the raw computational power to stomp you into paste.



Maybe you simply intentionally don't want to engage our comparisons because it would mean you lose. Any rational argument, any reasonable explanation, and you lose.

You speaking about rationality or reasonableness is laughable. Stop, my sides hurt. Really, you and Tsa'ah over the past 2 days have given me more joy in laughter than watching Robin Williams HBO special where he does the routine about what if men marked things like animals.

[Latrinsorm]

Van Jones believes that white politicians purposely directed pollution into minority neighborhoods.. do you honestly believe that someone with this level of stupidity is somehow incapable of believing that white politicians had something to do with 9-11?I did not say that he was "incapable" of being a 9-11 Truther, merely that there is no credible evidence that he is. Your continued reliance on his pollution quote is further demonstration of this - if there was a relevant quote anywhere, surely you would have referred to it by now.
Are you saying that half the women in America are not allowed to vote?He's saying that half the people in America are/were women.

I know that no one can honestly believe population size and homogeneity are irrelevant to election results, so I'm willing to chalk this up to intentional blindness.
I was gonna add in a bit stating the obvious exceptions, but I really didn't think it would be necessary.Perhaps an "obvious" exception is not universally viewed as such.

[Atlanteax]

Seriously, did you have a civics class ever in your life? The Social Contract, the ties that bind, any of this ring a bell?

If we really did follow a Social Contract ... whenever an illegal or a drug dealer or a rapist or a home-burglar or a (litigation) lawyer is suffering from a gun-shot wound, and are brought to the local hospital...

... wouldn't it be in the best interest of Society if we allow hospitals to refuse to treat them (hospital is free to treat if they cough up the $$$) ... even if they will die otherwise?

I'm reasonably certain that the local neighborhood watch would be "ooooh, that's a shame" (tongue-in-cheek, obviously) when they hear that the local registered sex offender died from a mortal wound suffered when John Doe shot him after he tried to crawl into JD's 13-yr daughter bedroom window.

Of course, it's possible that our separate interpretations of the "Social Contract" differs.

But then again, "I know what I'm talking about, and I guarantee I'm smarter than you." =D

[Rocktar]

??

Was freedom from a public option somewhere in the bill of rights and I missed it?

Based on the legal definitions of slavery, involuntary servitude and the framework of the bill, I do think a good case could be made to have it declared unconstitutional under the 13th amendment. It requires that you labor for the benefit of another (work to pay for those that can't afford to pay) under some form of coercion (we will arrest you and take your money if you don't). I don't think that you would be able to make it stand up in court as the SCOTUS has upheld the idea of "duties owed to the state" under Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 328.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=240&invol=328

It is, however, the basis that several sheriffs contested the Brady Law and a final court decision has not or was not reached in those cases as far as I know. So, the door may still be open to contest such onerous, earmarked, entitlement taxes on grounds that it constitutes slavery under the 13th amendment and thus is unconstitutional.

[Latrinsorm]

who the fuck are you to tell me what is for my own good?The same people who provide you military defense, infrastructure, civil law and order, etc. It's a social contract, not a social "here's some free stuff for no reason"...-tract.
Remember Prohibition? Yea, that was back when the Progressives thought it was for our own good.. that turned out spectacularly, didn't it?Ok, so that's certainly a loss for Government Intervention vs. Private Citizens. Let's see what else is on the scorecard:

Abolishing segregation, at times at the end of a gun - win.
Rationing in times of war, allowing us to beat the Nazis - win.
Red scare - loss (although Rocktar might consider it a win... let's call it a tie to be fair).
Pollution restrictions: I can't remember the last time a major river caught fire - win.
Employment restrictions, child labor and OSHA stuff - win.

Can you think of any other big ones? Right now Government is 4-1-1, it's looking pretty tough for your position.

[Parkbandit]

I did not say that he was "incapable" of being a 9-11 Truther, merely that there is no credible evidence that he is. Your continued reliance on his pollution quote is further demonstration of this - if there was a relevant quote anywhere, surely you would have referred to it by now.


Evidence Van Jones is a truther: He signed the document. He was on the organizing committee for San Francisco March To Demand Congressional Inquiry Of 911. He's a nutcase.

Evidence Van Jones is not a truther: A couple other people said they didn't sign it.

Please stop.. you are embarrassing yourself.

[Xanator]

Or is all they teach in the South these days, "Don't tread on me"? Guess what, that side lost.

This is as ignorant and off-base as any other comment in this thread. What is this supposed to actually do to help prove your point? It amazes me that you can pretend to sit atop the highest horse and still wallow in every bit as much stupidity as those you excoriate.

[Keller]

Oh, and unless your IQ puts you in the 99.997% ranking, the second part there is simply laughable. I may have poor typing skills and use somewhat archaic sentence structure that is hard for you Liberal Arts majors to understand, but I do have the raw computational power to stomp you into paste.

PC Quote of the decade.

[Latrinsorm]

He signed the document.The document in question has at least three people on it who are not now and have never been 9/11 Truthers. In light of Mr. Jones' protests, this particular evidence is not credible standing on its own.
He was on the organizing committee for San Francisco March To Demand Congressional Inquiry Of 911.As was already discussed in the other thread, the march in question was in protest of the government's response to 9/11.

No one here is being embarrassed, which is a shame.

[Mabus]

The document in question has at least three people on it who are not now and have never been 9/11 Truthers. In light of Mr. Jones' protests, this particular evidence is not credible standing on its own.As was already discussed in the other thread, the march in question was in protest of the government's response to 9/11.

No one here is being embarrassed, which is a shame.
He admitted to signing the document.

[Parkbandit]

The document in question has at least three people on it who are not now and have never been 9/11 Truthers. In light of Mr. Jones' protests, this particular evidence is not credible standing on its own.As was already discussed in the other thread, the march in question was in protest of the government's response to 9/11.

No one here is being embarrassed, which is a shame.

Seriously, I'm done debating such a stupid thing with you. There are certain people that no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, still believe that we never landed on the moon.

I view you as one of those blissfully ignorant people. Enjoy your fantasy land.

[Jack]

Seriously, did you have a civics class ever in your life? The Social Contract, the ties that bind, any of this ring a bell? Or is all they teach in the South these days, "Don't tread on me"? Guess what, that side lost.

Apparently they don't teach History in the North then, because you seem to be ignorant of the fact that the side that used the flag stating "Don't Tread On Me" beneath a coiled timber snake, or the Gadsen Flag, did in fact win. Otherwise there would not be a United States. A similar flag was used by the US Navy. You are confusing the Revolutionary War and the American Civil War.

[TheEschaton]

Based on the legal definitions of slavery, involuntary servitude and the framework of the bill, I do think a good case could be made to have it declared unconstitutional under the 13th amendment. It requires that you labor for the benefit of another (work to pay for those that can't afford to pay) under some form of coercion (we will arrest you and take your money if you don't). I don't think that you would be able to make it stand up in court as the SCOTUS has upheld the idea of "duties owed to the state" under Butler v. Perry, 240 U.S. 328.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=240&invol=328

It is, however, the basis that several sheriffs contested the Brady Law and a final court decision has not or was not reached in those cases as far as I know. So, the door may still be open to contest such onerous, earmarked, entitlement taxes on grounds that it constitutes slavery under the 13th amendment and thus is unconstitutional.

You claim you're smarter than, what, 99.77% of the population, and then you spout idiotic bullshit like this. I don't believe you or your supposed intelligence for more than 1.24 seconds.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

Apparently they don't teach History in the North then, because you seem to be ignorant of the fact that the side that used the flag stating "Don't Tread On Me" beneath a coiled timber snake, or the Gadsen Flag, did in fact win. Otherwise there would not be a United States. A similar flag was used by the US Navy. You are confusing the Revolutionary War and the American Civil War.

Ah, I'm truly sorry if I'm wrong, then, it's just that I only see those bumper stickers in Texas when I go and visit my friend. And yes, I realize Texas is different than the "South" and somewhat irrelevant to the civil war point.

[Jack]

Ah, I'm truly sorry if I'm wrong, then, it's just that I only see those bumper stickers in Texas when I go and visit my friend. And yes, I realize Texas is different than the "South" and somewhat irrelevant to the civil war point.

When you attempt to stereotype the south, and the people who live there, you should at least know the historical facts behind your attempted stereotyping.

On February 1, 1861 Texas declared it's secession from the United States, with the Texas Ordenance of Succession. The State of Texas became a part of the Confederated States of America, so I do not see how Texas would be somewhat irrelevant to the "Civil War Point". General Hood's Texans fought with distincition through several battles during the American Civil War, but I'm in danger of derailing the entire thread with this so I'll cut the history lesson short.

[Latrinsorm]

He admitted to signing the document.Which I am (still) not arguing. What I am arguing is that in the case of this particular petition, being a signatory is not evidence of agreement.
Seriously, I'm done debating such a stupid thing with you. There are certain people that no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary, still believe that we never landed on the moon.

I view you as one of those blissfully ignorant people. Enjoy your fantasy land.Someday I hope you'll see the irony in this statement. I think you'll get a big kick out of it.

[Gan]

When you attempt to steriotype the south, and the people who live there, you should at least know the historical facts behind your attempted steriotyping.

On February 1, 1861 Texas declared it's secession from the United States, with the Texas Ordenance of Succession. The State of Texas became a part of the Confederated States of America, so I do not see how Texas would be somewhat irrelevant to the "Civil War Point". General Hood's Texans fought with distincition through several battles during the American Civil War, but I'm in danger of derailing the entire thread with this so I'll cut the history lesson short.

Great post.

[Gan]

There have been people as controversial, if not more, in similar advisory positions in the past.
Feel free to back that up.



The greatest criticisms of Jones were his past political beliefs (in a nation built upon political freedom it's pretty absurd), a signature on a petition that wasn't presented honestly, and statements based on race ... that anyone living in those conditions can see evidence of.

Bottom line, Van Jones was a bad idea to put on the front line. Thats the reality of it. And it appears to be a sentiment thats in agreement with more than just the wacko radical right. ;)

[Mabus]

Which I am (still) not arguing. What I am arguing is that in the case of this particular petition, being a signatory is not evidence of agreement.
So you do not mind that a person that would sign such a document would be in charge of $30,000,000,000 of taxpayer money?

[Xanator]

So you do not mind that a person that would sign such a document would be in charge of $30,000,000,000 of taxpayer money?

Come on, man. It's just 30 bil. Think about how much the war in Iraq cost!

[nub]

Come on, man. It's just 30 bil. Think about how much the war in Iraq cost!

I assume that was sarcasm (as in i hope you were just making a statement to just show how stupid it was for obama to say something similar)

Anyway, not sure if it has been said or not buttttt...

"House votes to deny all federal funds for ACORN"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_go_co/us_congress_acorn

[Gan]

DENIED.

Gotta hate that.

Maybe they can use those funds to help insure the uninsured...

[Parkbandit]

Someday I hope you'll see the irony in this statement. I think you'll get a big kick out of it.

There's no irony in the statement... and I think I'll get a bigger kick out of you getting hit by a bus.

[Latrinsorm]

So you do not mind that a person that would sign such a document would be in charge of $30,000,000,000 of taxpayer money?If I have reason to believe the signature is not indicative of the signor's beliefs, not in the slightest. Van Jones is a human being, and is therefore capable of being deceived.

[Rocktar]

You claim you're smarter than, what, 99.77% of the population, and then you spout idiotic bullshit like this. I don't believe you or your supposed intelligence for more than 1.24 seconds.

-TheE-

Not bullshit, it is fact, a lot of sheriffs sued the government over the Brady Law saying it was unconstitutional based on the idea that it required action/labor without recompense and provided a legal penalty for lack of compliance. This seems to be another case of the same legal framework. You can call bullshit all you want, it isn't like anyone but you cares all that much about your opinion. Join Tsa'ah, I believe, at the kool-aid stand, won't you? Oh, and it is 99.997%, thanks, kabai :)

[Mabus]

If I have reason to believe the signature is not indicative of the signor's beliefs, not in the slightest. Van Jones is a human being, and is therefore capable of being deceived.
If you sign a document (which Van Jones has admitted) you can be creating a legally binding agreement.

If you sign one "without reading or knowing its contents" (as is the current excuse), or "without believing in it" (paraphrasing your belief), you can still be held legally liable.

Someone in charge of $30 billion dollars of taxpayer monies should read documents before signing them.

[Keller]

Not bullshit, it is fact, a lot of sheriffs sued the government over the Brady Law saying it was unconstitutional based on the idea that it required action/labor without recompense and provided a legal penalty for lack of compliance. This seems to be another case of the same legal framework. You can call bullshit all you want, it isn't like anyone but you cares all that much about your opinion. Join Tsa'ah, I believe, at the kool-aid stand, won't you? Oh, and it is 99.997%, thanks, kabai :)

See Porth v. Brodrick, 214 F.2d 925 (10th Cir. 1954) and it's progeny.

Taxes are not covered by the 13th amendment. Period.

The fact that you believe that, in the face of overwhelming precedent, shows how truly (i) dumb and (ii) ignorant you are.

[4a6c1]

When you attempt to steriotype the south, and the people who live there, you should at least know the historical facts behind your attempted steriotyping.

On February 1, 1861 Texas declared it's secession from the United States, with the Texas Ordenance of Succession. The State of Texas became a part of the Confederated States of America, so I do not see how Texas would be somewhat irrelevant to the "Civil War Point". General Hood's Texans fought with distincition through several battles during the American Civil War, but I'm in danger of derailing the entire thread with this so I'll cut the history lesson short.

Awesomesauce (Southern-Style BBQ flavored)

I like it when smart people spell bad. It's like God made equalizers.

Like how all the chemical engineers I know write in some tiny crazy slanty language and then expect everyone else to be able to read it (DUDE. I KNOW YOU ARE GENIUS BUT NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THAT SAYZ!111)

[Latrinsorm]

If you sign a document (which Van Jones has admitted) you can be creating a legally binding agreement.

If you sign one "without reading or knowing its contents" (as is the current excuse), or "without believing in it" (paraphrasing your belief), you can still be held legally liable.Except that if you can demonstrate that the other party was being actively deceitful, that's fraud, and you get out of the contract. I don't know of any precedent otherwise except for Ariel v. Ursula, and that was overturned by the landmark I Stabbed You in the Heart with a Boat, Somehow ruling almost immediately.

[Mabus]

Except that if you can demonstrate that the other party was being actively deceitful, that's fraud, and you get out of the contract.
Then the burden is on you.

Prove the fraud.

Van Jones admitted he signed the petition. At no time has he stated he was mislead, just that he didn't read the petition.

The negligence, if any existed, was his.

[Latrinsorm]

Prove the fraud.Thank you, I will be quite happy to! First I would like to provide an interesting quote from the spokesman of the relevant 9/11 Truther group, Mr. Michael Berger:

"[We] spoke with each person on the list by phone or through email to individually confirm they have added their name to that list. ... No one’s name was put on that list without them knowing it." [1]

The discerning individual will note that Mr. Berger makes no connection between a name being put on the list and the person holding that name actually agreeing with anything in the petition.

.

Next, I have statements from three of the signatories to this petition (#27 Dr. Ehrenfeld, #57 Rabbi Lerner, and #100 Professor Zinn. Please note that I am using the numbering from the original petition, the copy most readily available on the 911truth.org website has been heavily and clumsily edited):

Dr. Ehrenfeld: "Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld is not a signatory of the 911Truth.org." [2]
Rabbi Lerner: "...my guess is that most of those who signed were, like me, unaware of the context in which our names would appear." [3]
Professor Zinn: "I did not sign a statement suggesting that 'Bush had prior knowledge.'" [3]

These quotes establish a pattern: Mr. Berger's organization contacts a person, this person willingly adds their name to a statement, and this person later finds that the statement was not what they thought it was. (This is especially interesting considering Mr. Berger's own words: he makes no claim that his organization offered a word-for-word copy or dictation of the statement, only that they spoke with the signatories {at a distance!} regarding their support.) I will concede that it is possible for these thoughts to have been nefariously placed in the signatory's minds by a mischievous god, gods, or God, or for them to have coincidentally sprung into existence ex nihilo. However, I will contend that a reasonable individual will discard these possibilities as implausible, and will instead observe that the only tangible commonality is conversations had with Mr. Berger's organization.

.

Finally, it is certainly true that Mr. Jones has not explicitly said he was deceived. He has also not explicitly said he is a carbon-based life-form of the planet Earth. Given that Mr. Jones is not directly present for this inquiry, I will contend that one may reasonably conclude that he is a carbon-based Earthling who was at one time deceived.

[1] http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/back-story/2009/sep/03/green-jobs-czar-signed-truther-statement-in-2004/
[2] http://www.public-integrity.org/team.php
[3] http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Trutherismlite_and_a_second_Jones_tie.html

[Mabus]

That does not prove fraud.

Though the exact definition can differ by locale and state, your statements do not constitute any legal definition of fraud of which I am aware. Fraud is a multi-part action, each part of which must be proved for it to be a crime.

But negligence on Van Jones part could be proved, as he "failed to act as an ordinarily prudent person would act under the given circumstances", by not requesting and reading a petition (according to Van Jones) upon which he agreed to put his name (again, according to Van Jones).

Van Jones admits his negligence.

[Rocktar]

See Porth v. Brodrick, 214 F.2d 925 (10th Cir. 1954) and it's progeny.

Taxes are not covered by the 13th amendment. Period.

The fact that you believe that, in the face of overwhelming precedent, shows how truly (i) dumb and (ii) ignorant you are.

The fact that no one has taken such a case to the SCOTUS leaves the matter unsettled. In addition, the case cited was dismissed because the complaint was not clear, concise and specific as to the damaged incurred. The court said so in it's comment on the case. See paragraph 3.

http://openjurist.org/214/f2d/925

And in fact, the only taxes that are allowed by the 16th amendment are direct income taxes by the Federal Government that supply a "fair, just and reasonable source of revenue to the United States Government through a simple and direct levy or tax upon the income of the people." (see above) It could be well argued and likely should be, that in the face of the proposed tax for supporting health care, the crap and trade tax, and all the other taxes accumulated on the individual, even those that are exempt from direct Federal Income tax, have far exceeded what would be considered "fair, just and reasonable" and therefore, would be unconstitutional. Currently, it is estimated that the average person pays something close to 50% of their income to taxes every year. This comes in all forms of income tax, sales, use and a myriad of other taxes that are hidden in the purchase of all things.

At a much lower tax rate, the colonies of Great Britain revolted and formed our country and at a somewhat similar tax rate, the peasants of Europe rose up and lopped the heads off of the aristocracy. The fact that you don't see this as problematic, even with your supposed legal education, is simply astounding. It is an amazingly simple equation and most normal people can understand it, though that is likely the root of your difficulties.

More taxes = less prosperity in all cases.

You continue to support an ideal somewhat right of theE and somewhere past left field out away from the sane, rational citizenry. Quite likely, this is the underlying reason you chose your field of endeavor. After all, irrational leftists have to eat as well.

[Gan]

"President Obama needs to indicate whether he'll sign this bill and join us in ending all taxpayer funds for this corrupt organization," House Republican leader John Boehner of Ohio said after the vote.

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs on Wednesday said the conduct seen on the tapes "is completely unacceptable." He said the Obama administration "takes accountability extremely seriously" and noted that the Census Bureau had determined that ACORN could not meet its goal for conducting a fair and accurate count next year.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, in a conference call with reporters, called the latest allegations against ACORN "horrible." However, she pointed out that ACORN has many honest employees and was conducting an internal investigation, and that it was up to House-Senate negotiators to determine whether the provision to cut funding would be in the final version of the bill.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_go_co/us_congress_acorn


So as it stands now, current funding is still on. Future funding is dependant on the language making it into the final Bill and getting Obama's signature.

[Keller]

Currently, it is estimated that the average person pays something close to 50% of their income to taxes every year. This comes in all forms of income tax, sales, use and a myriad of other taxes that are hidden in the purchase of all things.

Source please.

[CrystalTears]

Source please.
Seriously. That's a butt-pulled "fact" if I ever saw one.

[Methais]

Thank you, I will be quite happy to! First I would like to provide an interesting quote from the spokesman of the relevant 9/11 Truther group, Mr. Michael Berger:

"[We] spoke with each person on the list by phone or through email to individually confirm they have added their name to that list. ... No one’s name was put on that list without them knowing it." [1]

The discerning individual will note that Mr. Berger makes no connection between a name being put on the list and the person holding that name actually agreeing with anything in the petition.

.

Next, I have statements from three of the signatories to this petition (#27 Dr. Ehrenfeld, #57 Rabbi Lerner, and #100 Professor Zinn. Please note that I am using the numbering from the original petition, the copy most readily available on the 911truth.org website has been heavily and clumsily edited):

Dr. Ehrenfeld: "Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld is not a signatory of the 911Truth.org." [2]
Rabbi Lerner: "...my guess is that most of those who signed were, like me, unaware of the context in which our names would appear." [3]
Professor Zinn: "I did not sign a statement suggesting that 'Bush had prior knowledge.'" [3]

These quotes establish a pattern: Mr. Berger's organization contacts a person, this person willingly adds their name to a statement, and this person later finds that the statement was not what they thought it was. (This is especially interesting considering Mr. Berger's own words: he makes no claim that his organization offered a word-for-word copy or dictation of the statement, only that they spoke with the signatories {at a distance!} regarding their support.) I will concede that it is possible for these thoughts to have been nefariously placed in the signatory's minds by a mischievous god, gods, or God, or for them to have coincidentally sprung into existence ex nihilo. However, I will contend that a reasonable individual will discard these possibilities as implausible, and will instead observe that the only tangible commonality is conversations had with Mr. Berger's organization.

.

Finally, it is certainly true that Mr. Jones has not explicitly said he was deceived. He has also not explicitly said he is a carbon-based life-form of the planet Earth. Given that Mr. Jones is not directly present for this inquiry, I will contend that one may reasonably conclude that he is a carbon-based Earthling who was at one time deceived.

[1] http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/back-story/2009/sep/03/green-jobs-czar-signed-truther-statement-in-2004/
[2] http://www.public-integrity.org/team.php
[3] http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Trutherismlite_and_a_second_Jones_tie.html

Anyone who signs any document without reading it entirely shouldn't be in charge of billions of tax payer dollars. Or any tax dollars.

[Parkbandit]

Seriously. That's a butt-pulled "fact" if I ever saw one.

It's probably very close to 50%, if not more.

Think about it... add everything up. Payroll taxes, income taxes, sales tax, communication tax, gas tax, cig tax, alcohol tax, property tax, etc...

Since it is different in every state and for every person, it's probably pretty difficult to calculate.

Here's one of the first websites that I googled.. no where near as scientific as you would like I'm sure.. but it calculates the average is 54.4% in 2005.

http://www.nowandfutures.com/taxes.html

[Keller]

It's probably very close to 50%, if not more.

Think about it... add everything up. Payroll taxes, income taxes, sales tax, communication tax, gas tax, cig tax, alcohol tax, property tax, etc...

Since it is different in every state and for every person, it's probably pretty difficult to calculate.

Here's one of the first websites that I googled.. no where near as scientific as you would like I'm sure.. but it calculates the average is 54.4% in 2005.

http://www.nowandfutures.com/taxes.html


Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen, 2005 - 54.4%

http://virlib.brinkster.net/acy/ACYIMAGES_DVD/DVD_leap_frog_learn_to_read_at_the_storybook_facto ry.jpg

[Trouble]

It's possible it means the above example, not an above average example (above). In other words, the example is located above the statement.

[Nieninque]

Now this is an old video game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz8bljU9rWY

[Atlanteax]

http://cagle.com/working/090918/varvel.jpg

[TheEschaton]

Not bullshit, it is fact, a lot of sheriffs sued the government over the Brady Law saying it was unconstitutional based on the idea that it required action/labor without recompense and provided a legal penalty for lack of compliance. This seems to be another case of the same legal framework. You can call bullshit all you want, it isn't like anyone but you cares all that much about your opinion. Join Tsa'ah, I believe, at the kool-aid stand, won't you? Oh, and it is 99.997%, thanks, kabai :)

I'm sorry, let me clarify: Just because people have done it, doesn't make it an idea of any merit or intelligence, and any reasonably intelligent person should be able to see that.

[Parkbandit]

It's possible it means the above example, not an above average example (above). In other words, the example is located above the statement.

It is.. Keller just seems to be seeking my attention again this morning... even if it makes him look foolish.

[Keller]

Median household income is $50,233 cite (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/012528.html).

Assuming married and filing jointly with 2 children, standard deduction is $11,400. That means taxable income is only ~ $39,800.

Marginal rate on the first $8,350 is 10%. Marginal rate up to $33,950 is 15%. Marginal rate on the remainder is 25%.

So (8350 x .1) + ((33950-8350) x .15) + ((39,800-33950) x .25) = $6137.50 in taxes. Then you subtract $2,000 for the children. So $4,137.50 in taxes paid on $50,233 of income.

Or 8.2%. Roughly half of what this website shows.

So, in order to estimate 17% of your income goes to federal income taxes, the individual would need to be making more than the "average" person.

[Keller]

I'm sorry, let me clarify: Just because people have done it, doesn't make it an idea of any merit or intelligence, and any reasonably intelligent person should be able to see that.

What Rocktar does not understand is that we currently have penalties (both criminal and civil) for failure to pay taxes (such as a healthcare tax). All of the existing precedent from U.S. courts concludes that such taxes, and the corresponding penalties, are not a violation of the 13th amendment.

[CrystalTears]

It's probably very close to 50%, if not more.

Think about it... add everything up. Payroll taxes, income taxes, sales tax, communication tax, gas tax, cig tax, alcohol tax, property tax, etc...

Since it is different in every state and for every person, it's probably pretty difficult to calculate.

Here's one of the first websites that I googled.. no where near as scientific as you would like I'm sure.. but it calculates the average is 54.4% in 2005.

http://www.nowandfutures.com/taxes.htmlPerhaps. I've just seen information that's more towards a third of an average person's income to go towards taxes. And yes, since all states are different, some states will have you paying more, others paying less.

I just don't believe [or perhaps refuse to] that the amount is half of the average taxpayer's income.

Note 1: the total tax paid is closer to 46-48%, since the figures above do not distinguish between taxes on gross and net income. Note also that the Tax Foundation's numbers are closer to 34% for the actual "average" US citizen.

[TheEschaton]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the U.S. has one of the lowest tax rates amongst industrialized first world countries.

[Nieninque]

It's reasonable to say that some/alot of the opposition Obama experiences is likely to be rooted in racism.
It's unreasonable to say all opposition to Obama is racist.

[Tisket]

ClydeR = Liberi Fatali

[Parkbandit]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the U.S. has one of the lowest tax rates amongst industrialized first world countries.

Your team is trying to rectify that situation. Give them time...

Wait.. I thought 95% of Americans were supposed to get a tax CUT?

Oops.

[Latrinsorm]

Anyone who signs any document without reading it entirely shouldn't be in charge of billions of tax payer dollars. Or any tax dollars.Have you entirely read every EULA you've accepted? Do you think anyone has?
Though the exact definition can differ by locale and state, your statements do not constitute any legal definition of fraud of which I am aware. Fraud is a multi-part action, each part of which must be proved for it to be a crime.California (given that Mr. Jones was an Oakland resident at the time) Code section 1689.b.1:

"A party to a contract may rescind the contract in the following cases: if the consent of the party rescinding... was given by mistake, or obtained through... fraud."

And though not strictly relevant, section 1690:

"A stipulation that errors of description shall not avoid a contract, or shall be the subject of compensation, or both, does not take away the right of rescission for fraud, nor for mistake, where such mistake is in a matter essential to the inducement of the contract."

I believe we are operating under different definitions of "fraud". You seem to be referring to the specific crime of fraud, whereas I am referring to behavior that is deceitful. I contend that the relevant law operates under my definition rather than yours, but I welcome alternate interpretations.

[Tisket]

Sure, when people stop being idiots. ;)

Emoticons are powerful.

I FEEL SO POWERLESS WHEN CONFRONTED BY DISMISSIVE WINKING SMILEY.

[Methais]

Have you entirely read every EULA you've accepted? Do you think anyone has?

Because clicking ACCEPT on the EULA when I install a video game is exactly like signing a document saying Bush was behind 9/11. If I was going to sign a document having anything to do with 9/11 though, I'd be sure to read every word first.

I actually do usually read the contracts when I'm dealing with things like banks, cable companies, cell phone plans, etc. before I sign though, because they're shady assholes and can't be trusted.

I also don't plan on being in charge of taxpayer money or working for the government either.

Try again.

[Parkbandit]

Yet ANOTHER video regarding ACORN and their misunderstood attempts to help a budding capitalist get a brothel of underage latino girls up and running.

NATIONAL CITY, Calif. — ACORN officials in San Diego have fired an employee caught on video providing advice about human smuggling to a couple posing as a pimp and a prostitute.

David Lagstein, the group's head organizer in San Diego, initially said Thursday that he believed Juan Carlos Vera did his best to deal with a challenging situation and would not be disciplined. But three hours later, Lagstein reversed that decision.

He said he reevaluated the videos posted online in which Vera was secretly filmed answering questions about smuggling people into the U.S. through Tijuana. Lagstein said after further discussion with supervisors and state ACORN officials he decided Vera's conduct was "unacceptable."

Earlier Thursday the House followed the Senate's lead in denying all federal funding for the scandal-tainted community organizing group.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jXQqjQMdcBi4wB_jZfzUuOKNrpVQD9APFKE80

What's that.. 5 or 6? I've lost count. But hey.. they are just misunderstood.

[Methais]

LEAVE ACORN ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://assets.knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/16/medium/leave-britney-alone-02.jpg

[Keller]

If I was going to sign a document having anything to do with 9/11 though, I'd be sure to read every word first.


Hey Methais, I have this petition to declare 9-11 a national holiday -- would you please sign it?

[Methais]

Hey Methais, I have this petition to declare 9-11 a national holiday -- would you please sign it?

OMG SURE GIMME A PEN HURRY UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rocktar]

I'm sorry, let me clarify: Just because people have done it, doesn't make it an idea of any merit or intelligence, and any reasonably intelligent person should be able to see that.

But that is more than enough justification for idiots like you to want to saddle the US with Crap and Raid over global warming. It is more than enough justification for you to argue that because Europe does it, we should too, even though it is clearly a failure. The list goes on and on. You want to argue that because I use that argument it is invalid, where you use it all the time makes it valid for your purposes.

That Sir is called HYPOCRISY. You Sir are a hypocrite and it is about time that you take your far left wing bullshit and get a clue because you are no where near grounded in a reality that anyone else lives in.

You FAIL!
You LOOSE!
You get NOTHING!


Good day Sir.

[Methais]

You FAIL!
You LOOSE!
You get NOTHING!


Good day Sir.

You failed at quoting that reference in the proper order. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKLYEAC4F2U

[Rocktar]

Median household income is $50,233 cite (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/012528.html).

Assuming married and filing jointly with 2 children, standard deduction is $11,400. That means taxable income is only ~ $39,800.

Marginal rate on the first $8,350 is 10%. Marginal rate up to $33,950 is 15%. Marginal rate on the remainder is 25%.

So (8350 x .1) + ((33950-8350) x .15) + ((39,800-33950) x .25) = $6137.50 in taxes. Then you subtract $2,000 for the children. So $4,137.50 in taxes paid on $50,233 of income.

Or 8.2%. Roughly half of what this website shows.

So, in order to estimate 17% of your income goes to federal income taxes, the individual would need to be making more than the "average" person.

And where in all that math do you include the FICA taxes? Nowhere, they are Federal Taxes as well and amount to are 15.30% of FICA wages. Now FICA wages are capped at around 97.5K so there is a top limit. It is clear that your estimate of 8.2% plus about 15.30% would put the average family paying out 23.5%.

FAIL! 23.5% > 17% so I can easily see where this would balance out to average near the claimed 17%.

[Rocktar]

You failed at quoting that reference in the proper order. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKLYEAC4F2U

Goddamnit! I did at that. Well, that is what I get for trusting my memory of a movie I haven't watched in over 3 years.

[Latrinsorm]

Because clicking ACCEPT on the EULA when I install a video game is exactly like signing a document saying Bush was behind 9/11. If I was going to sign a document having anything to do with 9/11 though, I'd be sure to read every word first.You haven't read every word of the statements you've agreed to, and yet you know they don't have anything to do with 9/11. How is this possible? One might conclude that because 9/11 had nothing to do with Duke Nukem 3D, a reasonable person wouldn't suspect that 9/11 would be mentioned in a statement about Duke Nukem 3D.

One might conclude that because President Bush had nothing to do with 9/11, a reasonable person wouldn't suspect that President Bush would be mentioned in a statement about 9/11.

(As an aside, I apologize for misunderstanding "[a]nyone who signs any document" to mean any person signing any document, but in my defense your clarifications are not immediately obvious in the original text.)
I also don't plan on being in charge of taxpayer money or working for the government either.Hence the second question. I challenge anyone to truthfully say they have read every word of every EULA they have ever agreed to.

[Rocktar]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the U.S. has one of the lowest tax rates amongst industrialized first world countries.

ANNNNNDDDDDD again, what does this have to do with anything?

Not one damn thing. That logic is train is derailed. If you had ever met my mom, and used that train of logic, she would have asked you "So, theE, if everyone else stuck their head in a shit filled toilet, would you have to follow along?" Apparently, your answer would have to be an unreserved "Yes ma'am." Because if you had replied with the proper Southern term of respect for elders, she would have slapped the living shit right out of your Liberal/Socialist self and disposed of your then empty skin because she lived in a time where smacking dumb-asses was not only acceptable, it was expected.

You are just riding the Fail train to nowhere today.

[Methais]

You haven't read every word of the statements you've agreed to, and yet you know they don't have anything to do with 9/11. How is this possible? One might conclude that because 9/11 had nothing to do with Duke Nukem 3D, a reasonable person wouldn't suspect that 9/11 would be mentioned in a statement about Duke Nukem 3D.

One might conclude that because President Bush had nothing to do with 9/11, a reasonable person wouldn't suspect that President Bush would be mentioned in a statement about 9/11.

(As an aside, I apologize for misunderstanding "[a]nyone who signs any document" to mean any person signing any document, but in my defense your clarifications are not immediately obvious in the original text.)Hence the second question. I challenge anyone to truthfully say they have read every word of every EULA they have ever agreed to.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/11/12/128710037872615390.jpg

Van Jones wasn't signing an EULA though was he?

If I were signing a petition for anything, I would read it first. Anyone who's not a complete idiot would read it first.

[Rocktar]

What's that.. 5 or 6? I've lost count. But hey.. they are just misunderstood.

Damn, they are dropping just like...acorns from a tree.

I guess when they say "Lets shake the tree and see who falls out" this is what they mean.

Damn, a good laugh fest before bed. Thanks guys, I mean it, cheers me up.

[Keller]

And where in all that math do you include the FICA taxes? Nowhere, they are Federal Taxes as well and amount to are 15.30% of FICA wages. Now FICA wages are capped at around 97.5K so there is a top limit. It is clear that your estimate of 8.2% plus about 15.30% would put the average family paying out 23.5%.

FAIL! 23.5% > 17% so I can easily see where this would balance out to average near the claimed 17%.

I know it's not your style to check sources or have any fucking CLUE what you're actually talking about before the filthy bullshit you propogate dribbles out of your mouth and down your chin, but did you even look at the site PB posted?

Maybe you should take a look at that site before you make yourself look more foolish.

They separately included FICA taxes. I was taking issue with the supposition that the individual they were assessing was "average" as opposed to "above average."

Therefore I compared their average federal income tax rate (17%) to the average federal income tax rate of the median household. I'm sure, because you're super-duper smart, that you inferred that, right? You just wanted to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, and aren't actually a giant retard masquerading as a genius level IQ on the internet.

Right?

[TheRunt]

Yet ANOTHER video regarding ACORN and their misunderstood attempts to help a budding capitalist get a brothel of underage latino girls up and running.

NATIONAL CITY, Calif. — ACORN officials in San Diego have fired an employee caught on video providing advice about human smuggling to a couple posing as a pimp and a prostitute.

David Lagstein, the group's head organizer in San Diego, initially said Thursday that he believed Juan Carlos Vera did his best to deal with a challenging situation and would not be disciplined. But three hours later, Lagstein reversed that decision.

What's that.. 5 or 6? I've lost count. But hey.. they are just misunderstood.
I think that one was 5. And I like the way they worded it, providing "advice"?
From the video it sounds like he was offering to help smuggle them in, he recommended Tijuana because he has contacts there and gave them his number to call him to help set it up. And he seemed quite interested in how much the "hooker" charged. It seems like they keep getting worse and worse as he releases them, if he has any more I almost hate to see what they show.
http://www.youtube.com/user/veritasvisuals#play/uploads

ETA ACORN = Family Values 09-16-2009 01:58 PM learn to count
Baltimore, DC, NYC, San Bernadino, San Diego.... .:thinking:

[TheEschaton]

I don't support issues because people find them popular or relevant, Rocktar. If I did, I'd be on your side of most issues. No, I rely on logic, reason, and a certain sense of morality completely lacking in an argument that advocates personal greed over the health of one's neighbors.

[CrystalTears]

I challenge anyone to truthfully say they have read every word of every EULA they have ever agreed to.
And yet if you sign it, you have no room to complain if you don't agree to something later which was clearly explained in the EULA.

Just because people don't normally do it doesn't make it any less the responsibility of the signer to know what they are signing.

[Back]

Like republicans dressed up as hookers and pimps know what family values are... please.

[Methais]

Like republicans dressed up as hookers and pimps know what family values are... please.

http://dontdateherbro.com/site/home/dontdate/public_html/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lolwut_verbose.jpg

[Parkbandit]

http://dontdateherbro.com/site/home/dontdate/public_html/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lolwut_verbose.jpg

It's Friday night, after 6pm. That's the weed talking.

[Methais]

It's Friday night, after 6pm. That's the weed talking.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/mikisbad33/weed-bikini.jpg

http://declubz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/grama-bong-hit.jpg

[Back]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/mikisbad33/weed-bikini.jpg

I do not condone the use of illegal substances. But I would smoke that.

[Latrinsorm]

And yet if you sign it, you have no room to complain if you don't agree to something later which was clearly explained in the EULA.

Just because people don't normally do it doesn't make it any less the responsibility of the signer to know what they are signing.There are two trains of thought I'm trying to address here, so allow me to clarify: the EULA argument is meant to illustrate how the "people ought to read everything they ever sign" train is disingenuous.

The second and slightly different train is what we can reasonably and/or legally conclude from Mr. Jones' signature: my contention is that we have credible testimony that the other party engaged in deceitful behavior on multiple occasions, and that is therefore reasonable to conclude from his protests that Mr. Jones was also deceived. I can't say whether the statement is Mr. Jones' responsibility, but I am very comfortable saying it is not representative of his views.

[radamanthys]

There are two trains of thought I'm trying to address here, so allow me to clarify: the EULA argument is meant to illustrate how the "people ought to read everything they ever sign" train is disingenuous.

The second and slightly different train is what we can reasonably and/or legally conclude from Mr. Jones' signature: my contention is that we have credible testimony that the other party engaged in deceitful behavior on multiple occasions, and that is therefore reasonable to conclude from his protests that Mr. Jones was also deceived. I can't say whether the statement is Mr. Jones' responsibility, but I am very comfortable saying it is not representative of his views.

Perhaps it's more frightning that he's so far partisan that he'll agree and support with whatever's thrown at him, without regard to veracity, as long as it's touted by someone within his own particular sect of dogma. That's not really the type of leadership we should support, regardless of political affiliation.

More to the point- signing it ruined his credibility. Either he agrees with the sentiment of the petition (which I'd bet an 'overwhelming portion' of the signatories did), or he disagreed and signed anyway, showing that his judgement is lacking. Either way, signing that petition was wrong.

[Rocktar]

Therefore I compared their average federal income tax rate (17%) to the average federal income tax rate of the median household. I'm sure, because you're super-duper smart, that you inferred that, right? You just wanted to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, and aren't actually a giant retard masquerading as a genius level IQ on the internet.

Right?

You do know that Median is not the same as Average right? I don't see anywhere in their site that they say Median. In the case of payers of income tax, the difference in definition is quite significant. In the case of counting the number of your brain cells active at any one time, it is not. The Mean, Median and Average of the sum total is still zero. You did not, anywhere, compare Median and Average, you simply pulled some math out of your ass and called the Average incorrect because you chose to sue the Median. Thanks for playing.