Top Scholar Arrested, Claims Racism

[Parkbandit]

BOSTON (July 21) – Police responding to a call about "two black males" breaking into a home near Harvard University ended up arresting the man who lives there — Henry Louis Gates Jr., the nation's pre-eminent black scholar.
Gates had forced his way through the front door because it was jammed, his lawyer said. Colleagues call the arrest last Thursday afternoon a clear case of racial profiling.

Cambridge police say they responded to the well-maintained two-story home after a woman reported seeing "two black males with backpacks on the porch," with one "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."

By the time police arrived, Gates was already inside. Police say he refused to come outside to speak with an officer, who told him he was investigating a report of a break-in.

"Why, because I'm a black man in America?" Gates said, according to a police report written by Sgt. James Crowley. The Cambridge police refused to comment on the arrest Monday.

Gates — the director of Harvard's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research — initially refused to show the officer his identification, but then gave him a Harvard University ID card, according to police.

"Gates continued to yell at me, accusing me of racial bias and continued to tell me that I had not heard the last of him," the officer wrote.
Gates said he turned over his driver's license and Harvard ID — both with his photos — and repeatedly asked for the name and badge number of the officer, who refused. He said he then followed the officer as he left his house onto his front porch, where he was handcuffed in front of other officers, Gates said in a statement released by his attorney, fellow Harvard scholar Charles Ogletree, on a Web site Gates oversees, TheRoot.com
He was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge after police said he "exhibited loud and tumultuous behavior." He was released later that day on his own recognizance. An arraignment was scheduled for Aug. 26.
Gates, 58, also refused to speak publicly Monday, referring calls to Ogletree.
"He was shocked to find himself being questioned and shocked that the conversation continued after he showed his identification," Ogletree said.
Ogletree declined to say whether he believed the incident was racially motivated, saying "I think the incident speaks for itself."
Some of Gates' African-American colleagues say the arrest is part of a pattern of racial profiling in Cambridge.

Allen Counter, who has taught neuroscience at Harvard for 25 years, said he was stopped on campus by two Harvard police officers in 2004 after being mistaken for a robbery suspect. They threatened to arrest him when he could not produce identification.

"We do not believe that this arrest would have happened if professor Gates was white," Counter said. "It really has been very unsettling for African-Americans throughout Harvard and throughout Cambridge that this happened."
The Rev. Al Sharpton is vowing to attend Gates' arraignment.
"This arrest is indicative of at best police abuse of power or at worst the highest example of racial profiling I have seen," Sharpton said. "I have heard of driving while black and even shopping while black but now even going to your own home while black is a new low in police community affairs."
Ogletree said Gates had returned from a trip to China on Thursday with a driver, when he found his front door jammed. He went through the back door into the home — which he leases from Harvard — shut off an alarm and worked with the driver to get the door open. The driver left, and Gates was on the phone with the property's management company when police first arrived.

Ogletree also disputed the claim that Gates, who was wearing slacks and a polo shirt and carrying a cane, was yelling at the officer.
"He has an infection that has impacted his breathing since he came back from China, so he's been in a very delicate physical state," Ogletree said.
Lawrence D. Bobo, the W.E.B Du Bois Professor of the Social Sciences at Harvard, said he met with Gates at the police station and described his colleague as feeling humiliated and "emotionally devastated."
"It's just deeply disappointing but also a pointed reminder that there are serious problems that we have to wrestle with," he said.
Bobo said he hoped Cambridge police would drop the charges and called on the department to use the incident to review training and screening procedures it has in place.

The Middlesex district attorney's office said it could not do so until after Gates' arraignment. The woman who reported the apparent break-in did not return a message Monday.

Gates joined the Harvard faculty in 1991 and holds one of 20 prestigious "university professors" positions at the school. He also was host of "African American Lives," a PBS show about the family histories of prominent U.S. blacks, and was named by Time magazine as one of the 25 most influential Americans in 1997.
"I was obviously very concerned when I learned on Thursday about the incident," Harvard president Drew Gilpin Faust said in a statement. "He and I spoke directly and I have asked him to keep me apprised."

http://news.aol.com/article/henry-louis-gates-arrested/579590

If he was white and less "outraged", would the same thing have happened? I contend yes. Hey "scholar".. when the officer asks you a simple question.. how about the first thing out of your mouth isn't "OMG U R RACIST!"

[Gan]

Racist!

[AnticorRifling]

He's a douche bag. The cop, doing his job, isn't the racist. I hope when Gates does have an issue and calls the cops they say sorry can't help we're too busy being racist.

Someone reports a potential B and E. Cops show up and the guy inside refuses to cooperate no shit he's going to be in handcuffs he's a potential suspect because they can't rule him out as being the owner of the home since he won't cooperate. Fuck this dude.

He should thank the neighbor for calling in suspicous activity of someone shouldering open his door. He should thank the cops for responding. He should then move his ass to another country and see how well not cooperating with the police goes. Then when he's eating through a fucking straw he can move back and say sorry.

[waywardgs]

Racism in Boston? No way!!

Honestly though, this is probably a two-way street, despite how the article presents the prof as a douchebag.

[Bobmuhthol]

After reading http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20090720_Store_video_catches_cop_bullying_woman.ht ml?viewAll=y yesterday I am less confident that he was as uncooperative as the police claim. The people complaining about Gates are basing it on the report by police that he was acting improperly. If he was, sure, you're totally right; unfortunately, nothing proves that he was. The fact that he was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge when the police came looking for two black males breaking into a home leads me to question the validity of the arrest.

[waywardgs]

People seem to forget that one of the main reasons you become a cop is so you have permission to be an asshole.

[AnticorRifling]

People seem to forget that one of the main reasons you become a cop is so you have permission to be an asshole.
I would disagree with this and hope that you're joking and/or forgot itallics.

[AnticorRifling]

After reading http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20090720_Store_video_catches_cop_bullying_woman.ht ml?viewAll=y yesterday I am less confident that he was as uncooperative as the police claim. The people complaining about Gates are basing it on the report by police that he was acting improperly. If he was, sure, you're totally right; unfortunately, nothing proves that he was. The fact that he was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge when the police came looking for two black males breaking into a home leads me to question the validity of the arrest. The cop in your story was a raging douche no question. I don't think it brings the validity of the current case in to question it's just a good example that people on both side of the badge can royally fuck up in a situation.

We're talking about a response to a call of a break in, with description of potential suspectes potentially still on scene, not a case of "Hey dad I hit a car and left the scene can you come scare the bitch plz?!"

I hope the cop in your story gets jail time Bob.

[Krendeli]

Someone forgot to tell him that there's a black president and he no longer gets to play his race card.

[NocturnalRob]

Clearly he didn't read this thread:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=44628

[Geshron]

Yes, cops never profile anyone based on the color of their skin. Especially in Cambridge. What a ridiculous notion.

[Bhuryn]

Only thing I took out of the article was ... kids with backpacks ... high schoolers causing trouble again...

[Rocktar]

The cop doesn't deserve jail time, and professor dickweed needs to get a clue, all he had to do was say, when first questioned, "Officer, this is my house, here is my ID, the door was stuck and I had to force it to open. In the desk here you can find some utility bills with my name on them." Or some such shit. Instead, act and ass, get cuffed, not racist.

[Euler]

I was with the prof. and all like power to the people and fuck the police until I read:


The Rev. Al Sharpton is vowing to attend Gates' arraignment.
"This arrest is indicative of at best police abuse of power or at worst the highest example of racial profiling I have seen," Sharpton said. "I have heard of driving while black and even shopping while black but now even going to your own home while black is a new low in police community affairs."

now I am not so sure. Usually if the good rev. stands on the same side of an issue that I do, it convinces me to reconsider being neutral.

[AnticorRifling]

Yes, cops never profile anyone based on the color of their skin. Especially in Cambridge. What a ridiculous notion. Yup people never give the cops a hard time when they are just doing their job and then bitch about it even though they are in the wrong. Especially in America. What a crazy notion.

See what I did there?

[AnticorRifling]

I was with the prof. and all like power to the people and fuck the police until I read:



now I am not so sure. Usually if the good rev. stands on the same side of an issue that I do, it convinces me to reconsider being neutral. Just make sure you note he refers to black people as black, but if I do it I'm a racist. :)

[Geshron]

Yup people never give the cops a hard time when they are just doing their job and then bitch about it even though they are in the wrong. Especially in America. What a crazy notion.

See what I did there?

Yes, took the side of white police officers arresting someone because they are fucking pissed off they are being questioned in their own home as to what the nature of their presence in the home is? Or yet the 100,000th non-clever, quick to rebuttal quoting on this board? Yes, another attempt to outwit/quote someone into the ground. It's painfully evident that it's not even thought of to put yourself in the professor's shoes. Black or not.

[Bhuryn]

Yes, took the side of white police officers arresting someone because they are fucking pissed off they are being questioned in their own home as to what the nature of their presence in the home is? Or yet the 100,000th non-clever, quick to rebuttal quoting on this board? Yes, another attempt to outwit/quote someone into the ground. It's painfully evident that it's not even thought of to put yourself in the professor's shoes. Black or not.

Except, if he went to the door and simply proved that he lived there they probably would have avoided the entire situation? It's not really unreasonable and I'd expect them to do the same to anyone.

[RichardCranium]

Yes, took the side of white police officers arresting someone because they are fucking pissed off they are being questioned in their own home as to what the nature of their presence in the home is? Or yet the 100,000th non-clever, quick to rebuttal quoting on this board? Yes, another attempt to outwit/quote someone into the ground. It's painfully evident that it's not even thought of to put yourself in the professor's shoes. Black or not.

It's ok to be indignant when being questioned after having to force your way into your own home. It is NOT ok to act in a manner that causes your arrest in your own home. I always address the police with "yes sir" or "no ma'm" just based on past experiences when I was the baddest motherfucker alive.

[Keller]

Somebody broke into my house once. This is a good time to call the police, but mm mm, nope. The house was too nice. It was a real nice house, but they'd never believe I lived in it. They'd be like "He's still here!" Whack! "Oh my god. Open and shut case, Johnson. I saw this once when I was a rookie. Apparently this ni**er broke in and put up pictures of his family everywhere.

.

[NocturnalRob]

Quick, sprinkle some crack on him and let's get outta here.

[Geshron]

.

:rofl:

[AnticorRifling]

Yes, took the side of white police officers arresting someone because they are fucking pissed off they are being questioned in their own home as to what the nature of their presence in the home is? Or yet the 100,000th non-clever, quick to rebuttal quoting on this board? Yes, another attempt to outwit/quote someone into the ground. It's painfully evident that it's not even thought of to put yourself in the professor's shoes. Black or not.
Did the article tell us the police officer was white or is that what we're assuming?

I take the side of the police officer because they were, until proven otherwise (still in America aren't we) doing their jobs.

If a cop comes to my house saying there are reports of a break in at this address can we see some ID I say "Yes sir." I don't need to put myself in the professor's shoes, I've been there. I've been questioned in my home for suspicous activity. I didn't assume the female officer was being sexist, I assumed she was doing her job and I followed instructions.

Maybe it's because I've never had an issue, or a reason to have issue with law enforcement that I tend to side with them. Maybe it's because they will catch a bullet for me, or in the case of a good friend of mine did catch a bullet for me. I will defend the good officers to the death, and I hate assumptions that the officers responding to a call are evil.

[Geshron]

Did the article tell us the police officer was white or is that what we're assuming?

I take the side of the police officer because they were, until proven otherwise (still in America aren't we) doing their jobs.

If a cop comes to my house saying there are reports of a break in at this address can we see some ID I say "Yes sir." I don't need to put myself in the professor's shoes, I've been there. I've been questioned in my home for suspicous activity. I didn't assume the female officer was being sexist, I assumed she was doing her job and I followed instructions.

Maybe it's because I've never had an issue, or a reason to have issue with law enforcement that I tend to side with them. Maybe it's because they will catch a bullet for me, or in the case of a good friend of mine did catch a bullet for me. I will defend the good officers to the death, and I hate assumptions that the officers responding to a call are evil.

I see your point completely. All I am saying is, it's equally aggravating to assume the black man will immediately cry "racism". I don't know the guy personally but, I'd assume he's educated enough not to toy with is own career and image for the sake of some headlines and the backing of Rev. Sharpton.

If it turns out he is some kind of former Black Panther party member or there is more light to shed than a few police reports I'd recant. Also, I'd naturally deduct the officers were white unless he was accusing another black officer of profiling.

[ViridianAsp]

Am I the only one who would be relieved that my neighbors cared enough to call the police and tell them someone was trying to force entry to my house?

Even if it was me? I mean, I wouldn't have argued, produced my identification on the spot and been cooperative, they just wanted to make sure 1. his identity was his own 2. It isn't the police's fault the lady who called deemed them "black men." 3. He was completely disrespectful, I know he's been through profiling before but that doesn't mean you disrespect the people trying to protect your property.

[radamanthys]

So... the cops get a report of black guys breaking into houses in the area. They see a black guy trying to break into a house. They arrest him.

And we blame them?

WTF?

If I was locked out and trying to break in, I hope a passing cop would arrest the shit out of me. I'd hope he'd do the same thing to any fucker trying to steal the 596 year old laptop, half-empty jar of mustard, and can of Vienna Sausages from my fridge.

[NocturnalRob]

Also, I'd naturally deduct the officers were white unless he was accusing another black officer of profiling.
is he deducting or deducing? regardless, the automatic cry of "racism" every time a black man is detained or otherwise inconvenienced is getting fucking old.

and al sharpton can kiss my fucking ass. first he credits Michael Jackson for making Obama president. Then he latches on to this. Will that guy just fucking crawl off somewhere and die already instead of "championing" every fucking perceived racially motivated slight?


and half a can of Vienna Sausages from my fridge.
sorry, i got hungry.

[ViridianAsp]

is he deducting or deducing? regardless, the automatic cry of "racism" every time a black man is detained or otherwise inconvenienced is getting fucking old.

and al sharpton can kiss my fucking ass. first he credits Michael Jackson for making Obama president. Then he latches on to this. Will that guy just fucking crawl off somewhere and die already instead of "championing" every fucking perceived racially motivated slight?


sorry, i got hungry.

But then who will defend his black brothers?! Mentally sound and ethical black men? Oh no! We cannot have that.

[AnticorRifling]

I don't think the cops saw the attempted break in. I think it was a followup to a civilian calling in suspicous activity with descriptions of the unknowns.

[radamanthys]

sorry, i got hungry.

Shit, you're the bastard that ate my sausages? I was saving them for a special occasion!

[AnticorRifling]

I see your point completely. All I am saying is, it's equally aggravating to assume the black man will immediately cry "racism". I don't know the guy personally but, I'd assume he's educated enough not to toy with is own career and image for the sake of some headlines and the backing of Rev. Sharpton.

If it turns out he is some kind of former Black Panther party member or there is more light to shed than a few police reports I'd recant. Also, I'd naturally deduct the officers were white unless he was accusing another black officer of profiling.
Why didn't he just cry wrongdoing or failure to follow procedure, maybe even actions not becoming of a LEO. No it was cries of racism. Should I start taking bets on said prof having a book coming out soon and this is his version of a sex tape to get publicity and hype prior to release? (Realistically no way in hell but I could see it).

Also he's educated, that doesn't mean he's smart. Book smarts != street smarts/common sense and they don't always go hand in hand. Lots of "smart" people do really, really dumb shit.

[Anebriated]

true story. the company I work for hired a guy with a doctorate recently and I must say hes the dumbest smart person I know. Guy lacks anything relatively close to common sense.

[AnticorRifling]

true story. the company I work for hired a guy with a doctorate recently and I must say hes the dumbest smart person I know. Guy lacks anything relatively close to common sense.
Not uncommon. Some of the research fellows I did IT work for baffled me in their inability to function outside of a lab.

[radamanthys]

I knew a girl freshman year. She got good grades. But really, the smartest thing to ever come out of her mouth was my dick.

[NocturnalRob]

I knew a girl freshman year. She got good grades. But really, the smartest thing to ever come out of her mouth was my dick.
isn't that pretty much for all women? although, in your case, i'm sure it applies to some dudes as well.

[AnticorRifling]

I knew a girl freshman year. She got good grades. But really, the smartest thing to ever come out of her mouth was my dick.
So she was prone to small fits of wisdom.

[Warriorbird]

I take the side of the police officer because they were, until proven otherwise (still in America aren't we) doing their jobs.

Completely neglecting the idea that one of the most respected scholars in America in his own home might possibly not be guilty of anything either? You'd probably side with black cops arresting Alan Dershowitz too, your bias shows.

Gates probably flew off the handle. The police also likely knew very well what type of area they were going into. Nobody's 'the right side' here.

[AnticorRifling]

Completely neglecting the idea that one of the most respected scholars in America in his own home might possibly not be guilty of anything either? You'd probably side with black cops arresting Alan Dershowitz too, your bias shows.

Gates probably flew off the handle. The police also likely knew very well what type of area they were going into. Nobody's 'the right side' here. If the situation were the same I probably would side with the officers (they are all blue to me).


If he doesn't ID himself and is in a reported potential hostile situation he's creating headache for himself. He can't blame anything or anyone but himself.

[Bhuryn]

Completely neglecting the idea that one of the most respected scholars in America in his own home might possibly not be guilty of anything either? You'd probably side with black cops arresting Alan Dershowitz too, your bias shows.

Gates probably flew off the handle. The police also likely knew very well what type of area they were going into. Nobody's 'the right side' here.

Actually the police are on the right side -- It's well within their rights to investigate a possible break in. Black, white or otherwise, it was his prerogative to either comply and identify himself or risk arrest.

Expecting the police to know who his and be able to identify him just because he's a popular intellectual? That's ridiculous.

[Warriorbird]

No. Expecting the police to know that it was a well-off neighborhood and a guy sitting in a home, dressed well, likely isn't a burglary suspect? Not too far off. Cops know cities incredibly well... and crimes.

...and sure, I'm sure Gates acted like a jerk. I imagine most Harvard professors would, regardless of race. That doesn't mean the average cop wouldn't be ignorant of the potential ramifications, whether the complaint was rightful or no.

Then again, we had a cop shoot a miniature dachsund nearby where I'm at right now, so you never can tell. I'd assume that the Cambridge police are trained to be slightly more sensitive, however.

[Mabus]

Charges were dropped.


Charges dropped against black Harvard scholar

By MELISSA TRUJILLO (AP) – 15 minutes ago

BOSTON — Prosecutors dropped a disorderly conduct charge Tuesday against prominent black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr., who was arrested at his home near Harvard University after a report of a break-in.

The city of Cambridge issued a statement saying the arrest "was regrettable and unfortunate" and police and Gates agreed that dropping the charge was a just resolution.

"This incident should not be viewed as one that demeans the character and reputation of professor Gates or the character of the Cambridge Police Department," the statement said.

Supporters say Gates — the director of Harvard's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research — was the victim of racial profiling.

Officers responded to the home Gates rents from Harvard after a woman reported seeing two black men trying to force open the front door. Gates' lawyer, fellow Harvard scholar Charles Ogletree, said the professor had returned from a trip overseas, found his front-door jammed and had to force it open.

Police said the 58-year-old Gates was arrested after he yelled at an officer, accused him of racial bias and refused to calm down after the officer demanded Gates show him identification to prove he lived in the home.

Gates declined immediate comment Tuesday, and Ogletree did not immediately return a request to comment on the charge being dropped.

Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

[AnticorRifling]

No. Expecting the police to know that it was a well-off neighborhood and a guy sitting in a home, dressed well, likely isn't a burglary suspect? Not too far off. Cops know cities incredibly well... and crimes.

A well off neighborhood where someone called and said I just saw a break-in....

And I checked there is no standard issue for what to where while doing some B and E. To cover your ass everyone is a suspected threat until proven otherwise. An old man can still pull a trigger.

[Tsa`ah]

And this is political how?

[Bhuryn]

That actually pisses me off more then anything else. Charge him. I guess working at Harvard and being "smart" (which is obviously debatable) precludes you from guilt.

[AnticorRifling]

Charges were dropped.

This line:

"This incident should not be viewed as one that demeans the character and reputation of professor Gates or the character of the Cambridge Police Department," the statement said.


Is probably the best thing in that text. It allows both parties to go about their business feeling like they were right. Unfortunatly parties not involved won't let that happen.

[AnticorRifling]

That actually pisses me off more then anything else. Charge him. I guess working at Harvard and being "smart" (which is obviously debatable) precludes you from guilt. I'd chalk it up to more headache than it's worth. You'll have hippie protests to deal with, media swarms, etc. Too much shit to get in the way of day to day lives and that's what the LEOs should be looking at.

[ViridianAsp]

No. Expecting the police to know that it was a well-off neighborhood and a guy sitting in a home, dressed well, likely isn't a burglary suspect? Not too far off. Cops know cities incredibly well... and crimes.

...and sure, I'm sure Gates acted like a jerk. I imagine most Harvard professors would, regardless of race. That doesn't mean the average cop wouldn't be ignorant of the potential ramifications, whether the complaint was rightful or no.

Right, because someone well-dressed wouldn't steal from anyone. Police are supposed to investigate, if he had been cooperative and respectful, the police would have had everything straightened in a few minutes.

Instead, he shot off his mouth, refused to identify himself and decided make more of the situation than was needed. If I were in the policeman's shoes regardless of race, could have been white, black, hispanic...whatever, I would have arrested him for his misconduct.

Good thing I'm not in law enforcement, I'd hate to be in these officer's shoes having to deal with some idiot who thinks I'm profiling him and decides to pull the race card. I personally think he owes the policemen an apology for his disrespect. After all they were only making sure his residence was safe.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Black, white or otherwise, it was his prerogative to either comply and identify himself or risk arrest.>>

It's funny that you say this, because all involved parties admit that he did, in fact, identify himself and he was not arrested out of suspicion but instead for disorderly conduct after the fact.

<<Expecting the police to know who his and be able to identify him just because he's a popular intellectual? That's ridiculous.>>

See above; your entire argument here is totally irrelevant.


In other news, the Middlesex DA is dropping all charges against Gates. Where is your law enforcement god now?

[Bhuryn]

<<Black, white or otherwise, it was his prerogative to either comply and identify himself or risk arrest.>>

It's funny that you say this, because all involved parties admit that he did, in fact, identify himself and he was not arrested out of suspicion but instead for disorderly conduct after the fact.

<<Black, white or otherwise, it was his prerogative to either comply and identify himself or risk arrest.>>

See above; your entire argument here is totally irrelevant.


In other news, the Middlesex DA is dropping all charges against Gates. Where is your law enforcement god now?

They're arresting gates for being a douchebag.

[AnticorRifling]

When I arrest people I get the race card thrown in my face every now and then. I laugh at it.

"You're only arresting me because I'm black!"

"Actually I'm arresting you for the X amount of merchandise that you stole."

The people that throw the race card at me really hate it when I show them the metrics that show most of my cases are on white teenagers.

[Fallen]

Who the fuck argues with the cops...ever? What do you think that is going to accomplish? When will your situation IMPROVE by being anything but 100% cooperative with police? People are fucking stupid.

[Anebriated]

The thing that bothers me the most about this is that Gates is the African American studies professor and is apparently pretty well respected in his field. This sort of mentality by professors is a very sad thing especially when they are supposed to be representing one of the top end education establishments in the US. Honestly what is someone like this going to teach the youth? How to be a bigot and carry hatred with you your entire life?

[ViridianAsp]

It's funny that you say this, because all involved parties admit that he did, in fact, identify himself and he was not arrested out of suspicion but instead for disorderly conduct after the fact.


"Gates continued to yell at me, accusing me of racial bias and continued to tell me that I had not heard the last of him," the officer wrote.
Gates said he turned over his driver's license and Harvard ID — both with his photos — and repeatedly asked for the name and badge number of the officer, who refused. He said he then followed the officer as he left his house onto his front porch, where he was handcuffed in front of other officers, Gates said in a statement released by his attorney, fellow Harvard scholar Charles Ogletree, on a Web site Gates oversees, TheRoot.com
He was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge after police said he "exhibited loud and tumultuous behavior."

That's why, AFTER he gave them identification, he continued on with his behavior.

So, obviously considering the gross disrespect they arrested him. But I agree, this point is moot, seeing as they dropped the charges. I do hope he offered the police an apology for his behavior.

[waywardgs]

"Gates continued to yell at me, accusing me of racial bias and continued to tell me that I had not heard the last of him," the officer wrote.
Gates said he turned over his driver's license and Harvard ID — both with his photos — and repeatedly asked for the name and badge number of the officer, who refused. He said he then followed the officer as he left his house onto his front porch, where he was handcuffed in front of other officers, Gates said in a statement released by his attorney, fellow Harvard scholar Charles Ogletree, on a Web site Gates oversees, TheRoot.com
He was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge after police said he "exhibited loud and tumultuous behavior."

That's why, AFTER he gave them identification, he continued on with his behavior.

So, obviously considering the gross disrespect they arrested him. But I agree, this point is moot, seeing as they dropped the charges. I do hope he offered the police an apology for his behavior.

What are the rules for police officers who have been asked for identification? Don't they have to comply as well?

[ViridianAsp]

What are the rules for police officers who have been asked for identification? Don't they have to comply as well?

Why should they when someone is yelling at them and obviously acting irrational, while they are trying to handle the situation at hand?

[AnticorRifling]

What are the rules for police officers who have been asked for identification? Don't they have to comply as well? Depends on the department, the situation, etc. Some departments say no let them call in and get the info, others say each officer will carry and distribute cards.

[waywardgs]

Why should they when someone is yelling at them and obviously acting irrational, while they are trying to handle the situation at hand?

I'm just curious as to the rules for giving their identification.

[AnticorRifling]

Why should they when someone is yelling at them and obviously acting irrational, while they are trying to handle the situation at hand?

Again that would depend on policy. So this might be a policy violation depending on the particular department's rules. However I can't see an officer handing out ID until the situation has been calmed down because there are other things to worry about.

[ViridianAsp]

I'm just curious as to the rules for giving their identification.

I'm fairly sure it would be very easy to locate a police officer's identity through the police department or a police report.

[Bhuryn]

Ha, I went to theroots.com. Some guy posted a long rant about how this was obviously racially biased and how his friend was internationally recognizable!

I'm sure 95% of the Us population wouldn't recognize him and if his friend hadn't been a raging douchebag he wouldn't have been arrested anyway.

[AnticorRifling]

Yeah prior to this I wouldn't have been able to tell him apart from Lee Majors.

[Tsa`ah]

Who the fuck argues with the cops...ever? What do you think that is going to accomplish? When will your situation IMPROVE by being anything but 100% cooperative with police? People are fucking stupid.

I argue with cops when I'm pulled over for no apparent reason, or the reason isn't made clear or the reason is given but I don't fit the bill.

I've been pulled over because my car matched the description of a vehicle with out of state plates and with more than 5 passengers (only person in the car). After producing a license, insurance, and registration ... you bet your ass I'm going to argue with a cop when it takes him more than 20 minutes to let me go.

I've been pulled over for buying visine and breath mints, simply because the person in front of me was buying rolling papers and the person behind me was a cop. You had better believe I'm going to argue with a cop who is wasting my time because he suspects the person ahead of me had to be with me, and that I was transporting illicit substances.

I've been pulled over at 3am two blocks from my home. "because I was driving in a residential neighborhood) .... you had better believe I'm going to argue with the officer if he takes his sweet fucking time validating the information given to him.

I've been pulled over dozens of times on my fatboy for no better reason than "we wanted to know who you were".

Unless I have broken a law, unless it really is a random seatbelt/insurance check ... I'm going to fucking argue.

Hell, one of my former supervisors used to get pulled over 3-4 times a month ... because he was a black guy driving a BMW.

[diethx]

What are the rules for police officers who have been asked for identification? Don't they have to comply as well?

Don't most street cops (as in, ones that wear the typical uniforms) usually wear their badge numbers, or at the very least their names, on their chest? I haven't had very many run-ins with cops, but each time this was the case.

[Parkbandit]

I argue with cops when I'm pulled over for no apparent reason, or the reason isn't made clear or the reason is given but I don't fit the bill.

I've been pulled over because my car matched the description of a vehicle with out of state plates and with more than 5 passengers (only person in the car). After producing a license, insurance, and registration ... you bet your ass I'm going to argue with a cop when it takes him more than 20 minutes to let me go.

I've been pulled over for buying visine and breath mints, simply because the person in front of me was buying rolling papers and the person behind me was a cop. You had better believe I'm going to argue with a cop who is wasting my time because he suspects the person ahead of me had to be with me, and that I was transporting illicit substances.

I've been pulled over at 3am two blocks from my home. "because I was driving in a residential neighborhood) .... you had better believe I'm going to argue with the officer if he takes his sweet fucking time validating the information given to him.

I've been pulled over dozens of times on my fatboy for no better reason than "we wanted to know who you were".

Unless I have broken a law, unless it really is a random seatbelt/insurance check ... I'm going to fucking argue.

Hell, one of my former supervisors used to get pulled over 3-4 times a month ... because he was a black guy driving a BMW.

Perfect example of:


Who the fuck argues with the cops...ever? What do you think that is going to accomplish? When will your situation IMPROVE by being anything but 100% cooperative with police? People are fucking stupid.

I get pulled over, but instead of acting like a poor innocent victim, I do what I am asked and I'm on my way. If the cop needs my explanation, I'll give it to them. If the cop needs to see my ID, I'll hand it to them.

[Incurable]

No. Expecting the police to know that it was a well-off neighborhood and a guy sitting in a home, dressed well, likely isn't a burglary suspect? Not too far off. Cops know cities incredibly well... and crimes.

I may have missed this in reading the article, but where did it mention that he was dressed a particular way? Usually when I travel I wear what is the most comfortable, not necessarily what is the best looking, and adding in that when I'm not feeling well I usually don't take extra time, or forethought, to make myself look particularly presentable. Finally, he was portrayed in the article as having been in a "Delicate physical state" he could have been dressed any number of non flattering ways. I know this situation/article/topic is not about profiling ones attire, but it may or may not have been a conscious or sub-conscious factor to the situation.

For instance if he was wearing a professors plaid elbow sown sweater, comfortable slacks, smoking a corncob pipe and wearing reading glasses. I can see the police officer probably believing he was not an intruder more readily than if he was wearing lets say sweats and a hoodie, or even jeans and a tee shirt.

As a side note I do find it intriguing that you assumed that he was well dressed. May I inquire weather that assumption was based on him being a Scholar, or him living in a nice neighborhood?

[Tsa`ah]

I get pulled over, but instead of acting like a poor innocent victim, I do what I am asked and I'm on my way. If the cop needs my explanation, I'll give it to them. If the cop needs to see my ID, I'll hand it to them.

Yet ... my arguments with cops have resulted in ... well nothing, nothing at all except perhaps not getting pulled over by the same cop again for a solution to his/her boredom or other random bullshit.

I've never been arrested or cuffed, I've never been ticketed ... or anything as a result of pointing out a cop's bullshit.

Of course no one has ever really raised your ability to read, let alone comprehend what you have read ... so the response to your moronic snipe would be best left at that.

[Keller]

Yet ... my arguments with cops have resulted in ... well nothing, nothing at all except perhaps not getting pulled over by the same cop again for a solution to his/her boredom or other random bullshit.

I've never been arrested or cuffed, I've never been ticketed ... or anything as a result of pointing out a cop's bullshit.

Of course no one has ever really raised your ability to read, let alone comprehend what you have read ... so the response to your moronic snipe would be best left at that.

If anyone else bragged about arguing with police officers, I would think they are just attention whoring.

But, I genuinely believe you are hard-headed/argument-loving enough to be that stupid.

[Back]

Lets face it. This would not have happened in the black part of town.

[diethx]

I may have missed this in reading the article, but where did it mention that he was dressed a particular way? Usually when I travel I wear what is the most comfortable, not necessarily what is the best looking, and adding in that when I'm not feeling well I usually don't take extra time, or forethought, to make myself look particularly presentable. Finally, he was portrayed in the article as having been in a "Delicate physical state" he could have been dressed any number of non flattering ways. I know this situation/article/topic is not about profiling ones attire, but it may or may not have been a conscious or sub-conscious factor to the situation.

For instance if he was wearing a professors plaid elbow sown sweater, comfortable slacks, smoking a corncob pipe and wearing reading glasses. I can see the police officer probably believing he was not an intruder more readily than if he was wearing lets say sweats and a hoodie, or even jeans and a tee shirt.

As a side note I do find it intriguing that you assumed that he was well dressed. May I inquire weather that assumption was based on him being a Scholar, or him living in a nice neighborhood?

It shouldn't matter anyway, as people of all tax brackets and social circles commit crimes. And anyone in any tax bracket/social circle can dress in ANY way (and yes I know those on welfare can't usually afford 5k dollar suits, but if someone wants something bad enough, there's always a way). Wardrobe is fucking irrelevant.

[Tsa`ah]

If I'm being pulled over for a reason of merit ... why argue. If the reason doesn't have merit ... you bet your ass I'm going to argue.

[AnticorRifling]

Yet ... my arguments with cops have resulted in ... well nothing, nothing at all except perhaps not getting pulled over by the same cop again for a solution to his/her boredom or other random bullshit.

I've never been arrested or cuffed, I've never been ticketed ... or anything as a result of pointing out a cop's bullshit.

Of course no one has ever really raised your ability to read, let alone comprehend what you have read ... so the response to your moronic snipe would be best left at that. What's your time worth? Did you gain anything or did you just lose time?

If I'm pulled over, even for no reason, I chalk it up to they've got a job to do and I'm not in their vest so I might not understand their position or have their info so I'll let them do their job and I'll move along. Now if it started getting into violating things like illegal search, different matter, but if it's just time they're wasting I'll do my best to minimize it.

[AnticorRifling]

Lets face it. This would not have happened in the black part of town.

Are you saying people in the black part of town don't call the cops when they see someone breaking into a house.

How racist of you Back.

[Parkbandit]

If anyone else bragged about arguing with police officers, I would think they are just attention whoring.

But, I genuinely believe you are hard-headed/argument-loving enough to be that stupid.

Only Tsa'ah could make me fully agree with Keller.

[Back]

Are you saying people in the black part of town don't call the cops when they see someone breaking into a house.

How racist of you Back.

http://images3.appbeacon.com/290007732_1.jpg

Is what this whole thread is about.

[Parkbandit]

Yet ... my arguments with cops have resulted in ... well nothing, nothing at all except perhaps not getting pulled over by the same cop again for a solution to his/her boredom or other random bullshit.

You bring it upon yourself Shit4Brains. Argue with a cop some more though.. and I can only hope that he continues to fuck with you to the point where he thinks you are pointing a gun at him and does the world a favor.

Seriously, I've never been one for police brutality.. but in your case I could be completely understanding if it happened.



I've never been arrested or cuffed, I've never been ticketed ... or anything as a result of pointing out a cop's bullshit.

Jesus fucking Christ... I think Chris Rock said it best: "What kind of ignorant shit is that? 'I ain't never been in jail'.. What do you want, a cookie? You're not supposed to go to jail, you low expectation having mother fucker!"



Of course no one has ever really raised your ability to read, let alone comprehend what you have read ... so the response to your moronic snipe would be best left at that.

Yes, yes, I can't read. I must have absorbed your stupidity via braille or something.

[4a6c1]

True story.

One of the ladies I'm seriously considering as a nanny for my kid has done afro-centric grad studies. Shes superfucking intelligent and it's sad that people with that much college are having to muck through oddjobs to get by.

Also true story.

One time I went to Victoria (South TX) for vacation and nobody spoke english. I got so sick of it I vowed never to go back. Anyways on my way back I just couldnt wait to get home. Finally sitting at a light on my way into South Houston I was all like LOOK BLACK PEOPLE, WE ARE HOME, THANK GOD.

And this concludes my non-contribution to this thread. You are Welcome.

[Incurable]

It shouldn't matter anyway, as people of all tax brackets and social circles commit crimes. And anyone in any tax bracket/social circle can dress in ANY way (and yes I know those on welfare can't usually afford 5k dollar suits, but if someone wants something bad enough, there's always a way). Wardrobe is fucking irrelevant.

I completely agree that attire shouldn't matter in assessing a person or situation. This is also why I stipulated "May or may not..."

Unfortunately the reality is that, to many people, attire is the first impression. Before a person can hear another's tone, or consider their body language, their dress is what most tops the point that starts the ball rolling of judgment.

I offer that for most of my husband's friends, which are mostly active Army and Rangers, dress is of exceeding importance in how they judge someone. I am going to assume, perhaps wrongly, that this is also the case for police officers. Although I also understand that all parties, in authority, are taught to FULLY judge a situation before responding.

[diethx]

I completely agree that attire shouldn't matter in assessing a person or situation. This is also why I stipulated "May or may not..."

Unfortunately the reality is that, to many people, attire is the first impression. Before a person can hear another's tone, or consider their body language, their dress is what most tops the point that starts the ball rolling of judgment.

I offer that for most of my husband's friends, which are mostly active Army and Rangers, dress is of exceeding importance in how they judge someone. I am going to assume, perhaps wrongly, that this is also the case for police officers. Although I also understand that all parties, in authority, are taught to FULLY judge a situation before responding.

I disagree. I think police are trained to observe their appearance and take it into account along with many other factors about their person. I don't think their clothing would be of any more importance to a cop's judgement than would what they have to say or how they say it, or their body language, just as some examples.

And yeah I know you were taking a similar view point as me. That's why I was saying you shouldn't need to write three paragraphs to defend it since it was obviously a poor argument on WB's part.

[Deathravin]

By the time police arrived, Gates was already inside. Police say he quickly came outside to speak with an officer, who told him he was investigating a report of a break-in.

"Why, thank you for doing your job officer. As you can see from my driver's license and from the pictures throughout the house, I own this residence. I was just too tired to wait for a locksmith and decided I could fix the door tomorrow." Gates said, according to a police report written by Sgt. James Crowley.

The police apologized for the misunderstanding and left less than three minutes after arriving.

Rewritten to show how the conversation could have gone down.

Instead he was arrested for being a dick.

[AnticorRifling]

Needs more unprovoked brutality duh.

[Deathravin]

You know how women have to be strip-searched by women so they're somewhat sure nobody's getting a boner?

Maybe black people should only be policed by black people. Then nobody can say police are racist.

[radamanthys]

They should have tazered the motherfucker.

[AMUSED1]

They should have tazered the motherfucker.

You mean like this guy? http://uk.movies.yahoo.com/13072009/5/naked-man-casino-terminator-0.html

[Geshron]

They should have tazered the motherfucker.

Yes, totally tazered a guy who IS NOT BEING CHARGED. That wouldn't look bad at all. Get out much?

[AnticorRifling]

Yes, totally tazered a guy who IS NOT BEING CHARGED. That wouldn't look bad at all. Get out much? But if you tazer him get gets a charge. Oh shit electricity joke! Also I don't think Rada was serious.

[Daniel]

It's ok to be indignant when being questioned after having to force your way into your own home. It is NOT ok to act in a manner that causes your arrest in your own home. I always address the police with "yes sir" or "no ma'm" just based on past experiences when I was the baddest motherfucker alive.

Yea sorry. It was his home. The police officer should have left it alone when the guy showed him his ID with a picture on it.


Did the guy have a bad attitude? Maybe, but I'd imagine you'd be pretty pissed if you had to break into your house ater coming home from vacation, period. Then throw in the fact that one of his NEIGHBORS called the cops and I'd be even more pissed. That doesn't mean you should be hauled off to jail and I'd imagine you wouldn't be too happy about that either.

[TheEschaton]

Having worked for the Middlesex DA, and worked WITH Cambridge cops while working for the Middlesex DA, I've learned no ADA trusts police reports, and that Massachusetts cops, even in Cambridge, are pre-set in their feelings about blacks and hispanics. ESPECIALLY in Cambridge, they have an inferiority complex, I once heard a Cambridge cop refer to a black Harvard student as "an uppity black kid who thought he knew better than me" when discussing his case with another cop before court was in session. Police reports are ALWAYS written to their own favor because they know the weight given to them. Essentially, police reports are taken as true without any corroboration, whereas if the Defendant wants to prove them false, he has to provide some sort of proof that it is.

I once had a police report in front of me that said, "We got a call from an anonymous source who described a vehicle of X make and model, Y color, with NH plates, involved in a drug deal. We found a similar car cruising around. We followed it for 10 minutes, they stopped voluntarily, so we went to go check to make sure if they were okay, they were acting suspicious, we cuffed them and searched the car, found the heroin."

I thought, okay, open and shut case - and then the defense attorney filed a motion to dismiss based on an illegal search and seizure. I get all pissy, take it to motion, and go through basically what was said in the police report with the cop on the stand.

Defense attorney gets up:

Isn't it true that your "anonymous source" is a paid informant working with the police department?
(Hemming and hawing until cop admits, yes, it is).

Isn't it also true you witnessed no suspicious behavior on the part of the car in question?
(more stammering, until yes, it is).

Isn't it also true that you were following the car for 30 minutes?
Yes, eventually.

Isn't it also true that they didn't stop voluntarily, but you were following them so close that you waved for them to pull over so you could pass, but then instead pulled them over when they pulled over?
Yes, eventually. (He did this because cops know full well you can't activate your lights to pull over without probable cause, and the tip isn't enough, but you can check on a stopped vehicle for well-being and caretaking reasons and let it go from there.)

Isn't it true that you did this on a ONE LANE STREET, and used three cop cars all at once, carefully coordinating it so once the Defendant was stopped, he could not leave again?
Yes (never did he once tell me there was other cars there, just his).

Isn't it true that you asked for ID, both men in the car produced valid ID, you checked it, and it was okay?
Yes.

.....and so on and so forth til the judge was rolling his eyes, and the shit gets thrown out the window. This wasn't an abnormal case, this happened EVERY DAY (although since I was a student attorney, this is when it happened to me).

You can never trust a police report. I got pulled over a few months ago (I get pulled over regularly for being brown, as far as I can tell, cause I haven't sped since I realized cops can use anything against you). I was kind of in a hurry, I was attending an event at the law school with Senator Kerry, and I asked the cop, "I have somewhere to be soon, can you just check the ID and we can get on our way?"

So, this cop checks my ID, comes back and is like, "You know you have an unpaid parking ticket from June of 2007, right?" I thought about it, and responded that I had been in Manhattan for the summer of 2007, and my roommate must have gotten that ticket, but thanks for the notice, I'll get it taken care of.

Then he says, "You realize your car is registered in MA, but you gave me a NY license, right?" And I said yes, I do. He's like, "Well, if you're a resident of MA, you need an MA license." I said, no I don't, there is a special exemption for students who do not plan on staying in MA after their schooling. He argues with me, and I continuously assert my right that I don't need an MA license. Then writes me a ticket for driving unlicensed after a FORTY MINUTE stop.

I go into court a month or so later to take care of it, and I get handed a copy of his police report, which claims I was loud, argumentative, and generally dismissive, citing my request that it be hurried up, but "I could not see any evidence of other wrongdoing in plain sight, so I just wrote the ticket for driving unlicensed." Of course, the ticket was dismissed automatically because the law WAS on my side, and such an exemption exists for students.

So, what's the moral of this story: Had I been a white guy, I A) wouldn't have been pulled over for driving the speed limit in a nice neighborhood, B) offense wouldn't have been taken if I said "I have somewhere important to be, can this be hurried up,", and C) my behavior wouldn't have been labelled argumentative if I asserted my rights as a citizen.

The problem is here not that Gates argued, but that a much higher threshold of arguing is tolerated from white men than black men. Plain and simple. If Gates was white, the cops would have been more likely to see his behavior as "excusable", whereas since he was black, he was seen as disorderly. No one ever accuses white men of being "disorderly" for asserting their rights.

-TheE-

[Deathravin]

Yea sorry. It was his home. The police officer should have left it alone when the guy showed him his ID with a picture on it.


Did the guy have a bad attitude? Maybe, but I'd imagine you'd be pretty pissed if you had to break into your house ater coming home from vacation, period. Then throw in the fact that one of his NEIGHBORS called the cops and I'd be even more pissed. That doesn't mean you should be hauled off to jail and I'd imagine you wouldn't be too happy about that either.

Thats the problem, Daniel.
He refused to come outside. He refused to follow commands by a police officer. He didn't show them his ID until after he was an asshole about it.

If he had simply come outside when they asked, shown them his ID, been cordial, they would have left in minutes.

Instead he was an asshole, didn't follow instructions, and is now playing the race card.

[AnticorRifling]

Having worked for the Middlesex DA, and worked WITH Cambridge cops while working for the Middlesex DA, I've learned no ADA trusts police reports, and that Massachusetts cops, even in Cambridge, are pre-set in their feelings about blacks and hispanics. ESPECIALLY in Cambridge, they have an inferiority complex, I once heard a Cambridge cop refer to a black Harvard student as "an uppity black kid who thought he knew better than me" when discussing his case with another cop before court was in session. Police reports are ALWAYS written to their own favor because they know the weight given to them. Essentially, police reports are taken as true without any corroboration, whereas if the Defendant wants to prove them false, he has to provide some sort of proof that it is.

I once had a police report in front of me that said, "We got a call from an anonymous source who described a vehicle of X make and model, Y color, with NH plates, involved in a drug deal. We found a similar car cruising around. We followed it for 10 minutes, they stopped voluntarily, so we went to go check to make sure if they were okay, they were acting suspicious, we cuffed them and searched the car, found the heroin."

I thought, okay, open and shut case - and then the defense attorney filed a motion to dismiss based on an illegal search and seizure. I get all pissy, take it to motion, and go through basically what was said in the police report with the cop on the stand.

Defense attorney gets up:

Isn't it true that your "anonymous source" is a paid informant working with the police department?
(Hemming and hawing until cop admits, yes, it is).

Isn't it also true you witnessed no suspicious behavior on the part of the car in question?
(more stammering, until yes, it is).

Isn't it also true that you were following the car for 30 minutes?
Yes, eventually.

Isn't it also true that they didn't stop voluntarily, but you were following them so close that you waved for them to pull over so you could pass, but then instead pulled them over when they pulled over?
Yes, eventually. (He did this because cops know full well you can't activate your lights to pull over without probable cause, and the tip isn't enough, but you can check on a stopped vehicle for well-being and caretaking reasons and let it go from there.)

Isn't it true that you did this on a ONE LANE STREET, and used three cop cars all at once, carefully coordinating it so once the Defendant was stopped, he could not leave again?
Yes (never did he once tell me there was other cars there, just his).

Isn't it true that you asked for ID, both men in the car produced valid ID, you checked it, and it was okay?
Yes.

.....and so on and so forth til the judge was rolling his eyes, and the shit gets thrown out the window. This wasn't an abnormal case, this happened EVERY DAY (although since I was a student attorney, this is when it happened to me).

You can never trust a police report. I got pulled over a few months ago (I get pulled over regularly for being brown, as far as I can tell, cause I haven't sped since I realized cops can use anything against you). I was kind of in a hurry, I was attending an event at the law school with Senator Kerry, and I asked the cop, "I have somewhere to be soon, can you just check the ID and we can get on our way?"

So, this cop checks my ID, comes back and is like, "You know you have an unpaid parking ticket from June of 2007, right?" I thought about it, and responded that I had been in Manhattan for the summer of 2007, and my roommate must have gotten that ticket, but thanks for the notice, I'll get it taken care of.

Then he says, "You realize your car is registered in MA, but you gave me a NY license, right?" And I said yes, I do. He's like, "Well, if you're a resident of MA, you need an MA license." I said, no I don't, there is a special exemption for students who do not plan on staying in MA after their schooling. He argues with me, and I continuously assert my right that I don't need an MA license. Then writes me a ticket for driving unlicensed after a FORTY MINUTE stop.

I go into court a month or so later to take care of it, and I get handed a copy of his police report, which claims I was loud, argumentative, and generally dismissive, citing my request that it be hurried up, but "I could not see any evidence of other wrongdoing in plain sight, so I just wrote the ticket for driving unlicensed." Of course, the ticket was dismissed automatically because the law WAS on my side, and such an exemption exists for students.

So, what's the moral of this story: Had I been a white guy, I A) wouldn't have been pulled over for driving the speed limit in a nice neighborhood, B) offense wouldn't have been taken if I said "I have somewhere important to be, can this be hurried up,", and C) my behavior wouldn't have been labelled argumentative if I asserted my rights as a citizen.

The problem is here not that Gates argued, but that a much higher threshold of arguing is tolerated from white men than black men. Plain and simple. If Gates was white, the cops would have been more likely to see his behavior as "excusable", whereas since he was black, he was seen as disorderly. No one ever accuses white men of being "disorderly" for asserting their rights.

-TheE-

I can give just as many stories to the opposite. Where does that get us?

Except I would use statements I couldn't back up like "No one ever accuses white men of being "disorderly" for asserting their rights." or "...much higher threshold of arguing is tolerated from white ment than black men."

The officers I deal with treat everyone the same, respect is mirrored. Or is that just my perception as a white guy?

[Deathravin]

No one ever accuses white men of being "disorderly" for asserting their rights.

We're not scary when we do it... :cry:

[AnticorRifling]

We're not scary when we do it... :cry: I thought it was because we take them for granted and don't actually study our rights to know when they are being violated...

[Deathravin]

Hey. Every time I'm in the presence of a police officer, I just play dumb with everything.

"If you're living in MA, you need an MA driver's license"
"Oh really, officer. I'm sorry about that, I heard something about not needing to since I was just a student, they were obviously wrong. I'll get that taken care of tomorrow"

I may or may not do it, but does that mean I'm a bitch for not "keeping it real" as it were? Probably. But I also was pulled over 7 times before the age of 22, two of which were for me driving too perfectly because I saw a cop. And got just 1 ticket for doing 98 in a 70. The rest I treated the cop like he was the CEO of a company I worked for; he could do no wrong. And I got out of any tickets.


Just from my experience from watching the show speeders (from which I have seen maybe 1 or 2 'driving while black' pull-overs), the people that are dicks, get treated like dicks. The people that are nice, get treated nicely and usually can get out of getting a ticket.

[AnticorRifling]

Just from my experience from watching the show speeders (from which I have seen maybe 1 or 2 'driving while black' pull-overs), the people that are dicks, get treated like dicks. The people that are nice, get treated nicely and usually can get out of getting a ticket. Uh they probably wouldn't show all the instances of DWB that would be bad press.

[CrystalTears]

WTF? Bragging about arguing with cops? Wow. Keller and PB win this thread.

Just do what they say and it'll make it less painful. It's not even worth the time.

[AnticorRifling]

Just do what they say and it'll make it less painful. It's not even worth the time.
Just like prom.

[Deathravin]

Uh they probably wouldn't show all the instances of DWB that would be bad press.

I never said they were. And obviously a cop with a camera crew with him isn't going to pull that many people over for DWB. But still even with those two factors, I've seen it on that show (every time it's hilarious - "I'm going to pull this guy over... he uh... hmmm... stopped a little after the line of the stop sign... ya... that's what he did").

I'm not saying that being pulled over for DWB doesn't happen, in fact I believe it's pretty rampant. I was just saying that just from watching the show, no matter the race, gender, whatever if you're a dick, you're going to be treated like a dick and get a ticket. And if you're nice, you're going to be treated nicely and usually get out of a ticket.

[CrystalTears]

Just like prom.
STALKER!

Wait... was that you?

[Daniel]

Thats the problem, Daniel.
He refused to come outside. He refused to follow commands by a police officer. He didn't show them his ID until after he was an asshole about it.

If he had simply come outside when they asked, shown them his ID, been cordial, they would have left in minutes.

Instead he was an asshole, didn't follow instructions, and is now playing the race card.


So? He showed him the ID. Last time I checked you had the right to be an asshole, especially if you're in your own home. You can't claim they didn't know that. HE SHOWED HIM HIS ID.

After arresting a man in his own home, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the report itself is very suspect as is.

[Latrinsorm]

It is NOT ok to act in a manner that causes your arrest in your own home. I always address the police with "yes sir" or "no ma'm" just based on past experiences when I was the baddest motherfucker alive.Man, you must have gotten in a lot of trouble whenever you said no to a male police officer.

[Deathravin]

So? He showed him the ID. Last time I checked you had the right to be an asshole, especially if you're in your own home. You can't claim they didn't know that. HE SHOWED HIM HIS ID.

After arresting a man in his own home, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the report itself is very suspect as is.

Ah, but you do not have the right to refuse a command by a police officer.

[radamanthys]

Yes, totally tazered a guy who IS NOT BEING CHARGED. That wouldn't look bad at all. Get out much?

You REALLY need to find your sense of humour.

[EasternBrand]

Ah, but you do not have the right to refuse a command by a police officer.

Uh, what?

[RichardCranium]

Man, you must have gotten in a lot of trouble whenever you said no to a male police officer.

It's a lot more pleasant to do what they ask when they ask it and then carry on about my business.

[TheEschaton]

Ah, but you do not have the right to refuse a command by a police officer.


LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, yes you do.

[radamanthys]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, yes you do.

Yea, but you're an idiot if you expect not to be harassed for giving a cop a hard time.

[Deathravin]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, yes you do.

You have the right to shut the fuck up. You never have to say a word to a cop. But you still have to stop when he says stop, sit when he says sit, open the door when he says open the door. Or else it's like interfering with a police investigation or something.

I know you're a lawyer, and you certainly know the laws better than me. But from what I understood, that's why you have to comply with the sobriety test.

[diethx]

Do you have to bend over and grab your ankles if he commands you to? :D

[Bhuryn]

You have the right to shut the fuck up. You never have to say a word to a cop. But you still have to stop when he says stop, sit when he says sit, open the door when he says open the door. Or else it's like interfering with a police investigation or something.

I know you're a lawyer, and you certainly know the laws better than me. But from what I understood, that's why you have to comply with the sobriety test.

Not necessarily.

[radamanthys]

Y'all're talking ideal here, not real life.

In real life, the DA is on the side of the cops. The cops will harass anyone that gives them lip, regardless of race. And they'll get away with anything unless explicitly proven otherwise.

This is why I think police should wear voice recorders. I'm a huge fan of transparency.

[Daniel]

Ah, but you do not have the right to refuse a command by a police officer.

Yea...before you start spouting off about what you should or should not do, maybe you should brush up on your civil liberties.

[Deathravin]

Either way, Daniel and TheE, if you DO refuse a command, don't bitch that you're in jail.

[Daniel]

Y'all're talking ideal here, not real life.

In real life, the DA is on the side of the cops. The cops will harass anyone that gives them lip, regardless of race. And they'll get away with anything unless explicitly proven otherwise.

This is why I think police should wear voice recorders. I'm a huge fan of transparency.

Ideal life, working for the DA's office?

Is this like your "real life" where you get to hire people without even having a job yourself?

In real life, this officer is about to get his ass handed to him with good cause.

[TheEschaton]

You have the right to shut the fuck up. You never have to say a word to a cop. But you still have to stop when he says stop, sit when he says sit, open the door when he says open the door. Or else it's like interfering with a police investigation or something.

I know you're a lawyer, and you certainly know the laws better than me. But from what I understood, that's why you have to comply with the sobriety test.


No, no you don't.

If a cop is acting unreasonably, you have a right to assert your own rights, which are proactive, not reactive. A cop can't make you do anything unless formally arresting you.

Furthermore, I'm tired of this "automatic respect" thing for cops and judges (moreso for judges, though, since they're the ones I come to hate irrationally). If you're being an unreasonable douchebag, how come I still gotta respect you? Bullshit, especially when a judge can throw me in jail for contempt of court for refusing to go along with his insane BS.

[Mabus]

Ah, but you do not have the right to refuse a command by a police officer.
While you cannot interfere with or assault a police officer you can refuse any "command" that you are willing to be arrested for, and any you know to be unlawful.

I know I have made them bring out the dogs by refusing to open my trunk (you do not have to) and have been hit with a flashlight (and arrested) for asking why they were beating a man. In the first instance they said the dog "hit" on my car, but searched found nothing (most times they just threaten and then leave). In the second they tried to charge me with "interfering with a police investigation" but after I hired a lawyer they dropped all charges.

The only 3 things you ever need say to a police officer:
1) Do I need a lawyer?
2) Am I under arrest?
3) Am I free to go?

Maintain all of your rights.

Keep your mouth shut, and make them violate your rights.

[Daniel]

Either way, Daniel and TheE, if you DO refuse a command, don't bitch that you're in jail.

Okay, tool.

[EasternBrand]

You have the right to shut the fuck up. You never have to say a word to a cop. But you still have to stop when he says stop, sit when he says sit, open the door when he says open the door.

Apart from those first two sentences, that is completely wrong. You don't have to do dick. Now, if a cop has a warrant, or probable cause, he can arrest you and search you and throw you in the back of the car. And if he has reasonable suspicion, he can stop you and frisk you. But let's be clear: refusing to stop when he says stop, sit when he says sit, or open the door when he says open the door, does not, in and of itself, create either probable cause or reasonable suspicion. Of course, there might always be other circumstances in these situations that justify further intrusion, but as a rule of constitutional law, you certainly do have the right not to submit to a cop's orders.

[Mabus]

Either way, Daniel and TheE, if you DO refuse a command, don't bitch that you're in jail.
Why shouldn't someone bitch if they are unlawfully arrested?

This country was founded on individual rights, not on pseudo-respect for a police state.

[Latrinsorm]

It's a lot more pleasant to do what they ask when they ask it and then carry on about my business.It was a joke; you listed your responses as "yes sir" and "no ma'am"... work with me here...

[Back]

I have to agree. Producing two solid picture IDs is a trump. This is America and we have First Amendment rights. Let alone Second Amendment rights in this particular situation.

I have nothing against cops in general. I appreciate them. But I grew up in LA so...

[Xaerve]

This thread is hilarious. I love all the arguing without knowing any of the facts!

I know Dr. Gates very well, and he's without a doubt is not one to pull the race card without a lot of thought. He's talked several times at HKS and HLS concernign the abuse of framing issues as racial issues. I also know that he does have a serious medical condition currently, and he literally was/is not capable of putting on a huge dramatic scene that would warrant his arrest.

That being said, I also know one of the arresting officers involved and he is a known hot-head and in my opinion finally fucked with the wrong person. Racial profiling is really bad in Cambridge, as it is in most of Boston. The Cambridge cops love throwing their weight around, especially one of the arresting officers. I think the way this case plays out will be very interesting; but I think Gates and eventually the University will come on top here.

One final point: Anyone who lives or has lived in Cambridge should not get the HUPD confused with the CPD. The HUPD are a great group of men and women and do their respective jobs very well. The CPD is where all of the issues exist.

[TheEschaton]

DA's offices are actually rather varied. I've only ever worked in DA's offices in Boston and NYC, but in these two offices (300 and 500 ADAs) respectively, while most of them liked cops as people, I only ever met 1 or 2 out of the 50 or so I know who implicitly trusted cops in regards to how they recalled things. Too many ADAs get burned by trusting a cop's recollection.

Now, maybe in a less liberal place, where we don't automatically bow down to authority, the ADAs are like that. But don't assert your opinion of "real life" having never participated in it.

[Deathravin]

Look. I'm the first to admit that cops can be assholes. It's like it comes with the badge. But why give them shit? I've seen time and time again when you're nice to a cop, he's nice to you and you're on your way. When you're an asshole to the cop, he's an asshole to you and you get a ticket or get tossed in a cell.

I'd rather be on my way. You'd rather assert your rights and get tossed in a cell. It's just where we differ.

[Latrinsorm]

I'd rather be on my way.And when they come for you, there will be nobody left to speak out for you.

[Deathravin]

And when they come for you, there will be nobody left to speak out for you.

I'm a white male. Nobody's speaking out for me anyway.

[radamanthys]

DA's offices are actually rather varied. I've only ever worked in DA's offices in Boston and NYC, but in these two offices (300 and 500 ADAs) respectively, while most of them liked cops as people, I only ever met 1 or 2 out of the 50 or so I know who implicitly trusted cops in regards to how they recalled things. Too many ADAs get burned by trusting a cop's recollection.

Now, maybe in a less liberal place, where we don't automatically bow down to authority, the ADAs are like that. But don't assert your opinion of "real life" having never participated in it.

You don't think a city will try to ensure that a solid chunk of the tax base doesn't fly out the window in a lawsuit? You're dreaming.

[EasternBrand]

I'm a white male. Nobody's speaking out for me anyway.

There's always the New Saxons. Are you in the armed services?

[RichardCranium]

It was a joke; you listed your responses as "yes sir" and "no ma'am"... work with me here...

My b.

[Back]

I'd rather be on my way. You'd rather assert your rights and get tossed in a cell. It's just where we differ.

Wow. Isn’t that what we fought the British for to found this country?

[Bhuryn]

Wow. Isn’t that what we fought the British for to found this country?

Well it was more taxation without representation, but I guess we could stretch to that.

[Back]

Well it was more taxation without representation, but I guess we could stretch to that.

Damn right.

[radamanthys]

I hear that the cop walks around with this t-shirt on.

http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/letters/babies.jpg

[Deathravin]

Afrocentrist: Brothers, I saw him at the cafeteria this morning, he was recruiting for the CIA!
Black crowd: The CIA!
Moonbeam: I heard he injected all the meat with hormones before throwing it out the window!
Gay Leader: He is wearing brown shoes with a blue blazer. I mean, can you believe it? How hideous!

[Warriorbird]

I can give just as many stories to the opposite. Where does that get us?

Except I would use statements I couldn't back up like "No one ever accuses white men of being "disorderly" for asserting their rights." or "...much higher threshold of arguing is tolerated from white ment than black men."

The officers I deal with treat everyone the same, respect is mirrored. Or is that just my perception as a white guy?

Might also be due to your particular area.

[Warriorbird]

I hear that the cop walks around with this t-shirt on.

http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/letters/babies.jpg

I'm just curious what differentiates that from 'good white folks' gathering around in the South to tell "nigger jokes."

Oh wait...

[radamanthys]

I'm just curious what differentiates that from 'good white folks' gathering around in the South to tell "nigger jokes."

Oh wait...

Intent.

[ClydeR]

I just now realized who Henry Louis Gates Jr. is. I actually have his new Lincoln book (http://books.google.com/books?id=4KxM1GOWUhMC&dq=isbn:0691142343) on my wish list. He's a captivating speaker. I'm not sure that it's correct to call him, as the article did, "the nation's pre-eminent black scholar," but he is certainly among the most respected and beloved.

A lot of misconceptions about Lincoln's feelings for black people have crept into our collective mythology over the years. Gates' book -- which I have not yet read, but feel qualified to summarize anyway -- carefully lays out the available evidence in a way that will surprise many readers.

[waywardgs]

ClydeR, do you have this book?

I hear it's very good.

http://67.199.7.46/_media/imgs/articles/a413_talk.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

...book (http://books.google.com/books?id=4KxM1GOWUhMC&dq=isbn:0691142343)...

...Gates' book -- which I have not yet read, but feel qualified to summarize anyway...

Uh-oh. Lol'd at another Clyde post :embarrassed:

[radamanthys]

I suppose this is the inherent problem with crying racism (wolf) every time there's some sort of altercation between a black and a white.

If I were to say the real fault, it's the drug laws. They make the number of required officers much higher than necessary. So the force is watered down.

It's not the cops themselves, but the culture who gives the authority. And in our fear-based system, something's broken. Power corrupts, as they say. And we give them too much power.

[nub]

"I have heard of driving while black and even shopping while black but now but never have i seen an elephant fllllyyyyyyyyy!"

[ClydeR]

ClydeR, do you have this book?

No, not yet. It's on my wish list. But if I find out that Mr. Gates misbehaved in his altercation with the police, then I may decide to spend my hard earned money on a different book.

[Bhuryn]

I still don't believe ClydeR can read.

[Daniel]

I suppose this is the inherent problem with crying racism (wolf) every time there's some sort of altercation between a black and a white.

If I were to say the real fault, it's the drug laws. They make the number of required officers much higher than necessary. So the force is watered down.

It's not the cops themselves, but the culture who gives the authority. And in our fear-based system, something's broken. Power corrupts, as they say. And we give them too much power.

lolWhat?

The imbalances and injustices of our justice system, even if only perceived, do not stem from people "crying wolf".

[radamanthys]

lolWhat?

The imbalances and injustices of our justice system, even if only perceived, do not stem from people "crying wolf".

People don't give a noted academic the benefit of the doubt because of other 'race champions' (see cynthia mckinney, et al.), who have fucked up the issue from its reality.


Why is this about him being black and not about the cop being a dick, in general? Is there any proof that he is racist? Or do we just assume that all cops who inadvertantly arrest the wrong black man are racists?

[Geshron]

ClydeR, do you have this book?

I hear it's very good.

http://67.199.7.46/_media/imgs/articles/a413_talk.jpg



:rofl:

[Clove]

If a cop is acting unreasonably, you have a right to......assume that it's racially motivated. Near as I can tell the cop was being a dick and somehow you connect that to "it wouldn't have happened if I were white". Tell that to all the white males cops have been dicks to. It could also be that cops don't like curbside lawyers (even if they're actually law students) so they turn into dicks. Just sayin'.

Gates shouldn't have been arrested, the cops were being dicks.

[Daniel]

People don't give a noted academic the benefit of the doubt because of other 'race champions' (see cynthia mckinney, et al.), who have fucked up the issue from its reality.


Why is this about him being black and not about the cop being a dick, in general? Is there any proof that he is racist? Or do we just assume that all cops who inadvertantly arrest the wrong black man are racists?

First off, Let's be clear. African Americans have *never* been given the benefit of the doubt in our legal system.

Let's not forget that it was only a generation ago when it was still legal in our system to deny blacks equal protection under the law and I'm guessing this guy was born in a time when that was still the case.

So, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the reason why people assume cops are racist when they do things like this is because there is still ample statistical and anecdotal evidence showing widespread bias throughout all facets of our criminal justice system. Occam's razor and all.

[Parkbandit]

Gates shouldn't have been arrested, the cops were being dicks.

Gates should have just done what is asked.. calmly go to the door, show your ID and let the cops know what happened. Instead, he acted like some elitist asshole with a chip on his shoulder and took what should have been a 2-3 minute conversation and made it into an full blown drama lasting for hours.

[Daniel]

Gates should have just done what is asked.. calmly go to the door, show your ID and let the cops know what happened. Instead, he acted like some elitist asshole with a chip on his shoulder and took what should have been a 2-3 minute conversation and made it into an full blown drama lasting for hours.

The police should have just left after they were showed his ID proving that he lived there.

It's pretty silly to put all of the blame on one party when he was fully within his rights to do what he did.

[Parkbandit]

The police should have just left after they were showed his ID proving that he lived there.

It's pretty silly to put all of the blame on one party when he was fully within his rights to do what he did.


Of course it's his "right" to act like some indignant, self-important, pompous asshole... that wasn't my point.

He decided to take something that should have taken 2-3 minutes to sort out and swell it to a full blown drama... all because he felt these cops were beneath him and that he was far too important to have to deal with them directly.

I do have to wonder if your "outrage" would be the same had the Professor been white and the cops black. My opinion wouldn't change... would yours?

[Bobmuhthol]

I love all the descriptions about Gates' behavior, attitude, and beliefs. You're not him, and you were not there, please stop using made up shit as evidence against him.

[Parkbandit]

I love all the descriptions about Gates' behavior, attitude, and beliefs. You're not him, and you were not there, please stop using made up shit as evidence against him.

Since we have the account from the police, it's not making anything up. It is obvious that Gates didn't simply do what he was asked and that his behavior escalated this into a confrontation.

[Gan]

What are the rules for police officers who have been asked for identification? Don't they have to comply as well?
Depends on departmental policy. State/Federal laws dictate that a peace officer must demonstrate proof of official status (meaning they must show a badge when asked) unless they are under cover.

Badge numbers are on badges, name tags are normally part of the regular uniform. An officer that already has is badge on display really is not required reiterate it verbally if the person lacks the intelligence to read it.

If the officer was intentionally hiding his proof of identity, then thats a departmental matter.

[Rocktar]

...African Americans...

People that want to integrate into a society and be treated as equal don't self segregate based on naming convention, don’t use separatist descriptions of themselves and don’t follow so called “leaders” who make a living inciting division, violence and hate (Rev Jessie Jackson, Rev Al Sharpton, Rev Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr.). If you personally were born in this country as a citizen, then you are not an “African-American”. People that immigrated in their own lifetime and who went through naturalization can be considered “African-American”, otherwise, you are an American and ought to think seriously about continuing your personal, separatist, divisive, thinking. Anyone that takes the time and effort to distinguish themselves in such a manner is not looking to be seen as equal, is not seeking to fit in and is not seeking to end racial separation and the associated ignorance, violence and hate that goes along with it. Hyphenated Americans are themselves the perpetuators of racial bias and separation.

Begin with changing yourself so you can change others and be an example, end the separation in YOUR mind so you can help others to end it in theirs. Otherwise, just shut up because you ARE part of the problem when you perpetuate the separatist and exclusionist language and thus, thought associated with “Hyphenated” people. I grew up in the South and now, again, live in the South as a middle aged white man and I can tell you that really, carrying such an axe only serves to keep up the walls you so vocally seek to break down.

[Daniel]

Of course it's his "right" to act like some indignant, self-important, pompous asshole... that wasn't my point.

He decided to take something that should have taken 2-3 minutes to sort out and swell it to a full blown drama... all because he felt these cops were beneath him and that he was far too important to have to deal with them directly.

I do have to wonder if your "outrage" would be the same had the Professor been white and the cops black. My opinion wouldn't change... would yours?


I'm pretty sure I'd say someone shouldn't be arrested on their own property for no good reason regardless of the person's race.

[Daniel]

People that want to integrate into a society and be treated as equal don't self segregate based on naming convention, don’t use separatist descriptions of themselves and don’t follow so called “leaders” who make a living inciting division, violence and hate (Rev Jessie Jackson, Rev Al Sharpton, Rev Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr.). If you personally were born in this country as a citizen, then you are not an “African-American”. People that immigrated in their own lifetime and who went through naturalization can be considered “African-American”, otherwise, you are an American and ought to think seriously about continuing your personal, separatist, divisive, thinking. Anyone that takes the time and effort to distinguish themselves in such a manner is not looking to be seen as equal, is not seeking to fit in and is not seeking to end racial separation and the associated ignorance, violence and hate that goes along with it. Hyphenated Americans are themselves the perpetuators of racial bias and separation.

Begin with changing yourself so you can change others and be an example, end the separation in YOUR mind so you can help others to end it in theirs. Otherwise, just shut up because you ARE part of the problem when you perpetuate the separatist and exclusionist language and thus, thought associated with “Hyphenated” people. I grew up in the South and now, again, live in the South as a middle aged white man and I can tell you that really, carrying such an axe only serves to keep up the walls you so vocally seek to break down.

Please shut the fuck up.

[Tsa`ah]

A badge has never been indicative of respect, nor have the orders of police officers been the law to be obeyed without question.

I you can't understand that ... then there's nothing else to be said, because you never will.

[Gan]

Only Tsa'ah could make me fully agree with Keller.
:lol:


Just like prom.
/win

IMO, both sides should have walked away after the identification of the suspect(s) was confirmed as being lawful owners of the home.

I still dont know what 'color' the arresting officers were, and at this point, I dont care now that the circus has moved into the story.

[Rocktar]

Please shut the fuck up.

Don't be a hater because I am white and right.

[diethx]

First off, Let's be clear. African Americans have *never* been given the benefit of the doubt in our legal system.

http://theblacksentinel.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/oj_simpson_narrowweb__300x4720.jpg

[Gan]

LOL

[Parkbandit]

A badge has never been indicative of respect, nor have the orders of police officers been the law to be obeyed without question.

I you can't understand that ... then there's nothing else to be said, because you never will.

Is that why you argue with the cop everytime they pull you over?

I actually disagree with the age old saying of "Respect is earned". People should be respected until they prove they don't deserve it.

[Deathravin]

Gates should have just done what is asked.. calmly go to the door, show your ID and let the cops know what happened. Instead, he acted like some elitist asshole with a chip on his shoulder and took what should have been a 2-3 minute conversation and made it into an full blown drama lasting for hours.

Wait a second... I agree with PB about something.

I have to re-think my entire position now...

[Clove]

Gates should have just done what is asked.. calmly go to the door, show your ID and let the cops know what happened. Instead, he acted like some elitist asshole with a chip on his shoulder and took what should have been a 2-3 minute conversation and made it into an full blown drama lasting for hours.He should have. However he did show them his ID. There was no reason for them to be there after that or to arrest him. The cops were being dicks.


The police should have just left after they were showed his ID proving that he lived there.

It's pretty silly to put all of the blame on one party when he was fully within his rights to do what he did.It's a surreal thread. PB agrees with Keller. I agree with Daniel.

[Parkbandit]

Wait a second... I agree with PB about something.

I have to re-think my entire position now...

Don't be so frightened about being right. While I realize it rarely happens for you, take it from me who has far more experience with it... It's not that scary.

[Fallen]

I don't think showing a cop your ID negates everything else you've said and done prior, or during your (finally) submitting to a cop's lawful request. You can't be a complete dick for 10 minutes after a cop asks for your ID, present the ID, then sudden expect rainbows and sunshine afterwards.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

IMO, both sides should have walked away after the identification of the suspect(s) was confirmed as being lawful owners of the home.

I still dont know what 'color' the arresting officers were, and at this point, I dont care now that the circus has moved into the story.

This.

Sounds like there was asshattery on both sides.

[Tsa`ah]

Is that why you argue with the cop everytime they pull you over?

I actually disagree with the age old saying of "Respect is earned". People should be respected until they prove they don't deserve it.

Way to prove your comprehension issue.

[Parkbandit]

He should have. However he did show them his ID. There was no reason for them to be there after that or to arrest him. The cops were being dicks.

It's a surreal thread. PB agrees with Keller. I agree with Daniel.

True, but Gates brought upon himself. I don't know what happened after Gates showed his ID, but it's obvious that Gates initial behavior escalated the situation. Had he simply gone to the door and immediately shown his ID and gave the explanation, it would have been over in minutes.

[Clove]

True, but Gates brought upon himself. I don't know what happened after Gates showed his ID, but it's obvious that Gates initial behavior escalated the situation. Had he simply gone to the door and immediately shown his ID and gave the explanation, it would have been over in minutes.Citizens shouldn't have to be on their best behavior when dealing with the police to avoid arrest. Frankly I'd have been a little pissed off too if the cops showed up at my house demanding that I prove that I belonged in my own home. Gates should have behaved better and the police should have left after he provided his ID; they didn't have a reason to be there after that and they didn't have a reason to arrest him. This is made more obvious by virtue of the fact that they dropped the charges.

Oh and Tsa'ah, quit being an ass with the cops before one of them forgets he went to high school with you and tazes your ass.

[Parkbandit]

I don't think showing a cop your ID negates everything else you've said and done prior, or during your (finally) submitting to a cop's lawful request. You can't be a complete dick for 10 minutes after a cop asks for your ID, present the ID, then sudden expect rainbows and sunshine afterwards.

Exactly.

[Fallen]

Citizens shouldn't have to be on their best behavior when dealing with the police to avoid arrest. Frankly I'd have been a little pissed off too if the cops showed up at my house demanding that I prove that I belonged in my own home. Gates should have behaved better and the police should have left after he provided his ID; they didn't have a reason to be there after that and they didn't have a reason to arrest him. This is made more obvious by virtue of the fact that they dropped the charges.

Cops shouldn't have to tolerate belligerent behavior when they are investigating a legitimate incident report. Basically, this can go around and around. It all boils down to the fact of whether you think it is kosher to be a complete douche to a cop because you're, "Having a bad day". Either you believe cops should have to tolerate uncooperative and/or argumentative attitude without repercussions, or you don't.

The time for taking a stand for your rights ISN'T when dealing initially with the cops. If you were complying fully with the police officer's directions, yet you STILL felt like you were being pursicuted, I don't think ANYONE here will argue that you shouldn't take the matter up the legal chains of any and all resources available to you. Further, if you cross your T's and dot your god damn i's when dealing with cops that are being unlawful, you will have a MUCH stronger case against them.

[RichardCranium]

Citizens shouldn't have to be on their best behavior when dealing with the police to avoid arrest. Frankly I'd have been a little pissed off too if the cops showed up at my house demanding that I prove that I belonged in my own home. Gates should have behaved better and the police should have left after he provided his ID; they didn't have a reason to be there after that and they didn't have a reason to arrest him. This is made more obvious by virtue of the fact that they dropped the charges.

Oh and Tsa'ah, quit being an ass with the cops before one of them forgets he went to high school with you and tazes your ass.

They were doing their job. It's not like they were passing by at that moment and saw a black man shouldering his way into a home and started hassling him about it. They were responding to a call.

[Deathravin]

Citizens shouldn't have to be on their best behavior when dealing with the police to avoid arrest. Frankly I'd have been a little pissed off too if the cops showed up at my house demanding that I prove that I belonged in my own home. Gates should have behaved better and the police should have left after he provided his ID; they didn't have a reason to be there after that and they didn't have a reason to arrest him. This is made more obvious by virtue of the fact that they dropped the charges.

Oh and Tsa'ah, quit being an ass with the cops before one of them forgets he went to high school with you and tazes your ass.

Ya... How DARE they do their jobs... Jesus every time I see a Cop in my neighborhood, I try to shoot at them with my Uzi. I mean, shit, them trying to make my area safe from thieves wtf are they thinking?

I hope to god those cops have learned their lesson and won't ever come investingating when somebody says they see somebody breaking into my house ever again.


Of COURSE they dropped the charges, it was an arrest to assert themselves as the biggest badass, to try to teach Gates a lesson. This had nothing to do with any laws being broken, it's just what I've been saying. He was a dick to them, They were a dick to him.

But while his dickitry means yelling for no reason, their dickitry means getting tossed in jail for a night. Which MEANS... next time just stfu, swallow your pride (and anything else they give ya to swallow... And after you swallow mine you're gonna swallow Rooster's cause ya done broke his nose and I think he oughta have something to show for it.), and be civil to a person who puts their lives on the line every day so you can sleep a little more soundly.

[Clove]

It wasn't their job to arrest him because he was pissed off. If you get butt-hurt because you have to deal with an angry citizen and believe that's enough cause to arrest someone then you have no business being a cop.

It was their job to investigate. They did. After he showed them his ID their business there was done.

[Deathravin]

It wasn't their job to arrest him because he was pissed off. If you get butt-hurt because you have to deal with an angry citizen and believe that's enough cause to arrest someone then you have no business being a cop.

It was their job to investigate. They did. After he showed them his ID their business there was done.

A night in jail.

That's the difference between Clove's fantasy world and the real world.

[Clove]

I don't think showing a cop your ID negates everything else you've said and done prior, or during your (finally) submitting to a cop's lawful request. You can't be a complete dick for 10 minutes after a cop asks for your ID, present the ID, then sudden expect rainbows and sunshine afterwards.It doesn't negate anything, however it does prove that he had a lawful right to be there and there was no reason to arrest him. He shouldn't expect rainbows and sunshine, but he shouldn't expect to be arrested either.

[Daniel]

it was an arrest to assert themselves as the biggest badass, to try to teach Gates a lesson. This had nothing to do with any laws being broken, it's just what I've been saying. He was a dick to them, They were a dick to him.

.

The inevitible lawsuit will be to assert that they aren't the biggest bad asses but are there to protect and serve. It will be a nice million dollar (+) lesson for the cambridge police department I'm sure. All for being a dick. A shame really.

[Clove]

A night in jail.

That's the difference between Clove's fantasy world and the real world.Fuck you, I assure you I live in the real world. And after they settle the civil suit I'm sure the cops will be better grounded in the real world as well.

[Daniel]

Fuck you, I assure you I live in the real world. And after they settle the civil suit I'm sure the cops will be better grounded in the real world as well.

+1

[Warriorbird]

Bingo. Even if Gates was wrong the cop should've been a bit brighter. According to multiple Boston friends (and apparently Alok) these Cambridge guys tend to have a chip on their shoulder.

[Tsa`ah]

Oh and Tsa'ah, quit being an ass with the cops before one of them forgets he went to high school with you and tazes your ass.

...


Fuck you, I assure you I live in the real world. And after they settle the civil suit I'm sure the cops will be better grounded in the real world as well.

[MrTastyHead]

Being pissed off when cops show up after you break a door in is just plain stupid. Acting like your rights are being violated for having to prove that you live in the house you just broke in to is equally stupid. That said, being disrespectful or flat out rude is in no way grounds for arrest.

I wonder what the news story would be like if Gates found out that a neighbor had called the cops after seeing him breaking down the door and they didn't show up to investigate.

[Deathravin]

No way this dude wins any lawsuit against the department or state.

We'll see. And you can come back and rub it in my face if I'm wrong, but I'm saying right now. No way.

[Fallen]

No way this dude wins any lawsuit against the department or state.

We'll see. And you can come back and rub it in my face if I'm wrong, but I'm saying right now. No way.

Sadly, they will likely reach a settlement out of court just to shut the guy up and move on.

[Clove]

...Just make sure you post the YouTube when you're crying "Don't taze me bro!!!"

[Clove]

No way this dude wins any lawsuit against the department or state.

We'll see. And you can come back and rub it in my face if I'm wrong, but I'm saying right now. No way.Quoted for posterity.

[Parkbandit]

Sadly, they will likely reach a settlement out of court just to shut the guy up and move on.

Race still pays...

[Clove]

Really a white man would have no trouble sticking a civil suit to Cambridge over this. They would have arrested him under MGL 272 sec. 54 and the precedences allow for arresting someone who behaves in such a way that an ordinary person would feel offended or threatened. Yelling and cursing is not enough to qualify. I repeat if you're a police officer who can't handle a pissed off citizen without arresting him (Tsa'ah excepted I'm sure he's made most of the PC want to take a nightstick to him, let alone an officer) then he shouldn't be a cop.

[Tsa`ah]

You're far more creative in your trolling that PB. But the puppy love is the same.

[Parkbandit]

You're far more creative in your trolling that PB. But the puppy love is the same.

"That PB"?

OMG U DON'T NO HOW 2 READ!

I do have to agree with Clove though.. there would be nothing better than to see you eating through a straw after giving a cop a hard time.

[Clove]

You're far more creative in your trolling that PB. But the puppy love is the same.You can quit humping my leg now.

[Tsa`ah]

Why don't you hold hands with PB and get it all out, just own up to the trolling. It's the first step.

[Clove]

Why don't you hold hands with PB and get it all out, just own up to the trolling. It's the first step.Actually most of my posts in this thread (including the two that I mentioned your idiotic behavior) had nothing to do with you. It's just like everything else; you're far less significant than you realize.

[Tsa`ah]

That's it ... let it out.

[Latrinsorm]

Since we have the account from the police, it's not making anything up. It is obvious that Gates didn't simply do what he was asked and that his behavior escalated this into a confrontation.
It all boils down to the fact of whether you think it is kosher to be a complete douche to a cop because you're, "Having a bad day".I think it boils down to whether Director Gates did in fact act like "a complete douche". While PB assures us it is "obvious", there appear to be numerous grounds for skepticism.

[Fallen]

I think it boils down to whether Director Gates did in fact act like "a complete douche". While PB assures us it is "obvious", there appear to be numerous grounds for skepticism.

I tend to give the police the benefit of the doubt. Should the court decide differently, so be it.

[TheEschaton]

And like I said, you should never give the police the benefit of the doubt. Police are just like any other people, they'll tell the story the way it benefits them...in fact, like I said, they're more likely to skew it their own way because of this idiotic respect shown towards their writing, as if the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself had started writing police reports.

The fact of the matter is: if an old white man, in Cambridge, near Harvard, was putting his shoulder to the door, the neighbor would have gone over to help him get the door open. If the neighbor had called the cops, and the cops went to investigate, and said old white, from the inside of his home, was indignant and upset that the cops thought he was a ROBBER in his own home, they would have tolerated it much better. And they would have left immediately after being shown identification showing him to be the resident of the home.

The irony of this whole piece is that it is the conservative "my-home-is-my-castle-therefore-I-have-a-right-to-shoot-you" morons are the ones most upset about this when the roles are switched. It's the black man in the house, and the authoratative white males encroaching upon it. Switch it around, put it in Texas, and the man is lauded for shooting a guy for coming on his property.

I mean, in this very thread have been examples of how a white man can argue with cops AND GET AWAY WITH NOTHING, while a non-white man can argue with cops and get a ticket, despite living in a supposedly far more liberal haven.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

BTW, lest anyone claim I like anecdotal evidence, like Daniel said, this has been statistically shown in studies for the last 20 years.

[AnticorRifling]

The fact of the matter is: if an old white man, in Cambridge, near Harvard, was putting his shoulder to the door, the neighbor would have gone over to help him get the door open. If the neighbor had called the cops, and the cops went to investigate, and said old white, from the inside of his home, was indignant and upset that the cops thought he was a ROBBER in his own home, they would have tolerated it much better. And they would have left immediately after being shown identification showing him to be the resident of the home.

How exactly does someone say something like this and feel good about tossing the word "fact" in front of it?



The irony of this whole piece is that it is the conservative "my-home-is-my-castle-therefore-I-have-a-right-to-shoot-you" morons are the ones most upset about this when the roles are switched. It's the black man in the house, and the authoratative white males encroaching upon it. Switch it around, put it in Texas, and the man is lauded for shooting a guy for coming on his property.
-TheE-

You are forgetting that one of the keys to a good castle defense is not shooting your own soldiers.

As for the switch it around scenario, make sure you continue to focus on the race and not that one of them is a LEO because that obviously has no bearing.....

[AnticorRifling]

BTW, lest anyone claim I like anecdotal evidence, like Daniel said, this has been statistically shown in studies for the last 20 years. So has the benefits then harm then benefits then harm of eggs. It's all about who's paying for the studies :)

[Daniel]

So has the benefits then harm then benefits then harm of eggs. It's all about who's paying for the studies :)

I honestly don't know what the first part of this is supposed to mean. Since, I know you're usually a good guy I'll assume you made a typo.

To your second point, there have been numerous studies from all sides of the political spectrum, including the Department of Justice and several state governments pointing to systematic bias in the judicial system.

[CrystalTears]

I honestly don't know what the first part of this is supposed to mean. Since, I know you're usually a good guy I'll assume you made a typo.
Or that they keep changing their minds about whether eggs are beneficial or harmful to your health, depending on who conducts the studies.

[Daniel]

Or that they keep changing their minds about whether eggs are beneficial or harmful to your health, depending on who conducts the studies.

Oh. I've never heard that.

Anyway, those are two distinctly different studies.

[Clove]

Two different studies. Not his point.

[Latrinsorm]

Scientific studies are not as fallible as common knowledge dictates. Unfortunately, almost every study is communicated to the public by the news media, who are very rarely trained as scientists and are therefore very rarely qualified to summarize scientific findings.

[Parkbandit]

The fact of the matter is: if an old white man, in Cambridge, near Harvard, was putting his shoulder to the door, the neighbor would have gone over to help him get the door open. If the neighbor had called the cops, and the cops went to investigate, and said old white, from the inside of his home, was indignant and upset that the cops thought he was a ROBBER in his own home, they would have tolerated it much better. And they would have left immediately after being shown identification showing him to be the resident of the home.


:rofl:

http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/bitch-please-even-a-7-year-old-can-see-youre-full-of-shit-demotivational-poster.jpg

[TheEschaton]

Nice that you still know how to resort to pictures, PB.

[Parkbandit]

Nice that you still know how to resort to pictures, PB.

Pictures are worth 1000 words... and that picture said exactly what I felt when I read your post.

I mean, come on man... read what you posted and tell me you might not have worded it even close to properly. You even used the term "Fact" that made it even more hilarious.

[ClydeR]

I can't believe Obama answered a question about this in his press conference tonight. Normally, Obama can talk the horns off a billy goat. But he messed up big time by answering that question without even knowing all the facts.

[ClydeR]

Is it possible to be guilty of disorderly conduct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorderly_conduct) -- the crime for which Gates was arrested -- for being rude to police while inside your own home? The more I learn about this story, the more I think there's more to it than we know.

[Ashlander]

I can't believe Obama answered a question about this in his press conference tonight. Normally, Obama can talk the horns off a billy goat. But he messed up big time by answering that question without even knowing all the facts.

One of the few times I agree with a ClydeR post.

[Androidpk]

I say the cop was just doing his job and the professor was being a raging douchebag for no reason.

[Bobmuhthol]

What a terrible analysis.

[Parkbandit]

Gee, what a surprise. Obama claimed it was race... even though he admitted he didn't know all the facts.

Color me surprised.

[Androidpk]

Gee, what a surprise. Obama claimed it was race... even though he admitted he didn't know all the facts.

Color me surprised.


He must have seen the headlines on CNN!

[Daniel]

Gee, what a surprise. Obama claimed it was race... even though he admitted he didn't know all the facts.

Color me surprised.

Clearly he's just looking for an excuse for his own inadequacies.

[radamanthys]

The facts as I see them:

Cop rightfully investigates robbery. Gates is belligerent, Gates was being an asshole. Cop didn't like Gates being an asshole to him. Cop brings Gates in for being an asshole. Depending on where Gates was standing, it may or may have not been against the law to be an asshole in that circumstance.

In essence, this has nothing to do with race, other than that's what Gates was being an asshole about.

Whether the cop was right to take him in (whether Gates actually broke the law), is an entirely different issue. Typically the court would decide, but Gates was released.

The rest of the story: Someone told me (I don't have time to look it up) that Cop teaches diversity training (avoiding racial profiling) for Cambridge police.

In other other news, Obama was a fool for commenting in that fashion.

[Daniel]

In essence, this has nothing to do with race, other than that's what Gates was being an asshole about.



This is a "fact" based on what evidence?

[Androidpk]

This is a "fact" based on what evidence?

Based on all available information.

[AnticorRifling]

Based on all available information. We don't have, and probably won't ever have, all of the facts. The more I look at this the more I think that what really happened is probably somewhere in the middle of the two extremes both parties are holding on to.

[Androidpk]

Exactly, that's why I said available information.

[Daniel]

Based on all available information.

Gee. Thanks Genius.

[radamanthys]

This is a "fact" based on what evidence?

What evidence proves that he was being racist?

[Proxy]

After reading this thread I am struck with the sudden desire to see someone tie professor screw-loose down and drip boiling pig fat in his eye sockets. Odd...

[Dwarven Empath]

http://audio.weei.com/m/25432556/sgt-james-crowley-cambridge-police.htm

[Clove]

What evidence proves that he was being racist?Well, he was black wasn't he?

[Daniel]

What evidence proves that he was being racist?

The absence of proof does not make the opposite true.

[AnticorRifling]

What evidence proves that he was being racist?
The victim's word.

I still side with the officer on this one but that doesn't mean I think the officer was 100% in his duties. I don't know if it's racism, over reaction, or neither. I wasn't there. But having read everything I can form an opinion, which isn't fact or proof, just an opinion.

[Clove]

The absence of proof does not make the opposite true.I heard something once about a concept of "innocent until proven guilty". I can't really think of anything more opposite than innoncence and guilt, so yes, it kinda does.

[Daniel]

I heard something once about a concept of "innocent until proven guilty". I can't really think of anything more opposite than innoncence and guilt, so yes, it kinda does.

I also once heard of a process through which guilt and innocence was determined. As far as I'm aware that has not been conducted in this case. It's still early clove. Take your meds.

[landy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_officer

Obama wants to be his friend now.

[ClydeR]

Speaking on "The Early Show" Friday, Elizabeth Gates and Cambridge Mayor Denise Simmons, who is also black, talked about the possibility of bringing Gates and Crowley together to settle their differences.

Simmons said she has received a "positive response" from Gates, but has yet to hear back from Crowley. To which Elizabeth Gates said: "I don't think the officer is being at all cooperative."

More... (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/24/earlyshow/main5185675.shtml)

Should Gates and the cop get together and talk about their feelings? I say no. Sissies talk about their feelings. Our feelings should stay inside our minds, where God intended for them to be.

[CrystalTears]

I also once heard of a process through which guilt and innocence was determined. As far as I'm aware that has not been conducted in this case. It's still early clove. Take your meds.
And yet you're leaning on the side of guilt.

[Daniel]

And yet you're leaning on the side of guilt.

Really? where?

I've said specifically that he should have left when he produced the ID and that there is justification for people to think that race may have been a factor.

[CrystalTears]

Really? where?

I've said specifically that he should have left when he produced the ID and that there is justification for people to think that race may have been a factor.
And I'm just saying that you're assuming that it's based on race when nothing has been proven.

[Daniel]

And I'm just saying that you're assuming that it's based on race when nothing has been proven.

Uh...once again where have I said that? Please re-read what I just said.

[CrystalTears]

You've been going back and forth between guilt and race, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm getting confused with what your point is anymore.

I don't think it's based on race. You think there is reason to think so. Is that it?

[Daniel]

You've been going back and forth between guilt and race, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm getting confused with what your point is anymore.

I don't think it's based on race. You think there is reason to think so. Is that it?

At no point have I said that the police officer in question did what he did because of race.

I'm sorry you get confused easily.

[CrystalTears]

So then explain what you mean by race being a factor in this.

[Parkbandit]

You've been going back and forth between guilt and race, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm getting confused with what your point is anymore.

I don't think it's based on race. You think there is reason to think so. Is that it?

I'll help. The officers are white and Gates is black.. so obviously the officers were in the wrong and are racists. And Obama agrees.

[ClydeR]

And yet you're leaning on the side of guilt.

The only person charged with, or accused of, a crime was Gates. In the court of public opinion, there is no automatic presumption of innocence. You should feel free to presume, without any injury to your conscience, that Gates was guilty, that Gates' story about what really happened was false, and that the cop's story was true.

[Clove]

You've been going back and forth between guilt and race, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm getting confused with what your point is anymore.

I don't think it's based on race. You think there is reason to think so. Is that it?Other than the one at the top of his head, Daniel doesn't have a point.

They should have left when he produced his ID. They didn't. Other than the fact that Gates was black there is no reason to assume that race was a factor. There is no evidence. So until evidence is presented that race was a factor I'm going with "it wasn't".

[CrystalTears]

The only person charged with, or accused of, a crime was Gates. In the court of public opinion, there is no automatic presumption of innocence. You should feel free to presume, without any injury to your conscience, that Gates was guilty, that Gates' story about what really happened was false, and that the cop's story was true.
Everyone in this case overstepped their bounds.

[CrystalTears]

I'll help. The officers are white and Gates is black.. so obviously the officers were in the wrong and are racists. And Obama agrees.
There was a black cop on the scene... so again... still don't get it.

And Obama needs to shut the hell up. He needs to do his fucking job and not talk about shit he doesn't know all the facts about.

[Clove]

I also once heard of a process through which guilt and innocence was determined. As far as I'm aware that has not been conducted in this case. It's still early clove. Take your meds.Perhaps because there isn't enough evidence to proceed. Ever hear of a grand jury?

[Daniel]

So then explain what you mean by race being a factor in this.


Other than the one at the top of his head, Daniel doesn't have a point.

They should have left when he produced his ID. They didn't. Other than the fact that Gates was black there is no reason to assume that race was a factor. There is no evidence. So until evidence is presented that race was a factor I'm going with "it wasn't".

My point CT, fuck you clove, is that you can not rule out the prospect of racism in this case because of the documented prevalence of racism in America's criminal justice system.

That's not to say that he is racist, but it's silly to suggest that there is not a chance that he is.

[Daniel]

Perhaps because there isn't enough evidence to proceed. Ever hear of a grand jury?

Please shut the fuck up. A grand jury would not be convened for a civil matter, and
The department is putting together an independent panel to review the arrest, but Haas said he did not think the whole story had been told.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_officer

[Parkbandit]

That's not to say that he is racist, but it's silly to suggest that there is not a chance that he is.

Quoted for hilarity.

[Daniel]

Quoted for hilarity.

+1