Sarah Palin resigns governorship?

[Gan]

Alaska Gov. Sarah announced Friday that she was resigning her office later this month, a stunning decision that could free her to run for president more easily but also raises questions about her political standing at home.


Palin disclosed the surprise news Friday afternoon from her home in Wasilla with her husband, Todd, and Lt. Governor Sean Parnell, who the governor said would take over the state on Saturday, July 25th.


By not running for re-election, Palin liberates herself from the political constraints that come with running for president while still in elected office.


Leaving office at the end of the month, the former vice presidential hopeful will be able to travel the country more freely without facing the sort of repeated ethics inquiries she’s been fending off since returning to Alaska earlier this year.
In making her announcement, Palin spoke directly to those inquiries, saying she wouldn’t stand by as taxpayer money was spent to investigate her.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24497.html

[Numbers]

Even Jesus finds that hysterical.

http://universalheretic.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/laughing-jesus.jpg

[4a6c1]

Dont get too excited you dirty libs, she is quiting to persue higher office. :)

[Androidpk]

I heard it was so she could pose for Playboy.

[Geshron]

There is no legitimate reason under the sun aside from our adoration for celebrity and novelty culture that she should be the fucking PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

I will wait another 2 years before I say the same thing about Obama but believe me, he is just as guilty but at least has held higher offices previous. This shit is out of hand, you are a moron if you vote for her or anyone else based on novelty and nuance.

[Geshron]

I heard it was so she could pose for Playboy.

I back this.

[Mabus]

I will wait another 2 years before I say the same thing about Obama but believe me, he is just as guilty but at least has held higher offices previous.
Which ones were those?

I bet Palin resigned because she had an affair with a lady in Argentina. It is rather fashionable with governors these days.
;)

[Mabus]

I heard it was so she could pose for Playboy.
I'd buy that issue.

Seconded.

[thefarmer]

Dont get too excited you dirty libs, she is quiting to persue higher office. :)

There are Conservatives that don't want her to run either...

[Mikalmas]

There is no legitimate reason under the sun aside from our adoration for celebrity and novelty culture that she should be the fucking PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

I will wait another 2 years before I say the same thing about Obama but believe me, he is just as guilty but at least has held higher offices previous. This shit is out of hand, you are a moron if you vote for her or anyone else based on novelty and nuance.


He had held higher offices, yes. He was elected the first black president of the Harvard Law Review, graduated Manga Cum Laude with his Juris Doctorate and was a constitutional law professor. Elected to the Illinois State senate in 1996, and to the United States Senate in 2004. Named one of the "world's most influential people" by Time magazine in 2005.

Sarah Palin has a Bachelor's Degree. In journalism. After attending 5 or 6 different undgrad schools. And was the governor of the fourth smallest state (per capita), and by far the state with the least population density. She could see Russia from Alaska!! Her experience, other than governor of Alaska: she was a city councilmember and later mayor of Wasilla, population 9,780 (est).

Yeah.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I think she has to be delusional if she thinks she has a chance at the presidency.

[TheWitch]

There are Conservatives that don't want her to run either...

There's this.


I think she has to be delusional if she thinks she has a chance at the presidency.

And there's that.

And there's the desparate need for a viable third party.

[4a6c1]

There is no legitimate reason under the sun aside from our adoration for celebrity and novelty culture that she should be the fucking PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.


Ok thats fucking creepy. I said the same thing about OBAMA. No, really I did.

:-/


There are Conservatives that don't want her to run either...

Yeah, until their wives walk into the room.

[Ravenstorm]

Palin Huckabee in 2012! You know it's going to happen.

[Geshron]

Ok thats fucking creepy. I said the same thing about OBAMA. No, really I did.

:-/

Yeah I don't entirely disagree on that, either. It's just really maddening that she has such a substantial and legitimate chance at the office. It's really hard to fully fathom what exactly qualifies her for even the notion in her particular case.

[4a6c1]

Who cares. Then we will have two firsts in a row that didnt deserve office and nor were they qualified. But CHANGE IS NECESSARY, right???

[ClydeR]

Pure political genius. That's what this is. Pure genius.

Now she and Michael Jackson will be what all the news people are talking about over the July 4 holiday. At the risk of being repetitive, I'm going to say it again. Pure genius.

She has a good explanation too in her press release.


“I am determined to take the right path for Alaska even though it is not the easiest path,” said Governor Palin after the announcement. “Once I decided not to run for re-election, I also felt that to embrace the conventional ‘Lame Duck’ status in this particular climate would just be another dose of ‘politics as usual,’ something I campaigned against and will always oppose. It is my duty to always protect our great state. With that in mind, my family and I determined that it is best to make a difference this summer, and I am willing to change things, so that this administration, with its positive agenda, its accomplishments, and its successful road to an incredible future, can continue without interruption and with great administrative and legislative success. I look forward to helping others – to fight for our state and our country, and campaign for those who believe in smaller government, free enterprise, strong national security, support for our troops, and energy independence.”

More (PDF)... (http://media.adn.com/smedia/2009/07/03/12/Palinpressrelease.20427.source.prod_affiliate.7.pd f)

But I think the Politico explanation is also true. She is definitely running for higher office! Knowing that, I'm going to really enjoy this July 4th weekend.

[ClydeR]

Palin Huckabee in 2012! You know it's going to happen.

That's what I'm hoping too. And this move makes it more likely. It was pure genius.

[Kembal]

Ok, Michael Jackson died and then Sarah Palin resigns. Mark Sanford's getting divine intervention in trying to keep his affair from being the top news story, despite his insane attempt to keep it there with another interview. (Jon Stewart called this yesterday.)

As for Palin, honestly, when I first turned on the TV and was on CNN, I thought she might be declaring secession....I really didn't expect her to resign. She's got some bad (or no) political advisers.

[Ashlander]

If she somehow won it'd be fun to see how the traditional Islamic countries handled her.

[Wesley]

He had held higher offices, yes. He was elected the first black president of the Harvard Law Review, graduated Manga Cum Laude with his Juris Doctorate and was a constitutional law professor. Elected to the Illinois State senate in 1996, and to the United States Senate in 2004. Named one of the "world's most influential people" by Time magazine in 2005.

Sarah Palin has a Bachelor's Degree. In journalism. After attending 5 or 6 different undgrad schools. And was the governor of the fourth smallest state (per capita), and by far the state with the least population density. She could see Russia from Alaska!! Her experience, other than governor of Alaska: she was a city councilmember and later mayor of Wasilla, population 9,780 (est).

Yeah.

If only there was some sort of other massively underqualified example we could use to demonstrate why we might all have to be afraid...


Oh wait..

http://librivermis.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/george-w-bush.jpg

[4a6c1]

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv183/rojodisco/l_8234f29170ba39999c38d7f995b63f8b.jpg

bwahahaha

[Geshron]

Which ones were those?

I bet Palin resigned because she had an affair with a lady in Argentina. It is rather fashionable with governors these days.
;)

I can't even answer this. I hope you aren't serious.

[ElvenFury]

Italics means that he's kidding.

[ElvenFury]

If only there was some sort of other massively underqualified example we could use to demonstrate why we might all have to be afraid...

I take it that you wouldn't vote for Palin? But what about a Palin/Rex ticket?!

http://metro.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/15/dinosaurpalin_455x400_2.jpg

[Rocktar]

If only there was some sort of other massively underqualified example we could use to demonstrate why we might all have to be afraid...


Oh wait..

http://librivermis.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/george-w-bush.jpg

More likely:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_02/clintonAD2505_468x448.jpg

[Stretch]

More likely:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_02/clintonAD2505_468x448.jpg

Yeah, years of sustained economic growth and an untarnished international reputation (Bosnia aside) sure did wear on everyone...

[nub]

I have not been affected negatively by any president since I have been born. Although, I am not a fan of universal healthcare, that might affect me. Did I say might? IT WILL AFFECT ME.

And I think someone purposely killed Michael Jackson the same day the environmental bill which will affect us dearly was passed. It was not talked about at all the same day, except on some articles and barely on news at night. FUCK HIGHER TAXES, I will not be able to afford my house payments (I think) either way, higher taxes will result in more foreclosures, ask me why later, or now if you'd like.

[Gan]

LOL

[TheEschaton]

I'm sorry, Bill Clinton had nothing, came from nothing, worked his way thru Yale Law and fucking OXFORD on pure brains and charisma alone, and became a player in national politics while being the governor of ARKANSAS.

That you would suggest he was somehow "not qualified" as a politician to be President is ludicrous and shows how little you grasp anything of concreteness beyond the bright shiny balls in your immediate vicinity.

-TheE-

[Back]

This is what the press calls burying bad news. Announcement on a three day weekend? By Monday everyone will have forgotten.

My guess is something naughty is being buried.

[Tsa`ah]

Dont get too excited you dirty libs, she is quiting to persue higher office. :)

We can only hope ... political humor has been dead for almost 6 months. Anyone else I'd almost worry about, but she doesn't have the mental capacity to become a contender in just two years, though the laughs will be priceless.

Of course she is resigning to pursue a 2012 bid ... just don't believe the bullshit about being "tied down" to an existing office.

She's flying the coupe before any one of a landslide of ethics complaints and charges can stick.

Let's face facts though, Newt is already building steam for the primary season (along with Huck) ... she's got no chance.

[Daniel]

Dont get too excited you dirty libs, she is quiting to persue higher office. :)

Lol. This is the best political manuever since she was picked to be the vice presidential candidate.

I'm sure "us dirty libs" are really scared right now.

[ElanthianSiren]

Palin/Huckabee 2012!

Somehow... I just don't think he'd sit for that.

[4a6c1]

She's flying the coupe before any one of a landslide of ethics complaints and charges can stick.



I was curious about this so I looked for the details.

It is obvious character assassination. Here are the funniest ones, for your entertainment.




Dec. 18, 2008: Complaint contended Palin misused funds of the Alaska Seafood Marketing Institute, a quasi-government entity, to promote her political ambitions with advertisements featuring her, violating ethics law. The ads promoting Alaska seafood ran in the National Fisherman last year through November. Dismissed Jan. 12 after a personnel board investigation determined Palin's only involvement was to give permission to use her image long before she was named McCain's running mate.

Jan. 12: Complaint alleging interference in a job hiring was filed under the name of Edna Birch, a busybody character on the British soap opera Emmerdale. Palin's attorney, Thomas Van Flein, said no one by that name could be found living in Alaska and the filer refused to use a real name, so the complaint was dismissed Feb. 20.

March 24: Contended conflict of interest by Palin because she wore Arctic Cat logo gear during the Tesoro Iron Dog snowmobile race. Palin's husband, Todd, is sponsored by Arctic Cat in the race. Filed by Linda Kellen Biegel, a Democratic blogger. Dismissed June 2.





^Yeah, she's definately afraid these will stick.

[Back]

Uh, there might be something else than that.

Resign at the height? Something else is up.

[BriarFox]

According to her unfathomable excuse for logic, she's resigning to "effect positive change outside the government." Being outside the government and preparing to run for president in 3 years seem to be somewhat conflicted. Despite the lack of coherence in her announced plans, if she were to run for office, I highly doubt that the benefit of time she gains from no longer being governor will do anything to offset the penalties she's incurring by bugging out on her elected post and the people of Alaska.

This resignation will do nothing other than make her look irresponsible and even less fit to lead than she looked in 2008. The one "qualification" she had for the presidency was that she had executive experience, and she's just shot herself in the foot by giving it up hamhandedly. She seems to have made the decision on such a spur-of-the-moment impulse that even her Lt. Gov., who'll be the new governor, had no idea what she was going to do until the day before her announcement.

Also, I think someone needs to explain to her what "lame duck" status actually is. It doesn't apply when you have 18 fricking months left in office!

[ElanthianSiren]

Unless she's resigning to run for a senate seat the GOP considers weak (like say a democrat in Alaska or an empty seat). This dampens questions about "experience" should she choose to run for the president or vice president in the future.

[bluesmith]

This is what the press calls burying bad news. Announcement on a three day weekend? By Monday everyone will have forgotten.

My guess is something naughty is being buried.

I'm seeing rumours tweeted that her house was actually built for her at n/c in exchange for awarding a 13m contract for building the Wasilla sports complex. Interesting to see if these one checks out. (Nothing in the MSM yet so it could be total BS, but provocative story at least!

[Tsa`ah]

I was curious about this so I looked for the details.

It is obvious character assassination. Here are the funniest ones, for your entertainment.
....

^Yeah, she's definately afraid these will stick.

You cherry picked three complaints that anyone would consider frivolous and ignored the rest.

The ethics complaints won't stop, new complaints are likely to be added ... essentially dogging her until she hits a term limit, is voted out of office, or resigns.

She may be the dumbest person in politics, but she's not that dumb. She admits that continuing to serve her current term will be tantamount to a lame duck term (because she knows there's no way in hell that she'll be elected for a second term).

It's just sad that you and Palin both seem to think there's political viability after Alaska. The laughs will be worth it though.

[Back]

I'm seeing rumours tweeted that her house was actually built for her at n/c in exchange for awarding a 13m contract for building the Wasilla sports complex. Interesting to see if these one checks out. (Nothing in the MSM yet so it could be total BS, but provocative story at least!

Rumor rumor. I heard she was fucking the Russians. Not that I believe it, just what I heard.

And you know how that goes.

[4a6c1]

You cherry picked three complaints that anyone would consider frivolous and ignored the rest.

The ethics complaints won't stop, new complaints are likely to be added ... essentially dogging her until she hits a term limit, is voted out of office, or resigns.

She may be the dumbest person in politics, but she's not that dumb. She admits that continuing to serve her current term will be tantamount to a lame duck term (because she knows there's no way in hell that she'll be elected for a second term).

It's just sad that you and Palin both seem to think there's political viability after Alaska. The laughs will be worth it though.


Of course I cherry picked. Those were the only funny ones.

....

Look. I like Palin, obviously. I like what she stands for. Show me a lib female in politics who is all about family and I will join the bandwagon. Thats really the most important thing to me. Find me the unicorn!

All of the unfunny ones I didnt post also seemed like sad attempts at character assassination....hence their dismissal as serious claims.

I'm betting she knows the ethics complaints wont stop. That is the nature of character assassination. In her own words she said she was leaving to keep the people of Alaska from having to pay for her defense against the ethics complaints.

[Tsa`ah]

Of course I cherry picked. Those were the only funny ones.

....

Look. I like Palin, obviously. I like what she stands for. Show me a lib female in politics who is all about family and I will join the bandwagon. Thats really the most important thing to me. Find me the unicorn!

So you're under the impression that libs, particularly female, aren't about family ... or is it just that their political stance isn't totally consumed by family?


All of the unfunny ones I didnt post also seemed like sad attempts at character assassination....hence their dismissal as serious claims.

No claim has been dismissed because of a lack of seriousness, but rather dismissed based on validity or substance. Which is why claims are often re-written with a different thrust and re-submitted.


I'm betting she knows the ethics complaints wont stop. That is the nature of character assassination. In her own words she said she was leaving to keep the people of Alaska from having to pay for her defense against the ethics complaints.

Umm ... one of the complaints is in reference to a fund set up to defer defense costs. Which begs the question of character assassination. She assassinates her own character by making such claims. The people do not pay for her defense ... that would be another ethics violation.

[Numbers]

Dunno if this is true or not. Don't really care, either. Wouldn't put it past her, though.


http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/03/palin-hockey-arena-scandal/

Max Blumental reports on The Daily Beast that Sarah Palin may have quit her job (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/03/palin-resign/) today because she was trying to avert a major, yet-to-be-disclosed corruption scandal (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7280). The gist of the rumor is that an Alaska building company called Spenard Building Supplies (SBS) was awarded a contract by Palin to build a hockey arena in Wasilla, AK, and in return, SBS helped construct Palin’s home (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-03/did-a-scandal-sink-the-uss-palin/?cid=hp:mainpromo2):
Many political observers in Alaska are fixated on rumors that federal investigators have been seizing paperwork from SBS in recent months, searching for evidence that Palin and her husband Todd steered lucrative contracts to the well-connected company in exchange for gifts like the construction of their home on pristine Lake Lucille in 2002. The home was built just two months before Palin began campaigning for governor, a job which would have provided her enhanced power to grant building contracts in the wide open state.
SBS has close ties to the Palins. The company has not only sponsored Todd Palin’s snowmobile team, according to the Village Voice’s Wayne Barrett, it hired Sarah Palin to do a statewide television commercial in 2004.
Though Todd Palin told Fox News he built his Lake Lucille home with the help of a few “buddies,” according to Barrett’s report, public records revealed that SBS supplied the materials for the house. While serving as mayor of Wasilla, Sarah Palin blocked an initiative that would have required the public filing of building permits—thus momentarily preventing the revelation of such suspicious information.
Just months before Palin left city hall to campaign for governor, she awarded a contract to SBS to help build the $13 million Wasilla Sports Complex. The most expensive building project in Wasilla history, the complex cost the city an addition $1.3 million in legal fees and threw it into severe long-term debt. For SBS, however, the bloated and bungled project was a cash cow.
Alaska bloggers have reported (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8495840) in recent weeks that “a long simmering embezzelment/IRS scandal (http://shannynmoore.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/palins-ethical-challenges-continue/) is still being looked at by the feds.” In her press conference today, Palin asked the public to “trust me with this decision and know that it is no more politics as usual (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/07/03/palins_remarks_in_stepping_dow.html?wprss=44).” But she also bemoaned “political operatives” who have “descended on Alaska” to investigate “all sorts of frivolous ethics violations.” Palin said this “politics of personal destruction” was one of the key motivating factors behind her decision today.

[Tisket]

I think she was banging someone other than her husband and someone found out. Hey, someone needs to break that glass ceiling. We need a female governor sex scandal!

[4a6c1]

So you're under the impression that libs, particularly female, aren't about family ... or is it just that their political stance isn't totally consumed by family?



Yes I am under that impression because I've never heard of one. I was actually hoping you would prove me wrong with a list or something. (Also important but not necessary: small government, gun rights, pro-life.) Ok, Tsa'ah, find me a bandwagon...ready, set, go!

And I'm not totally convinced that policy from an individual consumed by family is a bad thing. People with children watching tend to behave more responsibly. Errr...At least in public. :D


I think she was banging someone other than her husband and someone found out. Hey, someone needs to break that glass ceiling. We need a female governor sex VIDEO!

fixed

[Androidpk]

I think she was banging someone other than her husband and someone found out. Hey, someone needs to break that glass ceiling. We need a female governor sex scandal!


lol

I was just going to post that she's pregnant and her husband isn't the father of it.

[Numbers]

I admit it, I've been tapping that hot MILF ass for the past few months.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ct1hOaxftnk/SMfyZ3cK9hI/AAAAAAAAA8Y/U6dzsLVnu24/s320-R/palin_milf.jpg

[Tsa`ah]

Yes I am under that impression because I've never heard of one. I was actually hoping you would prove me wrong with a list or something. (Also important but not necessary: small government, gun rights, pro-life.) Ok, Tsa'ah, find me a bandwagon...ready, set, go!

If you think the left side of the fence lacks politicians of the family persuasion, I can only assume you fall for empty rhetoric.

There's a difference between using one's family as a political prop and considering family when it comes to elected office.

The truth of the matter is that no family or value set is identical. To campaign on an absolute. when it comes to family, is empty ... short sighted ... and negligent in a culturally diverse society.

As for the rest of your standards ...

Pro-life, the abortion issue, is a distraction. If abortion is an issue with you ... your candidates should be those who focus on the cause to the problem, poverty, education, health care, social services, adoption and foster care reform.

Gun rights = 2nd amendment = constitutionalism. This indicates your selection in any candidate should be the selection of the one candidate who understands and believes in constitutional rights. Palin has proved herself to be woefully ignorant of the constitution and individual rights ... including her own.

Gun rights also indicates a person who recognizes cultures born of poverty, lack of education and healthcare. A person who recognizes crimes committed out of the necessity to survive and or provide and strives to eliminate that divide ... thus reducing the necessity to legislate a limit to an individual's constitutional right.

Small government. This indicates a person who understands the government's role and focuses on reducing the societies need of government. Again, this is addressing issues of poverty, education, and health care. Small government is not tax cuts, pork spending, and increasing the size of government ... all of which Palin partnered with.


And I'm not totally convinced that policy from an individual consumed by family is a bad thing. People with children watching tend to behave more responsibly. Errr...At least in public. :D

Policy consumed by one core set of "family" values is one of negligence and ignorance simply because those values aren't even communal.

All in all, it sounds like you want a blue dog ... which is decisively not Palin.

[4a6c1]

The truth of the matter is that no family or value set is identical. To campaign on an absolute. when it comes to family, is empty ... short sighted ... and negligent in a culturally diverse society.



I am not part of a culture where family values are considered empty. That is not the America I live in and that is not the America I serve. The family unit is a universal commonality in this country and protecting it is what everyone has in common. We dont have to be identical to want the same things for our kids. Happiness, health and a good education....right?

Tsa'ah I think it is extremely jaded to assume that everyone in politics with a family is using them as a front. Am I naive in that I want to believe those children actually mean something to that politician and doing whats right for the family is their basis for state service? I dont think so.

I wholeheartedly disagree with just about everything else you mentioned and cant even see from your perspective enough to continue to debate those issues, sorry.

[Stretch]

Luckily, the 19th Amendment only gives them the right to vote, not run for office.

One would think that the reminder that Hillary got about that would be enough to dissuade future women from wasting their time. I guess that inability to learn why it took Mrs. Palin six years to finish school...

[Back]

OH! ZING!

[Warriorbird]

Dont get too excited you dirty libs, she is quiting to persue higher office. :)

I'd be totally glad if she did something that stupid.

Palin/Sanford 2012!

[ClydeR]

Max Blumental reports on The Daily Beast that Sarah Palin may have quit her job (http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/03/palin-resign/) today because she was trying to avert a major, yet-to-be-disclosed corruption scandal (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7280).


Ratcheting up her offensive against the news media, Gov. Sarah Palin’s attorney threatened Saturday to sue mainstream news organizations if they publish “defamatory” stories relating to whether Palin is under federal investigation.

In an extraordinary four-page letter, Alaska-based attorney Thomas Van Flein warns of severe consequences should speculation that until now has largely been confined to blogs about whether Palin embezzled funds in the construction of a Wasilla, Alaska, sports arena find its way into print.

“This is to provide notice to Ms. Moore, and those who re-publish the defamation, such as Huffington Post, MSNBC, the New York Times and The Washington Post, that the Palins will not allow them to propagate defamatory material without answering to this in a court of law,” Van Flein warned, citing Alaska liberal blogger Shannyn Moore.

More... (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24521.html)

I applaud Palin's attorney for writing this letter. Literally. I'm applauding, except when I have to stop to type this.

Unfortunately, many liberal "news" organizations have started reporting on the letter, which just brings up the issue again.

[Fallen]

I would vote for Clinton before Palin.

[Stanley Burrell]

The thing about Palin is she's kind of ... A bit of a completely totally unstable bitch. Which isn't much of a problem; I mean, most women are. She sort of takes the cake, the pie and the ... cakepie? Whatever.

[BriarFox]

The thing about Palin is she's kind of ... A bit of a completely totally unstable bitch. Which isn't much of a problem; I mean, most women are. She sort of takes the cake, the pie and the ... cakepie? Whatever.

I suppose that description works. I just thought she was vindictive, uneducated, immoral, thoughtless, superficial, contrived, narcissistic, and ineloquent.

[Fallen]

I suppose that description works. I just thought she was vindictive, uneducated, immoral, thoughtless, superficial, contrived, narcissistic, and ineloquent.

Ineloquent?? Which rambling, incoherent basketball anology were YOU listening to?


"Let me go back quickly to a comfortable analogy for me, and that’s sports. Basketball. And I use it because you are naïve if you don’t see a full court press from the national level picking away right now. A good point guard, here’s what she does. She drives through a full court press, protecting the ball, keeping her head up because she needs to keep her eye on the basket and she knows exactly when to pass the ball so that the team can win. And that is what I’m doing. Keeping our eye on the ball."

[Stretch]

rofl @ women's basketball

A good point guard, here's what she does- exchanges her jersey for an apron, makes a steak, and does not open her mouth again until it's time for bed.

[Parkbandit]

If she did this to further her political career, she's an idiot. Who the fuck would want to vote for someone who quit her job before it's done?

I think some scandal is about to be brought to light.. and she wanted to find some shade from the light that's about to be under.

PS - She's so hot. I hope it's Playboy...

[Androidpk]

PS - She's so hot. I hope it's Playboy...

I hope it's Hustler.

[Gan]

Can you imagine what it would do to ClydeR if she did pose?

:lol:

[Androidpk]

He would claim that she was kidnapped by radical liberalists and the pictures were taken and sold without her permission.

[Gan]

And that it was windy outside...

[Gan]

The FBI, responding to roiling suggestions online and on cable that Sarah Palin's abrupt resignation may have been triggered by an inquiry into a construction project in Wasilla -- or some other federal investigation -- has stated publicly that she's in the clear, the Anchorage Daily News reports (http://www.adn.com/palin/story/854318.html).

"We are not investigating her,” FBI spokesman Eric Gonzalez told the paper. "Normally we don’t confirm or deny those kind of allegations out there but by not doing so it just casts her in a very bad light. There is just no truth to those rumors out there in the blogosphere.”

Palin had hit back hard at the suggestions, with her lawyer calling (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24521.html) them "defamatory" in a long letter to the media.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/

[Kuyuk]

maybe the CIA is investigating!!11

K.

[Gan]

The KGB. Putin wants to poke her in the pootie.

[Tsa`ah]

I am not part of a culture where family values are considered empty.

No where did I suggest that it was. What I said was using family values as a political platform is "is empty ... short sighted ... and negligent in a culturally diverse society".


That is not the America I live in and that is not the America I serve. The family unit is a universal commonality in this country and protecting it is what everyone has in common.

We don't protect "the family", we protect "the citizens" and their "rights".


We dont have to be identical to want the same things for our kids. Happiness, health and a good education....right?

So what you're saying is that you would vote for Palin despite what every parent wants for their children.


Tsa'ah I think it is extremely jaded to assume that everyone in politics with a family is using them as a front.

That's not what I said. Maybe I should have been more specific .. Palin uses/used her family as a political prop. As a general rule of thumb, on my part, the moment a politician uses "Family values" as a political stance, I generally tune it out simply because values aren't universal, especially those pertaining to family.


I wholeheartedly disagree with just about everything else you mentioned and cant even see from your perspective enough to continue to debate those issues, sorry.

What does that even mean? That you think criminalizing abortion will solve the issue ... overturn RvW? That the constitution is optional reading material for those seeking elected offices? Or that small government is nothing more than tax cuts?

[Parkbandit]

That's not what I said. Maybe I should have been more specific .. Palin uses/used her family as a political prop. As a general rule of thumb, on my part, the moment a politician uses "Family values" as a political stance, I generally tune it out simply because values aren't universal, especially those pertaining to family.



So I assume you've done the same with the Obamas.. or do you only use that excuse with Republicans? Not a big leap there, that you tune them out.. since you don't care what they have to say to begin with.

[4a6c1]

What does that even mean? That you think criminalizing abortion will solve the issue ... overturn RvW? That the constitution is optional reading material for those seeking elected offices? Or that small government is nothing more than tax cuts?

Lol. You're addicted to debate!! Yes, No, No.

I've pulled out of the discussion as far as Palin is concerned. There is no commonality between us. Nothing to debate. You see space, I see time. Neither one of us needs persuading and we are both quite comfortable in what we believe. I am predator, you are alien. If we made a movie it would have no plot. We have both stated all our opinions to the greatest extent and continuing discussion would break the universe.

Dont break the universe Tsa'ah, dont do it!!

[ClydeR]

I never thought I would see the day when Fred Barnes would go over to the shortsighted liberal side of politics. But it looks like yesterday was that day.


Forget about Sarah Palin as the Republican presidential candidate in 2012 and probably ever. She may have no interest in seeking the GOP nomination. But if she does, her chances of winning the nomination have been minimized by her decision to resign as governor of Alaska. She's knocked out one of three legs of the presidential stool and a second one is wobbly.

I say this reluctantly because Palin, in my view, is the most exciting Republican figure to emerge in decades. She mesmerizes crowds in a way that no other Republican leader can come close to matching. She has what can't be taught--real charisma.

But personal magnetism is only one of the legs, or underpinnings, for a successful race for the Republican nomination. The other two are experience in office and enough knowledge of foreign and domestic issues to talk about them persuasively. By stepping down, she's cut her experience short: it now consists of a meager two and a half years as governor of a thinly populated state. And, from all appearances, Palin has made little headway on the issue track.

More... (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/700nykxe.asp)

[Jorddyn]

Look. I like Palin, obviously. I like what she stands for. Show me a lib female in politics who is all about family and I will join the bandwagon.


I want my legislators to legislate, but I do not want them to waste their time attempting to legislate morality - which is how family values reads to me.

Therefore, I would prefer that my candidate run not on a platform of "family values" (i.e. morality), but rather on one of fiscal stability, domestic security, protection of the weak, freedom to make one's own stupid decisions, and caffiene for all*.

If you're not asking them to legislate morality, what do you want them legislating in regards to family values?

*added because I'm tired

[Methais]

If only there was some sort of other massively underqualified example we could use to demonstrate why we might all have to be afraid...


Oh wait..

http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2009/01/OBAMA%20HAT%20FIERCE.JPG

Fixed.

[4a6c1]

I want my legislators to legislate, but I do not want them to waste their time attempting to legislate morality - which is how family values reads to me.

Therefore, I would prefer that my candidate run not on a platform of "family values" (i.e. morality), but rather on one of fiscal stability, domestic security, protection of the weak, freedom to make one's own stupid decisions, and caffiene for all*.

If you're not asking them to legislate morality, what do you want them legislating in regards to family values?

*added because I'm tired


Haha. :coffee:

I guess it does read that way but I didnt mean I want my politicians standing on a base of family values and nothing else. I ment I want them to have a family first, and a career later.

Maybe I'm PREJUDICED but if my politician doesnt have kids or didnt spend at least a few years raising babies I get bored quick. In fact, that is the only thing I like about Obama. I like that he is in the highest form of service our country can offer while raising small children. Such an awesome example to set. I listen to his speeches every time he talks not as a Republican but as a Mom. And every single time I hope he's going to talk about our failed education system, but he doesnt. :(

To all the rest you mentioned I agree, especially caffeine for all.

I suppose the only moral issue I am at odds with would be the abortion one. I am a quiet pro-lifer. Quiet because all my friends are feminist scientific types. Obviously I dont talk politics at study group.

[Warriorbird]

Mark Sanford will be about family values for you, Jihna.

[4a6c1]

Bwahahaha. You're late!

I have been expecting that quip for a day and a half now.

:bouncy:

[Warriorbird]

I already said they should run for office together.

:P

[Back]

If shes having such a hard time with the press as governor how could she possibly cope with vice presidency or presidency?

[Bhuryn]

I say who cares, the media decides who wins the presidency anyway. All of the mainstream candidates are the same now. The only thing that differs is their token backgrounds:

Hi, I'm a Ex Preacher from <state>...
I'm a successful business man I ran <company>..."
I'm a career politition, i've held <poisition list>..."
Hi, I'm a bitch...

The "people that care" group is a fraction of the "people that care enough to blindly follow <insert random talking head>".

[Parkbandit]

If shes having such a hard time with the press as governor how could she possibly cope with vice presidency or presidency?

Damn.. I actually agree with Backlash.

She played the victim card far too much. Get the fuck over it.

PS - She's still hot as hell.

[Tsa`ah]

So I assume you've done the same with the Obamas.. or do you only use that excuse with Republicans? Not a big leap there, that you tune them out.. since you don't care what they have to say to begin with.

Obama did not have a "family values" platform ... other than fathers being part of their children's lives. Stepping up to the plate as it were.

Almost every conservative "family values" bullshit committee, such as the FRC, gave him low to non-existent marks.

Now if you care to elaborate, point to any specific instance where Obama's campaign touched the "family values" platform other than the aforementioned and to say that the right doesn't actually hold the monopoly.

I'll wait.

[jamesjeans]

If her goal is to position herself for higher office, the stagecraft and timing of her announcement left Republicans scratching their heads...

[Parkbandit]

Obama did not have a "family values" platform ... other than fathers being part of their children's lives. Stepping up to the plate as it were.

Almost every conservative "family values" bullshit committee, such as the FRC, gave him low to non-existent marks.

Now if you care to elaborate, point to any specific instance where Obama's campaign touched the "family values" platform other than the aforementioned and to say that the right doesn't actually hold the monopoly.

I'll wait.

Provide a single quote from me where I ever stated that the right has a monopoly on family values.

I'll wait.

In the meantime, feel free to go through Obama's political speeches. Just because he doesn't spout the term "FAMILY VALUE" at every opportunity (he used CHANGE and HOPE instead) doesn't mean he doesn't value the family. The topic was in many of his stump speeches. Here's just one I quickly found on the Internet... you know Tsa'ah.. via Google.. where I just searched "Obama"+"Family"+"Speech". This was the first one that resulted from a video search and OMG IT HAS FAMILY AND VALUES RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING!!!111oneone.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4955339586025316668&ei=Kj1TSsXAGJOAqwKDtYDHAw&q=Obama+speech+family&hl=en

Your double standard is amusing as hell though.

[Rocktar]

Small government. This indicates a person who understands the government's role and focuses on reducing the societies need of government. Again, this is addressing issues of poverty, education, and health care. Small government is not tax cuts, pork spending, and increasing the size of government ... all of which Palin partnered with.



Government is like a drug that people without motivation to change, or any real stake in some problem, like to use to address that problem. After all, it may be concerning, even alarming, but if it doesn't directly affect me, then it isn't really my problem is it? So, let someone else handle it, let's call the government, after all, that is someone else and then I don't have to have any personal responsibility. In addition, people like to use the government as a scape goat for trying to tackle anything they perceive as a "large" problem.

For example:
Poverty: People like to absolve those living in poverty of their own personal responsibility to lift themselves out of poverty and instead, transfer that responsibility onto "government". If you provide food, clothing, shelter and basic entertainment to all the people at no personal cost to them, you incentivize them to have more children in order to get paid more benefits and you disincentivize them from stopping such continued support, then you end up with our current situation. The vast majority of people given the choice, will do nothing more than what is required to provide for their basic needs and their basic entertainment. In our society, that means food stamps, government housing and cable TV. You cannot institutionally instill drive, ambition, desire for self improvement or goals.

Violence and crime: It is a common theme that if we fix all the ills of society, make sure that everyone is fed, clothed, employed and educated, that somehow, violence and crime will magically disappear. This is a myth. Some forms of violence and crime will decrease; this decrease is not really quantifiable because as you alleviate poverty based on today's definition, tomorrow’s definition is changed, therefore you simply end up with an endless cycle of public welfare, dependence and wealth redistribution. The only way you can equalize everyone in outcome is by lowering the level of outcome so low that it is imperceptibly different from poverty and by forcibly repressing any that attempt to rise above it.

Education: We, as woefully unbelievable as it may seem, have a very high, societal level of education compared to the vast majority of the people in the world. We may have poor test scores on some particular tests, but over all, our people have more education than the vast majority of all the people on the planet. That includes the one’s that failed school and the dropouts. Education, again, requires a level of personal responsibility, drive, ambition and desire for self improvement that cannot be institutionally instilled. The saying goes, “You can lead an idiot to knowledge, but you can’t make them think.” Everyone in this country has access to basic education that will include the chance to learn to read, write and so on. Yet, a large number of people fail to avail themselves of such free education and those that do, very few use it after school thus making them no different that the illiterate who cannot read. There is no functional difference in those that can not read and those that DO not read.

Now, the solution to reducing the size of government is blindingly simple. Reduce the roll of government rather than increase it. The “do more with less” is a great business theory; however, evidence suggests that it does not work with regards to government. The problem is, that in the short term, such a move is painful and suddenly, all those people who have no real personal responsibility are forced to take responsibility and fend for themselves AND everyone else must be a mature and reasonable individual and stand fast in the face of some short term pain and suffering. Unfortunately, those people living with the pain and suffering for a time also vote and have no understanding of the real cost of what they want to vote for is. In fact, most people (over 85% I would guess) have no idea or concept of planning anything past their next paycheck or possibly next year’s vacation if they have one.

It comes down to this, once people discovered they could get something at no personal cost to them, they want it and want more of it. Socialism doesn’t work and I am tried of people taking my hard earned money to support others that don’t do any hard earning. I am also tired of people that don’t and haven’t worked for their money trying to sell me a line of manure about how “enlightened” and “compassionate” they are in wanting to take my money and give it to someone else that hasn’t worked for it.

[Tsa`ah]

Provide a single quote from me where I ever stated that the right has a monopoly on family values.

I'll wait.

Do you not know how to read? This is a serious question.

I never claimed you made the statement ... unless of course your one true desire is to be a black man.


In the meantime, feel free to go through Obama's political speeches. Just because he doesn't spout the term "FAMILY VALUE" at every opportunity (he used CHANGE and HOPE instead) doesn't mean he doesn't value the family. The topic was in many of his stump speeches. Here's just one I quickly found on the Internet... you know Tsa'ah.. via Google.. where I just searched "Obama"+"Family"+"Speech". This was the first one that resulted from a video search and OMG IT HAS FAMILY AND VALUES RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING!!!111oneone.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4955339586025316668&ei=Kj1TSsXAGJOAqwKDtYDHAw&q=Obama+speech+family&hl=en

Your double standard is amusing as hell though.

You failed on so many levels even if we disregard the first part.

1. The video is titled "Michelle & Barack Obama Speech"
2. You obviously didn't watch the video ... or you did and still managed to fail at discerning the message and content.

I honestly can't imagine how you can get through the day without suffocating.

[TheEschaton]

Jihnna, I know a liberal female politician who suffered a very public scandal where her husband was sticking cigars up some hussy's hoochie just cause he could. She did so silently, and with grace, and managed to raise a teenager at the same time, all in a huge, glaring public spotlight.

Of course, when she's a Dem, the question becomes "WHy didn't she LEAAAAVE HIM?" instead of "Boy, she must really VALUE HER FAMILY."

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

There is a big difference between mentioning that you're a family man and take pride in being a father, and a mother parading her children and their issues as some testament towards family values.

[4a6c1]

Jihnna, I know a liberal female politician who suffered a very public scandal where her husband was sticking cigars up some hussy's hoochie just cause he could. She did so silently, and with grace, and managed to raise a teenager at the same time, all in a huge, glaring public spotlight.


-TheE-

Yep. Once again, thats the only thing I like about her. It made her real. I just really really really disagree with her politics. Other than that, cool lady.

[TheEschaton]

But wasn't the original question to provide a female liberal politician who nevertheless has family values, as if the two were mutually exclusive?

-TheE-

[4a6c1]

Never said that, nor did I claim to be an expert. I just elaborated on what was important to me in a politician.

Hey, I really tried to join Hilary. While her husband was in office I loved her. I was all about all the news I could get of her and her daughter. Even when she was running in the primary I was still behind her. But she became cold and distant. I couldnt identify with her anymore because she didnt give me those warm fuzzies. She almost seemed like two people. I followed everything and when she visited schools and talked to kids I was thrilled but then she would be an ice queen at debates like she felt nothing about anything.

I wanted her to talk about the education system because that is her thing and she NEVER DID. She talked about the stuff that the libs wanted to hear about, not the stuff that wives and mothers were waiting for her to gab about.

She has all these pet projects and I really think Hilary could bank on the fembot darwin nazi's of this country if she would just go with her passions instead of trying to sound like a man all the time.

[TheEschaton]

General rule of U.S. politics: You need to sound like a man, be tough, to get elected.

I don't think that rule is valid any more, if anything, Obama changed that metric, but he was the first - before that, there was no viable other strategy for a woman.

OF course, some people think Obama can be "womanly" because he's a black man, and that a woman being womanly would be too womanly for the male voters of the country.

There's some great books on the subject. :)

-TheE-

[4a6c1]

There's some great books on the subject. :)

-TheE-

share share

[TheEschaton]

I'd say Womenomics by Katty Kay, even though it is applied to the business world (after all, we all know politics is business, as usual. :P)

-TheE-

[Neo]

:yes:

[4a6c1]

I'd say Womenomics by Katty Kay, even though it is applied to the business world (after all, we all know politics is business, as usual. :P)

-TheE-

Oh great book. If a bit patronizing and unrealistic at times.

I cant picture you reading that. :-X

[ClydeR]

This Politico article matches my thoughts exactly. It says that Palin would win the nomination if it were today. And, in a part not quoted below, it says that the reason the media are being so critical of her decision to step down as governor is because she surprised them, instead of leaking trail balloons like more run-of-the-mill politicians do.


If it were not for one simple fact, I would say she was through in politics. And that fact is that if the Republicans were picking a nominee today, they would pick Sarah Palin.

No? Don’t believe me? Who would beat her? Tim Pawlenty? Bobby Jindal? Haley Barbour? Mike Huckabee? Mitt Romney?

All of these men might build credible, attractive, even powerful political operations by 2012. But right now? Today? Today, Sarah Palin would be the winner, because more than anyone else, she has won over the hearts and minds of the Republican rank and file. (And tell me that a Sarah Palin-Newt Gingrich ticket would not set conservative hearts aflutter.)

More... (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24606.html)

[Androidpk]

This Politico article matches my thoughts exactly. It says that Palin would win the nomination if it were today.

I actually find this plausible, stupidity is at an all time high these days. MJ and the media has proved that.

[Parkbandit]

There is a big difference between mentioning that you're a family man and take pride in being a father, and a mother parading her children and their issues as some testament towards family values.

It's all from a matter of perspective. Clearly you feel that Palin was parading her family in front of the camera.. and I see no difference between what she did and what Obama did and has been doing with his kids.

[Parkbandit]

General rule of U.S. politics: You need to sound like a man, be tough, to get elected.

I don't think that rule is valid any more, if anything, Obama changed that metric, but he was the first - before that, there was no viable other strategy for a woman.

OF course, some people think Obama can be "womanly" because he's a black man, and that a woman being womanly would be too womanly for the male voters of the country.

There's some great books on the subject. :)

-TheE-

Are you saying that Obama is some effeminate metro-sexual? I've never seen him in that light. There's nothing "womanly" about Obama IMO. Eloquence in being able to read a speech isn't a trait limited to females.

[4a6c1]

It's all from a matter of perspective. Clearly you feel that Palin was parading her family in front of the camera.. and I see no difference between what she did and what Obama did and has been doing with his kids.

There really isnt a difference. But what they call parading, I call pride. What parent doesnt at some point thrust there kid around stupidly going 'look what my kid did?!'. I'm suspicious of people who dont.

Obama was brilliant to be talking about a puppy for his girls on that night because right at that EXACT moment I was so pissed off and then because of him I was all like AWWWWW.

[Parkbandit]

There really isnt a difference. But what they call parading, I call pride. What parent doesnt at some point thrust there kid around stupidly going 'look what my kid did?!'. I'm suspicious of people who dont.

Obama was brilliant to be talking about a puppy for his girls on that night because right at that EXACT moment I was so pissed off and then because of him I was all like AWWWWW.

Yea.. that picture of him running through the WH with the dog tugged at one of my strings.

http://www.the-obama-dog.com/wp-content/gallery/bo-obama-dog-aka-first-puppy/obama-dog-bo.jpg

[4a6c1]

I wonder what Obama has on his Ipod.

[CrystalTears]

There really isnt a difference. But what they call parading, I call pride. What parent doesnt at some point thrust there kid around stupidly going 'look what my kid did?!'. I'm suspicious of people who dont. Really? She has pride in her teenager giving birth when she's advocating abstinence? She has pride in her abnormal baby (and this only works when discussing her pro-life stance)?

Perhaps she has pride in her family, but really, did the teenager and baby need to be brought up all the time? What was her point? I understand that all parents would showcase their children, I just think she went about it all the wrong way and way too in your face about their problems.

[radamanthys]

I understand that all parents would showcase their children, I just think she went about it all the wrong way...

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/michael_jackson-balcony-290.jpg

[CrystalTears]

LOL! Exactly.

[AnticorRifling]

I wonder what Obama has on his Ipod. If I Ruled the World - Nas

[Parkbandit]

Really? She has pride in her teenager giving birth when she's advocating abstinence? She has pride in her abnormal baby (and this only works when discussing her pro-life stance)?

Perhaps she has pride in her family, but really, did the teenager and baby need to be brought up all the time? What was her point? I understand that all parents would showcase their children, I just think she went about it all the wrong way and way too in your face about their problems.

I'm advocating abstinence with my kids.. I'm pretty sure I'll still love and have pride in them if one of them ends up pregnant.

Should I all of a sudden change my personal views because some member of my family does something against them?

[CrystalTears]

I'm advocating abstinence with my kids.. I'm pretty sure I'll still love and have pride in them if one of them ends up pregnant.If your political platform was advocating abstinence and your young child was pregnant, I do NOT expect you to bring them up in your political discussions. At all. I'm not saying to stop loving them or having pride in them, I'm saying you don't use them as a pity argument.

[ElvenFury]

At least she didn't threaten to burn the reporter's houses down.

[TheEschaton]

FUCKING DON'T TALK ABOUT HER KIDS.

[Parkbandit]

If your political platform was advocating abstinence and your young child was pregnant, I do NOT expect you to bring them up in your political discussions. At all. I'm not saying to stop loving them or having pride in them, I'm saying you don't use them as a pity argument.

Riiiiight.

You've never had kids, have you.

[CrystalTears]

Riiiiight.

You've never had kids, have you.
I'm not running for office either. What the hell is your point?

I love how you immediately assume that I don't have kids because I disagree with Palin bringing up her children in her political career. Sorry, I found it offensive and if you would sink so low as to use your children in such a fashion, you'd rank pretty low as well. Well... lower.

There's a part of me that is happy now that McCain/Palin didn't win despite me voting for them. Not really sure what possessed me to do such a thing. She's batshit crazy.

[Jorddyn]

DON'T TALK ABOUT HER KIDS FUCKING.


FTFY.

[Parkbandit]

I'm not running for office either. What the hell is your point?

I love how you immediately assume that I don't have kids because I disagree with Palin bringing up her children in her political career. Sorry, I found it offensive and if you would sink so low as to use your children in such a fashion, you'd rank pretty low as well. Well... lower.

There's a part of me that is happy now that McCain/Palin didn't win despite me voting for them.

I don't assume you don't have children because you disagree with Palin.. I assume you don't have children for your reasoning. You don't divorce your family when you run for political office... for better or for worse, they are a huge part of your life. Sarah believes in right to life and abstinence.. and regardless what her 17 year old child did, it doesn't change her own personal view.

If you are going to use someone, usually you want to get something out of it. Exactly what was the political capital Palin gained by having her kid get pregnant anyway?

[CrystalTears]

I don't assume you don't have children because you disagree with Palin.. I assume you don't have children for your reasoning. You don't divorce your family when you run for political office... for better or for worse, they are a huge part of your life. Sarah believes in right to life and abstinence.. and regardless what her 17 year old child did, it doesn't change her own personal view.

If you are going to use someone, usually you want to get something out of it. Exactly what was the political capital Palin gained by having her kid get pregnant anyway?
You have serious reading comprehension. I'm not going to bother anymore.

I'd love to see the day that you discuss the argument for its own sake and not because you don't like the person making the argument.

[Parkbandit]

You have serious reading comprehension. I'm not going to bother anymore.

It's probably not a reading comprehension issue on my part.. but more of a lack of effective communication on yours. If I've read something wrong, please feel free to point it out.



I'd love to see the day that you discuss the argument for its own sake and not because you don't like the person making the argument.

Wait.. didn't you start this discussion between us? Could it possibly be that you initiated it because you don't like me.. much like you did in another thread just yesterday? Here's the thing CT.. if you don't want to debate anything with me.. perhaps you shouldn't initiate it? It sucks that you want to throw out a one line zinger, then when you are called out for it, you want to cry victim when your entire position is torn apart.

[CrystalTears]

It's probably not a reading comprehension issue on my part.. but more of a lack of effective communication on yours. If I've read something wrong, please feel free to point it out.

Wait.. didn't you start this discussion between us? Could it possibly be that you initiated it because you don't like me.. much like you did in another thread just yesterday? Here's the thing CT.. if you don't want to debate anything with me.. perhaps you shouldn't initiate it? It sucks that you want to throw out a one line zinger, then when you are called out for it, you want to cry victim when your entire position is torn apart.
Actually I wasn't addressing you initially, I was talking to Jihnas. You were the one who stepped in. I should have just given you back your answer that I wasn't talking to you. You decided to argue with me.

My argument didn't fall apart, yours did. My argument has been about Palin exploiting her children politically. You chose to turn this into a poisoning the well argument by turning it around on me that my lack of children is the reason for my claims. You started up a straw man argument discussing the love factor and divorcing family when entering the political arena when that was never my point. Your argument sucks by having two fallacies and no facts. Fuck off.

[Clove]

Shame on you CT for expecting PB not to use fallacious reasoning.

Palin exploits her children for her political purposes, which is pretty fucking far from having pride in them or publicly mentioning them.

[Parkbandit]

Shame on you CT for expecting PB not to use fallacious reasoning.

Palin exploits her children for her political purposes, which is pretty fucking far from having pride in them or publicly mentioning them.

What a surprise...

[Parkbandit]

Actually I wasn't addressing you initially, I was talking to Jihnas. You were the one who stepped in. I should have just given you back your answer that I wasn't talking to you. You decided to argue with me.

My argument didn't fall apart, yours did. My argument has been about Palin exploiting her children politically. You chose to turn this into a poisoning the well argument by turning it around on me that my lack of children is the reason for my claims. You started up a straw man argument discussing the love factor and divorcing family when entering the political arena when that was never my point. Your argument sucks by having two fallacies and no facts. Fuck off.

You might want to revisit this thread... right where you posted this:


There is a big difference between mentioning that you're a family man and take pride in being a father, and a mother parading her children and their issues as some testament towards family values.

Also, in the future.. if you would like to respond to a specific post, you could use the quote feature on this message board. I know.. it must have been my reading comprehension's fault again........

[CrystalTears]

You might want to revisit this thread... right where you posted this:



Also, in the future.. if you would like to respond to a specific post, you could use the quote feature on this message board. I know.. it must have been my reading comprehension's fault again........
Hey fathead, that wasn't towards you. It was a general statement towards my concern with Palin vs. Obama. If YOU took it personally, that's your problem.

[Parkbandit]

Hey fathead, that wasn't towards you. It was a general statement towards my concern with Palin vs. Obama. If YOU took it personally, that's your problem.

You, of all people, shouldn't use the term "fat" in any response.

How's that for personal, bitch?

Take your own advice.. fuck off.

[CrystalTears]

You, of all people, shouldn't use the term "fat" in any response.

How's that for personal, bitch?

Take your own advice.. fuck off.:lol: Is that the best you have? To call me fat? Wow, like no one's ever used that as an argument around here before. Go you.

[4a6c1]

lol @ fathead. CT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I disagree with you on most points. I dont believe she exploited her children. I think she failed to hide them and her personal issues from the public eye in the way that a more experienced Washington politician would have. Ie. Dick Cheney's daughter. I think she tried upfront honesty and an open book approach (for lack of preperation) and it was thrown in her face and labeled stupidity.

I do agree that she has gone crazy. How could she not? She is helpless to defend her kids against everything the press is saying about them. A bad mom wouldnt care. A good mom chose to leave the public eye. Is she coming back? Your guess is as good as mine.

[4a6c1]

I would also like to add that I think Palin is one of those overly proud moms. If you dont know what I'm talking about drive to the suburbs and find a minivan with stickers. Follow it and observe. You should witness the following.

A family of bumper sticker stick people and a stick puppy, all with names.
A white emblem that has the words 'soccer mom' or 'tae kwon do mom' and a kick kicking something on a white sticker.
An obnoxious sticker that says My kid did (blah blah blah blah blah) at (such and such) middle school.

Yeah, thats Palin. Vote 4 teh minivan!

[Clove]

What a surprise...Not really a surprise that you're still using the same tired fallacious rhetoric. Hysterical that CT called you on it though.

[Clove]

:lol: Is that the best you have? To call me fat? Wow, like no one's ever used that as an argument around here before. Go you.Sounds like PB is laying down the ground for an ad hominem fallacy next? Amirite?

[Daniel]

Sounds like PB is laying down the ground for an ad hominem fallacy next? Amirite?

I think we're getting close to the JPG zone.

[Mikalmas]

She is helpless to defend her kids against everything the press is saying about them.

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about?

What has the press ever said about Sarah Palin's kids *other* than the 17 year old got knocked up when her mom was touting an abstinence-only sex education program? For the love of god, she's an 18 year old mother who broke up conveniently with the fiancee AFTER mom lost the election and is still parading around the country participating in ABSTINENCE ONLY PROGRAMS. WTF is that?

Other than that, and a COMEDIAN making jokes that Sarah Palin herself exacerbated and harped about for a week, WHAT has the media said about her kids? Honest question, too. Maybe I just missed it.

[AnticorRifling]

I would think that a teen that got knocked up would be a good person do abstinence talks... "Hey I thought condom/pullout/birth control/whatever would work. Turns out safe isn't safe enough and now I've got a kid. Keep your shit in your pants unless you're prepared to accept the consequences."

[Parkbandit]

I would think that a teen that got knocked up would be a good person do abstinence talks... "Hey I thought condom/pullout/birth control/whatever would work. Turns out safe isn't safe enough and now I've got a kid. Keep your shit in your pants unless you're prepared to accept the consequences."


No shit.

[Mikalmas]

I would think that a teen that got knocked up would be a good person do abstinence talks... "Hey I thought condom/pullout/birth control/whatever would work. Turns out safe isn't safe enough and now I've got a kid. Keep your shit in your pants unless you're prepared to accept the consequences."

So...do as I say, not do as I do? How well does that usually work?

[AnticorRifling]

So...do as I say, not do as I do? How well does that usually work?

Usually it works better when you put an example in front of your target audience. Not a statistic, not a power point presentation, a living (or dead depending on the presentation) example. I always felt having a drunk driving class given by someone that's paralyzed from the neck down was more impactful than a teacher saying "Every year blah blah blah".

I'm all for the try it for yourself and see method in most cases but somethings the reprocussions are great enough that do as I say should come into play.

[Jorddyn]

I would think that a teen that got knocked up would be a good person do abstinence talks... "Hey I thought condom/pullout/birth control/whatever would work. Turns out safe isn't safe enough and now I've got a kid. Keep your shit in your pants unless you're prepared to accept the consequences."

Except that those without the education are far less likely to use proper birth control. Was that what happened here? Don't know. But if she wasn't using birth control at all, then it seems to be a boon to true sex ed rather than to abstinence only.

[Mikalmas]

Usually it works better when you put an example in front of your target audience. Not a statistic, not a power point presentation, a living (or dead depending on the presentation) example. I always felt having a drunk driving class given by someone that's paralyzed from the neck down was more impactful than a teacher saying "Every year blah blah blah".

I'm all for the try it for yourself and see method in most cases but somethings the reprocussions are great enough that do as I say should come into play.

I understand what you're saying, but I think your analogy is closer to telling someone to not drink by presenting an example of a paralyzed drunk driver. There's a big difference between drinking and drinking and driving. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to teach someone to not drink and drive rather than say don't drink at all?

[Daniel]

Usually it works better when you put an example in front of your target audience. Not a statistic, not a power point presentation, a living (or dead depending on the presentation) example. I always felt having a drunk driving class given by someone that's paralyzed from the neck down was more impactful than a teacher saying "Every year blah blah blah".

I'm all for the try it for yourself and see method in most cases but somethings the reprocussions are great enough that do as I say should come into play.

Uhh...There's a slight difference between being able to use it as an effective example for the consequences of diong something and promoting it as a viable policy.

[ClydeR]

I've said before, and will repeat now for emphasis, that it's not a good idea for politicians to use Twitter frequently. They get too comfortable with it and start blabbering without giving proper thought to their public pronouncement that will be recorded for all eternity. All eternity.

The latest politician to fall into the trap is, sadly, Governor Palin, who now has more than 87,000 followers since she first tweeted on April 29. It was okay when she was just discussing Alaska matters, but now she's started opining on national issues and offering golden nuggets from her general life philosophy several times a day. Not going to end well.

http://twitter.com/AKGovSarahPalin

[Clove]

Uhh...There's a slight difference between being able to use it as an effective example for the consequences of diong something and promoting it as a viable policy.AR wasn't arguing the validity (or effectiveness) of such a policy.

AR pointed out that a teen mother could be a valid spokesperson for the policy since she could use her situation as a concrete example of the potential consequences of sex (which is useful if you're proposing that people should abstain from sex before they are prepared to handle such consequences). Whether or not you think that particular policy is the right solution is a separate argument. AR was merely pointing out that it isn't necessary to be a teen virgin to promote a sex-abstainence policy.

[Daniel]

AR wasn't arguing the validity (or effectiveness) of such a policy.

AR pointed out that a teen mother could be a valid spokesperson for the policy since she could use her situation as a concrete example of the potential consequences of sex (which is useful if you're proposing that people should abstain from sex before they are prepared to handle such consequences). Whether or not you think that particular policy is the right solution is a separate argument. AR was merely pointing out that it isn't necessary to be a teen virgin to promote a sex-abstainence policy.

Uh...I know. That's why I said that there is a difference between that and what other people are criticising Palin for, which would be the policy. As she is a politician.

[Parkbandit]

Uh...I know. That's why I said that there is a difference between that and what other people are criticising Palin for, which would be the policy. As she is a politician.

If she had said that abstinence is the best way to prevent pregnancy for years.. and then once her daughter got knocked up BOOM! Now she believes that you should use the pill.

Yea.. that wouldn't have been criticised by people like you at all. She was in a no win situation.

Like I said, I hope my kids practice abstinence and that personal opinion won't change if one of them were to get pregnant.

[Daniel]

If she had said that abstinence is the best way to prevent pregnancy for years.. and then once her daughter got knocked up BOOM! Now she believes that you should use the pill.

Yea.. that wouldn't have been criticised by people like you at all. She was in a no win situation.

Like I said, I hope my kids practice abstinence and that personal opinion won't change if one of them were to get pregnant.

You're right. Advocating a failed and ridiculous policy is a no win situation. I'm glad you finally see that.

To your final point: hoping your kids do one thing for a problem and implementing an effective policy to address it are entirely different things.

[Clove]

Uh...I know. That's why I said that there is a difference between that and what other people are criticising Palin for, which would be the policy. As she is a politician.I think we all get that some people criticize Palin for promoting an abstinence policy. AR responded to a post aimed at Palin's daughter that criticized her effectiveness to promote the same policy because of the obvious fact that she had, had teen sex.

If you want to argue the flaws of an abstinence policy, and criticize Palin for supporting it, please be my guest. AR's point was separate and doesn't figure into it at all.

[Clove]

Except that those without the education are far less likely to use proper birth control. Was that what happened here? Don't know. But if she wasn't using birth control at all, then it seems to be a boon to true sex ed rather than to abstinence only.That's an interesting point and I might have considered it further if you knew how to handle your underwear!!!!

[Daniel]

I think we all get that some people criticize Palin for promoting an abstinence policy. AR responded to a post aimed at Palin's daughter that criticized her effectiveness to promote the same policy because of the obvious fact that she had, had teen sex.

If you want to argue the flaws of an abstinence policy, and criticize Palin for supporting it, please be my guest. AR's point was separate and doesn't figure into it at all.

Once again. all I was saying is that the two points are distinct. Thanks for reiterating my point.

[Clove]

Once again. all I was saying is that the two points are distinct. Thanks for reiterating my point.Oh, well thanks then Capt. Obvious. Your point was that when AR is talking about Palin's daughter, he isn't talking about Palin? Excellent. You know you could have just posted your issues with Palin's Abstinence policy. AR's post had little to do with it.

[Daniel]

Oh, well thanks then Capt. Obvious. Your point was that AR wasn't talking about Palin. Glad we have you around here.

Are you off your meds again?

[Clove]

Are you off your meds again?Are you? That was an horrible segue. I mean look at it:

Uhh...There's a slight difference between being able to use it as an effective example for the consequences of diong something and promoting it as a viable policy.You're responding to AR's post that Palin's daughter, despite being pregnant, could be a valid spokesperson for the policy to tell us that it isn't a viable policy. AR never claimed that it was, or wasn't; only that he didn't see the pregnancy as an impediment to her daughters effectiveness as a promoter.

Your point wasn't relevant to AR's.

[Daniel]

Are you? That was an horrible segue. I mean look at it:
You're responding to AR's post that Palin's daughter, despite being pregnant, could be a valid spokesperson for the policy to tell us that it isn't a viable policy. AR never claimed that it was, or wasn't; only that he didn't see the pregnancy as an impediment to her daughters effectiveness as a promoter.

Your point wasn't relevant to AR's.

AR said his comment in response to what? Someone criticizing Palin for promoting absintence as a policy.

Please get your fucking head out of your ass.


I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about?

What has the press ever said about Sarah Palin's kids *other* than the 17 year old got knocked up when her mom was touting an abstinence-only sex education program? For the love of god, she's an 18 year old mother who broke up conveniently with the fiancee AFTER mom lost the election and is still parading around the country participating in ABSTINENCE ONLY PROGRAMS. WTF is that?

Other than that, and a COMEDIAN making jokes that Sarah Palin herself exacerbated and harped about for a week, WHAT has the media said about her kids? Honest question, too. Maybe I just missed it.

[Clove]

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about?

What has the press ever said about Sarah Palin's kids *other* than the 17 year old got knocked up when her mom was touting an abstinence-only sex education program? For the love of god, she's an 18 year old mother who broke up conveniently with the fiancee AFTER mom lost the election and is still parading around the country participating in ABSTINENCE ONLY PROGRAMS. WTF is that?

Other than that, and a COMEDIAN making jokes that Sarah Palin herself exacerbated and harped about for a week, WHAT has the media said about her kids? Honest question, too. Maybe I just missed it.


I would think that a teen that got knocked up would be a good person do abstinence talks... "Hey I thought condom/pullout/birth control/whatever would work. Turns out safe isn't safe enough and now I've got a kid. Keep your shit in your pants unless you're prepared to accept the consequences."


AR said his comment in response to what? Someone criticizing Palin for promoting absintence as a policy.

Please get your fucking head out of your ass.Mikalmas criticized Palin for promoting an abstinence policy and criticized her daughter for promoting an abstinence policy despite having had a teen pregnancy. AR addressed the later criticism and observed that he didn't believe her daughter's pregnancy was an impediment to her participation in abstinence programs.

So, if you'd like to discuss Mikalmas' first point get YOUR head out of YOUR ass by not aiming your points at posts that aren't relevant to them.

[Daniel]

Mikalmas criticized Palin for promoting an abstinence policy and criticized her daughter for promoting an abstinence policy despite having had a teen pregnancy. AR addressed the later criticism and observed that he didn't believe her daughter's pregnancy was an impediment to her participation in abstinence programs.

So, if you'd like to discuss Mikalmas' first point get YOUR head out of YOUR ass by not aiming your points at posts that aren't relevant to them.

wow. clove. Just wow. You could have saved us all the trouble and said, yes, I am off my meds.

[AnticorRifling]

Hahaha. Fuck I love this place.

[Clove]

wow. clove. Just wow. You could have saved us all the trouble and said, yes, I am off my meds.Fine Daniel. You're off your meds.

[Parkbandit]

Sounds like PB is laying down the ground for an ad hominem fallacy next? Amirite?


Quoting this for the sheer hysterical nature of it... given the last few pages.

[Clove]

Quoting this for the sheer hysterical nature of it... given the last few pages.Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is?

[AnticorRifling]

Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is? Isn't that one of those herbal ED pills?

[Stanley Burrell]

Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is?

Eh, I'm pretty sure if you try and argue any of the common fallacies for their merit on an e-bulletin board, you're pretty much guaranteeing yourself a one-way ticket to pwnsville.

I'd never make a Non Sequitor or Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy because that's already obvious. And the fact that I've been on these forums for quite some time is a testament to that :tumble:

[Jorddyn]

Do you know what an ad hominem fallacy is?


You smell.

[Stanley Burrell]

You smell.

So he smells? Love it or leave it.

What's a polarization fallacy?

[4a6c1]

only extreme views are valid!

OOOOH OOOH Whats my prize?!

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

So he smells? Love it or leave it.

What's a polarization fallacy?

When a Polar Bear is all "lulz you suck" to a Penguin.

And the penguin is all, "Wtf are you doing in Antarctica?"

Then the ice the polar bear is standing on breaks off into the ocean and slowly melts away, causing the polar bear to drown in an awful, suffering death.




Also: the penguins keep all the coca-cola for themselves, due to being caffeine junkies.

[4a6c1]

Noooooooooooooooooooo. Polarization fallacy is...

The penguin says to the polar bear,"All polar bears are fat."

Even if true, being an extreme statement makes it WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG dirty dirty libs WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

[Clove]

You smell.Yes, but at least I can wear my underwear properly!

[Clove]

So he smells? Love it or leave it.

What's a polarization fallacy?

When a Polar Bear is all "lulz you suck" to a Penguin.

And the penguin is all, "Wtf are you doing in Antarctica?"


Noooooooooooooooooooo. Polarization fallacy is...

The penguin says to the polar bear,"All polar bears are fat."Palin can see polar bears from her porch!

[Clove]

Isn't that one of those herbal ED pills?No, but I suspect that ad hominem arguments have the same effect on PB when he uses them.

[diethx]

Yes, but at least I can wear my underwear properly!

You must have fantastic posture.

[Clove]

You must have fantastic posture.Yes. I always stand up straight and erect.

[AnticorRifling]

You must have fantastic posture. Nicely executed.

[Androidpk]

http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=4279

This made me laugh pretty good. I bet ClydeR is crushed.

[nickadams123]

I have said Sarah Palin's political ambition combined with her intellect is like putting a jet engine on a golf cart; lots of horse power and no steering capabilities. Today she proved it.

[ElvenFury]

Silly robot, political opinions are for people who can vote. ;-)

[jimtaylor]

The latest in a string of bizarre moves from Palin only proves the fact that she is not qualified to hold a high-public office. What's concerning is that seven out of 10 mouthbreathers like Loretta Hedberg, Jacob Trunk, Jim Langevin, etc. would still vote for her despite her demonstrated failure in a lesser position.

She's done enough damage and if she truely cared about anyone but herself she would leave public service to the capable and committed.

[4a6c1]

The bots dont like Palin.

I think there is a lesson in that sentence somewhere.

[Mikalmas]

I have said Sarah Palin's political ambition combined with her intellect is like putting a jet engine on a golf cart; lots of horse power and no steering capabilities. Today she proved it.

I know its a bot, but that's still funny.

[Parkbandit]

I know its a bot, but that's still funny.


It's a fully automated bot that just spews liberal rhetoric from moveon.org or mediamatters.org..

You are only lacking 2 really stupid links in your sig to becoming the same exact thing.

[Back]

Seriously. Dude, if you want to join the army of liberals who want to take over this country you at least need to watch CNN, NYT, BBC, USAToday, Regis and Kathy Lee, Ellen, Oprah, Dancing with the stars and American Idol.

[Parkbandit]

Don't forget NBC, CBS and ABC.

[Back]

And PBS. Political Brainwashing System. Thats the best.

[radamanthys]

Comedy Central, too. Jon Stewart is the most trusted man in American news, don't forget.

:facepalm:

[4a6c1]

I like Jon Stewart. But that is probably because he manages to put forth all the opinions I am forced to listen to every day from my friends and family except he dips them in cocain and makes them funny.

So he is like family, except funny, interesting and jewish.

[Back]

Jews are funny. They condemned Jesus after all...

Anyway, Stewert is nothing more than anyone else who asks “WTF?”

[ClydeR]

They typed her whole speech (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20090727/palins-farewell-speech-transcript.htm) so everybody can read it. Also, Denny Crane did one of his famous poetic renditions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9lUh8CWmA), using the words of her speech.

[Clove]

Sarah Palin has a Bachelor's Degree. In journalism. After attending 5 or 6 different undgrad schools. And was the governor of the fourth smallest state (per capita), and by far the state with the least population density. She could see Russia from Alaska!! Her experience, other than governor of Alaska: she was a city councilmember and later mayor of Wasilla, population 9,780 (est).

Yeah.I'm going to assume that Alaska's population is greater than the Harvard Law Review's membership. See how ridiculous that looks? Population and population density are meaningless distinctions; all states have the same basic leadership challenges.

[Back]

I'm going to assume that Alaska's population is greater than the Harvard Law Review's membership. See how ridiculous that looks? Population and population density are meaningless distinctions; all states have the same basic leadership challenges.

Wow that was enlightening. Go back to STFU. Thanks.

[Clove]

Wow that was enlightening. Go back to STFU. Thanks.
STFU troll.

[Mikalmas]

Population and population density are meaningless distinctions; all states have the same basic leadership challenges.

Um, no.

[Clove]

Um, no.Clever retort. You're speaking from your vast experience as an executive? Ass.

[Mikalmas]

Clever retort. You're speaking from your vast experience as an executive? Ass.

You figured me out.

[radamanthys]

I really don't Palin's draw. There are far better options for teh Republicans.

She's like the crazy girl... you spend so much time defending her to your friends that you actually start to believe your own bullshit and fall in love.

[Back]

STFU troll.

Thats it? I was expecting some kind of clever insult backed up by half-assed assumption and some Google or Wiki article to prove it.

Brief works. Kudos!

[Clove]

Thats it? I was expecting some kind of clever insult backed up by half-assed assumption and some Google or Wiki article to prove it.

Brief works. Kudos!STFU troll.

[Back]

NO U!

[Clove]

NO U!STFU troll.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm going to assume that Alaska's population is greater than the Harvard Law Review's membership. See how ridiculous that looks? Population and population density are meaningless distinctions; all states have the same basic leadership challenges.Do you think it would be harder to govern New York City or Houston than Alaska?

[Back]

Do you think it would be harder to govern New York City or Houston than Alaska?

I see what you did. This should be good.

[radamanthys]

Do you think it would be harder to govern New York City or Houston than Alaska?

Define harder. And why are you comparing states to cities?

[Latrinsorm]

Harder meaning more challenging. I compare them because in general, I think it's reasonable to say more complex systems are more difficult to manage and that more people makes for more complexity. Both cities are significantly more populous than Alaska, and I would wonder what other factor would account for the difficulty of management, especially given that Alaska's population is significantly more compact and heterogeneous than stereotypes might suggest.

[Clove]

Harder meaning more challenging. I compare them because in general, I think it's reasonable to say more complex systems are more difficult to manage and that more people makes for more complexity. Both cities are significantly more populous than Alaska, and I would wonder what other factor would account for the difficulty of management, especially given that Alaska's population is significantly more compact and heterogeneous than stereotypes might suggest.So you don't include area as a factor of complexity. What about resources? Do you imagine that New York City needs to establish a department of motor vehicles? Do you suppose that Houston neighborhoods function like independent towns within a state? Board of Equalization perhaps?

And how does governing a small state speak to Obama's experience? Sitting as a state legislature, President of the Harvard review and sitting as a junior Senator is much more demanding than holding a governorship or mayor's seat?

[Gan]

Do you suppose that Houston neighborhoods function like independent towns within a state?
As a total tangent: Those neighborhoods with HOA (homeowners associations) are very close to being like independant cities. That being said - WTF is this thread still going?

Its difficult for anyone to really compare these jobs unless that person has actually performed said functions. At best, all we can do here is postulate the difficulties therein and sound like we know WTF we're talking about.

I would hazard to guess that State governance and city management would be a very apples to oranges comparison simply because of the differences in baseline public administration applicability, no matter what the size of the city or state (population) is.

Which is harder/easier? Find a city mayor who then became a state governor and ask them, or find an interview where that opinion is recorded.

[Latrinsorm]

So you don't include area as a factor of complexity.Not when the overwhelming majority of it is uninhabited, no. Wolverines are easy to govern, everyone knows that, just keep the men in the secured areas.
What about resources? Do you imagine that New York City needs to establish a department of motor vehicles? Do you suppose that Houston neighborhoods function like independent towns within a state? Board of Equalization perhaps?I think NYC's recent experience of taking control of its schools indicates that it could with good reason establish its own departments in a number of areas.

That aside, I don't see a response to my question, which I actually did hope you would answer.
And how does governing a small state speak to Obama's experience? Sitting as a state legislature, President of the Harvard review and sitting as a junior Senator is much more demanding than holding a governorship or mayor's seat?I'm not sure how you're classifying Illinois as a "small" state, as it has the fifth highest population in the Union. I'm also not sure what Pres. Obama has to do with anything, but I certainly wouldn't say being a Senator is more "demanding" than being a governor. What I took issue with was your statement that the population of the governed is a "meaningless distinction", I don't have anything against Fmr. Gov. Palin.

[Parkbandit]

Harder meaning more challenging. I compare them because in general, I think it's reasonable to say more complex systems are more difficult to manage and that more people makes for more complexity. Both cities are significantly more populous than Alaska, and I would wonder what other factor would account for the difficulty of management, especially given that Alaska's population is significantly more compact and heterogeneous than stereotypes might suggest.


You've never, ever managed anything in your life, have you.

[Latrinsorm]

On the order of a million people? No. Have you ever managed to go twenty posts without resorting to ad hominem arguments?

[Parkbandit]

On the order of a million people? No. Have you ever managed to go twenty posts without resorting to ad hominem arguments?

Sorry if I hurt your frail feelings with my "ad hominem" attack.... but it was a question, nothing more. I didn't put any million people stipulation on it either.. just asking if you ever managed anything in your life? Your viewpoint on this subject and your "OMG U R ATTACKING ME" already answered the question though.

Thanks.

[Tsa`ah]

Where was the question?

[diethx]

Sorry if I hurt your frail feelings with my "ad hominem" attack.... but it was a question, nothing more. I didn't put any million people stipulation on it either.. just asking if you ever managed anything in your life? Your viewpoint on this subject and your "OMG U R ATTACKING ME" already answered the question though.

Thanks.

Oh come on, you're always attacking people. Don't be surprised when people expect it from you if it's all you ever do.

[Parkbandit]

Oh come on, you're always attacking people. Don't be surprised when people expect it from you if it's all you ever do.

1) I wasn't surprised. A liberal's favorite pastime is playing the poor, poor victim. Boo fucking hoo.

2) You are one to talk about attacking others. Glass house.. stones.. yea.

[diethx]

1) I wasn't surprised. A liberal's favorite pastime is playing the poor, poor victim. Boo fucking hoo.

2) You are one to talk about attacking others. Glass house.. stones.. yea.

I am a bitch when people are stupid. You're just an angry guy like 24/7 on this forum.

[Parkbandit]

I am a bitch when people are stupid. You're just an angry guy like 24/7 on this forum.

BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE STUPID!!!!!1111oneone.

Fuck off.

[diethx]

BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE STUPID!!!!!1111oneone.

Fuck off.

People like me? You mean the people who very rarely post and don't argue in political threads?

Oh, wait...

[Latrinsorm]

Ad hominem doesn't mean that you've hurt my feelings, or for that matter that you've generated any emotional response. (As usual, you seriously overestimate your ability to instigate and interpret emotions.) Ad hominem means that rather than addressing my claims, you address me. If you can't see how you do this (all the time and in your last post in particular), I don't know what to tell you.

edit: this post addressed to PB.

[Lumi]

http://j883376.mirror.waffleimages.com/waffleimages/files/c6/c63c449bf220a651eab1683f2412ba77b504114a.jpg

[Parkbandit]

Ad hominem doesn't mean that you've hurt my feelings, or for that matter that you've generated any emotional response. (As usual, you seriously overestimate your ability to instigate and interpret emotions.) Ad hominem means that rather than addressing my claims, you address me. If you can't see how you do this (all the time and in your last post in particular), I don't know what to tell you.

edit: this post addressed to PB.

My point was that you drew your conclusions based upon absolutely zero experience in managing anything and your narrow minded political view. Had Obama and Palin's positions been reversed, you would claim that being the Governor of Alaska is a far more difficult job.

[4a6c1]

DONT HURT HIS FEELINGS!!

(he might paint his toenails black. black is ugly.)

[Tisket]

(he might paint his toenails black. black is ugly.)

Step back. I like his toenails.

[diethx]

black is ugly.

Racist.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

My point was that you drew your conclusions based upon absolutely zero experience in managing anything and your narrow minded political view. Had Obama and Palin's positions been reversed, you would claim that being the Governor of Alaska is a far more difficult job.

Mmm.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Wb7gmBhM3z4/ST6CxL-Vr2I/AAAAAAAABEg/bwLdlkyZjzM/s400/strawman.jpg

[Clove]

That aside, I don't see a response to my question, which I actually did hope you would answer.Tell that to Socrates. My point was that managing a city is less complicated for a variety of reasons, not the least of which that fewer governments and bureaus are subordinate to it. Population (or even area) really isn't an indication of the complexity of government.

I'm not sure how you're classifying Illinois as a "small" stateI didn't classify Illinois as anything and I think you need to re-read my response. I pointed out that Obama didn't have exceptional executive experience yet his legislative experience is being touted in this thread as superior to Palin's. I see it as an apples to oranges comparison. If you're not sure what it has to do with anything, then you aren't reading the dialogue.

I certainly wouldn't say being a Senator is more "demanding" than being a governor.Exactly.

[Tsa`ah]

Tell that to Socrates. My point was that managing a city is less complicated for a variety of reasons, not the least of which that fewer governments and bureaus are subordinate to it. Population (or even area) really isn't an indication of the complexity of government.

When the sum total of your state's population is 8.3 to 31% (top four most populated cities), that argument is nearly impossible to make ... especially when you consider that there are likely more NY city employees than Alaskan residents.

If anything, the Alaskan state government should be several times more efficient than any city government in the top 9 most populated. Just because there are more departments doesn't mean it's more complex.

[Clove]

When the sum total of your state's population is 8.3 to 31% (top four most populated cities), that argument is nearly impossible to make ... especially when you consider that there are likely more NY city employees than Alaskan residents.

If anything, the Alaskan state government should be several times more efficient than any city government in the top 9 most populated. Just because there are more departments doesn't mean it's more complex.It doesn't? So then just because a goverment has more constituents... employees... doesn't make it more complex either?

[Tsa`ah]

It doesn't? So then just because a goverment has more constituents... employees... doesn't make it more complex either?

A budget to budget comparison would probably indicate the opposite.

[Clove]

A budget to budget comparison would probably indicate the opposite.Ah so the bigger the budget the more complicated it is. Lets use this logic to compare Kuwait's government to the United States'.

[Tsa`ah]

Ah so the bigger the budget the more complicated it is. Lets use this logic to compare Kuwait's government to the United States'.

I honestly can't believe you're trying to argue this.

How many school districts does the state of Alaska have compared to the number of school districts in NY, NY? How many police departments, hospitals, government offices?

You're stretching for straw pulling out another country, with a completely unrelated system of government, to make a US state vs city comparison.

Size is only one factor of the budget ... the intricacies of where the money goes happens to be the substance. When you have 40 police precincts and areas (not counting state or county) vs 166, the larger figure is going to complicate governance a great deal more ... and that's just NYPD.

I think you're just arguing to argue at this point, not because of what was said, but by whom it was said. Only a fool could make your argument with a straight face.

[CrystalTears]

And I can't believe that scoffing at being a governor of ANY state is being done in the first place.

If the person in question was generally liked was governor of Alaska, this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

[Clove]

I honestly can't believe you're trying to argue this.

How many school districts does the state of Alaska have compared to the number of school districts in NY, NY? How many police departments, hospitals, government offices?I can't believe you're trying to argue this. Did you give up on the economic comparison? Okay, fine, how many permanently active National Guard battallions is the mayor of NYC commander in chief?

The simple fact is that city governments are subordinate to state governments which should indicate (even to you) which requires more responsibility.

[Tsa`ah]

And I can't believe that scoffing at being a governor of ANY state is being done in the first place.

If the person in question was generally liked was governor of Alaska, this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

I'd hardly call what Palin did actual governing considering she barely served half a term ... and state legislators from both parties were sporting "Where's Sara" buttons well before she accepted the VP nomination and began campaigning.

It was very scoffable.

[CrystalTears]

It doesn't matter what anyone says in defense because people don't like Palin. If Obama was the one who was governor of Alaska for two years when he decided to run for president, this discussion would be going a lot differently.

I just think it's a waste of time to say that being governor in Alaska is small potatoes when no one here has the knowledge of what that job entails so it's just speculation based on it being a lower population state. It's pretty pathetic of an argument.

[Tsa`ah]

I can't believe you're trying to argue this. Did you give up on the economic comparison? Okay, fine, how many permanently active National Guard battallions is the mayor of NYC commander in chief?

The simple fact is that city governments are subordinate to state governments which should indicate (even to you) which requires more responsibility.

Where did I give up on the economic?

Hell, the NYPD budget is about half of Alaska's state budget.

You're seriously trying to suggest that because the Alaskan national guard was under the command of Palin (which it wasn't during the entirety of her governorship), less than 2000 soldiers, that she held more responsibility? That her job was more intricate than the Mayor of NY who is in charge of a dept more than 20x the size?

Now you're really stretching for the imaginary.

[Tsa`ah]

It doesn't matter what anyone says in defense because people don't like Palin. If Obama was the one who was governor of Alaska for two years when he decided to run for president, this discussion would be going a lot differently.

Do people not like Palin without reason? I think there's been plenty of evidence behind the general disdain. The notion you present is a stretch considering the amount of Obama bashing that goes on in this forum alone.


I just think it's a waste of time to say that being governor in Alaska is small potatoes when no one here has the knowledge of what that job entails so it's just speculation based on it being a lower population state. It's pretty pathetic of an argument.

One doesn't need an intimate knowledge of the job to comment on it. You may as well suggest that no one can mock the difficulties of being a super model since no one here is one.

[Clove]

Where did I give up on the economic?

Hell, the NYPD budget is about half of Alaska's state budget.

You're seriously trying to suggest that because the Alaskan national guard was under the command of Palin (which it wasn't during the entirety of her governorship), less than 2000 soldiers, that she held more responsibility? That her job was more intricate than the Mayor of NY who is in charge of a dept more than 20x the size?

Now you're really stretching for the imaginary.First of all you're factually wrong Palin, as Governor of Alaska was commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard. This put her in command of the 49th Battallion which operates this country's first-line anti-ballistic missile defense. This also required her to receive national security briefings. A unique position among United States governors.

Second of all you have been hopping from point, to point, to point since you began. Since economy plays such a heavy role in the complexity of government that must make Kuwait a fairly complicated government, doesn't it?

You're implying that because a state has a small population or budget that it doesn't carry with it as much responsibility as a city with a larger population or budget, which is patently absurd. Witness former President Clinton, former Governor of Arkansas: population 2.3 million (in 1996).

Tsa'ah, I don't normally recommend this but you really ought to stop trying to think. You'd actually get better results if you practiced a Zen approach.

[CrystalTears]

One doesn't need an intimate knowledge of the job to comment on it. You may as well suggest that no one can mock the difficulties of being a super model since no one here is one.I never said that you can't have an opinion. I'm saying that touting her experience as crap because Alaska is a small population state as opposed to some other state is pretty absurd, since no one here has governor experience to make that kind of claim. You can speculate, but you have no idea what it takes.

[AnticorRifling]

One doesn't need an intimate knowledge of the job to comment on it. You may as well suggest that no one can mock the difficulties of being a super model since no one here is one. You're obviously forgetting the time I spent as a tshirt model.

[Latrinsorm]

My point was that you drew your conclusions based upon absolutely zero experience in managing anything and your narrow minded political view.First, this does not make them incorrect. This is why ad hominem arguments are irrational - they have no bearing on what is actually said. Second, though it pains me to even address this, you are factually incorrect.
Had Obama and Palin's positions been reversed, you would claim that being the Governor of Alaska is a far more difficult job.I did not claim that being the Senator of Illinois was any more difficult. I explicitly said "I certainly wouldn't say being a Senator is more "demanding" than being a governor."
I pointed out that Obama didn't have exceptional executive experience yet his legislative experience is being touted in this thread as superior to Palin's.I don't recall any of those posts, no. Out of curiosity, with whom is the dialog?
It doesn't matter what anyone says in defense because people don't like Palin.I like Gv. Palin! :(
I just think it's a waste of time to say that being governor in Alaska is small potatoes when no one here has the knowledge of what that job entails so it's just speculation based on it being a lower population state. It's pretty pathetic of an argument.It's not just "lower", it's barely a tenth of the size (for NYC comparisons). I don't think it's pathetic to speculate that has some impact.

[Clove]

Second, though it pains me to even address this, you are factually incorrect.I did not claim that being the Senator of Illinois was any more difficult. I explicitly said "I certainly wouldn't say being a Senator is more "demanding" than being a governor."Semantics, explain how "demanding" and "difficult" are significantly different in meaning.
I don't recall any of those posts, no. Out of curiosity, with whom is the dialog?Then you should pay attention to whom I'm quoting when responding to my comment. Mikalmas.
I don't think it's pathetic to speculate that has some impact.I do because it's an apples to oranges comparison. Running a city, even an extremely large city isn't the same at all. As I've pointed out it is a lower hierarchy. Interestingly, even though NYC and LA both have significantly larger populations than many states, there has never been mayor of either city to hold the Presidency. In fact the only Presidents that were formerly mayors were Grover Cleveland (Buffalo, NY) Calvin Coolidge (Northampton, MA) and Andrew Johnson (Greenville, TN).

Using the argument "that state isn't as difficult to run because it doesn't have as much x" is 5 year-old reasoning. My daddy is better than your daddy because he's bigger.

[CrystalTears]

It's not just "lower", it's barely a tenth of the size (for NYC comparisons). I don't think it's pathetic to speculate that has some impact.No, it's ridiculous to assume that a smaller state means less of a governorship (heh, is that a word?). If you want to say that her job while a governor was bad, that's a fair argument to have. But it's not fair to assume that a lower population state is less of a job than one in another state.

[Clove]

No, it's ridiculous to assume that a smaller state means less of a governorship (heh, is that a word?). If you want to say that her job while a governor was bad, that's a fair argument to have. But it's not fair to assume that a lower population state is less of a job than one in another state.Well I don't know. Biden was Senator of a bullshit state, Delaware...

[Latrinsorm]

Semantics, explain how "demanding" and "difficult" are significantly different in meaning.The significant difference is that I do not consider the position of Senator (state or U.S.) to be at all comparable to the position of Governor. What I do think are comparable are communities of people, regardless of the label attached to them. As a consequence of this, I think it's reasonable to infer difficulty of governance from things like lack of homogeneity, amount of people, etc. It's easier to herd 5 cats than 5 million.
Running a city, even an extremely large city isn't the same at all. As I've pointed out it is a lower hierarchy.And as I've pointed out, NYC has significant amounts of infrastructure that edge against or even override state-level control. It's not like I'm saying Bridgeport is comparable.
Interestingly, even though NYC and LA both have significantly larger populations than many states, there has never been mayor of either city to hold the Presidency. In fact the only Presidents that were formerly mayors were Grover Cleveland (Buffalo, NY) Calvin Coolidge (Northampton, MA) and Andrew Johnson (Greenville, TN).There's only been 18 elected mayors of modern NYC, though. There have been hundreds of governors in the same span, 0 for 18 is pretty close to 17 for 800. LA is a pile of festering garbage, you'll get no argument from me on that point. (I could argue that because running NYC is so much more taxing, politicians get burned out and are unable to seek the Presidency with the vigor former Governors possess. That would be overly hypothetical, but it's not like that ever stopped me before, right?)
But it's not fair to assume that a lower population state is less of a job than one in another state.Clove, feel free to jump in on this question as well: If you had to assume any state executive position in the United States without reneging on any of your current obligations (work, family, etc.), you're seriously telling me you wouldn't take on Governor of Delaware or Alaska over Governor of California? (Neglecting travel from wherever you are now.)

[Parkbandit]

And I can't believe that scoffing at being a governor of ANY state is being done in the first place.

If the person in question was a liberal governor of Alaska, this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

Corrected for accuracy.

[Parkbandit]

Do people not like Palin without reason? I think there's been plenty of evidence behind the general disdain. The notion you present is a stretch considering the amount of Obama bashing that goes on in this forum alone.


She had the highest approval rating of any Governor before the liberal media started beating up on her. Even when she left office, she still had 70% approval rating.



I don't need an intimate knowledge of the job to comment on it. I CAN JUST GOOGLE IT OR MAKE IT UP AS I GO ALONG!

Bingo.

[Clove]

Clove, feel free to jump in on this question as well: If you had to assume any state executive position in the United States without reneging on any of your current obligations (work, family, etc.), you're seriously telling me you wouldn't take on Governor of Delaware or Alaska over Governor of California? (Neglecting travel from wherever you are now.)I would definitely take on California, the pussy is infinitely better.

[webbyweb]

it she her political metal...she does not even deserved the governorship of Alaska.

[Daniel]

The Clove\CT tag team of stupidity is well on display here.

[Gan]

So if its ok to consider size and complexity of internal components when debating leadership experience, then why is it not ok to compare size and complexity of internal components when discussing the feasability of universal healthcare?

Countries such as Switzerland, UK, Canada are all touted as ZOMG GREAT EXAMPLES OF UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE, we should do that here! And yet they are all vastly different from the US with regards to size and internal complexity of internal components (republic of states, population, divisions of federal/state/local governments, etc.).

[Back]

Sure. We are America. We can do it better than anyone else.

[Gan]

Sure. We are America. We can do it better than anyone else.

I'm going to use that as my next business model...

[Parkbandit]

Sure. We are America. We can do it better than anyone else.

Isn't that exactly the reasoning behind the abysmal failure of universal healthcare, Socialism and eventually Communism. "But we're going to do it better than anyone else!"

[Daniel]

So if its ok to consider size and complexity of internal components when debating leadership experience, then why is it not ok to compare size and complexity of internal components when discussing the feasability of universal healthcare?

Countries such as Switzerland, UK, Canada are all touted as ZOMG GREAT EXAMPLES OF UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE, we should do that here! And yet they are all vastly different from the US with regards to size and internal complexity of internal components (republic of states, population, divisions of federal/state/local governments, etc.).

It's one thing to consider something. It is not okay to use it as an excuse to entirely disregard models that have been shown to be successful.

[Back]

Isn't that exactly the reasoning behind the abysmal failure of universal healthcare, Socialism and eventually Communism. "But we're going to do it better than anyone else!"

Why do you hate America?

[Gan]

It's one thing to consider something. It is not okay to use it as an excuse to entirely disregard models that have been shown to be successful.

I would agree with you in this case if the models were comparable in even the remotest sense and if there is time to review feasability studies of its application. However...

[Gan]

Why do you hate America?

And we have delivery.

[TheEschaton]

I resent Back's posts as being taken as anything but his own brand of idiotic drivel, especially when you use his posts to somehow "show" our points are invalid.

Oh, and STFU Back.

[CrystalTears]

The Clove\CT tag team of stupidity is well on display here.Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing to the conversation other than to be an egotistical troll.