Is war necessary?

[4a6c1]

.

[Androidpk]

Not to Switzerland it is, they've gone over 2 centuries without it.

[Miscast]

Necessary? No. Inevitable? Yes.

[Gan]

War is only necessary because other states/leaders think it necessary, for whatever reason. So by defense, war is necessary to the states that must defend against those who would do war against others.

If nobody thought war was necessary, then it really wouldnt be necessary.

The same answer could be given for the question: Is violence necessary...

[Back]

Nope, not necessary. But it sure is fun! Haven’t you ever played Risk?

PS. No, there is no justifiable reason for a peoples to take up arms and kill another peoples.

[radamanthys]

Nope, not necessary. But it sure is fun! Haven’t you ever played Risk?

PS. No, there is no justifiable reason for a peoples to take up arms and kill another peoples.

What about to prevent the deaths of many others?

[Back]

What about to prevent the deaths of many others?

Thats what I meant when I said there is no justifiable reason for a peoples to kill another peoples. The antagonist in your scenario is not justified for killing people in the first place.

But yes the question is far more complicated than that and not “is war justified”.

Is it “necessary”? One would think not as it is counter to what life is all about. But you’re right... it just may be necessary to preserve life.

[Jayvn]

On a side note..the movie Hero was pretty damn good.

[Back]

On a side note..the movie Hero was pretty damn good.

Agreed. A bit drawn out but really great.

[Jayvn]

We wouldn't have much of an existance if we didn't have things worth fighting/dying for. Everything would just be sort of gray feeling...

p.s. I'm going to war with anyone who says it's grey.

[Gan]

Grey

[Mabus]

Sometimes we must make war on the "ten thousand things" within ourselves. Sometimes we must stand up to the oppression of others. Sometimes we need to defend truth.

"Whenever you advise a ruler in the way of Tao, counsel him not to use force to conquer the universe. For this would only cause resistance. Thorn bushes spring up wherever the army has passed. Lean years follow in the wake of war. Just do what needs to be done. Never take advantage of power… Force is followed by loss of strength. This is not the way of Tao. That which goes against the Tao comes to an early end." -Tao Te Ching (Gia Fu Feng translation)

"Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one... himself." -Siddhartha Buddha

But I agree that "Risk" can be one hell of a game!
;)

[Tisket]

So a monk at my vihara asked me a question last Friday and I'm not sure how to word my answer without hurting his feelings.

I can't decide if you're the water running over the rock, or the rock itself. It's all very zen, but let's face it, Buddhists are pussies. :P

Anyway, why would he be hurt by your opinion about the subject?

[Stanley Burrell]

It's obviously necessary because in Fallout 3 everything is kaboomed and dead and radioactive but you still have to go to war with the supermutants, feral ghouls and slavers. And blow up Megaton.

http://crispen.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/06/fallout3.jpg

"But War, War Never Changes."

[ViridianAsp]

Nope, not necessary. But it sure is fun! Haven’t you ever played Risk?

PS. No, there is no justifiable reason for a peoples to take up arms and kill another peoples.



My thing is, what if they are killing your people? Should you just stand there and wait to be the next one shot, blowed up, ect.?

If people take measures to try and attack you, you have every right to attack them back. I'd say, it's like money... a necessary evil.

Is it right that people should have so much hate in their hearts that they feel the only way to become the superior this...or the powerful that...No, it isn't. But it hasn't changed, we're more or less animals, ones who have the ability to take a territorial instinct to a whole other level.

It will never change, ever.

[Back]

I can't decide if you're the water running over the rock, or the rock itself. It's all very zen, but let's face it, Buddhists are pussies. :P

Anyway, why would he be hurt by your opinion about the subject?

The tea cup runeth all over.


But yeah, why would you pull punches with a freaking monk?

[Back]

My thing is, what if they are killing your people? Should you just stand there and wait to be the next one shot, blowed up, ect.?

If people take measures to try and attack you, you have every right to attack them back. I'd say, it's like money... a necessary evil.

Is it right that people should have so much hate in their hearts that they feel the only way to become the superior this...or the powerful that...No, it isn't. But it hasn't changed, we're more or less animals, ones who have the ability to take a territorial instinct to a whole other level.

It will never change, ever.

I would agree that defense is more justifiable than antagonistic genocide.

But this discussion is about necessity.

One view might be that war is necessary against evil, otherwise known as sociopathy.

[Methais]

"But War, War Never Changes."

O RLY?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnbKOboT5wQ

[Ignot]

I think war is either necessary or it's not...there is no in between. Who is to say that a nation's reason for war isn't justified?

[radamanthys]

I think war is either necessary or it's not...there is no in between. Who is to say that a nation's reason for war isn't justified?

I believe that's been our prerogative for the past few years.

[4a6c1]

I can't decide if you're the water running over the rock, or the rock itself. It's all very zen, but let's face it, Buddhists are pussies. :P

Anyway, why would he be hurt by your opinion about the subject?

Eh, I take classes. We meditate and then we talk as a group. I have like ZERO tact when it comes to morale issues like this. My opinions just come out like righteous god-throwup and I cant help it. The only way I can stop it is by not opening my mouth at all. So I've had a week to think about it. 9 hours and counting.

I would like to alter my opinion in truth and I was hoping this fuckfuck group of eclectic opinions would give me the fire of an idea.

Basically I'm still where I started. I think anyone who dosnt fight for what they stand for deserves to die. But how in gods name would I tell a Tibetan that? I really care for this person. When I look at him I dont see natural selection at work, I see the best of myself, the best of humanity.

Maybe some people just arent capable of war? But does that mean there should be pacifists and killers to every society? If some people arent capable of war, maybe there are some people not capable of good. Maybe we should put guns in their hands, gps on thier ankles and put them to work.

Or, if none of this even matters, then extremes dont belong in the world. Are pacifists and killers are equally out of place? It cant be one without the other.

Damnit. Still bad. Maybe I should just not go.

[Solkern]

I think the quote is like this?
War creates peace, Peace creates war.

[Goretawn]

The quote is:

Without war there can be no peace.

War is a product of emotion, most notably hatred, anger and greed. As it stands, every human being has the capability and continue to have these emotions. The only way to stop war is to stop feeling emotions. This is not possible. So, war will continue until everyone is labotamized, or the miracle pill comes. Then again, do we want to live in a society without emotion? I think love is a great thing. Happiness is a great thing. So, for anyone to truely be happy, war is a necessity.

Wow, does that sound like a bunch of worthless shit or what?

[Tisket]

I would like to alter my opinion in truth and I was hoping this fuckfuck group of eclectic opinions would give me the fire of an idea.

Well if the basic tenets of Buddhism are:

1. Accept that there is suffering in the world.
2. Accept that suffering is caused by people's selfishness
3. Agree that ending that selfishness would end suffering.
4. Be as selfless as possible.

Then war is a selfish enterprise. Perhaps regardless of whatever "reason" its being waged over.

Just trying to think of what his argument might be to counter whatever you bring to the discussion.

[Tisket]

Damnit. Still bad. Maybe I should just not go.

Don't be a pussy. Go. Exchanges of ideas and opinions aren't something you should hide from.

[ElvenFury]

I'd say that sacrificing your life to save another is a rather selfless thing to do. Possibly one of the only truly selfless acts that we are capable of, since almost any action can be seen as selfish from at least one perspective.

We can't change others; we can only change ourselves. If you accept that there are people out there who do evil deeds, then you have two choices before you. Either stand up and do your best to stop that evil person's deeds, or stay seated and let someone else take care of it. Doesn't that make true pacifism selfish?

[ViridianAsp]

I think the quote is like this?
War creates peace, Peace creates war.

Pride, Selfishness and greed create war. In my mind, there really isn't a true all encompassing peace. You take the bits of peace you're given and make the best of it.

We're all far too selfish for any true peace to ever work...actually peace only works if everyone is dead...

God damn my posts sound way too pessimistic.

[Tea & Strumpets]

So a monk at my vihara asked me a question last Friday and I'm not sure how to word my answer without hurting his feelings. Tomorrow is Friday and we will probably talk about it again.

I want to know what you all think.

He's only asking you because he already knows your opinion, and after you tell him your opinion that he is already aware of, he'll feel superior because he is ever so selfless compared to you, war-monger.

I'm cynical though, so I could be wrong. I just think it's retarded to espouse a way of life that is ultimately self-destructive (complete pacifism). Even the relocated Tibet govt. in India was only possible because that llama dude was getting assistance from 3 countries that are willing to fight (India, Britain, and the US).

[radamanthys]

Pride, Selfishness and greed create war. In my mind, there really isn't a true all encompassing peace. You take the bits of peace you're given and make the best of it.

We're all far too selfish for any true peace to ever work...actually peace only works if everyone is dead...

God damn my posts sound way too pessimistic.

It's not necessarily selfishness. There's a finite amount of resources this planet can offer. Who can blame the man who wants to feed his family at the exclusion of another?

Another way peace will work is with 'material/food replicators'. A technocratic system that eliminates the need to provide basic amenities. It would also require the elimination of disparate social groups- races, genders, religions, colors, creeds. We'd have to homogenize.

The more I think of the true nature of war, the more I think of Star Trek. We, humanity as a whole, could really use a common enemy.

[Back]

The more I think of the true nature of war, the more I think of Star Trek. We, humanity as a whole, could really use a common enemy.

We already do. Ourselves.

[radamanthys]

We already do. Ourselves.

It's each other. It's the differences that create wars, not the similarities.

[Back]

It's each other. It's the differences that create wars, not the similarities.

You make the case that its more semantics than anything else.

[radamanthys]

You make the case that its more semantics than anything else.

That what is more semantics?

[Back]

We, humanity as a whole, could really use a common enemy.


We already do. Ourselves.


It's each other. It's the differences that create wars, not the similarities.


You make the case that its more semantics than anything else.


That what is more semantics?

That there is a difference in calling humanity’s enemy each other and not ourselves?

Unless I misunderstood you.

[radamanthys]

That there is a difference in calling humanity’s enemy each other and not ourselves?

Unless I misunderstood you.

Killing 'ourselves' means that the actions we take are actively leading to our downfall as a species. That war is a byproduct of our choices and not necessarily our nature. Loosely, I can prevent my own suicide.

Killing 'each other' means that social/societal differences are what causes war. That societal differences are the root cause. That it is, in effect, our nature. Loosely, I can't prevent my own murder.

[Back]

Semantics.

[radamanthys]

Semantics.

In the sense that words convey meaning, and different words convey different meanings, and different combinations of words can imply vastly different ideas, yes, it was semantics.

It was a semantic error on your part that I was correcting. Then, in response, it was used to reinforce my point.

[Back]

In the sense that words convey meaning, and different words convey different meanings, and different combinations of words can imply vastly different ideas, yes, it was semantics.

It was a semantic error on your part that I was correcting. Then, in response, it was used to reinforce my point.

lol. We agree, yet you refuse to admit it.

Maybe its just me. I don’t blame you. I get all kinds of shit for being a “nice guy”.

[Jayvn]

The lyrics to one of my favorite songs...


As down the glen one Easter morn to a city fair rode I
There Armed lines of marching men in squadrons passed me by
No fife did hum nor battle drum did sound it's dread tatoo
But the Angelus bell o'er the Liffey swell rang out through the foggy dew

Right proudly high over Dublin Town they hung out the flag of war
'Twas better to die 'neath an Irish sky than at Sulva or Sud El Bar
And from the plains of Royal Meath strong men came hurrying through
While Britannia's Huns, with their long range guns sailed in through the foggy dew

'Twas Britannia bade our Wild Geese go that small nations might be free
But their lonely graves are by Sulva's waves or the shore of the Great North Sea
Oh, had they died by Pearse's side or fought with Cathal Brugha
Their names we will keep where the fenians sleep 'neath the shroud of the foggy dew

But the bravest fell, and the requiem bell rang mournfully and clear
For those who died that Eastertide in the springing of the year
And the world did gaze, in deep amaze, at those fearless men, but few
Who bore the fight that freedom's light might shine through the foggy dew

Ah, back through the glen I rode again and my heart with grief was sore
For I parted then with valiant men whom I never shall see more
But to and fro in my dreams I go and I'd kneel and pray for you,
For slavery fled, O glorious dead, When you fell in the foggy dew.

[Tisket]

Jesus. Backlash's comprehension of the written word is HORRIBLE. It almost feels as though there should be some kind of after school special dedicated to the problem.

[Valakhan]

Yes.

[Gan]

:lol:

[RichardCranium]

Oil.

[Gan]

Water

[radamanthys]

Water

Cole Slaw

[ElanthianSiren]

tig ole bitties and the freedom to display them in public.

That's the real reason canada will never join the US.

[AestheticLife]

War gives desperate husbands the opportunity to escape their nagging, aging wives long enough to appreciate them. Thusly, it provides more for a struggling relationship than Dr. Phil's balding ass.

War ALSO spawns thousands of desperate housewives on a yearly basis. Thusly, it provides more for the sex life of a non-threatening, sleazy white male in his mid twenties.

In short: Yes, it is necessary.

[radamanthys]

tig ole bitties and the freedom to display them in public.

That's the real reason canada will never join the US.

I'm all for the tigs being free.

[radamanthys]

War gives desperate husbands the opportunity to escape their nagging, aging wives long enough to appreciate them. Thusly, it provides more for a struggling relationship than Dr. Phil's balding ass.

War ALSO spawns thousands of desperate housewives on a yearly basis. Thusly, it provides more for the sex life of a non-threatening, sleazy white male in his mid twenties.

In short: Yes, it is necessary.

From what I hear, the vietnam war rallies were a great place to pick up chicks, too.

[4a6c1]

Friday went as I expected it would go, except I greatly underestimated the mental fortitude of this guy. (Tisket was right, I was being a pussy.) I said everything I knew I would say, and more unsensitive nonsense besides. He said something weird and it took our conversation in a completely different direction.

Ok. Somewhat boring history lesson time.

Siddharta's father had an Army and men kept leaving the Army to become monks. After speaking to his benevolent father, Siddhartha saw that an Army of the State was necessary if held for defense of the people and so he decreed that men who had not been properly discharged from the Army having already served their terms could not abandon the Army to become monks prematurely. These two very opposite factions of state coexisted like this for hundreds of years. Supposedly this was still true up until the Reds came along.

So this guy answered pretty much all of my questions and that story was just the beginning of a whole nother line of thought that we ended up talking about which I cannot remember now because the mojitos afterwards left me dumb and without religion or brains.

Cheers! :beer:

edited to add:


He's only asking you because he already knows your opinion, and after you tell him your opinion that he is already aware of, he'll feel superior because he is ever so selfless compared to you, war-monger.


I suspect you are brilliantly correct.

[Valakhan]

From what I hear, the vietnam war rallies were a great place to pick up chicks, too.

Hairy ones?

[radamanthys]

Hairy ones?

Occasionally, I'm sure. I wasn't there.

[Tisket]

Slight bump. I heard from a friend this morning that Japanese Buddhist monks were not allowed to eat any meat other than birds, but liked rabbit meat so much they came up with the explanation that rabbits are actually birds, and that their ears are unusable wings.

I don't know if this is true nor do I care. But it did make me laugh. Just not enough to create a new thread. Now go ask your monk friend if it's true!

[Dhuul]

The PC is 10% emo?!?!?! only?!?!?!?!

[Tisket]

The PC is 10% emo?!?!?! only?!?!?!?!

Quit abusing punctuation, asshole.

[Dhuul]

/wrist

[Dhuul]

For the record I am Tsin. And you all should be bidding!

[Tisket]

aha! So this rep comment was from you:


Is war necessary? 06-24-2009 09:55 PM buddhism is good it helps me focus my chi --GRAND LORD TSIN

I knew it.

[Dhuul]

Duh, how else could I sign rep as Tsin. I am Tsin. Bow down to me, kthx

[4a6c1]

HAHAHA. I KNEW IT.

Show me your penis.

[Dhuul]

HelllllllllllllllooooooooooOOOO!!

[Stanley Burrell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEVXWs2k4Xs

[4a6c1]

I'm allergic to hiphop. Thanks Stan. ONCE AGAIN, you have given me hives.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm allergic to hiphop. Thanks Stan. ONCE AGAIN, you have given me hives.

JIHNA, NOOOOO!

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6508/beehive.gif

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm not sure where I was going with that one; hives, beehives? Wu-Tang Killa Bees, yo?

Something.