Liberal states are the least free.

[radamanthys]

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/free_states_study/2009/05/06/211385.html?utm_medium=RSS

“The problem is that the cultural values of liberal governments seem on balance to require more regulation of individual behavior than do the cultural values of conservative governments,” say the study’s authors. “While liberal states are freer than conservative states on marijuana and same-sex partnership policies, when it comes to gun owners, home schoolers, motorists, or smokers, liberal states are nanny states, while conservative states are more tolerant.”

Makes sense.

[Bobmuhthol]

Living on the New Hampshire border in Massachusetts is awesome for this reason. Let me just avoid paying sales tax and higher property taxes at the same time, tyvm.

[Liagala]

Living on the New Hampshire border in Massachusetts is awesome for this reason. Let me just avoid paying sales tax and higher property taxes at the same time, tyvm.

This. It's an awesome setup.

[Mtenda]

This whole idea that "liberals" want fewer personal freedoms and more government control is getting so tired. I get offended as someone who tends to vote liberal on most issues. It's really just a fundamental difference in philosophy about what should be regulated. Tolerance? That's laughable. Get rid of the extremist bible thumpers in your party and you will have an argument.



I don't speak for all left wingers but here is my general "liberal" point of view on some issues-

Marijuana - Look at the history and facts. Makes no sense why it should be regulated in the way that it is now. I blame religion and propaganda.

Marriage - Seperation of church and state. Duh. Religion dominating the Republican party is the problem here.

Guns - Whether you believe people kill people or guns kill people it's not good if people have the "right" to stand on their rooftop firing semi-automatic weapons or if gangs are building armies with war weapons. To be clear, I am only for more gun regulation rather than all out bans.

Home Schoolers - To me this is dangerous because it builds more walls in our society as kids don't get to see, experience, and respect cultures outside of their own.

Motorists - I don't even know what this is referring to but I'll just say that many people don't seem to respect the power underneath them while driving.

Smoking - If people are going to choose to hurt themselves, why can't they be helping someone else at the same time?

Abortion - Regulate the shit out of it but don't ban it. Stem cell research is bad because it promotes abortion? I don't think many people use that as a justification to have an abortion. I think we can all agree that this is one of the hardest issues to come to an agreement on.

War - Only if it's absolutely necessary. And if it is, do it right. That said, we are where we are. Nuke everybody.



Nobody wants government breathing down their neck. I just want the government to regulate the things that are either most dangerous or that people have proven they cannot do responsibly in the past.

Stand by the slippery slope argument if you want but I have faith in the people's ability to vote and say that is enough already.

Different eras require different government tactics. This era needs some reassessment of regulation right now. Thankfully, we are getting that. Hope it works out for the best in the end.

[Androidpk]

Marijuana - Look at the history and facts. Makes no sense why it should be regulated in the way that it is now. I blame religion and propaganda.



While I agree that it makes no sense, I don't think religion really factors into why it is. I think other industries such as petrol and logging have had a greater impact.

[Androidpk]

Living on the New Hampshire border in Massachusetts is awesome for this reason. Let me just avoid paying sales tax and higher property taxes at the same time, tyvm.

I hear Mass wants to make it so people living in MA that shop in NH still pay MA taxes, don't see how they would be able to accomplish that though.

[Liagala]

I hear Mass wants to make it so people living in MA that shop in NH still pay MA taxes, don't see how they would be able to accomplish that though.

It's on the state tax form. You're supposed to keep track of your NH purchases and report them when you file so that you can pay appropriate tax.

[Deathravin]

Marijuana - Look at the history and facts. Makes no sense why it should be regulated in the way that it is now. I blame religion and propaganda.It's not or ever was religion. It was criminalized by the tobacco and logging industries, plain and simple.


Marriage - Seperation of church and state. Duh. Religion dominating the Republican party is the problem here.I never understood this. Your Religion tells you how YOU should act. It also tells you not to judge others. Ergo, the laws of the city, county, state, or nation shouldn't matter to you. Just as long as you live your own life by your religious moral compass, and try not to benefit by those you see as being deviant to those morals (eg. not taking a treatment based on stem cells from embryos etc).


Guns - Whether you believe people kill people or guns kill people it's not good if people have the "right" to stand on their rooftop firing semi-automatic weapons or if gangs are building armies with war weapons. To be clear, I am only for more gun regulation rather than all out bans.Too much regulation is a very bad thing. I doubt there'd be less gun violence if everybody had a conceal/carry, but banning them altogether is also a very very bad idea. There's a lot of things to consider, Honestly I think this is the hardest issue you've brought up.


Home Schoolers - To me this is dangerous because it builds more walls in our society as kids don't get to see, experience, and respect cultures outside of their own.Home schooled kids are strange. Part of the reason to go to school is to socialize. If you're going to home school your kids, at least put them in some sort of afternoon day care so they can socialize.


Motorists - I don't even know what this is referring to but I'll just say that many people don't seem to respect the power underneath them while driving./agree


Smoking - If people are going to choose to hurt themselves, why can't they be helping someone else at the same time?People go up one way and down another about 2nd hand smoke causing cancer etc. I honestly don't care about that. I do care about people with lung maladies (asthma, emphazma, etc) that can't go to restaurants or to public places just because there's smokers there. One small smell of smoke is enough to put many friends of mine into an asthma attack.


Abortion - Regulate the shit out of it but don't ban it. Stem cell research is bad because it promotes abortion? I don't think many people use that as a justification to have an abortion. I think we can all agree that this is one of the hardest issues to come to an agreement on.This is the same as the Marriage above IMO.


War - Only if it's absolutely necessary. And if it is, do it right. That said, we are where we are. Nuke everybody.I've never understood the true hypocrisy of the religious right on this one.


Nobody wants government breathing down their neck. I just want the government to regulate the things that are either most dangerous or that people have proven they cannot do responsibly in the past.

Stand by the slippery slope argument if you want but I have faith in the people's ability to vote and say that is enough already.

Different eras require different government tactics. This era needs some reassessment of regulation right now. Thankfully, we are getting that. Hope it works out for the best in the end.

If the Right's policy of leaving capitalism alone is based on that each company will regulate themselves, and not put greed above all else, then that is a very wrong assessment. Time and time again all you see is companies doing everything they can for every last dollar. Nothing matters but the bottom line.

[Bobmuhthol]

Yeah, the MA residents paying NH taxes thing is a joke. If you buy cigarettes or liquor in NH it's like half the price due to massive MA taxes; you could be stopped from taking it into MA as a MA resident, but who is going to sit at the border and do that?

[Mtenda]

You guys are right about the marijuana thing. I guess I just keep hearing my grandma saying "marijuana is the devil", "rock n' roll is devil music". I just question the social stances of those that declared a war on drugs and created the propaganda surrounding it. I admit I look to blame religion wherever possible though because of the way it was force fed to me as a kid.

[Back]

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/free_states_study/2009/05/06/211385.html?utm_medium=RSS

“The problem is that the cultural values of liberal governments seem on balance to require more regulation of individual behavior than do the cultural values of conservative governments,” say the study’s authors. “While liberal states are freer than conservative states on marijuana and same-sex partnership policies, when it comes to gun owners, home schoolers, motorists, or smokers, liberal states are nanny states, while conservative states are more tolerant.”

Makes sense.

Wow. I can’t believe that anyone accepts this as reality.

It’s about as accurate as saying “a new study has found that black is actually white, and white is actually black”.

[Gan]

Wow. I can’t believe that anyone accepts this as reality.

It’s about as accurate as saying “a new study has found that black is actually white, and white is actually black”.

Wow, I cant believe that anyone would expect you to say anything different.

:rofl:

[Back]

Wow, I cant believe that anyone would expect you to say anything different.

:rofl:

So you just readily believe this “study” at face value and accept it as reality. You don’t have any criticism at all with it?

[Gan]

So you just readily believe this “study” at face value and accept it as reality. You don’t have any criticism at all with it?

Of course! Because everything you read on the internet is the truth.

And I also find it hilarious that you're trying to call someone else out on their participation when you're participation is so in depth.

:lol:

[Back]

Of course! Because everything you read on the internet is the truth.

And I also find it hilarious that you're trying to call someone else out on their participation when you're participation is so in depth.

:lol:

I’m not trying to call you out, Gan. Just trying to reason with you for the billionth time. Your italics are understood.

I’ll grant you that I was not specific as to my criticism. Fair enough... this is where I think the study is complete bullshit.

How do you measure “freedom”?

If you are going to go issue by issue each have varying degrees. The right to own a gun is not the same as the right to smoke in a restaurant. If you try to assign a point scale to each issue then measure each state or city on that point scale the result is based entirely on that scale. Who makes up that scale?

Obviously, the (majority) people of any given state or city have a say in that state or city’s legislation. If most people in Virgina decide they want to smoke where ever they want they consider that a great freedom. The people in Virginia that disagree will see that as an infringement on their freedom. If most people in California decide pot should be legal for medical purposes they will see that as a great freedom. The people in California who disagree will see that as an infringement of their freedom.

[Warriorbird]

Taking liberal states as New York and California and Vermont or something this might make sense.

I'm afraid that the same can't be said of Virginia or North Carolina.

Y'all just lost.

It's about as valuable as saying 'conservative states are less educated' however. It isn't anything but divisive.

[Back]

The real message behind this bullshit “study”?

Democratic states are fascist.

Think about that for one second.

Slap chop it for two seconds. Add sour grapes, a huge helping of hypocrisy and a foot in mouth disease and thats what you get. Oxymoron casserole, anyone?

[radamanthys]

Freedom is not a measure of "freedom from". It's "freedom to".

So freedom from being discriminated against is just one form.
Freedom from having your values squashed is another, even if it infringes on the aforementioned.

Republicans see a strong police presence and say, "there's freedom"
Democrats see affirmative action and say, "there's freedom"

The lack of both... That's freedom.

[Kyra231]

Home schooled kids are strange. Part of the reason to go to school is to socialize. If you're going to home school your kids, at least put them in some sort of afternoon day care so they can socialize.


Interesting you assume children who are home schooled get less socialization. Define that, because going to sit in a classroom with 30-40 other kids while a teacher continuously tells you to STFU, sit down & don't move for 5 or 6 hours isn't the way normal adults 'socialize'.

I assume you're talking about smaller children since you mention enrolling them in daycare. At a young age you could easily take them to the park or on a play date & get their hour of socialization supervised by the parents instead of around an hour of recess supposedly supervised by some underpaid, doesn't give a shit playground monitor at the school.

[ElanthianSiren]

Interesting you assume children who are home schooled get less socialization. Define that, because going to sit in a classroom with 30-40 other kids while a teacher continuously tells you to STFU, sit down & don't move for 5 or 6 hours isn't the way normal adults 'socialize'.

I assume you're talking about smaller children since you mention enrolling them in daycare. At a young age you could easily take them to the park or on a play date & get their hour of socialization supervised by the parents instead of around an hour of recess supposedly supervised by some underpaid, doesn't give a shit playground monitor at the school.

Damn I can't rep you; :clap: instead.

Generally speaking, I believe the issue is more when something harms another person. Second hand smoke has been tied to everything from heart disease to the development of autoimmune disorders. I don't agree with prohibitions against guns, so I guess I differ with "liberals" there, but the study seems to have taken the most liberal agenda it could find and pitted it against the most conservative agenda it could find with a healthy bit of bias. Most people, however, aren't strictly liberal or conservative. :shrug:

[Warriorbird]

It's Newsmax...nobody who doesn't have a Republican bias already is likely to take it seriously.

[Ker_Thwap]

Sadly, NH is turning into MA north as all the liberal whiners move up and take over our once free state. It's just a matter of time before NH has a sales tax as well.

[Warriorbird]

I didn't think y'all's governor was in favor of a sales tax or gun control.

[Ker_Thwap]

It's more at a local level. NH has town meetings, we have open school board meetings, which are about the best thing in the world.

I'll give you two examples of MA vs. NH mentality. Our town of 3,000 has an elementary/middle school (grades 1-8), with an exceptional staff and a history of having among some of the brightest students in the state. There are about 20 kids per classroom. The building has a small gym that also serves as a cafeteria and auditorium. There is no overcrowding and the population of students is fairly consistent.

A couple of upscale neighborhoods were planned and built about 20 years ago. They were largely populated by refugees from Mass.

First example:

For the last 10 years, these families were very active in trying to get the town to raise taxes for a new gym, so the kids could better compete in inter-school athletics, and so they wouldn't have to stand along the sidelines when watching a basketball game. They failed, but not for lack of trying...

Instead what happened is that the conservative locals got together and created a private Youth Sports Center. Three baseball fields, two softball fields, two soccer fields, and a two sport fieldhouse. All with their own money, with donated private land, with no need to raise the taxes on the elderly residents of the town. It was built entirely by volunteers, and has a minimal pay to play structure. Your kid signs up for a rec. league sport, it's about $10 per sport.

Volunteers coach, mow the lawns and do the maintenance. You can guess which families volunteer to do the grunt work.

Second example: The new liberals campaigned for and got a town run daycare. Now the dual income people can get richer and not have to care for their own kids. Of course everyone pays for it. One of two private day care providers has since gone out of business. Hard to compete with free services.

Bottom line, MA liberals want society to care for their kids, NH conservatives raise their own kids.

NH Families take care of each other, neighborhoods take care of their own. When I first moved into the town 18 years ago, the old guy next door plowed our driveway for free when I was away at training for my job, just a few years ago I roofed his house for free. It's inspiring and self motivating to be self reliant instead of counting on the government to bail out our lazy asses.

I'm rambling now, that's enough.

[Stanley Burrell]

What is life without...



http://www.hotflick.net/flicks/1995_Braveheart/995BVH_Mel_Gibson_060.jpg

FREEDOM!!!!????????@?@?@?@?@@@222/?

[Deathravin]

Interesting you assume children who are home schooled get less socialization. Define that, because going to sit in a classroom with 30-40 other kids while a teacher continuously tells you to STFU, sit down & don't move for 5 or 6 hours isn't the way normal adults 'socialize'.

I assume you're talking about smaller children since you mention enrolling them in daycare. At a young age you could easily take them to the park or on a play date & get their hour of socialization supervised by the parents instead of around an hour of recess supposedly supervised by some underpaid, doesn't give a shit playground monitor at the school.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm making a broad generalization (bad, I know) about home-schooled children that I've seen in my own life. Thanks to my wife, I have 30 nieces and nephews, and I remember the children I grew up with and the ones that were home schooled and just came to spelling bees.

I was not talking about strictly younger children. A large part of the experience of going to school is to socialize, Learn the social acceptable norms, and yes, even get in a bit of trouble.

If a child, regardless of age, is being home schooled, they need this almost un-supervised time with other children. And they need somewhat of a lot of it. A daily place they can go where there's nothing else to do but be around other children is a large part of their development.

Parents who ignore this get strange kids that don't know how to react to many social situations.

[Kyra231]

I'm not assuming anything. I'm making a broad generalization (bad, I know) about home-schooled children that I've seen in my own life. Thanks to my wife, I have 30 nieces and nephews, and I remember the children I grew up with and the ones that were home schooled and just came to spelling bees.

I was not talking about strictly younger children. A large part of the experience of going to school is to socialize, Learn the social acceptable norms, and yes, even get in a bit of trouble.

If a child, regardless of age, is being home schooled, they need this almost un-supervised time with other children. And they need somewhat of a lot of it. A daily place they can go where there's nothing else to do but be around other children is a large part of their development.

Parents who ignore this get strange kids that don't know how to react to many social situations.

:rofl: Heaven forbid they not act like 3/4 of the fucktarded kids in public schools these days.

There are some homeschooling families, I'm sure, who don't provide healthy socialization opportunities or model socialization very well. You get those same families with kids in public school and the kids still have issues. That's not a function of homeschooling, that's just people. In any schooling community, you're going to get a range of basically healthy attitudes and a few outliers who just don't function well.

And there are kids in public and private schools who have serious socialization issues without any family issues as the cause. Again, it's the cart before the horse kind of thinking that attributes poor socialization or problems with socialization to homeschooling.

It's normal within the general population to have some people who are going to have inborn socialization issues, and some of them will be in public school, some will be in private school, some will be home schooled. Replace "socialization issues" with "peanut allergy" and you'd get the same picture but without the prejudice, you know?

Don't you remember plenty of kids in school who were just plain weird in their social interactions and hadn't home schooled? I certainly do. Shyness isn't about whether someone has home schooled or not - it's been found that genetics are definitely involved, and so much depends on what the family is like, even if children are in school.

[Back]

Liberal states are the... 05-09-2009 01:08 PM You may think you sound intelligent but everyone can tell you are pretty stupid.

Ayep. Never claimed to be smart. If I were smart I would not have to learn anything.

But you need to learn something. Like how not to be a coward and sign your name.

[Danical]

As a researcher, I naturally call bullshit on any so called "comprehensive study" that doesn't cite it's methodology and data collection/manipulation. Seriously?

Anyone have access to the actual study?

[Lumi]

:rofl: Heaven forbid they not act like 3/4 of the fucktarded kids in public schools these days.

There are some homeschooling families, I'm sure, who don't provide healthy socialization opportunities or model socialization very well. You get those same families with kids in public school and the kids still have issues. That's not a function of homeschooling, that's just people. In any schooling community, you're going to get a range of basically healthy attitudes and a few outliers who just don't function well.

And there are kids in public and private schools who have serious socialization issues without any family issues as the cause. Again, it's the cart before the horse kind of thinking that attributes poor socialization or problems with socialization to homeschooling.

It's normal within the general population to have some people who are going to have inborn socialization issues, and some of them will be in public school, some will be in private school, some will be home schooled. Replace "socialization issues" with "peanut allergy" and you'd get the same picture but without the prejudice, you know?

Don't you remember plenty of kids in school who were just plain weird in their social interactions and hadn't home schooled? I certainly do. Shyness isn't about whether someone has home schooled or not - it's been found that genetics are definitely involved, and so much depends on what the family is like, even if children are in school.

This. My girlfriend was homeschooled, and she had just about every kind of social experience I did growing up, except the actual school part.

Actually, she had some of that too, since she went to Hebrew school for some number of years. I don't have any statistics, but I imagine a good number of homeschooled children have "classroom experience" through religious education.

Regardless, there is really no causal relationship between social aptitude and method of schooling (home vs. social).

[Deathravin]

This. My girlfriend was homeschooled, and she had just about every kind of social experience I did growing up, except the actual school part.

Actually, she had some of that too, since she went to Hebrew school for some number of years. I don't have any statistics, but I imagine a good number of homeschooled children have "classroom experience" through religious education.

Regardless, there is really no causal relationship between social aptitude and method of schooling (home vs. social).

By this statement, she did have adequate socialization. My point is when a parent home schools a child and does not provide any socialization for the child. All the kid knows is the dynamics of their own household, and of the adults around them.

I'm not saying that all children that are home schooled are odd, but if you don't get them to interact on a very regular basis with other children they tend to not learn how to react to many social situations.

[Lumi]

By this statement, she did have adequate socialization. My point is when a parent home schools a child and does not provide any socialization for the child. All the kid knows is the dynamics of their own household, and of the adults around them.

I'm not saying that all children that are home schooled are odd, but if you don't get them to interact on a very regular basis with other children they tend to not learn how to react to many social situations.

Right. My point was, homeschooled kids aren't always hidden away from the rest of the world like they portrayed on South Park; in fact, I'd say a good number of them aren't (I've known a number of other home schoolers as well).

Not accusing you of claiming this, just clarifying my point. There might be a slightly higher-than-average correlation between home schooled and socially awkward kids, but it's not causal.

[radamanthys]

I'm torn on the whole "homeschooling" issue. What is free? Giving a parent the freedom to dictate the educational and social boundries of a child? Or giving that child the freedom to make the choice on their own?

It really should be the kid's choice, imho. But, both sides have merit and a valid argument.