In God We Trust

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/)

Frankly I'm not the most religious person in the world, but I do not believe this hurts anything. Much like the Pledge of Allegiance being stripped from schools, it's just another way to strip any national pride or patriotism in my mind.

Fucking liberals.

[Back]

Surreal Thursday continues...

Do you always get bent on stupid polls?

You don’t give a fuck but you really give a fuck?

Are you really that threatened by “liberals”?

[Keller]

You want people to be patriotic? Actually teach civics, which isn't a part of most schools' mandatory classes. Teach kids about their role as citizens in a democracy, how it relates to American history--and people will more proud of who they are.

Agreed.

[Apotheosis]

...all others I pay cash.

[Methais]

Are you really that threatened by “liberals”?

I think he's more annoyed by their extreme gayness and vaginaism than threatened.


But did you, as a child, "feel anything" went you were forced by your school to drone the Pledge of Allegiance?

Actually the schools couldn't force you to recite the Pledge, which I remember finding out in 3rd 4th grade or so.

We did it anyway, because we actually like our country.

[Mabus]

Actually teach civics, which isn't a part of most schools' mandatory classes. Teach kids about their role as citizens in a democracy, how it relates to American history--and people will more proud of who they are.

At any rate, "In God We Trust" should absolutely be removed from government documents.
I can agree with both of those statements.

[LMingrone]

Just be glad you didn't go to a Catholic school where you had to recite the Pledge, Our Father, and Hail Mary every day. At the beginning and end of the day. And forced to go to church EVERY day. Oh, and the four hours of religion class ROCKED.

Honestly though, I think the Pledge is something everyone should know. Everyone also has the right to not recite it. It's really an argument no one can win. I think about it as a actions vs. words scenario. Just speaking some speech will never match acting as a good human being.

[Back]

I think he's more annoyed by their extreme gayness and vaginaism than threatened.

Part of the point.

Anyway, the Fed is a privately owned entity and will print whatever they God damn want on their money. No point in getting upset at some other entity over it.

[Clove]

What? This deserves to be a Wordle.

[Jorddyn]

Just be glad you didn't go to a Catholic school where you had to recite the Pledge, Our Father, and Hail Mary every day. At the beginning and end of the day. And forced to go to church EVERY day. Oh, and the four hours of religion class ROCKED.


Some of us did.

Of course, I was hell bent on getting out of there, so I graduated at 16 to save myself two more years of torture.

[Methais]

Some of us did.

Of course, I was hell bent on getting out of there, so I graduated at 16 to save myself two more years of torture.

But isn't accounting just another form of torture?

[Daniel]

I think he's more annoyed by their extreme gayness and vaginaism than threatened.



Actually the schools couldn't force you to recite the Pledge, which I remember finding out in 3rd 4th grade or so.

We did it anyway, because we actually like our country.

Unless or course it's "socialist" or does something that doesn't specifically advantage you or make you feel uncomfortable.

[Jorddyn]

But isn't accounting just another form of torture?

We in the accounting department DO the torturing.

[LMingrone]

Some of us did.

Of course, I was hell bent on getting out of there, so I graduated at 16 to save myself two more years of torture.

I was lucky too. School got shut down because the head priest, who ran the school, got caught stealing 500k in cash and sleeping with other dudes. (not that there's anything wrong with that)

[Methais]

Unless or course it's "socialist" or does something that doesn't specifically advantage you or make you feel uncomfortable.

There's a difference between the country itself...


...and the people running it:
http://cdnll-0.liveleak.com/u/thumbs/2008/Aug/8/1514036_579_avatar.jpg

[Daniel]

There's a difference between the country itself...


...and the people running it:


Imagine that.

[Clove]

Someone tell Backlash the Department of the Treasury prints our currency, not the Fed. No wait, I guess I just did that.

Here you go Back:

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/production.shtml

[Keller]

There's a difference between the country itself...


...and the people running it

I'm glad you finally realized this.

In 3 years and 370 days I hope you can say the same thing.

[Methais]

Imagine that.


We did it anyway, because we actually like our country.


Unless or course it's "socialist" or does something that doesn't specifically advantage you or make you feel uncomfortable.



There's a difference between the country itself...


...and the people running it:


Imagine that.

Imagine that.

[Parkbandit]

I'm probably the most anti-religious person you probably know.. but I think it should stay, mostly for the historical and traditional aspects of it.

[Stanley Burrell]

It's as if the word "God" is just ... A unisyllabic symbol (on our money).

To me ... eh, it doesn't strike me as anything but a few lines and curves of different-colored ink. And that's about it.

I guess if we have the free time to dwell on these things, it means that things can't be so terrible on our planet.

[Parkbandit]

So you support the hysterical insertions of religious amendments into actual historical, secular traditions like the Pledge of Allegiance.. despite being "the most anti-religious person I know."

If you were interested in the history, the tradition of it--you'd think you would want it restored to its original form, and not support the commie- scare "changes."

I know all about the history of the pledge, It, and I stand by my initial post.

It's my opinion.

[radamanthys]

I propose we put extremely insulting blasphemy on the back of the dollar. Something like, "In raptor jesus's name, amen", Or "God thinks about aborted fetuses when he practices autofellatio". "Pontius Pilate for President". Or, even... "C'thulhu f'htagn"

The presense of God on the dollar is insulting to (many) atheists, just as would be blasphemy.

[Jorddyn]

I propose we put extremely insulting blasphemy on the back of the dollar. Something like, "In raptor jesus's name, amen", Or "God thinks about aborted fetuses when he practices autofellatio". "Pontius Pilate for President". Or, even... "C'thulhu f'htagn"

The presense of God on the dollar is insulting to (many) atheists, just as would be blasphemy.

I really need to work on getting offended more easily. I wouldn't really care if it read "Jorddyn is an idiot" so long as it bought me stuff.

[LMingrone]

I propose we put extremely insulting blasphemy on the back of the dollar. Something like, "In raptor jesus's name, amen", Or "God thinks about aborted fetuses when he practices autofellatio". "Pontius Pilate for President". Or, even... "C'thulhu f'htagn"

The presense of God on the dollar is insulting to (many) atheists, just as would be blasphemy.

I'm all for putting the FSM on our bills. And Tom Cruise on our coins...yeah, Tom Cruise. Just for the entertainment of everyone flipping out.

[ClydeR]

Frankly I'm not the most religious person in the world, but I do not believe this hurts anything. Much like the Pledge of Allegiance being stripped from schools, it's just another way to strip any national pride or patriotism in my mind.

I thought some crazy doctor from California already went to court over that and lost.

[ClydeR]

I was lucky too. School got shut down because the head priest, who ran the school, got caught stealing 500k in cash and sleeping with other dudes. (not that there's anything wrong with that)

I'm not sure which thing you're saying is okay. Either way, I can assure you that both of them are wrong.

[LMingrone]

Agreed. Just using a stupid cliche. Both are true though.

[radamanthys]

I really need to work on getting offended more easily. I wouldn't really care if it read "Jorddyn is an idiot" so long as it bought me stuff.

Umm... GAAP is for queers. That work? No?

uh... SOX should be repealed cuz CPAs are stupid and don't deserve money?

Meh. Insult Fail.

[kookiegod]

Ummm...

If you don't want to recite the Pledge of Allegiance to our great nation, feel free to leave.

I get upset when people talk and/or don't stand during the Star Spangled Banner.

"One nation under God" was what the people who fought and died for to give us the freedoms we have today.

Unbelievable.

~Paul

[Jorddyn]

Umm... GAAP is for queers. That work? No?


Nope. I have swear words for trying to reconcile our cost based accounting with GAAP on a very frequent basis.


uh... SOX should be repealed cuz CPAs are stupid and don't deserve money?

I agree it should be repealed, but because it's a stupid law.


Meh. Insult Fail.

You didn't really fail, because now even more people realize I'm a super nerd. And I should just close the browser, but instead I'm going to hit submit.

[ClydeR]

The presense of God on the dollar is insulting to (many) atheists, just as would be blasphemy.

Why would an atheist care?

As an atheist, you are taking an awfully big gamble. Read about Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager) today, before it's too late.

[LMingrone]

Ummm...

If you don't want to recite the Pledge of Allegiance to our great nation, feel free to leave.

I get upset when people talk and/or don't stand during the Star Spangled Banner.

"One nation under God" was what the people who fought and died for to give us the freedoms we have today.

Unbelievable.

~Paul

I hate to argue about religious issues, but that really isn't true. I have had plenty of great-grandfathers/grandfathers that we're non-religious. They didn't fight for "a nation UNDER god". They did it for their family and friends. I might not even be here if it wasn't for them. I respect anyone's beliefs, but it wasn't God that did the work. Maybe I'm just reading too much into what you're saying.

I do agree though of the blatant disrespect of anyone not standing for the Star Spangled Banner, or Pledge.

[Methais]

I do agree though of the blatant disrespect of anyone not standing for the Star Spangled Banner, or Pledge.

Clearly you're un-American for calling that blatant disrespect.

[kookiegod]

Likewise, the people that fought and died to form this nation fought for the right to not have a religious government dictating "the right way" to worship. To have a government that doesn't pick sides in religion and force their ways on everyone else.

Why should a person have to "get out" of the country if they don't believe the US is "one nation under God" as opposed to "one nation under God(s)" or "one secular nation"?

Who are you to decide? The pretense and presumption of that stance are what's unbelievable.

I'm not one to decide. Washington, Jefferson, Adams, were the ones who decided.

Yes, we have freedom of religeon, but they were God fearing men. They didn't specify a God, feel free to believe in whatever higher power, or none at all.

But the history and tradition of our nation shouldn't fall for the sake of people's demonizing of every little thing for psuedo poltitical correctness. I'm tired of all of it. English is the language of our nation, learn it, if you can't fill out a form, get help. We spend bazillions on that. Heck, i stand watching a ballgame on TV when our anthem is played. The liberal BS that spanking your child is bad after 5000 years of it being entirely approrpriate. That changing a slogan on a piece of paper is just a slap against our country's values.

Burning the flag is a freedom of speech? If I ever saw someone do that, i'd execute my right to carry and bear arms.

We are free to do what we want. Most countries do not enjoy what we have, what we can do, but we have some fundemental obligations, that should never be changed.

~Paul

[Sean of the Thread]

I agree with pauly

[Back]

I'm not one to decide. Washington, Jefferson, Adams, were the ones who decided.

Yes, we have freedom of religeon, but they were God fearing men. They didn't specify a God, feel free to believe in whatever higher power, or none at all.

But the history and tradition of our nation shouldn't fall for the sake of people's demonizing of every little thing for psuedo poltitical correctness. I'm tired of all of it. English is the language of our nation, learn it, if you can't fill out a form, get help. We spend bazillions on that. Heck, i stand watching a ballgame on TV when our anthem is played. The liberal BS that spanking your child is bad after 5000 years of it being entirely approrpriate. That changing a slogan on a piece of paper is just a slap against our country's values.

Burning the flag is a freedom of speech? If I ever saw someone do that, i'd execute my right to carry and bear arms.

We are free to do what we want. Most countries do not enjoy what we have, what we can do, but we have some fundemental obligations, that should never be changed.

~Paul

Here we go again. Just like with the OP.

Someone just asks a question. All of a sudden its LIBERALS DESTROYING THE AMERICA!!!ONE!!

And, yes, this country is great because we can say all these things and not get thrown in jail. (or tortured)

[Methais]

Disagreeing with Pauly is typically not a wise move.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/7996475_e33c4e0aa8.jpg

[Tisket]

English is the language of our nation, learn it, if you can't fill out a form, get help.

English is the most broadly used language in the nation and is the common language for government and legislature but there isn't an offical onus to use it nor to learn it. Seriously, where is the official government edict on English as our national language? Your sense of entitlement intrigues me.

Anyway, I just find it funny that English speaking people believe that "those people" need to learn the language because the English speaking person is inconvenienced.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm not religious by any means but don't change it. God, Country, Corps.

[kookiegod]

I'm not religious by any means but don't change it. God, Country, Corps.



Damn straight amigo.

~Paul

[ElvenFury]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned that burning a flag is considered to be the proper way to decommission it.

[Liagala]

English is the most broadly used language in the nation and is the common language for government and legislature but there isn't an offical onus to use it nor to learn it. Seriously, where is the official government edict on English as our national language? Your sense of entitlement intrigues me.

Anyway, I just find it funny that English speaking people believe that "those people" need to learn the language because the English speaking person is inconvenienced.

It's common courtesy. Can I move to France and insist that they start publishing all documents in English so I can read them? How about Russia? Puerto Rico is an American territory, but if I moved there I'd learn Spanish. If I choose to move to their land, I should accept the changes that go with it. I consider those that choose to move, but expect the new land to change for them, to be the ones with an intriguing sense of entitlement.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned that burning a flag is considered to be the proper way to decommission it.


I was in the boyscouts as well.

/shrug

Burning the flag near me = asswhooping and jail for myself.

[Jorddyn]

Burning the flag is a freedom of speech? If I ever saw someone do that, i'd execute my right to carry and bear arms.


Carry and bear away. Just don't threaten or shoot as while their act is protected under the first amendment, yours wouldn't be protected under the second.

I love this country I live in, and I think our most fundamental obligation is to question it. Hell, that's how we came to be a country.


I'm not one to decide. Washington, Jefferson, Adams, were the ones who decided.

Article 6:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States

This says to me that religion has no place in government, nor does government have the right to impress religion upon the people.

Also see the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom) written by Jefferson.

I'm all for love of country. I just don't like it entertwined with love of God. They're two very different concepts that should be ranked very differently, whether one is religious or atheist.

And I still don't care what my money says. Just don't try to say that our founding fathers wanted a religious nation. If they had, they would have put it in the Constitution, in the Bill of Rights, and not specifically allowed for the freedom of and from religion.

[Sean of the Thread]

It's common courtesy. Can I move to France and insist that they start publishing all documents in English so I can read them? How about Russia? Puerto Rico is an American territory, but if I moved there I'd learn Spanish. If I choose to move to their land, I should accept the changes that go with it. I consider those that choose to move, but expect the new land to change for them, to be the ones with an intriguing sense of entitlement.


Well it's not mandatory but if you visit south Florida be prepared to learn spanish if you want to eat.

[kookiegod]

English is the most broadly used language in the nation and is the common language for government and legislature but there isn't an offical onus to use it nor to learn it. Seriously, where is the official government edict on English as our national language? Your sense of entitlement intrigues me.

Anyway, I just find it funny that English speaking people believe that "those people" need to learn the language because the English speaking person is inconvenienced.

Actually I have zero sense of entitlement.

My mother immigrated here in 1968 speaking not a word of English.

She learned it watching soap operas and working with my father in their apartment business.

In a very funny story, one day she had to go to court to do an eviction cause my dad was unavailable (somewhere around 1977), and her German accent was soooo bad (i never heard it , but everyone assures me its true), that Judge Edward Peck thru his hands up and asked for a translator. The funny part is the the guy who came owned a German restaurant in town, The Fort, and their family and mine been friends ever since, and Ruprecht's German at that point was bad as my mom's english, but somehow they got the case done.

And yes, there have been movements to make English the ofificial language of this country.

~Paul

[Jorddyn]

Well it's not mandatory but if you visit south Florida be prepared to learn spanish if you want to eat.

Dos tacos y una cerveza, por favor. What more do you need? :)

[ElvenFury]

It's common courtesy. Can I move to France and insist that they start publishing all documents in English so I can read them? How about Russia? Puerto Rico is an American territory, but if I moved there I'd learn Spanish. If I choose to move to their land, I should accept the changes that go with it. I consider those that choose to move, but expect the new land to change for them, to be the ones with an intriguing sense of entitlement.

So you went out and learned Cherokee, right? Face it, history is written by those who win. The people who out-populate other people tend to win, and they write in their own language. If you're really committed to keeping English as our "official" language, then I hope you're prepared to out-breed all those Mexicans.

[kookiegod]

Carry and bear away. Just don't threaten or shoot as while their act is protected under the first amendment, yours wouldn't be protected under the second.

I love this country I live in, and I think our most fundamental obligation is to question it. Hell, that's how we came to be a country.



Article 6:


This says to me that religion has no place in government, nor does government have the right to impress religion upon the people.

Also see the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Statute_for_Religious_Freedom) written by Jefferson.

I'm all for love of country. I just don't like it entertwined with love of God. They're two very different concepts that should be ranked very differently, whether one is religious or atheist.

And I still don't care what my money says. Just don't try to say that our founding fathers wanted a religious nation. If they had, they would have put it in the Constitution, in the Bill of Rights, and not specifically allowed for the freedom of and from religion.

Very good points Jorddryn, and well written.

I don't think they wanted it either, but I just don't want to see a change to our currency just because its the cause of the day.

Lets remember, the Pilgrims came over here for religeous freedom. Why this great nation got started to begin with. I don't want a state sponsored anything, let alone religeon.

I just don't see the point in changing our history and traditions.

~Paul

[Back]

Dos tacos y una cerveza, por favor. What more do you need? :)

You got it all wrong...

Un torta y dos cervezas, gracias.

[Some Rogue]

Disagreeing with Pauly is typically not a wise move.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/7996475_e33c4e0aa8.jpg


I see your Pauly and raise you this Pauly.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/paulie2.jpg

[Trouble]

Very good points Jorddryn, and well written.

I don't think they wanted it either, but I just don't want to see a change to our currency just because its the cause of the day.

Lets remember, the Pilgrims came over here for religeous freedom. Why this great nation got started to begin with. I don't want a state sponsored anything, let alone religeon.

I just don't see the point in changing our history and traditions.

~Paul

But adding the IGWT to the Pledge was the cause of the day back in 1952, what makes it different than now?

I'd agree on your tradition part if it was in it from the start, but it was just a product of a conservative period in relatively recent US History.

[Liagala]

So you went out and learned Cherokee, right?
I didn't choose to move here. I was born here. Should the original Colonists have learned Cherokee (or whatever)? Hell yes. They were rude bastards who came in here and destroyed whatever they didn't agree with or didn't understand. American history is full of atrocities. When someone invents a time machine so we can go back and change that, let me know. Until then, I was born in an English-speaking nation.


If you're really committed to keeping English as our "official" language, then I hope you're prepared to out-breed all those Mexicans.
Not necessary. Their kids (from what I've seen) almost always learn English as they grow up. I can't tell you how many times the people I work with have called me with a payroll question and put their 7 year old on the phone to translate.

[Methais]

Dos tacos y una cerveza, por favor. What more do you need? :)

Cuervo?

[Jorddyn]

Cuervo?

Luckily, like taco, that self-translates!

[Methais]

I see your Pauly and raise you this Pauly.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/paulie2.jpg

I see that Pauly and raise you this Pauly:
http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsY/18864-16186.gif

RULE: Posting Pauly Shore is an automatic lose. I KNOW THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE GOING 4 NEXT!!!!1

[ElvenFury]

Not necessary. Their kids (from what I've seen) almost always learn English as they grow up. I can't tell you how many times the people I work with have called me with a payroll question and put their 7 year old on the phone to translate.

They speak English to YOU, but do they do it with their bilingual 7 yr old friends? Eventually if the minority becomes the majority, they stop giving a shit about dealing with the new minority, and the cycle starts all over again. Their kids will be born into a society as English as yours is Cherokee.

[Warriorbird]

I'm not one to decide. Washington, Jefferson, Adams, were the ones who decided.

Yes, we have freedom of religeon, but they were God fearing men. They didn't specify a God, feel free to believe in whatever higher power, or none at all.

But the history and tradition of our nation shouldn't fall for the sake of people's demonizing of every little thing for psuedo poltitical correctness. I'm tired of all of it. English is the language of our nation, learn it, if you can't fill out a form, get help. We spend bazillions on that. Heck, i stand watching a ballgame on TV when our anthem is played. The liberal BS that spanking your child is bad after 5000 years of it being entirely approrpriate. That changing a slogan on a piece of paper is just a slap against our country's values.

Burning the flag is a freedom of speech? If I ever saw someone do that, i'd execute my right to carry and bear arms.

We are free to do what we want. Most countries do not enjoy what we have, what we can do, but we have some fundemental obligations, that should never be changed.

~Paul

You're a smart guy, Paul. That argument works for the oaths. It doesn't really work at all for the Pledge or the currency.

[Liagala]

They speak English to YOU, but do they do it with their bilingual 7 yr old friends? Eventually if the minority becomes the majority, they stop giving a shit about dealing with the new minority, and the cycle starts all over again. Their kids will be born into a society as English as yours is Cherokee.

Publishing documents in Spanish is supposed to help prevent this? I'm really missing something in that logic.

[Some Rogue]

I see that Pauly and raise you this Pauly:
http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsY/18864-16186.gif

RULE: Posting Pauly Shore is an automatic lose. I KNOW THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE GOING 4 NEXT!!!!1

Pauli (girl)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/st_paulie_girl_katerina_van_derham.jpg

[Danical]

This, being completely tangential, has nothing to do with "liberalism." It's called psychiatry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatry) . . .

This isn't entirely accurate - formally, it's behaviorism, a branch of psychology.

And Paul, the problem isn't with punishment (in this case you're talking about positive punishment - introducing a negative stimulus) alone but rather when you try to remove a behavior (via punishment) you should always reinforce an alternative behavior (via positive reinforcement - introducing a positive stimulus or negative reinforcement - removing a negative stimulus) which parents almost never do. Basically, only beating your kid just teaches him to not get caught next time.

There's a whole host of variables with punishment but I'll just leave it at that.

Also, I mother fucking love this country but as a devout agnostic, I don't like seeing religion shoehorned into any governmental ideology or documentation.

[kookiegod]

You're a smart guy, Paul. That argument works for the oaths. It doesn't really work at all for the Pledge or the currency.

Yep, but I wasn't argueing the Pledge...

Would I be opposed to changing it? I dunno, i'd have to ponder it some more.

Things do change, I understand it...even being a conservative republican, I am and always be for civil rights, women's right, diversity, gay marriage (i don't care what two or more people want to do in their bedroom), transgender rights (a recent case made the murder of a kid a hate crime, and the bastard will spend the rest of his life in jail)...so yah, I am socially liberal.

Heh, its just my opinions and my beliefs as a former United States Army soldier, and what I believe to be in the best interests of my country.

The best part is I'm willing to take some heat for those beliefs. If more people do that, either side of the fence, we'd be better off for it. :)

~Paul

[kookiegod]

This isn't entirely accurate - formally, it's behaviorism, a branch of psychology.

And Paul, the problem isn't with punishment (in this case you're talking about positive punishment - introducing a negative stimulus) alone but rather when you try to remove a behavior (via punishment) you should always reinforce an alternative behavior (via positive reinforcement - introducing a positive stimulus or negative reinforcement - removing a negative stimulus) which parents almost never do. Basically, only beating your kid just teaches him to not get caught next time.

There's a whole host of variables with punishment but I'll just leave it at that.

Also, I mother fucking love this country but as a devout agnostic, I don't like seeing religion shoehorned into any governmental ideology or documentation.

Yah, i'm not going to get into the whole spanking argument, heh, I'll lose this one.

Suffice to say, I got the belt when I was a kid and nothing bad happened to me because of it, and thus how I was brought up and believe in. I don't think parents should be arrested for doing the same just because some people believe its the worst thing ever, given 1000s of years of history prove otherwise.

/flees this argument.


~Paul

[Warriorbird]

I'm certainly not knocking any of that, Paul. I think Eisenhower was actually a pretty damn good President... but given the sheer degree of stupid religion that was tossed at me while I was growing up (being raised near Lynchburg, VA will alter you) I'm just not thrilled by changes made in the late 1950's being alluded to as 'made by the Founders.'

[ElvenFury]

Publishing documents in Spanish is supposed to help prevent this? I'm really missing something in that logic.

All I'm saying is that it's inevitable, Spanish docs or no, and that whether or not it's rude will matter little when they're running the joint and we're all living on reservations in fucking SD. :-P

[kookiegod]

I'm certainly not knocking any of that, Paul. I think Eisenhower was actually a pretty damn good President... but given the sheer degree of stupid religion that was tossed at me while I was growing up (being raised near Lynchburg, VA will alter you) I'm just not thrilled by changes made in the late 1950's being alluded to as 'made by the Founders.'

Yep, Ike did good. :)

I wasn't brought up with religion at all. In fact, I never cracked a Bible till a few months ago when I was looking for some answers, and been wandering into various churches, temples, and even a hall in my area seeing if i could find them.

So I'm not wedded to the concept, and I can deal with change, its just opinion.

`Paul

[LMingrone]

Damn, this thread is going in a ton of directions.

One big piece of advice, when you have to say "god" in anything...it's your own god. It can be "one nation under baked stuffed lobster". God is a generalized term.

I consider myself Agnostic, I don't know all the answers. But you better believe that at a funeral, baseball game, first communion, bah mitzfah (sp?), I'm going to respect my own and other's heritage and culture.

[Jorddyn]

One big piece of advice, when you have to say "god" in anything...it's your own god. It can be "one nation under baked stuffed lobster".

Now there's something I can get behind.

[Mabus]

Lets remember, the Pilgrims came over here for religeous freedom.
I am all for religious freedom; Freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.

23 of the 74 men coming over on the Mayflower had nothing to do with the Puritan religious movement, but were farmers, laborers and indentured servants.

The purpose of the journey was monetary. It was funded by merchants seeking profit, and began when it did because a wanted man was hiding aboard the ship.

Just thought I would throw that out there.

:medieval:

[Mabus]

One big piece of advice, when you have to say "god" in anything...it's your own god. It can be "one nation under baked stuffed lobster". God is a generalized term.
I always thought the "In God We Trust" on money meant "In Mammon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon) We Trust".

Seems an appropriate deity for currency.

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can not serve both God and Mammon." -Matthew 6:24

[kookiegod]

Damn, this thread is going in a ton of directions.

One big piece of advice, when you have to say "god" in anything...it's your own god. It can be "one nation under baked stuffed lobster". God is a generalized term.

I consider myself Agnostic, I don't know all the answers. But you better believe that at a funeral, baseball game, first communion, bah mitzfah (sp?), I'm going to respect my own and other's heritage and culture.

Very true.

If I was in Canada, and the Canadian National Anthem played at a baseball game, i'd still stand.


Good point.

~Paul

[Warriorbird]

I stand. I recite the Pledge. I just skip the inserted God bit. Nobody usually notices.

[Liagala]

All I'm saying is that it's inevitable, Spanish docs or no, and that whether or not it's rude will matter little when they're running the joint and we're all living on reservations in fucking SD. :-P

I call dibs on the casino!

[Sean of the Thread]

I like to call it <insert diety>

[Tisket]

It's common courtesy. Can I move to France and insist that they start publishing all documents in English so I can read them? How about Russia? Puerto Rico is an American territory, but if I moved there I'd learn Spanish. If I choose to move to their land, I should accept the changes that go with it. I consider those that choose to move, but expect the new land to change for them, to be the ones with an intriguing sense of entitlement.

Courtesy has nothing to do with it. Zero.

If I move to Mauritania, my options are to either learn the language of Mauritania or else to live a very quiet existence of pictograph signs and miming. That's not the case for most immigrants coming to America. You can speak Spanish, Polish, Punjabi, Serbian, Vietnamese, Russian, Mandarin, whatever and find a city with a sufficient population of your countrymen to get by. If I moved to Mauritania and found a city where 30% of them spoke English and I could get by then, hell, I wouldn't feel obligated to learn Mauritanian either. I've never heard a word of Mauritanian in my life but I bet it's a real bitch to get down.

And, although I'd like to say I'd attempt to learn Mauritanian, the pressure and haste I'd feel to do so would depend on what's around me. Learning a new language isn't easy and it might take a back seat to finding work, lodging, friends, etc. if I can get by without it. There's a big difference between a scenario where I'm airdropped into some remote Mauritanian village and one where I move into the British district of Hong Kong.

Now if your issue is with going to a business and encountering people who, in your mind, should be able to speak in English well enough to service you, that's purely an economic practice and a hiring issue. If it bothers you that much, find another place to shop. Vote with your economic dollars. If the company has a large enough market in Spanish (or whatever language it is that you take issue with) speaking people to get by without you, they will. If not, then they'll change their hiring practices.

[Tisket]

I didn't choose to move here. I was born here. Should the original Colonists have learned Cherokee (or whatever)? Hell yes. They were rude bastards who came in here and destroyed whatever they didn't agree with or didn't understand. American history is full of atrocities. When someone invents a time machine so we can go back and change that, let me know. Until then, I was born in an English-speaking nation.

What kind of atrocities have the current immigrants wreaked on us exactly? You do realize that there are people that have lived in the U.S. for years and still don't know a single word of english. How exactly has this affected your way of life?

Oh I get it, you think allowing spanish on our sacred ATM machines and forcing us to press an extra button is threatening the very fiber of America, right?

I think you are just afraid. Afraid that these people aren't just shedding their culture on crossing the border and are actually here in sufficient numbers to influence American culture instead of just being politely absorbed into it.

Welcome to evolution, sissy.

[Tisket]

...and on topic...I think the pledge should remain untouched as should currency.

[ClydeR]

What kind of atrocities have the current immigrants wreaked on us exactly? You do realize that there are people that have lived in the U.S. for years and still don't know a single word of english. How exactly has this affected your way of life?

Oh I get it, you think allowing spanish on our sacred ATM machines and forcing us to press an extra button is threatening the very fiber of America, right?

I think you are just afraid. Afraid that these people aren't just shedding their culture on crossing the border and are actually here in sufficient numbers to influence American culture instead of just being politely absorbed into it.

Welcome to evolution, sissy.

I'll answer. People who live in the United Sates but can't speak our language are going to be poor. Poor people put a financial strain on the rest of us because they go to emergency rooms, can't support themselves in retirement, have a lot of kids, and expect us to teach their kids in our schools.


Suffice to say, I got the belt when I was a kid and nothing bad happened to me because of it....

Me too.

[radamanthys]

The english debate doesn't bother me. I'm reasonable (out of practice) in Spanish (Latin American, not Carribean or Castilian). I'm learning Mandarin. *shrug*

God doesn't belong there. It doesn't belong anywhere within the confines of any governmental institution. I'd say the same thing if "In Allah we trust" was added... hell, I'd even be just as irritated about, "there is no god". The government is just not allowed to make that choice for us.

And paul... I hate to say it, but I think you're a libertarian. We meet every thursday. Bring a dollar for the coffee fund.

[Mabus]

And paul... I hate to say it, but I think you're a libertarian. We meet every thursday. Bring a dollar for the coffee fund.
I was thinking the same thing.

[ElvenFury]

If I move to Mauritania, my options are to either learn the language of Mauritania or else to live a very quiet existence of pictograph signs and miming.

Holy shit. When the fuck did Maury Povich start his own country?!

http://www.vladville.com/media/Ridethewaveordrownfightingit_13E9/maury_povich_1995.jpg
"YOU WILL LEARN MAURITANIAN, BITCHES!!"

[Deathravin]

Ummm...

If you don't want to recite the Pledge of Allegiance to our great nation, feel free to leave.

I recite the Pledge, the same way I did after the age of 10 and I actually realized what I was saying:


I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

I took a Statistics class in high school and we had to do these little presentations. One of them in the class was the % of Americans who knew the pledge of allegiance. The presenter chose me and somebody else I didn't really know to stand and recite it together. We both did and we both left out 'under god'. Still friends with her today.

I'd be more interested to know the % of people that leave out 'under god'.

[droit]

Originally Posted by kookiegod View Post
Suffice to say, I got the belt when I was a kid and nothing bad happened to me because of it....



Me too.

:rofl:

[Tisket]

Holy shit. When the fuck did Maury Povich start his own country?!

http://www.vladville.com/media/Ridethewaveordrownfightingit_13E9/maury_povich_1995.jpg
"YOU WILL LEARN MAURITANIAN, BITCHES!!"

I was trying to think of an obscure country to make my point!!

Tramp.

[Latrinsorm]

It's just a little reminder that you, as an agnostic/atheist/believer in any non-Judeo-Christian faith, are out of place.As a member of several minorities - we are out of place, that's what being a minority means. Quibbling over what some of the Framers wanted the First Amendment to mean is meaningless: what the Framers certainly intended was for America to be a democratic republic. If majority rule is good enough for the legislature, why not for slogans on our money?
The founders of this nation decided--rightly--that in order for a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural and multi-religion populace to best get along with each other, the civil government should be impartial and secular.Would these be the same founders who decided that women and blacks shouldn't have any say in the government?
"One nation under God" was what the people who fought and died for to give us the freedoms we have today.Most of the soldiers I've talked to (who, admittedly, were the ones who fought and lived) weren't terribly interested in fighting for any portion of the pledge. They more often spoke of camaraderie, defending our rights, a sense of honor, things like that. As a matter of fact, I can't remember a single one who mentioned (theistic) religion at all. Maybe all the people I met were from the Secretly Pinko and America-Hating Brigade?
Lets remember, the Pilgrims came over here for religeous freedom.The Pilgrims were so repressive that they inspired a guy to make a whole new colony specifically to avoid them. Put another way, the Pilgrims came over here to be in charge of imposing religion if anything, not to abolish the act.
Puerto Rico is an American territory, but if I moved there I'd learn Spanish.I think you mean Taíno. Spanish is the language of Spain, which is actually in Europe.

.

The only person that's ever really trusted God was Jesus, and look how that turned out for him. There are so many better choices for words to put on our money... wouldn't it be so much better to have "Hope" or "Peace" next to "Liberty" and "E Pluribus Unum"? America's tradition is telling tradition to piss up a rope, why are we sacralizing this of all things?

[Legacyofpain]

that i'm an an atheist and a liberal and i really don't give a fuck about in god we trust being in the pledge? Not that you care

[Stanley Burrell]

The liberal BS that spanking your child is bad after 5000 years of it being entirely approrpriate. That changing a slogan on a piece of paper is just a slap against our country's values.

One day, women decided to start working. And child therapy was invented. Never compare the past to the present though, no offense.

However, I don't agree with this Paulie:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/binary/8873/Rupaul.jpg

Again, "God" isn't even a word to me on our currency. It's an emblem like the Mason's eye or any other fancy shit that makes up our dollar dollar bills, y'all.

[Apotheosis]

One day, women decided to start working. And child therapy was invented. Never compare the past to the present though, no offense.

Again, "God" isn't even a word to me on our currency. It's an emblem like the Mason's eye or any other fancy shit that makes up our dollar dollar bills, y'all.

There is no illuminati.. or mason's eye.. it's all an urban legend..

[Stanley Burrell]

There is no illuminati.. or mason's eye.. it's all an urban legend..

Or God.

[Warriorbird]

There is no illuminati.. or mason's eye.. it's all an urban legend..

The Illuminati ended in the 1700's... but there was certainly Masonic influence on the founding of our country and our currency.

[Gan]

The Illuminati ended in the 1700's... but there was certainly Masonic influence on the founding of our country and our currency.

As any travelling man would agree. ;)

[kookiegod]

Libertarian?

Heh, mebbe, I can cover the buck.

A friend of mine would be happy. John Babiarz. He worked for me for a decade. He also ran for Gov of NH a few years ago and got 10 percent of the vote. Not bad really for a 3rd party. He's a bit eccentric, but lets face it, who of us here isn't.

<laugh>

Been a very interesting discussion nonetheless.

~Paul

[radamanthys]

Libertarian?

Heh, mebbe, I can cover the buck.

A friend of mine would be happy. John Babiarz. He worked for me for a decade. He also ran for Gov of NH a few years ago and got 10 percent of the vote. Not bad really for a 3rd party. He's a bit eccentric, but lets face it, who of us here isn't.

<laugh>

Been a very interesting discussion nonetheless.

~Paul


Never lets me down!

Typically, a libertarian is anyone who is (traditionally) conservative, but socially liberal. I posit that most independents are moderate libertarians.

NH has the best state motto evar. Live free or die. Of course, that sentiment has conservatives on a watch list today :-(.

[Back]

Live free or die. Of course, that sentiment has conservatives on a watch list today :-(.

Please. We’ve all been under a watch list since 2001.

You’re only just now complaining.

[Warriorbird]

As any travelling man would agree. ;)

Some folks haven't traveled long or far. Colors the worldview.

[radamanthys]

Please. We’ve all been under a watch list since 2001.

You’re only just now complaining.

I'm sure we've all probably been on a watch list since Eisenhower.

But now they're issuing edicts. Edicts, man!

That said... they're probably right.:medieval:

(To the CIA guy assigned to watch out for uppity geeks on the PCs: Hi! Just kidding!)

[Methais]

Please. We’ve all been under a watch list since 2001.

You’re only just now complaining.

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/tin_foil.jpg

[Warriorbird]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/a/a2/Mexican_tinfoil.jpg/650px-Mexican_tinfoil.jpg

[Methais]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/a/a2/Mexican_tinfoil.jpg/650px-Mexican_tinfoil.jpg

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .____,,,---~`\,, . . . . . . .. _________
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[radamanthys]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YVWVYTEYL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

http://bearmythology.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/burt-reynolds-directtv-1.jpg

[Liagala]

What kind of atrocities have the current immigrants wreaked on us exactly? You do realize that there are people that have lived in the U.S. for years and still don't know a single word of english. How exactly has this affected your way of life?

Oh I get it, you think allowing spanish on our sacred ATM machines and forcing us to press an extra button is threatening the very fiber of America, right?

I think you are just afraid. Afraid that these people aren't just shedding their culture on crossing the border and are actually here in sufficient numbers to influence American culture instead of just being politely absorbed into it.

Welcome to evolution, sissy.
No, the atrocities I meant are those commited by Americans. The complete destruction of Native American life, slavery, etc. We're the assholes. I was saying that the original British colonists should have learned Cherokee (or whatever language applied) instead of forcing their own way on those who already lived here.

I'm not afraid of pressing an extra button on an ATM. I think someone moving here and telling me that I'm threatening their culture by not adding that button to my ATM is rude. That's all I'm saying. I'd be an asshole if I moved to Mauritania and started protesting outside their capital, telling them they needed to add English to their ATMs. If I chose to live a life of pictograph signs and miming that's fine... but it would be complete arrogance for me to require the Mauritanian people to begin publishing everything in English just because I choose not to learn their language. If I make the choice not to learn the language, then I need to deal with the consequences of that choice - in this case, the fact that I am not going to understand most of what goes on, and that I will miss out on a lot because of it.

I'm not trying to take away anyone's culture, and I'm not trying to force them to do anything they don't want. All I'm saying is that they should learn the language of the area they live in, so that they can take care of things that require it. The rest of the time, they can do whatever makes them happy in whatever language makes them happy.

[ElvenFury]

I was saying that the original British colonists should have learned Cherokee (or whatever language applied) instead of forcing their own way on those who already lived here.

Wampanoag. I picked Cherokee because unless you're from Cape Cod you've probably never heard of the Wampanoags. However, they're the ones that had first Thanksgiving and all that jazz. Now they mostly live in the trailer park in Mashpee, and 90% of them look at least 90% black.

[Sean of the Thread]

I don't know about the rest of the country but the Seminoles are doing rather well here in Florida.

[Warriorbird]

Indian prosperity is a relatively recent thing that does exist in some places. Now...there are places like Four Corners that are still horrible however.

[Tisket]

No, the atrocities I meant are those commited by Americans. The complete destruction of Native American life, slavery, etc. We're the assholes. I was saying that the original British colonists should have learned Cherokee (or whatever language applied) instead of forcing their own way on those who already lived here.

I'm not afraid of pressing an extra button on an ATM. I think someone moving here and telling me that I'm threatening their culture by not adding that button to my ATM is rude. That's all I'm saying. I'd be an asshole if I moved to Mauritania and started protesting outside their capital, telling them they needed to add English to their ATMs. If I chose to live a life of pictograph signs and miming that's fine... but it would be complete arrogance for me to require the Mauritanian people to begin publishing everything in English just because I choose not to learn their language. If I make the choice not to learn the language, then I need to deal with the consequences of that choice - in this case, the fact that I am not going to understand most of what goes on, and that I will miss out on a lot because of it.

I'm not trying to take away anyone's culture, and I'm not trying to force them to do anything they don't want. All I'm saying is that they should learn the language of the area they live in, so that they can take care of things that require it. The rest of the time, they can do whatever makes them happy in whatever language makes them happy.

You haven't said why you believe they should learn the language of the area they live in. If you moved to Hong Kong, you really expect us to believe you would learn Catonese, knowing you could get by perfectly well speaking only English? I don't believe that for a moment.

I mean, seriously, you seem smart and I don't mean this to come off as an attack on yourself but more a general rant but Jesus, I mean, I don't really want to believe that you are really so pathetic that you need to be able to feel better about people because you SPEAK ENGLISH?

I mean, honestly. You want to feel better than people because you were born speaking a certain language. Just say it, no one cares. It's no big deal. Insecure people in general are always looking for reasons to feel better than someone. Skin color, sexual orientation, nationality, language, religion, whatever. I can't think of any other reasonable excuse for making life harder for those who don't speak English.

All it would do is make it much harder for them do anything. But don't delude yourself. It wouldn't alleviate anything, particularly for them. What it would do is make people who wouldn't be impacted by it at all feel better about themselves because things were made more difficult for other people for absolutely no reason.

If you want to be all xenophobic and insular, knock yourself out but let's call a spade a spade.

[Stanley Burrell]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YVWVYTEYL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

http://bearmythology.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/burt-reynolds-directtv-1.jpg

I KNEW IT.

[TheRunt]

Not exactly on topic but...
A good vid IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbIls0iOnI