Prisoners, a burden no more?

[Gan]

Saw a story on CNN-HN this AM about states considering to charge $1 a day for every day behind bars.

This is not the first time we have seen local or state governments charge inmates for food, healthcare, or other services.

So my point of discussion is: should incarcerated felons be made to reimburse the state (city and or county) for their time behind bars?

My opinion will follow when I make it to a regular keyboard instead of my blackberry...

Poll to follow.

[Fallen]

How the hell are they expected to pay that money back? I'm all for prison labor, but saying you owe 5k after getting out of prison is just going to make it harder for them to get started on building a non-criminal life.

[Kuyuk]

Yeah, no shit.

Talk about stupid logic.

They probably spent any and all money they had to get a lawyer, they failed at that so are probably pretty broke, stuck in prison for 5-10, and then get out with 2-6k in debt?

Doesnt sound like a well thought out plan to me.

What about lifers?

K.

[kookiegod]

Original sin.

Make their next-of-kin / family as responsible for the debt.

Honestly, it won't work.

I'd rather them bring back hard labor, 12 hour days doing road cleaning, cleaning graffiti, prison farms to feed themselves (don't work, don't eat).

~Paul

[Kuyuk]

Not really fair for their families to pay for them.

I'm all for hard labor as well. There's plenty of shit that can be done.


K.

[Mtenda]

Yeah I'm thinking this will just further discourage many criminals from leaving the life of crime.

[Clove]

While I understand the concern, it is possible to receive a fine and incarceration for certain convictions. I don't see how this is any worse. A dollar a day is $3,650 for a 10 year sentence, which they can work off while in prison in that amount of time.

[Kuyuk]

And how much do they get paid while working in prison?

[Tisket]

I'd rather them bring back hard labor, 12 hour days doing road cleaning, cleaning graffiti, prison farms to feed themselves (don't work, don't eat).


Well why stop there? I think we should have televised thunderdome-style matches between all prisoners. Win ten matches you go free with a million bucks. No?

I know! Maybe if we give them cake and blowjobs every day, they'll never want to leave and they'll be off the streets forever. Let's give that a shot too.

Listen, being tougher on prisoners has been tried before. It doesn't work. If you 'reformed' prisons in the way you've suggested, you'd have riots and dead prison guards and nothing else much would change.

[Proxy]

Personally i say bill them and charge interest. Why are you people empathizing with some grouping of defective cheese monkeys that deserve so much worse then free room and board + medical & education for knocking over a liquor store, or stabbing some ones grandma and stealing her purse, etc... More so when rapists, murderers, economic terrorists(embezzlers/confidence scam artists/inside traders/etc) are included in that lot.

[ClydeR]

The parents of prisoners should have to pay for it because if they had raised their kids right, then they wouldn't be in jail anyway. If the parents can't afford to pay for it and are too old to work for the government cleaning roads and parks and such, then the prisoner's children should have to pay for it because children are temporally responsible for the sins of their parents.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." -Prov. 22:6

"The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." -Num. 14:18

[Proxy]

china has an interesting policy twards capital punishment that bills the family of the deceased convict for the bullet used to execute them. Just saying, good idea, in that regard.

But given that criminal disposition or at the least the in ability to reason correctly that allows for someone to pursue criminal activity is not necessarily a product of ones up bringing. I do not personally think billing the family for the time they are incarcerated is a good idea.

Though I'm not apposed to the idea of posting their names on local news channels/bill boards and making sure that everyone knows what family soanso mass murderer was spawned from.

Edit: However, if it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the up bringing of said convict was responsible for there activities then by all mean throw ever breathing meat bag in relation behind jail for an equal sentence. And bill them to. Then piss on the graves of the none breathing ones.

[Sean of the Thread]

If they're allowed to pay it off with work during time served then okay. Otherwise fuck no.

They were already penalized with fines and costs etc. and hitting the streets with a tab is going to further complicate and ruin their lives to the point they may not be able to get back up thus creating a circle of shit.

Our legal system is fucked anyways.


*there wasn't an option for paying it off with labor during time served so I abstain.

[Mtenda]

Well why stop there? I think we should have televised thunderdome-style matches between all prisoners. Win ten matches you go free with a million bucks. No?

I know! Maybe if we give them cake and blowjobs every day, they'll never want to leave and they'll be off the streets forever. Let's give that a shot too.

Listen, being tougher on prisoners has been tried before. It doesn't work. If you 'reformed' prisons in the way you've suggested, you'd have riots and dead prison guards and nothing else much would change.

:rofl:

http://www.traileraddict.com/content/tristar-pictures/runningman.jpg

ftw

[Tisket]

Exactly, think about the ad revenue generated by televising matches.

[Proxy]

Wow, I agree with you tisket. We Do need to be harsher on criminals.

Death race/thunder dome/running man/"Battle Royale" esc programs have potential for massive win. Both as deterrents & as money makers.

[Tisket]

Man, I REALLY need to work on my italics useage...

[Fallen]

That poster is fucking badass. Sadly, the movie was not.

[Gan]

How the hell are they expected to pay that money back? I'm all for prison labor, but saying you owe 5k after getting out of prison is just going to make it harder for them to get started on building a non-criminal life.

I guess the concept of criminals hiding money/funds/assets in order to avoid being targeted as a part of restitution or confiscated as ill-gotten gains is not something you've ever considered.


Talk about stupid logic.

They probably spent any and all money they had to get a lawyer, they failed at that so are probably pretty broke, stuck in prison for 5-10, and then get out with 2-6k in debt?

Doesnt sound like a well thought out plan to me.

What about lifers?

K.
So is your response hollywood logic as to the criminal experience from arrest through conviction and serving out a sentence?



Make their next-of-kin / family as responsible for the debt.

Honestly, it won't work.

I'd rather them bring back hard labor, 12 hour days doing road cleaning, cleaning graffiti, prison farms to feed themselves (don't work, don't eat).

~Paul
I think their personal resources should be made available. Outside of that, its not fair since the other family members likely did not have any direct impact on the choice to do the crime. And I agree with the hard labor practice. As far as prison farms... thats how Texas rolls, they raise almost all their own veggies and a good portion of their beef/pork/chicken product. We have field units where prisoners work on the crops that their prison location has been assigned to grow. Prison transportation division is responsible for shipping/relocating the food resources to the other prisons. Prison industry is also pretty involved, including several units having stainless steel (and plain steel) plants where the steel is fabricated into prison items such as kitchen hardware, dining area metalware, dayroom tables, benches, commode/sink units for individual cells, etc.


Yeah I'm thinking this will just further discourage many criminals from leaving the life of crime.
It depends on the goal/cause of the crime. From a poverty standpoint and the crime being one of money, then I would tend to agree from an indigent slant (nothing to gain/nothing to lose). But not all crime is based on money, so the real question will be is this simply a focus on deterrence or is the focus one of both deterrence and recouperation of society's loss?


While I understand the concern, it is possible to receive a fine and incarceration for certain convictions. I don't see how this is any worse. A dollar a day is $3,650 for a 10 year sentence, which they can work off while in prison in that amount of time.
There's the thought for indigent prisoners. Cant afford to pay your stay? Then you can work off the debt. The only problem that creates is a class based prison environment where the wealthy can avoid hard labor and the poor cannot. So yes, this approach deserves greater study and attention to say the least.


And how much do they get paid while working in prison?
Why would someone deserve to get paid while being in prison? Seriously?


Listen, being tougher on prisoners has been tried before. It doesn't work. If you 'reformed' prisons in the way you've suggested, you'd have riots and dead prison guards and nothing else much would change.
Can you source any valid studies that shows that hard labor prison environments result in too many riots and dead prison guards and have a negative effect on deterrence? I'm of the opinion that hard labor creates an environment that definately discourages recivitism in non-sociopathic and non-passion based crimes (ie. greed/money based crimes). Think about it... How likely would money driven criminals do what they do if they knew that not only would they face hard labor but also face the repossession of their assets as a form of restitution and debt relief for their incarceration?


Personally i say bill them and charge interest. Why are you people empathizing with some grouping of defective cheese monkeys that deserve so much worse then free room and board + medical & education for knocking over a liquor store, or stabbing some ones grandma and stealing her purse, etc... More so when rapists, murderers, economic terrorists(embezzlers/confidence scam artists/inside traders/etc) are included in that lot.
:)


The parents of prisoners should have to pay for it because if they had raised their kids right, then they wouldn't be in jail anyway. If the parents can't afford to pay for it and are too old to work for the government cleaning roads and parks and such, then the prisoner's children should have to pay for it because children are temporally responsible for the sins of their parents.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." -Prov. 22:6

"The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." -Num. 14:18
LOL - ClydeR, you deliver!


If they're allowed to pay it off with work during time served then okay. Otherwise fuck no.

They were already penalized with fines and costs etc. and hitting the streets with a tab is going to further complicate and ruin their lives to the point they may not be able to get back up thus creating a circle of shit.

Our legal system is fucked anyways.


*there wasn't an option for paying it off with labor during time served so I abstain.

My thoughts are that its not society's fault that the criminal perpetrated the crime to begin with, and yet society must pay the tab for the criminal's forced removal from society. So in essence, society pays for the crime twice (sometimes three times over). Society pays in the loss that the crime creates (loss of life, rights, property, etc.). Society pays for the institutionalization (and healthcare, and sometimes education) of said criminals during their punishment (prison). And sometimes society even pays for the criminal's defense in court.

Why not prevent greater loss to society and force criminals to be responsible for the costs of institutionalization as well as healthcare since its the responsibility of the criminal that he has forced society to remove him due to his own actions?

If the criminal is indigent, then liens are placed of record preventing said criminal from the collection of resources without first repaying his debt to society.

Think of it in the same terms as child support. You have a kid, you bear the burden (cost) of raising said kid. You do the crime, you bear the burden of repaying all the losses associated with said crime, up to and including incarceration costs.

[TheRunt]

Original sin.

Make their next-of-kin / family as responsible for the debt.

Honestly, it won't work.

I'd rather them bring back hard labor, 12 hour days doing road cleaning, cleaning graffiti, prison farms to feed themselves (don't work, don't eat).

~Paul

+1

[holocene]

Consider this: Keeping a prison in a state-run jail costs over $20k per year per prison. Private-sector jails charge the states even more (but remove some of bureaucratic headache or something?). I see some studies that say they cost $70k a year, but I think that that might just be super-max...

I'm not sure what that $1 gets you, except an indebted and desperate prisoner when he is released.

[kookiegod]

Nice Gan, didn't know that about Texas...

And the Sherriff over in AZ Joe Arpaio, born in my hometown, still uses chain gangs for roadwork and other tasks.

In 1995, Arpaio reinstituted chain gangs. In 1996, Arpaio expanded the chain gang concept by instituting female volunteer chain gangs.[25] Female inmates work seven hours a day (7 am to 2 pm), six days a week. He has also instituted the world's first all-juvenile volunteer chain gang; volunteers earn high school credit toward a diploma

Further...

With all his tough on crime and prisoners, pink underwear, and tent city conditions...

In her book on prison policy The Use of Force by Detention Officers, Arizona State University criminal justice professor Marie L. Griffin reported on a 1998 study commissioned by Arpaio to examine recidivism rates based on conditions of confinement. Comparing recidivism rates under Arpaio to those under his predecessor, the study found "there was no significant difference in recidivism observed between those offenders released in 1989-1990 and those released in 1994-1995

So yes Tisket, hard labor doesn't do anything but make prison hell, but they also offer educational offerings, and the like as well, but it shouldn't be fun to be there, shouldn't be 24x7 of a good time.

You shouldn't want to ever go back.

~Paul

[Ignot]

I know! Maybe if we give them cake and blowjobs every day, they'll never want to leave and they'll be off the streets forever. Let's give that a shot too.



I think we should get cake and blowjobs for not being in prison.


Sadly, the movie was not.

Whoa whoa whoa. RLY?

[Tisket]

Nice Gan, didn't know that about Texas...

And the Sherriff over in AZ Joe Arpaio, born in my hometown, still uses chain gangs for roadwork and other tasks.

In 1995, Arpaio reinstituted chain gangs. In 1996, Arpaio expanded the chain gang concept by instituting female volunteer chain gangs.[25] Female inmates work seven hours a day (7 am to 2 pm), six days a week. He has also instituted the world's first all-juvenile volunteer chain gang; volunteers earn high school credit toward a diploma

Further...

With all his tough on crime and prisoners, pink underwear, and tent city conditions...

In her book on prison policy The Use of Force by Detention Officers, Arizona State University criminal justice professor Marie L. Griffin reported on a 1998 study commissioned by Arpaio to examine recidivism rates based on conditions of confinement. Comparing recidivism rates under Arpaio to those under his predecessor, the study found "there was no significant difference in recidivism observed between those offenders released in 1989-1990 and those released in 1994-1995

So yes Tisket, hard labor doesn't do anything but make prison hell, but they also offer educational offerings, and the like as well, but it shouldn't be fun to be there, shouldn't be 24x7 of a good time.

You shouldn't want to ever go back.

Let's call a spade a spade here. All these things do is satisfy the public's desire for retaliation. Why do you think most of them occur outside prison walls? Simple incarceration of offenders doesn't feed our need for vengeance. While fun and satisfying to watch they in no way will reduce a criminals future chances of committing further crimes.

[Gan]

In 1995, Arpaio reinstituted chain gangs.

...the study found "there was no significant difference in recidivism observed between those offenders released in 1989-1990 and those released in 1994-1995.

You shouldn't want to ever go back.

~Paul

Too bad the professor did not followup with another study after the chain gang program had a chance to run long enough to produce an effect on the local criminal population.

I bolded the part that deserves real emphasis.

:)

[Gan]

Let's call a spade a spade here. All these things do is satisfy the public's desire for retaliation. Why do you think most of them occur outside prison walls? Simple incarceration of offenders doesn't feed our need for vengeance. While fun and satisfying to watch they in no way will reduce a criminals future chances of committing further crimes.

You're forgetting the economic aspect of repaying society for the costs of the crime.

Open the focus of the discussion from simply recivitism/deterrence to add the economic value.

Crime isnt all about the criminal. There's also the victim and society to account for. ;)

[kookiegod]

Yep, agreed Gan, its the punishment fitting the crime.

You spank a child for putting themselves into danger. (and no, lets not open that can of worms, I got the belt when I was a kid, I think its fine, and if more....nah, not going there in this debate)

You put a person who hurt others into prison to prevent them from hurting even more others, and yes, they are there to be punished. Not spend their days having a good time. It should be work, rehab, restitution to the victims, and yes, punishment. You took their freedom, yes, but its not about retribution, its making them hopefully understand that what got them there, is not acceptable.

And just like that kid sitting with a smacked bottom, you'd hope they never want to go back to it because it hurts.

I am all for rehab efforts. I support mandatory antidrug classes, anger management courses, vocational skills (see Gan's steel plants in Texas), educational offerings, counselling for whatever is ailing them. Nothing wrong with that. Look at Sherriff Joe's volenteer juvi chain gang, they get credit towards a diploma. Its an incentive.

~Paul

[Tisket]

You're forgetting the economic aspect of repaying society for the costs of the crime.

Open the focus of the discussion from simply recivitism/deterrence to add the economic value.

Crime isnt all about the criminal. There's also the victim and society to account for. ;)

Maybe charge the corporations that make an economic KILLING off the prison population?

Interesting read about this here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289

[Keller]

Maybe charge the corporations that make an economic KILLING off the prison population?

Interesting read about this here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289

Ya, maybe it's my "liberal college education," but everything I read in college was about how the prison industrial system was about how prisons are big business, prisons need prisoners, and therefore prisons (and the corporations that profit from them) support more and more criminal laws to fill their rosters.

Sure, prisons create jobs and sustain local economies -- but that's just wealth distribution via the tax system from taxpayers to employees of the prison system.

I have some serious reservations about forcing prisoners to pay for their incarceration, not the least of which is that it would be further subsidizing big business.

[AnticorRifling]

I'm pretty sure any thread where someone badmouths Running Man you can expect no good conversation or insight so we should just close this before the name calling starts.

[Methais]

Personally i say bill them and charge interest. Why are you people empathizing with some grouping of defective cheese monkeys that deserve so much worse then free room and board + medical & education for knocking over a liquor store, or stabbing some ones grandma and stealing her purse, etc... More so when rapists, murderers, economic terrorists(embezzlers/confidence scam artists/inside traders/etc) are included in that lot.

You do realize that the majority of inmates are non-violent drug offenders right?

Besides, what are they gonna do if the prisoner doesn't pay? Arrest them?

[Mtenda]

I'm pretty sure any thread where someone badmouths Running Man you can expect no good conversation or insight so we should just close this before the name calling starts.

To be clear, I thought Running Man was the shiznite.Though my favorite cheesy Ahnold movie remains Total Recall.

http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Total_Recall/quato_total_recall_movie_image.jpg

[Gan]

Maybe charge the corporations that make an economic KILLING off the prison population?

Interesting read about this here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289

Prison industry should only support the needs of the system.

I'm not a fan of using the products of prison industry as a means of profit in the free market. Prison labor should not be used to open up that door into the marketplace. Because then you have to consider profit made as an offset of labor and how to compensate that labor if the labor is forced and in terms of relating to this thread - that presence is being paid for by each laborer as a result of being there.

[kookiegod]

Yah, thats another thread entirely. And I'd agree with Tisket in that one.

The subject at hand really is should prisoners pay?

And the answer is yes, but not just in cash, but their work and making it a harsh place to be.

~Paul

[AnticorRifling]

Make them pay with blood, sweat, and tears, not cash.

[Latrinsorm]

How likely would money driven criminals do what they do if they knew that not only would they face hard labor but also face the repossession of their assets as a form of restitution and debt relief for their incarceration?If they're money driven, by definition they are not considering the legal repercussions of their actions. You are too influenced by Adam Smith in this matter - for penalties to matter in a decision-making process, people have to believe they'll be caught. We are not magical utilitarian machines capable of or prone to weighing and weighting every outcome; we never have been, and God willing never will be.

On the "repaying society" front, how many fathers of raped women do you suppose will give a shit about the $20,000 the state gets from the rapist? Daughters of murdered mothers? Which part of society exactly is getting repaid here?

I really don't get how people noticing how we're taking a page from China's book is in any way a plus. It makes me especially puzzled when some of the same people rail against Obama's alleged socialism - what form of government does the People's Republic have again?

[Clove]

And how much do they get paid while working in prison?I'm not an expert on inmate compensation, however this PDF might be a good starting point for your research.

http://www.cji-inc.com/cyb/download/01inmatewages.pdf

[Gan]

If they're money driven, by definition they are not considering the legal repercussions of their actions. You are too influenced by Adam Smith in this matter - for penalties to matter in a decision-making process, people have to believe they'll be caught. We are not magical utilitarian machines capable of or prone to weighing and weighting every outcome; we never have been, and God willing never will be.
Perhaps, but then again - the question posted in the OP was one of economics, was it not?

I still believe that crimes that are not of passion or sociopathic are still rational decisions - and the penalties for said crimes are still considered in some way by the rational actors. Yes, I am advocating that some criminal acts are rational based.



On the "repaying society" front, how many fathers of raped women do you suppose will give a shit about the $20,000 the state gets from the rapist? Daughters of murdered mothers? Which part of society exactly is getting repaid here?
You're mixing emotion and victim's perception of justice into the equation where none was accounted for previously in this discussion. Short of death of the convicted, exactly what else would a father of a raped daughter feel closure or satisfaction? Same with family of a murdered family member.

On the other hand, ask how many residents of a particular area would give a shit about reducing their local sales tax, property tax, or state income tax by a few percentage points because of less money required to manage large metropolitan prisons?


I really don't get how people noticing how we're taking a page from China's book is in any way a plus. It makes me especially puzzled when some of the same people rail against Obama's alleged socialism - what form of government does the People's Republic have again?
I dont feel that making criminals pay for the costs of their crime, ALL the costs, is taking a page out of socialism or communism. Its interesting that you do though.
*In fact, it could be said that making society pay the burden for a prisoner's incarceration and rehabilitation is more socialistic, wouldn't you say? ;)

[Celephais]

That poster is fucking badass. Sadly, the movie was not.
... aww, I miss TerminatorX posting
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q320/dodgyknoxville/Killian/Dynamo.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

You're mixing emotion and victim's perception of justice into the equation where none was accounted for previously in this discussion. Short of death of the convicted, exactly what else would a father of a raped daughter feel closure or satisfaction? Same with family of a murdered family member.I'm fairly confident that nothing truly satisfies such unfortunate people - all the more reason for us not to play at "repaying society" as a motive. Some losses cannot be converted to a dollar amount, and attempting to do so does nothing but trivialize and demean said losses.
On the other hand, ask how many residents of a particular area would give a shit about reducing their local sales tax, property tax, or state income tax by a few percentage points because of less money required to manage large metropolitan prisons?1.3 million prisoners * $1 a day * 365 days per 130 million taxpayers = $3.65 a year. I don't know how much you pay in taxes, but I suspect it's a hell of a lot more than $400 a year. Marginally poor people already don't pay taxes, which again shows how silly this all is - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (on every side of the barb-wire fence) doesn't lead to progress, it leads to self-annihilation.
I dont feel that making criminals pay for the costs of their crime, ALL the costs, is taking a page out of socialism or communism. Its interesting that you do though.Private property confiscation is socialism 101, whether its dressed up as honorable donations to the people or land redistribution or eminent domain or judicial financial restitution. The government can say whatever it wants, the fact is it's taking more of the citizenry's stuff for "the people" or "society" or "the state".

To be clear, I don't have a problem with socialism (I do live and pay taxes in America, after all). It's just surprising to me to see that you (general) are willing to engender a sort of caste system where only the approved can participate in the shining free market, and everyone else is being treated like the people who feel the need to stand in front of rolling tanks. I also want to stress that I don't think all criminals are guiltless, mistreated, or improperly punished: just that this idea makes positively no sense.

[Gan]

I'm fairly confident that nothing truly satisfies such unfortunate people - all the more reason for us not to play at "repaying society" as a motive. Some losses cannot be converted to a dollar amount, and attempting to do so does nothing but trivialize and demean said losses.
You seem to be stuck on the emotional side of this concept. :(



1.3 million prisoners * $1 a day * 365 days per 130 million taxpayers = $3.65 a year. I don't know how much you pay in taxes, but I suspect it's a hell of a lot more than $400 a year. Marginally poor people already don't pay taxes, which again shows how silly this all is - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (on every side of the barb-wire fence) doesn't lead to progress, it leads to self-annihilation.
Poor people pay sales tax, if you want to split hairs. Poor people pay property taxes too.


Private property confiscation is socialism 101, whether its dressed up as honorable donations to the people or land redistribution or eminent domain or judicial financial restitution. The government can say whatever it wants, the fact is it's taking more of the citizenry's stuff for "the people" or "society" or "the state".
Exactly what property is the state taking in this scenario? Nobody mentioned any confiscation of property unless it is property acquired through ill gotten gains (which is already a law by the by).