Drug tests for welfare recipients?

[Trouble]

States consider drug tests for welfare recipients (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090326/ap_on_bi_ge/states_welfare_with_strings;_ylt=AnFnk.6kFrUyqmlhS jQHF7QDW7oF)


By TOM BREEN, Associated Press Writer Tom Breen, Associated Press Writer – Thu Mar 26, 9:28 am ET

CHARLESTON, W.Va. – Want government assistance? Just say no to drugs.

Lawmakers in at least eight states want recipients of food stamps, unemployment benefits or welfare to submit to random drug testing.

The effort comes as more Americans turn to these safety nets to ride out the recession. Poverty and civil liberties advocates fear the strategy could backfire, discouraging some people from seeking financial aid and making already desperate situations worse.

Those in favor of the drug tests say they are motivated out of a concern for their constituents' health and ability to put themselves on more solid financial footing once the economy rebounds. But proponents concede they also want to send a message: you don't get something for nothing.

"Nobody's being forced into these assistance programs," said Craig Blair, a Republican in the West Virginia Legislature who has created a Web site — notwithmytaxdollars.com — that bears a bobble-headed likeness of himself advocating this position. "If so many jobs require random drug tests these days, why not these benefits?"

Blair is proposing the most comprehensive measure in the country, as it would apply to anyone applying for food stamps, unemployment compensation or the federal programs usually known as "welfare": Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and Women, Infants and Children.

Lawmakers in other states are offering similar, but more modest proposals.

On Wednesday, the Kansas House of Representatives approved a measure mandating drug testing for the 14,000 or so people getting cash assistance from the state, which now goes before the state senate. In February, the Oklahoma Senate unanimously passed a measure that would require drug testing as a condition of receiving TANF benefits, and similar bills have been introduced in Missouri and Hawaii. A Florida senator has proposed a bill linking unemployment compensation to drug testing, and a member of Minnesota's House of Representatives has a bill requiring drug tests of people who get public assistance under a state program there.

A January attempt in the Arizona Senate to establish such a law failed.

In the past, such efforts have been stymied by legal and cost concerns, said Christine Nelson, a program manager with the National Conference of State Legislatures. But states' bigger fiscal crises, and the surging demand for public assistance, could change that.

"It's an example of where you could cut costs at the expense of a segment of society that's least able to defend themselves," said Frank Crabtree, executive director of the West Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Drug testing is not the only restriction envisioned for people receiving public assistance: a bill in the Tennessee Legislature would cap lottery winnings for recipients at $600.

There seems to be no coordinated move around the country to push these bills, and similar proposals have arisen periodically since federal welfare reform in the 1990s. But the appearance of a cluster of such proposals in the midst of the recession shows lawmakers are newly engaged about who is getting public assistance.

Particularly troubling to some policy analysts is the drive to drug test people collecting unemployment insurance, whose numbers nationwide now exceed 5.4 million, the highest total on records dating back to 1967.

"It doesn't seem like the kind of thing to bring up during a recession," said Ron Haskins, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. "People who are unemployed, who have lost their job, that's a sympathetic group. Americans are tuned into that, because they're worried they'll be next."

Indeed, these proposals are coming at a time when more Americans find themselves in need of public assistance.

Although the number of TANF recipients has stayed relatively stable at 3.8 million in the last year, claims for unemployment benefits and food stamps have soared.

In December, more than 31.7 million Americans were receiving food stamp benefits, compared with 27.5 million the year before.

The link between public assistance and drug testing stems from the Congressional overhaul of welfare in the 1990s, which allowed states to implement drug testing as a condition of receiving help.

But a federal court struck down a Michigan law that would have allowed for "random, suspicionless" testing, saying it violated the 4th Amendment's protections against unreasonable search and seizure, said Liz Schott, a senior fellow at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

At least six states — Indiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, Wisconsin and Virginia — tie eligibility for some public assistance to drug testing for convicted felons or parolees, according to the NCSL.

Nelson said programs that screen welfare applicants by assigning them to case workers for interviews have shown some success without the need for drug tests. These alternative measures offer treatment, but can also threaten future benefits if drug problems persist, she said.

They also cost less than the $400 or so needed for tests that can catch a sufficient range of illegal drugs, and rule out false positive results with a follow-up test, she said.

Good idea IMO.

[Keller]

Great fucking idea.

[Clove]

I have mixed opinions on this. Since I don't take illegal drugs myself, obviously my sympathy for those that do is limited. I certainly don't want tax dollars intended to help someone get their lives together go towards illegal drugs both because they're illegal and because illegal drug-use can't do anything but hinder their progress.

On the other hand:


"It's an example of where you could cut costs at the expense of a segment of society that's least able to defend themselves," said Frank Crabtree, executive director of the West Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.Unless States intend to offer rehabilitation services to people in these programs, I have to agree with the sentiment above.

[Parkbandit]

Can you imagine the costs associated with our government managing drug testing?

It'll never pass. The ACLU will be up in arms that this is an infringement of their right to privacy and the crazy ass liberal hippies will lobby hard against it.

[Back]

Does this include AIG execs as well?

[Parkbandit]

Relax Backlash.. it'll never pass.

Go smoke another bone.

[Trouble]

I support it because back in grad school in rural Maryland, I had people come up to me all the time in the grocery store wanting to pay for my groceries with their WIC cards (welfare debit cards) if I'd give em the cash. Of course they could be buying booze with the cash just as easily as drugs, but anything to cut down on the welfare abuse would be good IMO.

[Atlanteax]

I'd support as abuse of the good intentions of Welfare is way out of control.

The few (on a proportionate basis) that it does indeed help does not justify the mammoth cost of the program itself.

Better off just eliminating Welfare itself.

.

I consider programs like unemployment benefits to not fall under Welfare, as you *were* working, and it is designed to tide you over until your *next job*.

[Ignot]

This might be a little off topic but I recently found out that this guy my Dad is friends with is an illegal immigrant from Cuba whos has a mental disability and he gets $600 a month from OUR government. So he comes over here, doesn't have to work, is not even a citizen and gets tax payer money. I don't know what program that is but its fucked up.

[Back]

I support it because back in grad school in rural Maryland, I had people come up to me all the time in the grocery store wanting to pay for my groceries with their WIC cards (welfare debit cards) if I'd give em the cash. Of course they could be buying booze with the cash just as easily as drugs, but anything to cut down on the welfare abuse would be good IMO.

I get the association. But I don’t think if it passed it would really stop people from gaming the system, doing drugs or gaming the system to do drugs.

And if it were to pass I would add stipulation that every person in America subject themselves to random drug tests. Hey, everyone benefits from tax dollars.

Legalize and tax using the tax dollars for public healthcare is a better way to go.

[Clove]

This might be a little off topic but I recently found out that this guy my Dad is friends with is an illegal immigrant from Cuba whos has a mental disability and he gets $600 a month from OUR government. So he comes over here, doesn't have to work, is not even a citizen and gets tax payer money. I don't know what program that is but its fucked up.He can't be an illegal immigrant from Cuba. Cubans are granted automatic assylum once they touch American soil. If he's here from Cuba, he's legit.

[Androidpk]

WIC is different from food stamps.

[Ignot]

He can't be an illegal immigrant from Cuba. Cubans are granted automatic assylum once they touch American soil. If he's here from Cuba, he's legit.

oh maybe that's what it is. but its still fucked up.

[CrystalTears]

oh maybe that's what it is. but its still fucked up.
Fucked up that the legit citizen is getting disability because he's from Cuba? Or that he doesn't work and gets money?

[Ignot]

Fucked up that the legit citizen is getting disability because he's from Cuba? Or that he doesn't work and gets money?

Oh I forgot to mention he was a criminal in Cuba. I think its fucked up that he can get kicked out of Cuba, come over here with a mental disability, and get paid without ever contributing anything to the US. So I guess it's more that he doesn't work and gets money.

[Trouble]

WIC is different from food stamps.
It's still welfare though. Right? The way it worked in Maryland back in 1995, you could use the WIC card to pay for real groceries only (no beer/etc), which is how stamps work AFAIK.

Ah, heres the wiki entry:

The Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children (known as WIC) is a Federal assistance program of the Food and Nutrition Service (FNS) of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) for healthcare and nutrition of low-income pregnant women, breastfeeding women, and infants and children under the age of five. The eligibility requirement is a family income below 185% of the U.S. Poverty Income Guidelines. If a person who participates in other benefit programs, or has family members participate in the Food Stamp Program, Medicaid, or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, they automatically meet the eligibility requirements. This program is unrelated to the USDA's "Food Stamp" program.

[Tisket]

How about we don't single out one social service as requiring invasive privacy intrusion when we don't require any of the many, many others that involve billions more tax dollars? This is fucking shitty legislation.

Unreasonable search and seizure aside (though it absolutely is), I won't support the withdrawal of foodstamps from a family of five because Mom smoked dope. Get real. Criminalizing welfare recipients is not the answer.

[Tisket]

Great fucking idea.


I'll consider it a "great fucking idea" when you are forced to submit your home to being searched prior to any time you decide to use a public road. Also, if you want public sewer or water hookups, you'll have to have all of your medical records examined by a case worker. What's that? You watch television? Well, considering that infrastructure was subsidized with tax dollars, you won't mind the examination of all content consumed at your residence and investigation into your affairs if any pattern is discerned. Hold on, you want a police force, right? Well, I think that calls for forensic accountants to examine all of your assets to ensure you haven't illegally avoided any taxes. If you have, of course, you'll be cut off from all public assistance: roads, police, other emergency services, heat, power, FDA inspection, you know, all the stuff you leech out of my tax dollars.

See what I did there?

[Tisket]

Unless States intend to offer rehabilitation services to people in these programs, I have to agree with the sentiment above.

Nice in theory except involuntary treatment of addictions hasn't got a great long term track record.

[RichardCranium]

It's still welfare though. Right? The way it worked in Maryland back in 1995, you could use the WIC card to pay for real groceries only (no beer/etc), which is how stamps work AFAIK.

Ah, heres the wiki entry:

Except WIC tells you exactly what to buy. Milk, cheese, eggs, oats, beans, cereal, etc. Its basically a grocery list for yourself and kids up until they reach a certain age.

[Gan]

States consider drug tests for welfare recipients (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090326/ap_on_bi_ge/states_welfare_with_strings;_ylt=AnFnk.6kFrUyqmlhS jQHF7QDW7oF)



Good idea IMO.
/Agreed; however...


It'll never pass. The ACLU will be up in arms that this is an infringement of their right to privacy and the crazy ass liberal hippies will lobby hard against it.

The ACLU will sink this in a heartbeat.

[ElanthianSiren]

How about we don't single out one social service as requiring invasive privacy intrusion when we don't require any of the many, many others that involve billions more tax dollars? This is fucking shitty legislation.

Unreasonable search and seizure aside (though it absolutely is), I won't support the withdrawal of foodstamps from a family of five because Mom smoked dope. Get real. Criminalizing welfare recipients is not the answer.

:yeahthat:

Not to mention you could be criminalizing somebody for something as simple as being around atmospheric THC, depending on how sensitive the test is. I'm not an expert in drug testing, but can't the tests come up false neg/false positive rather frequently for those kind of situations?

[Mabus]

:yeahthat:

Not to mention you could be criminalizing somebody for something as simple as being around atmospheric THC, depending on how sensitive the test is. I'm not an expert in drug testing, but can't the tests come up false neg/false positive rather frequently for those kind of situations?
Used to be people could test positive from hemp oil in a health shake. That has diminished over time, as many manufacturers now require that THC concentrations be below 10 parts per million.

It all depends on "which test". There are many tests, and some are much more accurate then others.

[Kuyuk]

This is a really poorly thought out idea..

Welfare is already incredibly poorly laid out with the restrictions one can and cannot do on it. (i.e. you cant go to college and get welfare, even if you have kids)

$400 a pop for a random drug test will quickly consume a shitton of money that could be spent elsewhere for better ideas. If they drug test 50,000 people nationwide a month. thats 20 mill/month + all the extra fees (overhead, labor, contracts, etc etc). So you're looking at over 2 billion in federal funds to *not* give welfare to probably 20% of the welfare population (rough guess, has no merit).

If someone proposed this as a business proposal to any funding source, they'd be laughed at, and thats what it should be built as. We're willing to spend XYZ to hopefully save 123. Not, we're going to piss away 123 to prevent abc from getting any assisstance.

As for WIC, that is very poorly managed. I received it when I had my kid and was still in college and working for 6.25/hour. Myself and my kid are lactose intolerant, but since the government doesnt acknowledge alternatives to dairy, I still had to get (lots of) milk and cheeses. (which I gave away to people who needed it)

[Sean of the Thread]

More than likely the recipient will have to pay for the drug testing themselves.

[Jayvn]

lol... ohhai i'm here for monies cause i got none.. oh i have to pay for a test?

I could see them having to pay if they fail.. also if it's a govt run test setup ...by the same govt that spends 100 dollars on a wrench... then a drug test isn't going to affect their budgeting that much.

[Jayvn]

i'm all for assistance for 'needy' people... but it pisses me off to see a mother fucker come in spending 20 dollars on chips and soda with ebt... maybe if they weren't highthey wouldn't need so much damn chips and soda

[Sean]

This might be a little off topic but I recently found out that this guy my Dad is friends with is an illegal immigrant from Cuba whos has a mental disability and he gets $600 a month from OUR government. So he comes over here, doesn't have to work, is not even a citizen and gets tax payer money. I don't know what program that is but its fucked up.

He doesn't have to work because he makes $600/mo?

[Stanley Burrell]

i'm all for assistance for 'needy' people... but it pisses me off to see a mother fucker come in spending 20 dollars on chips and soda with ebt... maybe if they weren't highthey wouldn't need so much damn chips and soda

The solution is to make sure they smoke lots of cheap crack and meth to control their appetites, but stay away from the ganj'.

OMG, I just solved the welfare crisis :clap:

[g++]

He doesn't have to work because he makes $600/mo?

I could live on 600 dollars a month if I didnt have to go to work...I spend half the money I make at least just being a functional worker.

On the broader issue I am not sure pulling government assistance from people who fail drug tests and are on food stamps is a super idea without some plan to redirect the people they pull it from. Starving, high, and broke is a great way to make the violent crime/theft/burglary stats for your area skyrocket. People are going to get money to eat and be high whether they line up for a check or jimmy open your slider.

[Stanley Burrell]

Also, with cigarette prices being what they are, should we screen for nicotine to make sure that welfare recipients aren't using the taxpayers' money on anything except breathing and blinking?

[Jayvn]

yes

[Stanley Burrell]

Also, with cigarette prices being what they are, should we screen for nicotine to make sure that welfare recipients aren't using the taxpayers' money on anything except breathing and blinking?


yes

Think about all the job loss this will create for the Newport factory workers. For shame :(

[Stanley Burrell]

JKz, I know all hobos are black and smoke Newports, but I saw a white homeless person once: And he was definitely puffing on a Marlboro.

[LMingrone]

JKz, I know all hobos are black and smoke Newports, but I saw a white homeless person once: And he was definitely puffing on a Marlboro.

Kinda funny you brought that up SB. I might have saved a homeless guy's life yesterday. Dude had a pack of Newports and a pint of Majorska on the ground next to him as he was sleeping in the bushes. He was white by the way. Everyone thought he was dead, but I was the only one who actually thought, "hey, maybe we should call 911" after four hours.

I had no intention of getting the guy in trouble, he could sleep his drunk ass off all day for all i care...but I wanted to make sure he was still alive. Took the cops and EMTs about two hours to get the guy up and moving, and then drove em off to the hospital. I SAVED A LIFE!

[Jorddyn]

Also, with cigarette prices being what they are, should we screen for nicotine to make sure that welfare recipients aren't using the taxpayers' money on anything except breathing and blinking?

Is there a "breathing and blinking fee" of which I'm unaware?

[Ignot]

He doesn't have to work because he makes $600/mo?

No he can't work because he has a disability and the government gives him $600/mo. So Cuba shipped over a disabled criminal and our government supports him. :shrug: just doesn't seem right to me.

[CrystalTears]

No he can't work because he has a disability and the government gives him $600/mo. So Cuba shipped over a disabled criminal and our government supports him. :shrug: just doesn't seem right to me.
Cuba shipped over a lot of criminals as basically a fuck you for opening up the shores to Cubans and receive asylum.

But my question to you is, do you think it's fucked up that Americans get disability and don't work?

[Sean of the Thread]

I guess it depends on the disability. I currently can't do any heavy/manual labor but I can do office or data entry with a torn rotator cuff that I can't get surg on but refuse to goto the the SS office to apply for disability.

It just cuts my work options down atm which are slim as it is anyways.

I view disability here as in the fact I've paid into it my entire working career I feel I am entitled to it if I so desired.

Not sure where I stand on the other issues.

[Mabus]

Also, with cigarette prices being what they are, should we screen for nicotine to make sure that welfare recipients aren't using the taxpayers' money on anything except breathing and blinking?
On another forum (for game coders) legalization came up, and one fella said "Most marijuana smokers mix tobacco with marijuana in their joints", which I disagreed with. He vehemently argued this was the case.

I have met one person in my life that mixed the two. Is this some common practice that I have missed hearing about all these years, or is this some nerd coder talking out of his ass as if he knew about pot?

There. I stanleyed a Stanley post.

[Allereli]

On another forum (for game coders) legalization came up, and one fella said "Most marijuana smokers mix tobacco with marijuana in their joints", which I disagreed with. He vehemently argued this was the case.

I have met one person in my life that mixed the two. Is this some common practice that I have missed hearing about all these years, or is this some nerd coder talking out of his ass as if he knew about pot?

There. I stanleyed a Stanley post.

Most people have done it, but most prefer not to most of the time they smoke.

Maybe it's more popular now, been a while since I was around that crowd.

[Trouble]

Nobody I know ever did that. The closest I've seen to it was when people would empty out their cigs and put pot in them (maybe with a tobacco cap at the end).

It's been a long while since I've been around that crowd too, so things may have changed.

[Ignot]

But my question to you is, do you think it's fucked up that Americans get disability and don't work?

No.

[thefarmer]

I guess it depends on the disability.

What difference would it make how they qualified for disability? Are some issues/problems ok and some aren't?

[Sean]

On another forum (for game coders) legalization came up, and one fella said "Most marijuana smokers mix tobacco with marijuana in their joints", which I disagreed with. He vehemently argued this was the case.

I have met one person in my life that mixed the two. Is this some common practice that I have missed hearing about all these years, or is this some nerd coder talking out of his ass as if he knew about pot?

There. I stanleyed a Stanley post.

I always understood that to be a more European trend.

[CrystalTears]

But my question to you is, do you think it's fucked up that Americans get disability and don't work?


No.
Okay so you have a problem with immigrants. Fine. But don't say it's because they're not working and getting money from the gov't because it bothers you when immigrants do it but not people born here.

[Androidpk]

Except WIC tells you exactly what to buy. Milk, cheese, eggs, oats, beans, cereal, etc. Its basically a grocery list for yourself and kids up until they reach a certain age.

Exactly. Also, i'm not sure if this goes for every state, WIC is not transferable. If your name is not on the WIC check you cannot use it.


On another forum (for game coders) legalization came up, and one fella said "Most marijuana smokers mix tobacco with marijuana in their joints", which I disagreed with. He vehemently argued this was the case.

I have met one person in my life that mixed the two. Is this some common practice that I have missed hearing about all these years, or is this some nerd coder talking out of his ass as if he knew about pot?

There. I stanleyed a Stanley post.

Mixing weed and tobacco is a very common and popular practice in Europe. Supposedly it makes the weed burn better. I've tried it a few times and didn't really care for it.

[diethx]

Okay so you have a problem with immigrants. Fine. But don't say it's because they're not working and getting money from the gov't because it bothers you when immigrants do it but not people born here.

I think he was more upset because the dude came here and never worked, just got disability. So it's kinda like he came to this country to live off the tax payers and never really contributed anything first.

[Ignot]

I think he was more upset because the dude came here and never worked, just got disability. So it's kinda like he came to this country to live off the tax payers and never really contributed anything first.

Yes. Thank you Diethx. I don't know if anyone notices but quite often someone has to explain my post to another person so I realize that I suck at trying to explain myself. :P

[CrystalTears]

I think he was more upset because the dude came here and never worked, just got disability. So it's kinda like he came to this country to live off the tax payers and never really contributed anything first.


Yes. Thank you Diethx. I don't know if anyone notices but quite often someone has to explain my post to another person so I realize that I suck at trying to explain myself. :P
If you say so. But to me it sounded like all things being equal except where someone was born, you'd be more upset with the immigrant than the born American.

What, because there are no useless people who were born here, haven't done a fucking thing for this country and is living off this country? Be upset with that concept. Be upset with the government for allowing Cubans getting asylum. Be upset with the government not doing shit about illegal immigrants. But to be upset with the person from Cuba and not from America is being a bit hypocritical.

[Rocktar]

Why should we test for drug use? We don't test for citizenship or legal residency, for outstanding felony warrents or even state residency in some cases. Hell, we don't even do anything substantial to check identity in most cases. Perhaps some of those kinds of checks should be instituted first.

[Jayvn]

I'd say it goes back to the beginning of the thread..whoever mentioned the comment about .. if you have to be drug tested to get 'a job'..then why the fuck not get drug tested to get free money you don't do shit for aside from sit on your ass and wait for it.... i paraphrased.

[Jayvn]

what the fuck is there a link in that last sentence for? is our forums spamming now?

[Androidpk]

I'd say it goes back to the beginning of the thread..whoever mentioned the comment about .. if you have to be drug tested to get 'a job'..then why the fuck not get drug tested to get free money you don't do shit for aside from sit on your ass and wait for it.... i paraphrased.

Singling out a group of people least able to protect themselves is not the right choice.

[Ignot]

If you say so. But to me it sounded like all things being equal except where someone was born, you'd be more upset with the immigrant than the born American.


You are reaching on this one CT. I think you are looking for something that isnt there. I didn't come across like that at all and obviously some people understood what I was saying. Don't try and make this into something it isn't.

[Jayvn]

Singling out a group of people least able to protect themselves is not the right choice.

Least able to protect themselves from not doing drugs? what the fuck?

[Tisket]

I'd say it goes back to the beginning of the thread..whoever mentioned the comment about .. if you have to be drug tested to get 'a job'..then why the fuck not get drug tested to get free money you don't do shit for aside from sit on your ass and wait for it.... i paraphrased.

You want to apply rules of employment to welfare recipients? Have I got that right? When dealing with civilians, the government cannot mandate urinalysis for any reason without probable cause. Doing so would be a fucking abject failure to abide by the constitution.

[Androidpk]

Least able to protect themselves from not doing drugs? what the fuck?

Access to laywers.

[Clove]

I think he was more upset because the dude came here and never worked, just got disability. So it's kinda like he came to this country to live off the tax payers and never really contributed anything first.That's a policy we established. We invited Cubans to come here for amnesty without limitation. If it were another country it wouldn't be legal. This is why Castro emptied his mental hospitals and prisons, "you want Cubans, you got Cubans America."

Since we invited him here, we also agreed to give him the same social protections as any native-born American. To say that you don't have a problem with an American citizen receiving benefits but not a legal immigrant is somewhat of a double standard. There are certainly enough worthless native-born citizens languishing around.

If you want to get upset about something get upset over the illegal, uninvited immigrants that we still give fucking welfare, unemployment and disability to.

[Clove]

I'd say it goes back to the beginning of the thread..whoever mentioned the comment about .. if you have to be drug tested to get 'a job'..then why the fuck not get drug tested to get free money you don't do shit for aside from sit on your ass and wait for it.... i paraphrased.Because being an addict doesn't mean you deserve to be marginalized and left to die (and of course, if you are collecting unemployment you are obviously employable). I have no problem making aid contingent on abstention from illegal drug use provided we offer support getting an addict clean, first. At least then you won't be encouraging people who need help not to get help. With the costs associated with drug testing AND rehabilitation programs, I really doubt it would save anyone money. Instead this is an attempt to toss people with the least resources aside and besides being insensitive this can have a damaging effect on our society as a whole by driving already desperate people towards more desperate alternatives- i.e. crime.

[CrystalTears]

You are reaching on this one CT. I think you are looking for something that isnt there. I didn't come across like that at all and obviously some people understood what I was saying. Don't try and make this into something it isn't.
You agreed with diethx with her summary of your feelings in that someone from another country getting government help wasn't right. When I asked if you cared if someone born here did the same thing, you said no. That's a double standard. What exactly am I looking into that wasn't stated?

[Ignot]

You agreed with diethx with her summary of your feelings in that someone from another country getting government help wasn't right.

No, that isn't the issue. It was this one scenario and you are trying to make it something bigger then it is. You are trying to spin it, making it seem like I only think Americans should have disability, which is not the case. In this one scenario, Cuba sent a disabled criminal to the US, we took him in, and the US picks up the tab for the rest of his life. He never contributed anything to the US. That is alot different then someone coming over here, working, and THEN getting disability, which I have no problem with. Do you see how that one scenario is different?

Is anyone else not understanding what I thought was fucked up in my original post?

[ElanthianSiren]

No, that isn't the issue. It was this one scenario and you are trying to make it something bigger then it is. You are trying to spin it, making it seem like I only think Americans should have disability, which is not the case. In this one scenario, Cuba sent a disabled criminal to the US, we took him in, and the US picks up the tab for the rest of his life. He never contributed anything to the US. That is alot different then someone coming over here, working, and THEN getting disability, which I have no problem with. Do you see how that one scenario is different?

Is anyone else not understanding what I thought was fucked up in my original post?


Not really. I'd take bigger issue with the US Policy toward cuba and the way that it's sanctioned what you seem to be taking issue with, as Clove noted.

It's your opinion though and you're welcome to finish formulating it and expressing it. I'm just not sure where you're going with it.

Is it because you feel the guy purposely wanted to leave his home to come here because he had researched the US policy ahead of time and knew what awaited him and you feel it's a loophole?

[Stanley Burrell]

Kinda funny you brought that up SB. I might have saved a homeless guy's life yesterday. Dude had a pack of Newports and a pint of Majorska on the ground next to him as he was sleeping in the bushes. He was white by the way. Everyone thought he was dead, but I was the only one who actually thought, "hey, maybe we should call 911" after four hours.

I had no intention of getting the guy in trouble, he could sleep his drunk ass off all day for all i care...but I wanted to make sure he was still alive. Took the cops and EMTs about two hours to get the guy up and moving, and then drove em off to the hospital. I SAVED A LIFE!

Whenever I see a homeless person who appears particularly stagnate, first I'll try offering them a cooked meal. Then money. And if they're unresponsive to that: I dunno. Calling 9-1-1 is the right thing to do at that point. It's a coin toss as to whether I'd be a bitch about it or not.

[CrystalTears]

No, that isn't the issue. It was this one scenario and you are trying to make it something bigger then it is. You are trying to spin it, making it seem like I only think Americans should have disability, which is not the case. In this one scenario, Cuba sent a disabled criminal to the US, we took him in, and the US picks up the tab for the rest of his life. He never contributed anything to the US. That is alot different then someone coming over here, working, and THEN getting disability, which I have no problem with. Do you see how that one scenario is different?

Is anyone else not understanding what I thought was fucked up in my original post?
There's no spin. You said that someone got disability after coming here from another country and never had to work to get it. I asked you if you felt a natural-born American doing the same thing bothered you and you said no. So either you're explaining it wrong, or you have a problem with immigrants and don't want to admit it. You have a right to that opinion, but just fess up to it.

You're also entitled to not like how the government welfare system is run, despite where that person originated from. Just don't tell me it's okay that natural-born American can get handouts but someone from Cuba can't. Get upset with the asylum policy with Cuba, but don't get mad at someone for wanting to live better and coming to our country to get it.

[Ignot]

There's no spin.

Yeah there is and it's fucking annoying when I have to keep explaining myself. Are you even reading my posts or what? I explained that I thought that one scenario is fucked up. I guess that means I hate all immigrants. I give up.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah there is and it's fucking annoying when I have to keep explaining myself. Are you even reading my posts or what? I explained that I thought that one scenario is fucked up. I guess that means I hate all immigrants. I give up.
I get what you're saying that it's fucked up that someone from another country coming here and never having to earn his keep ever is getting money from our government. And I'm just saying that people who were born here who didn't do shit either are getting the same benefits, but you don't seem to have no problem with them. Which part am I getting wrong?

[Ignot]

I get what you're saying that it's fucked up that someone from another country coming here and never having to earn his keep ever is getting money from our government. And I'm just saying that people who were born here who didn't do shit either are getting the same benefits, but you don't seem to have no problem with them. Which part am I getting wrong?

I guess the second part because if they were born here then they would have worked and then became disabled, so at least they would have contributed something. I mean, we aren't talking about disabled children right because that's a whole different ball game.

[Clove]

I guess the second part because if they were born here then they would have worked and then became disabled, so at least they would have contributed something. I mean, we aren't talking about disabled children right because that's a whole different ball game.Take it up with US foreign policy. Like I said he IS a legal US citizen. If he were an illegal I'd grant your point, but we've agreed to take him in and pay him disability. What exactly would you prefer? We let him starve to death, or kick him out?

[Ignot]

Fine! You political thread people win. I can't take anymore. I will make PB happy and go post pictures of boobs or something...

[RichardCranium]

Ignot doesn't care about Cuban people.

[Back]

Cubanismos are a cocky lot. But I would not denigrate them for it.

[Stanley Burrell]

I <3 Cuban food.

VIVA FIDEL!

[thefarmer]

Yeah there is and it's fucking annoying when I have to keep explaining myself. Are you even reading my posts or what? I explained that I thought that one scenario is fucked up. I guess that means I hate all immigrants. I give up.

See below for why I think CT's not spinning anything...


Oh I forgot to mention he was a criminal in Cuba. I think its fucked up that he can get kicked out of Cuba, come over here with a mental disability, and get paid without ever contributing anything to the US. So I guess it's more that he doesn't work and gets money.


Originally Posted by CrystalTears

But my question to you is, do you think it's fucked up that Americans get disability and don't work?


No.

From those quote, and your posts I get this:

1)You do NOT think it's fucked up if "Americans" get disability and don't work.

2)You DO think it's fucked up if "Immigrants"* get disability and don't work.

*Where immigrant here actually means a Cuban born naturalized US citizen.

So the conclusion that I get is that disability is different when it applies to immigrants.

[thefarmer]

Going back to the article.. this part amused me.


Drug testing is not the only restriction envisioned for people receiving public assistance: a bill in the Tennessee Legislature would cap lottery winnings for recipients at $600.

If you win the Powerball for 342489724342523 million dollars don't think about that celebratory joint, or they gonna take your cash!

[diethx]

See below for why I think CT's not spinning anything...







From those quote, and your posts I get this:

1)You do NOT think it's fucked up if "Americans" get disability and don't work.

2)You DO think it's fucked up if "Immigrants"* get disability and don't work.

*Where immigrant here actually means a Cuban born naturalized US citizen.

So the conclusion that I get is that disability is different when it applies to immigrants.

Except the difference is, don't most Americans get disability after working for some period of time and paying taxes? This guy never worked here at all, and I think that's what Ignot's problem with him is. Unless you're disabled as a child (which Ignot even said he wasn't talking about), you're gonna work at least some before collecting disability. So at least you make an effort to be self-sufficient and a contributing member of society rather then just moving here to live off the rest of us. And that's what Ignot is saying this guy did. Which is pretty shitty, however our laws on that are just as much to blame as the Cuban is.

[Clove]

Except the difference is, don't most Americans get disability after working for some period of time and paying taxes?Yes, but not necessarily (according to your own statement). Therefore Ignot is imposing a double-standard.

/argument

[Deathravin]

amazing how a thread can be completely derailed by Ignot voicing his opinion and being torn a new asshole for it. Ignot is just upset at the wrong thing. He's taking his feelings about the US stance on people from Cuba and associating it with his father's friend getting welfare by proxy. or something...

My mother works for the Social Security office, and is Catholic. She noticed that nuns were getting Social Security benefits and had a big problem with it. I'm 50/50 about that, but if you want to discuss that as a another derailment... go...


NEWAY... back to the original topic... If the US policies are still going to be to be at war with drugs, then drug testing welfare recipients is a good idea. Putting aside all the debate on if drugs should be legalized or not, it's a good idea.

However, I agree that crime would probably skyrocket, just like all drug-related policy, it creates more crime. But that's how American's like to live; good and scared.

[Tisket]

I'm going to boldly go out on a limb here and assert that it's quite likely you have no fucking clue what you're posting about.

[diethx]

Yes, but not necessarily (according to your own statement). Therefore Ignot is imposing a double-standard.

And didn't he already say that he wasn't talking about those that become disabled as children, he was simply talking about adults who become disabled and can't work anymore?

[Clove]

And didn't he already say that he wasn't talking about those that become disabled as children, he was simply talking about adults who become disabled and can't work anymore?How magnanimous of him. As has been pointed out (numerous times) there are plenty of native-born citizens that abuse our social programs. Thanks for playing.

[Parkbandit]

Fine! You political thread people win. I can't take anymore. I will make PB happy and go post pictures of boobs or something...

?

Why is it you single out me when I haven't even been part of your discussion?

Could it be that I labeled you an fucking ignorant dumbass months ago and everyone else is just realizing it now? The ONE time you attempt to actually try to participate in a topic and illustrate how weak you are... you decide to pull off some sort of French maneuver and call retreat.

This is me laughing at you.

:lol:

[Tisket]

I thought he meant that boobs would make you happy.

[Parkbandit]

I thought he meant that boobs would make you happy.

They certainly would.. but he's trying to make me happy by leaving the political threads.

I could be persuaded that you are right though.. with a nice PM of your boobies :)

[Tisket]

Left myself open for that one. lmao.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

They certainly would.. but he's trying to make me happy by leaving the political threads.

I could be persuaded that you are right though.. with a nice PM of your boobies :)


False.

Boobs do not make ParkBandit happy, as boobs that are not politically aligned with ParkBandit are slandered as being fat boobs and otherwise displeasing.

[Parkbandit]

False.

Boobs do not make ParkBandit happy, as boobs that are not politically aligned with ParkBandit are slandered as being fat boobs and otherwise displeasing.

Your warped political views had nothing to do with my accurate review of your picture and video presentations.

PS - Why do you always do this to yourself? Do you enjoy pain?

:)

[Ignot]

?

Why is it you single out me when I haven't even been part of your discussion?

Could it be that I labeled you an fucking ignorant dumbass months ago and everyone else is just realizing it now? The ONE time you attempt to actually try to participate in a topic and illustrate how weak you are... you decide to pull off some sort of French maneuver and call retreat.

This is me laughing at you.

:lol:

This type of sensitivity only further illustrates my point that you are indeed a woman. And I thought you would have got the joke considering you Neg Repped me telling me to stick to posting pictures about boobs. Wait, even women have a sense of humor....what are you? :thinking:

2692

[diethx]

How magnanimous of him. As has been pointed out (numerous times) there are plenty of native-born citizens that abuse our social programs. Thanks for playing.

That's fine, but when asked if he had a problem with Americans becoming disabled and not working, he said no, and that's what you're all jumping on him for. I don't believe he said it didn't bother him when native-born Americans abuse our social programs, did he?

It seems to me like you two were talking about two different situations and while he's poorly tried to elaborate on what he meant, you guys just want to jump down his throat because he couldn't articulate it properly.

[Clove]

That's fine, but when asked if he had a problem with Americans becoming disabled and not working, he said no, and that's what you're all jumping on him for. I don't believe he said it didn't bother him when native-born Americans abuse our social programs, did he?

It seems to me like you two were talking about two different situations and while he's poorly tried to elaborate on what he meant, you guys just want to jump down his throat because he couldn't articulate it properly.Perhaps he should say that then, but it isn't what he said and he made a point of focusing on the fact that this citizen wasn't born here. Instead of saying from the beginning that he had a problem with anyone abusing our social system, he came off sounding like an asshole. I'm sure if you give him a hug though he'll be okay.

[diethx]

Perhaps he should say that then, but it isn't what he said and he made a point of focusing on the fact that this citizen wasn't born here. Instead of saying from the beginning that he had a problem with anyone abusing our social system, he came off sounding like an asshole. I'm sure if you give him a hug though he'll be okay.

It sounded like he was trying to say that, at least to me, but I wasn't too busy trying to jump down his throat for something I thought he might have meant. :shrug:

[Ignot]

he came off sounding like an asshole.

:wtf: Look I didn't mean to get you and CT's panties in a bunch. I just expressed my opinion and most people got it. You can say you had trouble getting it but you were really just looking for someone to hate on, which is why you blew it out of proportion. It's cool, though. Nobody will stop you from being a hater. :popcorn:

[CrystalTears]

It sounded like he was trying to say that, at least to me, but I wasn't too busy trying to jump down his throat for something I thought he might have meant. :shrug:
Just stop. If you really want to help him out, just stop "defending" him. You're making it worse.

:wtf: Look I didn't mean to get you and CT's panties in a bunch. I just expressed my opinion and most people got it. You can say you had trouble getting it but you were really just looking for someone to hate on, which is why you blew it out of proportion. It's cool, though. Nobody will stop you from being a hater. :popcorn:I just wanted clarification. I don't like double standards. Had you said from the beginning that people taking advantages of loopholes in our welfare/social security system is fucked up, I wouldn't have said a word.

Singling out legal immigrants irritated me. Had you mentioned some illegal immigrant I wouldn't have said anything either. In a way it affected me personally because it has nothing to do with the person getting the disability, as it is that the system is flawed and he's taking advantage of it, just like many natural-born Americans do.

That was my issue (aside from singling out Cubans, dur). I'm sorry that you took it as some sort of vendetta against you. I don't care enough about you as an individual to do so, but the topic does.

[Tsa`ah]

This would be nothing more than more institutional classism and I have to agree that it would exasperate crime rates.

It would be one thing if, as mentioned, some sort of rehab were offered ... but even then (providing multiple failures) you're doing nothing more than punishing children.

If something like this were to pass, it would have to be all inclusive. Before you receive any sort of benefit from the government ... you have to pass a drug screening. Bailouts, paychecks, tax credits/write offs, welfare, unemployment, grants ... so on and so forth.

[Keller]

If something like this were to pass, it would have to be all inclusive. Before you receive any sort of benefit from the government ... you have to pass a drug screening. Bailouts, paychecks, tax credits/write offs, welfare, unemployment, grants ... so on and so forth.

"It would have to be all inclusive" -- why?

In order for you to agree with it? Or for it to pass contitutional scrutiny?

[Tsa`ah]

"It would have to be all inclusive" -- why?

In order for you to agree with it? Or for it to pass contitutional scrutiny?

Both?

I would possibly concede on unemployment benefits ... though treatment would still have to be readily available.

Constitutional scrutiny, namely the 14th. I don't see how you can put strings on one set of government provided benefits (to the poor and/or unemployed) and not even ask a question for others. I guess to defend it you would have to point out selective service.

[Sean of the Thread]

Uhm I sort of agree with you.

[Tisket]

Constitutional scrutiny, namely the 14th.

It would violate the fourth amendment. Grievously.

[Keller]

Both?

I would possibly concede on unemployment benefits ... though treatment would still have to be readily available.

Constitutional scrutiny, namely the 14th. I don't see how you can put strings on one set of government provided benefits (to the poor and/or unemployed) and not even ask a question for others. I guess to defend it you would have to point out selective service.

What is the protected class?

[Sean of the Thread]

I say all illegal immigrants should have to pay up front hands down. How they manage to get welfare I'll never understand.

I know the ER is a different story but it's unreal.

*wic is a different story however. Children need to fucking eat illegal or not.

[diethx]

Just stop. If you really want to help him out, just stop "defending" him. You're making it worse.

I don't think so, and I think if he thought so, he'd have said something. The fact remains that you and Clove have a hardon for what he said because you didn't like how he said it, and when you got your clarification after I tried to help clear up the confusion the first time (and he agreed that my interpretation was spot on), you both still went on riding his ass.

Ok, we get it, you don't like the fact that he didn't articulate himself properly. But now you know what he meant, and it's time to let it go.

[Stanley Burrell]

I used the word "stagnate," incorrectly, as an adjective in what is now post #64 in this thread.



/wrists

[CrystalTears]

I don't think so, and I think if he thought so, he'd have said something. The fact remains that you and Clove have a hardon for what he said because you didn't like how he said it, and when you got your clarification after I tried to help clear up the confusion the first time (and he agreed that my interpretation was spot on), you both still went on riding his ass.

Ok, we get it, you don't like the fact that he didn't articulate himself properly. But now you know what he meant, and it's time to let it go.
I think you lecturing me about "letting it go" is fucking hilarious.

He agreed with your DOUBLE STANDARD explanation. GREAT JOB! I was wondering if that's really what he meant, and I don't think so at this point.

As for Ignot, I explained my position for clarification. I'm done tormenting the poor soul for what he initially said.

[diethx]

Double standard? So disliking that someone comes here simply to take advantage of the shitty laws we have in place is horrible because you don't blame American children who become disabled and therefore aren't able to work?

Someone being born here and becoming disabled as a child does not equal being disabled elsewhere and then coming here just to take advantage of our policies because what we offer our citizens is better than what their country offers them. And like I said in one of my earlier posts, our laws are just as much to blame as the immigrants. Doesn't make it any less shitty.

[CrystalTears]

Double standard? So disliking that someone comes here simply to take advantage of the shitty laws we have in place is horrible because you don't blame American children who become disabled and therefore aren't able to work?

Someone being born here and becoming disabled as a child does not equal being disabled elsewhere and then coming here just to take advantage of our policies because what we offer our citizens is better than what their country offers them. And like I said in one of my earlier posts, our laws are just as much to blame as the immigrants. Doesn't make it any less shitty.
It's an issue with the law, not the person who is able to take advantage of the situation. Although with the way you're discussing it, you're making it sound like this immigrant pounded himself in the head so that he'd be mentally unstable after finding out that Americans will take you as is and support you.

Cubans are given asylum by just getting their little asses across the ocean and touching their little toesies on American soil. If you were living in a fucking asshole country and wanted to live better, wouldn't you? Or would you just stay in that crappy country and say, nah, I didn't work there, I don't deserve their good graces.

Give me a fucking break with natural-born Americans citizens > naturalized citizens. It's a shitty law to some because it's allowing more dead beats into this country, but to them, it's a fucking godsend.

[Ignot]

Give me a fucking break with natural-born Americans citizens > naturalized citizens.

This is still going on? As stated before, the thing I thought was fucked up is that he never contributed to the US, there are plenty of illegal and legal immigrants who come to the US and contribute and I have no problem with them getting government assistance. It was never about natural-born Americans citizens > naturalized citizens. I never said we need to change the law, I never said our US foreign policy sucks, and I never said immigrants shouldn't have the same rights as natural born citizens. I just pointed out a situation that I thought was a little fucked up and I would have loved to of heard what people's opinions were on THAT subject. YOU, however, read waaay to much into it and put some twisted spin on me hating immigrants (wtf?). And even after it was explained to you, you continued your attack. I realize it is a sensitive issue for you as you have stated that before and I respect that and I understand that I am not the best at getting my point across so if you misinterpreted what I said then I apologize and I still got love for you.

Okay, I hope it's all over now. If there really needs to be further discussion over the issue then make a new thread about it, I think we hijacked this one enough.

[Stanley Burrell]

This is still going on? As stated before, the thing I thought was fucked up is that he never contributed to the US, there are plenty of illegal and legal immigrants who come to the US and contribute and I have no problem with them getting government assistance. It was never about natural-born Americans citizens > naturalized citizens. I never said we need to change the law, I never said our US foreign policy sucks, and I never said immigrants shouldn't have the same rights as natural born citizens. I just pointed out a situation that I thought was a little fucked up and I would have loved to of heard what people's opinions were on THAT subject. YOU, however, read waaay to much into it and put some twisted spin on me hating immigrants (wtf?). And even after it was explained to you, you continued your attack. I realize it is a sensitive issue for you as you have stated that before and I respect that and I understand that I am not the best at getting my point across so if you misinterpreted what I said then I apologize and I still got love for you.

Okay, I hope it's all over now. If there really needs to be further discussion over the issue then make a new thread about it, I think we hijacked this one enough.

Why u hate cubanz so much? Racist.

[CrystalTears]

This is still going on? As stated before, the thing I thought was fucked up is that he never contributed to the US, there are plenty of illegal and legal immigrants who come to the US and contribute and I have no problem with them getting government assistance. It was never about natural-born Americans citizens > naturalized citizens.Then you should never have said "No" when I asked if it bothered you when Americans do the same thing. Same thing meaning they don't work and are collecting disability.
I just pointed out a situation that I thought was a little fucked up and I would have loved to of heard what people's opinions were on THAT subject. YOU, however, read waaay to much into it and put some twisted spin on me hating immigrants (wtf?).And you got a response. And at the time it sounded like you had a problem with immigrants, legal or not, so I needed to address that.
And even after it was explained to you, you continued your attack.No, you never explained it perfectly how you felt until this very post. You agreed with diethx who apparently represents how most people on the PC feel. Apparently if people aren't challenging it, it's because they agree with it. Not true.
I realize it is a sensitive issue for you as you have stated that before and I respect that and I understand that I am not the best at getting my point across so if you misinterpreted what I said then I apologize and I still got love for you.Fair enough. No hard feelings.

[Keller]

Why u hate cubanz so much? Racist.

Yes! Cuban B.

[diethx]

You agreed with diethx who apparently represents how most people on the PC feel. Apparently if people aren't challenging it, it's because they agree with it. Not true.

No, but I also don't have a sensitivity on the issue that could make me jump to conclusions by reading into things way too much, no matter how people try to set shit straight. And i've been saying exactly what Ignot said in his last post, THIS WHOLE TIME. You can't seem you wrap your head around the fact that one shitty situation does not equal immigrants fucking suck and Americans are better.

Oh, and that's not even CLOSE to what I said, either. I said if Ignot felt I was making his situation worse, he would've spoken up about it. Nice attempt to try and twist my words now.

[CrystalTears]

Seeing as how I'm not up to a pissing contest with you, since you get off on that kind of thing, I'll just end this with "whatever you say".

[diethx]

I'm not trying to have a pissing contest. I mean, i'm not going to say I don't enjoy riling some people up, but I like you (usually :D). But you really need to take a step back and realize how you're twisting shit around to mean more than it actually does.

I really doubt Ignot has a problem with Cubans or any other type of immigrants in general. I know I don't, unless they're here illegally. :shrug:

[Parkbandit]

This type of sensitivity only further illustrates my point that you are indeed a woman. And I thought you would have got the joke considering you Neg Repped me telling me to stick to posting pictures about boobs. Wait, even women have a sense of humor....what are you? :thinking:

2692

If I was a woman, I would definately be a lesbian.

And my negative rep actually stated that your only redeeming quality on these boards is your avatar. Get it straight.

[Clove]

I suppose my issue with Ignot's post was that it began from a position of ignorance. He assumed this person was illegal and implied that he was abusing the system. In reality we made it a matter of policy to extend asylum to anyone who could get here from Cuba even if they could not be contributing members of society. In otherwords it was understood when we established the policy that we might be taking charity cases.

To be frank, in my opinion most immigrants (legal or otherwise) do contribute as much (if not more) than the average native-born citizen; however consider that a Cuban has to survive a communist dictatorship in a country that is literally falling apart and has shortages in nearly everything but rum and tobacco (largely due to US foreign policy) before escaping the island to navigate 90 miles of open ocean and get past the US Coast Guard to receive our asylum. I don't know about you but if I had to "pay" that much for my citizenship, I seriously doubt I'd have a voter's card right now.

In a nutshell the Cuban receiving public assistance (not having had contributed) is no different than the native-born American born with a disability; both are legally entitled to it. If you think those laws/policy's are fucked-up, then I suppose they are up for debate, but don't blame the individuals legally receiving them- they aren't abusing anything.

[crb]

How about we don't single out one social service as requiring invasive privacy intrusion when we don't require any of the many, many others that involve billions more tax dollars? This is fucking shitty legislation.

Unreasonable search and seizure aside (though it absolutely is), I won't support the withdrawal of foodstamps from a family of five because Mom smoked dope. Get real. Criminalizing welfare recipients is not the answer.
I would.

I think test for nicotine and alcohol too.

I support legalization of marijuana of course, but if I'm going to be subsidizing your life as a tax payer you can at least quit the vices while I'm paying, eh? Its like someone invites you out to eat and you order the most expensive thing on the menu, its disrespectful.

In fact I'd go a step further. Change the whole alcohol and tobacco system, if you're on welfare, you're not allowed to buy them, period. Then card everyone to check, put a chip in licenses or whatever.

[Tisket]

I would.

I think test for nicotine and alcohol too.

You're wrong. Happens, don't feel too badly about it.

Aside from the basic violation of rights this would entail, no one deserves to live in squalor or to be examined like some fucking biology dissection.

If you are going to at least pretend that the needy need help, then all you can do is offer the goddamn help and hope that they will treat it somewhat responsibly.

[Stanley Burrell]

You're wrong. Happens, don't feel too badly about it.

Aside from the basic violation of rights this would entail, no one deserves to live in squalor or to be examined like some fucking biology dissection.

If you are going to at least pretend that the needy need help, then all you can do is offer the goddamn help and hope that they will treat it somewhat responsibly.

Plus, I'm pretty sure you'd have more DTs in one day then there would be in the recorded history of fermentation.

High % ethanol beverages aren't a money problem if the Welfare Recipient has a bit of shame? Cigarette prices are hefty.

[Daniel]

I would.

I think test for nicotine and alcohol too.

I support legalization of marijuana of course, but if I'm going to be subsidizing your life as a tax payer you can at least quit the vices while I'm paying, eh? Its like someone invites you out to eat and you order the most expensive thing on the menu, its disrespectful.

In fact I'd go a step further. Change the whole alcohol and tobacco system, if you're on welfare, you're not allowed to buy them, period. Then card everyone to check, put a chip in licenses or whatever.

10 bucks says CRB doesn't feel this way about corporations receiving bailout money.

[Tisket]

I'll be back in eight pages.

[Parkbandit]

If you are going to at least pretend that the needy need help, then all you can do is offer the goddamn help and hope that they will treat it somewhat responsibly.

From my experience, this is rarely the case. The next time I'm at a HUD or THA property, I'll take pictures of the living room carpet that is used as an ashtray or the 68 fire extinguisher cases with the fire extinguishers missing from them. I'm actually pleasantly surprised when I go into an apartment that is not completely trashed.

And yes, I'm against corporate bailouts as well.

[Tisket]

Sorry, got sidetracked for a moment there trying to figure out why crb has such old statistics for obesity in his sig. So I clicked the source and it's a blog. A fucking blog.

So I went directly to the WHO website to check the statistics cited in the blog and they are garbage. Old and out-of-date. And mostly self-reported data. Anyway, Canadians have made great strides in catching up with the American BMI in recent years. Go go McDonalds!

Yes, I am easily distracted! Fuck you all.

/derail

[thefarmer]

From my experience, this is rarely the case. The next time I'm at a HUD or THA property, I'll take pictures of the living room carpet that is used as an ashtray or the 68 fire extinguisher cases with the fire extinguishers missing from them. I'm actually pleasantly surprised when I go into an apartment that is not completely trashed.

And yes, I'm against corporate bailouts as well.

Is your sole experience with welfare recipients limited to vacant properties you're looking to purchase?

Do you really think that's a large enough viewpoint to make an accurate judgment?

[Tsa`ah]

What is the protected class?

Anyone receiving a government benefit and not being subject to drug screening for eligibility.

[g++]

Sorry, got sidetracked for a moment there trying to figure out why crb has such old statistics for obesity in his sig. So I clicked the source and it's a blog. A fucking blog.

So I went directly to the WHO website to check the statistics cited in the blog and they are garbage. Old and out-of-date. And mostly self-reported data. Anyway, Canadians have made great strides in catching up with the American BMI in recent years. Go go McDonalds!

Yes, I am easily distracted! Fuck you all.

/derail


You know given the number of times main stream media has been busted copying incorrect information off blogs verbatim I would say PB is just skipping the middle man.

[CrystalTears]

You know given the number of times main stream media has been busted copying incorrect information off blogs verbatim I would say PB is just skipping the middle man.
Skipping the middle man by quoting a blog instead of a news sources?

Anyway, it was CRB, not PB.

[g++]

Skipping the middle man by quoting a blog instead of a news sources?

Anyway, it was CRB, not PB.


Oh my bad, was just joking anyway. Like when FOX ran that news story last year about how McCain was considering a fictitious running mate who only existed on a blog. Etc.

[crb]

10 bucks says CRB doesn't feel this way about corporations receiving bailout money.
I don't believe the banks should have been bailed out.

You, as is typical, confuse people who are for free markets as people who are for big government sponsored corporations

pro free markets != pro big corporations.

Of course, the government had to bail out the banks, because government had quite a heavy hand in this distress. This failure we have now is a value of government interventionism, not of free market capitalism. The free market has little to do with the most regulated industry in our country.

[crb]

Sorry, got sidetracked for a moment there trying to figure out why crb has such old statistics for obesity in his sig. So I clicked the source and it's a blog. A fucking blog.

So I went directly to the WHO website to check the statistics cited in the blog and they are garbage. Old and out-of-date. And mostly self-reported data. Anyway, Canadians have made great strides in catching up with the American BMI in recent years. Go go McDonalds!

Yes, I am easily distracted! Fuck you all.

/derail
Reason is a well respected political news magazine, not some blog.

And the WHO is the idiotic group who says that life expectancy is a good gauge of healthcare quality, which completely ignores things like lifestyle, culture, and genetics. Yes, Sally, an overweight american who shoots guns and drinks and drives fast in his pickup on the freeway while mowing through a 20 pack of whitecastle is more likely to die than a fish and rice eating asian. This does has nothing to do with healthcare.

[crb]

You're wrong. Happens, don't feel too badly about it.

Aside from the basic violation of rights this would entail, no one deserves to live in squalor or to be examined like some fucking biology dissection.

If you are going to at least pretend that the needy need help, then all you can do is offer the goddamn help and hope that they will treat it somewhat responsibly.
You're kinda a douche aren't you?

You don't think people abuse welfare, people have kids just for the monthly check, people spend welfare money on non-necessities, people exist on welfare with no desire or motivation to get off it?

I pay a shit ton of taxes, maybe that is what gives me a different opinion, but I don't want my tax dollars being used to buy cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, porn, cable tv, cell phones, designer clothes, big screen tvs, or any other such non-necessities for people.

If you think thats okay and a good thing. Here is what you can do. Go to the liquid store, buy liquor and cigarettes, and then walk around and give them out to the homeless. If buying cigarettes and alcohol for welfare recipients is good, buying them for the homeless must be saintly right? Right?

Let me know how that works out for you, and for the homeless. I'm sure the alcohol and cigarettes will really help them live healthier and get their lives back together.

I await the results.

[crb]

... this... by the way... is the whole point of the food stamp system. Food stamps buy food.

I suppose you think Tisket we should abolish that and just send cash to them instead? Rather than perhaps enforce it more?

[g++]

You're kinda a douche aren't you?

No you are. BAM ROASTED.




You don't think people abuse welfare, people have kids just for the monthly check, people spend welfare money on non-necessities, people exist on welfare with no desire or motivation to get off it??

I pay a shit ton of taxes, maybe that is what gives me a different opinion, but I don't want my tax dollars being used to buy cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, porn, cable tv, cell phones, designer clothes, big screen tvs, or any other such non-necessities for people.

Some people abusing welfare != all people abuse welfare. Thanks for being the only person on earth to pay taxes btw.




If you think thats okay and a good thing. Here is what you can do. Go to the liquid store, buy liquor and cigarettes, and then walk around and give them out to the homeless. If buying cigarettes and alcohol for welfare recipients is good, buying them for the homeless must be saintly right? Right?

Let me know how that works out for you, and for the homeless. I'm sure the alcohol and cigarettes will really help them live healthier and get their lives back together.

I await the results.

Nice story. Has nothing to do with what were talking about but it was interesting.

[crb]

Some people abusing welfare != all people abuse welfare. Thanks for being the only person on earth to pay taxes btw.

So, by your shitty logic, we should not enforce laws, or even have laws, because...

some people breaking the law != all people breaking the law?

No one is saying we should take welfare away from people who are responsible and don't use their subsidy to buy drugs and alcohol, okay, obviously, if you're responsible, you'd have nothing to worry about any such law. Likewise, if you never drink and drive, you don't have to worry about laws saying you'll lose your car if you do so and are caught, get it?

But, if you're using your handout to buy drugs and alcohol, then you're not responsible and you're abusing it aren't you? Then whats the problem?

And no one is saying starve a family of five because Mom smokes and drinks, atleast I am not. I'm saying maybe put the kids in foster care, OR tag Mom's license so she is no longer legally allowed to purchase cigarettes or alcohol. Then pass a law making it equivalent to buying for a minor if you buy for someone who has been restricted.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask people who are living off of society to do without damaging vices. Smoking and drinking are privileges, not rights.



Thanks for being the only person on earth to pay taxes btw.

Roughly 40% of the population in this country does not pay income taxes. Is it wrong for me to assume a few of that 40% would be here? I think its a reasonable assumption.

[g++]

So, by your shitty logic, we should not enforce laws, or even have laws, because...

some people breaking the law != all people breaking the law?

No one is saying we should take welfare away from people who are responsible and don't use their subsidy to buy drugs and alcohol, okay, obviously, if you're responsible, you'd have nothing to worry about any such law. Likewise, if you never drink and drive, you don't have to worry about laws saying you'll lose your car if you do so and are caught, get it?

But, if you're using your handout to buy drugs and alcohol, then you're not responsible and you're abusing it aren't you? Then whats the problem?

And no one is saying starve a family of five because Mom smokes and drinks, atleast I am not. I'm saying maybe put the kids in foster care, OR tag Mom's license so she is no longer legally allowed to purchase cigarettes or alcohol. Then pass a law making it equivalent to buying for a minor if you buy for someone who has been restricted.

I don't think its unreasonable to ask people who are living off of society to do without damaging vices. Smoking and drinking are privileges, not rights.

No, by my shitty logic we would wait until someone was actually proven to have broken the law before enforcing its punishments upon them. By your shitty logic we would all visit with parole officers once a week just in case we one day broke the law. May I remind you that your idea is too piss test people because they are poor. I know its hard for you to differentiate between poor and felon because your an elitist piece of shit but please try.




Roughly 40% of the population in this country does not pay income taxes. Is it wrong for me to assume a few of that 40% would be here? I think its a reasonable assumption.

There is a difference between having a less than zero tax liability and not paying taxes jack ass.

[Tisket]

Reason is a well respected political news magazine, not some blog.

And the WHO is the idiotic group who says that life expectancy is a good gauge of healthcare quality, which completely ignores things like lifestyle, culture, and genetics.

That "idiotic group" is where the blog got it's statistics. You know, the blog that you used as an argument in your sig...

I just went directly to the source that you yourself indirectly used.


... this... by the way... is the whole point of the food stamp system. Food stamps buy food.

I suppose you think Tisket we should abolish that and just send cash to them instead? Rather than perhaps enforce it more?

I believe in the value of work but also the obligation of every human being to provide a certain basic level of survival to every other if they are able. That's about as simply as I can explain it to you, and yet, I'm still sure you won't understand. You can't escape the childish narcissism that drives you through life. You're halfway through life and still have no idea what the point of it is.

You keep talking about wasting tax dollars. I would hazard that was what the underwriting of your student loans was. May as well have just lit $100's on fire there, considering the relative societal benefit derived.

Anyway, I have a simple solution for the whole issue that I'm sure will meet with CRB's approval. We just round up anyone who needs a hand up. Toss them all in prison. Free food, free housing, free education, free sex. Perhaps we should just throw all of our poor people in prison. Maybe we should even throw the kids in too so they don't have to grow up to repeat the cycle.

I'm sure I can count on all your votes when I run for world dictator. Oh wait, that's ok, its a dictatorship. Fuck you, I don't need your vote.

[Mabus]

I'm sure I can count on all your votes when I run for world dictator. Oh wait, that's ok, its a dictatorship. Fuck you, I don't need your vote.
Tisket Über Alles!
:blndwhip:

[Clove]

Tisket Über Alles!
:blndwhip:Tisket above all (others)!

[Clove]

No one is saying we should take welfare away from people who are responsible and don't use their subsidy to buy drugs and alcohol, okay, obviously, if you're responsible, you'd have nothing to worry about any such law. Likewise, if you never drink and drive, you don't have to worry about laws saying you'll lose your car if you do so and are caught, get it?Correct. I also shouldn't have to worry about taking a breathalyzer test before entering my vehicle when leaving an alcohol-serving establishment, either. I don't drink and drive, I would pass every time; but that's not really the point, is it?

[Rocktar]

...Aside from the basic violation of rights this would entail, no one deserves to live in squalor or to be examined like some fucking biology dissection.

If you are going to at least pretend that the needy need help, then all you can do is offer the goddamn help and hope that they will treat it somewhat responsibly.

Couple of things:

What rights are supposedly going to be violated? The right to commit a crime and then commit a second crime by covering the first one up, I didn’t see that one in the Bill of Rights, did you?

Why don't people deserve to live in squalor? Before state run welfare, people lived in shelters/church homes, were homeless or took whatever job they could find and learned to make do. There was none of this “I can’t take a job at Walmart and learn to live within my means, I would loose cable TV. I am too good to do that job.” Nope, people were more like me; they took the job at Walmart, busted their ass and learned to live within their means.

Why don’t they deserve to be examined like a biology dissection?

Why do the “needy” “need” help?

Why can’t you offer help with stipulations? We sell property with stipulations on how you use it, many items with disclaimers on how to not use it and waivers of liability for what is done with it, why not limitations on aid? We sure as hell do that for all kinds of OTHER aid.


Now, on another note, last year, I worked with a guy; he has a pack of unruly, destructive brats, and a whiney bitch wife. He smokes, his wife didn’t work for a long time and was on disability because she fell and hurt her back, supposedly, and they tried to scam Workman’s Comp to pay for that. He constantly bitched about not having money for this and that. He got food stamps because he was poor and had a pack of kids, and bitched when they changed social workers and the new one caught that he had been putting down his net income and not his gross income. He also bitched about how he was screwed by workman’s comp and so on, when there was no way she injured her back at work and if she did, she didn’t report it and so on. Now, this lovely example of welfare collections in America got his taxes done, paid to have them done, got a refund (because he has that pack of monsters) and got the Earned Income Tax Credit (pack of monsters, remember) to the tune of like $6000 bucks total. I owe money from a couple years ago when my company fucked up my withholdings and I am still paying it off.

So, what does this lovely example of the poor, victimized working stiff do with the money? Well, right after his in-laws tell him that he no longer has to make payments on his 2 yr old car (mine was 18) he decides to go to a sale at Sam’s Club and buy a 46” plasma flat screen TV. The local Sam’s Club was out, so he drove over 50 miles to the next one to get it because a 42” just wasn’t good enough.

I just don’t have any sympathy for the rights of a class of people that, in many cases, are 4th, 5th and now 6th generation welfare recipients who have AC, cable TV, and drive nicer cars than me while smoking dope and drinking ripple. All because they can make a uterus work or shack up with a woman that can. Lyndon Johnson’s “Great Society” experiment in socialist bullshit has failed and failed miserably. No country in the world has made it work for any length of time without using force to enforce it and enslaving the working class at the end of a gun. Why do you think that Liberals want to enact more firearm control laws? You cannot continue to support a large and growing class of people in a society that consumes and produces nothing. In the body, we call such things cancer or parasites and left unchecked, the body dies.

[CrystalTears]

What rights are supposedly going to be violated? The right to commit a crime and then commit a second crime by covering the first one up, I didn’t see that one in the Bill of Rights, did you?What crime are you fucking talking about?

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your stupid rant because it's... well... stupid.

[Jorddyn]

I owe money from a couple years ago when my company fucked up my withholdings and I am still paying it off.


Come back and rant when you've actually paid your taxes.

[Clove]

Couple of things:

What rights are supposedly going to be violated? The right to commit a crime and then commit a second crime by covering the first one up, I didn’t see that one in the Bill of Rights, did you?Excuse me but we are protected from unreasonable search and seizure. Simply accepting public aid by itself isn't an indication that you've commited a crime and ought to prove that you aren't.

While we're at why not have GPS units that report their data to law enforcement installed in the vehicles of those receiving unemployment, food stamps or welfare so we can make sure they aren't speeding. Why not have breathalyzers installed in their cars so that we can make sure they aren't drinking and driving?

[Rocktar]

Come back and rant when you've actually paid your taxes.

Am paying dumb ass. Gods, grow the fuck up. I pay them every paycheck.

[Rocktar]

<snippage>

While we're at why not have GPS units that report their data to law enforcement installed in the vehicles of those receiving unemployment, food stamps or welfare so we can make sure they aren't speeding. Why not have breathalyzers installed in their cars so that we can make sure they aren't drinking and driving?

Actually, all of these have been proposed at one time or another by Liberal Democrats (Socialists). Me, I don't think it is too much to ask for you to prove that you are not spending my hard earned tax money, that I am handing over to you to support your kids with, to toke a bowl. Of course, as I said elsewhere, legalize pot, tax the living shit out of it and make it a huge assed crime (AND enforce it harshly) to drive while under the influence. OH, and I think that the harsh enforcement should extend to drunk driving too.

You drive under the influence, even once and you should pay some seriously harsh penalty and it should be a simple case of "Here is the video of them getting out of the car, here is them failing the field test, the lab test put them at xx." Guilty as charged.

[Stanley Burrell]

Hey, my name is crb, I'd like to talk about not bragging about my wealth or personal financial awesomeness and how great and knowledgeable I am. I know I'm right, and you should too, because of my gigantic Cuban links platinum chain with blue diamonds on it that spell out the words, "This is my gigantic Cuban-linked platinum chain with blue diamonds on it."

Upon closer inspection, you see tiny little emeralds, topazes and other gay shit that spell out the words "I'm quiting GemStone."


And the WTO is the idiotic group...

Woah.

[Tisket]

Dear Rocktar:

Why is this such a problem for slack jawed yokels like yourself?

Yes, it's about giving the poor handouts, so they can eat, have a place to live, medical care and education. Yes, correct, handouts. Just like YOU take the handouts of paved roads, and sewer systems, and public restrooms, and police and fire services, infrastructure of all kinds, food inspectors, clean water, etc. All without having to piss in a cup.

And FYI: Your tax dollar isn't going to be reduced or go back in your pocket by further legislating welfare. It would simply be spent in new ways. And as was pointed out on the first page of this thread, drug testing don't come cheap.

Anyway, the world is not composed of two groups of people, one being evil neer-do-wells and one being good hard working honest people. Black and white solutions seldom work.

Every human being on the planet deserves a basic level of support, including food, shelter, health care, education, infrastructure, electricity, quiet enjoyment, etc. REGARDLESS of their income level, social status, "contribution" to the larger society or what have you. You know, the same level of services we provide to prisoners.

[Jorddyn]

Am paying dumb ass. Gods, grow the fuck up. I pay them every paycheck.

Except for the ones that you didn't pay and now owe.

ETA: One of my biggest pet peeves is people who don't pay their taxes (or "forget" to claim income, or get paid under the table, or flat out lie about deductions) and still whine about how high tax rates are. Pay them. Then complain.

EATA: Remember Joe the plumber?

[Parkbandit]

Is your sole experience with welfare recipients limited to vacant properties you're looking to purchase?

Do you really think that's a large enough viewpoint to make an accurate judgment?


Is that the best assumption you could come up with? That I've viewed 2-3 HUD houses and drew my conclusions from that?

Awesomely ignorant. Thanks for the laugh though.

[thefarmer]

Is that the best assumption you could come up with? That I've viewed 2-3 HUD houses and drew my conclusions from that?

Awesomely ignorant. Thanks for the laugh though.

Is that the best assumption you could come up with? That I assumed you meant 2-3 HUD houses and drew your conclusions from that?

Awesomely ignorant. Thanks for the laugh though.

Just how many HUD houses, since it's clearly not 2-3, have you looked at in your vast experience?

[Clove]

Actually, all of these have been proposed at one time or another by Liberal Democrats (Socialists). Me, I don't think...Agreed.

[Parkbandit]

Is that the best assumption you could come up with? That I assumed you meant 2-3 HUD houses and drew your conclusions from that?

Awesomely ignorant. Thanks for the laugh though.

Just how many HUD houses, since it's clearly not 2-3, have you looked at in your vast experience?

I've visited over 2,300 individual HUD/THA/Government Assistance dwellings in 2008 alone. Over 300 so far in 2009.

How many again have you visited to form an opinion? Yea.. that's what I thought.

Like I said, nice assumption that proved incorrect. If you don't feel foolish at this point, there's very little hope for you.

[Parkbandit]

Except for the ones that you didn't pay and now owe.

ETA: One of my biggest pet peeves is people who don't pay their taxes (or "forget" to claim income, or get paid under the table, or flat out lie about deductions) and still whine about how high tax rates are. Pay them. Then complain.

EATA: Remember Joe the plumber?

Wait.. what? So you can't complain about taxes until you pay for them?

So if I pay my 2008 taxes on 4/18/09.. but have not paid all of my burden for 2009 until 4/15/10.. when exactly can I complain about taxes?

And what's Joe the Plumber have to do with this? Don't you mean Charlie Rangle? Maybe you meant Tim Geithner? Or Nancy Killefer or Tom Daschle? Certainly these tax cheats are a far more current example than Joe the Plumber.

[diethx]

So if I pay my 2008 taxes on 4/18/09.. but have not paid all of my burden for 2009 until 4/15/10.. when exactly can I complain about taxes?

Oh come the fuck on, that's a bit of a leap from what she said.

[Parkbandit]

Oh come the fuck on, that's a bit of a leap from what she said.

Being an accountant, I would hope she realized I was being sarcastic. I didn't expect someone like you to get it.

[diethx]

Being an accountant, I would hope she realized I was being sarcastic. I didn't expect someone like you to get it.

That wasn't sarcasm, sarcasm is witty. You simply compared apples and assholes.

[thefarmer]

I've visited over 2,300 individual HUD/THA/Government Assistance dwellings in 2008 alone. Over 300 so far in 2009.

How many again have you visited to form an opinion? Yea.. that's what I thought.

Like I said, nice assumption that proved incorrect. If you don't feel foolish at this point, there's very little hope for you.

The problem here is you're thinking:

A) I assumed you had visited 2-3
B) To form an opinion it is required to visit vacant homes

Neither of which is correct.

So to sum it all up:

A)You have visited numerous vacant homes who's previous occupants must have been on welfare
B)By seeing these homes, you can clearly judge what kind of people all/a majority of welfare recipients are
C)Because you assume I've never seen a HUD/THA/Government Assistance dwelling, I should favor your vast experience over my own.


Your experience (visiting thousands of properties to purchase) encompasses a small segment of welfare recipients and by no means should indicate any sort of typical behavior for this group. The fact you don't see this is foolish, but there's little hope that you'll ever open your eyes to this fact.

[Parkbandit]

The problem here is you're thinking:

Here is the problem.. you aren't thinking.


A) I assumed you had visited 2-3
B) To form an opinion it is required to visit vacant homes

Neither of which is correct.


You ASSumed that I had very little experience at government assisted housing.. otherwise you wouldn't have posted. You were proven incorrect.



So to sum it all up:

A)You have visited numerous vacant homes who's previous occupants must have been on welfare

True. I've visited a very large number of properties in the Tampabay area to form an opinion based upon a very large sample size. Granted, I cannot speak for the entire country, but I can say that the majority of people in Tampa HUD properties do not treat this government assistance responsibly.



B)By seeing these homes, you can clearly judge what kind of people all/a majority of welfare recipients are

False. See above.



C)Because you assume I've never seen a HUD/THA/Government Assistance dwelling, I should favor your vast experience over my own.


Feel free to post your experience with HUD/THA/Government Assistance housing. Tell me.. how many properties did you visit in 2008?


Your experience (visiting thousands of properties to purchase) encompasses a small segment of welfare recipients and by no means should indicate any sort of typical behavior for this group. The fact you don't see this is foolish, but there's little hope that you'll ever open your eyes to this fact.

Assumption... which again, is incorrect. Where did I say I was purchasing anything? My business brings me to these properties.. not my personal investments.

Again.. post your extensive experience with any sort of government assisted housing and then we can compare perceptions. Maybe go online and google up some information that shows that people who get a handout take care of it responsibly. Come to this discussion with something other than your feelings about it... or what you want to believe.

[Parkbandit]

That wasn't sarcasm, sarcasm is witty. You simply compared apples and assholes.

I never once compared you to an apple... so fuck off.

[diethx]

I never once compared you to an apple... so fuck off.

Your mom?!?!?!

[thefarmer]

You ASSumed that I had very little experience at government assisted housing.. otherwise you wouldn't have posted. You were proven incorrect.

I assumed no such thing, therefor there was nothing to prove. I know old people have memory problems, so I'll repost it.


Is your sole experience with welfare recipients limited to vacant properties you're looking to purchase?

Do you really think that's a large enough viewpoint to make an accurate judgment?




True. I've visited a very large number of properties in the Tampabay area to form an opinion based upon a very large sample size. Granted, I cannot speak for the entire country, but I can say that the majority of people in Tampa HUD properties do not treat this government assistance responsibly.

Thanks for clarifying your sweeping original statement of "From my experience, this is rarely the case. "

It took you awhile, but you answered my original question. Thanks.

[Parkbandit]

Your mom?!?!?!

Son of a....

You win. :(

[Parkbandit]

I assumed no such thing, therefor there was nothing to prove. I know old people have memory problems, so I'll repost it.







Thanks for clarifying your sweeping original statement of "From my experience, this is rarely the case. "

It took you awhile, but you answered my original question. Thanks.

So.. I'll assume you have zero experience with government assisted housing..

Awesome. Thank you for "feeling" I was wrong... but really having zero idea.

[Rocktar]

Dear Rocktar:

Why is this such a problem for slack jawed yokels like yourself?

Yes, it's about giving the poor handouts, so they can eat, have a place to live, medical care and education. Yes, correct, handouts. Just like YOU take the handouts of paved roads, and sewer systems, and public restrooms, and police and fire services, infrastructure of all kinds, food inspectors, clean water, etc. All without having to piss in a cup.

And FYI: Your tax dollar isn't going to be reduced or go back in your pocket by further legislating welfare. It would simply be spent in new ways. And as was pointed out on the first page of this thread, drug testing don't come cheap.

Anyway, the world is not composed of two groups of people, one being evil neer-do-wells and one being good hard working honest people. Black and white solutions seldom work.

Every human being on the planet deserves a basic level of support, including food, shelter, health care, education, infrastructure, electricity, quiet enjoyment, etc. REGARDLESS of their income level, social status, "contribution" to the larger society or what have you. You know, the same level of services we provide to prisoners.

Actually, I don't get HANDOUTS of roads and such, I PAY for them. They are NOT paying for them at all. That is the point. And no, no one deserves anything just because, that mentality is exactly why we have a welfare class in the first place. Simply put, the idea that everyone deserves whatever equally IS Socialism, plain and simple. Socialism does not work and in not only destructive of countries and societies, it is destructive of the human spirit. Don't believe me, then go look at the generations of welfare families that feel hopeless because they and no one they know has ever tried to do anything better.

Capitolism and personal responsability are the greatest builders of human spirit there is. Nothing builds self esteem like going out, earning your own way and living by your own had. "I support myself, this is my place, I pay the bills and I stand on my own" is one of the most powerful things anyone can ever realize.

[CrystalTears]

Capitolism and personal responsability are the greatest builders of human spirit there is. Nothing builds self esteem like going out, earning your own way and living by your own had. "I support myself, this is my place, I pay the bills and I stand on my own" is one of the most powerful things anyone can ever realize.Granted, but some people need that monetary push to get them going. You need to have money to make money.

[Jorddyn]

Wait.. what? So you can't complain about taxes until you pay for them?

So if I pay my 2008 taxes on 4/18/09.. but have not paid all of my burden for 2009 until 4/15/10.. when exactly can I complain about taxes?

When you're paying them timely. Which you are.


And what's Joe the Plumber have to do with this? Don't you mean Charlie Rangle? Maybe you meant Tim Geithner? Or Nancy Killefer or Tom Daschle? Certainly these tax cheats are a far more current example than Joe the Plumber.

Joe the plumber got up and complained about taxes for a tax bracket he isn't even in. He was later found to have back taxes. I meant Joe the Plumber.

[Rocktar]

Except for the ones that you didn't pay and now owe.

ETA: One of my biggest pet peeves is people who don't pay their taxes (or "forget" to claim income, or get paid under the table, or flat out lie about deductions) and still whine about how high tax rates are. Pay them. Then complain.

EATA: Remember Joe the plumber?

Ok dumb cunt, here it is. I do pay my taxes, am paying and will continue to pay them as I can. My company underwitheld something on the order of 5 grand in taxes one year. You got 5 grand you can just plunk down all at once? If you do, great, then fuck off. If like the most of the rest of us, you don't, well, you do what I did, make an arrangement for a payment plan. Then you pay. Now, since I don't earn as much as I used too, thanks to them shipping my job to India and me having to take a much lesser paying job to make ends meet. Now, had I kept the phone company job for another year, I would have already paid this off. Unfortunatly, with reduced income, does not come reduced expenses and so I had to renegotiate my payment plan and it will take a lot longer.

Add to all this that I am a white male and don't have a bajillion squalling brats to claim as deductions and my yearly tax burden and expenses (you know, rent, food, student loans) is such that I can't put as much aside each year, so my paltry couple hundred bucks refund goes toward my owed back taxes.

Now you condescending, self fulfulfilled, pompous little slit, shut the fuck up and go find something productive to do. Oh wait, you are quite Liberal so you think that someone else should work for you and you deserve to be supported because you are smart or cute or simply think that you are better than the rest of us. I pay my taxes and so I will complain to my hearts' fucking content. Don't like it, then don't read my posts. Regardless, shove the public tit in your mouth so you can suckle and shut up.

[ElanthianSiren]

Whoa, someone chewed too much testosterone this morning.

So you're pissing and moaning that your job got shipped overseas, but then you're saying how great capitalism is? There's irony in that.

Calling someone lots and lots and lots of naughty awe-inspiring names doesn't a point make.

[Tsa`ah]

Whoa, someone chewed too much testosterone this morning.

So you're pissing and moaning that your job got shipped overseas, but then you're saying how great capitalism is? There's irony in that.

Calling someone lots and lots and lots of naughty awe-inspiring names doesn't a point make.

Reading Jordynn's subsequent attack on his ignorant logic will be worth the read though.

[Jorddyn]

Ok dumb cunt, here it is. I do pay my taxes, am paying and will continue to pay them as I can. My company underwitheld something on the order of 5 grand in taxes one year.

Ok, there are a few possibilities for how this played out.
1. You got hired on new, screwed up your w-4, and never paid attention to your paystub showing next to $0 federal tax being withheld.
2. You got hired on new, HR screwed up entering your w-4, and you never paid attention to your paystub showing next to $0 federal tax being withheld.
3. You were not hired on new, but HR suddenly hosed up your withholding, which left you with a sudden $100 increase in your paycheck, which you promptly spent without thought to where it came from.

In any of those situations, you are the idiot for not noticing. Read your paycheck.


You got 5 grand you can just plunk down all at once? If you do, great, then fuck off. If like the most of the rest of us, you don't, well, you do what I did, make an arrangement for a payment plan. Then you pay.

Yes, I do. As do many people on this board. Don't blame us for your inability to pay attention to your paycheck.


Now, since I don't earn as much as I used too, thanks to them shipping my job to India and me having to take a much lesser paying job to make ends meet. Now, had I kept the phone company job for another year, I would have already paid this off. Unfortunatly, with reduced income, does not come reduced expenses and so I had to renegotiate my payment plan and it will take a lot longer.

You should have been saving that extra $100/week that you were getting in your checks. And you should work on reducing your expenses to fall in line with your newly decreased income.


Add to all this that I am a white male
There is no "race" or "gender" checkbox that I'm aware of on the 1040.


and don't have a bajillion squalling brats to claim as deductions and my yearly tax burden and expenses (you know, rent, food, student loans) is such that I can't put as much aside each year, so my paltry couple hundred bucks refund goes toward my owed back taxes.

You really ought to work on living within your paltry means. Or work on improving yourself so your means aren't quite as paltry.


Now you condescending, self fulfulfilled, pompous little slit, shut the fuck up and go find something productive to do. Oh wait, you are quite Liberal so you think that someone else should work for you and you deserve to be supported because you are smart or cute or simply think that you are better than the rest of us. I pay my taxes and so I will complain to my hearts' fucking content. Don't like it, then don't read my posts. Regardless, shove the public tit in your mouth so you can suckle and shut up.

I work. Hard. I make good money. I pay my taxes. I have been fortunate in my life to never be in a situation where I had to take government aid. Hell, I couldn't even get student loans even though I paid my own way through college. And just for bonus points, I can get through an entire post without swearing or usings memes that should have long ago died.

Oh, and I am smart. Cute is debatable. And I don't think I'm better than the rest of you. Just you in particular.

[Tsa`ah]

Ouch

[CrystalTears]

I :heart: Jorddyn.

[ElanthianSiren]

Reading Jordynn's subsequent attack on his ignorant logic will be worth the read though.

Well called, sir.

I'd never insinuate Jorddyn's a hippie liberal though. :nono: I laughed a little inside at that one.

[Jorddyn]

I'd never insinuate Jorddyn's a hippie liberal though. :nono: I laughed a little inside at that one.

Liberal yes, hippie no. It's hard enough being who I am in a world of accountants :)

[Tisket]

Actually, I don't get HANDOUTS of roads and such, I PAY for them. They are NOT paying for them at all. That is the point. And no, no one deserves anything just because, that mentality is exactly why we have a welfare class in the first place. Simply put, the idea that everyone deserves whatever equally IS Socialism, plain and simple. Socialism does not work and in not only destructive of countries and societies, it is destructive of the human spirit. Don't believe me, then go look at the generations of welfare families that feel hopeless because they and no one they know has ever tried to do anything better.

Capitolism and personal responsability are the greatest builders of human spirit there is. Nothing builds self esteem like going out, earning your own way and living by your own had. "I support myself, this is my place, I pay the bills and I stand on my own" is one of the most powerful things anyone can ever realize.

Now I am a socialist because I don't believe we should allow other human beings to starve or because I don't jump for joy at the prospect of violating basic rights. Good to know.

Anyway, it's amazing to me how often some people believe that name calling passes for logic.

Well I'm not calling you names. I'm telling you that you're worthless. Really. Your opinion is meaningless, you bring nothing to the discussion. In point of fact, you don't even have an opinion, just a regurgitation of things you've read and not understood.

This is a simple issue only to simple people incapable of seeing other points of view. GTFO.

P.S. Why would anyone ignore your posts when they can instead ridicule them and laugh and laugh?

[Rocktar]

Ok, there are a few possibilities for how this played out.
1. You got hired on new, screwed up your w-4, and never paid attention to your paystub showing next to $0 federal tax being withheld.
2. You got hired on new, HR screwed up entering your w-4, and you never paid attention to your paystub showing next to $0 federal tax being withheld.
3. You were not hired on new, but HR suddenly hosed up your withholding, which left you with a sudden $100 increase in your paycheck, which you promptly spent without thought to where it came from.

In any of those situations, you are the idiot for not noticing. Read your paycheck.

Had you bothered to read English from before, you would know that the answer is #4 none of the above. My company was taken over and in the transfer of HR, they messed up my withholdings. Now, if your paycheck is direct deposited and you don't even get a paper pay stub, then it can be quite some time before you find out something is up, especially if your idiot significant other goes behind your back to spend the money without telling you. As soon as it was discovered, I took the appropriate measures to deal with it.



Yes, I do. As do many people on this board. Don't blame us for your inability to pay attention to your paycheck.

At no point did I blame you or anyone else for anything other than the stupidity of your words because you have made many assumptions and assertions in a condescending and demeaning manner.


You should have been saving that extra $100/week that you were getting in your checks. And you should work on reducing your expenses to fall in line with your newly decreased income.

See above description of events. And as to my expenses, I have already done that, which is why the repayment plan had to be extended. Again, you demonstrate your arrogance with your condescending, and demeaning tone. This is particularly obvious since you are completely ignorant of the situation despite it being well described earlier.



There is no "race" or "gender" checkbox that I'm aware of on the 1040.

There is if you wish to apply for government aid in the form of welfare, food stamps and so on. None of which I have applied for, need or have ever used. Please do try and keep up, if this is going too fast, let me know and I can use smaller words and break it down for you into smaller steps.




You really ought to work on living within your paltry means. Or work on improving yourself so your means aren't quite as paltry.

Already done and already in process, again, the arrogant assumption based on your complete lack of actually reading previous posts.



I work. Hard. I make good money. I pay my taxes. I have been fortunate in my life to never be in a situation where I had to take government aid. Hell, I couldn't even get student loans even though I paid my own way through college. And just for bonus points, I can get through an entire post without swearing or usings memes that should have long ago died.

Hope you have the day off, otherwise, if you live in the US, you are likely posting form work and thus committing theft of network resources and company time, not the habits of a "hard working" person. More likely the habits of a person that thinks they work hard and then whines and complains about it to others. And for bonus points, I can get through a load of posts with reasoned and supported arguments. You can simply avoid profanity and have yet to provide a single reasoned argument in any form over the past few months. The extent of your reasoning is to dismiss the concept or position because you don't agree with it, attack the poster on a personal level because you are completely helpless to rationally discuss it or occasionally find a single point that you can contest and then declare the entire meaning of the post invalid. These are all logical fallacies and the tools of distraction used by those with poor reasoning and debate skills.


Oh, and I am smart. Cute is debatable. And I don't think I'm better than the rest of you. Just you in particular.

You have failed to provide a single, well reasoned and supported argument in any topic that I have read and you have posted on in a political thread in the past few months. Therefore, I must conclude that your claim to intelligence is spurious at best. Despite your protestations to the contrary, your posting style to anyone you disagree with, anyone that you dislike previously or to new posters does indeed scream for attention with condescension, derision and arrogance. Your communication style is one of distraction and arrogant condescension and those are qualities of persons with serious superiority attitudes. You do indeed, plainly, come across with a superior attitude and it is directed at far more people than I.

Now, I work nights so I have to sleep in the day and it is my bed time. Unlike you, I absolutely DO work hard and am in the process of improving my situation so I bid you good day, implore you to grow up, get laid and direct your anger elsewhere. In 15+ years, when you have genuinely put in the hours and labor I have, seen the economy and jobs and such move as I have and been laid off as many times as I have, then perhaps you will get it. Until then, I must simply assume you are just too young to understand and comment on adult matters. By the way, if you were caught misusing company resources like I suspect you are in the employ of some of the people I have worked for, you would be in the unemployment line by 5pm.

[Rocktar]

So you're pissing and moaning that your job got shipped overseas, but then you're saying how great capitalism is? There's irony in that.

Do you read English? I was angry over Jorddyn's accusations and assumptions. I got past being angry about my job being shipped to India a long time ago. Sheesh, even my 10 yr old neice would have understood that.

[Keller]

(student loans).

Are you telling me you're college educated?

Seriously?

I do not believe it. I'd need to see some sort of proof.

Edited to add: I find, that, "suprizing",.

[CrystalTears]

Had you bothered to read English from before, you would know that the answer is #4 none of the above. My company was taken over and in the transfer of HR, they messed up my withholdings. Now, if your paycheck is direct deposited and you don't even get a paper pay stub, then it can be quite some time before you find out something is up, especially if your idiot significant other goes behind your back to spend the money without telling you. As soon as it was discovered, I took the appropriate measures to deal with it.That's convenient. Are you honestly telling us that you had NO idea what was being deposited in your own account? No paper stubs, no login to the website to see your info online? Seriously? That's just retarded and completely irresponsible.

[Tsa`ah]

Had you bothered to read English from before, you would know that the answer is #4 none of the above. My company was taken over and in the transfer of HR, they messed up my withholdings. Now, if your paycheck is direct deposited and you don't even get a paper pay stub, then it can be quite some time before you find out something is up, especially if your idiot significant other goes behind your back to spend the money without telling you. As soon as it was discovered, I took the appropriate measures to deal with it.

If said company wasn't giving you a pay stub (illegal) and you didn't report it, nor request them ... it's still on you and you're still an idiot for allowing it to happen.

That you trusted any employer to just not make a mistake ... I just don't have words for it.


At no point did I blame you or anyone else for anything other than the stupidity of your words because you have made many assumptions and assertions in a condescending and demeaning manner.

Unless you were making a sub-livable wage, there's really only one person at fault for mismanaging their finances ... and that's you. You asked if she had 5 grand laying around in a way that suggested no one was more responsible with their money than you were. Guess what, most working people seem to be more responsible with their finances than you are.

You willingly chose to ignore your earnings vs spending ... and the details of your earnings and spending. Now you're on the hook for 5k in back taxes ... sorry, but unless you were flipping burgers or standing on an unskilled assembly line ... well it sounds as if you have no clue how to manage your money. Judging by your posts you're also attempting to blame everything and everyone under the sun for your problem.


There is if you wish to apply for government aid in the form of welfare, food stamps and so on. None of which I have applied for, need or have ever used. Please do try and keep up, if this is going too fast, let me know and I can use smaller words and break it down for you into smaller steps.

She mentioned a tax form, not an aid application. None the less, questions on those forms are for census purposes ... not as a qualifier or disqualifier, that is based on income.


Hope you have the day off, otherwise, if you live in the US, you are likely posting form work and thus committing theft of network resources and company time, not the habits of a "hard working" person. More likely the habits of a person that thinks they work hard and then whines and complains about it to others. And for bonus points, I can get through a load of posts with reasoned and supported arguments. You can simply avoid profanity and have yet to provide a single reasoned argument in any form over the past few months. The extent of your reasoning is to dismiss the concept or position because you don't agree with it, attack the poster on a personal level because you are completely helpless to rationally discuss it or occasionally find a single point that you can contest and then declare the entire meaning of the post invalid. These are all logical fallacies and the tools of distraction used by those with poor reasoning and debate skills.

Not the "you're posting from work" followed by a string of bullshit defense again. If that's all you have ... walk away now.

People post from work all the time .... it's a matter of policy not legality.


blah blah blah ... I overused a thesaurus ... blah blah blah ... You do indeed, plainly, come across with a superior attitude and it is directed at far more people than I.

You're confusing Jordynn with me.


Now, I work nights so I have to sleep in the day and it is my bed time. Unlike you, I absolutely DO work hard and am in the process of improving my situation so I bid you good day, implore you to grow up, get laid and direct your anger elsewhere. In 15+ years, when you have genuinely put in the hours and labor I have, seen the economy and jobs and such move as I have and been laid off as many times as I have, then perhaps you will get it. Until then, I must simply assume you are just too young to understand and comment on adult matters. By the way, if you were caught misusing company resources like I suspect you are in the employ of some of the people I have worked for, you would be in the unemployment line by 5pm.

I left the above intact because it made me giggle ... yes ... giggle.

[CrystalTears]

You're confusing Jordynn with me.
Fuck you for making me laugh AND agree with you.

[Tsa`ah]

Never let it be said I don't have a sense of humor.

[Rocktar]

That's convenient. Are you honestly telling us that you had NO idea what was being deposited in your own account? No paper stubs, no login to the website to see your info online? Seriously? That's just retarded and completely irresponsible.

Yes, there is a log in, no, at the time, I didn't check up on it, since my pay scale didn't change and my available spending money didn't change, I had no real reason to investigate it. Think what you want, a lot of people are far worse with their money. I learned, took control and that is why I am not in jail for tax evasion and why I have a repayment plan and not a wage garnishment. The simple fact is, society doesn't teach people to look after things like that in school unless you take accounting. Add in a wife, love for your wife and misplaced trust in her not fucking things up and well, it is a bad mix. The things you do when you love someone. You live, you learn and unlike many, I have not filed for bankruptcy.

And yes Virgina and all the other doubters, I do have a college education, a fine one at that, however, like so many, I chose to study what I enjoyed and not what pays well. No, I am not an artist or sculpter or agricultural specialist in sub-Saharan grass growing or something.

If I knew then, what I know now, I would have done a lot of things differently, gotten a different degree, not married the woman I did, not made some of the moves about the country I have and so on. Get through 20+ years after graduating high school and see if you don't have some things in your life that you would do differently. Now, no where in this whole mess have I ever blamed anyone other than my wife, who had a hand in causing this mess. Never have I blamed society or tried to dodge my problems. So, do take the time to move on from that tired and baseless accusation.

[Rocktar]

Are you telling me you're college educated?

Seriously?

I do not believe it. I'd need to see some sort of proof.

Edited to add: I find, that, "suprizing",.

I would provide you proof, but I don't tend to give out my real name online to anyone. Sorry, belive what you want. What I find most suprizing out of most of you people is that you honestly belive that Liberalism/Socialism is a good idea after all the countries that have tried and and the constant and consistant failures as the end result. Someone once defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, this is why I think Liberals/Socialists are insane.

[Ignot]

Sorry, belive what you want. What I find most suprizing

In before Keller!

[Tsa`ah]

I would provide you proof, but I don't tend to give out my real name online to anyone. Sorry, belive what you want. What I find most suprizing out of most of you people is that you honestly belive that Liberalism/Socialism is a good idea after all the countries that have tried and and the constant and consistant failures as the end result. Someone once defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, this is why I think Liberals/Socialists are insane.

Damn Ig for beating everyone to it ... but still. If you think socialism is a liberal concept, oye.

I think too many people toss around tags based on what they hear on certain news networks. As an aside, you should probably do a bit of reading before doing it again.


Yes, there is a log in, no, at the time, I didn't check up on it, since my pay scale didn't change and my available spending money didn't change, I had no real reason to investigate it. Think what you want, a lot of people are far worse with their money. I learned, took control and that is why I am not in jail for tax evasion and why I have a repayment plan and not a wage garnishment. The simple fact is, society doesn't teach people to look after things like that in school unless you take accounting. Add in a wife, love for your wife and misplaced trust in her not fucking things up and well, it is a bad mix. The things you do when you love someone. You live, you learn and unlike many, I have not filed for bankruptcy.

There is no excuse for not knowing your income or the manner in which your taxes are being handled. There's also no excuse for completely trusting any employer with your finances ... paycheck being correct with the proper deductions. I don't care if your father signs your paychecks ... no excuse what so ever.

[CrystalTears]

There is no excuse for not knowing your income or the manner in which your taxes are being handled. There's also no excuse for completely trusting any employer with your finances ... paycheck being correct with the proper deductions. I don't care if your father signs your paychecks ... no excuse what so ever.:yeahthat:

[Rocktar]

Again, I didn't make an excuse, simply an explaination of what happened. I do hope your rosey life isn't inturrupted with anything that ever happens out of the ordinary or unexpected.


And no, Socialism isn't a Liberal concept, modern Liberalism is a cover for Socialist ideals, plans and concepts. Liberalism of today is nothing like what would have been considered "Liberal" 50 years ago. Back then, they called it Socialism, plain and simple. Of course, what the Republican party has as it's platform today is very similar to the Democrat party platform of the 1940s and 50s. The Republican party platform of back then is simply considered too radically right wing to even be considered even by the radical religious right. Politics and the world have changed, however, the idea of central control of industry, equality of outcome and class warfare are still Socialist ideals.

[Keller]

In before Keller!

You can't buy entertainment like this.

Bravo.

[Jorddyn]

As soon as it was discovered, I took the appropriate measures to deal with it.

Well, considering you claimed it was $5000, and by your own admission you don't make very much, I'm going to say it went on for the better part of a year. That's insane, and doesn't do much to make your case that you weren't to blame.



There is if you wish to apply for government aid in the form of welfare, food stamps and so on.


Huh. Our state's food assistance webpage specifically states:




In accordance with federal law and U.S. Department of Agriculture policy, this institution is prohibited from discriminating on the basis of race, color, national origin, sex, age, religion, political beliefs, or disability.



There is a spot for race which is labeled optional on the form, but gender isn't included at all. Ditto the "welfare" (FIP) application. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=iowa+welfare+application&aq=f&oq=)


Please show me how your state is different. Wait, wait... are you making stuff up again based on what you heard from some guy?




Hope you have the day off, otherwise, if you live in the US, you are likely posting form work and thus committing theft of network resources and company time, not the habits of a "hard working" person.


Actually, it's an perk of working as hard as I have for this company for 6 years. They don't care when I use the Internet. My boss laughs at me if I ask him if it's ok if I come in 2 hours late, or if I ask if I need to use vacation to take a Friday afternoon off. They don't care if I take long lunches. I'm not clerical staff, I'm not hourly, I basically make my own hours.




Therefore, I must conclude that your claim to intelligence is spurious at best.


I congratulate you on proper use of your word of the day.



Despite your protestations to the contrary, your posting style to anyone you disagree with, anyone that you dislike previously or to new posters does indeed scream for attention with condescension, derision and arrogance.


Who, besides you, have I been screaming for attention via condescension with? Please link me to said post. I think you may be confusing proper English with condescension. Well, except in your case. Then you are spot on.




In 15+ years, when you have genuinely put in the hours and labor I have, seen the economy and jobs and such move as I have and been laid off as many times as I have, then perhaps you will get it.


I've been out of college for 10 years, seen plenty of shifting in the economy, and yet never been laid off. Perhaps it is a combination of the person and the job?




Until then, I must simply assume you are just too young to understand and comment on adult matters.


Whatever makes you feel better. You know, I went to the casino last weekend and they carded me. It's always a highlight to have people think you're much younger than you are.




By the way, if you were caught misusing company resources like I suspect you are in the employ of some of the people I have worked for, you would be in the unemployment line by 5pm.



Would you like me to walk into my bosses' office right now and tell him I've been messing around on the Internet? Should I do that before or after I respond to the LOLcat about zombies that he sent me?


How about the Director of IT? Maybe he'll be more upset. But he did seem to like the Dilbert I sent him last week as it is now posted on the door to the server room, so nah, he'll probably be ok with it, too.


ETA: Slightly on topic - how about drug tests for those posting on this board?

[Mabus]

ETA: Slightly on topic - how about drug tests for those posting on this board?[/LEFT]
Seen on bumper stickers:

The only urine sample you will get from me is a golden shower!

The only urine sample you'll get from me is a taste test!

[Rocktar]

Well, considering you claimed it was $5000, and by your own admission you don't make very much, I'm going to say it went on for the better part of a year. That's insane, and doesn't do much to make your case that you weren't to blame.

I don't make that much NOW, again, read and stop assuming dimwit. Back then, I made quite a decent salary. In fact, I am making about 46% of what I made then and back then my benifits were paid for by my company.

Now, as to being laid off, well, once, the company was bought and all of us in one division were laid off. Second time, I changed companies for a very lucrative offer and then 4 months later they decided they didn't wish to pay for my skills any longer and me and 2 others got laid off, you know, last hired and all that. Third time, they shipped mine and 500 other jobs to India. Fourth time, the economy dropped and sales of product dropped 70% so they laid off about 66% of the sales force. Since I wasn't the ass kissing type, despite my sales being in the top 4, it was more important to keep the owner's son and one of the manager's brothers than me.

So, again, you make condescending and demeaning assumptions about things you know nothing about. This is the hallmark of a child and you clearly display it. As to your boss and the IT people not worrying about it, well, that is their mistake, suck lack of work place dicipline is why some companies fail in the face of brutal competition. Imagine how much more productive you would be if you actually gave the company paying you all that they are paying for? Again, proof that you don't actually work all that hard, only whine about how you do.

[CrystalTears]

As long as the work is done, and the boss doesn't mind internet use, what do you care what she does with her work time? Are you going to criticize everyone else on the boards for participating during working hours too, since a lot of us are guilty of the same thing?

You mismanaged your money... badly. Blaming lay offs or change of HR doesn't change the fact that you should always be aware of what's going in and out of your account.

[Jorddyn]

I don't make that much NOW, again, read and stop assuming dimwit. Back then, I made quite a decent salary. In fact, I am making about 46% of what I made then and back then my benifits were paid for by my company.

If you made approximately $80k/year, it went on for at least 6 months. Anything more than that and you have absolutely no excuse for not having the money to pay it off at year end.


Now, as to being laid off, well, once, the company was bought and all of us in one division were laid off. Second time, I changed companies for a very lucrative offer and then 4 months later they decided they didn't wish to pay for my skills any longer and me and 2 others got laid off, you know, last hired and all that. Third time, they shipped mine and 500 other jobs to India. Fourth time, the economy dropped and sales of product dropped 70% so they laid off about 66% of the sales force. Since I wasn't the ass kissing type, despite my sales being in the top 4, it was more important to keep the owner's son and one of the manager's brothers than me.

It's amazing how much stuff happens to you, and how everything is someone else's fault.


So, again, you make condescending and demeaning assumptions about things you know nothing about. This is the hallmark of a child and you clearly display it.

The fact you keep repeating it doesn't make it true.


As to your boss and the IT people not worrying about it, well, that is their mistake, suck lack of work place dicipline is why some companies fail in the face of brutal competition. Imagine how much more productive you would be if you actually gave the company paying you all that they are paying for? Again, proof that you don't actually work all that hard, only whine about how you do.

The fact that you think Internet usage suggests that I don't actually work all that hard is laughable. Imagine how much less likely I'd be to put in the nights and weekends that I do if they required I be full on, 100%, nose to my spreadsheets, every hour I'm here. The person whining here is not me. I love the company I work for, and some days I even love the job I do.

Still waiting for the link on welfare/foodstamps/etc being based on race and gender by the way.

[Clove]

Now, as to being laid off, well, once, the company was bought and all of us in one division were laid off. Second time, I changed companies for a very lucrative offer and then 4 months later they decided they didn't wish to pay for my skills any longer...I can believe that, particularly if you were required to write properly.


So, again, you make condescending and demeaning assumptions about things you know nothing about.I think you're reaping what you sow here. If you make condescending, and judgemental statements based on ignorance you can expect to be called on it here; and called stupid and ignorant for it without sugar-coating.

[Clove]

The fact that you think Internet usage suggests that I don't actually work all that hard is laughable. Imagine how much less likely I'd be to put in the nights and weekends that I do if they required I be full on, 100%, nose to my spreadsheets, every hour I'm here. The person whining here is not me. I love the company I work for, and some days I even love the job I do.QFT. Some of us are required to have internet access in order to perform our jobs. Some of us also work more than just business hours.

I need to add- the only person that has the right (and perspective) to judge whether or not a person is using their work-time effectively is their supervisor. If you're not them; STFU your speculation is pointless.

Finally, the fact that errors may have been made BY your employer does not exempt YOU from verifying your own salary/withholdings. It is up to you to make sure you are being compensated correctly AND to challenge your employer if you are not. Your employer isn't answerable to the State or Federal Government for the taxes you owe, YOU are. So IF your employer incorrectly withholds YOU are responsible to make up the difference, period. For that reason, for your own benefit and convenience the onus is on you to verify that you are being paid correctly and your withholdings are being performed correctly.

[AnticorRifling]

I don't know why I skipped this thread before, it's gold.