View Full Version : ex commie warns against socialism
Apotheosis
02-19-2009, 12:19 PM
oh.. shit.. reagan's probably flipping in his grave right now.. this story made me ROFL more than anything else
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2188538/posts
Putin warns US to eschew socialism
Posted on Wed Feb 18 15:09:57 2009 by Scanian
What is the world coming to? Pat Dollard reports the Russian leader warned the US against adopting socialism because it doesn't work: Russian Prime Minister Vladamir Putin has said the US should take a lesson from the pages of Russian history and not exercise “excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state’s omnipotence”.
“In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute,” Putin said during a speech at the opening ceremony of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.”
Sounding more like Barry Goldwater than the former head of the KGB, Putin said, “Nor should we turn a blind eye to the fact that the spirit of free enterprise, including the principle of personal responsibility of businesspeople, investors, and shareholders for their decisions, is being eroded in the last few months. There is no reason to believe that we can achieve better results by shifting responsibility onto the state.”
Putin also echoed the words of conservative maverick Ron Paul when he said, “we must assess the real situation and write off all hopeless debts and ‘bad’ assets. True, this will be an extremely painful and unpleasant process. Far from everyone can accept such measures, fearing for their capitalization, bonuses, or reputation. However, we would ‘conserve’ and prolong the crisis, unless we clean up our balance sheets.”
Khariz
02-19-2009, 12:38 PM
oh.. shit.. reagan's probably flipping in his grave right now.. this story made me ROFL more than anything else
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2188538/posts
Putin warns US to eschew socialism
Posted on Wed Feb 18 15:09:57 2009 by Scanian
What is the world coming to? Pat Dollard reports the Russian leader warned the US against adopting socialism because it doesn't work: Russian Prime Minister Vladamir Putin has said the US should take a lesson from the pages of Russian history and not exercise “excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state’s omnipotence”.
“In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute,” Putin said during a speech at the opening ceremony of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.”
Sounding more like Barry Goldwater than the former head of the KGB, Putin said, “Nor should we turn a blind eye to the fact that the spirit of free enterprise, including the principle of personal responsibility of businesspeople, investors, and shareholders for their decisions, is being eroded in the last few months. There is no reason to believe that we can achieve better results by shifting responsibility onto the state.”
Putin also echoed the words of conservative maverick Ron Paul when he said, “we must assess the real situation and write off all hopeless debts and ‘bad’ assets. True, this will be an extremely painful and unpleasant process. Far from everyone can accept such measures, fearing for their capitalization, bonuses, or reputation. However, we would ‘conserve’ and prolong the crisis, unless we clean up our balance sheets.”
This is awesome.
Apotheosis
02-19-2009, 12:48 PM
here's a link to the full speech..... it's remarkably.. coherent.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123317069332125243.html
Khariz
02-19-2009, 01:02 PM
A lot of people on this board are still pretending that the road we are going down is NOT socialist in nature. Some of these same people are fond of the whole "if it walks like a duck..." mentality on other subjects.
I'd say that Vladimir Putin warning us not go down this road is pretty telling. Take that for what you will.
Parkbandit
02-19-2009, 01:07 PM
A lot of people on this board are still pretending that the road we are going down is NOT socialist in nature. Some of these same people are fond of the whole "if it walks like a duck..." mentality on other subjects.
I'd say that Vladimir Putin warning us not go down this road is pretty telling. Take that for what you will.
I bet it's reverse psychology. "You don't want to do that".. and the kid does it to spite the parent anyway.
Soon, we shall call Putin "Big Daddy"
Khariz
02-19-2009, 01:10 PM
I bet it's reverse psychology. "You don't want to do that".. and the kid does it to spite the parent anyway.
Soon, we shall call Putin "Big Daddy"
Well, I'm sure that it's certainly true that despite his words he knows it would be in Russia's best "power interest" for us to go ahead and destroy our economy, but I'm not sure he actually wants us to do it. The worlds economy is too symbiotic right now. Or rather, it seems that way, perhaps I'm wrong.
Apotheosis
02-19-2009, 01:13 PM
Well, I'm sure that it's certainly true that despite his words he knows it would be in Russia's best "power interest" for us to go ahead and destroy our economy, but I'm not sure he actually wants us to do it. The worlds economy is too symbiotic right now. Or rather, it seems that way, perhaps I'm wrong.
look.. if you were #2 or number #3 in a competitive business, and #1 suddenly declared "umm, we're outta this market"... well, you a have a lot to gain.....
let's not forget, Putin has also said something along the lines that the future of the global economy will no longer be dependent on US Consumer model or (something along those lines)
Mtenda
02-19-2009, 01:51 PM
A lot of people on this board are still pretending that the road we are going down is NOT socialist in nature. Some of these same people are fond of the whole "if it walks like a duck..." mentality on other subjects.
I'd say that Vladimir Putin warning us not go down this road is pretty telling. Take that for what you will.
Why does it have to be all or none?
The comments at the bottom of this article are an absolute lollercaust. A lot of people on this board are still pretending that the road we are going down is a result of the president that has been in office for an entire month.
Stanley Burrell
02-19-2009, 02:48 PM
oh.. shit.. reagan's probably flipping in his grave right now.. this story made me ROFL more than anything else
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2188538/posts
Putin warns US to eschew socialism
Posted on Wed Feb 18 15:09:57 2009 by Scanian
What is the world coming to? Pat Dollard reports the Russian leader warned the US against adopting socialism because it doesn't work: Russian Prime Minister Vladamir Putin has said the US should take a lesson from the pages of Russian history and not exercise “excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state’s omnipotence”.
“In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute,” Putin said during a speech at the opening ceremony of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.”
Sounding more like Barry Goldwater than the former head of the KGB, Putin said, “Nor should we turn a blind eye to the fact that the spirit of free enterprise, including the principle of personal responsibility of businesspeople, investors, and shareholders for their decisions, is being eroded in the last few months. There is no reason to believe that we can achieve better results by shifting responsibility onto the state.”
Putin also echoed the words of conservative maverick Ron Paul when he said, “we must assess the real situation and write off all hopeless debts and ‘bad’ assets. True, this will be an extremely painful and unpleasant process. Far from everyone can accept such measures, fearing for their capitalization, bonuses, or reputation. However, we would ‘conserve’ and prolong the crisis, unless we clean up our balance sheets.”
I didn't really read this article since it's mostly one-sided bullshit; but, out of morbid curiosity, have you ever seen/heard/tasted/touched your pp with a country that was an actual communist nation??
Russia and China are the greatest Communist nations in the world. With tiered leaders and governments whose bureaucrats plant corn everyday in the fields alongside their fellow doctors, lawyers and soldiers.
Each and every person of this nation carry exactly one saltbar in your pocket. Starting now.
`1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./
Edited to Add -- I should say: This is in response to the "ex-commie" part of your post. Because you know Putin was singing the Volga Boatman song while sitting next to Siddhartha before he moved onto a kibbutz.
And yes: Basically fuck anyone who doesn't have enough cultural literacy to understand that Communism has basically-pretty-much-sort-of-kinda-never-fucking-existed and that if you think otherwise you're mildly schizophrenic.
Stanley Burrell
02-19-2009, 03:01 PM
I bet it's reverse psychology. "You don't want to do that".. and the kid does it to spite the parent anyway.
Soon, we shall call Putin "Big Daddy"
You are old and decrepit.
Parkbandit
02-19-2009, 10:23 PM
You are old and decrepit.
Still in far better shape than you'll ever be in. Please OD on something tonight.
Apotheosis
02-19-2009, 10:30 PM
I didn't really read this article since it's mostly one-sided bullshit; but, out of morbid curiosity, have you ever seen/heard/tasted/touched your pp with a country that was an actual communist nation??
Russia and China are the greatest Communist nations in the world. With tiered leaders and governments whose bureaucrats plant corn everyday in the fields alongside their fellow doctors, lawyers and soldiers.
Each and every person of this nation carry exactly one saltbar in your pocket. Starting now.
`1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./
Edited to Add -- I should say: This is in response to the "ex-commie" part of your post. Because you know Putin was singing the Volga Boatman song while sitting next to Siddhartha before he moved onto a kibbutz.
And yes: Basically fuck anyone who doesn't have enough cultural literacy to understand that Communism has basically-pretty-much-sort-of-kinda-never-fucking-existed and that if you think otherwise you're mildly schizophrenic.
lol.. i just thought dropping "commie" in there would be funny......
human greed is a factor that will always be a part of society whether we like it or not, therefore any political system will always end up not being what it's "Utopian Ideals" would like to express...
By our own biological nature, we are all unique individuals (unique DNA, etc.).
By our own psychological nature, we are mostly unique individuals (personality, etc.).
In other words "ideal" communism will never exist.
What you end up with in the end is a totalitarian system.
Totalitarianism is never good.
lol.. i just thought dropping "commie" in there would be funny......
human greed is a factor that will always be a part of society whether we like it or not, therefore any political system will always end up not being what it's "Utopian Ideals" would like to express...
By our own biological nature, we are all unique individuals (unique DNA, etc.).
By our own psychological nature, we are mostly unique individuals (personality, etc.).
In other words "ideal" communism will never exist.
What you end up with in the end is a totalitarian system.
Totalitarianism is never good.
If you subscribe to Nietzsche thought, sure.
He hit the mark on a few things but I think he was somewhat pessimistic about the human race. And where does pessimism get you?
Stanley Burrell
02-19-2009, 10:48 PM
Still in far better shape than you'll ever be in.
I didn't know who could grow a receding hairline the fastest was a measure of Olympian might. My bad.
Please OD on something tonight.
...
...
...
Alright, fine.
Rocktar
02-20-2009, 01:22 PM
Putin wants more money so he is sucking up. Russia was betting on oil and gas prices at 70+ a barrel for their budget and well, since they both tanked, they don't have the money to do what they want, so, they are trying to play nice nice and suck up. Maybe get some Foreign Aid, a sympathy blow form Hillary, something to maybe get some money flowing into his country to help keep it afloat.
Clove
02-20-2009, 01:29 PM
lol.. i just thought dropping "commie" in there would be funny......
human greed is a factor that will always be a part of society whether we like it or not, therefore any political system will always end up not being what it's "Utopian Ideals" would like to express...
By our own biological nature, we are all unique individuals (unique DNA, etc.).
By our own psychological nature, we are mostly unique individuals (personality, etc.).
In other words "ideal" communism will never exist.
What you end up with in the end is a totalitarian system.
Totalitarianism is never good.Stanley gave you a hint with Kibbutz. Not only were they examples of communism, some are actually democratic communisms. Backlash- I just want to preemptively tell you to STFU before you comment on this.
Warriorbird
02-20-2009, 01:34 PM
Spooky. I somewhat agree with Rocktar.
Kembal
02-20-2009, 03:28 PM
Russia's screwed for a while, no doubt. But interesting point: When did we start trusting any of the words that come out of Putin's mouth?
Atlanteax
02-20-2009, 03:33 PM
Watch for a crash of the Russian Ruble at some point within the next several months.
Warriorbird
02-20-2009, 05:29 PM
Eh. I'm not sure Putin's ever really been a 'Commie' in the philosophical sense either. People forget that he was one of George Bush Sr.'s CIA assets.
LMingrone
02-20-2009, 06:26 PM
Russia is just as fucked as we are at the moment. We are now, in my opinion, a borderline socialist nation. EVERYONE is very scared about what's going to happen next. I voted for Obama, but, this stimulus plan he has is complete garbage.
Everyone has their own right to think what the best government is. So I'm not being elitist.
Myself, I'm more for a free market, democratic republic. Socialism can work, but not when people can't all do their own part in supporting it. I say just let everything clapse already. Maybe then people would get off their lazy asses and work to have a life they can enjoy. I'm not paying for their asses anymore.
Apotheosis
02-20-2009, 10:56 PM
If you subscribe to Nietzsche thought, sure.
He hit the mark on a few things but I think he was somewhat pessimistic about the human race. And where does pessimism get you?
Well.. argue with me or not, but relativistic philosophy pretty much contradicts itself by its own nature.
soooo.. in a society with diverging cultures & philosophies, a communist nation will not thrive / function, in fact, it goes against what is required for communism: complete submission to a singular philosophical/ethical/whateveryacallit viewpoint.
the comment on the kibbutz makes sense, only because they share a similar cultural, genealogical, spiritual thread... in fact, it's been proposed that early Christians lived in a communal-type of culture as well, however that is only practical on a MICRO scale, and could not, would not work on a MACRO scale because of the innate tendency of a % of the population to rebel against the current culture.
Warriorbird
02-20-2009, 11:11 PM
:shrugs: Centrism and relativism are a spectrum. I think each have their problems.
Well.. argue with me or not, but relativistic philosophy pretty much contradicts itself by its own nature.
soooo.. in a society with diverging cultures & philosophies, a communist nation will not thrive / function, in fact, it goes against what is required for communism: complete submission to a singular philosophical/ethical/whateveryacallit viewpoint.
the comment on the kibbutz makes sense, only because they share a similar cultural, genealogical, spiritual thread... in fact, it's been proposed that early Christians lived in a communal-type of culture as well, however that is only practical on a MICRO scale, and could not, would not work on a MACRO scale because of the innate tendency of a % of the population to rebel against the current culture.
Aw, fuck. I’m too tired to debate this.
How do you think humans built great cities? Why can you walk down the street and not get eaten by a Tyranasour?
How do ant, bee, or any number of colonies survive?
Communism comes from another word. Community.
Oh yeah, on the kibbutz comment...
Visit one some day and you will find all kinds of people. Not just Israelis. Nor with moshavs either.
Apotheosis
02-20-2009, 11:34 PM
Aw, fuck. I’m too tired to debate this.
How do you think humans built great cities?
How do you define a "great city"?
Why can you walk down the street and not get eaten by a Tyranasour?
Because they died as a result of series of complex unknown circumstances
How do ant, bee, or any number of colonies survive?
Because, biology & evolution dictated their function.
Drones are drones because of their biology, not because a drone decided to rebel against it's biological nature and become a queen, or evolve into an ant
Communism comes from another word. Community.
According to my dictionary, communism is
"a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs."
according to my dictionary, one of the many definitions of community is,
"all the people living in a particular area or place"
technically they both come from the same or similar latin root, however, that means dick, especially when you of all people understand that words can have more than one meaning or can BE REDEFINED AT WILL by any one or more group of people.
Apotheosis
02-20-2009, 11:36 PM
Oh yeah, on the kibbutz comment...
Visit one some day and you will find all kinds of people. Not just Israelis. Nor with moshavs either.
ok.. fine.. i have nothing philosophically against the concept of a kibbutz, however i still claim that it only works on a micro level and not a macro level....
HOWEVER, outside of being "born into one", don't people VOLUNTARILY enter into it? I mean.. I don't care if there are communes or separate communities in the US (Amish, etc.), however those people more or less CHOOSE to live that way...
clearly 50% (maybe more) of the united states is not interested in being socialist or communist and therefore have a right to be upset with the way the see things currently headed.
Daniel
02-21-2009, 10:43 AM
I'm so glad our enemies are giving us unsolicited advice and I'm even gladder our resident retards are proving once again that they will cling to anything that supports their ridiculous point of view, even the President of Russia.
That's a good idea.
Clove
02-21-2009, 11:05 AM
the comment on the kibbutz makes sense, only because they share a similar cultural, genealogical, spiritual thread... in fact, it's been proposed that early Christians lived in a communal-type of culture as well, however that is only practical on a MICRO scale, and could not, would not work on a MACRO scale because of the innate tendency of a % of the population to rebel against the current culture.QFT. Kibbutz' work because they are small enough to. A large, diverse, free society doesn't conform well to communism, and we've seen the evidence of this statement in the Soviet Union and China. It works in kibbutz' because they are a collection of small autonomous communes more akin to tribes and villages than countries and nations. Backlash- STFU.
Apotheosis
02-21-2009, 11:19 AM
QFT. Kibbutz' work because they are small enough to. A large, diverse, free society doesn't conform well to communism, and we've seen the evidence of this statement in the Soviet Union and China. It works in kibbutz' because they are a collection of small autonomous communes more akin to tribes and villages than countries and nations. Backlash- STFU.
Right.. I think we agree.. lol...
Clove
02-21-2009, 02:14 PM
Right.. I think we agree.. lol...On what? That Backlash should STFU? Or that communisms become less feasible the larger they become?
Apotheosis
02-21-2009, 02:32 PM
On what? That Backlash should STFU? Or that communisms become less feasible the larger they become?
well.. probably one both.. back isn't persuading me to agree to his point of view because his points don't make sense to my line of thinking..
i thought i posited that communes become less feasible the larger they become but maybe I didn't word it quite right...
Clove
02-21-2009, 04:03 PM
i thought i posited that communes become less feasible the larger they become but maybe I didn't word it quite right...No you worded it correctly you just don't understand Backlashian thought:
PC Poster: Apples are red
Backlash: But oranges are delicious and they aren't red
PC Poster: Huh?
Backlash: What's wrong with orange anyway? it's a beautiful color and it's just as good as red!
PC Poster: Uh. I didn't say that I said apples are red, moron.
Backlash: Dude! Chill out. You're trying too hard. Hahahaha I don't care anyway. Why don't we all go smoke a bowl....
etc., etc., etc.
Apotheosis
02-21-2009, 05:33 PM
No you worded it correctly you just don't understand Backlashian thought:
PC Poster: Apples are red
Backlash: But oranges are delicious and they aren't red
PC Poster: Huh?
Backlash: What's wrong with orange anyway? it's a beautiful color and it's just as good as red!
PC Poster: Uh. I didn't say that I said apples are red, moron.
Backlash: Dude! Chill out. You're trying too hard. Hahahaha I don't care anyway. Why don't we all go smoke a bowl....
etc., etc., etc.
rofl... I respect Back on some issues.... but that was kinda like the feeling I got when I was like.. dude.. communism works on a small, not large scale and it was like "but dude, communism comes from community" and I was like, WTF kinda point does that make?
Stanley Burrell
02-21-2009, 05:41 PM
rofl... I respect Back on some issues.... but that was kinda like the feeling I got when I was like.. dude.. communism works on a small, not large scale and it was like "but dude, communism comes from community" and I was like, WTF kinda point does that make?
Not only that but communication, commerce, commbat. ...Wombat?
So yes: Wombats = Communism.
http://toby.wilcox.googlepages.com/WombatBaby.jpg
ViridianAsp
02-21-2009, 05:51 PM
Aw, fuck. I’m too tired to debate this.
How do you think humans built great cities? Why can you walk down the street and not get eaten by a Tyranasour?
How do ant, bee, or any number of colonies survive?
Communism comes from another word. Community.
If we're talking about "Great Cities" Like Rome, they were a Republic, not communist.
Communism doesn't work, we've seen various examples of how it fails miserably due to Human greed.
Apotheosis
02-21-2009, 05:59 PM
If we're talking about "Great Cities" Like Rome, they were a Republic, not communist.
Communism doesn't work, we've seen various examples of how it fails miserably due to Human greed.
ironically, Rome failed to to a bajillion factors including greed
ViridianAsp
02-21-2009, 06:02 PM
ironically, Rome failed to to a bajillion factors including greed
Inevitably, most all forms of government go down in flames due to greed. Rome's government lasted a good while, considering.
Honestly, I always chalked Rome's failure up to Roman arrogance and unwillingness to adapt and immerse themselves in the cultures of their conquered.
droit
02-21-2009, 06:06 PM
Communism doesn't work, we've seen various examples of how it fails miserably due to Human greed.
I'd say our current financial crisis is the result of unfettered capitalist greed. Greed is a universal threat to economic stability in a system that has finite resources.
Clove
02-21-2009, 06:23 PM
I'd say our current financial crisis is the result of unfettered capitalist greed. Greed is a universal threat to economic stability in a system that has finite resources.I'd say our financial crisis is the result of greed, period. Greed expressed by gaming a free-market system until it broke. Greed of officials who, in exchange for money and power, were willing to "unfetter" capitalism however they could or at best, turn a blind eye to abusers. And now finally greed expressed by privatized profit but socialized loss "we're too big to die the sudden, messy death we deserve- we'll take you with us!!!!".
Apotheosis
02-21-2009, 06:27 PM
I'd say our financial crisis is the result of greed, period. Greed expressed by gaming a free-market system until it broke. Greed of officials who, in exchange for money and power, were willing to "unfetter" capitalism however they could or at best, turn a blind eye to abusers. And now finally greed expressed by privatized profit but socialized loss "we're too big to die the sudden, messy death we deserve- we'll take you with us!!!!".
hence the reason to invest in tar, chicken feathers, pitchforks and torches
ViridianAsp
02-21-2009, 06:32 PM
I'd say our current financial crisis is the result of unfettered capitalist greed. Greed is a universal threat to economic stability in a system that has finite resources.
I don't disagree with you, but Communism isn't any better. While on paper it is makes sense, when used it fails. Is all I'm saying.
Clove
02-21-2009, 06:36 PM
hence the reason to invest in tar, chicken feathers, pitchforks and torches
Sums it up for me...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2904143651_c2778c27a1.jpg?v=0
Mabus
02-21-2009, 08:05 PM
ironically, Rome failed to to a bajillion factors including greed
We would have to pick which fall of the Roman empire to discuss possibilities (as it "fell" many times).
Plague, lead poisoning, military advancement by Germanic peoples, a failing economy, low birth rate, inclusion of "barbarian" tribes into the legions and yes, even greed, all conspired to end Pax Romana.
As to Rome being a republic, it had fallen into monarchy (and even authoritarian rule) before its decline.
To stay on topic, (imo) I agree that some forms of governmental systems work in smaller communities, where all participants can watch and speak about the lack of contributions of others freely, and where the community can then "vote out" the slackers. Without sacrificing our individual liberties and freedoms these same systems cannot work as large country governments, as history has shown.
Well.. argue with me or not, but relativistic philosophy pretty much contradicts itself by its own nature.
soooo.. in a society with diverging cultures & philosophies, a communist nation will not thrive / function, in fact, it goes against what is required for communism: complete submission to a singular philosophical/ethical/whateveryacallit viewpoint.
the comment on the kibbutz makes sense, only because they share a similar cultural, genealogical, spiritual thread... in fact, it's been proposed that early Christians lived in a communal-type of culture as well, however that is only practical on a MICRO scale, and could not, would not work on a MACRO scale because of the innate tendency of a % of the population to rebel against the current culture.
Aw, fuck. I’m too tired to debate this.
How do you think humans built great cities? Why can you walk down the street and not get eaten by a Tyranasour?
How do ant, bee, or any number of colonies survive?
Communism comes from another word. Community.
well.. probably one both.. back isn't persuading me to agree to his point of view because his points don't make sense to my line of thinking..
i thought i posited that communes become less feasible the larger they become but maybe I didn't word it quite right...
Yeah, it was late. I tend to ramble stream of consciousness and its hard to draw the lines when so many connections arise. So, to answer more coherently...
You seem insistent that a communist system will not work and then later elaborate that it will not work on a large scale.
Obviously, so far, it hasn’t.
My view is different. I think it could succeed in the right conditions.
Communism is based on the most basic of economies. The family unit. Everyone in the family helps out around the house and enjoy the benefits of living in that house regardless of each individual’s income.
As has been said by yourself the earliest civilizations, or tribes, or communities, were basically communal. Communist, communal, communities... see the link? This is the birth of civilization so it must work on some level.
When I think on human abstracts like economies or political systems, or anything to do with human issues, I like to try comparisons with the natural world and how they may or may not relate. Bees are a good example. Its communist in the sense that the family unit is. Just a really really large family. And bees are a very successful species. When I see that kind of success in the animal kingdom I think it could apply to humans as well.
So, in essence, while you think communism will never work, I think it could for the reasons above.
PS. The reference to the Tyrannosaur was a comment on predatory individualism vs. social collectivism. I’d posit that while individualism still occurs and can be successful it is not as successful as collectives are.
Mabus
02-21-2009, 08:11 PM
As has been said by yourself the earliest civilizations, or tribes, or communities, were basically communal. Communist, communal, communities... see the link? This is the birth of civilization so it must work on some level.
I would disagree with the ruling system of early humans. There is a good chance that they were dictatorships, ruled by alpha males/females. Most higher mammal societies function in this way.
I would disagree with the ruling system of early humans. There is a good chance that they were dictatorships, ruled by alpha males/females. Most higher mammal societies function in this way.
The same with the family unit. But we are talking about economies not political systems.
Clove
02-21-2009, 10:04 PM
Communism is based on the most basic of economies. The family unit. Everyone in the family helps out around the house and enjoy the benefits of living in that house regardless of each individual’s income.They enjoy benefits of the family, but certainly not equally. The economy of who gets how much of what is determined by the family head(s) and depending on the family this could be the primary earner(s), the primary housemaker or a mixture of the two. To put it more succinctly, while everyone shares benefits in most cases how much influence you have in a family's economy generally depends on how much you contribute to it in some material way. Children usually have little or no influence. Adult income providers usually have substantial influence. Not exactly the model of fair and equal for all is it?
They enjoy benefits of the family, but certainly not equally. The economy of who gets how much of what is determined by the family head(s) and depending on the family this could be the primary earner(s), the primary housemaker or a mixture of the two. To put it more succinctly, while everyone shares benefits in most cases how much influence you have in a family's economy generally depends on how much you contribute to it in some material way. Children usually have little or no influence. Adult income providers usually have substantial influence. Not exactly the model of fair and equal for all is it?
Again we are talking economic systems and not political systems. A family unit is very rarely a democracy. Usually its a patriarchal or matriarchal totalitarianism. Rebellion in this political system is probably more about politics than economics.
The bread winner dictates the rules. Or the oldest with the “wisdom” does. Aren’t we kind of living that as a society right now?
Thanks, Clove, for responding humanely. Now you’ve done something that I enjoy... Socratic dialogue. Points to you.
Now that you mention it. It seems to me that democracy, as a political system, is more related to communism in a political way. The correlation being having a voice, no matter how small or what your economic status is, being equal to others.
Clove
02-21-2009, 10:28 PM
Again we are talking economic systems and not political systems. A family unit is very rarely a democracy. Usually its a patriarchal or matriarchal totalitarianism. Rebellion in this political system is probably more about politics than economics.
The bread winner dictates the rules. Or the oldest with the “wisdom” does. Aren’t we kind of living that as a society right now?What part of "economic influence" are you missing? Also economies are connected to the system of government running them. Which is why a democratic communism operates VERY differently from a despotic communism. You may want to separate the two to make it easier to prove your point, but that only works in imagination-land. In the real world economics and politics are siamese twins. To discuss one without the other is useful in econ 101 and poly-sci 101 but virtually nowhere else.
Now that you mention it. It seems to me that democracy, as a political system, is more related to communism in a political way. The correlation being having a voice, no matter how small or what your economic status is, being equal to others.Don't start that nonsense again.
For the same reason we need a separation of church and state we need a separation of government and economy.See above response.
For the same reason we need a separation of church and state we need a separation of government and economy.
What part of "economic influence" are you missing? Also economies are connected to the system of government running them. Which is why a democratic communism operates VERY differently from a despotic communism. You may want to separate the two to make it easier to prove your point, but that only works in imagination-land.
Imagination-land is the providence of progress.
Long ago there was no such thing as a fork. But then one day someone imagined it.
I hope Apothesis likes this. Putin also thought America should re-elect Bush back in ’04.
I created a poster on my opinion on that...
http://zendada.com/images/vote101804.gif
Mabus
02-22-2009, 12:42 AM
I hope Apothesis likes this. Putin also thought America should re-elect Bush back in ’04.
I created a poster on my opinion on that...
Come now, that is just trolling.
Who cares who Putin endorses in the USA elections? It could just as easily be asked who Hamas endorsed in our last presidential election. Neither really matter.
Well then, that makes the point moot.
Clove
02-22-2009, 09:31 AM
Imagination-land is the providence of progress.
Long ago there was no such thing as a fork. But then one day someone imagined it.Oh I see, so that means everything you imagine will one day be real. Tell me, how are you doing on the square root of -1? Stop trying to romanticize your own ignorance. Imagination is an important component of progress along with other, more practical ones. People who constantly "solve" problems with imaginary solutions are called "children" or "insane". Which are you?
Socratic dialogue. Points to you.
This has got to be yet another reference from your imaginary dictionary as we are in no way having a Socratic dialogue.
Warriorbird
02-22-2009, 11:11 AM
One would hope Putin had endorsed Bush. He worked for his Dad.
This has got to be yet another reference from your imaginary dictionary as we are in no way having a Socratic dialogue.
Yeah. You’re right about that. Hard to do when one party is being a persnickety little bitch.
Clove
02-22-2009, 01:13 PM
Yeah. You’re right about that. Hard to do when one party is being a persnickety little bitch.Well it has more to do with the form bearing no resemblance to a Socratic dialogue; particularly since we don't finish the argument agreeing with each other. Or it could just be because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Keller
02-22-2009, 01:19 PM
No you worded it correctly you just don't understand Backlashian thought:
PC Poster: Apples are red
Backlash: But oranges are delicious and they aren't red
PC Poster: Huh?
Backlash: What's wrong with orange anyway? it's a beautiful color and it's just as good as red!
PC Poster: Uh. I didn't say that I said apples are red, moron.
Backlash: Dude! Chill out. You're trying too hard. Hahahaha I don't care anyway. Why don't we all go smoke a bowl....
etc., etc., etc.
Epic Post.
TheRunt
02-22-2009, 03:12 PM
Imagination-land is the providence of progress.
No imaginationland is where Kurt Russel gets raped by satanic christmas critters.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/imaginationland_movie/
Epic Post.
Meh. I can admit when I’m off. But since you guys want to play that game...
Poster X: The sky is blue.
Clove: Do you even know what blue means you moron??? Oh yeah the sky is just one shade of blue in my fantasy land! Blue is the general term for a shade of the light spectrum. The sky is just not blue you dipshit! Its many shades of many colors! THE SKY ISN"T BLUE AT NIGHT!!!!!
Poster X: Uh, settle down.
Clove: Settle down? You must mean smoke pot! I won’t settle down you drug addict! I’m going to be pissy because I’m permanently on the rag and plague every post you make with bullshit semantic arguments! ASLKDH AHFKSK! KMLDSSA<LHB MKASMKAAFFS>?DA>:ADDDDDDKWE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keller: Ha ha ha. He shore told u.
Poster X: ???
Tea & Strumpets
02-22-2009, 09:09 PM
Imagination-land is the providence of progress.
Long ago there was no such thing as a fork. But then one day someone imagined it.
Your attempts at debate really are bad. I try not to make fun, but you make it very difficult with your amazingly fuzzy logic (my apologies to logic).
Your attempts at debate really are bad. I try not to make fun, but you make it very difficult with your amazingly fuzzy logic (my apologies to logic).
Thanks but I already know this.
But think about it. Your response to that post that I made was never in existence until you made it and you had to think about it before you made it... thus proving my theory.
Parkbandit
02-23-2009, 07:54 AM
Thanks but I already know this.
But think about it. Your response to that post that I made was never in existence until you made it and you had to think about it before you made it... thus proving my theory.
Kids... this is your brain on drugs.
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