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Keller
01-12-2009, 11:08 AM
Interesting op-ed from today's WSJ below. I bolded for those who only want to skim. Reading only the bold should give you a clear picture of the articles contents.

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Though Barack Obama is offering record tax cuts this year as part of a new stimulus package, make no mistake -- taxes will rise substantially in the next decade. The reason is simple: As 76 million baby boomers hit their rocking chairs, we're poised to double the number of seniors on Social Security and Medicare.

We've already got $50 trillion in unfunded liabilities in these and related programs. There's no way to make the math work at current levels of taxation.
Don't take my word for it. Listen to some of today's pre-eminent Republican budget analysts, who've told me that taxes are going up no matter who is in power. Like every Republican who aspires to serve in a public role, they've been schooled by the party's antitax police to avoid saying things too definitively, or to leave themselves an "if we only got tough on spending" escape hatch. We know this spending talk is a charade, though, because Republicans balked at trimming a few teensy billion from the next trillion in planned Medicaid outlays when they controlled every corner of Washington a few years ago. So there's no mistaking what these folks are saying.

"If you do nothing on the spending side, you're going to raise taxes whether you're a Republican, a Democrat, or a Martian," says Douglas Holtz-Eakin, the Republican-appointed director of the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) from 2003 to 2005, who also served as the top economic adviser to John McCain's presidential campaign. "It's arithmetic."

Federal revenue today is 18.8% of GDP, and federal spending (not including 2008's extraordinary Fannie and Freddie bailouts and TARP) is 20%. Mr. Holtz-Eakin told me "the pressures are there" to lift spending and taxes to 23% or 24% of GDP by around 2020, and to as much as 27% if health costs remain out of control. Note that, in the context of a $14 trillion economy, he's predicting (at the low end) a $550 billion to $700 billion tax increase, per year, in today's dollars.

Over lunch one day during the recent presidential campaign, I spoke with Dan Crippen, another former CBO chief who was advising Sen. McCain. (Our ground rules were that I could not attribute these comments to Mr. Crippen until after the campaign, because a "straight talker" like Mr. McCain could not be seen to be advised by someone who actually talked straight on taxes!)

Are taxes going up? I asked.

"Yeah," Mr. Crippen said. "I think it is inevitable."

"If you were a betting man at this point, are taxes going be higher as a share of GDP in 2020?

"Definitely."

"How much higher?

"I don't know."

"Ballpark."

"Twenty-two [percent of GDP]," he said. "But 2020 is still a little bit at the front end of the boomers. You can figure 24, 25 by 2030."

"Let's say we're at 22 in 2020, up from 18-ish today," I said. "Is that some disaster for the economy? Will it really make a big difference?"

"Probably not," he said. "Depends on how you do it, of course."

David Walker is a Republican turned independent who served as comptroller general of the U.S. from 1998 to 2008, when he left to run the Peter G. Peterson Foundation. As head of the Government Accountability Office, he was part of a national "Fiscal Wake-Up Tour" in recent years that called attention to our long-run budget woes, a campaign he is expanding in his new role. Mr. Walker told me when we spoke in his government office in 2007 that taxes would grow to 20% to 25% of GDP within 20 years, depending on how "radical" we get about spending cuts. Since we know serious spending cuts are unlikely -- and that even reasonable success slowing the growth of entitlements will leave spending much higher as a share of GDP than it is today -- it's fair to interpret Mr. Walker's conclusion as being closer to 25% of GDP than to 20%.

So, the consensus of two professional Republican budgeteers and the nation's pre-eminent fiscal worrywart is that taxes will rise by between 4% to 7% of GDP over the next 10 to 20 years, translating (in today's dollars) into $550 billion to $1 trillion more in new annual taxes. You heard it here first: The Republicans have a secret plan to raise taxes. So do the Democrats, of course, and well beyond the rollback of the Bush tax cuts for the top rates they felt safe discussing during the 2008 presidential campaign.

No taxpayer looks forward to paying more. But the inevitability of higher taxes offers an overdue chance to change the debate. Though it may seem hard to imagine now, the endless fights about whether taxes should go up will soon seem passé. The real question once this recession has passed will be: Given that taxes have to rise, how should we raise the revenue we need in ways that are best for the economy? The answer will involve lower taxes on payrolls and corporations, and higher taxes on dirty energy and consumption.

This adjustment will be hardest for the GOP, because the conservative mind is caught in the past. Republicans cherish the political triumphs their tax cut mantra has delivered, and naturally resist the idea that its time is passing. But, as Ronald Reagan often said, "Facts are stubborn things." Lowering the top marginal tax rate from 70% toward 30%, as the Republicans did under Reagan, was a major economic and political achievement. Going downward from the mid 30s, where the marginal rate stands today, wouldn't be nearly as big a deal, and the boomers' imminent retirement makes it a moot question anyway.

So why, I asked Mr. Holtz-Eakin, does tax-cutting mania persist among Republicans -- given that the impact can't be great at today's much lower tax rates, and that, as he himself explained to me, taxes will soon have to go up substantially in any event? "It's the brand," he said. "And you don't dilute the brand."
Yes, we still have a serious recession to get through. But the overarching challenge for Republicans in its aftermath will be to craft a new political identity that doesn't rely on a dead idea.

Drew
01-12-2009, 11:08 AM
Might want to fix the formatting.

Keller
01-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Uhh, I'll fix this during lunch.

Ignot
01-12-2009, 11:14 AM
Not really anything new.

g++
01-12-2009, 11:15 AM
Not really anything new.

Wow you can read that? Are you an internet browser?

Jorddyn
01-12-2009, 11:26 AM
Remove the cap, raise the age by at least a month every year until it's back in line with current life expectancy, allow guest worker status, only allow citizens to collect.

Keller
01-12-2009, 11:31 AM
Uhh, I'll fix this during lunch.

fixed.

I love conference calls.

g++
01-12-2009, 11:35 AM
Remove the cap, raise the age by at least a month every year until it's back in line with current life expectancy, allow guest worker status, only allow citizens to collect.

That makes far too much sense. I have been watching FOX for years so I know the only real solution to this problem is some kind of death lottery.

Ignot
01-12-2009, 11:39 AM
Wow you can read that? Are you an internet browser?

Was this article really news to you? If so then your a fucking moron.

Jorddyn
01-12-2009, 11:42 AM
That makes far too much sense. I have been watching FOX for years so I know the only real solution to this problem is some kind of death lottery.

That's the solution to a lot of problems. Except I'd want to be the one running the lottery. And I fully admit I'd be utterly corrupt and few would "win" due to pure chance.

g++
01-12-2009, 11:46 AM
Was this article really news to you? If so then your a fucking moron.

I really dont get why you are lashing out about it being common knowledge. Its kind of like the captain of the Titanic being like no shit were heading for an iceberg, everyone knows were headed for an iceberg get back to polishing the deck and shut the fuck up about it already.

I mean I am sure Keller posted the article to start a discussion about it not inform of us of this breaking news.

Keller
01-12-2009, 11:49 AM
I mean I am sure Keller posted the article to start a discussion about it not inform of us of this breaking news.

In particular the "how do we efficiently raise taxes?" bit.

Ignot
01-12-2009, 11:50 AM
My bad, i didn't know you enjoyed talking about things that have already been discussed and are well known.

Hey! I think I can find an article about how the Earth is round and not flat. Maybe we can discuss that?

LoL, you are such a douche sometimes.

g++
01-12-2009, 11:56 AM
My bad, i didn't know you enjoyed talking about things that have already been discussed and are well known.

Hey! I think I can find an article about how the Earth is round and not flat. Maybe we can discuss that?

LoL, you are such a douche sometimes.

Ok buddy I dont know who your angry with but its not me. Im done.

Keller
01-12-2009, 11:58 AM
My bad, i didn't know you enjoyed talking about things that have already been discussed and are well known.

Hey! I think I can find an article about how the Earth is round and not flat. Maybe we can discuss that?

LoL, you are such a douche sometimes.

huh?

Your analogy is poor. Maybe if the article was about how the earth was round and therefore we needed new farming tactics. Then the discussion is about the new farming tactics. Not about how the earth is round.

Jorddyn
01-12-2009, 11:59 AM
Really, this discussion is about the Hatfields and McCoys.

Keller
01-12-2009, 12:00 PM
Was this article really news to you? If so then your a fucking moron.

Ok buddy I dont know who your angry with but its not me. Im done.

All I know if when you're angry/frustrated, you aren't great at teh grammarz.

g++
01-12-2009, 12:01 PM
All I know if when you're angry/frustrated, you aren't great at teh grammarz.

Apostrophes are overrated.

Keller
01-12-2009, 12:03 PM
Apostrophes are overrated.

so are "e"s?

Ignot
01-12-2009, 12:05 PM
Look, if you want to post about politics then do so. But please try to post things that have a little more substance then your usual posts which are just regurtitating the same thing over and over. I made a smartass comment, then G++ made a smart ass comment, then I made one back. I'm sorry if I offended you sensitive political types. I will let you get back to discussing all of this stuff again, for the 100th time.

Keller
01-12-2009, 12:12 PM
First, thank you for your permission.

Second, if the WSJ publishes the opinion piece -- it's likely because its got "substance".

Third, you've not offended me. I actually enjoy making people look like idiots. I am grateful.

Jorddyn
01-12-2009, 12:13 PM
You're right. We should not discuss the pitiful financial condition of our country's largest welfare system because, really, there are much more important things. I'll wander over to one of the naked threads instead.

CrystalTears
01-12-2009, 12:15 PM
Naked threads are important! Blasphemer.

Keller
01-12-2009, 12:17 PM
http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gifGOPs Secret Plan to... (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=869950#post869950)01-12-2009 12:06 PM~ ignot

Really? Throwing a temper tantrum in the thread wasn't enough, you had to resort to every potential resource?

Take a deep breath. It'll all be okay.

g++
01-12-2009, 12:19 PM
http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gifGOPs Secret Plan to... (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=869950#post869950)01-12-2009 12:06 PM~ ignot

Really? Throwing a temper tantrum in the thread wasn't enough, you had to resort to every potential resource?

Take a deep breath. It'll all be okay.

Yah he hit me too...can one of the ladies recieving pictures of his cock check for sand?

Khariz
01-12-2009, 12:21 PM
Pos repped you two guys to offset it for giggles. Forgot to sign it.

Ignot
01-12-2009, 12:22 PM
Why can't I give you negative rep for the post? I found it to be a poor post. Isn't that what the rep system is for? Stop talking about me and continue your conversation about the article that you posted. that's what you wanted right? or are you realizing that there is nothing to talk about that hasn't been discussed a million times already.

BTW, I gave G++, you, and Jordyn neg rep which has nothing to do with my opinions of you but everything to do with your posts.

It was enjoyable to read posts about these issues when they first came out but now that they have been done to death perhaps you could venture out of your safe little financial crisis news and into something that has more substance to talk about.

NEWS FLASH WE ARE IN A FINANCIAL CRISIS! Ugh, GTFO.

Jorddyn
01-12-2009, 12:29 PM
BTW, I gave G++, you, and Jordyn neg rep which has nothing to do with my opinions of you but everything to do with your posts.

That was obviously the mature thing to do.


http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gifmy point is its already been discussed, why don't you wander over to the israel/hamas threads since that is something that is actually worth talking about ~ ignot

Holy crap. The financial situation of Social Security has been overdiscussed, but the stability and ongoing war in the Middle East HASN'T been? Where have you been for the last, I dunno, 70 years? Or 1000 years depending on how you look at it.

Besides, given my admitted lack of knowledge on Middle Eastern politics, and my somewhat better than average knowledge on financial and taxation matters, I find this thread a much more appropriate place for me to be.

In summation: You're a tool.

Oh - CT. You're right. They are incredibly important threads. I do apologize for taking my anger out on them.

g++
01-12-2009, 12:30 PM
Why can't I give you negative rep for the post? I found it to be a poor post. Isn't that what the rep system is for? Stop talking about me and continue your conversation about the article that you posted. that's what you wanted right? or are you realizing that there is nothing to talk about that hasn't been discussed a million times already.

BTW, I gave G++, you, and Jordyn neg rep which has nothing to do with my opinions of you but everything to do with your posts.

It was enjoyable to read posts about these issues when they first came out but now that they have been done to death perhaps you could venture out of your safe little financial crisis news and into something that has more substance to talk about.

NEWS FLASH WE ARE IN A FINANCIAL CRISIS! Ugh, GTFO.

http://www.vbulletin.com/

Here you can go set up your own utopian message board where nothing that does not interest you is ever discussed. There can be an entire folder dedicated to you're<See that keller?> cock. Unfortunately this is not you're message board so we will continue to discuss whatever the fuck we want. Crashing a thread to say you think its boring and then throwing negative rep at everyone who disagrees with you is infantile.

Jorddyn
01-12-2009, 12:31 PM
NEWS FLASH WE ARE IN A FINANCIAL CRISIS! Ugh, GTFO.

P.S. While the current situation of Social Security has been exacerbated by the current financial crisis, they are two extraordinarily different topics. I'm sorry you've chosen to stick your head in the sand regarding both, but really that just leaves you in prime position for the results you'll get by doing such.

Ignot
01-12-2009, 12:31 PM
Man, it sure is easy to get you guys worked up.:popcorn:

Jorddyn
01-12-2009, 12:32 PM
Man, it sure is easy to get you guys worked up.

Man, you're an idiot if you think this is worked up.

CrystalTears
01-12-2009, 12:35 PM
Man, it sure is easy to get you guys worked up.:popcorn:
Coming from the guy who gave three people negative rep?

Hey Mr. Killjoy, you didn't have to read a thread about a subject you no longer wish to discuss. Or better yet, you could have left the thread once you saw where it was heading. To stay and just <yawn> into it isn't really necessary.

By the way, I'd rather read about where my country's financial future is heading over Gaza/Isreal ongoing angst.

Ignot
01-12-2009, 12:36 PM
Hey Mr. Killjoy, you didn't have to read a thread about a subject you no longer wish to discuss. Or better yet, you could have left the thread once you saw where it was heading. To stay and just <yawn> into it isn't really necessary.

By the way, I'd rather read about where my country's financial future is heading over Gaza/Isreal ongoing angst.

But that wouldn't be any fun for me! and is the rep system that serious?

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