PETA Wants Higher Insurance Premiums For Meat Eaters

[Necromancer]

Say what you will about PETA, but they have a wicked sense of humor. The sad part is though, people actually read stuff like this and think PETA is being serious. Though, whenever people get all riled up over smokers and want to argue that smokers should pay more for health programs and such, I get pissed and remind them that eating meat makes a person far more likely to end up with heart disease and diabetes. i.e. don't be a hypocrite


http://www.wptz.com/cnn-news/17972139/detail.html

VERMONT -- People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is calling on Blue Cross Blue Shield of Vermont to raise health insurance premiums for people who eat meat, and lower the premiums for vegetarians.
PETA Wants Higher Insurance Premiums For Meat Eaters
In a letter sent Monday to Bill Milnes Jr., president of Blue Cross Blue Shield Of Vermont, PETA's Executive Director Tracy Reiman urged Blue Cross to raise rates on meat eaters because -- she claims -- heart disease, diabetes and other leading killer diseases have been conclusively linked to the consumption of meat and other animal products.

"Given the latest news about the effects of E. coli on meat-eaters -- and the mountain of evidence linking meat consumption to some of our nation's deadliest diseases -- this change will benefit Blue Cross Blue Shield's bottom line while also helping to ensure that your policyholders don't flat line," Reiman wrote.
Reiman went on to point to recent reports of an E. coli outbreak in Vermont. In October a Vermont slaughterhouse recalled a ton of ground beef after 10 cases of E. coli were traced to meat from Vermont Livestock Slaughter & Processing in Ferrisburg. The recall was voluntary.
Earlier in the month, three people were diagnosed with E. Coli in Orleans County. Health officials attributed those cases to raw milk as the source.
"As you might know, E. Coli grows in the intestines of many farmed animals. Slaughterhouses are filthy places, and when animals are eviscerated, feces often spray in every direction," Reiman wrote.
She goes on to claim that vegetarians are less prone to heart disease, certain types of cancer, diabetes and obesity. "By giving your policy holders a financial incentive to go vegetarian -- and penalizing those whose meat-based diets fuel our nation's worst health problems -- Blue Cross Blue Shield could save millions of dollars in the long run," Reiman writes.
But it doesn't appear that Blue Cross will be taking PETA's suggestion any time soon.
"Under Vermont law, we would not be allowed to vary rates based on the dietary and nutritional habits of various members," said Kevin Goddard, Blue Cross's vice president of external affairs. He did, however, say that Blue Cross is always looking to have the healthiest members possible, but "we have no information one way or the other if vegetarians are more healthy."
In September, PETA made headlines in Vermont and across the nation for asking Ben & Jerry's ice cream to use human breast milk in their ice cream, instead of cow milk. "We applaud PETA's novel approach to bringing attention to an issue, but we believe a mother's milk is best used for her child," a representative for Ben & Jerry's said at the time.

[Tea & Strumpets]

In September, PETA made headlines in Vermont and across the nation for asking Ben & Jerry's ice cream to use human breast milk in their ice cream, instead of cow milk.

LOL. Stick it to the meateaters biologically and mentally superior vegans!

[ElanthianSiren]

What study are they using to link meat to diabetes? If T1-- I"ve never read anything conclusively linking meat consumption to type 1 diabetes. If t2, it would have to be a high meat diet in combination with a high carbohydrate diet, as the hallmark of diabetes is high blood sugar. High blood sugar is not caused by meat. It's caused by carbohydrate nonmetabolism. It's the excessively high sugar levels that cause the complications of diabetes; ergo nothing to do with meat IMO.

I'm open to reading more about this though if they're actually basing this on something factual.

[CrystalTears]

Say what you will about PETA, but they have a wicked sense of humor. The sad part is though, people actually read stuff like this and think PETA is being serious. Though, whenever people get all riled up over smokers and want to argue that smokers should pay more for health programs and such, I get pissed and remind them that eating meat makes a person far more likely to end up with heart disease and diabetes. i.e. don't be a hypocriteThey're full of shit. I never take them seriously.

That said, I would gladly pay more for eating meat. Steak tastes good.

[Necromancer]

What study are they using to link meat to diabetes? If T1-- I"ve never read anything conclusively linking meat consumption to type 1 diabetes. If t2, it would have to be a high meat diet in combination with a high carbohydrate diet, as the hallmark of diabetes is high blood sugar. High blood sugar is not caused by meat. It's caused by carbohydrate nonmetabolism. It's the excessively high sugar levels that cause the complications of diabetes; ergo nothing to do with meat IMO.

I'm open to reading more about this though if they're actually basing this on something factual.

Type II Diabetes is linked to meat consumption. The WHO and UN, among other groups and university faculty, have made this connection for years. Type I Diabetes is inherited and not caused by meat consumption per se, but PCRM and the ADA have found that a raw vegan diet is as effective, and in many instances actually more effective, than medication for treating Type II Diabetes. After a few months, some people in a recent study who had Type II Diabetes actually no longer qualified as having Diabetes after switching to a raw organic vegan diet.

PETA is trying to raise awareness about that link.

[ElanthianSiren]

Type II Diabetes is linked to meat consumption. The WHO and UN, among other groups and university faculty, have made this connection for years. Type I Diabetes is inherited and not caused by meat consumption per se, but PCRM and the ADA have found that a raw vegan diet is as effective, and in many instances actually more effective, than medication for treating Type II Diabetes. After a few months, some people in a recent study who had Type II Diabetes actually no longer qualified as having Diabetes after switching to a raw organic vegan diet.

PETA is trying to raise awareness about that link.

source please. Raw organic diet sounds mainly vegetative in nature. If you remove processed carbohydrates, most type 2 diabetics won't require pills/insulin/theraputive treatment other than exercise, even if they still eat meat. Meat doesn't raise blood sugar.

edit: Removing the processed foods is something I advocate for anyone trying to treat II diabetes. As natural carbohydrates (peas, carrots, beans) are absorbed more slowly due to their fiber content, they impact blood sugar minimally. The problem with most type II diabetics is damaged receptors for insulin, which makes them succeptable to fast carbohydrates and makes it very hard for them to lose weight.

[Tolwynn]

Though, whenever people get all riled up over smokers and want to argue that smokers should pay more for health programs and such, I get pissed and remind them that eating meat makes a person far more likely to end up with heart disease and diabetes. i.e. don't be a hypocrite

Perhaps homosexuals should receive higher insurance rates as well, as they account for more HIV cases than other population segments.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#exposure

No reason you shouldn't pay a little extra for the meat you put in your mouth either, right?

:tumble:

[Necromancer]

http://natamcancer.org/page22.html

http://www.foodnavigator.com/Product-Categories/Dairy-based-ingredients/Meat-linked-to-diabetes-and-CVD-risk

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E1DC1339F932A15752C1A9639582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

http://www.pcrm.org/health/clinres/diabetes.html

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/610S

blah blah blah

[ViridianAsp]

That said, I would gladly pay more for eating meat. Steak tastes good.

Agreed, I'd pay more so I could keep eating meat...I couldn't go a day without eating meat.

[Gan]

Perhaps homosexuals should receive higher insurance rates as well, as they account for more HIV cases than other population segments.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#exposure

No reason you shouldn't pay a little extra for the meat you put in your mouth either, right?

:tumble:

/end thread

[CrystalTears]

[/URL][URL="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E1DC1339F932A15752C1A9639582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all"]http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E1DC1339F932A15752C1A9639582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all (http://natamcancer.org/page22.html)
A spokesman for the American Medical Association, however, said he had "very serious reservations" about the methods used to come to those conclusions.

The authors of the analysis, Dr. Neal D. Barnard, Dr. Andrew Nicholson and Jo Lil Howard, are all members of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, an organization in Washington that promotes vegetarianism.

[Athgo]

source please. Raw organic diet sounds mainly vegetative in nature. If you remove processed carbohydrates, most type 2 diabetics won't require pills/insulin/theraputive treatment other than exercise, even if they still eat meat. Meat doesn't raise blood sugar.

edit: Removing the processed foods is something I advocate for anyone trying to treat II diabetes. As natural carbohydrates (peas, carrots, beans) are absorbed more slowly due to their fiber content, they impact blood sugar minimally. The problem with most type II diabetics is damaged receptors for insulin, which makes them succeptable to fast carbohydrates and makes it very hard for them to lose weight.

The only link I've heard is between obesity and Type II diabetes, and a diet high in red meat will certainly contribute to obesity but so will a diet high in fat and carbohydrates. I guess we should just charge people more that eat anything but raw veggies.

[Some Rogue]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/Misc-FFS.jpg
at this whole thread.

[DeV]

They're full of shit. I never take them seriously.

That said, I would gladly pay more for eating meat. Steak tastes good.
Word.

Except I wouldn't gladly pay a penny more just to enjoy red meat. Last I checked insurance companies weren't paying people not to eat meat. This is America; we thrive on incentives, baby.

[Necromancer]

Perhaps homosexuals should receive higher insurance rates as well, as they account for more HIV cases than other population segments.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#exposure

No reason you shouldn't pay a little extra for the meat you put in your mouth either, right?

:tumble:

You completely missed my point, obviously.

And given that heterosexuals are more likely to have children, which are VERY expensive, even if I HAD been supporting having certain people pay more for insurance premiums based on lifestyle choices (which I very much was against), heterosexuals would still be paying more based on the cost of having children (which generally runs between $10,000-20,000 for the hospital visit alone- not counting prenatal care). There is also evidence that gay men (this doesn't include bi or gay women or bi men) are more prone to healthy lifestyles than straight men (are more active and eat healthier). Though I have yet to see anything on the latter that wasn't self-reported.

[Mathari]

They're full of shit. I never take them seriously.
:yeahthat: I have PETA on ignore.

[Keller]

In September, PETA made headlines in Vermont and across the nation for asking Ben & Jerry's ice cream to use human breast milk in their ice cream, instead of cow milk. "We applaud PETA's novel approach to bringing attention to an issue, but we believe a mother's milk is best used for her child," a representative for Ben & Jerry's said at the time.

Given that the women we'd use would have to be constantly pregnant/post-pardum, constantly eatting to provide the raw material for the milk, and likely very sedentary due to being hooked up to a breat pump all the time -- couldn't we also call them cows, too?

[Gelston]

Most vegetarians and vegans that I've seen look unhealthy and sickly as fuck. If eating only plants and shit is more healthy, it damn sure doesn't look like it.

[Necromancer]

Actually the PCRM study has been followed up and repeated at least twice by other organizations- with similar findings. One interesting side note for one of those studies, however, was that even when exercise was removed as a component of the study, the results still clearly demonstrated improvements.

So while exercise helps, it really was the diet change.

[CrystalTears]

There is also evidence that gay men (this doesn't include bi or gay women or bi men) are more prone to healthy lifestyles than straight men (are more active and eat healthier). Though I have yet to see anything on the latter that wasn't self-reported.
OMFG source this bullshit please before I fucking lose my mind from laughing so fucking hard at you pushing your stupid agendas.

[Necromancer]

Most vegetarians and vegans that I've seen look unhealthy and sickly as fuck. If eating only plants and shit is more healthy, it damn sure doesn't look like it.

I didn't realize that we all wore signs on our backs clearly identifying our diet choices.

[ViridianAsp]

Actually the PCRM study has been followed up and repeated at least twice by other organizations- with similar findings. One interesting side note for one of those studies, however, was that even when exercise was removed as a component of the study, the results still clearly demonstrated improvements.

So while exercise helps, it really was the diet change.

Still, even if it makes my life shorter...I'd eat meat, pay more to and I think a majority of the population would too.

I have a friend who is vegan, she doesn't look sickly at all she's very healthy looking.

[Gelston]

I didn't realize that we all wore signs on our backs clearly identifying our diet choices.

Maybe because I knew them or found out in some other way?

[Necromancer]

Your opinion on that might change if you were having to deal with serious health complications due to diabetes or heat disease (which, as a woman, you should be really concerned about). Or cancer- there's a HUGE link between meat consumption and cancer.

Your food isn't worth dying for. Especially since what you really love are the dopamine channels your brain creates to keep you eating. Your brain can do that with any food. It just takes time.

I obviously don't agree that people who eat meat should be paying more in insurance premiums or taxes or anything like that (again, neither does PETA), but I do question the rationality of knowing that what you're eating is killing you and your planet and being unwilling to change it because you want a dopamine rush. No one is saying it's easy, but it's hard to argue that it's not worth it if it keeps you alive.

[Necromancer]

Maybe because I knew them or found out in some other way?

Unrepresentative samples and skewed observation for the win!

[Gelston]

Also, if you look at the diets of the oldest living people to have lived... Yeah. You can generally eat whatever the fuck you want, as long as its a balanced diet and you have eercise. Of course if you sit around and eat cheese burgers and watch TV all day you'll get fat as fuck and have heart disease and possibly get diabetes. And there are "billions" of people throughout the world that ARE responsible enough to themselves to not put themselves in these risky categories.

People should be charged extra for being obese, not for what they ate to get there.

[Gelston]

Unrepresentative samples and skewed observation for the win!

You did see the part where I said THAT I'VE SEEN. That is PURE fact from my experiences. I don't know maybe Louisiana rabbits are fucking retards and just prone to look like Rwandans or something.

[ViridianAsp]

Your opinion on that might change if you were having to deal with serious health complications due to diabetes or heat disease (which, as a woman, you should be really concerned about). Or cancer- there's a HUGE link between meat consumption and cancer.

Your food isn't worth dying for. Especially since what you really love are the dopamine channels your brain creates to keep you eating. Your brain can do that with any food. It just takes time.

I obviously don't agree that people who eat meat should be paying more in insurance premiums or taxes or anything like that (again, neither does PETA), but I do question the rationality of knowing that what you're eating is killing you and your planet and being unwilling to change it because you want a dopamine rush. No one is saying it's easy, but it's hard to argue that it's not worth it if it keeps you alive.


Right because living longer and sacrificing my enjoyment of food, so I can be miserable sounds awesome. I have to eat everyday, it isn't like I don't try to eat vegetables ect, ect. But honestly, yeah I think you're being naive thinking people wouldn't pay more because they eat meat.

Also, you're talking to someone who makes her living cooking.

[CrystalTears]

It's called having a balanced diet with regular exercise. Eating an excess of anything, be it meat, carbs, or even vegetables, can take a toll on your body's performance.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Jemah/lolcats/funny-pictures-balogna-first-name-n.jpg

[Necromancer]

Also, if you look at the diets of the oldest living people to have lived... Yeah. You can generally eat whatever the fuck you want, as long as its a balanced diet and you have eercise. Of course if you sit around and eat cheese burgers and watch TV all day you'll get fat as fuck and have heart disease and possibly get diabetes. And there are "billions" of people throughout the world that ARE responsible enough to themselves to not put themselves in these risky categories.

People should be charged extra for being obese, not for what they ate to get there.

Yes, sitting around eating cheeseburgers is going to speed up the process. But just because eating more poison kills you faster doesn't mean that "eating poison in moderation" is the answer.

Vegetarians do actually live longer than people who eat meat. That's just a fact. (http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Vegetarians-live-longer-says-study)

At the end of the day you just have to ask yourself what in life is more important than... life. And people who say their lives aren't worth living without a particular kind of food make me sad for them. Is the rest of your life really that worthless that it pales in comparison?

What's really ironic to me is that meat eaters who are the ones being poisoned by the meat industry's actions and the FDAs complicity aren't the ones who are fighting it. The vegetarians and vegans are the ones who've been fighting the hardest to make meat healthier and to raise awareness about the health risks associated with the way meat is processed and raised in this country.

People crap all over PETA, but they forget that no one has worked as hard as PETA and its subsidiaries to clean up the meat industry to make YOUR food safer and more humane.

[Some Rogue]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/Misc-FFS.jpg
at this whole thread.
QFT GOOD SIR

[CrystalTears]

Meat is not poison, you insect.

[Gan]

I didn't realize that we all wore signs on our backs clearly identifying our diet choices.

http://phatstuff.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/phatonchair.jpg

Depends on what you mean by 'signs'.

[ViridianAsp]

http://phatstuff.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/phatonchair.jpg

Depends on what you mean by 'signs'.


You sir, win this thread.

[Necromancer]

Right because living longer and sacrificing my enjoyment of food, so I can be miserable sounds awesome. I have to eat everyday, it isn't like I don't try to eat vegetables ect, ect. But honestly, yeah I think you're being naive thinking people wouldn't pay more because they eat meat.

Also, you're talking to someone who makes her living cooking.

Again, if meat consumption is what draws the line between miserable and happy for you...I'm really sorry for you. I think if you sat down and thought it over, however, you might come to the conclusion that time with friends and family is really what makes you happy. And anything that buys you more of that is valuable. More valuable than, say, a cheeseburger.

[Gelston]

Yes, sitting around eating cheeseburgers is going to speed up the process. But just because eating more poison kills you faster doesn't mean that "eating poison in moderation" is the answer.

Vegetarians do actually live longer than people who eat meat. That's just a fact. (http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Vegetarians-live-longer-says-study)

At the end of the day you just have to ask yourself what in life is more important than... life. And people who say their lives aren't worth living without a particular kind of food make me sad for them. Is the rest of your life really that worthless that it pales in comparison?

What's really ironic to me is that meat eaters who are the ones being poisoned by the meat industry's actions and the FDAs complicity aren't the ones who are fighting it. The vegetarians and vegans are the ones who've been fighting the hardest to make meat healthier and to raise awareness about the health risks associated with the way meat is processed and raised in this country.

People crap all over PETA, but they forget that no one has worked as hard as PETA and its subsidiaries to clean up the meat industry to make YOUR food safer and more humane.

Most of my Great Grandparents and before them lived into their '90s. They all ate meat. Hmmm....

The chick from France that lived to 122 smoked until she was 117. She also drank red wine often. She was also not a vegetarian. Look at most of the super-centurians, and you will see something common. A lot of them do shit that studies have said will cause you to die faster.

[CrystalTears]

You know, it would be great if when you returned from your hiatus from the boards each time, that you'd come back with something else to discuss than gender and anti-meat discussions. It's getting fucking old.

[ElanthianSiren]

Your opinion on that might change if you were having to deal with serious health complications due to diabetes or heat disease (which, as a woman, you should be really concerned about). Or cancer- there's a HUGE link between meat consumption and cancer.

Your food isn't worth dying for. Especially since what you really love are the dopamine channels your brain creates to keep you eating. Your brain can do that with any food. It just takes time.

I obviously don't agree that people who eat meat should be paying more in insurance premiums or taxes or anything like that (again, neither does PETA), but I do question the rationality of knowing that what you're eating is killing you and your planet and being unwilling to change it because you want a dopamine rush. No one is saying it's easy, but it's hard to argue that it's not worth it if it keeps you alive.



I've had type 1 diabetes since I was 11. I never changed my meat consumption based on being told by a medical doctor I should because of diabetic complications. They simply don't make these recommendations. In the studies you list, even the ADA (who I don't agree with because they don't stress enough natural v. refined carbohydrate elimination), the non vegetarian diets seem skewed toward unhealthiness (high red meat/fat) while the vegetarian one is skewed toward healthiness. I've known vegetarians who existed on highly processed food with bad outcomes. The food purity is important, and I do agree food prepared for vegetarians is often "purer."

I stopped eating red meat because I lost the taste for it. One day, I just said this is disgusting. Ditto with pork and eventually chicken. I never liked fish unfortunately. I still eat eggs occasionally, drink milk, and I like cheese and yogurt. However, I still believe that in its most unrefined state (no hormones, which are often highly correlated with cancer), meat and dairy is fine for you and more desirable than processed carbohydrates. Again, some vegetarian diets are quite high in processed food, and I'd be interested to see a study pitting the average american refined diet with the average vegetarian refined diet.

Especially for me, I'm never going to convert over to vegetarianism, nor should most diabetics eat a diet that's high in carbohydrate. It makes blood sugar levels fluctuate too much. Unrefined is the best way I've found.

[Gan]

What about having a cheeseburger with your family and friends?

[ViridianAsp]

Again, if meat consumption is what draws the line between miserable and happy for you...I'm really sorry for you. I think if you sat down and thought it over, however, you might come to the conclusion that time with friends and family is really what makes you happy. And anything that buys you more of that is valuable. More valuable than, say, a cheeseburger.


Enjoying my food that includes meat...my ENJOYMENT of food makes you sorry for me?

I spend a lot of time with friends and family, death comes for everyone, be it two minutes from now or 10 years from now...or hell 50. Those who died early for whatever reason, will always be cherished every minute. So do yourself a favor and go die in a fire linking my treasured family and friends to your fucking cheeseburger theory.

[CrystalTears]

What about having a cheeseburger with your family and friends?
Fuck you! Have a salad and tofu!

[ViridianAsp]

Most of my Great Grandparents and before them lived into their '90s. They all ate meat. Hmmm....

Ditto on that, hell my grandfather is still up and running in his late 70's he eats meat all the time.

[Some Rogue]

I don't see many 100 yr old vegetarians...




probably because they want to die.

[CrystalTears]

Ditto on that, hell my grandfather is still up and running in his late 70's he eats meat all the time.
My poor, ailing grandfather who is 87 years old (he's dying strictly from old age), does nothing but sleep and then wake up to eat dinner which usually has some kind of meat. He refuses to eat salad. Beans, rice, meat. Yuuuum.

[ElanthianSiren]

Fuck you! Have a salad and tofu!

tofu can taste really good. If you croqu it for soup, it takes up the flavor of whatever you make it with and has a meaty texture depending on the firmness you select. It's also one of the foods that I mentioned in the "unhealthy" vegetarian diet. One of my friends lived on soy burgers, soy cheese, soy dogs, soy soy soy. His blood pressure skyrocketted. Processed foods again.

[Gan]

Fuck you! Have a salad and tofu!

*Only if you live in California.

:whistle:

[ViridianAsp]

*Only if you live in California.

:whistle:

HEY!

[Necromancer]

Type 1 Diabetes is a different beast than Type II Diabetes- as you well know. You're allowed to make your own decisions about your health, but would you wish Diabetes on anyone else? If you were told tomorrow that if you stopped eating all meat your Diabetes would go away, would you still eat meat?

That's the thing- it's a crap shoot. You don't actually know if you're going to be one of the people who is going to develop Diabetes because of your diet. But we know that if you don't eat meat, you're less likely to have diabetes (and about a million other potentially fatal conditions), so why wouldn't you just say "You know...I think I want to live"?

There is actually an interesting theory out there with some support that links milk proteins and antibodies to insulin dependent diabetes (the kind that kids get- I assume that's what you have). A recent study done on children with IDD showed that ALL of them had higher than average amounts of a particular antibody and protein in their blood. And it looks like children who aren't given cow's milk are less likely to develop IDD.

So I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that dairy isn't dangerous. (It's actually bad for for a variety of reasons)

[Gan]

HEY!

:lol:

http://omniideas.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/bullseye.jpg

[Necromancer]

And my crazy alcoholic (rehab, rehab, rehab) uncle just got diagnosed with Hep C (dead liver, dead liver, dead liver) which he has apparently had for a loooong time.

And they just told him his liver is in such great shape that there's no reason to do anything drastic for another 5-10 years.

I guess excessive alcohol consumption doesn't actually cause liver damage?

[Tea & Strumpets]

If your cheeseburger and your family were in a burning building, which one would you save?

[ViridianAsp]

If your cheeseburger and your family were in a burning building, which one would you save?

Duh, cheeseburger.

[ElanthianSiren]

There is actually an interesting theory out there with some support that links milk proteins and antibodies to insulin dependent diabetes (the kind that kids get- I assume that's what you have). A recent study done on children with IDD showed that ALL of them had higher than average amounts of a particular antibody and protein in their blood.

That's a very old theory. There's also one about vaccinations with similar underpinings, particularly with relation to the MMR vaccine. All diabetes is an interaction between environment and genes, even type 1. I honestly have no desire to be a vegetarian, as I've already said, so I hope your questions were rhetorical.

[Necromancer]

Soy doesn't actually reduce cholesterol (well it does, but not in any significant way). It turns out it's far more likely that it was the fact that people with a lot of soy in their diets were less likely to eat meat that was responsible for the cholesterol drop.

Bad news for the soy industry- they're probably going to have to stop putting those little ads on their products that say they help your heart.

[Some Rogue]

Let the family cook, more meat to eat.

[Necromancer]

That's a very old theory. There's also one about vaccinations with similar underpinings, particularly with relation to the MMR vaccine. All diabetes is an interaction between environment and genes, even type 1. I honestly have no desire to be a vegetarian, as I've already said, so I hope your questions were rhetorical.

Old theory with new evidence. Though it remains controversial.

[ViridianAsp]

And my crazy alcoholic (rehab, rehab, rehab) uncle just got diagnosed with Hep C (dead liver, dead liver, dead liver) which he has apparently had for a loooong time.

And they just told him his liver is in such great shape that there's no reason to do anything drastic for another 5-10 years.

I guess excessive alcohol consumption doesn't actually cause liver damage?

So? My alcoholic great uncle had more pancreas damage than liver because of drinking.

But alcoholism is say a little more self-destructive. Of course I know you'll rave and tell me it's the same. but eating meat doesn't impair your motor functions or reasoning abilities.

[g++]

but would you wish Diabetes on anyone else?)

I can think of one person.


If you were told tomorrow that if you stopped eating all meat your Diabetes would go away, would you still eat meat?

Who would tell someone that?


That's the thing- it's a crap shoot. You don't actually know if you're going to be one of the people who is going to develop Diabetes because of your diet. But we know that if you don't eat meat, you're less likely to have diabetes (and about a million other potentially fatal conditions), so why wouldn't you just say "You know...I think I want to live"?

You dont know if your going to be one of the people that is going to develop diabetes for no reason either. The only sure way to effectively avoid contracting diabetes is to commit suicide(I recommend sepukka) before it manifests itself anything less is a crap shoot.

[DeV]

Fuck you! Have a salad and tofu!Eating tofu is like eating flavorless toe jam. I have no idea what toe jam tastes like, don't ask.

[CrystalTears]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Jemah/lolcats/funny-pictures-cat-is-wasting-away-.jpg

[ViridianAsp]

Eating tofu is like eating flavorless toe jam. I have no idea what toe jam tastes like, don't ask.

I always likened it to eating the paste in kindergarten...though the paste is far tastier.

[Necromancer]

So? My alcoholic great uncle had more pancreas damage than liver because of drinking.

But alcoholism is say a little more self-destructive. Of course I know you'll rave and tell me it's the same. but eating meat doesn't impair your motor functions or reasoning abilities.

Not the same at all. I was merely pointing out that just because there are relatively healthy people who do X doesn't mean that X is healthy.

And yeah, I'd rather people driving on the road had a cheeseburger in hand than a flask. But I will say that at least alcohol production doesn't involve torture and dire environmental consequences. And a few cheeseburgers never helped anyone get laid. Our good friend vodka, on the other hand, has been very helpful in this regard for tens of millions.

[Mabus]

And a few cheeseburgers never helped anyone get laid.
Hah! Lies!
;)

[ViridianAsp]

Not the same at all. I was merely pointing out that just because there are relatively healthy people who do X doesn't mean that X is healthy.

And yeah, I'd rather people driving on the road had a cheeseburger in hand than a flask. But I will say that at least alcohol production doesn't involve torture and dire environmental consequences. And a few cheeseburgers never helped anyone get laid. Our good friend vodka, on the other hand, has been very helpful in this regard for tens of millions.

Yeah, I don't believe in drinking, So I wouldn't agree with that assumption and there are men out there who like their women slightly rounder.

You know, different strokes and all that.

[g++]

Hah! Lies!
;)

Someone missed menace to society

[Necromancer]

I used to hate Tofu, but as someone else pointed out, it's just about how you cook it. Frankly, meat tastes like shit too. We just know how to cook it properly to make it taste good. Ever had unseasoned hamburger? It's gross. But throw some spices, ketchup, mustard, etc. on it and suddenly you have everyone's favorite meal.

Tofu by itself is gross. But throw in some nutritional yeast, mushrooms, tomatoes, a tiny bit of tumeric, pepper, some salt, and some potatoes and you've got one hell of a breakfast.

Holy shit, I'm hungry.

[CrystalTears]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Jemah/lolcats/funny-pictures-kitten-licks-cheeseb.jpg

[Mathari]

Ever had unseasoned hamburger? It's gross.
Yes. No, it's not.

[g++]

Tofu by itself is gross. But throw in some cheese, mushrooms, tomatoes, a tiny bit of pepper, some salt, 2 pounds of ground beef and some potatoes and you've got one hell of a breakfast.

Holy shit, I'm hungry.

Fixed

[ViridianAsp]

Frankly, meat tastes like shit too.



Blasphemy! You know I think you're great. And like I tell my vegan friend who says the exact same things,


"Don't worry, I'll eat enough meat for the both of us."

[Necromancer]

psh, you're a chef. You KNOW meat tastes like nothing good on its own.

Oh my god though, seriously, I'm suddenly wishing we had tofu in my apartment right now.

(It never ceases to amaze me that I say and think such things these days- 6 years ago I would have laughed in someone's face for saying that)

[ViridianAsp]

psh, you're a chef. You KNOW meat tastes like nothing good on its own.

Oh my god though, seriously, I'm suddenly wishing we had tofu in my apartment right now.

(It never ceases to amaze me that I say and think such things these days- 6 years ago I would have laughed in someone's face for saying that)

Oh my god, you've obviously never had ham...or bacon.

[Gelston]

I have no problem eating plain steak off the grill. It tastes fine to me with or without spices.

I've eaten raw steak before, it was pretty good too.

[Mabus]

And like I tell my vegan friend who says the exact same things,

I tell mine:
"There is nothing better then a dolphin steak in the evening, unless it is baby seal brains for breakfast."

[ViridianAsp]

I have no problem eating plain steak off the grill. It tastes fine to me with or without spices.

I've eaten raw steak before, it was pretty good too.

Ditto on that, a good steak only needs to be medium rare, no spices.

[ViridianAsp]

I tell mine:
"There is nothing better then a dolphin steak in the evening, unless it is baby seal brains for breakfast."

It seriously bugs her when I say it too.

[CrystalTears]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Jemah/lolcats/funny-pictures-your-cheeseburgers-r.jpg

[Necromancer]

Oh my god, you've obviously never had ham...or bacon.

Erm, I don't like to destroy dreams, but bacon is cured and seasoned with artificial flavors. So's ham =(

But vegan bacon (and sausage) is actually really awesome. Why? Because most of the flavor is artificial anyway- so it's easily carried over to soy. Honestly, so much of what we eat is just factory-produced flavor and aroma that they could make a sock taste like bacon if they wanted. It's sort of scary and sort of awesome all at the same time.

[CrystalTears]

Do you realize that the artificial ingredients and added sodium to give your "awesome" food flavor does more damage than meat does?

[ViridianAsp]

Erm, I don't like to destroy dreams, but bacon is cured and seasoned with artificial flavors. So's ham =(

But vegan bacon (and sausage) is actually really awesome. Why? Because most of the flavor is artificial anyway- so it's easily carried over to soy. Honestly, so much of what we eat is just factory-produced flavor and aroma that they could make a sock taste like bacon if they wanted. It's sort of scary and sort of awesome all at the same time.


Yes, I know bacon is cured. but still, nothing will ever taste TRULY like bacon, other than bacon. You can't make a sock taste like bacon...unless it's a sock made out of bacon.

[Necromancer]

Do you realize that the artificial ingredients and added sodium to give your "awesome" food flavor does more damage than meat does?

Since you're clearly in dire need of attention- source please?

[CrystalTears]

Not until you source your homosexuals are healthier than heterosexuals crap.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Jemah/lolcats/funny-pictures-cat-discovers-that-t.jpg

[Necromancer]

Dude, go try out Morningstar Farms Sausage patties.

First time I had them I freaked out, actually grabbed the box out of the trash can (a friend gave it to me) and scoured the ingredients list. I was so sure she had made a mistake and given me actual sausage.

[ViridianAsp]

Excuse me, what? Homosexuals are healthier than Heterosexuals? Oh god link please? I want to see this nonsense.

[crb]

Type II Diabetes is linked to meat consumption. The WHO and UN, among other groups and university faculty, have made this connection for years. Type I Diabetes is inherited and not caused by meat consumption per se, but PCRM and the ADA have found that a raw vegan diet is as effective, and in many instances actually more effective, than medication for treating Type II Diabetes. After a few months, some people in a recent study who had Type II Diabetes actually no longer qualified as having Diabetes after switching to a raw organic vegan diet.

PETA is trying to raise awareness about that link.
Dear Jesse, ye of science challenged mind.

Correlation != causation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation)

Obesity is linked to diabetes. Eating foods high in saturated fats is linked to obesity. Meat is high in saturated fat.

Saying meat causes diabetes is as much a logical leap as saying

Jesse likes carrots, I like carrots, therefor, I must be queer.

But you know what, why not just have medically underwritten health insurance? If you have high cholesterol, your rates will be higher, and animal-murderers on average will have higher cholesterol than plant-murderers. However, by actually looking at individual risks instead of ASSuming all people who do X have Y condition, what you don't do is punish the meat eating marathon runner, and reward the diabetic fruit-juice-all-day-long-drinking vegan.

Of course, good luck reconciling medically underwritten health insurance with your delicate liberal sensibilities. I know you've bitched about it before.

[Necromancer]

OMG I Just found out that in Fable II- feeding your character meat earns evil points.

Has PETA gone into the video game business?

[Necromancer]

I said there was evidence for it, but I also stated that the only stuff I'd ever seen were self-reported. Which means that gay men were saying "Oh yeah, I totally work out five times a week and watch my diet!" versus straight men who were saying things like "Gym...gym...I KNOW that word. I swear I do.."

i.e. I'm not entirely convinced

Some research was done on the issue when insurance companies were arguing against domestic partnership benefits because they were afraid that adverse selection would take hold, and that gay men would all run out and become DP'd with the first HIV positive person they met to get them health insurance. So some organizations (HRC, NGLTF) tried to come up with evidence that gay men were actually healthier, on average, than their heterosexual counterparts. Again, it seemed a little *too* convenient. But, it's evidence nonetheless. Like all evidence, however, it's up for debate.

[ViridianAsp]

OMG I Just found out that in Fable II- feeding your character meat earns evil points.

Has PETA gone into the video game business?

YES, now whats this about my being hetero is unhealthy? Don't tell me you went there..

[crb]

Since you're clearly in dire need of attention- source please?
Google "hydrolized soy protein" ftw.

Or just read here:

http://www.deliciousorganics.com/controversies/soy.htm

[ViridianAsp]

I said there was evidence for it, but I also stated that the only stuff I'd ever seen were self-reported. Which means that gay men were saying "Oh yeah, I totally work out five times a week and watch my diet!" versus straight men who were saying things like "Gym...gym...I KNOW that word. I swear I do.."

i.e. I'm not entirely convinced

My heterosexual boyfriend trains and competes in cyclecross races he isn't unhealthy. Trust me.

[CrystalTears]

I said there was evidence for it, but I also stated that the only stuff I'd ever seen were self-reported. Which means that gay men were saying "Oh yeah, I totally work out five times a week and watch my diet!" versus straight men who were saying things like "Gym...gym...I KNOW that word. I swear I do.."

i.e. I'm not entirely convinced
If you don't have evidence, then don't bring it up. What was it you said to Gelston? Oh yeah...

Unrepresentative samples and skewed observation for the win!

[Necromancer]

Go back and read what I actually wrote instead of just jumping all over someone's skewed summary please.

1. Tolwynn tries to argue that homosexuals should pay more in insurance premiums is meat eaters should pay more (to which I replied that I, and PETA, didn't actually support higher premiums for meat eaters. I think that's wrong)

2. I pointed out that I never argued as such but called his own study in question because A. heterosexuals have higher costs due to childbirth AND that B. there was some evidence that homosexual men might, on average, be healthier than heterosexual men- though I had my doubts.

3. Crystaltears (being supreme board troll that she is) posted a bunch of pictures in lieu of an actual point (which I ignored since I normally ignore her posts), and then said that artificial flavors were worse than meat (which ones? why? in which ways?)

4. Upon being asked to provide any evidence, said board troll got defiant "NO! YOU MUST PROVE YOUR EVIDENCE!", citing minor point that I made and (mostly) dismissed several posts up.

5. Others buy into CT's board trolldom and start harping on it.

6. baby jesus cries

[Mabus]

6. baby jesus cries
Maybe he wants a cheeseburger?
;)

[g++]

Maybe he wants a cheeseburger?
;)

He was a known fish torturer

[CrystalTears]

I really have to search for you sources that artificial ingredients and coloring are bad for you, which is why people are working towards making sure there are more natural ingredients in food? Really?

I think some people are enjoying the cat pictures more than your propaganda. Just a guess, much like your POV on the subject.

[Necromancer]

No, you argued that they're WORSE than meat. No one ever argued that they didn't have health consequences. And if you don't really care about my POV, why the hell are you even in this thread? Oh right, you're like PB but armed with fewer facts (no small feat)

And you want propoganda:

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=chew_on_this&Player=wm

http://www.meat.org/


PETA: Mastering the art of making you feel guilty for being alive. (Not that I don't totally agree with the video, but DAMN)

[ViridianAsp]

I'm not jumping on her bandwagon, but seriously, I've known gay guys who are totally out of shape and heterosexuals like my boyfriend who train away to compete in races.

And I love meat, I'm sorry Jesse but I will defend meat until the day I die, which from what you say is in the very near future, so I might as well enjoy it.

[CrystalTears]

There are tons of doctors who have stated that eating meat in a balanced diet is actually good for your health, and that people who have an axe to grind by trying to get them to be vegetarians have not being able to make a perfect link of eating meat to be generally bad for you.

Artificial sweetners, ingredients, and colorings have been linked to cancer, migraines, depression, birth defects, infertility, thyroid problems and weight gain. For some the body doesn't even know what to do with these substances and stores them as fat. In some cases they may even cause you to have more cravings and cause even further weight gain.

crb also linked how soy isn't necessarily a good substitute either as you need to eat it in moderation as much as meat.

[Necromancer]

Erm don't watch the meat.org video. I'm watching it now. It's hard to watch.

[Necromancer]

There are tons of doctors who have stated that eating meat in a balanced diet is actually good for your health.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCMzjJjuxQI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyhvHB62ph8&NR=1

[g++]

I'm not jumping on her bandwagon, but seriously, I've known gay guys who are totally out of shape and heterosexuals like my boyfriend who train away to compete in races.

And I love meat, I'm sorry Jesse but I will defend meat until the day I die, which from what you say is in the very near future, so I might as well enjoy it.

Yah I really dont buy any of this. I know plenty of vegetarians than sit around shoving chips and salsa in their mouths all day losing muscle mass and turning into fat tubs of shit. Its not like everyone who is on a vegetarians diet is shoving legumes in their mouths while they do pull ups and its not like all people who enjoy a steak now and then are gorging on cheetos and lieng perfectly still to make sure it all turns too fat. As usual everyone is trying to make broad generalizations that are essentially worthless in any context.

[Mathari]

And you want propoganda:

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=chew_on_this&Player=wm
So I figured I'd give you and them the benefit of the doubt and watch this video. I got to their alleged "Reason #3" and just LOL'd. "Eating meat and dairy makes you fat." That they would include such an easily falsified generalization, without offering any support for it, as one of their main reasons for going vegetarian indicates something negative about their ability to rationally defend their position(s). There are reasons I had (and have, again) PETA on ignore.

[Mathari]

So I figured I'd give you and them the benefit of the doubt and watch this video. I got to their alleged "Reason #3" and just LOL'd. "Eating meat and dairy makes you fat." That they would include such an easily falsified generalization, without offering any support for it, as one of their main reasons for going vegetarian indicates something negative about their ability to rationally defend their position(s). There are reasons I had (and have, again) PETA on ignore.
ROFL... Reason #5: "Because in every package of chicken, there's a little poop." You can't make this stuff up.

[Necromancer]

Actually, meat and dairy represent the US's biggest source of bad fat. It's completely justified and backed up by research (albeit an eggageration to say it makes you fat)

Anyway, that first video was just funny because you walk out being like "Oh my god, I'M SORRY!". PETA knows guilt like the Catholic Church knows guilt. (i.e. I was wryly teasing PETA as much as anything)

But if you actually want to watch something I recommend- the second video. My whole philosophy is that if you can justify killing animals the way we do, you should be able to watch a video like that and say "Yes, I still agree with this". But don't watch it if you're squeamish. It's pretty bad. I actually shut it off half way through- I don't need to see that, I already agree.

[Necromancer]

ROFL... Reason #5: "Because in every package of chicken, there's a little poop." You can't make this stuff up.

That part was pretty funny. I don't think people realize that PETA has a sense of humor- it sort of floors them. But if you get that, a lot of what they say and do suddenly makes a lot more sense. They intentionally inject humor and irony into the things they do to balance things out a bit. So it's not all doom and gloom. Whether or not they're successful is up for debate.

[Mathari]

But if you actually want to watch something I recommend- the second video. My whole philosophy is that if you can justify killing animals the way we do, you should be able to watch a video like that and say "Yes, I still agree with this". But don't watch it if you're squeamish. It's pretty bad. I actually shut it off half way through- I don't need to see that, I already agree.
I'll agree that this video is much stronger. If there's any good argument for vegetarianism, this sort of thing is a major part of (if not the only part of) it. The other stuff, though, muddies the waters.

[CrystalTears]

I don't have a problem with vegetarians, I honestly don't. If that's how you want to eat, that's fine. But it's when I get lectured about how bad my food is for me that I get defensive because there really is nothing concrete that proves that meat is automatically bad for you when part of a balanced diet.

It's difficult, and expensive, to live as a healthy vegetarian in order to get all the proper nutrients and nutrition. If you can do it for your own reasons, that's fine. Just don't tell me how to live my life, since I don't tell you how to live yours.

[Necromancer]

Ironically though, it's the second video that is more likely to turn people off. That's why PETA makes videos like the first. It's light hearted, is sort of tongue-in-cheek, and it's easier to watch. The second video is what people will literally turn off and stay away from because it's so hard to watch.

When PETA says things like "Oh it makes you fat" and "it has poop in it!", they're trying to be light-hearted about serious facts. Yes, there's feces in your meat. Yes, increased meat consumption is considered to be a major contributor to obesity in the US (not a sudden lack of exercise- don't confuse the lack of a solution to something with the cause). But when you're showing bloody, beaten bodies of animals...you have to find some way to balance the message while still getting the point across. Thus instead of saying "The FDA has no problem with the fact that there is feces in your food", they say "Eww, there's poop!". It's all marketing stuff.

[crb]

I don't have a problem with vegetarians, I honestly don't. If that's how you want to eat, that's fine. But it's when I get lectured about how bad my food is for me that I get defensive because there really is nothing concrete that proves that meat is automatically bad for you when part of a balanced diet.

It's difficult, and expensive, to live as a healthy vegetarian in order to get all the proper nutrients and nutrition. If you can do it for your own reasons, that's fine. Just don't tell me how to live my life, since I don't tell you how to live yours.
Thats how I feel about religious people. Worship god or allah or whomever all you want, but you start trying to push me into your beliefs and I have a problem.

And yes, the way so many liberals treat environmentalism as religion makes this analogy ever so apt.

[crb]

the only meat jesse will eat (http://www.sjc.com/manbeef/)

[CrystalTears]

Thats how I feel about religious people. Worship god or allah or whomever all you want, but you start trying to push me into your believes and I have a problem.

And yes, the way so many liberals treat environmentalism as religion makes this analogy ever so apt.
People keep saying that others push religion down their throats, and yet, as far as I can remember, no member of this forum has ever tried to convince someone that their religion is the best. Yet here we have Necronancy who takes every opportunity he can to promote vegetarian lifestyles and that eating meat will fucking kill you.

I take more offense to this type of propaganda than religion, personally.

[Necromancer]

sorry that you don't like being told that meat is unhealthy- well not really sorry honestly.

Look, you can throw facts back and forth, mince words, play rhetorical battles, but this is how I look at it:

We've got a LOT of research linking meat consumption with cancer, diabetes, heart disease, impotence, etc.

When's the last time you saw a study outlining the dangers of eating green beens? The last time you had huge health warnings about having too much fruit in your diet? A study that said "Hey folks, cut back on your vegetable intake, it may be causing cancer!"

There's a reason why we don't have debates like this over vegetables and fruits. There's nothing to debate.

But with meat, there's a LOT to debate. Because there IS evidence that it's unhealthy. I think you're actually hitting home on the real reason why we have debates on this CT: it's often less about whether or not meat is actually unhealthy (most of us, whether we say it out loud or not, at least recognize that you can't just fill yourself up excessive amounts of meat and expect to be healthy- unlike fruits and veggies), it's about people not liking to hear that what they eat is bad.

15 years ago it was considered obnoxious to tell a smoker they were killing themselves. Now it's obnoxious to tell a meat eater that. We'll see where things stand 15 years from now.

[Mabus]

Yes, there's feces in your meat.
I was just going to post "speak for yourself", but thought I would ask you where you think the E-coli on all your precious vegetables is coming from?

It ain't parthenogenesis.

[CrystalTears]

We've got a LOT of research linking meat consumption with cancer, diabetes, heart disease, impotence, etc. In unhealthy quantities. I'm not sure how many times this needs to be pointed out. It's not so black and white as to say that meat is bad. It's not.


When's the last time you saw a study outlining the dangers of eating green beens? The last time you had huge health warnings about having too much fruit in your diet? A study that said "Hey folks, cut back on your vegetable intake, it may be causing cancer!"

There's a reason why we don't have debates like this over vegetables and fruits. There's nothing to debate. True, you won't hear that you need to cut down on vegetables, but if that's solely what you eat, you will be told that you need protein to live better. You can't live on lettuce and beans alone.


But with meat, there's a LOT to debate. Because there IS evidence that it's unhealthy. I think you're actually hitting home on the real reason why we have debates on this CT: it's often less about whether or not meat is actually unhealthy (most of us, whether we say it out loud or not, at least recognize that you can't just fill yourself up excessive amounts of meat and expect to be healthy- unlike fruits and veggies), it's about people not liking to hear that what they eat is bad. It's not as bad as you proclaim it is, and that's what people debate.

[Necromancer]

Erm the fact that E. Coli infection is actually dangerous is largely a direct result of the N-glycolylneuraminic acid that we get from meat and dairy.

The human body doesn't produce it on its own- it comes from animal products, and the toxin that certain strains of E. Coli produce (the dangerous ones) specifically targets cells that have been exposed to N-glycolylneuraminic acid. That's what makes it so dangerous.

Interestingly enough, it also seems to be at least one of the causes of increased cancer rates among meat eaters. The introduction of that chemical into our bodies is a bad thing that forces our bodies to produce antibodies (which may actually cause health problems themselves- stupid immune system).

[Necromancer]

True, you won't hear that you need to cut down on vegetables, but if that's solely what you eat, you will be told that you need protein to live better. You can't live on lettuce and beans alone.


Factually incorrect. There are no risks of protein deficiencies present in vegan diets that aren't present in other diets. You don't need animal products for protein, and vegans/vegetarians don't have to make extra efforts to get enough protein. In a survey of Americans done a few years back, none of the groups had deficiencies in protein- all of them had an excess of protein.

When's the last time you heard of someone who wasn't starving who had a protein deficiency? (You haven't)

B12, on the other hand, is a different issue. But it's created by microbes- not animals. It's just that animals store it, so by eating them humans can get their B12. But it's not by any stretch of the imagination something you only get from eating animals.

[Methais]

Again, if meat consumption is what draws the line between miserable and happy for you...I'm really sorry for you.

Doesn't your meat consumption (cock) draw the line between you being miserable and happy? Should I be sorry for you too?

[Ignot]

There must be no upside to eating meat. We have only been doing it for...oh i don't know....ALL OF HUMANITY.

[Necromancer]

Doesn't your meat consumption (cock) draw the line between you being miserable and happy? Should I be sorry for you too?

Only if the cock is small.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Let's be honest, Necromancer. It's obvious that the only reason you are a vegan is so you can tell people about it, and it's also obvious that you think it makes you superior. I'm pretty sure there is no one in your life that you are even vaguely associated with that you haven't told that you are a vegan.

Regardless, your arguments and evidence are completely retarded. You're also preachier than a Baptist minister. You talk out of your ass with an authoritative tone, which is part of what makes you funny.

[Mabus]

Erm the fact that E. Coli infection is actually dangerous is largely a direct result of the N-glycolylneuraminic acid that we get from meat and dairy.

The human body doesn't produce it on its own- it comes from animal products, and the toxin that certain strains of E. Coli produce (the dangerous ones) specifically targets cells that have been exposed to N-glycolylneuraminic acid. That's what makes it so dangerous.

Interestingly enough, it also seems to be at least one of the causes of increased cancer rates among meat eaters. The introduction of that chemical into our bodies is a bad thing that forces our bodies to produce antibodies (which may actually cause health problems themselves- stupid immune system).
That's all fine and dandy, but the fact of the matter is:
"Yes, there's feces in your vegetables."

One of the identified strains on contaminated vegetables was of a distinctly human variety. So while I may get a little cow pie in my burger, you are getting Julio's lunch from yesterday in your salad.

Bon Appétit!

[Parkbandit]

Ok.. let's hijack this thread destined for Stupidsville and pull a u-turn.

The BEST cheeseburger you ever had?

Personally, I've had 3 really good ones.. so the ranking is as follows for me:

3) Margaritaville - Cheeseburger in Paradise (http://www.margaritaville.com/)
2) Tally Ho's - Black Angus Burger (http://www.tallyhopub.com)
1) Green Iquana - Cheesiest cheeseburger (http://www.greeniguana.com/)

[Martaigne]

I just read this whole thread, and since I have nothing to contribute other than "I like meat and won't stop eating it" all I have to say is this...

Jesse, you're a vegetarian homosexual?

So... does that mean you don't swallow?

[Necromancer]

Lots of things have health consequences, agreed. Sometimes it's hard to even know what you should be listening to.

But most of what we have health warnings about are synthetic or meat products. Again, no real issue with excess consumption of fruit and veggies (because we're herbivores- but that's a different thread).

I think the real issue isn't that everything has health consequences- it's that everything has potential health benefits. THAT'S what clouds up the debate. Just because something is bad for you doesn't mean it doesn't also have good things. Meat, for example, can absolutely provide needed nutrients (as can fermented grapes, right?), and that's why the concept of meat being unhealthy seems to fly in the face of logic for so many people. But anything digestable can have health benefits. And our bodies, like most animals, can digest a LOT. Acids aren't all that picky at the end of the day. That doesn't mean we should be filling ourselves with anything we can digest.

And no one, including PETA, actually expects insurance companies to increase premiums for people who eat meat (or engage in other unhealthy lifestyle choices). They were trying to highlight the link between meat consumption and some of the leading causes of death in this country.

[Necromancer]

That's all fine and dandy, but the fact of the matter is:
"Yes, there's feces in your vegetables."

One of the identified strains on contaminated vegetables was of a distinctly human variety. So while I may get a little cow pie in my burger, you are getting Julio's lunch from yesterday in your salad.

Bon Appétit!

That's actually....very true grin

[droit]

I was just going to post "speak for yourself", but thought I would ask you where you think the E-coli on all your precious vegetables is coming from?

It ain't parthenogenesis.

Just as a quick aside (and only because I find the topic fascinating), you probably mean spontaneous generation, not parthenogenesis. Parthenogenesis is an asexual mode of reproduction in which a female basically clones herself, her eggs developing without fertilization by a male. Spontaneous generation, on the other hand, is the theory that living organisms can be derived from nonliving organic matter. This theory persisted as scientific truth all the way from Aristotle until the early 19th century.

That is all! Proceed.

[Parkbandit]

Five Guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Guys). Best burgers I've ever had, anywhere in the world I've been. I can't pass up a chance to promote them. If they ever go public with stock, I'm investing. DELICIOUS.

They have my vote for best all around place for burgers and fries.. but the other actual burgers I listed are far superior in terms of taste. If I'm in need of a burger quickly, 5 guys is the place I'll head to though.

[Necromancer]

Five Guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Guys). Best burgers I've ever had, anywhere in the world I've been. I can't pass up a chance to promote them. If they ever go public with stock, I'm investing. DELICIOUS.

OMG I totally thought it was purely a DC thing. I used to walk by it every day on my way to the Georgetown Library (I used to walk from Adams Morgan to GU every day to do research. I were healthy (and sweaty) like that)

[Mabus]

Just as a quick aside (and only because I find the topic fascinating), you probably mean spontaneous generation, not parthenogenesis. Parthenogenesis is an asexual mode of reproduction in which a female basically clones herself, her eggs developing without fertilization by a male. Spontaneous generation, on the other hand, is the theory that living organisms can be derived from nonliving organic matter. This theory persisted as scientific truth all the way from Aristotle until the early 19th century.

That is all! Proceed.
You are correct!

I don't know, to many years of a song by Shriekback (Nemesis) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovH46-o0rLw) stuck in the back of my mind.
"Priests and cannibals, prehistoric animals, everybody's happy when the dead come home! Big black nemesis, parthenogenesis, No one move a muscle as the dead come home."

Must of been the "Necromancer" name.

I stand corrected.

[LMingrone]

Ok.. let's hijack this thread destined for Stupidsville and pull a u-turn.

The BEST cheeseburger you ever had?


1. Heart-attack Burger (everything you could imagine on a burger)
2. Rodeo Burger (Burger, bacon, onion rings, A-1)

Edit: Oh, and cheese, lots of it.

[crb]

sorry that you don't like being told that meat is unhealthy- well not really sorry honestly.

Look, you can throw facts back and forth, mince words, play rhetorical battles, but this is how I look at it:

We've got a LOT of research linking meat consumption with cancer, diabetes, heart disease, impotence, etc.

When's the last time you saw a study outlining the dangers of eating green beens? The last time you had huge health warnings about having too much fruit in your diet? A study that said "Hey folks, cut back on your vegetable intake, it may be causing cancer!"

There's a reason why we don't have debates like this over vegetables and fruits. There's nothing to debate.

But with meat, there's a LOT to debate. Because there IS evidence that it's unhealthy. I think you're actually hitting home on the real reason why we have debates on this CT: it's often less about whether or not meat is actually unhealthy (most of us, whether we say it out loud or not, at least recognize that you can't just fill yourself up excessive amounts of meat and expect to be healthy- unlike fruits and veggies), it's about people not liking to hear that what they eat is bad.

15 years ago it was considered obnoxious to tell a smoker they were killing themselves. Now it's obnoxious to tell a meat eater that. We'll see where things stand 15 years from now.
There are a lot of beneficial nutrients you can get from meat moreso than from vegetables.

I think the important thing is to have a balanced diet.

Fruits, vegetables, and reasonable portions of lean meat.

The thing is Jesse, you're coming from a health angle now, but typically in the past you've come from a "meat is murder" angle. Which I think is still your game, you're just trying to disguise it under this current discussion.

[crb]

Ruby Tuesday's buffalo smokehouse burger, if they still have it, is fucking awesome. Cheddar cheese, bison, onion straws, toasted & buttered bun.

1000 calories of goodness.

I really like the burgers I make at home though, bison seasoned with garlic, worcestire (I know, I spell it wrong) sauce, oregano. topped with carmelized basalmic onions and sharp cheddar.

Yes, I eat bison, it is healthier. I don't eat ground beef if I can help it. I only eat lean cuts of beaf (tenderloin for example) and bison for red meat.

[Keller]

Ok.. let's hijack this thread destined for Stupidsville and pull a u-turn.

The BEST cheeseburger you ever had?


There is no competition.

The Father's Office Burger. Hands-down the best cheeseburger anyone will ever have. Period. Nothing will come close.

Here is a review of the restaurant/burger w/ pictures: http://whatstoeatla.blogspot.com/2007/08/fathers-officethat-burger-is-definitely.html

Here is a "copy-cat" of the recipe: http://meemoskitchen.blogspot.com/2008/06/office-burger.html

[Keller]

I really like the burgers I make at home though, bison seasoned with garlic, worcestire (I know, I spell it wrong) sauce, oregano. topped with carmelized basalmic onions and sharp cheddar.


See my post above if you like the burger you make, I promise you will love that one.

[CrystalTears]

Five Guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Guys). Best burgers I've ever had, anywhere in the world I've been. I can't pass up a chance to promote them. If they ever go public with stock, I'm investing. DELICIOUS.
Agreed! Best burgers on the fucking planet. And their fries... ooh!

[Shari]

Dude, you KNOW the heads of PETA just sit around in a circle on those kindergarden-sized plastic chairs, drinking beer and brainstorming the newest fucked-up way to save animals.

Cracks me up.

[Stretch]

Whenever I'm around vegans / vegetarians who suffer from bad cases of smug, I make sure to eat two to three times as much dead animal as I usually do.

[Keller]

Whenever I'm around vegans / vegetarians who suffer from bad cases of smug, I make sure to eat two to three times as much dead animal as I usually do.

Step up your game.

Eat them live.

[FNLN]

Five Guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Guys). Best burgers I've ever had, anywhere in the world I've been. I can't pass up a chance to promote them. If they ever go public with stock, I'm investing. DELICIOUS.

Empty quotin' dis.

[thefarmer]

Five Guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Guys).

^

Also agreed on the Smokehouse burger, though the bison must be new, because I don't remember it always being that way.

The BBQ BURGER WITH BACON & CHEDDAR* from Uno's (http://www.unos.com/newmenu/sandwiches.html)

Cookout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook_Out_(restaurant)) also has some great burgers. Being able to get a burger at 2-3am (and not some worthless 'fastfood' piece of shit FTW.

[g++]

Whenever I'm around vegans / vegetarians who suffer from bad cases of smug, I make sure to eat two to three times as much dead animal as I usually do.

Just order veal, you dont even have to fill up.

[ViridianAsp]

Just order veal, you dont even have to fill up.

The evil of this meat makes it that much more delicious too.

[Hulkein]

Though, whenever people get all riled up over smokers and want to argue that smokers should pay more for health programs and such, I get pissed and remind them that eating meat makes a person far more likely to end up with heart disease and diabetes. i.e. don't be a hypocrite

Without even addressing PETA I will say this, smoking has almost zero benefits (I'm not even going to give you it "calms you down" because that is only after you are already addicted to nicotine and need it to help you calm down). Eating meat has plenty of benefits. Cheap sustenance. Not everyone can afford (financially and/or physically) to live a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle.

It's not being hypocritical.

[diethx]

Perhaps homosexuals should receive higher insurance rates as well, as they account for more HIV cases than other population segments.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#exposure

No reason you shouldn't pay a little extra for the meat you put in your mouth either, right?

:tumble:

I know Gan(?) already said it, but LOL, /endthread.


OMFG source this bullshit please before I fucking lose my mind from laughing so fucking hard at you pushing your stupid agendas.

:yeahthat: Don't hold your breath though.


Ditto on that, hell my grandfather is still up and running in his late 70's he eats meat all the time.

My grandfather died last winter at the age of 97, of simply old age. Except for the last few months of his life where he basically was in his terminal drop, he was the epitome of health for someone that age. He ate meat his whole life and drank one alcoholic drink (screwdriver or some other sort of vodka drink) and walked every day. He was also skinny his whole life.


Eating tofu is like eating flavorless toe jam. I have no idea what toe jam tastes like, don't ask.

Tofu is awesome in hot n sour soup... otherwise i'd say you're 100% correct.


Ever had unseasoned hamburger? It's gross.

Maybe in your opinion. On many occasions i've browned ground beef with no seasoning and eaten it for a meal with some veggies, and it was fucking awesome.


Go back and read what I actually wrote instead of just jumping all over someone's skewed summary please.

1. Tolwynn tries to argue that homosexuals should pay more in insurance premiums is meat eaters should pay more (to which I replied that I, and PETA, didn't actually support higher premiums for meat eaters. I think that's wrong)

Are you serious? Tolwynn said what he did (obviously JOKINGLY) in response to your remark comparing cigarette smokers and meat eaters and how meat eaters should pay more in insurance than smokers because meat causes more heart disease and diabetes than smoking.

[g++]

Wow so you were born when your grandfather was 70? Either he or your parents had kids old huh?

[diethx]

Yeah, my dad was 45 when I was born (mom was 30), he turned 72 in June. And he's so damn healthy. AND he looks about 55 (in the skin, etc.) except for the grey hair. I've inherited super genes, no foolin'! I complain now that at 27 I still look 17, but i'll appreciate it when i'm 40.

[oldanforgotten]

PETA is a domestic terrorist organization. That's all anyone need know.

[Proxy]

Saw this bumper sticker on some chicks Scion today.

"Save a Cow, Eat a Vegan"

Then I immediately thought to my self , "Hmm calves ARE kosher......"

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

The evil of this meat makes it that much more delicious too.

Yes.

On topic, I was a vegan for a few years due to my mom making the choice to go vegan and pushing it on the rest of the family. I would never, ever do it again unless there was nothing to eat but vegetables. Don't get me wrong, I love veggies and eat a diet of 70% + vegetables, but I want meat too.

[Alfster]

P.E.T.A.

Pretty excellent tasting animals.

[Clove]

Don't get me wrong, I love veggies and eat a diet of 70% + vegetables, but I want meat too.Who doesn't?

[Proxy]

I'm trying to die young, so I generaly eat 40%-60% meat in my diet.

[Clove]

Hmmmm well for starters simply eating meat doesn't cause heart disease, though overconsumption of it can contribute to it. Just like overconsumption of high-fructose corn syrup can contribute to diabetes. Amazing that improper diets are unhealthy- regardless of the food-source.

[Clove]

P.E.T.A.

Pretty excellent tasting animals.People Eating Tasty Animals.

[Warriorbird]

I think my main problem with PETA is that... in America at least... soybean and corn farmers cause infinitely more devastation to the natural world.

That and the total pass they give high fructose corn syrup.

[Stanley Burrell]

I mean, technically, their women -- the ones with vaginas should have severe anorexia and low enough self-esteem so as not to dismiss them immediately. Let's be fair, people.

[Parkbandit]

I think my main problem with PETA is that... in America at least... soybean and corn farmers cause infinitely more devastation to the natural world.

That and the total pass they give high fructose corn syrup.

:rofl:

I had to quote this post, simply because it was too funny.

"My main problem with PETA is the free pass Americans give high frutose corn syrup"...

[Keller]

:rofl:

I had to quote this post, simply because it was too funny.

"My main problem with PETA is the free pass Americans give high frutose corn syrup"...

Is that what he said?

[Warriorbird]

Not at all. It explains a lot though.

[Keller]

Not at all. It explains a lot though.

Maybe he should post himself a picture.

[TheRunt]

Erm, I don't like to destroy dreams, but bacon is cured and seasoned with artificial flavors. So's ham =(

But vegan bacon (and sausage) is actually really awesome. Why? Because most of the flavor is artificial anyway- so it's easily carried over to soy. Honestly, so much of what we eat is just factory-produced flavor and aroma that they could make a sock taste like bacon if they wanted. It's sort of scary and sort of awesome all at the same time.

Depends on where you get your bacon and ham. Cured yes artificial nope. When I make my own theres nothing artificial in it at all. And the place I buy it at when I don't have the time to do it myself doesn't use artificial flavors either.

[Warriorbird]

Joel Salatin type stuff would probably just explode Necromancer's mind.

[Gan]

I'm having a burger for lunch.


MOOO!

[Mabus]

Depends on where you get your bacon and ham. Cured yes artificial nope. When I make my own theres nothing artificial in it at all. And the place I buy it at when I don't have the time to do it myself doesn't use artificial flavors either.
Mmmm, sea salt and hickory smoke.

Bacon....

[Necromancer]

I'm having a burger for lunch.


MOOO!

I had a burger for lunch two days ago. Mmmm...yummy black bean burgers.

[Warriorbird]

How many animals died for those beans?

[Necromancer]

So far the count is up to zero.

If you haven't had a vegan black bean burger, you're missing out. They're fucking awesome.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

So far the count is up to zero.

If you haven't had a vegan black bean burger, you're missing out. They're fucking awesome.

I have had one.

I prefer turkey burgers with sharp cheddar cheese and avocado slices on top.

[Kyra231]

Most of my Great Grandparents and before them lived into their '90s. They all ate meat. Hmmm....

The chick from France that lived to 122 smoked until she was 117. She also drank red wine often. She was also not a vegetarian. Look at most of the super-centurians, and you will see something common. A lot of them do shit that studies have said will cause you to die faster.

A decade working in geriatrics & all the patients I cared for over 90 or even over 100 LOVED meat, not one vegetarian among them. And happy hour was the most popular 'event' of the week btw. :tumble:

[Keller]

A decade working in geriatrics & all the patients I cared for over 90 or even over 100 LOVED meat, not one vegetarian among them. And happy hour was the most popular 'event' of the week btw. :tumble:

To be fair -- let's give the veggies a few decades to actually get old.

Not eating meat has not been a widespread practice for very long.

With that said -- I'll gladly trade 10 years tomorrow for a hamburger today.

[Kyra231]

To be fair -- let's give the veggies a few decades to actually get old.

Not eating meat has not been a widespread practice for very long.

With that said -- I'll gladly trade 10 years tomorrow for a hamburger today.

Nothing unfair about it, Necro wants to point fingers & say meat is so incredibly unhealthy yet he did not mention the flip side which is the geriatric population of today who have done fine with a meat based diet for the last century. It can't be THAT unhealthy or they wouldn't have lived 90+ years.

Unless he plans on blaming meat for Alzheimers or dementia next :rofl:

[Keller]

Nothing unfair about it, Necro wants to point fingers & say meat is so incredibly unhealthy yet he did not mention the flip side which is the geriatric population of today who have done fine with a meat based diet for the last century. It can't be THAT unhealthy or they wouldn't have lived 90+ years.

Unless he plans on blaming meat for Alzheimers or dementia next :rofl:

I think it is fair to say that meat-eaters can live healthy lives into the triple-digit ages.

What I think is unfair is implying that that shows it is healthier to eat meat than to not eat meat.

[Gelston]

He is saying meat is unhealthy. He even went so far to suggest that it was "poison".

[Methais]

Someone who is less lazy than me should go back and link all the previous threads Necromancer started that are exactly like this one.

I predict the next one he posts will be in about 2.5 months.

[Keller]

He is saying meat is unhealthy. He even went so far to suggest that it was "poison".

Meat can be unhealthy and people who eat it can live to be 120.

Living longer than other meat eaters does not prove meat is healthy. Now, in 60 years, if vegetarians are living short lives as a group than non-vegetarians, then you've got a point.

[Methais]

Too much vitamin A can be unhealthy too.

OH NOES VITAMIN A IS POISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111

[Gelston]

Meat can be unhealthy and people who eat it can live to be 120.

Living longer than other meat eaters does not prove meat is healthy. Now, in 60 years, if vegetarians are living short lives as a group than non-vegetarians, then you've got a point.

As has been indicated through out this thread, balanced diet and exercise. Necro has called meat ITSELF unhealthy. You can't blame meat for people becoming fatasses and dying from heart attacks and getting diabetes anymore then you can blame oxygen for causing lung cancer.

As far as his constant posting on how superior Vegan diets and stuff are, well... I'll give it to him, he doesnt create a shit load of threads. He just posts in them alot...

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=17257
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=26290
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=833657

And not related but I liked it:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=692746&postcount=4

[Necromancer]

Meat can be unhealthy and people who eat it can live to be 120.

Living longer than other meat eaters does not prove meat is healthy. Now, in 60 years, if vegetarians are living short lives as a group than non-vegetarians, then you've got a point.

Exactly. People have been smoking and drinking for centuries- just because they didn't all die on the spot doesn't mean that smoking and drinking aren't unhealthy practices. That's the big flaw in the reasoning of several of the posters (that and relying on "It sounds odd to me so it must be wrong!" reactions) in this thread.

Anyone who wants proof can google meat and cancer and have fun. You may also want to look at some of the studies done on comparative life expectencies between vegetarians and meat eaters.

And if you want to talk about the geriatrics population- check out the rates of osteoperosis, diabetes (type II mostly), heart-related deaths, and cancer among our elderly. Then go look at the evidence directly linking meat (and in some instances dairy) consumption with increases in each of these diseases. Then go do some research on the changing diet of Americans after WW-II in relationship to the huge increases in each of these problems. You'll find, interestingly enough, that one of the biggest changes was a huge increase in meat consumption in the US. And, interestingly enough, despite otherwise sharing the average American diet, 7th Day Adventists have NOT seen the same rise in these diseases. (They're vegetarians and have provided a stable long-term population to study) Studies have also been done in Japan and Latin America demonstrating similar connections between meat consumption and increased risk.

The research is all over the place if anyone cares to look at it. But, of course, it's far easier to say "I don't like this sound of this" and argue for that burger. In which case, by the way, you've earned your high risk for several potentially fatal complications.

[Necromancer]

Too much vitamin A can be unhealthy too.

OH NOES VITAMIN A IS POISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111

Vitamin A IS a poison in large amounts- way to demonstrate a disturbing inability to analyze your own points.

And Vitamin A has nothing to do with meat (other than the fact that meat is often packed with Vitamin A). Interestingly enough, based on this, you can actually die from eating too much meat (there were some unfortunate incidents involving ships lost at sea back during early european exploration where crews died from Vitamin A poisoning for this very reason), but you can't ever die from eating too much fruit.

[Gelston]

Anyone who wants proof can google meat and cancer and have fun. You may also want to look at some of the studies done on comparative life expectencies between vegetarians and meat eaters.



I can Google proof for us living on a flat Earth and I'll find it.

[Keller]

Exactly.

I'm not defending you. I'm saying that old meat-eaters do not indicate meat is healthy.

I think people like you give a terrible name to vegetarians. Everyone makes choices in their lives. Enjoying meat is a choice I make. I acknowledge it may be unhealthy, but so is living in a city (air quality, germs everywhere, risk of being robbed, etc). That doesn't mean I will stop eating meat or live in Tsa'ah-ville in order to have a chance to live 10 more years. I'm glad you've made that choice, now shut the fuck up and respect mine.


you've earned your high risk for several potentially fatal complications.

Sure, that comes on the side. But mostly we've earned our high risk for eating food that tastes better than yours.

[Methais]

Vitamin A IS a poison in large amounts- way to demonstrate a disturbing inability to analyze your own points.

And Vitamin A has nothing to do with meat (other than the fact that meat is often packed with Vitamin A). Interestingly enough, based on this, you can actually die from eating too much meat (there were some unfortunate incidents involving ships lost at sea back during early european exploration where crews died from Vitamin A poisoning for this very reason), but you can't ever die from eating too much fruit.

The point is I'm taking something that's normally not bad for you, but under certain circumstances can be unhealthy, and blanketing it as poison.

Which is something you never do, ever.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I think it is fair to say that meat-eaters can live healthy lives into the triple-digit ages.

What I think is unfair is implying that that shows it is healthier to eat meat than to not eat meat.

You're just focusing on a logical fallacy, which isn't really what the people arguing with Necromancer are using to support their argument. You are just nitpicking, and that dopey shithead Necromancer is so stupid that he thinks that you are agreeing with him.

[Necromancer]

I can Google proof for us living on a flat Earth and I'll find it.

Not from the National Cancer Institute, National Institute of Health, World Health Organization, Harvard, etc you won't. Bad logic on your part.

[Necromancer]

I'm not defending you. I'm saying that old meat-eaters do not indicate meat is healthy.


I was taking an objective statement you made and saying it was accurate. In no way did I confuse myself with your statement. What's disturbing, however, is that your response indicates that you're falling into the same juvenile rhetorical strategy as a lot of the posters you were arguing against. Namely confusing a person and their ideas.

I expect that of several of the board trolls who live to scream, but I wouldn't have figured you for it necessarily.

[Gelston]

A 1999 meta-study of five studies comparing vegetarian and non-vegetarian mortality rates in western countries found equivalent mortality rates for vegans and those who eat meat regularly. A 2003 study of British vegetarians, including vegans, found similar mortality rates between vegetarians and other groups.

What was your whole point?

[Methais]

I was taking an objective statement you made and saying it was accurate. In no way did I confuse myself with your statement. What's disturbing, however, is that your response indicates that you're falling into the same juvenile rhetorical strategy as a lot of the posters you were arguing against. Namely confusing a person and their ideas.

I expect that of several of the board trolls who live to scream, but I wouldn't have figured you for it necessarily.

Can you stretch your anus like goatse?

[diethx]

I'm having a burger for lunch.


MOOO!


I'm having Fogo de Chao next weekend. MOOOOOOOOOOOO OINK (whatever fucking sound chickens make) NOMNOMNOM.

[Parkbandit]

Vitamin A IS a poison in large amounts- way to demonstrate a disturbing inability to analyze your own points.

And Vitamin A has nothing to do with meat (other than the fact that meat is often packed with Vitamin A). Interestingly enough, based on this, you can actually die from eating too much meat (there were some unfortunate incidents involving ships lost at sea back during early european exploration where crews died from Vitamin A poisoning for this very reason), but you can't ever die from eating too much fruit.

I'll be very careful the next time I'm at sea with only meat to eat....

I'm fairly certain you engage in behavior that is far more dangerous than eating a hamburger every now and then.

[Keller]

Namely confusing a person and their ideas.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were the one advocating those ideas. I think your ideas have stolen your PC password, because they seem to be posting themselves all over this thread.

I'd PM Kranar and see if he can get you set up with a new password.

Until then, maybe I'll address your ideas.

Dear Necromancer's ideas: Please stop being so fucking obnoxious. I respect that you've made the concious decision to not eat meat because you think it'll kill you. I've also made a decision. That decisions is to eat meat because I'd rather die at 70 with a lifetime of eating well than at 80 with the diet of bok-choy and baby corn. If you could please shut the fuck up and quit prostletizing I'd appreciate it.

[Necromancer]

I'll be the first one to say my presentation style isn't intended to make people feel better about their choices. But I back up my ideas with facts and argue them from there.

OBNOXIOUS would be the regular cast of characters who run into these threads (EVERY SINGLE TIME) hoping for a fight (which they definitely get- I'm up for it) so they can throw out insults, shrieks, etc. with no/few facts to support them. Lots of pictures of dead animal, lots of third-grade insults, and then the audacity to call ANYONE else obnoxious.

Again, I enjoy arguing about these issues as much as anyone, but I'm sure as hell not taking the full blame for yet another sabotaged obnoxious thread by people who can't stand to hear (and yet oddly enough can't stay away from) anything that indicates that they shouldn't be eating meat. I'm cool with that- it's amusing at times and laughable at others.

What I WILL call someone out on is this:

Argue all you want, but don't pretend like you're not here specifically for a fight then criticize someone else for being obnoxious. Grow up. If you've got some facts and talking points- awesome. If you don't- own up to that fact.

[CrystalTears]

You ignore all facts other than your own. There's no talking to you.

[Keller]

I am not arguing with you.

I am telling you that you give vegetarians a bad reputation.

I'd say the same thing to someone who walked around telling smokers they were killing themselves.

[Necromancer]

That was more of a catch-all- not just directed at you.

And the difference between this and walking around telling smokers they're killing themselves is that in this case, the meat eaters have to actively go out of their way to hear a message (the thread doesn't open itself kids).

Boo hoo- someone said you shouldn't be eating meat. And these posters keep coming back to hear it again and again. That's fine, well, and dandy...but own it.

[CrystalTears]

For clarification purposes, when you say "meat" like that, do you mean all meats in the general sense (cow, pig, chicken, fish, etc), or do you mean strictly red meat?

[Methais]

That was more of a catch-all- not just directed at you.

And the difference between this and walking around telling smokers they're killing themselves is that in this case, the meat eaters have to actively go out of their way to hear a message (the thread doesn't open itself kids).

Boo hoo- someone said you shouldn't be eating meat. And these posters keep coming back to hear it again and again. That's fine, well, and dandy...but own it.

Dear:

[X] Moron
[] Loser
[] Spec bigot
[] Victim of sibling parentage
[] Victim of "Level 70 God Complex Syndrome"
[] Ganker
[] 12 Year Old
[] Twink
[] Troll
[] Nerfherder
[] l337 d00d
[] Whiner
[] Example of why Jack Kavorkian should make house calls
[] Reroller
[] Other:

You are being flamed because:
[] You forgot to search. This is in the common suggestions thread and still posted too many times a day
[] You posted a "Nublocks are the most hated class in the game!" thread.
[] You posted a "Class is Overpowered" thread.
[] You posted a "Demonology is the only legitimate Warlock spec!" thread.
[] You posted a "Affliction is the only legitimate Warlock spec!" thread.
[] You posted a "Destruction is the only legitimate Warlock spec!" thread.
[] You posted a "Fear is Overpowered and needs to be nerfed!" thread.
[] You posted a "Make resillience affect DOTs!" Thread.
[] You need to learn to play your class.
[] You need to learn to play the game.
[] You think your class is broken and Blizz should fix it, when in reality you just don't know how to play.
[] You have no concept of class balance.
[] You're just an idiot.
[] You're someone who derives their sense of importance from their WoW character.
[] You posted a Omg-i-got-ganked thread.
[] Your model brain is defective, leave until you have one that works.
[] You (possibly) lost a fight to my class and came here to cry about it.
[] Someone told you my class was easy to beat/play, you found out otherwise, and now you're complaining.
[] You posted a total lack of understanding about my class.
[] You posted a total lack of understanding about your class.
[] You don't know which forum to post in.
[] You made a ridiculous claim.
[] I don't like your tone of voice.
[] You fell from "the tree."
[] You posted false information.
[] You just plain suck.
[] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE WRITTEN IN ALL CAPS.
[] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums.
[] Yuo mispeled evry sengle wurd.
[] Youhavenotlearnedthepointofpuncuationsuchasspacing commasandperiods
[X] You are too stupid to argue with.
[] You are extraordinarily bad at [detecting ()/posting ()] sarcasm.
[] Y0u u$3d Nu/V\b3r$ and sy/V\b0l$ in$7ad 0f l3773r$
[] Other:

In punishment, you must:
[] Play a Holy paladin to level 70.
[] /delete yourself
[] Never come into these forums again.
[] Suffer at least three nerfs.
[] Play a FULL Prot specced Warrior to 70.
[] Drink out of a spitoon.
[] Fetch me a shrubbery.
[] Help defeat MCP.
[] Go aggro the murloc.
[] Apologize to everybody on this forum.
[X] All of the above.
[] Nothing. You are lucky.
[] Search for the answer to this thread.

In closing, I'd like to say:
[] Locks are fine, l2play.
[] Stop stinking up the gene pool.
[] Get a life.
[] Your existence makes a compelling argument in favour of involuntary euthanasia.
[] I've found more intelligent things floating in the toilet.
[] STFU.
[] Learn to post
[X] All of the above
[] No one Cares
[] ...

[Tea & Strumpets]

But I back up my ideas with facts and argue them from there.

How can you possibly be serious?

Just to clarify since you aren't that bright, you immediately accept any source that advocates your opinion, and completely ignore all the sources that invalidate your opinion. You never argue any points really, you are just a preachy dope.

Also, whenever I say something stupid, anyone that points it out is a typical board troll.

[Warriorbird]

So far the count is up to zero.

If you haven't had a vegan black bean burger, you're missing out. They're fucking awesome.

I have. I'm also not dumb enough to think that no animals died for it.

[waywardgs]

I wonder what PETA's position on long pork is...

[Vyst]

.

[Mathari]

I read the ingredients list (not the Nutritional "Facts") on everything before I buy something from a store and eat it. If it contains monosodium glutamate (MSG), high fructose corn syrup, modified ANYTHING, ANY partially hydrogenated oil, ANY fake sugar or sugar substitute (things like aspartame or saccharin), trans fats (meaning the fat was made in a laboratory, because trans fats don't exist in nature), or starts adding up chemical preservatives (sodium benzoate, sulfur dioxide, and titanium dioxide are the ones that jump into my head now), I DON'T EAT IT. Period.
I do this too, especially with partially hydrogenated oil/trans fats. It can get really annoying (not to mention surprising) how many things get ruled out that way, though. Out of curiosity, do you go out to eat much? I always wonder how to treat that, since one has virtually no control over the food in that case.

[Methais]

Coming in late on this one.

I'm listing my diet because people probably think it's pertinent: I don't eat a lot of meat. I almost NEVER cook it for myself. I don't crave it that much and seeing as I usually cook for myself and make a huge mess when I cook, cooking meat increases the mess exponentially. I feel pretty damn good most of the time (I don't get sick ever). However, if I go for a long non-meat eating streak (maybe a week or two), one day I'll crave meat like no one's business. I'll eat a steak or a hamburger or something then I'm good for the next week or two. The only explanation I can come up for this is that I'm not getting everything I need from the non-meaty foods I eat, and I need to make up for it every once and awhile.

I don't know whether eating meat or not is good or bad for you in any sort of term, but the way I look at it is this (this applies to all foods, not just meat): what is the QUALITY of the food your eating? The meat you get from shooting your own deer versus going to McDonald's (I'll go hungry first, thanks) is COMPLETELY different. Shit-fed piss-treated antibiotic-filled cows aren't going to be producing very nourishing beef.

Everyone I come in contact with about this subject is always concerned with things like counting carbs and calories, fat percentages in food, eating certain amounts of whatever food each day, etc etc. No one EVER seems concerned about what exactly that food is made of, where it comes from, or what was put into making it. Bread isn't just bread. You can have bread made from flour, eggs, and sugar. Or you can have bread made with modified food starch, bleached flour, high fructose corn syrup, partially hydrogenated oils, titanium dioxide (just for color, right?), and God knows what other chemical preservatives and cheap ingredients that aren't fit for human consumption. You can't just say "eating more bread will make you <whatever>" or "eating less meat will make you <whatever else>". What's in the meat and the bread and the fruits and vegetables?

I read the ingredients list (not the Nutritional "Facts") on everything before I buy something from a store and eat it. If it contains monosodium glutamate (MSG), high fructose corn syrup, modified ANYTHING, ANY partially hydrogenated oil, ANY fake sugar or sugar substitute (things like aspartame or saccharin), trans fats (meaning the fat was made in a laboratory, because trans fats don't exist in nature), or starts adding up chemical preservatives (sodium benzoate, sulfur dioxide, and titanium dioxide are the ones that jump into my head now), I DON'T EAT IT. Period. I also work under the assumption that the more refined something is, the more the nutrients have been refined out of it and the less "quality" the food has. Cheap cooking oil is cheap because the oil has been extracted from the source using solvents (stuff like chloroform or benzene) as opposed to being mechanically pressed from its source. Mmm... chloroform.

I also will not drink any water that has been treated with sodium fluoride.

Following that, I eat whatever I want in whatever quantity I want. If I crave something I assume that my body is telling me there's something in that food that I haven't been getting enough of lately, so I'll eat more of it. Am I going to live longer? Fuck if I know. I sure feel a hell of a lot better, though.

So what I'm getting at here, is to eat whatever you want. Does meat make you feel better? Eat it! Does it gross you out and slow you down? Stay the fuck away from it. But whatever you eat, make sure it isn't refined and so chocked full of poisons and other chemicals that any nourishment that the food may have potentially contained is completely removed.

Don't listen to bullshit "studies" and other opinions about what you should or shouldn't eat. Your body is built to know what it needs. Listen to it.

Assuming it hasn't already been posted on this thread, I'm sure a number of you will find this article funny as hell:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

One last thing... has anyone ever read the ingredients list for Mountain Dew? There's one thing in Mountain Dew I have never seen in any other food product: brominated vegetable oil. Now, having some chemical experience, I know that in order to make a "brominated vegetable oil", you would need a big vat of bromine and an even bigger vat of unsaturated oil. You'd then pour your vat of bromine into your vat of unsaturated oil. Then you mix it in with Mountain Dew. Mmmm.

Not that I was planning on it anyway, I'm definitely never letting a drop of Mountain Dew pass my lips again.

Go google bromine if you're still scratching your head.

That concludes this thread, all previous vegan threads, and all future threads that Necromancer will inevitably post sooner or later.

[diethx]

trans fats (meaning the fat was made in a laboratory, because trans fats don't exist in nature)

Yeah they do, but they're rare, as the double bonds in fatty acids tend to be cis and not trans (so says my organic professor).

[Necromancer]

I have. I'm also not dumb enough to think that no animals died for it.

Or smart enough to back that one up with some nice facts. And hopefully you're smart enough not to fall back on the "inevitably something must have died somewhere in the process if I follow the chain back far enough and therefore nothing is truly vegan and therefore all claims to be vegan are false" approach. That would be the height of rhetorical fallacy.

[Necromancer]

Coming in late on this one.

I'm listing my diet because people probably think it's pertinent: I don't eat a lot of meat. I almost NEVER cook it for myself. I don't crave it that much and seeing as I usually cook for myself and make a huge mess when I cook, cooking meat increases the mess exponentially. I feel pretty damn good most of the time (I don't get sick ever). However, if I go for a long non-meat eating streak (maybe a week or two), one day I'll crave meat like no one's business. I'll eat a steak or a hamburger or something then I'm good for the next week or two. The only explanation I can come up for this is that I'm not getting everything I need from the non-meaty foods I eat, and I need to make up for it every once and awhile.

I don't know whether eating meat or not is good or bad for you in any sort of term, but the way I look at it is this (this applies to all foods, not just meat): what is the QUALITY of the food your eating? The meat you get from shooting your own deer versus going to McDonald's (I'll go hungry first, thanks) is COMPLETELY different. Shit-fed piss-treated antibiotic-filled cows aren't going to be producing very nourishing beef.

Everyone I come in contact with about this subject is always concerned with things like counting carbs and calories, fat percentages in food, eating certain amounts of whatever food each day, etc etc. No one EVER seems concerned about what exactly that food is made of, where it comes from, or what was put into making it. Bread isn't just bread. You can have bread made from flour, eggs, and sugar. Or you can have bread made with modified food starch, bleached flour, high fructose corn syrup, partially hydrogenated oils, titanium dioxide (just for color, right?), and God knows what other chemical preservatives and cheap ingredients that aren't fit for human consumption. You can't just say "eating more bread will make you <whatever>" or "eating less meat will make you <whatever else>". What's in the meat and the bread and the fruits and vegetables?

I read the ingredients list (not the Nutritional "Facts") on everything before I buy something from a store and eat it. If it contains monosodium glutamate (MSG), high fructose corn syrup, modified ANYTHING, ANY partially hydrogenated oil, ANY fake sugar or sugar substitute (things like aspartame or saccharin), trans fats (meaning the fat was made in a laboratory, because trans fats don't exist in nature), or starts adding up chemical preservatives (sodium benzoate, sulfur dioxide, and titanium dioxide are the ones that jump into my head now), I DON'T EAT IT. Period. I also work under the assumption that the more refined something is, the more the nutrients have been refined out of it and the less "quality" the food has. Cheap cooking oil is cheap because the oil has been extracted from the source using solvents (stuff like chloroform or benzene) as opposed to being mechanically pressed from its source. Mmm... chloroform.

I also will not drink any water that has been treated with sodium fluoride.

Following that, I eat whatever I want in whatever quantity I want. If I crave something I assume that my body is telling me there's something in that food that I haven't been getting enough of lately, so I'll eat more of it. Am I going to live longer? Fuck if I know. I sure feel a hell of a lot better, though.

So what I'm getting at here, is to eat whatever you want. Does meat make you feel better? Eat it! Does it gross you out and slow you down? Stay the fuck away from it. But whatever you eat, make sure it isn't refined and so chocked full of poisons and other chemicals that any nourishment that the food may have potentially contained is completely removed.

Don't listen to bullshit "studies" and other opinions about what you should or shouldn't eat. Your body is built to know what it needs. Listen to it.

Assuming it hasn't already been posted on this thread, I'm sure a number of you will find this article funny as hell:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

One last thing... has anyone ever read the ingredients list for Mountain Dew? There's one thing in Mountain Dew I have never seen in any other food product: brominated vegetable oil. Now, having some chemical experience, I know that in order to make a "brominated vegetable oil", you would need a big vat of bromine and an even bigger vat of unsaturated oil. You'd then pour your vat of bromine into your vat of unsaturated oil. Then you mix it in with Mountain Dew. Mmmm.

Not that I was planning on it anyway, I'm definitely never letting a drop of Mountain Dew pass my lips again.

Go google bromine if you're still scratching your head.

I agree with a lot of this, but the whole "don't listen to studies, your body knows what's good for it" piece is completely off-base.

Food cravings RARELY have anything to do with your body's nutritional needs. Your body has an neurology specifically aimed at making you crave foods you regularly eat (independent of their nutritional value- hence why people with dopamine deficiencies often compensate using food), and a LOT of what we eat is independently addictive.

Processed sugars (including high fructose corn syrup- which is put into many foods specifically because it's addictive and ensures that you'll crave more- the same exact tactic used in most pet snacks by the way).

Dairy products (there's actually a gene that makes people more likely to crave cheese) are also addictive- owing to the protein casein which breaks down into an opiate in your system (intended to keep young feeding NOT to keep humans drinking milkshakes and eating nachos)

Your body is conditioned by what you eat, but that conditioning is NOT automatically tied to its best nutritional interests.

[TheRunt]

but you can't ever die from eating too much fruit.

You sure on that? My father in law was put in the hospital because he ate a couple of papayas. He's kidneys are shot so they don't process out the potassium, He also can't eat bananas, potatoes and not sure what else.

[Warriorbird]

Or smart enough to back that one up with some nice facts. And hopefully you're smart enough not to fall back on the "inevitably something must have died somewhere in the process if I follow the chain back far enough and therefore nothing is truly vegan and therefore all claims to be vegan are false" approach. That would be the height of rhetorical fallacy.

In order to do that you'd have to tell me where you acquired them from. I'm guessing Southeast Asia. You can already see the issues right there. At the very least you are not eating local food.

Did you acquire them from Walmart?

Are they from the 'super eco friendly' Horizon Foods?

Are they the product of a destructive monoculture? Subject to genetic engineering to reduce diversity?

Are pesticides genetically coded in?

Yet another example of you just wanting to feel superior.

[Athgo]

You sure on that? My father in law was put in the hospital because he ate a couple of papayas. He's kidneys are shot so they don't process out the potassium, He also can't eat bananas, potatoes and not sure what else.

Yeah, hyperkalemia can cause cardiac arrythmias. Usually only happens in people with compromised kidney function or when taking a potassium supplement and becoming dehydrated. Eating too many bananas would be difficult in a healthy person.

[ViridianAsp]

You sure on that? My father in law was put in the hospital because he ate a couple of papayas. He's kidneys are shot so they don't process out the potassium, He also can't eat bananas, potatoes and not sure what else.

Another little tidbit, my grandmother used to drink nothing but water, to the point she'd wash nearly all the electrolytes out of her body. Too much of anything is a bad thing. The last few years of her life she actually had to be put on water rations and I'd have to mix gatorade in with the rest.

[Necromancer]

In order to do that you'd have to tell me where you acquired them from. I'm guessing Southeast Asia. You can already see the issues right there. At the very least you are not eating local food.

Did you acquire them from Walmart?

Are they from the 'super eco friendly' Horizon Foods?

Are they the product of a destructive monoculture? Subject to genetic engineering to reduce diversity?

Are pesticides genetically coded in?

Yet another example of you just wanting to feel superior.

Wow, guess you've got me pegged. You didn't even need my response before coming to a conclusion. What a valuable conclusion it was too.

Very logical as well. "If I can find anything less than perfection in a person's actions (or in this case- if I can SURMISE any potential shortcoming), a person's entire claim is refuted." Note: don't ever take the LSAT =(

I can see that kind of reasoning from any number of jerkoffs on these boards, but I had a higher opinion of you than to fall into "UR STOOPID HIPOCRITE".

[Necromancer]

Another little tidbit, my grandmother used to drink nothing but water, to the point she'd wash nearly all the electrolytes out of her body. Too much of anything is a bad thing. The last few years of her life she actually had to be put on water rations and I'd have to mix gatorade in with the rest.

That legitimately sucks for both you and your grandmother. And yeah, too much water and you drown. Too much food, and you die. But that's independent of nutritional value.

[Warriorbird]

I don't teach LSAT courses but I didn't do half bad either. I don't think that debating on the PC features strong logical reasoning (yours included). I'm biased... and able to see that I am.

You commonly toss out trollish stuff like 'ZOMG! There's blood in milk!' From my own perspective I feel America's relationship with food and agriculture is highly problematic... I just don't consider the traditional vegan diet something that needs to be hyper evangelized. If somebody wants to come to that point themselves... more power to them. You don't justify it by insulting everybody else's choices and clothing it in 'fact.' There are far more dimensions to America's food problem than solely meat/not meat.

I also consider the average circular grass farm to be far superior to America's soybean and corn industries, meat, eggs, and all.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/c/c3/Badge-veg-genocide.gif/180px-Badge-veg-genocide.gif

[Parkbandit]

you are just a preachy dope.



Do you really have to be so harsh?

Remind me not to get on your bad side..

PS - Come back to WOW

[CrystalTears]

Food cravings RARELY have anything to do with your body's nutritional needs. Your body has an neurology specifically aimed at making you crave foods you regularly eat (independent of their nutritional value- hence why people with dopamine deficiencies often compensate using food), and a LOT of what we eat is independently addictive.
Meh, I disagree somewhat as I've been told by doctors not to deprive cravings, just to eat them in small amounts, and it will satisfy the craving, give your body what it's asking for, and you'll feel better. It'll also reduce the chances of you going on a binge and eating way more than you should because you curbed the craving more than you should have.

Besides, when I'm riding the crimson wave, I'm in dire need for more iron, and I'd rather get that through a steak or burger than pills, and I'm not one to eat red meat very often. At most I'll eat it once a week.

[Vyst]

.

[Necromancer]

This is probably the worst aspect of my eating habits that I've been attempting to work on. I go in spurts in how often I eat out, and depending where I do, I can definitely tell I shouldn't have. Like if you go to a cheap Chinese restaurant and regret it an hour later because you feel like shit.



I was told what I was told by my organic chemistry professor as well. Let's try to rephrase. Trans fats do not exist in any sort of significant amount in nature, and the fact that they can be quantified and stuck on a label suggests that they've been made in a lab.



I wasn't clear enough last time. I think you can divide your cravings up into two categories, craving because you want to experience the taste of something (I believe this is the type of craving you're talking about), and craving because every cell in your body is screaming for it NOW. The latter one is the one I'm talking about.

This is a difficult thing to know how to pay attention to if your normal diet is nothing but crap, because your body feels like nothing but shit the whole time and you can't tell the difference. The best way I've noticed to figure out what body is craving, rather than my tongue, is paying attention to what I eat before I work out. If I get a stomach ache and can't go on, I probably shouldn't be eating that. Eating some donuts and drinking some Mountain Dew before a run is a good way to end up puking.

Same thing with after you've worked out. Especially a really heavy workout where you're starving when you come back. When I eat after this, I usually can hardly even taste anything (plus I inhale my food--something else I should work on), because my body is craving it so bad it just wants it NOW. Pay extra attention to how you feel after you eat whatever you've eaten.

An example from me would be after an Aikido class I'm usually famished. The first thing I do is drive off and get something to eat fast. However, every once in awhile my instructor has us stick around to help with something. One time this happened and while I was helping out after training I was literally getting tunnel vision and feeling like I was going to pass out because I needed to eat so badly. My instructor noticed and got me a rice cracker and it woke me right up (was still starving, though). I couldn't have cared less about the taste, I needed the nutrients NOW. If I had been handed and unfortunate enough to eat something like a McDonald's hamburger, I would have probably been vomiting within minutes because my body was definitely NOT craving that.

Or if studying for a final (especially a math one, for some reason they're worst when it comes to this), when it actually feels like your brain is deficient because it has used up all its energy. I crave chocolate when this happens because it's like instant carbs for your brain. Again, it has nothing to do with the taste of the chocolate (which I do like, though), my brain needed the extra energy to keep functioning.

I agree that your body is conditioned by what you eat, which is why this won't work if you eat nothing but garbage because you won't be able to tell the difference. This is how my eating habits are changed: if it makes you feel like shit, don't eat it again. If you keep doing this you keep honing down things that "make you feel like shit" (as well as making you incredibly more picky), and you will start to become more and more sensitive as to what you'll eat. I don't crave soft drinks anymore because the knowing of how bad I will feel completely overrides any sort of taste factor, and I can't even walk into a fast food restaurant anymore because even the smell revolts me.

I think overall this is awesome advice to anyone. It's criminal what kind of garbage the food industry is allowed to put into our food and just how hard you have to go out of your way to get good food sometimes. Though I'll add that craving things 'based on taste' is actually more often than not a sign of addiction to some part of that food. You just associate the taste with the "fix". Hence chocolate (sugar and dairy) and soda (THE DEVIL)taste GREAT in part because they're feeding your chemical addictions.

To be honest, I never watched anything I ate before becoming a vegetarian (vegan now, of course, but this was like 6 years ago). In fact, I would've been the first person to say "It's not worth living if I can't have my hamburger!" and was considered to be the last person ever to go veggie. And the first thing I noticed was after about 5 days I felt better than I ever had. Once all the meat was out of my system, I no longer felt so tired and weighed down after eating (your body works HARD to digest meat- it's not something it's well equipped to do), and I had more energy overall. And believe me, I wasn't eating healthier on any other front. As I slowly switched to more healthy eating (including going vegan) I noticed how much better I felt after switch to something healthier. Without this, I'm not sure I would've stayed vegetarian (At first, it was the one tangible benefit that outweighed the constant "What am I eating?" factor I suddenly had to incorporate into my life).

And ugh, side note on veganism: dyslexia and veganism are a baaaad combination. I have to scour the ingredients list of everything I eat, but I constantly miss stuff and misread ingredients. It's at the point now where I shop with my roomie so that if I pick up anything new, I can have her read the ingredient list for me. Otherwise I don't buy any new brands or new foods unless the ingredients list is TINY or it's clearly marked vegan.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Where exactly are you getting that what you crave in some foods is bad for you or is addictive? Chocolate doesn't always have dairy and/or sugar mixed in with it.. quite a few people love the taste of chocolate when it's pure-- bitter and smoky, absolutely no sugar or milk added.

People can crave anything-- sometimes I crave blackberries or carrots, hell sometimes I crave artichokes, spinach, or cauliflower. Is it because there's bad stuff in there that my body is addicted to and I absolutely need? Sorry, I don't buy that "explanation" at all.

Eating food activates pleasure centers in your brain, for a variety of reasons, but it's not just for a few "addictive" foods, it's for ALL eating you do. The amount of pleasure you get though tends to stem from the quality of your food.. it's why eating a gourmet pizza is likely going to be more filling with fewer slices than say, a pizza from Domino's. The more filler, the more you blunt the reaction in those pleasure centers, and the more you eat. Again though-- this is linked to QUALITY, and not simply "List A is good for you, List B is bad for you." If you really want to get into quality, a LOT of vegan substitutes for meat and the like is full of lower-quality fillers and lab made ingredients.

[Necromancer]

Eating food activates pleasure centers in your brain, for a variety of reasons, but it's not just for a few "addictive" foods, it's for ALL eating you do. The amount of pleasure you get though tends to stem from the quality of your food.. it's why eating a gourmet pizza is likely going to be more filling with fewer slices than say, a pizza from Domino's. The more filler, the more you blunt the reaction in those pleasure centers, and the more you eat. Again though-- this is linked to QUALITY, and not simply "List A is good for you, List B is bad for you." If you really want to get into quality, a LOT of vegan substitutes for meat and the like is full of lower-quality fillers and lab made ingredients.

I've made this exact same point in this thread (that the reason why people feel they "can't live without meat" is because of the brain's dopamine channels that are created to keep you eating the foods you're used to eating to ensure that you ARE eating).

But the reality of the situation is that additives are put into foods to make them addictive. Processed sugars are addictive- that includes high fructose corn syrup. The latter is actually put into many foods for the sole purpose of making them addictive. Dairy is addictive- the cheese industry has invested a LOT of research into getting demographic information about the people who are most likely to become addicted to the casein in dairy to figure out how to market cheese best.

It's not that you can't like something because of its taste- it's that taste is the first thing you'll consciously identify with foods that are addictive. You don't say to yourself, "OH MY GOD I WANT CASEIN OPIATES IN MY SYSTEM RIGHT NOW!", you'll say to yourself, "Jesus christ I LOVE the taste of guda!"

And to bring up "quality" in foods is a rhetorical dead end. It's not that there isn't such a thing as quality per se, but unless we take some time to define what quality is and isn't, there's no much to argue about the point. "low grade fillers"- what does that mean exactly?

And yes, food CAN often be boiled down to "List A is good for you and list B is bad for you". We forget that because so much of what we eat actually falls under list B. We really actually need at least three columns: that which is straight up bad for you, that which has some benefits but is also not what your body needs to survive, and that which your body needs to survive.

For example, though I (and many people) often simplify humans as saying we're "Herbivores", the reality of the situation is that humans, like many primates, are specifically frugivores. In fact, up until very recently in history the humans/ancestors chain lived almost exclusively on fruit (very few frugivores are actually exclusively fruit eaters- they just eat mostly fruit). Dr. Alan Walker did groundbreaking research into this using fossil records and electron microscopes decades ago that was largely accepted by the scientific community but NOT accepted by the general public (the whole, we've been hunting for meat to eat since the dawn of time thing is actually false. Humans are not physically equipped to kill, cannot digest raw meat without serious health risks, and until recently in our evolutionary history had no way to cook meat regularly and thus did not eat meat except perhaps under opportunistic circumstances like many herbivore primates).

The human digestive tract can't digest grass or grains without processing it first, and even most beans we eat are actually toxic to us unless cooked properly. So even though we have FDA recommendations for X servings of grain each day (and dairy- that one is truly criminal), our bodies actually don't need it. And, as we've seen, it has health consequences when we have too much. The same goes for meat, dairy, etc.

But our digestive system IS fully equipped to deal with fruits and many vegetables. We talk about these as having "Health benefits", but that is actually just a demonstration of the scary turn our diet has taken. They don't have "Health benefits", they're exactly what your body is set up to live off of. The rest of what we eat just has "health consequences". Don't get me wrong- you can be healthy with a diet of grains, beans, meat, and dairy (Hey, I'm not rushing to give up my pasta here!), but anything outside of fruits and vegetables actually falls under column B "Unhealthy" simply because they all have things in them that your body doesn't need and often that is actually a problem for your body to deal with. But they're not all equal in this column. And many of them also have aspects to them that are beneficial to us- and in many instances moderation in consumption can help to outweigh the negatives (though often more so in our perception than in reality).

We're just so used to what we eat that we overlook this reality. And we've got things in our diets that are so much worse for us than, say, grain, that grain starts looking mighty health in comparison (but when did it get to the point where processed sugars and transfats were the benchmark against which we defined healthy and unhealthy?). There are also cultural factors we take into account- for example one can harvest more grain in a particular plot of land than bananas. So even though a banana is better for you than grain as an individual, it may not be better for us as a species to give up all of our wheat land to make bananas.

Bottom line: the notion that much of what we eat is actually "healthy" is as much a product of bad comparisons than anything else.

[Some Rogue]

tldr

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Jemah/lionstfu.jpg

[Methais]

I like apples.

[Stretch]

Does anyone here actually read those walls of text? The only poster whose posts I skip over more are Jazuela's.

On a side note, I had a veal parm sandwich for dinner. It was so delicious I had two of them.

[Mathari]

quite a few people love the taste of chocolate when it's pure-- bitter and smoky, absolutely no sugar or milk added.
OMNOMNOMNOM.

/endthread

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

OMNOMNOMNOM.

/endthread

Srsly.

Also:


tldr

This.

[Kyra231]

Does anyone here actually read those walls of text? The only poster whose posts I skip over more are Jazuela's.

On a side note, I had a veal parm sandwich for dinner. It was so delicious I had two of them.

In with the tldr x3.

He reminds me of one of those crazy religious nuts who stand on street corners spouting crap everyone tries to ignore because there is no reasoning with them.

[Necromancer]

You people are living proof that the ever shrinking sound bite is ruining society.

[Proxy]

Society is already ruined, and the Human Race was lost.

So whats your point Q?

[Stretch]

See? You can post in < 500 words and still get your meaning across

Sometimes, you don't even need words

http://www.supersizedmeals.com/food/images/articles/20081112-Dominos_8_Meats_Pizza_1.jpg

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

You people are living proof that the ever shrinking sound bite is ruining society.

I'm not afraid of reading large blocks of text.

I'm just not into doing so on forums.

[diethx]

Has Necronancy ever convinced anyone on the PC with his craptastic arguments? I've never seen anyone go over to the darkside before... so why the fuck does he still bother? Is he just another blowhard that likes to hear himself rant, or what?

[Vyst]

.

[Ravenstorm]

A pedant can never understand why no one understands just how right he is.

[Necromancer]

Has Necronancy ever convinced anyone on the PC with his craptastic arguments? I've never seen anyone go over to the darkside before... so why the fuck does he still bother? Is he just another blowhard that likes to hear himself rant, or what?

As opposed to a board troll who seems to run to the argument to take part in it just to hear her own insults (and never any actual good points?). For someone so critical of this thread, you sure have invested a lot of time in it.

But, far be it for you to EVER miss a chance to douche up a thread. It's what you do.

[Proxy]

wow, Props Q. way to grow fangs!!! Win.

[TheRunt]

Apologizing in advance for the wot.

<For example, though I (and many people) often simplify humans as saying we're "Herbivores", the reality of the situation is that humans, like many primates, are specifically frugivores.>
And most scientists classify humans as omnivores. And many primates will eat meat when available such as chimpanzees.

<(the whole, we've been hunting for meat to eat since the dawn of time thing is actually false. Humans are not physically equipped to kill, cannot digest raw meat without serious health risks, and until recently in our evolutionary history had no way to cook meat regularly and thus did not eat meat except perhaps under opportunistic circumstances like many herbivore primates).>

"In fossil remains of the Australopithecus Africanus, the predecessor of man, researchers found carbon compounds that relate directly to meat consumption. This puts an end to all the stories that prehistoric man lived off fruits and vegetables.
Eating meat is a natural condition of man"
http://www.animalfreedom.org/english/column/desirable_meat.html
If eating meat isn't natural for humans why does just about every culture on earth eat meat of one sort or another?

And humans may not be "physically equipped" to kill. But our mental abilities more than make up for it. And humans properly trained can outrun any other animal at long distances. Perfect for chasing something down and sticking a spear in it. Or to cover large areas looking for carcasses.
http://www.physorg.com/news95954919.html
http://www.runtheplanet.com/resources/historical/runevolve.asp
You don't need to run a marathon to catch a carrot now do you?

<The human digestive tract can't digest grass or grains without processing it first, and even most beans we eat are actually toxic to us unless cooked properly.>
Could it be that the human digestive system has evolved beyond grasses and grains to you guessed it meat?
"The human small intestine comprises about 56% of the intestines while the colon comprises 45% of the gut in apes. This would make sense as an increased area for nutrient breakdown via fermentation is vital to ape survival while the energy dense foods of humans should be absorbed as soon as possible to avoid excreting contents that could still yield energy."
http://johnhawks.net:84/node/689

<And, as we've seen, it has health consequences when we have too much. The same goes for meat, dairy, etc.>
And I'm assuming that your including soy in the etc. correct?
"High levels of phytic acid, trypsin inhibitors, toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines are all present in soy products."
"Phytoestrogens that disrupt endocrine function and are potent antithyroid agents are present in vast quantities in soy, including the potentially devastating isoflavone Genistein. Infants exclusively fed soy-based formula have 13,000 to 22,000 times more estrogen compounds in their blood than babies fed milk-based formula, the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day."
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz
http://www.frot.co.nz/dietnet/basics/soy.htm

<And yes, food CAN often be boiled down to "List A is good for you and list B is bad for you". We forget that because so much of what we eat actually falls under list B. We really actually need at least three columns: that which is straight up bad for you, that which has some benefits but is also not what your body needs to survive, and that which your body needs to survive.>
Well you can survive on very little. Look at most of the third world African countries. But just survive or thrive? There have been numerous studied that have shown that young children's brains develop better with eating meat.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/role+of+red+meat+in+the+diet+for+children+and+adol escents.-a0169311698
http://www.childcareaware.org/en/subscriptions/dailyparent/volume.php?id=1
Yes it says meat or meat substitutes which usually is soy. And since soy is so bad for you well.... I'd rather give my child a nice chunk of steak than a birth control pill.

Heres a newer study. A US Agricultural Research Service scientist stated that withholding meat from pregnant women and children is unethical.
""There have been sufficient studies clearly showing that when women avoid all animal foods, their babies are born small, they grow very slowly and they are developmentally retarded, possibly permanently."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4282257.stm

[Necromancer]

Finding carbons in one fossil says little except that the Liem paradox is alive and well. Nothing surprising about that. Notice our digestive tracts are still not made for meat.

And no the human digestive system never evolved beyond grasses and grains to meat. First off, species evolve towards being herbivores, NOT towards being carnivores. This is why actual omnivores are modified carnivores- they're mid transition. They're generally predominantly carnivorous with a few adaptations that allow them to eat fruits/veggies, and they generally cannot survive purely on an herbivore diet (with a few exceptions like certain species of bear) And humans have only been eating grain for the last 10,000-20,000 years, it's a VERY new phenomenon. We didn't evolve beyond it, we NEVER ate it until recently.

And yes, our mental abilities allow us to make tools and such and to see other animals eating meat and adopt the habit ourselves. But NO carnivore or omnivore on the planet needs additional tools to hunt. Not a single one. We have the teeth of an herbivore, the saliva of an herbivore, we have the intestinal tract of an herbviore, the skull musculature, etc. So we have to go to great lengths to consume meat (need weapons, tools, and cooking to do it)- which our intellect allows us to do.

And actually I DO consider soy to be something we shouldn't have too much of. Beans and legumes aren't what we're supposed to be living off of, but it has health benefits that outweigh consequences (and doesn't by necessity involve cruelty and massive environmental damage). The whole "estrogen" issue in soy is bullshit and disproven over and over. isoflavones are NOT estrogen, and it takes thousands of parts isoflavones to equal ONE part estrogen. It is NOT the equivalent of five birth control pills a day. And, oh the irony, US beef is loaded with ESTRINOL- synthetic cancer-causing estrogen. It's so bad that the EU won't import our beef because of it. So if you want to give your kid beef over soy- you're an idiot.

BUT props to you for actually doing some research and coming up with some facts to support an opinion. It's one of the first times it's happened in this thread.

[Proxy]

There you go failing again, like Rosy O'Donnell on a diet. sad... :(

[Warriorbird]

Theories of what humans should be don't translate to what humans are. Hunting is probably the second oldest human profession. That doesn't mean that early humans ate an overwhelming amount of meat but they certainly would not look askance at it. The development of agriculture actually reduced fitness and health.

Also... newsflash... it is well within most middle class Americans' means to get much better beef than the typical storebought stuff. It is a fair bit harder for vegans to get soy that isn't Monsanto.

[Methais]

And yes, our mental abilities allow us to make tools and such and to see other animals eating meat and adopt the habit ourselves. But NO carnivore or omnivore on the planet needs additional tools to hunt. Not a single one.

Mind > Muscle

This is why we're at the top of the food chain.

[Mathari]

But NO carnivore or omnivore on the planet needs additional tools to hunt. Not a single one. We have the teeth of an herbivore, the saliva of an herbivore, we have the intestinal tract of an herbviore, the skull musculature, etc. So we have to go to great lengths to consume meat (need weapons, tools, and cooking to do it)- which our intellect allows us to do.
There's some irony here, maybe.

Suppose that, as an analogy with your above points, I said the following: NO man on the planet lacks a Y chromosome (or, alternatively: has a vagina). Not a single one. Men have Y chromosomes, have penises, don't get pregnant, etc. Men have to go to great lengths (need surgery and more) to do what women do, such as become pregnant- which our current medical science now allows them to do.

Since your parallel argument here is for the claim that humans are not really omnivores (but are really just herbivores with tools), the analogous argument above would be an argument for the claim that the transgendered person discussed in this thread (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=37767) is not really a man (but is really just a female with tools). Yet, in the latter thread, you say things like, "Um, he's obviously a man. You don't get to define someone's gender for them," and, "Anyone who uses the genetics argument to reinforce the gender binary does nothing more than show off how ragingly ignorant they are." You seem to be insisting that he's a man more or less because he says he is (or feels he is), even if all other men in history are unlike him (do not get pregnant, etc.). But then, continuing the analogy, why can't it also (analogously) be that human beings just are omnivores (we just do, by and large, eat both meat and vegetables), even if we are unlike all other omnivores in history? In other words, why does the history of one classificatory type (omnivores) trump the current data in one case (e.g., the data that humans obviously do eat both meat and vegetables), but not in the other?

Maybe you can resolve the tension in some way, but it's not obvious to me.

[Necromancer]

There's some irony here, maybe.

Suppose that, as an analogy with your above points, I said the following: NO man on the planet lacks a Y chromosome (or, alternatively: has a vagina). Not a single one. Men have Y chromosomes, have penises, don't get pregnant, etc. Men have to go to great lengths (need surgery and more) to do what women do, such as become pregnant- which our current medical science now allows them to do.

Since your parallel argument here is for the claim that humans are not really omnivores (but are really just herbivores with tools), the analogous argument above would be an argument for the claim that the transgendered person discussed in this thread (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=37767) is not really a man (but is really just a female with tools). Yet, in the latter thread, you say things like, "Um, he's obviously a man. You don't get to define someone's gender for them," and, "Anyone who uses the genetics argument to reinforce the gender binary does nothing more than show off how ragingly ignorant they are." You seem to be insisting that he's a man more or less because he says he is (or feels he is), even if all other men in history are unlike him (do not get pregnant, etc.). But then, continuing the analogy, why can't it also (analogously) be that human beings just are omnivores (we just do, by and large, eat both meat and vegetables), even if we are unlike all other omnivores in history? In other words, why does the history of one classificatory type (omnivores) trump the current data in one case (e.g., the data that humans obviously do eat both meat and vegetables), but not in the other?

Maybe you can resolve the tension in some way, but it's not obvious to me.

I'm not going to belabor the point actually because I think it's a good one. Omnivore, herbivore, carnivore...we made these terms up. I use them because they are what we have, but in the end they're artificial groupings we've made. It's not nature made these distinctions- we made them.

But the problem with your analogy is more of differing purposes. In the gender argument, I was trying to demonstrate primarily that the categories of gender were made up- thus when people claimed "All men have a Y chromosome" it was circular reasoning (they're defined as male because they have a Y chromosome which defines being male). But in this situation I'm using the terms to make a different point- that our bodies physically are not fit for meat consumption. The actual terms are a vehicle to that point- not the center of the argument, whereas in the gender issue the terms themselves were the center of the debate.

And, at the end of the day while I think it's a worthy discussion- no matter what our bodies are ideally meant to handle, it doesn't change our moral and ethical obligations as a society. So it's really secondary to the real issues.

[Lyonis]

Ok.. let's hijack this thread destined for Stupidsville and pull a u-turn.

The BEST cheeseburger you ever had?



http://www.fathersoffice.com/

They mix blue cheese right into the meat, it's so fucking awesome it's not even funny. The umpteen beers and ciders they have on tap is second only to the fact that they won't serve ketchup in the place.


Ditto on that, a good steak only needs to be medium rare, no spices.

QFT

Jesse is my homeboy but vegans are only slightly less annoying than people who over cook steak.

:sorry:

[Lyonis]

There is no competition.

The Father's Office Burger. Hands-down the best cheeseburger anyone will ever have. Period. Nothing will come close.

Here is a review of the restaurant/burger w/ pictures: http://whatstoeatla.blogspot.com/2007/08/fathers-officethat-burger-is-definitely.html

Here is a "copy-cat" of the recipe: http://meemoskitchen.blogspot.com/2008/06/office-burger.html

My fellow westsider beat me to it.

[Miscast]

Perhaps homosexuals should receive higher insurance rates as well, as they account for more HIV cases than other population segments.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#exposure

No reason you shouldn't pay a little extra for the meat you put in your mouth either, right?

:tumble:
Agreed.

[Clove]

There's some irony here, maybe...
Maybe you can resolve the tension in some way, but it's not obvious to me.Nice.

[Clove]

Food cravings RARELY have anything to do with your body's nutritional needs. Your body has an neurology specifically aimed at making you crave foods you regularly eat (independent of their nutritional value- hence why people with dopamine deficiencies often compensate using food), and a LOT of what we eat is independently addictive.Prove it. The fact that not all food cravings reflect your nutritional needs does not imply that food cravings rarely reflect the body's nutritional needs. You use ad hoc reasoning and you're full of shit.

[Parkbandit]

And yes, our mental abilities allow us to make tools and such and to see other animals eating meat and adopt the habit ourselves. But NO carnivore or omnivore on the planet needs additional tools to hunt. Not a single one. We have the teeth of an herbivore, the saliva of an herbivore, we have the intestinal tract of an herbviore, the skull musculature, etc. So we have to go to great lengths to consume meat (need weapons, tools, and cooking to do it)- which our intellect allows us to do.


Incorrect (as usual). Some of the earliest tools, still used by primates, were sticks that were stuck into ant hills in order to eat ants.. which unless you now classify insects as plants, makes your whole rewriting history, look pathetic.

http://www.arkive.org/media/685CD39A-6B6E-4328-B57C-8DDCD5FA6B84/Presentation.Large/photo.jpg

Edited to add: I just remembered another one.. otters use stones to break open oyster shells.

http://www.conchking.com/AAASea%20Otter3pg.jpg

[oldanforgotten]

Typical PETARD argument. Typical "you're a PETARD" response.

Most people don't eat soy meat and vegetables all the time because it doesn't suit their palate. Most "Vegan restaurants" such as veggie heaven, sunflower, or such, have a menu mainly comprised of food that I can best describe as tasting like horseshit mixed with pig cum.

A Petard arguing about the moral responsibility of others and how they are being bad by eating meat holds about as much water as an an Islamic militant cleric telling people to blow shit up to do god's work and be moral. Yea, thats right, PETA endorses blowing up buildings, arson, domestic terrorism and killing animals. That's right. Necro loves an organization that claims to be fighting for animal rights, but puts down thousands of pets a year, and doesn't even give the animals or local environment the respect of burning the bodies, but rather uses the local dumpsters.

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/article_detail.cfm/article/134

hey, look, PETA's medical advisory board, which does it's medical research doesn't even have licensed doctors doing the research! Yay, random starbucks cashiers and A&P shelf stockers telling us about health!

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/article_detail.cfm/article/168

Hey, PETA's been linked as a domestic terrorist group in the US Senate! Yay! and they are listed on the domestic terrorist watchlist by the FBI!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/19/domestic.terrorism/index.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/19/AR2005121901777.html


So wait, what exactly did Peta say this time?

[Clove]

Seagulls drop crustaceans on sharp rocks to break open as well.

[oldanforgotten]

wait, and how can we forget PETA as the animal loving organization that stored hundreds of the animals they planned on killing in freezers to ease the process of dumping them into local dumpsters!

[oldanforgotten]

I'm not going to belabor the point actually because I think it's a good one. Omnivore, herbivore, carnivore...we made these terms up. I use them because they are what we have, but in the end they're artificial groupings we've made. It's not nature made these distinctions- we made them.

But the problem with your analogy is more of differing purposes. In the gender argument, I was trying to demonstrate primarily that the categories of gender were made up- thus when people claimed "All men have a Y chromosome" it was circular reasoning (they're defined as male because they have a Y chromosome which defines being male). But in this situation I'm using the terms to make a different point- that our bodies physically are not fit for meat consumption. The actual terms are a vehicle to that point- not the center of the argument, whereas in the gender issue the terms themselves were the center of the debate.

And, at the end of the day while I think it's a worthy discussion- no matter what our bodies are ideally meant to handle, it doesn't change our moral and ethical obligations as a society. So it's really secondary to the real issues.



Based on what are our bodies not fit for meat consumption? Last I checked, humans have incisors, which are specifically for cutting flesh. Of course our bodies take longer to digest meat. Any animal that eats meat takes longer to digest their food than a herbivore. The nutritional value argument is pure bullshit, we can get our nutrients from either source, and is generally best from a combination of both.