They only won because they had more money and an army of volunteers..

[crb]

So, watching the news, I saw a gay activist from california, in reference to prop 8, complain the election wasn't fair, because...

"They only won because they had more money and an army of volunteers working phone banks."

One side having that isn't fair? Someone phone John McCain, he got cheated.

[Warriorbird]

Given how much folks (yourself included) have complained about Obama I'd think you'd want to sympathize with the poor gay fellow.

[Necromancer]

CRB? Sympathy?

Have you two met?

And yes, that 30 million from the Mormon Church to three referendums made a substantial difference. And yes, having churches (existing social networks from which you can draw a pool of active volunteers) also made a big difference.

And more importantly, asshole, it was discriminatory bullshit. But I just LOVE how that didn't factor into your analysis. Way to kick some people while they're down. You really are the perfect conservative.

[Kranar]

It's pretty typical for crb...

Find some quote you heard on the news or read on a blog which makes one of the weaker arguments in support of position A, and then use that quote to represent the entirety of position A so as to support position B.

These forums are flooded with that kind of crap, which is why I keep asking, how the heck do people still take this guy seriously?

Don't confuse rhetoric for intelligence or persistence/political spam for substance. A thousand threads using the same tactics and repetitive BS doesn't make a position any more valid than one thread on the subject.

[Some Rogue]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/gay_thread.jpg

[phantasm]

The mormon church is powerfull. Just wait, I hear obama is secretely working for them.

[Warriorbird]

People forget that crb = Virilneus... but I don't.

[Necromancer]

I don't either. He's as big a douche on the officials as he is on the unofficials. Sorcery, politics...he's always bitching about something.

[ElanthianSiren]

Sorcery, politics...he's always bitching about something.

heh not that I want to make light, but how is that different from any of the rest of us?

Most people I know are always bitching about something, with the exception of a small handful.

[ViridianAsp]

heh not that I want to make light, but how is that different from any of the rest of us?

Most people I know are always bitching about something, with the exception of a small handful.

Ditto, bitching is what we do best. ;)

[diethx]

Most people I know are always bitching about something

WHY YES, YES YOU ARE.



:heart:

[crb]

So everyone defends the hypocrites?

You can't bitch about money in politics when it is against you but say nothing when it is for you.

That makes you a hypocrite, a loser, a douche.

I am libertarian so I am for gay rights, I'm not picking on Jesse's team here, railing against me like some bible thumping conservative is just a strawman because you'd rather not come up with some sort of coherenet justification for the hypocrisy of the left.

And I do not have problems with the fact that Barack Obama raised a lot of money. I have problems with the fact that his campaign consciously turned off credit card address verification for anonymous Internet donations. I have problems with him going back on his word to accept political financing out of political expediency. Having a President that keeps his word is important to me, I guess we'll try again in 4 or 8 years, how long has it been since we've had one? Pretty fucking long time.

Just admit to the fact that is fucking hypocritical to bitch about grass roots financial and manpower support when it is against you, but not say a word when it is for you. Instead of circling the far-left-liberals wagon and attacking the messenger, yet again.

Cause just attacking the messenger all the time is really weak. Like Kranar there, how many times have you responded to any of my posts with anything but a messenger attack? Like back when we were arguing about fiscal policy you really couldn't come up with any counter points and so bam bam, attack the messenger. Sad.

I got thick skin, you aren't going to hurt my feelings I'm afraid.

[Gan]

So, watching the news, I saw a gay activist from california, in reference to prop 8, complain the election wasn't fair, because...

"They only won because they had more money and an army of volunteers working phone banks."

One side having that isn't fair? Someone phone John McCain, he got cheated.



The campaigns for and against Proposition 8 raised $35.8 million and $37.6 million, respectively, becoming the highest-funded campaign on any state ballot that day and surpassing every campaign in the country in spending except the presidential contest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_presidential_election).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

While I understand the irony you're trying to point out. I dont think the gay activist has his facts right.

[TheRoseLady]

nedfiscal
I got a thick head, you aren't going to hurt my feelings I'm afraid.

There, fixed it for you.

[crb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

While I understand the irony you're trying to point out. I dont think the gay activist has his facts right.
Oh I don't think so either, and I'm sure they had an army of volunteers too, this is california after all. I'm sure it was just sour grapes.

It is just rampantly hypocritical. To complain that politics is not fair unless both sides have equal financial resources, but to only pipe up when you feel your side was short sided on a ballot proposal, but not the presidential campaign at the top of the ticket where you, most likely, supported the candidate with the vastly superior resources.

To give you all something else to get angry about. I also hear that Barack Obama is partially to blame for the passing of Prop 8. Seriously. Apparently black and hispanic minority groups voted for it by larger margins than other ethnicities, and their higher than normal voter turnout thanks to BO, meant more votes for the prop. Discuss.

[Warriorbird]

Hypocrisy is pretty frequent in politics. If we tried to discuss every single example we still wouldn't find them all. I'm sure you didn't discuss fundraising in 2000 or 2004.

[Parkbandit]

Hypocrisy is pretty frequent in politics. If we tried to discuss every single example we still wouldn't find them all. I'm sure you didn't discuss fundraising in 2000 or 2004.


B-b-b-but the Republicans?

[Warriorbird]

Playing into his little world would be playing into his little world. Discussion framing 101.

[Keller]

You know what is hypocritical?

Someone making this thread and then trying to call someone else out on sour grapes. This is just one QQing dude being quoted by another QQing dbag.

[crb]

Hypocrisy is pretty frequent in politics. If we tried to discuss every single example we still wouldn't find them all. I'm sure you didn't discuss fundraising in 2000 or 2004.
Kerry outspent bush in 04 ya know... I don't remember who spent more in 00.

[Kranar]

I also hear that Barack Obama is partially to blame for the passing of Prop 8. Seriously.


First Barack Obama is to blame for worsening the financial crisis.

Now Barack Obama is to blame for banning gay marriage.

Man if you thought liberals were a group of cry babies blaming everything on George Bush... the next 4 years will be pure comedy.

I heard Barack Obama kills kittens too.

[ElanthianSiren]

I heard Barack Obama kills kittens too.

Nah that's puppies when they aggravate his daughter's allergies. To disguise the bloody puppy entrails still dripping at his sleeves, he also takes shots at himself because he's the media darling, and he knows they'll NEVER notice over his charm and wit.


ps:
diethx FU! I never bitch. ...About anything. To say that is slander and calumny.

...friggin message boards...damn cable connection....friggin bad drivers...yeah I'm talking to YOU, bad driver America, out there.

[Parkbandit]

First Barack Obama is to blame for worsening the financial crisis.

Now Barack Obama is to blame for banning gay marriage.

Man if you thought liberals were a group of cry babies blaming everything on George Bush... the next 4 years will be pure comedy.

I heard Barack Obama kills kittens too.

Pretending that Obama and his supporters didn't play a role in this bill's defeat would be turning a blind eye to all exit polling done in the state of California. In a state that is OVERWELMINGLY liberal (61% to 37% for President), I would be very curious as to what you believe made this bill pass by over half a million votes.

[crb]

First Barack Obama is to blame for worsening the financial crisis.

Now Barack Obama is to blame for banning gay marriage.

Man if you thought liberals were a group of cry babies blaming everything on George Bush... the next 4 years will be pure comedy.

I heard Barack Obama kills kittens too.
I've a question, are you happy living in blissful ignorance? You seem to ignore all the people in the financial world attributing fear of higher taxes to selling on Wall Street, now you ignore all the voter statistics showing that minority groups voted from Prop 8 higher than whites, or that Barack Obama's historic candidacy increased minority voter turnout?

None of this is a big hidden secret, it is all readily available, out there, all you gotta do is open your eyes, take the blinders off, put the beer goggles down.

http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:xoO6hoyQhjQJ:www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27584685/+proposition+8+minority+voters&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Note, this is not Fox News, this is MSNBC.



Any notion that Tuesday's election represented a liberal juggernaut must overcome a detail from the voting booths of California: The same voters who turned out strongest for Barack Obama also drove a stake through the heart of same-sex marriage.

Seven in 10 African Americans who went to the polls voted yes on Proposition 8, the ballot measure overruling a state Supreme Court judgment that legalized same-sex marriage and brought 18,000 gay and lesbian couples to Golden State courthouses in the past six months.

Similar measures passed easily in Florida and Arizona. It was closer in California, but no ethnic group anywhere rejected the sanctioning of same-sex unions as emphatically as the state's black voters, according to exit polls. Fifty-three percent of Latinos also backed Proposition 8, overcoming the bare majority of white Californians who voted to let the court ruling stand


It has been said that if Barack Obama had not been running, had minority turnout been lower, the proposition would have failed.

[Ravenstorm]

Pretending that Obama and his supporters didn't play a role in this bill's defeat would be turning a blind eye to all exit polling done in the state of California. In a state that is OVERWELMINGLY liberal (61% to 37% for President), I would be very curious as to what you believe made this bill pass by over half a million votes.

The same exit polls that showed that the greater majority of black voters voted in favor of Prop 8 also showed:

The greater majority of voters over the age of 65 voted in favor of it.
People who said they attended religious services weekly were overwhelmingly voting for the measure.

Given that the proposition was failing until the Mormons decided to funnel over 20 million dollars into it and ran ads about how same-sex marriage will mean your priests being arrested for preaching against homosexuality, I think which group was the deciding factor is pretty clear.

Edited to add it wasn't just the Mormons funding the disinformation campaign but every 2 out of 3 dollars spent on the Yes on 8 campaign came from them. The churches in general are all guilty of the lies and scare tactics used to win.

[Gan]

Hypocrisy is pretty frequent in politics. If we tried to discuss every single example we still wouldn't find them all. I'm sure you didn't discuss fundraising in 2000 or 2004.
And yet should examples of such be muted from being brought up here? Or is this a free discussion forum?


Pretending that Obama and his supporters didn't play a role in this bill's defeat would be turning a blind eye to all exit polling done in the state of California. In a state that is OVERWELMINGLY liberal (61% to 37% for President), I would be very curious as to what you believe made this bill pass by over half a million votes.
/Agree

(Guilt by association?)

[Parkbandit]

The same exit polls that showed that the greater majority of black voters voted in favor of Prop 8 also showed:

The greater majority of voters over the age of 65 voted in favor of it.
People who said they attended religious services weekly were overwhelmingly voting for the measure.

Given that the proposition was failing until the Mormons decided to funnel over 20 million dollars into it and ran ads about how same-sex marriage will mean your priests being arrested for preaching against homosexuality, I think which group was the deciding factor is pretty clear.

Edited to add it wasn't just the Mormons funding the disinformation campaign but every 2 out of 3 dollars spent on the Yes on 8 campaign came from them. The churches in general are all guilty of the lies and scare tactics used to win.


Again.. you are clearly missing the point and since it's been posted now about 10 times, it's clear you won't get or just conveniently don't want to get the point. The measure was defeated by the liberals, plain and simple. Continue to pretend they are a party of inclusion... regardless of what the actual votes stated. Had the liberals simply voted the way you believe they wanted to... they had MORE than enough votes to get it passed. If this was Texas or Oklahoma or Alabama.. then you might have a point. But it wasn't.. it was the Socialist Republic of California.

Stop trying to blame other groups for your own party's stupidity.

[Ravenstorm]

I'm not missing the point at all. Liberals are not some monolithic entity any more than conservatives are. Failing to support equal rights for gays does not get their Liberal Identification Card taken away from them any more than being pro-choice loses you your Conservative Credentials (except perhaps to the fanatics of the party).

Simply put, Prop 8 was phrased by its proponents as an issue that would threaten their religious freedom. Many liberals, despite what the religious right likes to believe, are religious. Many liberals, as many conservatives like to believe, are also ignorant and uneducated. Their votes on top of the Republican conservative's votes passed the proposition.

Its failure can't be laid at the feet of any one single racial demographic. That might not be what's being argued here and if it's not, then sorry, I was missing the point. For the last few days I've been reading a lot of shit ranging from the angry to the out and out racist blaming the blacks for it and it seemed like that was being argued here as well.

Ah, it was crb who brought it up:

...now you ignore all the voter statistics showing that minority groups voted from Prop 8 higher than whites, or that Barack Obama's historic candidacy increased minority voter turnout?

[Gan]

Simply put, Prop 8 was phrased by its proponents as an issue that would threaten their religious freedom. Many liberals, despite what the religious right likes to believe, are religious. Many liberals, as many conservatives like to believe, are also ignorant and uneducated. Their votes on top of the Republican conservative's votes passed the proposition.

So you're saying that the liberal majority in CA was duped? Or too stupid to recognize the significance of supporting such a measure in a state where there happen to be a huge number (majority) of liberal voters?

[Parkbandit]

I didn't realize that liberals were now considered a race. I lay the blame of Prop 8's defeat squarely on their shoulders.

[Parkbandit]

So you're saying that the liberal majority in CA was duped? Or too stupid to recognize the significance of supporting such a measure in a state where there happen to be a huge number (majority) of liberal voters?


Let's be honest.. it's not that difficult to dupe liberals. The dumbest President ever by their opinion, did it not once but twice.

[Ravenstorm]

So you're saying that the liberal majority in CA was duped? Or too stupid to recognize the significance of supporting such a measure in a state where there happen to be a huge number (majority) of liberal voters?

No, I'm saying religious hysteria and bigotry won the day. Both of those exist in the so-called liberal camp as well.

[Necromancer]

What really bugs about this thread is that after being handed a horrible defeat that broke hearts, all this asshole (V) could think to do was write a thread trying to criticize the people who've been hurt.

I love that V swears he's pro-gay rights, but all he's managed to do so far in the threads around this subject is criticize the no on 8 folks for pointing out how much money and support the opposition had and, in another thread, calling gays abberations. If that's your idea of gay rights, you're more far gone than we realized.

Seriously dude, just fuck off. I may be wholly against gay marriage, but I can recognize people in pain and act accordingly- something you are wholly unwilling to do. Are you even made of human parts? Human suffering has NEVER factored into any of your political analysis on these boards, leading me to believe that you are actually incapable of relating to a group of people who are not you.

[crb]

I'm not missing the point at all. Liberals are not some monolithic entity any more than conservatives are. Failing to support equal rights for gays does not get their Liberal Identification Card taken away from them any more than being pro-choice loses you your Conservative Credentials (except perhaps to the fanatics of the party).

Simply put, Prop 8 was phrased by its proponents as an issue that would threaten their religious freedom. Many liberals, despite what the religious right likes to believe, are religious. Many liberals, as many conservatives like to believe, are also ignorant and uneducated. Their votes on top of the Republican conservative's votes passed the proposition.

Its failure can't be laid at the feet of any one single racial demographic. That might not be what's being argued here and if it's not, then sorry, I was missing the point. For the last few days I've been reading a lot of shit ranging from the angry to the out and out racist blaming the blacks for it and it seemed like that was being argued here as well.

Ah, it was crb who brought it up:
That is right, IRL I'm the editor of the Washington Post and numerous other newspapers, magazines, and television newsrooms. I am all powerful, I control what is reported. Bow to me!

Ya, so, I posted the story here, that doesn't mean I made it up.

[Ravenstorm]

Ya, so, I posted the story here, that doesn't mean I made it up.

Dumbass, are you capable of reading? I said you brought it up not made it up.

[Parkbandit]

What really bugs about this thread is that after being handed a horrible defeat that broke hearts, all this asshole (V) could think to do was write a thread trying to criticize the people who've been hurt.

I love that V swears he's pro-gay rights, but all he's managed to do so far in the threads around this subject is criticize the no on 8 folks for pointing out how much money and support the opposition had and, in another thread, calling gays abberations. If that's your idea of gay rights, you're more far gone than we realized.

Seriously dude, just fuck off. I may be wholly against gay marriage, but I can recognize people in pain and act accordingly- something you are wholly unwilling to do. Are you even made of human parts? Human suffering has NEVER factored into any of your political analysis on these boards, leading me to believe that you are actually incapable of relating to a group of people who are not you.

You sound more butthurt (hahah.. yea) than anything else. You are the perfect liberal mouthpiece though.. when the facts just don't support your argument, use the whole "You are heartless! You are a sexist! You must be a robot!" reasoning.

I'm very much pro-gay rights and even though I'm 100% straight, I have an almost exclusively gay workforce and can sympathise with their fight. I even put a "Vote NO on Amendment 2" poster in my yard. All that said, it doesn't change the facts about what crb posted. Being gay is aberration, if you believe in evolution. A species cannot survive if they can't reproduce. If you consider that hate speech and not a proven fact, then I feel really badly for your ignorance.

[crb]

What really bugs about this thread is that after being handed a horrible defeat that broke hearts, all this asshole (V) could think to do was write a thread trying to criticize the people who've been hurt.

I love that V swears he's pro-gay rights, but all he's managed to do so far in the threads around this subject is criticize the no on 8 folks for pointing out how much money and support the opposition had and, in another thread, calling gays abberations. If that's your idea of gay rights, you're more far gone than we realized.

Seriously dude, just fuck off. I may be wholly against gay marriage, but I can recognize people in pain and act accordingly- something you are wholly unwilling to do. Are you even made of human parts? Human suffering has NEVER factored into any of your political analysis on these boards, leading me to believe that you are actually incapable of relating to a group of people who are not you.
Things I have a problem with.

1. Hypocrites.

2. People who use violence or threats of violence to further a political agenda.

3. Socialists. Not that its relevant to this discussion, but ya, I don't like socialists.

So, yes, you're right, I don't feel sorry for the gay activists who hypocritically supported Barack Obama without a peep of the unfairness of him going back on his word with financing, his mountains of money that he got without transparency allowing us to know where it is from, and his army of volunteers, while at the same time bitching about money that is fully transparent and volunteers from a group opposed to them. I don't feel sorry for the gay activists who are threatening violent protests against the Mormon church over a political issue.

Finally I also don't feel sorry for the gay activists who want respect for their lifestyle but cannot at all respect the beliefs of others. Yes, it is wrong for someone to push their religious beliefs onto others, but you gotta be realistic and a little more practical and a little more understand when you're going up against a majority. When you've got in your face gay activists purposefully trying to make the christian right uncomfortable, when you've got the mayor of San Francisco going on a tirade about how gay marriage is here to stay and people better learn to deal with it. It is like kicking a lion in the balls. Really fucking dumb. Understand that maybe if you were a little less aggressive people would feel less threatened by you.

That is why those ads saying preachers will be sued, and churches will be forced to marry people, worked. Because the gay activist community has been very aggressive and very in your face with their activities and people saw that as the next step.


I feel sorry for the nice gay couple who have been together for years and cannot get married unless they do so before what? January 1st? I feel even more sorry for the nice gay couple who haven't even met yet because they'll never have the chance until the law changes (which'll be hard, but not impossible, Barack Obama doesn't run every time).

I don't feel sorry for the in your face, hypocritical, potentially violent gay activists to whom this thread was addressed.

[crb]

and oh, when I had a chance to vote on a gay marriage ban, I voted against it. It passed still, but not with the help of my vote.

[Kranar]

I find it hilarious that people can say with a straight face Barack Obama is to blame for the opposition to gay marriage.

Anyhow the raw figures (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1) are as follows with respect to Prop 8 in California:

Ideology, Yes, No
Liberals (26%): 22% 78%
Moderate (44%): 47% 53%
Conservative (30%): 85% 15%

Seems pretty clear that those who identify as liberals voted heavily against it, those who identify as moderate had a mostly split vote but mostly voted against it, and those who identify as conservative voted heavily in favor of it.

If you go by party identification it's as follows:

Party, Yes, No
Democrat (42%), 36%, 64%
Republican (29%), 82%, 18%
Independent (28%), 46%, 54%

Oh, I'm sorry, I guess because Barack Obama is black, and because black people who make up only 10% of the vote voted 70/30 in favor, that must mean that Barack Obama is to blame.

[Proxy]

and oh, when I had a chance to vote on a gay marriage ban, I voted against it. It passed still, but not with the help of my vote.

V have you ever considered running for Pres, seriously you have all the low brow qualities that would ensure your eligibility.

Fickle
Crass
Opportunistic
Attention Whore
Self Important
Egomaniacal
Loud Mouthed
wait... wait... ...

...V are you secretly Hilary Clinton???

Edit: Or Sarah Palin maybe?

[Parkbandit]

I find it hilarious that people can say with a straight face Barack Obama is to blame for the opposition to gay marriage.

Anyhow the raw figures (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1) are as follows with respect to Prop 8 in California:

Ideology, Yes, No
Liberals (26%): 22% 78%
Moderate (44%): 47% 53%
Conservative (30%): 85% 15%

Seems pretty clear that those who identify as liberals voted heavily against it, those who identify as moderate had a mostly split vote but mostly voted against it, and those who identify as conservative voted heavily in favor of it.

If you go by party identification it's as follows:

Party, Yes, No
Democrat (42%), 36%, 64%
Republican (29%), 82%, 18%
Independent (28%), 46%, 54%

Oh, I'm sorry, I guess because Barack Obama is black, and because black people who make up only 10% of the vote voted 70/30 in favor, that must mean that Barack Obama is to blame.


No one is blaming Obama.. especially since he can't legally vote in California.

But the state is simply OVERWELMINGLY liberal. Look at the huge win Obama was given in the state. They simply didn't vote for a very liberal idea of gay marriage. Had the same people that voted for Obama, voted no against banning gay marriage, it would have passed very easily, regardless of any religious group or the money they spent.

[Daniel]

Overwhelming is 46% to 29 and 28?

[crb]

I find it hilarious that people can say with a straight face Barack Obama is to blame for the opposition to gay marriage.

Anyhow the raw figures (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1) are as follows with respect to Prop 8 in California:

Ideology, Yes, No
Liberals (26%): 22% 78%
Moderate (44%): 47% 53%
Conservative (30%): 85% 15%

Seems pretty clear that those who identify as liberals voted heavily against it, those who identify as moderate had a mostly split vote but mostly voted against it, and those who identify as conservative voted heavily in favor of it.

If you go by party identification it's as follows:

Party, Yes, No
Democrat (42%), 36%, 64%
Republican (29%), 82%, 18%
Independent (28%), 46%, 54%

Oh, I'm sorry, I guess because Barack Obama is black, and because black people who make up only 10% of the vote voted 70/30 in favor, that must mean that Barack Obama is to blame.
You should write a letter to the editor to the Washington Post etc then if you feel so strongly that their story was ridiculous.

[Kranar]

No one is blaming Obama.. especially since he can't legally vote in California.


If you want to argue that there are pockets of supporters of Barack Obama, in particular blacks, who are against gay marriage, then yes, you are correct. I am not defending how the black community voted, in fact I think it's shameful.

What I found hilarious was crb saying that Obama is partially responsible for the defeat of proposition 8, as if somehow if it were not for Obama, proposition 8 would have been defeated. This coupled with him earlier mentioning how the financial crisis is being worsened because of Obama because that's what he's been spoon fed by his sources on CNBC.

The bottom line is that the one demographic that voted heavy in favor of prop 8. were not liberals, or Democrats/Obama supporters, the polling clearly shows it was conservatives as a whole who favored prop 8, far more than African Americans, Latinos etc...

There is this argument that Obama helped to get out the black vote, that's just disingenuous cherry picking of information. Obama helped get out the vote of liberals in general, which yes, includes black people, includes people who are against gay marriage, but also includes people who are supportive of it.

For one, black people only made up 10% of the vote, so it's dubious at best to jump to conclusions about how much more of an effect Obama had on that community. Assuming that Obama increased voter turnout amongst black people from 5% to 10%, which means he got twice as many black people to vote than would have otherwise, the bill would have still passed.

Anyhow, my main point against crb is to point out the insincerity in his posting. His ability to cherry pick info and cleverly sneak it into his posts. I think most people on the forums realized this when he tried to blame Obama for the worsening of the financial crisis and was mocked for it, but the constant spamming of trivial information, hand picking quotes he read on a blog or some 24/7 cable news source that are very weak and dubious and using them to paint a picture of the opposing viewpoint as somehow responsible for all that is wrong in the world... it's dramatic, yes, it's even effective, but it's nevertheless such unreasonable BS.

[Proxy]

Here is an idea, lets all just...


LOL Virilneus

[Parkbandit]

Here is an idea, lets all just...


LOL Virilneus

Here's an idea.. debate the points with facts or at least opinions regarding what he brought up here?

[crb]

Didn't you say your own boss was concerned about Obama's tax policy affecting the markets Kranar?

How much koolaid have you actually drunk? Do you think tax policy has no bearing on investment decisions?

Every day since the election it has been discussed on CNBC by a wide variety of people? What? Now you ridicule the leading business news channel as a bad source? Should I be watching Fox Business Channel instead?

To give another example of how Barack Obama's tax policies are affecting investing decisions. Municipal Bond funds and master limited partnerships are getting renewed interest because of their tax benefits (no or deferred taxes). Municipal bond funds typically pay lower yields than other types of bonds , the tradeoff being they're typically tax free. So if your yield is 6% but your tax rate would otherwise say 15% then you're really making 6.9% yield (as compared to other investment options). Now pretend your tax rate goes up to 30% or 40% (Because I don't want to do 39.6% math). At 30% you're making ~7.95%, at 40% you're making 8.4%. So, under an Obama tax plan (taxing dividends as regular income, moving brackets up, for the high bracket), a 6% muni bond instantly gets a 1.5% increase (6.9 to 8.4) in effective yield because of the tax benefit. So it makes it a more attractive investment.

Is it entirely a coincidence that when Obama was gaining in the polls, the market was plummeting, when it started to tighten, the market recovered, when he won, we lost 10% in 2 days? Sure, there are other reasons for all those moves, I've never said he was the main reason, as much as you'd like to think so. But he is a contributing reason, that is the truth, everyone knows it. To think that federal tax policy does not influence investing decisions, is, quite frankly, crazy.

Now, as far as prop 8 goes.

Fact 1: Minorities voted disproportionately for it.

Fact 2: Barack Obama's historical candidacy increased minority voter turnout.

This story has been all over all the news channels, newspapers, etc, I did not create it, I did not write it, I did not approve it. So I guess those liberal editors at WaPo are cherry picking info and sneaking it into articles to paint an opposing viewpoint?

The fact is Kranar, you've shown time and again a pretty heavy Obama infatuation, any post/thread/or topic that in any way shows anything negative against your messiah you've got a problem with. Your response when confronted with facts like... investor sentiments or voter turnout is to blame the messenger.

I think it'd be best, for your own sake, if you could just take a step back, and say to yourself "Barack Obama is not 100% good in everything he does and with everything he touches." and you could accept that maybe, just maybe, there could be negative fallout from his candidacy and election. Just maybe? Just a little bit?

[Kefka]

These grapes are really sour today!

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l131/robinblak/bfail.jpg

[Warriorbird]

Here's an idea.. debate the points with facts or at least opinions regarding what he brought up here?

Never stopped you, me, or a bunch of other people.

[Ravenstorm]

Or just post a GIF.

[crb]

http://www.crazyforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/obama-kool-aid.jpg

Don't drink it.

[Proxy]

Here's an idea.. debate the points with facts or at least opinions regarding what he brought up here?

Did you take your pills today? Seriously, trying to debate anything w/ fact or fiction against V is like trying to dig for gold up a monkeys ass. And this abovementioned monkey likes it... So stop validating his arguments by arguing, because like any good idiot he will only drag you down to his level and beat you w/ experience.


They only won because... 11-09-2008 06:06 PM Who the fuck ARE you? Besides a raging pissant


Someone that knows a wasted/pointless effort when he sees one & a wasted/pointless meat bag.

PS: I'd rather be a pissant then a flaming hypocritical bigot with a greased up baseball bat wedged in their ass, a chip the size of Alaska on their shoulder and an axe to grind w/ anyone that doesn't think they are G-d's gift to man kind.

LOL Virilneus

[Kranar]

Didn't you say your own boss was concerned about Obama's tax policy affecting the markets Kranar?


I am the boss. I started my own company that guess what... engages in algorithmic trading on the stock market. I've made more money in a year than I ever thought I'd make in a lifetime, especially because of this financial crisis, so no, I could care less what Obama does because quite frankly anyone whose business model is so weak that it's intricately dependent on a single or narrow political ideology is destined to go bust eventually anyways.

We have CNBC running in the background along with all of the other news networks for when announcements are made or for when Bernanke is giving some talk, but 95% of the time the crap on these channels makes for good entertainment value.

Watching any of these 24/7 cable news networks you're going to find information to substantiate whatever freaking argument you damn well please. You can argue that there is an army of people who are going to sell because they think Obama is going to turn the U.S of A into a communist country, and you can find an army of people (Warren Buffet and George Soros included in this army) who are going to buy because they think Obama is Jesus Christ reincarnated.

That you choose to filter out what you want to hear, give more credibility to stories that fit your view of the world, doesn't surprise me one bit. But if you think your precious CNBC isn't spewing absolute BS on both sides of the issue, dramatizing every new piece of information like it's the gospel and you need to stay tuned in or else you're going to miss out... then the joke is on you.

[Kranar]

The fact is Kranar, you've shown time and again a pretty heavy Obama infatuation, any post/thread/or topic that in any way shows anything negative against your messiah you've got a problem with. Your response when confronted with facts like... investor sentiments or voter turnout is to blame the messenger.


Yes, let's see who is more obsessed with Obama... is it me who in the past 3 months has made 9 posts about Obama (an average of 1 post every 10 days), or is it you who in the past 3 months has made 207 posts about him (an average of 2.3 posts a day).

If anyone needs to take a step back and settle down a little, it ain't me.

[Daniel]

Kranar 1

CRB: -12

[Parkbandit]

Yes, let's see who is more obsessed with Obama... is it me who in the past 3 months has made 9 posts about Obama (an average of 1 post every 10 days), or is it you who in the past 3 months has made 207 posts about him (an average of 2.3 posts a day).

If anyone needs to take a step back and settle down a little, it ain't me.


For someone who prides himself on statistics.. you just failed miserably. I suppose because I've only gone grocery shopping twice in the past 3 months, I somehow eat less than my wife who probably went 75 times?

[Parkbandit]

Wait.. by this measure, you are also more obsessed about Obama than my sister, who worked on the campaign, called people at home about Obama, stuck stupid lawn signs all over town and is probably going to the inauguration... because you posted 9x as much as she did on this forum.

[Kranar]

Wait.. by this measure, you are also more obsessed about Obama than my sister, who worked on the campaign, called people at home about Obama, stuck stupid lawn signs all over town and is probably going to the inauguration... because you posted 9x as much as she did on this forum.


And you just failed miserably at math.

[Parkbandit]

And you just failed miserably at math.

OMG BECAUSE 9 X 0 = 0! U R RIGHT!

Damn.. I guess you don't have your head shoved up Obama's ass like I first thought. My apologies.

/italics

[crb]

I am the boss. I started my own company that guess what... engages in algorithmic trading on the stock market. I've made more money in a year than I ever thought I'd make in a lifetime, especially because of this financial crisis, so no, I could care less what Obama does because quite frankly anyone whose business model is so weak that it's intricately dependent on a single or narrow political ideology is destined to go bust eventually anyways.

We have CNBC running in the background along with all of the other news networks for when announcements are made or for when Bernanke is giving some talk, but 95% of the time the crap on these channels makes for good entertainment value.

Watching any of these 24/7 cable news networks you're going to find information to substantiate whatever freaking argument you damn well please. You can argue that there is an army of people who are going to sell because they think Obama is going to turn the U.S of A into a communist country, and you can find an army of people (Warren Buffet and George Soros included in this army) who are going to buy because they think Obama is Jesus Christ reincarnated.

That you choose to filter out what you want to hear, give more credibility to stories that fit your view of the world, doesn't surprise me one bit. But if you think your precious CNBC isn't spewing absolute BS on both sides of the issue, dramatizing every new piece of information like it's the gospel and you need to stay tuned in or else you're going to miss out... then the joke is on you.
That is all rather irrelevant isn't it? I mean, we're a pretty evenly split 50/50 country aren't we? There will be people who agree with me that Obama's tax policy (assuming he doesn't change it more, which he probably will, considering he has changed it 4 times since the primaries began) will be bad for business, bad for jobs, bad for the economy.

Then there will be the 50% of people who, like Warren Buffet, see tax policy as primarily a means of redistribution of wealth or fairness. Warren Buffet saying it isn't fair his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does.

That is the difference between liberals and conservatives (fiscally). Conservatives see tax policy as a tool to create economic growth, the number one thing they look at when deciding on tax policy is "how will this grow the economy." Liberals look at tax policy through the lense of "fairness" and their main driver when setting tax policy is how to make it more "fair" - fair being, generally, having the poor pay as little as possible and the rich paying as much as possible.

We all know that, right? We all know where the two parties stand, we all know that the country is pretty evenly split, we all know that we can find both points represented by experts.

The difference between me and you is I'm not accusing you of making your shit up, of manufacturing it, of cleverly sneaking data in, and everything else you're accusing me of. I know you're merely arguing the talking points from the other side, because I've seen them, and I've heard them, and I know that some people out there believe them.

Apparently though you don't read the news much, or watch much, because you're solidly convinced that my position is completely made up and manufactured by little old me?

And, quite frankly Kranar, would 50% of people out there fearing an Obama tax policy be enough to move the markets lower? 50% of people out there who fear an increase in taxes on investment capital? Would not that result in selling, would not that move the markets lower? You don't need 100% of people to be fearful for the same reason do have an impact do you? Be honest. If only 10% of investors sell and reposition because of fear over an Obama tax policy you will see an impact, if only 5%, 2%. Tell me I'm lying.

Also, for those who don't know I'll point out what we both know. Your business does not rely on the stock market doing well. The type of arbitrage you do is based on volatility and so you actually benefit in a way from fear and uncertainty. You're not really an investor, you're a trader, so because you're not afraid of Obama doesn't mean investors aren't.

[CrystalTears]

For someone who prides himself on statistics.. you just failed miserably. I suppose because I've only gone grocery shopping twice in the past 3 months, I somehow eat less than my wife who probably went 75 times?
Aside from this making no sense, if anyone has been Obama obsessed it's been crb and Mabus who haven't been able to shut up about him, moreso than several of the Obama supporters. So there is some validity to Kranar's claim that the one who won't let it go is not Kranar.

[Keller]

For someone who prides himself on statistics.. you just failed miserably. I suppose because I've only gone grocery shopping twice in the past 3 months, I somehow eat less than my wife who probably went 75 times?

I hope, for your sake, that this post was an isolated senior moment.

Make sure you your B12 today.

[Keller]

Wait.. by this measure, you are also more obsessed about Obama than my sister, who worked on the campaign, called people at home about Obama, stuck stupid lawn signs all over town and is probably going to the inauguration... because you posted 9x as much as she did on this forum.

Does your sister lurk?

Is she hot?

[Parkbandit]

Aside from this making no sense, if anyone has been Obama obsessed it's been crb and Mabus who haven't been able to shut up about him, moreso than several of the Obama supporters. So there is some validity to Kranar's claim that the one who won't let it go is not Kranar.


It makes as much sense as Kranar's claim that crb is somehow more obsessed with Obama than he is.

[crb]

Aside from this making no sense, if anyone has been Obama obsessed it's been crb and Mabus who haven't been able to shut up about him, moreso than several of the Obama supporters. So there is some validity to Kranar's claim that the one who won't let it go is not Kranar.
its not about the volume, it is about the content.

Obviously I post more than Kranar, but Kranar only seems to be post when someone implies Obama is anything but 100% good for everything he touches.

Typically he'll show up a couple pages into a thread and come down, usually not addressing the topic, but attacking whomever is saying bad things about Obama.

"You're stupid for thinking Obama is bad."

"Well I got this information here."

"Your information is wrong."

"You sure, I know you hate Fox News, but this is the New York Times"

"The New York Times is a Right Wing Rag WAA WAA. Oh, and you're bigoted conservative republican racist. "

He doesn't seem to be very open minded.

[Tsa`ah]

The man hasn't even been sworn in yet ... but is getting more blame for current issues than the current administration.

Since very early in the morning of the 5th I've had a smile on my face. Even though we counted, re-counted, and then counted again, the votes for a constitutional convention .... I've been smiling.

Still can't get some of the crops out of the fields ... I've been smiling. Down to 75 gallons of filtered uvo and it looks like I'm going to have to hunt a bit harder for it than normal ... still smiling.

My taxes, on all fronts, will likely go up ... I'm smiling. My home lost 13% of it's assessed value from four years ago ... I'm smiling.

Even though prop 8 passed ... I've been smiling. Even though I had tickets for the field at Grant Park on the 5th and I wasn't able to go (because of re-counts) ... I've been smiling.

Why?

A good chunk of it has to do with the man I voted for, the man I decided to get behind, campaign for, donate to ... the man that inspired me to do more even though I was already doing ... becoming the president elect.

Part of it is prop 8. Not that it passed, but because it's passage is driving home the lesson of civil rights in minority communities. Because it's passing is bringing that microscope of church vs state to bear on churches and out of state funds funneled through churches to impact state proceedings. Prop 8 is going to fail, there's no doubt in my mind ... and that makes me smile.

No, no ... the smile remains glued to my face largely because I see the machine on the right grinding to a halt. It's imploding and the people that associate with that machine are lost. The words coming out of their mouths don't really make sense. There's blame, there's excuse, there's more stretching for the most obscure answer/reason ... it's down right comedy.

I've just the smallest bit of advice for you tools.

Suck it up and strap yourself in cupcake ... it's going to be the longest four years of your life with a good possibility of it turning into eight.

[CrystalTears]

Okay then. If you and Mabus say that you're not obsessed with Obama, then you're probably not.

But I do feel the volumn (and content) of threads and posts stating how much of an antichrist Obama is outweighs the messiah comments you're implying from his supporters.

[Keller]

He doesn't seem to be very open minded.

. . . in a thread started on the premise of others' hypocricy.

[Daniel]

Wait.. by this measure, you are also more obsessed about Obama than my sister, who worked on the campaign, called people at home about Obama, stuck stupid lawn signs all over town and is probably going to the inauguration... because you posted 9x as much as she did on this forum.

God damn this is a lot of fail.

[Parkbandit]

God damn this is a lot of fail.

But still not even in the same realm of epic failure as my two examples in my signature.

Sorry :(

You are still the King.

[Daniel]

But still not even in the same realm of epic failure as my two examples in my signature.

Sorry :(

You are still the King.

Totally got me.

[Inspire]

I stopped reading after the second page.

Having said that, I've heard reports that the Mormon Church used Church funds to oppose Prop 8. Is this true?

If so, they need to lose their tax-free status.

While I'm on the subject, all churches should be taxed. There is no reason not to tax churches because they obviously do use their congregations to further their own political values.

[Warriorbird]

Definitely tax churches for non charitably based actions/income.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I stopped reading after the second page.

Having said that, I've heard reports that the Mormon Church used Church funds to oppose Prop 8. Is this true?

If so, they need to lose their tax-free status.

While I'm on the subject, all churches should be taxed. There is no reason not to tax churches because they obviously do use their congregations to further their own political values.

/agree

If they don't want the government involved in their churches, they need their churches to stay the hell out of the government.

[Apathy]

I love crb's threads. He has gotta be the best role player on these boards.

[crb]

I thought about not resurrecting this thread and yet.... this happened 2 miles from my house.

http://blog.mlive.com/minorityreport/2008/11/bash_back_bashes_lansing_churc.html

These are the people I don't feel sorry for.

Also, I question their manifesto.



2. A rejection of Capitalism, Imperialism, and all forms of State power.

I wonder if they know that the opposite of capitalism IS more State power.

Some of these anarchist groups crack me up. Like the goth kids on South Park, they don't have an underlying vision, they're just against anything that is popular.

[g++]

I thought about not resurrecting this thread and yet.... this happened 2 miles from my house.

http://blog.mlive.com/minorityreport/2008/11/bash_back_bashes_lansing_churc.html

These are the people I don't feel sorry for.


Im not being political or trying to rationalize anything but sometimes sitting in church on Sunday hung over and bored I would pay like a million dollars for that to happen.

[crb]

Its been many years since I've been to church, but indeed, it would be interesting - but you gotta put yourself in the shoes of a parent. It isn't right. What if junior had to go to the bathroom?

[g++]

Id like to think it would be a father son moment where I taught my son to point and laugh in my minds eye, but I dont have kids so I dont rightly know how I would react. I think if a kid is old enough to know what the silly pink people are talking about their probarbly already informed.

Obviously it was the wrong thing to do but the article makes it sound so absurd its hard to even take it seriously as a protest, it reads more like a joke.

[Mabus]

/agree

If they don't want the government involved in their churches, they need their churches to stay the hell out of the government.

70% of African-Americans and 51% of Latinos voted for Prop 8.

Many black churches and Catholic churches were also for the amendment, with some black churches putting out fliers with Obama's face and his message "I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix."

Why is it only the Mormons being brought up?

I am all for taxing all churches.

[g++]

70% of African-Americans and 51% of Latinos voted for Prop 8.

Many black churches and Catholic churches were also for the amendment, with some black churches putting out fliers with Obama's face and his message "I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian — for me — for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God’s in the mix."

Why is it only the Mormons being brought up?

I am all for taxing all churches.

Javynn, would that effect religious based soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and rehabilitation programs?

[g++]

err Jordynn rather

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I am all for taxing all churches.

Since obviously I didn't make it clear enough for you: any church that gets directly involved in politics, should lose tax-exempt status.

Also, lol @ Obama story. You wanna talk about other people having hard-ons for Obama?

[Mabus]

Also, lol @ Obama story. You wanna talk about other people having hard-ons for Obama?
It was a statement of fact. That statement of his, and other statements of his, were used to promote Prop 8.

It has also been proposed that the increased turnout in the Latino and African-American community during the election was one factor in amending the CA Constitution against recognizing gay marriage.

But skip the facts and blame the Mormons, if that makes you feel better.

[g++]

Who is blaming Mormons? I have not heard that anywhere...

ps I just cracked 1,000 posts yay

[Mabus]

Who is blaming Mormons? I have not heard that anywhere...

ps I just cracked 1,000 posts yay

I replied to a post by the Narc that was replying to:

I stopped reading after the second page.

Having said that, I've heard reports that the Mormon Church used Church funds to oppose Prop 8. Is this true?

If so, they need to lose their tax-free status.

While I'm on the subject, all churches should be taxed. There is no reason not to tax churches because they obviously do use their congregations to further their own political values.
Hope that helps.

[Warriorbird]

30 million dollars does not equal nothing.

[Mabus]

30 million dollars does not equal nothing.
Can you reference the post you were replying to...?

[g++]

I replied to a post by the Narc that was replying to:

Hope that helps.

Ah I read that page too and missed it. Sometimes I think my eyes just gloss over posts with no avatar. Anyway I dont know much about it but if the Mormon church actually did fund a referendum they should at the very least be taxed on the money they did donate. I dont think persecuting all churchs is the answer, churchs do a lot for communities that I dont think anyone wants to see pushed into the governments lap.

[Warriorbird]

All the posts attempting to suggest that the Mormon church played no role in this at all? If you think 30 million dollars is insignificant... please direct it my way.

[g++]

All the posts attempting to suggest that the Mormon church played no role in this at all? If you think 30 million dollars is insignificant... please direct it my way.

Heh I wasn't saying that, I just said I had not heard about it and asked where it was coming from.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

It was a statement of fact. That statement of his, and other statements of his, were used to promote Prop 8.

It has also been proposed that the increased turnout in the Latino and African-American community during the election was one factor in amending the CA Constitution against recognizing gay marriage.

But skip the facts and blame the Mormons, if that makes you feel better.

I didn't blame the Mormon church alone. Again, to make it perfectly clear so I don't have to draw you a fucking picture: religious groups that involve themselves in politics should lose tax-exempt status, IMO. RELIGIOUS GROUPS, not "JUST MORMONS".

It was a statement about religious organizations getting involved, not the fact that yes, there was a ton of minority support for Prop 8. Again though, minority involvement is not what I was referencing at all. It's not about minorities, it's about religious groups. Seriously, what else are you looking for me to say? Religious groups AND minorities (???) should lose their tax-exempt status!11

[Mabus]

Again, to make it perfectly clear so I don't have to draw you a fucking picture:
Such venom and hate...

Calm down. Have a cup of chamomile tea.
:love:

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Ah I read that page too and missed it. Sometimes I think my eyes just gloss over posts with no avatar. Anyway I dont know much about it but if the Mormon church actually did fund a referendum they should at the very least be taxed on the money they did donate. I dont think persecuting all churchs is the answer, churchs do a lot for communities that I dont think anyone wants to see pushed into the governments lap.

I don't think we should persecute all churches, I just think that there should be a clear line between religion and politics and when a church steps over that line and tries to involve themselves in politics, they need to pay the price-- literally, by paying taxes.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Such venom and hate...

Calm down. Have a cup of chamomile tea.
:love:

I don't hate you Mabus, but when you're purposefully obtuse I would dearly love to batter you with a large trout.

:hug2:

[g++]

I don't think we should persecute all churches, I just think that there should be a clear line between religion and politics and when a church steps over that line and tries to involve themselves in politics, they need to pay the price-- literally, by paying taxes.

Yah we agree, mostly speaking to Mabus I think.

[crb]

I didn't blame the Mormon church alone. Again, to make it perfectly clear so I don't have to draw you a fucking picture: religious groups that involve themselves in politics should lose tax-exempt status, IMO. RELIGIOUS GROUPS, not "JUST MORMONS".

It was a statement about religious organizations getting involved, not the fact that yes, there was a ton of minority support for Prop 8. Again though, minority involvement is not what I was referencing at all. It's not about minorities, it's about religious groups. Seriously, what else are you looking for me to say? Religious groups AND minorities (???) should lose their tax-exempt status!11
Just religious groups? Or non-profits of all colors?

Personally... what grinds my gears is Indian tribes. If you want to live on your reservation with your casino and be exempt from taxes, you don't get to run ads in elections.

[Daniel]

Just religious groups? Or non-profits of all colors?

Personally... what grinds my gears is Indian tribes. If you want to live on your reservation with your casino and be exempt from taxes, you don't get to run ads in elections.

You know there's a reason why Indians get to "live on their reservations and be exempt from taxes" right?

[ViridianAsp]

I don't think we should persecute all churches, I just think that there should be a clear line between religion and politics and when a church steps over that line and tries to involve themselves in politics, they need to pay the price-- literally, by paying taxes.

That would be pretty much every religious order. I have to say, even though I do not agree with the Mormons on prop 8, they do a lot for the community. It is their right, just like any other non-profit organization to back the ideals and morals they uphold.

Doesn't mean I agree with them, I clearly don't; but I do not believe their tax-exempt status should be taken away because they won the vote on a proposition.

[Parkbandit]

All the posts attempting to suggest that the Mormon church played no role in this at all? If you think 30 million dollars is insignificant... please direct it my way.


You should quote all the posts that said that the Mormon Church played no role in this at all.

Otherwise, once again, STFU.

[Parkbandit]

Just religious groups? Or non-profits of all colors?

Personally... what grinds my gears is Indian tribes. If you want to live on your reservation with your casino and be exempt from taxes, you don't get to run ads in elections.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/grindsmygears.jpg

[Parkbandit]

You know there's a reason why Indians get to "live on their reservations and be exempt from taxes" right?

Did you forget to read the rest of the sentence?

[Keller]

Did you forget to read the rest of the sentence?

I doubt it.

[Warriorbird]

You should quote all the posts that said that the Mormon Church played no role in this at all.

Otherwise, once again, STFU.

I wouldn't expect you to understand subxtexts... or people acting just like you do.

http://www.freefoto.com/images/41/07/41_07_54---No-U-Turn-Road-Traffic-Sign_web.jpg

:)

[Daniel]

Did you forget to read the rest of the sentence?

No.