Could the 'He Picked A Terrible Vice President Effect' Hurt McCain? [Archive]

Kefka

10-15-2008, 11:32 AM

PALIN: That Alaska has a very narrow maritime border between a foreign country, Russia, and on our other side, the land-- boundary that we have with-- Canada. It-- it's funny that a comment like that was-- kind of made to-- cari-- I don't know, you know? Reporters--

COURIC: Mock?

PALIN: Yeah, mocked, I guess that's the word, yeah.

Narf indeed!

http://www.war-ofthe-worlds.co.uk/images/pinky_brain_x_11.jpg

It's Palin! It's Palin and McCain Cain Cain Cain Cain Cain Cain Cain Cain!

ElanthianSiren

10-15-2008, 11:38 AM

ROFL. If I hadn't asked my boyfriend to marry me, I think I could love you. That was pure win!

Now I'm going to walk around humming that song all day.

Allereli

10-15-2008, 11:41 AM

Narf indeed!

http://www.war-ofthe-worlds.co.uk/images/pinky_brain_x_11.jpg

It's Palin! It's Palin and McCain Cain Cain Cain Cain Cain Cain Cain Cain!

rofl <3 Pinky and the Brain

edit: and fuck! I'm blocked from giving rep again :(

Trouble

10-15-2008, 11:42 AM

I'm still undecided but she is definitely hurting McCain's chance for my vote. To me the main issue is not whether or not she'd be a decent VP, but how would she deal with the top job itself. I simply can't see her dealing with people like Putin and his new fan boy. Hillary could handle them though (not that I would have necessarily voted for her).

To me the candidate's stances on the issues aren't super-relevant for the President's job, it's always been which person do I like/trust/respect better. I figure congress can overpower a president's stances anyway. Most of my votes have been against someone I didn't want, or for Perot because I think we desperately need a viable third party.

Mabus

10-15-2008, 11:48 AM

It is really great to see all these Obama supporters sticking to the issues, and not taking the low road of personal attacks in politics. This election is all about the issues to them!

Parkbandit

10-15-2008, 11:52 AM

if it weren't for Palin, Obama would be up by 20. The liberals hate her, which makes me love her even more. I love the butt ugly liberal bitches that get on tv and say how bad Palin is though. Democrats seem to attract the ugliest women for some reason.

Allereli

10-15-2008, 11:53 AM

It is really great to see all these Obama supporters sticking to the issues, and not taking the low road of personal attacks in politics. This election is all about the issues to them!

wtf are you talking about? Is the VP candidate wanting to expand her powers into legislation not an issue?

Ignot

10-15-2008, 11:54 AM

She is so Maverick that she doesn't even know it.

Keller

10-15-2008, 11:58 AM

It is really great to see all these Obama supporters sticking to the issues, and not taking the low road of personal attacks in politics. This election is all about the issues to them!

Logical reasoning has never been your fortay.

Don't stop now!

Mabus

10-15-2008, 12:08 PM

wtf are you talking about? Is the VP candidate wanting to expand her powers into legislation not an issue?

Let's look at a couple quotes:

I knew from day 1 she was a crazy bitch. I've got CrazyBitchRadar.

All face, no soul.
Soul and "crazybitchradar", and toss in a Couric interview clip.

Those are certainly some issues there!

Mabus

10-15-2008, 12:09 PM

Logical reasoning has never been your fortay.
It's been my forte more then spelling has been yours!

Tsa`ah

10-15-2008, 12:10 PM

Survey (http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/ec_graph-2008.html) says yes.

DeV

10-15-2008, 12:14 PM

Let's look at a couple quotes:

Soul and "crazybitchradar", and toss in a Couric interview clip.

Those are certainly some issues there!Damn dude, it was A FUCKING JOKE, FFS.

Get a grip on reality.

I think she's a hot piece of ass. That better?

And way to conveniently leave out the revelant part of my response.

Keller

10-15-2008, 12:15 PM

Let's look at a couple quotes:

Soul and "crazybitchradar", and toss in a Couric interview clip.

Those are certainly some issues there!

Day 1 I knew of the investigation, her stance on abortion, and her "faith".

Those are certainly some issues.

Keller

10-15-2008, 12:16 PM

It's been my forte more then spelling has been yours!

I'm tired of this GOTCHA' forum posting.

Kefka

10-15-2008, 12:18 PM

It is really great to see all these Obama supporters sticking to the issues, and not taking the low road of personal attacks in politics. This election is all about the issues to them!

Yeah. We really need to get back to Ayers and ACORN. Them's some real issues!

ElanthianSiren

10-15-2008, 12:22 PM

Day 1 I knew of the investigation, her stance on abortion, and her "faith".

Those are certainly some issues.

It always makes me laugh a little inside when conservative candidates hold up the fact that they won't try to overturn RoeVWade. According to the lawyerly types here, it hasn't been the standard for years. Additionally, even Scalia or Alito (can't recall which) has proposed that the way to lower abortion is to put more state restrictions in place, lower the maximum gestation period, and remove access. Needless to say that when I heard her debate Roe V. Wade as being settled, I thought, "Here we go again."

Allereli

10-15-2008, 12:27 PM

Yeah. We really need to get back to Ayers and ACORN. Them's some real issues!

This election hasn't had enough swiftboat crap

Keller

10-15-2008, 12:28 PM

It always makes me laugh a little inside when conservative candidates hold up the fact that they won't try to overturn RoeVWade. According to the lawyerly types here, it hasn't been the standard for years. Additionally, even Scalia or Alito (can't recall which) has proposed that the way to lower abortion is to put more state restrictions in place, lower the maximum gestation period, and remove access. Needless to say that when I heard her debate Roe V. Wade as being settled, I thought, "Here we go again."

Roe v Wade was the landmark case that proscribed a privacy right in a woman's body.

Planned Parenthood v. Casey reaffirmed that right but allowed states more leeway to restrict abortions.

Ogreslayer

10-15-2008, 01:35 PM

I held out until the debate when she started talking about how her role as VP should include expanded legislative/VP powers.

No thanks.

You might not know it from the media spin, but it was Biden who didn't know what the Constitution says about a Vice President's role. It fits the meme better to portray her as an ignorant powergrabber. The esteemed Senator's protestations notwithstanding, Palin was correctly noting that the Constitution identifies the VP as the President of the Senate, and that she would take a more active role in that arena compared to recent VPs. For the first century of our country's existence our VPs were very active in that regard. By choice, most VPs for the past century have focused primarily on executive tasks, leaving the Senate to the President Pro Tempore (that is, the temporary president of the Senate due to the VP's absence). That a 30+ year member of the Senate doesn't know the history of the Senate, or of the role he is seeking, would have been a more accurate portrayal of that exchange.

If anyone cares to educate themselves on the topic, a discussion of the role of the Vice President, and the degree to which our VPs have performed their legislative duties, can be found at the presumably unbiased US Gov't historical website:

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Vice_President.htm#2

In response to the original question, I agree with Parkbandit. Were it not for Palin, Obama's lead would be even larger. There was virtually no enthusiasm among McCain's base prior to her selection. A large portion of the conservative base sees her as one of them, as someone who represents their ideals, and as smarter than the media and Obama's supporters portray her to be. They love her. Had McCain chosen Romney, Ridge, Lieberman, or Pawlenty, perhaps it would have appealed to more of the conservatives within the beltway, but the conservative enthusiasm outside of Washington would be about as dull as it was before the pick.

If McCain loses, it won't be because he chose Sarah Palin as a running mate.

Tsa`ah

10-15-2008, 01:50 PM

You might not know it from the media spin, but it was Biden who didn't know what the Constitution says about a Vice President's role. It fits the meme better to portray her as an ignorant powergrabber. The esteemed Senator's protestations notwithstanding, Palin was correctly noting that the Constitution identifies the VP as the President of the Senate, and that she would take a more active role in that arena compared to recent VPs.

The Constitution provides that the VP may cast a vote to break a senate deadlock, oversee the procedure of the senate and certify the electoral vote count. That is the capacity of the VP ... expanding that role in the Senate or electoral college would require an amendment to the constitution. Anything else would be an informal role at the behest of the president.

In response to the original question, I agree with Parkbandit. Were it not for Palin, Obama's lead would be even larger. There was virtually no enthusiasm among McCain's base prior to her selection. A large portion of the conservative base sees her as one of them, as someone who represents their ideals, and as smarter than the media and Obama's supporters portray her to be. They love her. Had McCain chosen Romney, Ridge, Lieberman, or Pawlenty, perhaps it would have appealed to more of the conservatives within the beltway, but the conservative enthusiasm outside of Washington would be about as dull as it was before the pick.

The flat line leading up to and after the RNC paints a different picture. Pair that with the down-hill slide and the best argument you have is that Palin has made no difference. You choose the optimistic approach, but it's counter to the polling that has taken place before and after Palin.

If McCain loses, it won't be because he chose Sarah Palin as a running mate.

Palin won't be the sole reason, but to say she doesn't factor into it ... that's a stretch.

Allereli

10-15-2008, 01:52 PM

Palin won't be the sole reason, but to say she doesn't factor into it ... that's a stretch.

I could have been convinced to vote for McCain, but not with her as VP. Just as with Bush, I don't go for the down home, "I'm just like you" politician as a potential world leader.

Ogreslayer

10-15-2008, 02:18 PM

The Constitution provides that the VP may cast a vote to break a senate deadlock, oversee the procedure of the senate and certify the electoral vote count. That is the capacity of the VP ... expanding that role in the Senate or electoral college would require an amendment to the constitution. Anything else would be an informal role at the behest of the president.

Nothing that Palin said is contradictory to the capacity you state; there is no expansion of currently authorized duties, so there would be no need for an amendment. The difference she was noting is the degree to which she would oversee the procedure of the Senate compared to recent VPs, who have largely abdicated that responsibility to the President Pro Tempore and instead focused on the executive. While Biden may wish to also focus on the executive, he is flatly wrong when he states that the only time the Vice President is to preside over the Senate is when performing a tie-breaking vote. Over a hundred years worth of Vice Presidents prove his interpretation wrong.

CrystalTears

10-15-2008, 02:29 PM

Just as with Bush, I don't go for the down home, "I'm just like you" politician as a potential world leader.Isn't that exactly what Obama is tooting?

Ignot

10-15-2008, 02:31 PM

Isn't that exactly what Obama is tooting?

I don't get that feeling with Obama.

Tsa`ah

10-15-2008, 02:32 PM

Nothing that Palin said is contradictory to the capacity you state; there is no expansion of currently authorized duties, so there would be no need for an amendment. The difference she was noting is the degree to which she would oversee the procedure of the Senate compared to recent VPs, who have largely abdicated that responsibility to the President Pro Tempore and instead focused on the executive. While Biden may wish to also focus on the executive, he is flatly wrong when he states that the only time the Vice President is to preside over the Senate is when performing a tie-breaking vote. Over a hundred years worth of Vice Presidents prove his interpretation wrong.

We'll just have to revisit what Palin said in the debates after admitting she had no idea what the constitution provided for the VP.

"Of course we know what a vice president does, and that's not only preside over the Senate, and we'll take that position very seriously, also, I'm thankful that the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president also if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate...."

It doesn't end there ...

"Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president. And we will do what is best for the American people in tapping into that position and ushering in an agenda that is supportive and cooperative with the president's agenda in that position. Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there..."

First she's implying that the VP has some authority over the Senate ... that she could, as VP, influence the Senate.

The second statement, though it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt, suggests that she believes that the Administration, through the VP will be able to control the Senate ... or influence the Senate enough to support administrative agendas.

Biden's gaffe was stopping at "tie breaker" and not going on to "oversee" and "certify".

I'm sorry, but Palin seems to be ignorant of checks and balances and the role of the VP ... outside of what Cheney has told her.

BriarFox

10-15-2008, 02:33 PM

Isn't that exactly what Obama is tooting?

Obama can use a four-syllable word without sounding it out - on occasion, he'll even break out a five-syllable! Oooooo. Aahhhh.

Allereli

10-15-2008, 02:34 PM

Isn't that exactly what Obama is tooting?

You don't hear Obama touting his days as a commercial fisherman as qualifying him to be president.

I don't really like him either, I just can't fucking stand Palin

TheWitch

10-15-2008, 02:34 PM

She is anti-choice.

That's all she had to say to loose me.

The rest of it was just nails in the coffin.

Winking? Please.

And yea, it was a bad choice because ultimately I want to vote not based on reproductive rights, but on economic issues, national security, education, etc. McCain coulda had me, had he picked Rudy. I love Rudy.

ElanthianSiren

10-15-2008, 02:37 PM

Isn't that exactly what Obama is tooting?

Next time Obama breaks out with catch phrases like "Joe six pack," I'll agree. McCain manages not to sound like a three year old victim of lead/mercury toxicity, so why is it so difficult for her? I do find Obama's changetothechangitychange shit annoying but nowhere near as annoying as the down home "folksy" goshdarnits!

Tsa`ah

10-15-2008, 02:38 PM

Isn't that exactly what Obama is tooting?

Not in the same manner, but with much more authenticity. One car, one home, has been on welfare, received a college education on merit and scholarship.

The claims have better reception when they're based in reality ... not "I'm just like you" when you own multiple homes and cars, have access to a private jet and wear pieces of clothing that represent a week's pay to a normal person (or your spouse wears an outfit that represents 10 years worth of a normal person's income) ... or we could go on to the "I'm just like you" even though I never served in combat during a war, was born into wealth, had my "embarrassing" legal run ins expunged from my record, and ran a few corporations into the ground.

One is identifiable, the others are ... well bullshit.

DeV

10-15-2008, 02:41 PM

who have largely abdicated that responsibility to the President Pro Tempore and instead focused on the executive. She has a lot to learn if it's her goal to inject herself into Senate proceedings which has been contrary to practice, save Spiro Agnew, among 20th century Vice Presidents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESkSGMnUihs

Apparently, she's learned a little more since then.

CrystalTears

10-15-2008, 02:42 PM

I'm just saying both sides are doing the "I'm just like you" stuff. Trying to show you how McCain has many houses he can't even count and "I only have one" even though it costs more than most, if not all, the people he's addressing that to.

I think it's funny though how offended people get with Palin's winking or Obama's 'sweetie' commentary. They're personable when they speak and I don't even think they do it purposely. That's just me though. I'm sure they're all tactics, it's just not something that even hits my radar as needing to be addressed or would cause me to rethink my decision on who to vote for (although I still have no idea still).

Warriorbird

10-15-2008, 02:48 PM

See-rah Pay-lin.

TheWitch

10-15-2008, 02:49 PM

I think it's funny though how offended people get with Palin's winking or Obama's 'sweetie' commentary. They're personable when they speak and I don't even think they do it purposely. That's just me though. I'm sure they're all tactics, it's just not something that even hits my radar as needing to be addressed or would cause me to rethink my decision on who to vote for (although I still have no idea still).

The winking bothers me in the same way Hillary's nasal bullhorn of a voice bothers me, yet different.

Hillary's trying too hard to be "manly!!!!" in what is largely a realm still run by men. She's just so... strident.

Palin, on the other hand, is trying to be all coy and girly and I would like to think that we could have left that crap behind a few decades ago.

Pelosi I think does a great job of being a strong, authoritative presence without capitulating to the chest-beating.

And yea, that really has nothing to do with the issues themselves, but as they say in Marketing 101 - packaging is everything.

Did that make any sense?

CrystalTears

10-15-2008, 02:52 PM

Yeah I understand what you're saying. I guess packaging in that sense doesn't phase me.

I never disliked Hillary as a contender because of her "package" (I'm sure she has one), I just didn't want another Clinton in the White House. I think she's politically smarmy.

Keller

10-15-2008, 02:54 PM

Isn't that exactly what Obama is tooting?

I think what you're getting at is that Obama portrays his beginning as not dissimilar from your average individual. He pulled himself up by his own bootstraps.

I don't think anyone would argue at this point that Obama is your everyday average guy. And for that I'm greatful.

ElanthianSiren

10-15-2008, 02:54 PM

It probably offends me more because I come from a very rural area, where my family owned one of the big businesses in town. My grandfather beat into me proper grammar and beat out of me colloquialisms from a very early age. This is a place where aint instead of isn't it, shut the light, dem as in dem girls, aside as in they're aside my house, and is the milk all instead of is the milk gone? is common in conversation.

When I hear someone glorifying that kind of ignorance, it bothers me. I'm offended by it because I know it isn't genetic. It's a choice to sound retarded or at the very least uneducated. When someone who wants a public office can't even speak as eloquently as I do, (which isn't all that eloquently), it really makes me wonder about their qualifications.

Tsa`ah

10-15-2008, 02:55 PM

I'm just saying both sides are doing the "I'm just like you" stuff. Trying to show you how McCain has many houses he can't even count and "I only have one" even though it costs more than most, if not all, the people he's addressing that to.

While it's true that the Obama home costs more than what his average supporter can afford ... it is his first home and it's not like he was a rich prior to becoming a state senator or a senator for Il.

Obama's home represents the bulk of his wealth.

I think it's funny though how offended people get with Palin's winking or Obama's 'sweetie' commentary. They're personable when they speak and I don't even think they do it purposely.

Granted Obama has been on the national stage longer than Palin, the "winking" never seemed genuine ... that's just a personal opinion that waits to see further examples of the wink (and there haven't been that I've seen).

Valthissa

10-15-2008, 03:32 PM

First she's implying that the VP has some authority over the Senate ... that she could, as VP, influence the Senate.

Biden's gaffe was stopping at "tie breaker" and not going on to "oversee" and "certify".

I'm sorry, but Palin seems to be ignorant of checks and balances and the role of the VP ... outside of what Cheney has told her.

I'm willing to bet that if our next VP shows up and presides over the Senate on a routine basis that they will exert influence.

Why does Biden get the benefit of the doubt when his statement was:

"the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought, and as vice president, to preside over the Senate, only in a time when in fact there’s a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit."

It looks like Obama in a landslide and I think that will be fine. I am hoping the Republicans can garner enough seats in the senate to filibuster every now and then.

Easy prediction: If they do, major media and left of center pundits will find a new found distaste for rule XXII, and those on the right will rediscover the virtues of cloture votes.

C/Valth

Tsa`ah

10-15-2008, 03:36 PM

Biden gets the pass because, when asked, he never claimed to not know what the VP's job was ... nor did he accept his spot on the ticket in ignorance.

I think that's the vital argument.

As for the senate race, and the house, it's not looking that good for the GOP. Which I don't like.

waywardgs

10-15-2008, 03:37 PM

the winking reminds me of a stripper trying to woo an extra sawback out of the pocket of a half drunk customer. It's disengenuous and trashy.

Gan

10-15-2008, 03:43 PM

Clove

10-15-2008, 03:58 PM

While it's true that the Obama home costs more than what his average supporter can afford ... it is his first home and it's not like he was a rich prior to becoming a state senator or a senator for Il.

Obama's home represents the bulk of his wealth.What is "rich"? I think Obama has been financially better off than his average supporter for some time; which some may call "rich". Granted, there are many national politicians that are wealthier than Obama and have been for a long time- but that doesn't make Obama middle-class.

Tsa`ah

10-15-2008, 04:05 PM

What is "rich"? I think Obama has been financially better off than his average supporter for some time; which some may call "rich". Granted, there are many national politicians that are wealthier than Obama and have been for a long time- but that doesn't make Obama middle-class.

By Obama's own definition he is rich. That's not the point.

It's a matter of how far removed he, as a person, is from those he has tailored his rhetoric to. Take the newly earned wealth of Obama, who was middle class less than a decade ago, and compare that to the removal of generations via inherited wealth ... or better than "well off" marrying into a fortune.

It boils down to what one can accept as sincere and what one believes to be typical pandering rhetoric.

Danical

10-15-2008, 04:33 PM

She is so Maverick that she doesn't even know it.

Swingers?

TheWitch

10-15-2008, 04:39 PM

Wow another Rudy fan. And here I thought I was the only one on the boards who was a Rudy fan.
:heart:

I moved to NY at the tail end of the Koch administration, and watched the city continue to crumble during the Dinkins Debacle. After Rudy took over, every single day, I saw the good stuff he did to clean up the streets, the subways, the entire city was a better place for having him run it.

He is so unapologetic, even when his opinion isn't popular, which I find so refreshing versus all the suck-ups that just say what they're expected to say, and then do whatever the hell they want anyway. And his handling of 911? Impressive, to say the least. That was a brutal time here, and he just nailed it.

I literally moped for two days when he dropped out of the race.

So, no, Gan, you're not alone in your Rudy love.
:hug2: