Lipstick, or Chauvinist Pig?

[Mabus]

Obama has started his personal, gender-based attacks on Sarah Palin, and it is shameful.

"You can put lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig." -Obama

He is now trying to play it off, as if the reference was not meant to invoke Palin's "What's the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mon? Lipstick." comment at the RNC convention to his audience.

That sexist bastard should apologize to Palin, and women everywhere, for this bullshit.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Who gives a fuck.

If it was Hillary you'd tell her to stop QQing and suck it up.

Thank you, Obama, for saying so succinctly how I feel about Palin BTW. I like.

[Cephalopod]

Definitely a mis-speak from Obama. Using a common Southern saying to describe something is imminently sexist.

We should also keep an eye out for anytime Obama refers to anything 'old', since he's clearly being ageist against McCain.

(Wait? What's that you say? You say you heard McCain use the SAME lipstick / pig analogy back in May?!)

[crb]

the saying is old and not necessarily about Palin.

however, the context in which it was used and the grin on his face etc when using it makes me think he meant it to refer to her.

Not unlike when he flipped hillary off. Remember... he started talking about Hillary, then "scratched his face" with his middle finger, like so many juveniles do. His crowd responded, getting it, and he got a cat-ate-the-bird grin on his face.

[Parkbandit]

I don't think he was actually talking about Palin.. if he was, then he's probably gay because she's far from a pig. McCain knows this and is simply trying to paint poor, poor Sarah as a victim of sexism.. hoping to garner more support.

"Putting lipstick on a pig" is a commonly used expression..

[TheEschaton]

Obama made the remarks at a Virginia campaign stop late Tuesday afternoon. “John McCain says he’s about change too, and so I guess his whole angle is, ‘Watch out George Bush – except for economic policy, health care policy, tax policy, education policy, foreign policy and Karl Rove-style politics – we’re really gonna shake things up in Washington,’” Obama said.

“That’s not change. That’s just calling something the same thing something different. You know you can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig. You know you can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change, it’s still going to stink after eight years. We’ve had enough of the same old thing.”


Funny how context changes your spin rather readily. The best part is that later in the article, McCain's spokesman tries to pass off McCain's use of the phrase as a criticism of Hillary Clinton's policy, not her, but that this is a blatant jab at Sarah Palin, when she wasn't even mentioned in the quote (while McCain is).

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Funny how context changes your spin rather readily. The best part is that later in the article, McCain's spokesman tries to pass off McCain's use of the phrase as a criticism of Hillary Clinton's policy, not her, but that this is a blatant jab at Sarah Palin, when she wasn't even mentioned in the quote (while McCain is).

-TheE-

So Obama is calling McCain a pig? WHY BECAUSE HE IS OLD AND SHOULD BE SENT OUT TO PASTURE!?

Fucking ageism at it's 'finest'...

[crb]

I seem to recall there being discussion of Palin either in a further before paragraph or the one right after. But I can admit I may be misremembering.

[CrystalTears]

Definitely a mis-speak from Obama.
It's becoming quite a habit of his, isn't it?

[TheEschaton]

Yeah, he went on to praise McCain and Palin's personal stories as ones of personal strength.

[Tea & Strumpets]

You know you can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called change, it’s still going to stink after eight years.

Is this some kind of attack on Palin's vagina?

[AnticorRifling]

"Putting lipstick on a pig" is a commonly used expression..

Maybe down in Dixie where you still think you won the war but I sure as shit hadn't heard that expression before.

[TheEschaton]

In related news, this is another McCain campaign push to categorize an Obama-Biden campaign statement as a personal attack, as opposed to a policy attack. I think it's a lot closer than Obama supposedly calling Palin a pig, but still a valid policy criticism:


During a campaign event in Columbia, Missouri, Biden did not mention his Republican counterpart by name but said, "I hear all this talk about how the Republicans are going to work in dealing with parents who have both the joy ... and the difficulty of raising a child who has a developmental disability, who were born with a birth defect."

Biden's support of stem cell research is at odds with the position taken by the Republicans' vice presidential nominee, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, whose 5-month-old son, Trig, has Down syndrome.

Palin, an evangelical Christian, opposes stem cell research because it involves the use of human embryos, but her running mate, GOP presidential nominee McCain, does support stem cell research.

"Well, guess what, folks? If you care about it, why don't you support stem cell research?" asked Biden, the running mate of Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama.

Those comments brought a sharp response.

"Barack Obama's running mate sunk to a new low today, launching an offensive debate over who cares more about special needs children," McCain-Palin spokesman Ben Porritt said. "Playing politics with this issue is disturbing and indicative of a desperate campaign."

Biden spokesman David Wade insisted that the Delaware senator's comments were not directed at Palin.

"This is a clash of policies, not a clash of personalities," Wade said. "We've heard not a dime's worth of difference between the McCain-Palin ticket and the Bush administration on medical breakthroughs that millions of parents and doctors believe could save lives and transform the quality of life for countless Americans."

During her acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention last week, Palin told parents of children with disabilities that she would be "a friend and advocate in the White House."

[Parkbandit]

Maybe down in Dixie where you still think you won the war but I sure as shit hadn't heard that expression before.

You live in America's belly button... of course you haven't. It won't get to you for another 20 years or so.

PS - I actually heard the expression growing up in upstate NY, thank you very much.

[Warriorbird]

...in the 1920's.

McCain accepted an ad that said Obama was going to teach sex ed to children before they knew how to read. Both sides will go lower still.

[Keller]

however, the context in which it was used and the grin on his face etc when using it makes me think he meant it to refer to her.

Why would talking about John McCain make you think he was refering to her?

[Jorddyn]

"You can put lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig." -Obama

My grandma says that all the time. It's got nothing to do with gender.

I think everyone needs to spend less time getting indignant over stupid stuff and spend more time talking about things that really matter.

[Parkbandit]

...in the 1920's.

McCain accepted an ad that said Obama was going to teach sex ed to children before they knew how to read. Both sides will go lower still.

I think this might be a breakthrough moment for you.. You actually acknowledged that Obama goes negative and not just McCain.

True Story: I can't remember what channel, but I'm pretty sure it was the National Barack Channel (NBC) the anchor was talking about how negative McCain is in his ads.. and how Obama was 'forced' to add more 'grit' to his ads in response.

[Keller]

Jon Stewart addressed this point last week: http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086

[Khariz]

Highly applicable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZd_Y_D-RaA

[CrystalTears]

I've never heard the saying, but I honestly don't care if it was about Palin or not. Obama's lipstick comment was stated a bit too soon after Palin's own lipstick comment during her convention speech, so I feel that's why people are linking the two together.

[Khariz]

I've never heard the saying, but I honestly don't care if it was about Palin or not. Obama's lipstick comment was stated a bit too soon after Palin's own lipstick comment during her convention speech, so I feel that's why people are linking the two together.

Exactly, it was probably an Obama speech writer trying to be witty or punny. Bad call, though. I don't blame Obama. It was stupid, but I don't think he was intentionally meaning it to be explicitly about her.

[Jorddyn]

I've never heard the saying, but I honestly don't care if it was about Palin or not. Obama's lipstick comment was stated a bit too soon after Palin's own lipstick comment during her convention speech, so I feel that's why people are linking the two together.

I wonder what the general populace feels is an appropriate time between lipstick comments.

I also wonder if this is a sad comment on how we as a nation pick up on the sound bites rather than the meaning behind a speech.

[Keller]

I wonder what the general populace feels is an appropriate time between lipstick comments.

I also wonder if this is a sad comment on how we as a nation pick up on the sound bites rather than the meaning behind a speech.

Didn't you get the memo? This campaign is about image, not issues.

[crb]

Exactly, it was probably an Obama speech writer trying to be witty or punny. Bad call, though. I don't blame Obama. It was stupid, but I don't think he was intentionally meaning it to be explicitly about her.
WHAT! OBAMA doesn't write his own speeches? You break my heart!

[CrystalTears]

If there wasn't a woman involved in this election, any lipstick comment wouldn't trigger anyone's radar. But seeing as how there is, people will assume a lipstick comment, no matter how common the phrase may be, is going to be stated against the woman.

It's unfortunate that people aren't listening to the speech in its entirety and picking/choosing what to hear, pulling it out of context, and making a big deal about it.

[Khariz]

I wonder what the general populace feels is an appropriate time between lipstick comments.

I also wonder if this is a sad comment on how we as a nation pick up on the sound bites rather than the meaning behind a speech.

I think you WOULD have a good point, if there weren't people who get paid to write speeches for Obama and should think of shit like this when they are writing. I have a really hard time believing that the person who wrote that line wasn't politically savvy enough to have thought of the fact that Palin just said something about lipstick the week before.

Again, I refuse to blame Obama directly, but he still said the line. Either he thought it was funny too, or it came out before he thought of the potential ramifications.

[TheEschaton]

So, exactly like the media was outraged over McCain's lipstick comment in reference to Hillary?

Whooooooooooooooooooops. They weren't.

-TheE-

[Keller]

I'll repeat: Jon Stewart addressed this issue last week at http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086

[Khariz]

If there wasn't a woman involved in this election, any lipstick comment wouldn't trigger anyone's radar. But seeing as how there is, people will assume a lipstick comment, no matter how common the phrase may be, is going to be stated against the woman.

It's unfortunate that people aren't listening to the speech in its entirety and picking/choosing what to hear, pulling it out of context, and making a big deal about it.

Erm...it's not JUST about the fact that she's a woman. It's about the fact that she referred to herself as a pitbull with lipstick last week. That's the context, hehe.

[Khariz]

I'll repeat: Jon Stewart addressed this issue last week at http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086

Jon Stewart is a joke. Intentionally. I'll continue to ignore his jackassery as being applicable to...just about anything!

[Keller]

Jon Stewart is a joke. Intentionally. I'll continue to ignore his jackassery as being applicable to...just about anything!

That's convenient.

[Khariz]

That's convenient.

Right...I suppose I should give a shit about what Frank Caliendo thinks about politics too. It's just as applicable. Stewart exists to give witty laughs. That's about all he's good for.

[Keller]

That's convenient.

[Khariz]

That's convenient.

I see you are even less witty than Stewart.

Your new ploy of posting "You are a Republican, I wouldn't expect you to understand" in every thread whenever anyone disagrees with you is lame. Especially because 75% of the people you post it to (including myself) aren't republicans.

[Mabus]

Erm...it's not JUST about the fact that she's a woman. It's about the fact that she referred to herself as a pitbull with lipstick last week. That's the context, hehe.
Exactly, and the look on his face, and the crowd's response, tells you that they know what he just did.

So McCain could say something like "All Obama seems to do is shuck and jive, then dance around the issues." and no one would have a problem with it?

I would.

Every one of you that states they do not believe this was in direct reference to the "lipstick" joke that Palin made at the convention either know you are bullshitting, or are so far up Obama's ass that he can do no wrong in your eyes.

Disgusting.

I hope McCain personally defends her while she is back in Alaska. I hope he demands an apology at the first debate.

This is beyond the "clinging" comments. It reminds me of his comment:

"I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal." -Obama
(italics my own)

His sexist, gender-based comments are known to people that watched him during the primaries, and that have an open mind.

[Keller]

I see you are even less witty than Stewart.

Your new ploy of posting "You are a Republican, I wouldn't expect you to understand" in every thread whenever anyone disagrees with you is lame. Especially because 75% of the people you post it to (including myself) aren't republicans.

First: you avoided even commenting on the contents of the video by dismissing Stewart out of hand. That's convenient.

Second: I post that in response to crb because that is how crb posts.

Third: You're about as libertarian as Obama is socialist.

[CrystalTears]

Erm...it's not JUST about the fact that she's a woman. It's about the fact that she referred to herself as a pitbull with lipstick last week. That's the context, hehe.
I didn't say JUST, since I'm the one who said it was because she made a similar lipstick statement.

I'm just saying, don't underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups. Lipstick must equal reference to a woman, so he must clearly be trying to insult Palin, instead of them reading into the rest of what he was saying first before making that assumption.

It was bad timing for him to say it.

[Khariz]

First: you avoided even commenting on the contents of the video by dismissing Stewart out of hand. That's convenient.

Second: I post that in response to crb because that is how crb posts.

Third: You're about as libertarian as Obama is socialist.

That would make me as libertarian as it gets, so thanks for the compliment.

[crb]

First: you avoided even commenting on the contents of the video by dismissing Stewart out of hand. That's convenient.

Second: I post that in response to crb because that is how crb posts.

Third: You're about as libertarian as Obama is socialist.
That is how people post to me.

I, post sources and walls of text with details.

[Clove]

Didn't you get the memo? This campaign is about image, not issues.Campaigns have been about image and not issues since the invention of television.

[Khariz]

Campaigns have been about image and not issues since the invention of television.

Yup...I mean JTFC, the American people didn't even know that Roosevelt was handicapped.

[TheEschaton]

"I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal." -Obama
(italics my own)

I'm sorry, I was and am a Hillary Clinton supporter, and that statement in no way offends me, or, I believe, the feminist movement. It is insulting to Hillary inasmuch as it says she's a mudslinger and goes negative, but that's it. Most rational people would see Obama's use of the word "down" as a reference to its most common usage in politics - down politically, down in the polls, down in the corner, etc.

In fact, most of the outrage over the sexism towards Hillary comes from Republicans who are now fabricating said outrage to defend Palin, besides the few whacko PUMAs who only voted for Hillary because she has a vagina in the first place.

I find it extremely disingenuous that people like Karl Rove and Dick Morris and Nancy Pfotenhauper (a McCain spokewoman) were consistently disparaging about HIllary in implying she can't be moody and PMSing when dealing with world leaders, and are now rallying around Palin to say policy attacks which AREN'T SEXIST are somehow demeaning to their "historic female pick" for VP, Sarah Palin.

Edit for clarification: There is one sexist criticism of Palin out there right now, and that's the "Can she be a good mom to her DS kid and be VP?" criticism. That is a question which is patently ridiculous on its face. This post refers to the lipstick comment specifically, and about criticism of Palin generally.

-TheE-
P.S. Khariz, you would know this last argument if you watched Jon Stewart. ;)

[Keller]

That is how people post to me.

I, post sources and walls of text with details.

Three different occassions you've said that to me. You've called me a liberal/Keynesian and dismissed my points out of hand as blindly ignorant.

You're kidding yourself if you don't see it.

[Keller]

That would make me as libertarian as it gets, so thanks for the compliment.

You made my point for me. Thanks!

[Khariz]

P.S. Khariz, you would know this last argument if you watched Jon Stewart. ;)

Hehehe, guilty!

I watched this clip too. And both clips were funny. I still don't really find Stewart politically relevant though. He makes amusing points, some of which are thought provoking. I'll give him and his staff that much credit.

I guess I see Stewart's talent as being to show people the irony of one-sided thinking. I suppose that's respectable enough for me.

[TheEschaton]

Comedy has long been the place where you can tell both sides of a story - the irony is that JS doesn't even have to try that hard, he just edits together clips of politicians completely changing their views based on whether it is politically beneficial to them.

[Khariz]

Comedy has long been the place where you can tell both sides of a story - the irony is that JS doesn't even have to try that hard, he just edits together clips of politicians completely changing their views based on whether it is politically beneficial to them.

That's true. Politicians are definitely a source of never ending jokes.

[Parkbandit]

Jon Stewart is a joke. Intentionally. I'll continue to ignore his jackassery as being applicable to...just about anything!

Some people get all of their political 'news' from Comedy Central.

[Parkbandit]

I'm sorry, I was and am a Hillary Clinton supporter, and that statement in no way offends me, or, I believe, the feminist movement. It is insulting to Hillary inasmuch as it says she's a mudslinger and goes negative, but that's it. Most rational people would see Obama's use of the word "down" as a reference to its most common usage in politics - down politically, down in the polls, down in the corner, etc.

I'll call bullshit on this. Most rational people aren't consumed with politics like we tend to be here. When someone says someone is down, it's a reference to emotions and not a reference to polling data.



In fact, most of the outrage over the sexism towards Hillary comes from Republicans who are now fabricating said outrage to defend Palin, besides the few whacko PUMAs who only voted for Hillary because she has a vagina in the first place.

I love the use of the term "fact" here, when it's simply unfounded... especially when you look at the DEMOCRATIC polling data from the primary. Are you somehow suggesting that the evil Karl Rove planted this outrage in Hillary supporters? Man, he IS A GENIUS!



I find it extremely disingenuous that people like Karl Rove and Dick Morris and Nancy Pfotenhauper (a McCain spokewoman) were consistently disparaging about HIllary in implying she can't be moody and PMSing when dealing with world leaders, and are now rallying around Palin to say policy attacks which AREN'T SEXIST are somehow demeaning to their "historic female pick" for VP, Sarah Palin.

Have a source of where these people said this.. or is this implying your interpretation of it? I'm not saying they didn't say it... just don't remember PMS being used as a reason not to vote for Clinton (besides, she's probably menopausal by now.. )

[TheEschaton]

Have a source of where these people said this.. or is this implying your interpretation of it? I'm not saying they didn't say it... just don't remember PMS being used as a reason not to vote for Clinton (besides, she's probably menopausal by now.. )

;)

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

[Parkbandit]

Jesus... is that the only source of your political information??

[TheEschaton]

Nope, but it is a conveniently bite-sized summation.

[Keller]

Nope, but it is a conveniently bite-sized summation.

I presume you mean it is a bite-sized summation of the point you were making and not of the news itself?

[ClydeR]

Big phony McCain would never make such a sexist remark.


:pig:

But when asked about Mrs. Clinton his speech, he said her proposal was “eerily” similar to the plan she came up with in 1993, when she headed a health care reorganization effort during her husband’s administration. “I think they put some lipstick on a pig,” he said, “but it’s still a pig.”

More... (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/us/politics/12health.html)

:pig:

[Audriana]

Jon Stuart is funny. No doubt about it. But he isn't a source of news. He's said many many times that he's 'fake news'. He likes to poke fun at the 24 hour news channels because they have to fill the gaps in what would take maybe 2 hours a day to cover so they just spout off bullshit all day.


This debate centers around a phrase. I've heard the phrase, may not have used it often, but I've heard it in general every-day speaking. In context I don't see it refering to anybody. It may have been put in the speech in bad taste, but we can't know that.

He's actually saying that McCain is the pig in lipstick, he's trying to dress up the Bush (pig) policies so we vote for them again. That may or may not be true, but it doesn't refer Palin and that's that.

[Keller]

We already knew McCain will abuse gender to gain an advantage. That's not news, ClydeR.

[DeV]

Who gives a fuck.

If it was Hillary you'd tell her to stop QQing and suck it up.

My sentiments exactly.

I find the hoopla surrounding the comment hilarious whether it's in reference to Palin or not, although I'm leaning towards the latter.

[Keller]

The McCain campaign needs to make the story about this and not about the meat of Obama's point -- that McCain doesn't have many significant differences from the Bush administration.

It's just more Rove tactics. Keep Obama on the defensive by producing pseudo-issues each day so he has to respond to them instead of attacking McCain on the issues.

[Khariz]

Obama just got on the mic in Virginia and said that he was clearly referring to McCain's economic policy and not Palin.

Again, I'm sure that's correct, especially from his perspective, but the person who wrote that line in his speech should be fired, hehe.

[Audriana]

It shouldn't have even been brought up, it's so ridiculous.

[RichardCranium]

Does anyone remember Jon Stewart on Crossfire?

[Jorddyn]

Does anyone remember Jon Stewart on Crossfire?

I am not your monkey? (Or something similar)

[RichardCranium]

Here's the transcript. (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/bljonstewartcrossfire.htm)

You can also find the clip on Youtube.

[Khariz]

Here's the transcript. (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/bljonstewartcrossfire.htm)

You can also find the clip on Youtube.

Okay...just watched the clip...and it's funny as hell.

Edit: holy shit, he seriously did eat those dudes up.

Edit2: He did a great job explaining to them their responsibility to do the news, his lack of responsibility to do that, and how he does it better than them, even though he's not supposed to. He's right that Crossfire is theater, not genuine debate.

[Keller]

Could this be any more of a manufactured controversy?

Yes. They could have made something up about McCain having an illegitimate black love-child, but I think they are working for McCain this time around.

[Khariz]

ROFL at this too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPfZBtxrT5s

[Back]

Obama response this morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zAbeu3v3Wc

[Gan]

Some people get all of their political 'news' from Comedy Central.

Or from Oprah.

(not included in that blanket statement)

[crazymage]

http://www.mondaymorningmemo.com/mmm_images/June6_2005MMM.jpg

[Jorddyn]

Yep, that's still a pig.

For some reason, it reminds me of Betty White, but it is still a pig.

[Mabus]

the person who wrote that line in his speech should be fired, hehe.

I have posted that Obama is intelligent. I am sure Obama supporters would agree with that.

Unless Obama, unlike the rest of the people even somewhat interested in this election, somehow missed the pitbull/soccer-mom/lipstick reference in the speech, he knew the line was inappropriate.

The well-worded speech today to "address" the issue makes me believe that this is a manufactured issue, one difference between those that have posted this (and the media covering it):

I believe this issue was manufactured by Obama's campaign.

As they watched their numbers go down they had to come up with a strategy to neuter the "Palin Factor". They worried about Biden saying something off the cuff, and about the Hillary voters taking offense, so they purposefully put the phrase in the speech to draw outrage from McCain.

Then they use the speech, pre-written and waiting, the next day to "address" the issue, and hope that they take away the gender issue. They have all the McCain quotes saying "lipstick on a pig" (including video footage) waiting to roll to the news media, and surrogates ready to defend him.

Just a theory.

If this was on purpose it is at the level of Rove political genius. I have to think that either Obama did this on purpose, or he is not nearly as intelligent as I have given him credit for in the past.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'd go cougar on Palin. Lipstick would be involved as well.

[Khariz]

I have posted that Obama is intelligent. I am sure Obama supporters would agree with that.

Unless Obama, unlike the rest of the people even somewhat interested in this election, somehow missed the pitbull/soccer-mom/lipstick reference in the speech, he knew the line was inappropriate.

The well-worded speech today to "address" the issue makes me believe that this is a manufactured issue, one difference between those that have posted this (and the media covering it):

I believe this issue was manufactured by Obama's campaign.

As they watched their numbers go down they had to come up with a strategy to neuter the "Palin Factor". They worried about Biden saying something off the cuff, and about the Hillary voters taking offense, so they purposefully put the phrase in the speech to draw outrage from McCain.

Then they use the speech, pre-written and waiting, the next day to "address" the issue, and hope that they take away the gender issue. They have all the McCain quotes saying "lipstick on a pig" (including video footage) waiting to roll to the news media, and surrogates ready to defend him.

Just a theory.

If this was on purpose it is at the level of Rove political genius. I have to think that either Obama did this on purpose, or he is not nearly as intelligent as I have given him credit for in the past.


I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I have to agree that this is plausible.

[Jorddyn]

Just a theory.

Wait, let me go get my tin foil...

Seriously, I'm beyond sick of Palin being "attacked". Nothing can be said that remotely mentions her gender, position on stem cell research, position on sex ed, or apparently lipstick without it being considered an attack.

Everyone - Palin, McCain, Obama, Biden - needs to put on their big kid pants and stop claiming indignation at every comment and question that is placed in front of them. They're trying to win two of the most powerful leadership positions in the world, and they're seriously getting upset over lipstick?

[Mabus]

Wait, let me go get my tin foil...

If you firmly believe Obama, and his speech writers, did not know that the lipstick comment would evoke a sense of outrage then you already are wearing a tin-foil hat.

[BriarFox]

I don't care enough to read the rest of this thread, but if you believe that nonsense about Obama smearing Palin, you need to stop believing McCain's truth-twisting ads. Obama wasn't talking about Palin at all when he made that remark, and it's a metaphor used fairly often in politics - McCain himself has used it in the past.

Here's an LA Times story that debunks this idiocy: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedishrag/2008/09/barack-obama-sa.html

Also, if you want some honest answers on whose smearing whom, then go here: http://www.factcheck.org/ - It's an unpartisan analytical group. You'll notice that the last ten headlines are all about how McCain's done this or that dishonestly.

[Daniel]

I have posted that Obama is intelligent. I am sure Obama supporters would agree with that.

Unless Obama, unlike the rest of the people even somewhat interested in this election, somehow missed the pitbull/soccer-mom/lipstick reference in the speech, he knew the line was inappropriate.

The well-worded speech today to "address" the issue makes me believe that this is a manufactured issue, one difference between those that have posted this (and the media covering it):

I believe this issue was manufactured by Obama's campaign.

As they watched their numbers go down they had to come up with a strategy to neuter the "Palin Factor". They worried about Biden saying something off the cuff, and about the Hillary voters taking offense, so they purposefully put the phrase in the speech to draw outrage from McCain.

Then they use the speech, pre-written and waiting, the next day to "address" the issue, and hope that they take away the gender issue. They have all the McCain quotes saying "lipstick on a pig" (including video footage) waiting to roll to the news media, and surrogates ready to defend him.

Just a theory.

If this was on purpose it is at the level of Rove political genius. I have to think that either Obama did this on purpose, or he is not nearly as intelligent as I have given him credit for in the past.

The liberal conspiracy team strikes again!

[Mabus]

The liberal conspiracy team strikes again!
So you believe Obama, and his speech writers, are stupid or just insensitive?

Think. Try it.

[Parkbandit]

I think it's amusing that McCain claims that Obama is referring to Palin (which is fucking not true.. since she's fucking hot).. yet used the same exact term when describing HillaryCare.

McCain is looking like a chump for bringing it up imo.

[Kefka]

http://www.sebodomessias.com.br/loja/imagens/produtos/produtos/16000_22.jpg

Oh snap! She looks like McCain's former spokesperson!

[Tsa`ah]

I think it's amusing that McCain claims that Obama is referring to Palin (which is fucking not true.. since she's fucking hot).. yet used the same exact term when describing HillaryCare.

McCain is looking like a chump for bringing it up imo.

Probably never happen again but ...

QFT

I'll go one more and suggest that anyone who is running with this looks more of the chump.

[TheRoseLady]

Does anyone remember Jon Stewart on Crossfire?

Yes, Tucker Carlson was dumbstruck that they weren't going to have fun and laugh - instead he and Begala got their asses handed to them.

[TheRoseLady]

If you firmly believe Obama, and his speech writers, did not know that the lipstick comment would evoke a sense of outrage then you already are wearing a tin-foil hat.

The lad doth protest too much.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

"You can put lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig." -Obama

It's no big deal, it's a common saying. Get over it.

[Mabus]

It's no big deal, it's a common saying. Get over it.
And if McCain said, "This Obama plan will not work. Let's call a spade a spade." do you think the "common saying" would be gotten over, or do you think it likely that charges of racism would flow?

Hell, Bill Clinton was called a racist by the Obama campaign (and the media) for saying Jesse Jackson and Obama ran great campaigns in South Carolina.

How many ads by McCain have already been called "racist" by the media and Obama supporters?

The celebrity ad was insinuated to bring race into the debate, by the NY Times:
"In the 2006 Senate race in Tennessee, Republicans ran an advertisement against a black candidate, the Democrat Harold E. Ford Jr., that featured a white woman saying, with a wink, "Harold, call me." Some have drawn parallels between that commercial and the McCain campaign's advertisement juxtaposing Ms. Spears and Ms. Hilton with Mr. Obama."

The new sex ed ad is already being called "racist" by several Obama supporters, include Hope Reborn at Daily Kos:
"Worse, the repeated use of Obama's face throughout the ad has an almost subconcious registry in my mind where by the end, you're thinking of a black face and children and sex... to call is racist is light. I'd put this up on par with Willie Horton as an all time low."

So Obama using implied sexism as a political tactic is fine to many of you, because it is a "common saying", but McCain showing Obama's face in commercials is seen as "racist" by some in the liberal media that find the sexist tactic acceptable...

It takes a bit to wrap one's head around this "New kind of politics".

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

And if McCain said, "This Obama plan will not work. Let's call a spade a spade." do you think the "common saying" would be gotten over, or do you think it likely that charges of racism would flow?


Well first, calling a spade a spade definitely has racist connotations, look it up. Second, the pig with lipstick saying IS a common saying, I've used it for at least 10 years to describe shitty applications we have at work. Putting a new GUI on them doesn't change the fact they are shitty.

It's a common saying, not having origins in racism. Apples, Oranges.

[Mabus]

Well first, calling a spade a spade definitely has racist connotations, look it up. Second, the pig with lipstick saying IS a common saying, I've used it for at least 10 years to describe shitty applications we have at work. Putting a new GUI on them doesn't change the fact they are shitty.

It's a common saying, not having origins in racism. Apples, Oranges.

Call a spade a spade, origin of the phrase. (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/call-a-spade-a-spade.html)

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Yeah, first link in google. Did you read beyond the first sentence, or are you just that biased?

[Mabus]

Yeah, first link in google. Did you read beyond the first sentence, or are you just that biased?
As that link shows:
"Philippus aunswered, that the Macedonians wer feloes of no fyne witte in their termes but altogether grosse, clubbyshe, and rusticall, as they whiche had not the witte to calle a spade by any other name then a spade." -Plutarch's Apophthegmata

Or did you not read down that far?

The usage of the common phrase in my example was just that, an example that could be found unacceptable (even by me) if McCain were to use it. In the example it would not even need a previous reference from Obama to be found offensive by someone hearing the statement.

In Obama's case there was a recent reference to "lipstick" by the GOP VP candidate. This was a well known statement from the convention acceptance speech. It would be highly improbable that Obama, and his speech writers and strategists, had not heard the "lipstick" quote. They had a reference to it, and knew the reaction it would evoke. The audience responded to the quote in more then just a "he used a common phrase" manner. They knew what was being insinuated.

It seems accepting bias from Obama, while looking for it to denounce from others, knows no bounds for people defending Obama.

[Shari]

I don't think he was actually talking about Palin.. if he was, then he's probably gay because she's far from a pig. McCain knows this and is simply trying to paint poor, poor Sarah as a victim of sexism.. hoping to garner more support.

"Putting lipstick on a pig" is a commonly used expression..

So common, in fact, that both McCain, and Cheny have used the term in their speeches.


Really, can they find NOTHING better to get their panties in a wad about?

For fuck's sake.

[Back]

I have to agree with PB and Shari and most people here.

So because Palin used the word “lipstick” in an RNC convention speech using that word in any context is an attack on her? Get real.

Who used the words “and”, “but” and “or” first?

[Mabus]

I have to agree with PB and Shari and most people here.

So because Palin used the word “lipstick” in an RNC convention speech using that word in any context is an attack on her? Get real.

Who used the words “and”, “but” and “or” first?

This would not be the first time that several posters here "agreed" that an Obama comment wasn't that horrendous.

Let's see...
...I remember this quote in a post I made:

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." -Obama

This was dismissed as "not important", and that it would not have an affect on voters. Those that stated this were wrong then, just as they are wrong about the current comments now.

This will affect voters.

Not the Obama supporters, no. Obama likely could sacrifice babies on a stage and they would swear it was to save the children from McCain, and that McCain would have done it if GW had done it before him. There is nothing he could do wrong in their eyes.

The people this may affect are the independents that are not that politically active. The voters that "liked" Palin's speech (which they may have caught only parts of), and identify with her having children, being a woman, being a hunter or else wise.

So whether people that strongly support one candidate over another find the comments objectionable or not, it is not these voters that may be affected by the comments that I have pointed out as being objectionable. It is the people that have not decided which candidate to vote for as yet.

These are the people that will be deciding the election.

[Back]

Obama likely could sacrifice babies on a stage and they would swear it was to save the children from McCain, and that McCain would have done it if GW had done it before him. There is nothing he could do wrong in their eyes.

This does not help your argument. In fact, it hurts your argument.

You weave a tightly wound spin and you are good at that. But you’re trying too hard and I see exactly what you are trying to do.

Obama, patron of death of the innocent babies.

Really?

If you were really such a staunch supporter of “life” you would never agree with war as an answer let alone a casual decision.

You are an oxymoron.

[Mabus]

You are an oxymoron.
And you just skip the "oxy".

[Back]

And you just skip the "oxy".

When your argument is reduced to dust call the other party a nasty name.

Fucking intellectual brilliance. :clap:

[ElanthianSiren]

This election is so full of win.

It actually reminds me of a PC political "debate."

:lol:

[Parkbandit]

When your argument is reduced to dust call the other party a nasty name.

Fucking intellectual brilliance. :clap:

:rofl:

Where did you reduce his argument to dust? I really didn't read that part.

Once again, you confuse someone who believes that you offer something, hell ANYTHING, to the debate... and someone who considers you a political joke and doesn't bother reading most of your post.

Seriously.. you should stick to stalking chicks.. at least you are good at that in a creepy sort of way.

[Daniel]

This would not be the first time that several posters here "agreed" that an Obama comment wasn't that horrendous.

Let's see...
...I remember this quote in a post I made:

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." -Obama

This was dismissed as "not important", and that it would not have an affect on voters. Those that stated this were wrong then, just as they are wrong about the current comments now.

This will affect voters.

Not the Obama supporters, no. Obama likely could sacrifice babies on a stage and they would swear it was to save the children from McCain, and that McCain would have done it if GW had done it before him. There is nothing he could do wrong in their eyes.

The people this may affect are the independents that are not that politically active. The voters that "liked" Palin's speech (which they may have caught only parts of), and identify with her having children, being a woman, being a hunter or else wise.

So whether people that strongly support one candidate over another find the comments objectionable or not, it is not these voters that may be affected by the comments that I have pointed out as being objectionable. It is the people that have not decided which candidate to vote for as yet.

These are the people that will be deciding the election.

That's funny. I don't remember that comment derailing the Obama primary campaign like you predicted. In fact, I don't remember any of the bullshit you claimed would be the downfall of Obama has come to light yet.

Calm down and don't get too excited yet.

[Parkbandit]

That's funny. I don't remember that comment derailing the Obama primary campaign like you predicted. In fact, I don't remember any of the bullshit you claimed would be the downfall of Obama has come to light yet.

Calm down and don't get too excited yet.


Eh.. I was one of the first to say that it was nothing.. but clearly the Republicans have turned it into something that still has legs.

:shrug:

I still think it's true though :)

[Daniel]

Eh.. I was one of the first to say that it was nothing.. but clearly the Republicans have turned it into something that still has legs.

:shrug:

I still think it's true though :)

You did. I acknowledge that.

[Mabus]

That's funny. I don't remember that comment derailing the Obama primary campaign like you predicted. In fact, I don't remember any of the bullshit you claimed would be the downfall of Obama has come to light yet.
It did hurt Obama in the polls. Look at the votes in the states following the quote, and the polls before.

Of course it did not "derail" his backroom deals at the DNC, his buying of super-delegates, his being against 100% FLA and MI delegates before being for them, or any of the other Chicago-style politics he used.

To state that his "bitter" comments did not hurt his overall vote count is to discount reality.