Sarah Palin's Daughter's Pregnancy

[crb]

Pregant at 17, classless liberals try to make it a campaign issue, claim it proves Palin is a bad mother and shouldn't spend so much time away from the home, claim Palin is just pandering for the "Juno" vote.

In other news, Obama says making it a campaign issue is off limits. Kudos to Obama, now we just gotta see if he has the balls to denounce his surrogates that have started to make it an issue.

[Stretch]

Every VP is allowed one daughter-related issue.

[TheRoseLady]

Pregant at 17, classless liberals try to make it a campaign issue, claim it proves Palin is a bad mother and shouldn't spend so much time away from the home, claim Palin is just pandering for the "Juno" vote.

In other news, Obama says making it a campaign issue is off limits. Kudos to Obama, now we just gotta see if he has the balls to denounce his surrogates that have started to make it an issue.

Do you actually read the news before you post these sorts of things? I haven't read anything about Palin being a bad mother, that she spends too much time from home or that they are after the "Juno" vote.

Obama nor McCain can control what bloggers write.

Which Obama surrogates have made it an issue?

Obama as you noted says that kids are off limits, which I completely agree with this sentiment. It doesn't behoove anyone to point at this young girl and decry that her mother must be a failure since the validity of her ideology has been put to test, rather personally.

This should be a family issue, handled by the Palins.

[Kembal]

Pregant at 17, classless liberals try to make it a campaign issue, claim it proves Palin is a bad mother and shouldn't spend so much time away from the home, claim Palin is just pandering for the "Juno" vote.

In other news, Obama says making it a campaign issue is off limits. Kudos to Obama, now we just gotta see if he has the balls to denounce his surrogates that have started to make it an issue.

Pandering for the "Juno" vote? WTF is that? The underage teeange daughter vote? (the fact that they're not 18 seems to have escaped you.) Or is it the movie fan vote? (yes, because a substantial amount of Americans are obviously stupid enough to change their vote on the basis of a fictional movie /sarcasm)

And more to the point, let's get the term surrogate properly defined here: A surrogate is someone who is on a official campaign roster as an adviser or spokesperson. It's not someone with a blog or who posts on a message board. Or do you fancy yourself as a surrogate for the McCain campaign?

The amount of stupidity expressed in your post is amazing.

[The Ponzzz]

Girls like to have sex. The End.

[thefarmer]

Had this been Obama's daughter who was knocked up at 17, people like Crb would be pointing out the flaws in Obama's family values, etc.

Instead, since it's the daughter of the nominee of the party he endorses, he chooses to throw phrases like 'classless liberals" and question Obama's "balls" about reining in people he has no control over.

EDIT: The tactics the other side decries, is exactly what they'd do had the situation been reversed (Obama's kid knocked up).

[Parkbandit]

Pregant at 17, classless liberals try to make it a campaign issue, claim it proves Palin is a bad mother and shouldn't spend so much time away from the home, claim Palin is just pandering for the "Juno" vote.

In other news, Obama says making it a campaign issue is off limits. Kudos to Obama, now we just gotta see if he has the balls to denounce his surrogates that have started to make it an issue.

I can't believe that Palin would punish her kid with a child..

[Parkbandit]

Had this been Obama's daughter who was knocked up at 17, people like Crb would be pointing out the flaws in Obama's family values, etc.

Instead, since it's the daughter of the nominee of the party he endorses, he chooses to throw phrases like 'classless liberals" and question Obama's "balls" about reining in people he has no control over.

And the liberals here would be saying it's no big deal.

You are all a bunch of hypocrites.

[Methais]

Everybody should stfu about politics for 24 hours, just to see if it can be done.

[Audriana]

thefarmer's got a point, but then again this is a VP vs a P candidate. Voter's don't care as much as they should about somebody who is largely chosen to boost up the primary candidate, not on their own credentials.

Honestly, McCain was starting to get to me a bit, until he chose Palin. I'm back to a turd sandwich and a giant douche.

[thefarmer]

And the liberals here would be saying it's no big deal.

You are all a bunch of hypocrites.

Not really.

I realized how it looked, and added the edit to make sure it was clear.

[Parkbandit]

Honestly, McCain was starting to get to me a bit, until he chose Palin. I'm back to a turd sandwich and a giant douche.


Um.. while I appreciate your support.. I'm not running for President.

[Audriana]

Oh PB... joo so funny

[Apathy]

I'm pretty sure crb meant the Juneau vote.

[crb]

Do you actually read the news before you post these sorts of things? I haven't read anything about Palin being a bad mother, that she spends too much time from

I have, it is utterly sexist and uncalled for.


or that they are after the "Juno" vote.

That my dear, was a joke. Humor, the other other white meat.

[crb]

Pandering for the "Juno" vote? WTF is that? The underage teeange daughter vote? (the fact that they're not 18 seems to have escaped you.) Or is it the movie fan vote? (yes, because a substantial amount of Americans are obviously stupid enough to change their vote on the basis of a fictional movie /sarcasm)

Have you no sense of humor?



Had this been Obama's daughter who was knocked up at 17, people like Crb would be pointing out the flaws in Obama's family values, etc.

Instead, since it's the daughter of the nominee of the party he endorses, he chooses to throw phrases like 'classless liberals" and question Obama's "balls" about reining in people he has no control over.

EDIT: The tactics the other side decries, is exactly what they'd do had the situation been reversed (Obama's kid knocked up).

No, I wouldn't, I'm no social conservative. But thanks for lumping me in with the ClydeR crowd.

Nor would I agree with any attacks had the roles been reversed. This really, is not a pregnancy issue, this is a going after the kids issue. It is inappropriate. Which is why I said Kudos to Obama.

A surrogate can be defined anyway you like. They don't have to be, in my mind, affiliated with the campaign. If someone unaffiliated with the campaign makes an inappropriate attack Obama & McCain both need to denounce it, forcefully. McCain always does (see Tennessee GOP, New Yorker cover). Obama usually does, a few times though (see MoveOn.org) he hasn't.

Certainly we can agree that attacking kids is a bad thing to do in politics, right?

[Audriana]

I certainly try to never attack kids... Not since that stint in rehab...

Kids are stupid, no doubt there. But at what age do you stop blaming the parents? If she got preggers at 14? If her son had killed a raped a puppy at the age of 15, do we chalk that up to bad parents or curiosity?

At some point, your inability to raise a cohesive, functional family has to reflect you as a person and your ability to make decisions.


It seems a lot like the whole debate on violence in video games. At what point is it the parent's fault?

[diethx]

This really, is not a pregnancy issue, this is a going after the kids issue.

Uh, or it's a "LOL abstinence" issue, and it makes you wonder why the ultra-conservatives still think it's the only way to teach even after it hits home like that. BECAUSE IT WORKS, AMIRITE?!

[Stanley Burrell]

What I don't give:

http://www.jpallas.com/intellectual-tools/FlyingExpletive.gif

[Kembal]

Have you no sense of humor?

Learn to write in a style (or use italics) where one could get your humor. I don't think anyone got it, esp. considering no one here at the PC made the other attacks you claimed, and I hadn't seen one prominent blogger even make those attacks. (a random Daily Kos diary that's not on the frontpage is about as official as one of your or my posts on this board, i.e. none.)



A surrogate can be defined anyway you like. They don't have to be, in my mind, affiliated with the campaign. If someone unaffiliated with the campaign makes an inappropriate attack Obama & McCain both need to denounce it, forcefully. McCain always does (see Tennessee GOP, New Yorker cover). Obama usually does, a few times though (see MoveOn.org) he hasn't.

No, a surrogate is officially affiliated to the campaign. (state party, adviser, spokesperson, etc.) Otherwise, I should be calling the McCain campaign to denounce you whenever I think you make a stupid comment.

And, by the way, McCain does not always denounce inappropriate attacks. Go see his comments about Jerome Corsi's debunked book, for example. (ironically, he said exactly what you said in response to my post, that Obama should have "a sense of humor" about the book.)


Certainly we can agree that attacking kids is a bad thing to do in politics, right?

And unsurprisingly, no one's attacked Bristol Palin. They've attacked McCain for his idiocy in not VETTING Sarah Palin before selecting her.

[crb]

No, a surrogate is officially affiliated to the campaign. (state party, adviser, spokesperson, etc.) Otherwise, I should be calling the McCain campaign to denounce you whenever I think you make a stupid comment.

As you define it, I was not defining it as such when I used it. As I said, you can define it as you wish.

[Kembal]

As you define it, I was not defining it as such when I used it. As I said, you can define it as you wish.

Fine. You saw that I took your 1 million silver bet on the Palin troopergate scandal, correct?

[Durgrimst]

Girls like to have sex. The End.

I don't feel like reading this thread, but I am pretty sure this is the only post worth reading....

[Tisket]

Kids are stupid, no doubt there. But at what age do you stop blaming the parents? If she got preggers at 14? If her son had killed a raped a puppy at the age of 15, do we chalk that up to bad parents or curiosity?

At some point, your inability to raise a cohesive, functional family has to reflect you as a person and your ability to make decisions.

It seems a lot like the whole debate on violence in video games. At what point is it the parent's fault?

Are you seriously comparing teen pregnancy to bestiality? I'm hoping I misread that.

Anyway, you are a little bit right, but still mostly wrong. A parent does indeed have the ability to influence their offspring, but we do not control them. Some teens are just going to do what they want to do no matter what you tell them or how good of a parent you were.

[Belnia]

Drug addicts are horrible, terrible people.
Drug addicted conservative talk show hosts have a terrible problem and desperately need our prayers, help and support to get through a tough time.
I think both sides of the aisle are guilty on this one.

And I really do think that kids should never be brought into the political arena. It's one thing if they're over 18, but for those under 18 they should be left alone. God forbid any of us here be judged for shit we did when we were 17 or younger.

[Parkbandit]

What I don't give:

http://www.jpallas.com/intellectual-tools/FlyingExpletive.gif


What you don't ever get either.

[Stanley Burrell]

What you don't ever get either.

You shut up. I'll have sex on an airplane. With myself. But still.

[Tisket]

lol I'm actually a member of the Mile High Club. For realz. My husband is crafty.

[TheEschaton]

A) I agree Palin's daughter should never be brought up by any campaign.

B) I also think McCain's camp should never be like, "But she has son in military!" since, of course, kids are off limits.

C) I can't believe you think bloggers are "surrogates" crb, that's disingenuous at best.

D) As for Obama sometimes not decrying certain attacks because they're deemed "offensive" by the hysterical right, that may be because it's a legitimate campaign issue. The war is one of those (which I believe was the subject of MoveOn's ad, even if it was done in poor form).

-TheE-

[Daniel]

It will be interesting to see her respond to questions about sex education.

[Gan]

It will be interesting to see her respond to questions about sex education.

God created sex. Therefore it is all good. ;)

[Clove]

Had this been Obama's daughter who was knocked up at 17, people like Crb would be pointing out the flaws in Obama's family values, etc.Let's make the comparison fair. Would they be pointing it out if it were Biden's daughter? (the answer is yes, but Palin/=Obama just as McCain/=Biden).

[Back]

Lets be really fair... this is a stupid topic.

[Daniel]

How is that a fair comparison? All of a sudden someone has a vastly different gauge for family values if they are the Presidential Candidate versus the Vice-President?

[Clove]

I don't think a daughter's teen-pregnancy, or a son in he military, or a pastor who is nuts, or a wife who owns a business, or how many houses someone has, or whether or not they know unsavory people really speaks to their:

1) Plans for this nation
2) Ability to make them happen

I'm interested in those two things first. All this bullshit just detracts from any of that (not that either camp has been very specific with plans yet IMO).

[Daniel]

I don't think a daughter's teen-pregnancy, or a son in he military, or a pastor who is nuts, or a wife who owns a business, or how many houses someone has, or whether or not they know unsavory people really speaks to their:

1) Plans for this nation
2) Ability to make them happen

I'm interested in those two things first. All this bullshit just detracts from any of that (not that either camp has been very specific with plans yet IMO).

I agree 100% but I think it's silly to suggest that the right wingers won't be having a circus right now if Obama's kid was pregnant.

Does that say anything about McCain-Palin? No.

But it does say something about the Republican Party and the Evangelical right at large.

[Clove]

How is that a fair comparison? All of a sudden someone has a vastly different gauge for family values if they are the Presidential Candidate versus the Vice-President?Uh, if you don't see he difference between a VP and President than I don't know what to tell you. Saying "You'd criticize McCain for that but not Obama" (or vice versa) is NOT the same as saying "You'd criticize Biden for that but not McCain" Vice President just isn't as important an office as President. They are different, though both extremely important positions and scrutinized by the public and held to high standards, they are still not equal.

[Clove]

I agree 100% but I think it's silly to suggest that the right wingers won't be having a circus right now if Obama's kid was pregnant...Sure they would, and they'd probably hold a circus if it were Biden's kid. I'm just saying if you're going to make comparisons, compare apples to apples. Call it a sense of aesthetics, if you must.

[Back]

Sure they would, and they'd probably hold a circus if it were Biden's kid. I'm just saying if you're going to make comparisons, compare apples to apples. Call it a sense of aesthetics, if you must.

So it’s ok for a republican daughter to have premarital sex without contraception but everyone else is on welfare?

[Clove]

So it’s ok for a republican daughter to have premarital sex without contraception but everyone else is on welfare?Go nuke the gay baby whales for Jesus and STFU.

[Daniel]

Uh, if you don't see he difference between a VP and President than I don't know what to tell you. Saying "You'd criticize McCain for that but not Obama" (or vice versa) is NOT the same as saying "You'd criticize Biden for that but not McCain" Vice President just isn't as important an office as President. They are different, though both extremely important positions and scrutinized by the public and held to high standards, they are still not equal.

We're talking about two different things. You're talking about the impact of family values on an election and I'm talking about the actual measurement of family values.

The value judgement on whether or not someone has good value families should not shift with what position the person is pursuiing. It should be the same whether or not it's You, I or Joe Biden.

I honestly don't think it should be an issue unless you're likely to go out and try and bang Sarkozy's wife.

[Clove]

I don't think it should be an issue at all either. But I think if you're going to show outrage over it compare VP to VP not VP to President. Otherwise you just add a complication to sidetrack issues further (i.e. is it worse for a Pres vs VP etc). In the end it's all trivial bullshit. Let's hear about their plans to run the country and let's discuss the viability of those plans, pros and cons of those plans, and the candidates ability to implement them.

[Daniel]

and I don't think it matters :shrug: If you're going to be outraged, then be outraged equally. It's not like Republicans give any leniency to those in fucked up situations, let alone a vice presidential candidate.

[Back]

Go nuke the gay baby whales for Jesus and STFU.

???

Ok, little hostile dude. Calm down. Don’t let the rage (whatever it is) get to you so much.

[Daniel]

To respond to the edit:

I think the issues is where this is going to get the most play. It would be disingenuous at best for a democrat to attack Palin over a lack of family values and I doubt you'll see that happen. However, it will be interesting to see how Palin and the Republican party treat several issues with this.

Palin can't come out and attribute a lot of the problems of America to a lack of social values, which is the cornerstone of a lot of far right policies regarding social welfare and it she definitely shouldn't be talking too much about sex based education. So, how will she respond to questions about these things? I don't know. I'd hope she'd be a bit more reasonable than the PB and CRB's of the world, but I think that opens up the question of how those people will perceive any response of hers.

It will be interesting to be sure.

[Apathy]

But it does say something about the Republican Party and the Evangelical right at large.

If you're referring to Palin herself as an Evangelical i'm 99% sure she's actually Pentecostal. Which I'm surprised the libertarian posters, self proclaimed or not, aren't more interested in how much her religion will influence her politics.

I very much am.

[Daniel]

What's the significance of being pentecostal? The Wikipedia entry says that most of them identify as evangelicals.

[Gan]

So Palin is the anti-Christ?

I always knew it would be a woman...

Someone find out what Palin's favorite fruit is. If its an apple, I'm crying foul!

[Apathy]

What's the significance of being pentecostal? The Wikipedia entry says that most of them identify as evangelicals.

Just going off education...no firsthand experience.

Pentecostalism itself isn't a defined religion. It's more like a sect of christians in a certain area that agree on certain things. She could actually technically be both pentecostal and evangelist, but I'm pretty sure she was a baptized catholic who went to pentecostal (something that is actually a concern to rome, zomg why we losing members?!)

I took a look at the Wiki and it's loaded with qualifiers (most, typically, usually, etc.)

Some of these sects are just that, a sect. It's much more popular in the south than in the north but it is spreading due to the community-basis it takes. Members are very family, community oriented. Some of the other sects are more cult like. The snake charmers are the first example that always pops to mind, but they do not define every pentecostal.

I find significance in her situation because of her belief of teaching only one part of one religion in state funded schools, opposition to abortion in every situation, opposition to gay unions. Again, not directly related to all pentecostals, but its difficult to tell what other theocratic beliefs she may hold.

Now if she decides to separate her religion from her state duties, this is all moot.

[Khariz]

I can't believe that Palin would punish her kid with a child..

Quoted for being the best piece of text in this thread.

[BigWorm]

It's pretty clear she's exercised extremely bad judgement in naming her kids:

Sons: Track (19) and Trig (4 months)
Daughters: Bristol (17), Willow (14) and Piper (7)

Epic fail.

[Gelston]

Those names would probably show up on the Badnames list if they were GS characters.

[Paradii]

It's pretty clear she's exercised extremely bad judgement in naming her kids:

Sons: Track (19) and Trig (4 months)
Daughters: Bristol (17), Willow (14) and Piper (7)

Epic fail.

Sounds like she was just doing the "open the dictionary to a random page and stick your finger down blindfolded" approach to naming her kids.

[Mabus]

Sounds like she was just doing the "open the dictionary to a random page and stick your finger down blindfolded" approach to naming her kids.
Obama's associations with a militant-racist preacher for half his life; not an issue.

Obama's associations with an admitted domestic terrorist; not an issue.

Palin's ability to name her children the way you think they should be named; a disqualification for office.

Priceless.

[Parkbandit]

(I'm pretty sure Paradii and BigWorm were kidding... just sayin)

[Stanley Burrell]

What's the significance of being pentecostal?

You get to do awesome shit with snakes AS YOUR RELIGION. That has to be the epitome of cool. Or stupid.

[Clove]

???

Ok, little hostile dude. Calm down. Don’t let the rage (whatever it is) get to you so much.I'll calm down when you either:

1) Grow a brain stem and contribute something useful to a serious discussion
2) STFU.

[crb]

Palin can't come out and attribute a lot of the problems of America to a lack of social values, which is the cornerstone of a lot of far right policies regarding social welfare and it she definitely shouldn't be talking too much about sex based education. So, how will she respond to questions about these things? I don't know. I'd hope she'd be a bit more reasonable than the PB and CRB's of the world, but I think that opens up the question of how those people will perceive any response of hers.

It will be interesting to be sure.

Again... I am NOT a social conservative.

If I were dictator I would provide free birth control in highschool, so don't try to pin bible thumper policy on me, it is an ill fit.

[Daniel]

The point wasn't that you were a social conservative but rather that your hypocrisy and blindness knows no bounds in trying to push your agenda.

[AnticorRifling]

This is when you have your daughter die in a car crash. Problem goes away, everyone is now sad for your loss, etc. etc.

Or am I the only sick bastard that thinks like this?

[Parkbandit]

This is when you have your daughter die in a car crash. Problem goes away, everyone is now sad for your loss, etc. etc.

Or am I the only sick bastard that thinks like this?

I doubt Ted Kennedy is in any condition to drive.

[AnticorRifling]

I doubt Ted Kennedy is in any condition to drive.

That never stopped him before.

[Jorddyn]

And the liberals here would be saying it's no big deal.
You are all a bunch of hypocrites.

The only question I'd ask is how she thinks the abstinence only education she supports is working.

[Clove]

I guess I'll always fail to miss the point over issues like this. Her daughter got pregnant and her family is managing the consequences of that. Isn't that what social conservatives advocate? Personal responsibility in these situations?

[Clove]

The only question I'd ask is how she thinks the abstinence only education she supports is working.There's where things get sticky for her. Or embarrassing at the very least; that's a dumb policy and Palin has seen that first hand. Let's see if she modifies her policy.

[Parkbandit]

The only question I'd ask is how she thinks the abstinence only education she supports is working.

I hadn't realized that simply educating someone is 100% deterent to modify that behavior.

Awesome. If it works that way, sign me up.

[AnticorRifling]

I hadn't realized that simply educating someone is 100% deterent to modify that behavior.

Awesome. If it works that way, sign me up.
Anti-douche education inc. ZING BURNT PWNT

[Jorddyn]

I hadn't realized that simply educating someone is 100% deterent to modify that behavior.

My entire point is that it isn't.

[Parkbandit]

My entire point is that it isn't.

Pretty sure that there isn't a sane person who believes it does...

[Jorddyn]

Pretty sure that there isn't a sane person who believes it does...

Which is why I think we should be questioning Palin's stance that abstinence only education is the way to go, instead of including birth control in the discussion.

[Audriana]

Pretty sure that there isn't a sane person who believes it does...

Conservatives sure seem to think so. They don't seem to think that kids are going to have sex if you tell them it's evil and wrong.

D.A.R.E. teaches kids that drugs are evil and wrong too... I still haven't met anybody in my personal life that hasn't at least tried smoking pot.

[Solkern]

WTF cares if her daughter is having a child, it had nothing to do with politics

[Jorddyn]

WTF cares if her daughter is having a child, it had nothing to do with politics

I don't really care that her daughter is having a child. I care that she supports a ridiculous policy based on her morality, even though there's proof within her own family that it doesn't work well.

[AnticorRifling]

D.A.R.E. teaches kids that drugs are evil and wrong too... I still haven't met anybody in my personal life that hasn't at least tried smoking pot.

Hi.

[Khariz]

I don't really care that her daughter is having a child. I care that she supports a ridiculous policy based on her morality, even though there's proof within her own family that it doesn't work well.

I think this is a good point. As much as I think abstinance is the ideal way to avoid pregnancy and STDs, kids will be kids, so at least telling you kid "look, if you are gonna fuck even though I told you not to, at least wear a rubber mmmmkay?" is not that bad.

[Parkbandit]

Conservatives sure seem to think so. They don't seem to think that kids are going to have sex if you tell them it's evil and wrong.

D.A.R.E. teaches kids that drugs are evil and wrong too... I still haven't met anybody in my personal life that hasn't at least tried smoking pot.

Please provide a link where it is believed by conservatives that education is a 100% guarantee to correct behavior. Until that link is provided by you, I'll continue to believe that you are just another dumb liberal bitch without an intelligent thought.

And if you haven't met a single person in your life that hasn't tried pot, then perhaps you should find a new circle of friends. While I don't condone it or condemn it, I know many, many people who've never ever tried it... including my wife.

[Solkern]

I don't really care that her daughter is having a child. I care that she supports a ridiculous policy based on her morality, even though there's proof within her own family that it doesn't work well.

did you listen to every damn thing your parents said?

did you ever break some rules?

thought so

Shit happens, she can only show her child the way, it's up to the kid to follow or not

All b/c it didn't work perfectly in "her" family doesn't mean shit
your basing one instance to sum the entire.

[Tisket]

I still haven't met anybody in my personal life that hasn't at least tried smoking pot.

Hello.

(unless you are also including secondhand exposure. My friends were no saints.)

[Jorddyn]

did you listen to every damn thing your parents said?
did you ever break some rules?
thought so

Of course I did. Which is why telling me no, and then not educating me on potential ways to protect myself when I ignore you telling me no, is not an effective way to reduce pregnancy.


All b/c it didn't work perfectly in "her" family doesn't mean shit your basing one instance to sum the entire.

Actually, I'm not. There are studies that have been done which show that abstinence only education is not effective. One of the stories on Palin on the cover of msnbc.com today addresses that fact, if you don't believe me.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26501011/

My point is that studies show it doesn't work. Her own daughter got pregnant. "NO NO DON'T DO THAT" is a dumb policy, it doesn't work, and she needs to adjust her thinking.

[Audriana]

Please provide a link where it is believed by conservatives that education is a 100% guarantee to correct behavior.

So you think it's a good policy?
Your idea is: So what if it doesn't work for shit, the pregnancy, STD, and HS dropout rate will skyrocket if it's implemented country-wide, it's my moral obligation to not condone extramarital sex in any way shape or form.

[Gan]

Hello.

(unless you are also including secondhand exposure. My friends were no saints.)

Ditto.

I hate smoking in general.

I've been high from being around friends who have lit up (contact high?). But I've never smoked it. Never had the need or desire to.

[crb]

Of course I did. Which is why telling me no, and then not educating me on potential ways to protect myself when I ignore you telling me no, is not an effective way to reduce pregnancy.



Actually, I'm not. There are studies that have been done which show that abstinence only education is not effective. One of the stories on Palin on the cover of msnbc.com today addresses that fact, if you don't believe me.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26501011/

My point is that studies show it doesn't work. Her own daughter got pregnant. "NO NO DON'T DO THAT" is a dumb policy, it doesn't work, and she needs to adjust her thinking.
I'm not in favor of abstinence, alright, but you're still pretty off base. (and MSNBC is about as unbiased as source as MoveOn.org).

1. You don't know how she got pregnant. You don't know her personal situation. You don't know if she was on the pill, or used a condom. You don't know what her local highschool sexual education course taught, you don't know what her parents told her. You don't know jack shit and it is wrong to try to politicize the issue in this way.

2. If the daughter of someone who favors abstinence getting pregnant is proof that abstinence doesn't work, I suppose the daughter of someone favoring the (admittedly more realistic in my opinion) comprehensive sexual education that includes discussion of all forms of contraceptives as well as intercourse alternatives (oral sex, mutual masturbating, etc) getting pregnant would invalidate that opinion right?

Let us ask ourselves this question, did, during the Clinton administration, any girls who were teenage daughters of people supporting such sexual education get pregnant? I bet you some did, why? Because teenagers like to have sex. Does it invalidate the policy? No.

Don't use her daughter's pregnancy to try to score political points, it isn't classy.

Also... I just spent 1 minute googling and found this:

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJ0G34BcX2d_qJk58Vwr-yBQX3ow



Apr 14, 2008

CHICAGO (AFP) — The teen pregnancy rate in the United States has fallen to historic lows, abortion rates have declined dramatically and more women are having children out of wedlock, a study published Monday said.


I won't claim that that abstinence only is a good idea, but in a rational discussion you would have to acknowledge that, despite the way the media covers the issue, pregnancies have gone down.

[Gan]

Conservatives sure seem to think so. They don't seem to think that kids are going to have sex if you tell them it's evil and wrong.

D.A.R.E. teaches kids that drugs are evil and wrong too... I still haven't met anybody in my personal life that hasn't at least tried smoking pot.

You really seem to love blanket statements dont you?

Not ALL conservatives agree with what you just said, regardless if your opinion implies it.

[Tisket]

I'm reminded of a girl I went to high school with. She was the daughter of the school district's health services director. And pregnant at 15.

Anyway, I'm actually not a fan of abstinence only education but come on, teens are going to do stupid shit like have unprotected sex no matter what you teach them. Even so, sex education in Alaskan schools is pretty comprehensive so I doubt Palin's daughter or her child's father failed to encounter mention of condoms, etc.

[Jorddyn]

I won't claim that that abstinence only is a good idea, but in a rational discussion you would have to acknowledge that, despite the way the media covers the issue, pregnancies have gone down.

And if you'd read the link I posted, you would have learned that they decreased significantly more in states where sex ed was more than "Don't do it."


Let us ask ourselves this question, did, during the Clinton administration, any girls who were teenage daughters of people supporting such sexual education get pregnant? I bet you some did, why? Because teenagers like to have sex. Does it invalidate the policy? No.

The difference is that abstinence only education deliberately and specifically leaves something out, for largely moral rather than scientific or health-related reasons. If you give someone all of the information, and they still error, then at least you can claim you did your best. If you give them half the information, you're left wondering if perhaps you should have provided more.


Don't use her daughter's pregnancy to try to score political points, it isn't classy.

I don't claim to be classy. And I don't feel that questioning her on her own well publicized stance is using her daughter's pregnancy to try to score political points. It's not like I'm declaring her an unfit mother (which I don't believe). I'm simply asking her to reconcile her political beliefs with her reality. See also: Dick Cheney and his lesbian daughter.

[Solkern]

I'm not in favor of abstinence, alright, but you're still pretty off base. (and MSNBC is about as unbiased as source as MoveOn.org).

1. You don't know how she got pregnant. You don't know her personal situation. You don't know if she was on the pill, or used a condom. You don't know what her local highschool sexual education course taught, you don't know what her parents told her. You don't know jack shit and it is wrong to try to politicize the issue in this way.

2. If the daughter of someone who favors abstinence getting pregnant is proof that abstinence doesn't work, I suppose the daughter of someone favoring the (admittedly more realistic in my opinion) comprehensive sexual education that includes discussion of all forms of contraceptives as well as intercourse alternatives (oral sex, mutual masturbating, etc) getting pregnant would invalidate that opinion right?

Let us ask ourselves this question, did, during the Clinton administration, any girls who were teenage daughters of people supporting such sexual education get pregnant? I bet you some did, why? Because teenagers like to have sex. Does it invalidate the policy? No.

Don't use her daughter's pregnancy to try to score political points, it isn't classy.

Also... I just spent 1 minute googling and found this:

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJ0G34BcX2d_qJk58Vwr-yBQX3ow



I won't claim that that abstinence only is a good idea, but in a rational discussion you would have to acknowledge that, despite the way the media covers the issue, pregnancies have gone down.

thank you for expanding on the point I was trying to cross lol

[Solkern]

And if you'd read the link I posted, you would have learned that they decreased significantly more in states where sex ed was more than "Don't do it."



The difference is that abstinence only education deliberately and specifically leaves something out, for largely moral rather than scientific or health-related reasons. If you give someone all of the information, and they still error, then at least you can claim you did your best. If you give them half the information, you're left wondering if perhaps you should have provided more.



I don't claim to be classy. And I don't feel that questioning her on her own well publicized stance is using her daughter's pregnancy to try to score political points. It's not like I'm declaring her an unfit mother (which I don't believe). I'm simply asking her to reconcile her political beliefs with her reality. See also: Dick Cheney and his lesbian daughter.


People are told not to do drugs, drink and drive, fuck before marriage, use protection during sex, blah blah blah the list goes on
yet shit still happens
No matter what you teach people, no matter how much information you give them, it doesn't fucking matter, when it comes down to it, people do what ever the fuck they want

[CrystalTears]

I would have been concerned if Palin encouraged her daughter to get an abortion. THAT would have been news. But a teen going against their parent's rules and doing shit anyway? I know, shocker.

[Jorddyn]

No matter what you teach people, no matter how much information you give them, it doesn't fucking matter, when it comes down to it, people do what ever the fuck they want

Actually, it does matter. Again, see the MSNBC link I posted. Or, here, let me quote the relevant part for you.


Data has debunked the abstinence-only approach as wishful thinking. Texas, for example, which strongly endorses abstinence-only, and demands parental consent before teenagers can get contraception, leads the nation in its rate of teen pregnancies, dropping only by 19 percent from 1991 to 2004 while the rest of country dropped by over 30 percent.

Meanwhile in California, where comprehensive sex-education is mandatory in public schools, the teen pregnancy rate dropped by 47 percent.

More information = less pregnancy.

I suppose it does depend on your goal, though. If your goal is less teenage sex, perhaps abstinence only education works better. I don't know of any studies on that topic. But it would seem to me that less pregnancy would be a more pressing goal, in which case comprehensive education wins.

We all know kids are stupid. We all know kids don't do what their parents tell them to do. Why, then, don't we all realize the stupidity of the sum total of sex education (in terms of birth control) being "don't do it"?

[Keller]

Pretty sure that there isn't a sane person who believes it does...

So we both agree that Palin is insane?

Good.

[Clove]

I don't really care that her daughter is having a child. I care that she supports a ridiculous policy based on her morality, even though there's proof within her own family that it doesn't work well.Well, it worked until she was 17; if the poor girl had made it one more year this would all be moot.

Bear in mind that I don't believe that Abstinence-Only Education is the way to go, however, Palin's 17 year-old daughter being pregnant doesn't prove, or disprove the effectiveness of her policy (as I'm pretty sure nobody claims that sex-education in any form will eliminate the possibility of teen-pregnancy entirely). It proves that Republicans aren't immune to the irony of life.

[Jorddyn]

Palin's 17 year-old daughter being pregnant doesn't prove, or disprove the effectiveness of her policy

You're right. I should have used the phrase "anecdotal evidence".

[Keller]

I would have been concerned if Palin encouraged her daughter to get an abortion. THAT would have been news. But a teen going against their parent's rules and doing shit anyway? I know, shocker.

The point is not that she disobeyed her mother but her mother's stance against employing sex-ed in public schools.

Her daughter's pregnancy just gives a solid illustration of a failed political doctrine based upon an 1800 year old fairy tale.

[Clove]

You're right. I should have used the phrase "anecdotal evidence".It makes her look like an ass for sure. But I really don't think this story has much to do with her effectiveness as an executive. I consider this as germane as the Wright hooplah was to Obama's effectiveness as an executive. It's a distraction. It's entertainment. It's provocative fluff.

[Parkbandit]

So you think it's a good policy?
Your idea is: So what if it doesn't work for shit, the pregnancy, STD, and HS dropout rate will skyrocket if it's implemented country-wide, it's my moral obligation to not condone extramarital sex in any way shape or form.

Wow.. assume much? Looks like I hit this nail right on the head:


Please provide a link where it is believed by conservatives that education is a 100% guarantee to correct behavior. Until that link is provided by you, I'll continue to believe that you are just another dumb liberal bitch without an intelligent thought.

[Clove]

Her daughter's pregnancy just gives a solid illustration of a failed political doctrine based upon an 1800 year old fairy tale.Is that the one where Asian women have sideways cootchies?

[CrystalTears]

The point is not that she disobeyed her mother but her mother's stance against employing sex-ed in public schools.

Her daughter's pregnancy just gives a solid illustration of a failed political doctrine based upon an 1800 year old fairy tale.
No, her daughter's pregnancy gives a solid illustration that kids will be kids and will fuck if they want to, no matter what their parents believe.

Since there is no proof that of whether the teen was told of alternative methods, it doesn't disprove her doctrine either.

[Jorddyn]

It's a distraction. It's entertainment. It's provocative fluff.

I'd question her stance on sex ed regardless of her daughter's pregnancy.

I'm not voting for her anyway, but she may be my future vice president, and I'd like to know that she's not just sticking her fingers in her ears and ignoring the facts, especially given her circumstances.

[Solkern]

Her circumstances?

oh you mean her DAUGHTERS circumestances

her daughter isn't running for VP

thanks

[Keller]

No, her daughter's pregnancy gives a solid illustration that kids will be kids and will fuck if they want to, no matter what their parents believe.

Since there is no proof that of whether the teen was told of alternative methods, it doesn't disprove her doctrine either.

Do you believe that abstinence-only education is more effective at preventing unwanted pregnancies than sex-ed?

[Jorddyn]

Since there is no proof that of whether the teen was told of alternative methods, it doesn't disprove her doctrine either.

I agree. But why shouldn't we question it?

[Keller]

Her circumstances?

oh you mean her DAUGHTERS circumestances

Oh, so having a teen-age mother as a daughter isn't your circumstance?

You're deranged.

[Solkern]

Oh, so having a teen-age mother as a daughter isn't your circumstance?

You're deranged.


in relationship to running for VP?

no not at all

[Keller]

in relationship to running for VP?

no not at all

Way to juke the question altogether.

Evasion is only a 15 second buff, I'll ask you again during the cooldown.

[Jorddyn]

Her circumstances?

oh you mean her DAUGHTERS circumestances

her daughter isn't running for VP

thanks

No, I mean her circumstances.

She's a politician. She preaches abstinence only. Abstinence only has been proven less effective than comprehensive sex-ed, and her daughter is pregnant. Does she change her stance, or does she continue to believe her path is best, ignoring both personal experiences and scientific studies?

[CrystalTears]

Do you believe that abstinence-only education is more effective at preventing unwanted pregnancies than sex-ed?
Nope. I'm all for sex education classes in school simply because that's how I was taught primarily.

My aunts spoke to me about sex, to not partake while I wasn't married, but that if I did, to practice safe sex and to talk to them about it. My mother, I love her to death, but she was useless when it came to talking about any of that. She cried for two days when she found out her best friend at the time encouraged me to try tampons when I was 13. "OMG now she's no longer a virgin!"

When I went to a religious marriage retreat during my first marriage, they had a whole afternoon dedicated to abstinence. My ex kept snickering and kicking me under the table. Yeah, it wasn't going to happen.

I believe in teaching ALL sex education... abstinence, rhythm method, birth control pills, condoms... teach them all. Parents aren't going to do it effectively, in my opinion. And I'm also for distributing condoms as requested from the school nurse. If they're going to indulge, at least be protective about it.

[BigWorm]

What's the point of abstinence education if they're just going to fuck anyway?

[Keller]

Nope. I'm all for sex education classes in school simply because that's how I was taught primarily.

My aunts spoke to me about sex, to not partake while I wasn't married, but that if I did, to practice safe sex and to talk to them about it. My mother, I love her to death, but she was useless when it came to talking about any of that. She cried for two days when she found out her best friend at the time encouraged me to try tampons when I was 13. "OMG now she's no longer a virgin!"

When I went to a religious marriage retreat during my first marriage, they had a whole afternoon dedicated to abstinence. My ex kept snickering and kicking me under the table. Yeah, it wasn't going to happen.

I believe in teaching ALL sex education... abstinence, rhythm method, birth control pills, condoms... teach them all. Parents aren't going to do it effectively, in my opinion. And I'm also for distributing condoms as requested from the school nurse. If they're going to indulge, at least be protective about it.

Good. We agree.

[CrystalTears]

I'm just saying that just because Palin insists on abstinence doesn't mean that her teen didn't know anything about protection or other methods. And it also doesn't mean that McCain will advocate and agree to such a thing.

[Ilvane]

Okay, here's some info on McCain's stance on contraceptives and other methods.

Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education and contraceptives. Vote to adopt an amendment to the Senate's 2006 Fiscal Year Budget that allocates $100 million for the prevention of unintended pregnancies.

Appropriation to expand access to preventive health care services; Bill S.Amdt. 244 to S Con Res 18 ; vote number 2005-75 on Mar 17, 2005

He has boasted that he "consistently voted against taxpayer-funded contraception programs."

Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education and contraceptives. Vote to adopt an amendment to the Senate's 2006 Fiscal Year Budget that allocates $100 million for the prevention of unintended pregnancies.

Appropriation to expand access to preventive health care services; Bill S.Amdt. 244 to S Con Res 18 ; vote number 2005-75 on Mar 17, 2005

Voted YES on $75M for abstinence education. Vote to retain a provision of the Budget Act that funds abstinence education to help reduce teenage pregnancy, using $75 million of the Maternal and Child Health Block Grant Program.

Bill S 1956 ; vote number 1996-231 on Jul 23, 1996

[Tisket]

Rename this thread "Babygate".

[Parkbandit]

Or.. Desperategate.

[Clove]

What's the point of abstinence education if they're just going to fuck anyway?What's the good of teaching about birth-control methods if they're just going to fuck without using them anyway?

[Clove]

Rename this thread "Babygate".I'm thinking impure thoughts about you again Tisket.

[Tisket]

lol

[TheWitch]

It makes her look like an ass for sure. But I really don't think this story has much to do with her effectiveness as an executive. I consider this as germane as the Wright hooplah was to Obama's effectiveness as an executive. It's a distraction. It's entertainment. It's provocative fluff.

Yup, its a distraction, and a damn bad one - given the platform the party in question has.

I agree 150%, children should be left out of it. In a perfect world, they would be. This world being as imperfect as it is, it's not going to happen. And for myself, it's a non-issue. I think it's a tragedy, especially since the poor kid is going to marry the 17 year old father. Yea, that'll end well.

My questions:

How will the collective issues surrounding Palin - the cop thing, the special projects funding, etc., possibly be spun to put her in a positive light?

More importantly, how does her selection reflect on McCain's judgement?

My answers, thus far:

There's no way to spin this that she looks good, and in his first major decision as the Republican nominee for President of the United States - selecting a running mate, he totally and completely blew it.

And not because of the cop thing, or the special projects, or the pregnant daughter or any of it.

They lost me completely when the woman said, "I can't answer that until someone answers the question, what exactly does the Vice President do all day?" I guess being second in command to a geriatric cancer survivor isn't enough to fill her day?

Part of me thinks wiley ol'coyote McCain picked her intentionally, so he could dump her, and be able to say "Hey! I tried to have a woman running mate, I'm hip, I'm with it! It didn't work, sorry!"

Cthulhu for President.

[Gan]

What's the good of teaching about birth-control methods if they're just going to fuck without using them anyway?

Bingo

[Jorddyn]

What's the good of teaching about birth-control methods if they're just going to fuck without using them anyway?

More education = less pregnancy.

[Clove]

More education = less pregnancy.Ah, like anti-drug education means less addicts? Or maybe alcohol awareness classes mean less drunk driving? What makes you think that you can't get kids to abstain, but you CAN get kids to use birth-control when they're drunk in the parking lot and ready to bang a hottie?

[Jorddyn]

Ah, like anti-drug education means less addicts?

Not the same thing.

Comprehensive sex ed includes a myriad of topics, including abstinence, birth control, and non-intercourse "options".

Anti-drug education = "DON'T DO IT!", which would in fact be like abstinence only education.

Edited since you added:

Or maybe alcohol awareness classes mean less drunk driving?

I'm not aware of the statistics on this. Logically, this would relate to comprehensive sex-ed and should therefore have similar results, but I honestly don't know.


What makes you think that you can't get kids to abstain, but you CAN get kids to use birth-control

Because of the results that comprehensive sex ed has had.


when they're drunk in the parking lot and ready to bang a hottie?

Nothing is 100%. It's not a cure-all. But it has been shown to work better than "don't do it!". Imagine what would happen if every parent stuffed condoms in the purse/wallet/pockets of their teenagers. Then they'd be prepared for being drunk in the parking lot with a hottie. Note: I'm not encouraging or condoning being drunk in the parking lot with a hottie. I'm advocating being prepared for such a situation because you just never know where you're going to end up.

[Gan]

Not the same thing.

Comprehensive sex ed includes a myriad of topics, including abstinence, birth control, and non-intercourse "options".

Anti-drug education = "DON'T DO IT!", which would in fact be like abstinence only education.

Edited since you added:


I'm not aware of the statistics on this. Logically, this would relate to comprehensive sex-ed and should therefore have similar results, but I honestly don't know.



Because of the results that comprehensive sex ed has had.



Nothing is 100%. It's not a cure-all. But it has been shown to work better than "don't do it!". Imagine what would happen if every parent stuffed condoms in the purse/wallet/pockets of their teenagers. Then they'd be prepared for being drunk in the parking lot with a hottie. Note: I'm not encouraging or condoning being drunk in the parking lot with a hottie. I'm advocating being prepared for such a situation because you just never know where you're going to end up.

Thats not an apples to apples comparison.

I know some anti-drug education that teaches needle saftey, drug use hygenics, etc. Thats not the same as simply DONT DO IT!

Sex education != abstinence education (one's global where the other's specific)

[Jorddyn]

I know some anti-drug education that teaches needle saftey, drug use hygenics, etc. Thats not the same as simply DONT DO IT!

You're right, it's not. So let's discuss the topic at hand rather than running off to drugs and alcohol and confusing the issue.

Comprehensive sex education has reduced teen pregnancy by a larger percentage than abstinence only education has.

If the goal is really to reduce teen pregnancy, what is the argument against comprehensive sex education? If the goal is to reduce teen pregnancy, where is the logic in abstinence only education?

[Clove]

Nothing is 100%. It's not a cure-all. But it has been shown to work better than "don't do it!". Imagine what would happen if every parent stuffed condoms in the purse/wallet/pockets of their teenagers. Then they'd be prepared for being drunk in the parking lot with a hottie. Note: I'm not encouraging or condoning being drunk in the parking lot with a hottie. I'm advocating being prepared for such a situation because you just never know where you're going to end up.Prepared is not the same as responsible. It's not about having access to birth-control, being told how to use birth-control or knowing how birth-control can protect you. It's chosing to use it responsibly.

I was taught sex-ed in school, fortified by what my parents taught me at home, which included birth control. I was also emphatically encouraged to abstain until I was (at least) a legal adult. Not that I did. Of course I used protection (and it protected me) which is why I'm in favor of sex education.

However, I don't personally feel that sex-education that includes birth-control education is much more beneficial than abstinence-only education UNLESS it's taught with the point of view that children should abstain from sex until they are adults. We know they won't; but we also know that they should and that's the stance we should present. I feel if we don't present sex-education from that point of view, the benefit of birth-control awareness (amongst immature and irresponsible teens) is offset by a climate that teen sex is acceptable (just as long as you're careful).

The girl next door to me my senior year of high school took the same classes I did and ended up pregnant from the boy down the street. Why? They didn't like condoms and used the rhythm method instead. Both of them were honor students. Anecdotal evidence, just like Palin's daughter.

[Daniel]

I don't think I've ever heard of a sex education program which didn't say that abstinance is the best way to avoid diseases and\or pregnancy.

[Clove]

You're right, it's not. So let's discuss the topic at hand rather than running off to drugs and alcohol and confusing the issue.

Comprehensive sex education has reduced teen pregnancy by a larger percentage than abstinence only education has.

If the goal is really to reduce teen pregnancy, what is the argument against comprehensive sex education? If the goal is to reduce teen pregnancy, where is the logic in abstinence only education?I'd say it was also to reduce the spread of disease (amongst teens and adults). I could further say that the goal was to reduce unwanted pregnancies, period (again amongst teens and adults). Learning about safe-sex practices when you're a teen can (and does) help you as an adult.

[Gan]

You're right, it's not. So let's discuss the topic at hand rather than running off to drugs and alcohol and confusing the issue.

You can accomplish this goal by not making stupid comparisons.

:yes:

[Daniel]

You can accomplish this goal by not making stupid comparisons.

:yes:

Yea Clove. WTF

[Jorddyn]

However, I don't personally feel that sex-education that includes birth-control education is much more beneficial than abstinence-only education UNLESS it's taught with the point of view that children should abstain from sex until they are adults.

No one is saying leave abstinence out of the discussion. I definitely think it should be included, as it truly is the only way to avoid pregnancy and STIs. I just don't think it should be the only thing taught, especially because that typically comes from a moral rather than health-related standpoint.

[Jorddyn]

You can accomplish this goal by not making stupid comparisons.

:yes:

The comparisons came from Clove (as Daniel said). My bad for addressing them.

[Clove]

I don't think I've ever heard of a sex education program which didn't say that abstinance is the best way to avoid diseases and\or pregnancy.


Yea Clove. WTFIs there some reason you're baiting me? Or are you deliberately missing the point? Doesn't PB give you enough attention?

[Clove]

The comparisons came from Clove (as Daniel said). My bad for addressing them.They weren't stupid comparisons. Drug and alcohol awareness programs are only effective if those that take them take the information seriously. The same can be said about sex education. Birth-control information only works if the recipients of that information use it.

That's true of all information. To say "if we provide the information, it will make it better" automatically is a fallacy. Period.

[Jorddyn]

I'd say it was also to reduce the spread of disease (amongst teens and adults). I could further say that the goal was to reduce unwanted pregnancies, period (again amongst teens and adults). Learning about safe-sex practices when you're a teen can (and does) help you as an adult.


Which of my questions are you answering here? The logic of abstinence only education?

Because all of the above are addressed by and better served by comprehensive than abstinence only education.

[Clove]

How many times have I said that I favor sex-education in this thread so far? I'm just pointing out that sex-education, ill administered isn't much better (if at all) than abstinence-only education.

[Jorddyn]

Birth-control information only works if the recipients of that information use it.

Birth control information doesn't work at all if you don't share it with those who need it, as is the case with abstinence only education.




That's true of all information. To say "if we provide the information, it will make it better" automatically is a fallacy. Period.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it has been shown, in the case of sex education, that states with comprehensive programs reduce pregnancy by a greater percentage than abstinence only program. I'm sorry if you felt my shorthand of

More education = less pregnancy. was misleading.

[Jorddyn]

How many times have I said that I favor sex-education in this thread so far? I'm just pointing out that sex-education, ill administered isn't much better (if at all) than abstinence-only education.

Which is why I'm rather confused by your posting.

Yes, you're right, if we hire Joe-the-bum to administer sex ed to our teenagers and he spends the time eating apples and finger painting, they're not going to learn anything. But if we take a look at the highly succesful programs, they work. Not in every instance, not for every kid, but they do statistically and significantly reduce pregnancies. And in that respect, they are much better than abstinence only.

[Clove]

Which is why I'm rather confused by your posting.

Yes, you're right, if we hire Joe-the-bum to administer sex ed to our teenagers and he spends the time eating apples and finger painting, they're not going to learn anything. But if we take a look at the highly succesful programs, they work. Not in every instance, not for every kid, but they do statistically and significantly reduce pregnancies. And in that respect, they are much better than abstinence only.I don't know why you're confused. I stated my position, clearly. I think sex-ed programs are the best way to discourage the spread of STD's and unwanted pregnancy; as long as they are well administered from a perspective that advocates abstinence.

I am bothered by perceptions that because abstinence-only programs are less-effective, they are useless. Or attitudes like "they're going to have sex no matter what you tell them, so why bother telling them not to" etc. Not the best/=Worst.

I also don't accept assertions that "providing information solves a problem automatically'; which I felt you were stating with a simplified formula like "more education=less pregnancy"

Is that clear enough?

[crb]

Yup, its a distraction, and a damn bad one - given the platform the party in question has.

I agree 150%, children should be left out of it. In a perfect world, they would be. This world being as imperfect as it is, it's not going to happen. And for myself, it's a non-issue. I think it's a tragedy, especially since the poor kid is going to marry the 17 year old father. Yea, that'll end well.

My questions:

How will the collective issues surrounding Palin - the cop thing, the special projects funding, etc., possibly be spun to put her in a positive light?

More importantly, how does her selection reflect on McCain's judgement?

My answers, thus far:

There's no way to spin this that she looks good, and in his first major decision as the Republican nominee for President of the United States - selecting a running mate, he totally and completely blew it.

And not because of the cop thing, or the special projects, or the pregnant daughter or any of it.

They lost me completely when the woman said, "I can't answer that until someone answers the question, what exactly does the Vice President do all day?" I guess being second in command to a geriatric cancer survivor isn't enough to fill her day?

Part of me thinks wiley ol'coyote McCain picked her intentionally, so he could dump her, and be able to say "Hey! I tried to have a woman running mate, I'm hip, I'm with it! It didn't work, sorry!"

Cthulhu for President.
Learn to have a sense of humor. Can't a candidate make a joke?

There are, infact, a whole series of classic jokes about VPs not doing anything, decades old. I find it hard to believe you've never heard one before.

[Jorddyn]

Is that clear enough?

It makes more sense. I honestly think we believe almost the same thing, we're just misunderstanding each other.

I in no way meant to say that abstinence shouldn't be included as part of the sex ed curriculum. My problem is with abstinence only education.

I think that teenagers should be encouraged to wait until they're ready to deal with all of the consequences of such a relationship. I also think we should provide them with the information they need when they decide not to listen.


I also don't accept assertions that "providing information solves a problem automatically'; which I felt you were stating with a simplified formula like "more education=less pregnancy"

If I felt it solved the problem, the equation would be more education = no (unwanted) pregnancy.

[CrystalTears]

You also have to consider that there are certain communities and/or schools where they don't want any sex education taught at all. If it came to the point that something had to be introduced, abstinence only classes are the best effort to get it in the door before you expand into a full sex education curriculum.

[BigWorm]

I don't know why you're confused. I stated my position, clearly. I think sex-ed programs are the best way to discourage the spread of STD's and unwanted pregnancy; as long as they are well administered from a perspective that advocates abstinence.

I am bothered by perceptions that because abstinence-only programs are less-effective, they are useless. Or attitudes like "they're going to have sex no matter what you tell them, so why bother telling them not to" etc. Not the best/=Worst.

I also don't accept assertions that "providing information solves a problem automatically'; which I felt you were stating with a simplified formula like "more education=less pregnancy"

Is that clear enough?

I don't think anyone is saying that abstinence-only programs are worthless, but when the alternative of comprehensive sexual education is proven to work significantly better, why would anyone who really wanted to decrease teen pregnancy and STIs choose not to provide comprehensive sex ed?

[TheWitch]

Learn to have a sense of humor. Can't a candidate make a joke?

There are, infact, a whole series of classic jokes about VPs not doing anything, decades old. I find it hard to believe you've never heard one before.


The point is not "is this a play on the running joke about VP's".

Frankly, I don't think the first female VP candidate to run on the GOP ticket can afford to be glib. Does she need to be be all strident and loud, aka Hillary Jr? No. Does she want to be taken seriously as not just part of a party - but Presidential running mate in - of which large segments would be much happier if women would just stay the hell home and reproduce? Then she needs to Lrn2BSrs.

She sounded stupid. She has sounded stupid in pretty much every interview I've heard on the radio, or caught on video in other channels.

I think she was a bad choice, and I wouldn't be surprised if it contributes to costing Republicans the presidency. And not because her daughter got knocked up. Because none of them seem to be taking this seriously, and seem to think the election is a foregone conclusion....

[Clove]

I guess my problem is statements like (paraphrased) "Palin's daughter getting pregnant provides anecdotal evidence that abstinence programs don't work" (which isn't the same as saying "don't work as well as well-run sex-ed programs"), when I'm confident you would have rolled your eyes (as you should have) had some Bible-thumping conservative insinuated the same about sex-ed programs if Palin had supported those and her daughter ended up a teen-pregnancy.

Her daughter's pregnancy has nothing to do with policy effectiveness, or Palin's competency as an executive. /end.

[Jorddyn]

Palin's daughter getting pregnant provides anecdotal evidence that abstinence programs don't work" (which isn't the same as saying "don't work as well as well-run sex-ed programs"),

I said it provides anecdotal evidence that they don't work well. I didn't say they don't work.


when you I'm confident you would have rolled your eyes had some Bible-thumping conservative had insinuated the same about sex-ed programs if Palin had supported those and her daughter ended up a teen-pregnancy.
I would have. Because sex ed programs have been shown to work, and work better than abstinence only programs.


Her daughter's pregnancy has nothing to do with policy effectiveness, or Palin's competency as an executive. /end.

I agree that her daughter's specific pregnancy does not itself equate failed policy or incompetence. However, she is going to be tasked with championing a policy, and which policy she chooses will largely dictate how effective it is in preventing other people's teenage daughters from becoming pregnant. That's worth a look.

[Clove]

I said it provides anecdotal evidence that they don't work well. I didn't say they don't workActually you admitted that it was anecdotal evidence that they don't work well.


I don't really care that her daughter is having a child. I care that she supports a ridiculous policy based on her morality, even though there's proof within her own family that it doesn't work well.


You're right. I should have used the phrase "anecdotal evidence".And I think that set me off, so to speak. On the one hand you say you don't care about her daughter's pregnancy, but you're quick to follow-up that her daughter's pregnancy is proof that her policy is ridiculous and ineffective, which you later (to your credit) admit is simply anecdotal.

There's a slight venomous tone in the first quote, that you've since backed away from.

The bottom line? Regardless of Palin's sex education stance, her daughter's pregnancy has the same meaning - it's a minor, somewhat ironic, family tragedy that doesn't have any relevance to her public service. In addition, her daughter's pregnancy doesn't provide support for either policy.

I felt similarly about Clinton's blow-job and about Wright's asshole behavior.

That Palin is going have to reconcile her policy decisions to the public in light of her daughter's situation, speaks more to the American public's ability to make conclusions based on reasonable and relevant information, than anything else.

[Apathy]

I don't think I've ever heard of a sex education program which didn't say that abstinance is the best way to avoid diseases and\or pregnancy.

you're right, we should start teaching the children anal. that'll stop the pregnancies.

[Clove]

you're right, we should start teaching the children anal. that'll stop the pregnancies.I still remember one of my classmates during health class saying: "So? There's plenty of other things you can do to have fun without getting her pregnant. You can dick 'er in the mouth, you can dick 'er in the ass. You can even dick 'er in the ear if it'll fit" (I didn't realize then that he must have known Backlash). Yeah he got "excused" from that health class.

[crb]

... I remember a girl asking if she could get pregnant if a guy "exploded" in her mouth. Hilarity ensued.

[Clove]

Yeah the smart girl's always asked dumb questions like that in my health class too... they never had to look for a date.