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crb
08-29-2008, 12:05 AM
Quotes from his speech, and my responses... I thought he was better than this...



We meet at one of those defining moments - a moment when our nation is at war, our economy is in turmoil, and the American promise has been threatened once more.

Politics of fear, note today good GDP numbers for q2 were released.



Tonight, more Americans are out of work and more are working harder for less. More of you have lost your homes and even more are watching your home values plummet. More of you have cars you can't afford to drive, credit card bills you can't afford to pay, and tuition that's beyond your reach.

More politics of fear, and actually the average unemployment under bush has been low. But don't like facts dissuade you Barack. Oh... and tuition, who doesn't qualify for financial aid in today's age of ginormous school endowments? Some schools are now giving free tuition to everyone their endowments are so big.



These challenges are not all of government's making. But the failure to respond is a direct result of a broken politics in Washington and the failed policies of George W. Bush.

So the fact that congress has hamstrung any necessary legislation the last 2 years OTHER than the first stimulus has nothing to do with it?



This country is more generous than one where a man in Indiana has to pack up the equipment he's worked on for twenty years and watch it shipped off to China, and then chokes up as he explains how he felt like a failure when he went home to tell his family the news.

What is that? A sideways jab at free trade? Free trade and exports have HELPED out economy Barack, when will you come around to what every economist says?



We are more compassionate than a government that lets veterans sleep on our streets and families slide into poverty; that sits on its hands while a major American city drowns before our eyes.

The first responder, the mayor of new orleans, a democrat, dropped the ball (buses) the second responder, the governor of louisiana, a democrat, dropped the ball (national guard is under her power), the federal government is the third responder. It goes local, regional, national, not the other way around.



But the record's clear: John McCain has voted with George Bush ninety percent of the time.

No, he didn't. Factcheck.org it. Barack Obama, over the course of his first (and only) term has voted with his party an average of 97% of the time. John McCain, over the last 8 years, has voted with his party around 70% of the time. The 90% is cherry picked in true al-gore fashion over one shorter time period and is statistical manipulation at it's best. Obama, you are either dumb or a bald faced liar. Who is more partisan mr 97% or mr 70%?

And looking at pure statistics doesn't matter anyways, most votes are meaningless, you need to look at the big issues.



Senator McCain has been anything but independent. He said that our economy has made "great progress" under this President

It has, see stock market growth, gdp growth, job creation, low unemployment, and yes, real wage growth for the middle class. Even with this downturn we're WAY up since 2000.



And when one of his chief advisors - the man who wrote his economic plan - was talking about the anxiety Americans are feeling, he said that we were just suffering from a "mental recession," and that we've become, and I quote, "a nation of whiners."

NOT PC, but true. People, mostly in the media probably trying to fuel anti republican angst, are overblowing things. By historical measure, we're not in a major downturn. Recession unemployment is going to be 10%+, we're no where near that.



Now, I don't believe that Senator McCain doesn't care what's going on in the lives of Americans. I just think he doesn't know. Why else would he define middle-class as someone making under five million dollars a year?

OMG John McCain can see the future? He made a joke and said it would be distorted and a couple weeks later... boom, it happens!



How else could he propose hundreds of billions in tax breaks for big corporations and oil companies but not one penny of tax relief to more than one hundred million Americans?

This is not true, unless you mean he proposes reducing the corporate tax rate so it is no longer the second highest in the developed world, which encourages businesses to move overseas... something most Democrats agree on.

Lets not forget.. Obama voted for the most recent oil company tax breaks, McCain voted against them. Actions speak louder than words Barack.



How else could he offer a health care plan that would actually tax people's benefits

THIS quote pisses me off the most. The problem, and Obama knows this is a problem else he is a retard because he has used these examples in his speeches, is that employers provide healthcare, which means your healthcare is tied to your job, which means if you lose your job or change jobs you lose your coverage, and then it may be hard to get it again if you have developed a condition.

The reason this even exists is back when wages were frozen (thank you democrats... not) companies had to figure new ways to attract workers and so they started offering benefits.

The problem is, benefits aren't treated like income and are not taxed, so in effect, people who have to buy health insurance by themselves, pay way more than they need to.

If you taxed benefits there would no longer be a reason for businesses to offer them, no advantage to workers getting them, just pay them more instead, people would transition to buying their own health insurance, they their employer could never take away, that they can take with them between jobs.

And it isn't as if McCain wants to just leave it at that, he is proposing a massive federal tax credit to cover the entire cost for people.

So in the end, all the change is, is to accounting for taxes, it will not change what people end up paying because of the offsetting tax credit, but what it does, is perfectly fix the portability problem with current employer provided health insurance.

And Obama, out of partisan bitterness, makes it sound like a bad idea when he KNOWS it isn't. Fucker.

I'm sure though that the unions are against it, because it takes away one of their barganing chips for justifying their dues from their worker members (we get you better insurance, pay us dues!). so maybe thats why, we all know the labor lobby is alive and well in Obama's camp.



or an education plan that would do nothing to help families pay for college

I've never met someone who couldn't afford to go to college... unless they were responsible for people other than themselves and had to work full time. And I'm sorry democrats but you cannot legislate more hours in the day if people just have time. Seriously, who cannot afford to go to a community college? Tuition is cheap, tuition assistance is abundant. I grew up in the poorest county in Michigan's lower peninsula and I did not know one person who couldn't afford to go to the local community college. It took all types.

Sure... not everyone can afford to go to Columbia or Harvard... but is that really a problem?



or a plan that would privatize Social Security and gamble your retirement?


Fuck you Obama, you want to tax me more for social security and by the time I retire I probably won't have anything. I want a portion of my SS payments to go to a private account with my name on them because I do not trust you government fuckers to not spend my money before I retire.



Out of work? Tough luck. No health care? The market will fix it. Born into poverty? Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps - even if you don't have boots. You're on your own.


Translation:

Out of Work? The government will pay you.
No healthcare? The government will give it to you.
Born into poverty? Here, have some wealth distribution and welfare, we're from the government we're here to help.

Another dumb healthcare remark by Obama to... how can he be so stupid as to not realize that lack of price competition (ie, lack of a free market) in almost all parts of the healthcare industry is a primary reason for the high prices. No one shops on price, no one competes on price, few consumers even control their own healthcare shopping or spending. It isn't a free market capitalist system that has gotten us this fucked up healthcare, it is a central planned big government over regulated system and moving it more in that direction will not fix it.



You see, we Democrats have a very different measure of what constitutes progress in this country.

We measure progress by how many people can find a job that pays the mortgage;


More jobs than ever under bush, more homeowners than ever. Check and check.



Ours is a promise that says government cannot solve all our problems, but what it should do is that which we cannot do for ourselves - protect us from harm and provide every child a decent education; keep our water clean and our toys safe; invest in new schools and new roads and new science and technology.


Is it possible to flipflop within a speech?



That's the promise of America - the idea that we are responsible for ourselves, but that we also rise or fall as one nation; the fundamental belief that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper.

contradict yourself much? Watch the Amazing Obama... pandering to both sides at once!



I will eliminate capital gains taxes for the small businesses and the start-ups that will create the high-wage, high-tech jobs of tomorrow.

Thank god general-election-obama is speaking and not primary-campaign-obama who wanted to double cap gains.



I will cut taxes - cut taxes - for 95% of all working families. Because in an economy like this, the last thing we should do is raise taxes on the middle-class.

Please define "Working family"I work, but I fear, I am not a working family, maybe I don't work hard enough.. You've also said you want to give a $1000 bribe, erm I mean cut, to all working families, funding with a windfall profit tax on oil companies with their massive ~8% profit margin. (yes... Exxon makes $1400 a second in profit... but did you know they pay $4000 a second in taxes?). I figured it out. If there are a hundred million "working families" in the US, you would need 100 billion dollars to give them all a $1000 bribe. Mr. Obama, I don't know if you know how much money the oil company's make, but you're not going to fund that cut with a tax on their profits. You could tax them at 100% and fall ridiculously short. Keep trying.

(cue warriorbird: saving money by not being in iraq).



Washington's been talking about our oil addiction for the last thirty years, and John McCain has been there for twenty-six of them. In that time, he's said no to higher fuel-efficiency standards for cars, no to investments in renewable energy, no to renewable fuels. And today, we import triple the amount of oil as the day that Senator McCain took office.

Ahd Joe Biden has been there longer.

And again... Obama, you've forgotten about the Lieberman McCain Climate Stewardship Act... it wasn't that long ago, maybe you were too busy not being involved in federal politics at the time to remember, you are so very new to the scene, but McCain has long been a champion of the environment. Hence, Bill Clinton saying last week he has done more than any republican for the environment.



As President, I will tap our natural gas reserves, invest in clean coal technology, and find ways to safely harness nuclear power. I'll help our auto companies re-tool, so that the fuel-efficient cars of the future are built right here in America. I'll make it easier for the American people to afford these new cars. And I'll invest 150 billion dollars over the next decade in affordable, renewable sources of energy - wind power and solar power and the next generation of biofuels; an investment that will lead to new industries and five million new jobs that pay well and can't ever be outsourced.

Now you're plagiarizing the act, sure you didn't read it? Not bad... taking credit for legislation McCain wrote.



Now is the time to finally keep the promise of affordable, accessible health care for every single American. If you have health care, my plan will lower your premiums.

I have to ask... how can he be so cocksure? Government force? "You will charge less or else!"?

He hasn't proposed at any time any plan to fix the problem of skyrocketing costs, he has only proposed ideas on changing who pays for those costs.

He puts a bandaid on a broken arm instead of fixing the root cause, the cost of healthcare, not who pays for it.



Now is the time to change our bankruptcy laws, so that your pensions are protected ahead of CEO bonuses;

The federal government already guarantees pensions. I think it is bullshit, why should a bunch of union guys who parasited their company into death get to have tax payers fit the bill for their oversold pension? People should all just have 401ks that aren't tied to the health of the company they work for.



and the time to protect Social Security for future generations.

Like how about letting me keep a little of my payments in an account with my name on it?



But I will also go through the federal budget, line by line, eliminating programs that no longer work and making the ones we do need work better and cost less - because we cannot meet twenty-first century challenges with a twentieth century bureaucracy.

AWESOME! Really, I hope he isn't just pandering... I don't believe him... but AWESOME if it is true.



But we must also admit that programs alone can't replace parents; that government can't turn off the television and make a child do her homework; that fathers must take more responsibility for providing the love and guidance their children need.


I'll give Obama credit that he has all along made noises like this against the typical nanny state pelosi's of the world.



If John McCain wants to have a debate about who has the temperament, and judgment, to serve as the next Commander-in-Chief, that's a debate I'm ready to have.

Liar, John McCain has offered to have a debate dozens of times now, Obama has always turned him down.



And today, as my call for a time frame to remove our troops from Iraq has been echoed by the Iraqi government and even the Bush Administration, even after we learned that Iraq has a $79 billion surplus while we're wallowing in deficits, John McCain stands alone in his stubborn refusal to end a misguided war.

This is not true, McCain has always said he wants to end it, just that he doesn't want to throw in a towel. Obama fails to note that it was the surge that allowed the progress that has allowed the troops to be removed soon. The surge he was against.



We are the party of Kennedy. So don't tell me that Democrats won't defend this country.

Thats right Kennedy brought is Vietnam and the bay of pigs. How did I forget?



So I've got news for you, John McCain. We all put our country first.

America, our work will not be easy. The challenges we face require tough choices, and Democrats as well as Republicans will need to cast off the worn-out ideas and politics of the past. For part of what has been lost these past eight years can't just be measured by lost wages or bigger trade deficits. What has also been lost is our sense of common purpose - our sense of higher purpose. And that's what we have to restore.

We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country. The reality of gun ownership may be different for hunters in rural Ohio than for those plagued by gang-violence in Cleveland, but don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals. I know there are differences on same-sex marriage, but surely we can agree that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters deserve to visit the person they love in the hospital and to live lives free of discrimination. Passions fly on immigration, but I don't know anyone who benefits when a mother is separated from her infant child or an employer undercuts American wages by hiring illegal workers. This too is part of America's promise - the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort.


This is all well and nice,e xcept he implies that the democrats are all moderate and wanting to compromise and the republicans aren't.

There are extremists and moderates on both sides. John McCain has a many years long record of bipartisanship and working across the aisle. Barack Obama has the most liberal voting record in the senate.

But then again... maybe he slept in a holiday in express last night?

Parkbandit
08-29-2008, 12:05 AM
Yes?

(Where did your post go?)

Stanley Burrell
08-29-2008, 12:13 AM
<<Quotes from his speech, and my responses... I thought he was better than this...


Quote:
We meet at one of those defining moments - a moment when our nation is at war, our economy is in turmoil, and the American promise has been threatened once more.


Politics of fear, note today good GDP numbers for q2 were released.


Quote:
Tonight, more Americans are out of work and more are working harder for less. More of you have lost your homes and even more are watching your home values plummet. More of you have cars you can't afford to drive, credit card bills you can't afford to pay, and tuition that's beyond your reach.


More politics of fear, and actually the average unemployment under bush has been low. But don't like facts dissuade you Barack. Oh... and tuition, who doesn't qualify for financial aid in today's age of ginormous school endowments? Some schools are now giving free tuition to everyone their endowments are so big.


Quote:
These challenges are not all of government's making. But the failure to respond is a direct result of a broken politics in Washington and the failed policies of George W. Bush.


So the fact that congress has hamstrung any necessary legislation the last 2 years OTHER than the first stimulus has nothing to do with it?


Quote:
This country is more generous than one where a man in Indiana has to pack up the equipment he's worked on for twenty years and watch it shipped off to China, and then chokes up as he explains how he felt like a failure when he went home to tell his family the news.


What is that? A sideways jab at free trade? Free trade and exports have HELPED out economy Barack, when will you come around to what every economist says?


Quote:
We are more compassionate than a government that lets veterans sleep on our streets and families slide into poverty; that sits on its hands while a major American city drowns before our eyes.


The first responder, the mayor of new orleans, a democrat, dropped the ball (buses) the second responder, the governor of louisiana, a democrat, dropped the ball (national guard is under her power), the federal government is the third responder. It goes local, regional, national, not the other way around.


Quote:
But the record's clear: John McCain has voted with George Bush ninety percent of the time.


No, he didn't. Factcheck.org it. Barack Obama, over the course of his first (and only) term has voted with his party an average of 97% of the time. John McCain, over the last 8 years, has voted with his party around 70% of the time. The 90% is cherry picked in true al-gore fashion over one shorter time period and is statistical manipulation at it's best. Obama, you are either dumb or a bald faced liar. Who is more partisan mr 97% or mr 70%?

And looking at pure statistics doesn't matter anyways, most votes are meaningless, you need to look at the big issues.


Quote:
Senator McCain has been anything but independent. He said that our economy has made "great progress" under this President


It has, see stock market growth, gdp growth, job creation, low unemployment, and yes, real wage growth for the middle class. Even with this downturn we're WAY up since 2000.


Quote:
And when one of his chief advisors - the man who wrote his economic plan - was talking about the anxiety Americans are feeling, he said that we were just suffering from a "mental recession," and that we've become, and I quote, "a nation of whiners."


NOT PC, but true. People, mostly in the media probably trying to fuel anti republican angst, are overblowing things. By historical measure, we're not in a major downturn. Recession unemployment is going to be 10%+, we're no where near that.


Quote:
Now, I don't believe that Senator McCain doesn't care what's going on in the lives of Americans. I just think he doesn't know. Why else would he define middle-class as someone making under five million dollars a year?


OMG John McCain can see the future? He made a joke and said it would be distorted and a couple weeks later... boom, it happens!


Quote:
How else could he propose hundreds of billions in tax breaks for big corporations and oil companies but not one penny of tax relief to more than one hundred million Americans?


This is not true, unless you mean he proposes reducing the corporate tax rate so it is no longer the second highest in the developed world, which encourages businesses to move overseas... something most Democrats agree on.

Lets not forget.. Obama voted for the most recent oil company tax breaks, McCain voted against them. Actions speak louder than words Barack.


Quote:
How else could he offer a health care plan that would actually tax people's benefits


THIS quote pisses me off the most. The problem, and Obama knows this is a problem else he is a retard because he has used these examples in his speeches, is that employers provide healthcare, which means your healthcare is tied to your job, which means if you lose your job or change jobs you lose your coverage, and then it may be hard to get it again if you have developed a condition.

The reason this even exists is back when wages were frozen (thank you democrats... not) companies had to figure new ways to attract workers and so they started offering benefits.

The problem is, benefits aren't treated like income and are not taxed, so in effect, people who have to buy health insurance by themselves, pay way more than they need to.

If you taxed benefits there would no longer be a reason for businesses to offer them, no advantage to workers getting them, just pay them more instead, people would transition to buying their own health insurance, they their employer could never take away, that they can take with them between jobs.

And it isn't as if McCain wants to just leave it at that, he is proposing a massive federal tax credit to cover the entire cost for people.

So in the end, all the change is, is to accounting for taxes, it will not change what people end up paying because of the offsetting tax credit, but what it does, is perfectly fix the portability problem with current employer provided health insurance.

And Obama, out of partisan bitterness, makes it sound like a bad idea when he KNOWS it isn't. Fucker.

I'm sure though that the unions are against it, because it takes away one of their barganing chips for justifying their dues from their worker members (we get you better insurance, pay us dues!). so maybe thats why, we all know the labor lobby is alive and well in Obama's camp.


Quote:
or an education plan that would do nothing to help families pay for college


I've never met someone who couldn't afford to go to college... unless they were responsible for people other than themselves and had to work full time. And I'm sorry democrats but you cannot legislate more hours in the day if people just have time. Seriously, who cannot afford to go to a community college? Tuition is cheap, tuition assistance is abundant. I grew up in the poorest county in Michigan's lower peninsula and I did not know one person who couldn't afford to go to the local community college. It took all types.

Sure... not everyone can afford to go to Columbia or Harvard... but is that really a problem?


Quote:
or a plan that would privatize Social Security and gamble your retirement?



Fuck you Obama, you want to tax me more for social security and by the time I retire I probably won't have anything. I want a portion of my SS payments to go to a private account with my name on them because I do not trust you government fuckers to not spend my money before I retire.


Quote:
Out of work? Tough luck. No health care? The market will fix it. Born into poverty? Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps - even if you don't have boots. You're on your own.



Translation:

Out of Work? The government will pay you.
No healthcare? The government will give it to you.
Born into poverty? Here, have some wealth distribution and welfare, we're from the government we're here to help.

Another dumb healthcare remark by Obama to... how can he be so stupid as to not realize that lack of price competition (ie, lack of a free market) in almost all parts of the healthcare industry is a primary reason for the high prices. No one shops on price, no one competes on price, few consumers even control their own healthcare shopping or spending. It isn't a free market capitalist system that has gotten us this fucked up healthcare, it is a central planned big government over regulated system and moving it more in that direction will not fix it.


Quote:
You see, we Democrats have a very different measure of what constitutes progress in this country.

We measure progress by how many people can find a job that pays the mortgage;



More jobs than ever under bush, more homeowners than ever. Check and check.


Quote:
Ours is a promise that says government cannot solve all our problems, but what it should do is that which we cannot do for ourselves - protect us from harm and provide every child a decent education; keep our water clean and our toys safe; invest in new schools and new roads and new science and technology.



Is it possible to flipflop within a speech?


Quote:
That's the promise of America - the idea that we are responsible for ourselves, but that we also rise or fall as one nation; the fundamental belief that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper.


contradict yourself much? Watch the Amazing Obama... pandering to both sides at once!


Quote:
I will eliminate capital gains taxes for the small businesses and the start-ups that will create the high-wage, high-tech jobs of tomorrow.


Thank god general-election-obama is speaking and not primary-campaign-obama who wanted to double cap gains.


Quote:
I will cut taxes - cut taxes - for 95% of all working families. Because in an economy like this, the last thing we should do is raise taxes on the middle-class.


Please define "Working family"I work, but I fear, I am not a working family, maybe I don't work hard enough.. You've also said you want to give a $1000 bribe, erm I mean cut, to all working families, funding with a windfall profit tax on oil companies with their massive ~8% profit margin. (yes... Exxon makes $1400 a second in profit... but did you know they pay $4000 a second in taxes?). I figured it out. If there are a hundred million "working families" in the US, you would need 100 billion dollars to give them all a $1000 bribe. Mr. Obama, I don't know if you know how much money the oil company's make, but you're not going to fund that cut with a tax on their profits. You could tax them at 100% and fall ridiculously short. Keep trying.

(cue warriorbird: saving money by not being in iraq).


Quote:
Washington's been talking about our oil addiction for the last thirty years, and John McCain has been there for twenty-six of them. In that time, he's said no to higher fuel-efficiency standards for cars, no to investments in renewable energy, no to renewable fuels. And today, we import triple the amount of oil as the day that Senator McCain took office.


Ahd Joe Biden has been there longer.

And again... Obama, you've forgotten about the Lieberman McCain Climate Stewardship Act... it wasn't that long ago, maybe you were too busy not being involved in federal politics at the time to remember, you are so very new to the scene, but McCain has long been a champion of the environment. Hence, Bill Clinton saying last week he has done more than any republican for the environment.


Quote:
As President, I will tap our natural gas reserves, invest in clean coal technology, and find ways to safely harness nuclear power. I'll help our auto companies re-tool, so that the fuel-efficient cars of the future are built right here in America. I'll make it easier for the American people to afford these new cars. And I'll invest 150 billion dollars over the next decade in affordable, renewable sources of energy - wind power and solar power and the next generation of biofuels; an investment that will lead to new industries and five million new jobs that pay well and can't ever be outsourced.


Now you're plagiarizing the act, sure you didn't read it? Not bad... taking credit for legislation McCain wrote.


Quote:
Now is the time to finally keep the promise of affordable, accessible health care for every single American. If you have health care, my plan will lower your premiums.


I have to ask... how can he be so cocksure? Government force? "You will charge less or else!"?

He hasn't proposed at any time any plan to fix the problem of skyrocketing costs, he has only proposed ideas on changing who pays for those costs.

He puts a bandaid on a broken arm instead of fixing the root cause, the cost of healthcare, not who pays for it.


Quote:
Now is the time to change our bankruptcy laws, so that your pensions are protected ahead of CEO bonuses;


The federal government already guarantees pensions. I think it is bullshit, why should a bunch of union guys who parasited their company into death get to have tax payers fit the bill for their oversold pension? People should all just have 401ks that aren't tied to the health of the company they work for.


Quote:
and the time to protect Social Security for future generations.


Like how about letting me keep a little of my payments in an account with my name on it?


Quote:
But I will also go through the federal budget, line by line, eliminating programs that no longer work and making the ones we do need work better and cost less - because we cannot meet twenty-first century challenges with a twentieth century bureaucracy.


AWESOME! Really, I hope he isn't just pandering... I don't believe him... but AWESOME if it is true.


Quote:
But we must also admit that programs alone can't replace parents; that government can't turn off the television and make a child do her homework; that fathers must take more responsibility for providing the love and guidance their children need.



I'll give Obama credit that he has all along made noises like this against the typical nanny state pelosi's of the world.


Quote:
If John McCain wants to have a debate about who has the temperament, and judgment, to serve as the next Commander-in-Chief, that's a debate I'm ready to have.


Liar, John McCain has offered to have a debate dozens of times now, Obama has always turned him down.


Quote:
And today, as my call for a time frame to remove our troops from Iraq has been echoed by the Iraqi government and even the Bush Administration, even after we learned that Iraq has a $79 billion surplus while we're wallowing in deficits, John McCain stands alone in his stubborn refusal to end a misguided war.


This is not true, McCain has always said he wants to end it, just that he doesn't want to throw in a towel. Obama fails to note that it was the surge that allowed the progress that has allowed the troops to be removed soon. The surge he was against.


Quote:
We are the party of Kennedy. So don't tell me that Democrats won't defend this country.


Thats right Kennedy brought is Vietnam and the bay of pigs. How did I forget?


Quote:
So I've got news for you, John McCain. We all put our country first.

America, our work will not be easy. The challenges we face require tough choices, and Democrats as well as Republicans will need to cast off the worn-out ideas and politics of the past. For part of what has been lost these past eight years can't just be measured by lost wages or bigger trade deficits. What has also been lost is our sense of common purpose - our sense of higher purpose. And that's what we have to restore.

We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country. The reality of gun ownership may be different for hunters in rural Ohio than for those plagued by gang-violence in Cleveland, but don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals. I know there are differences on same-sex marriage, but surely we can agree that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters deserve to visit the person they love in the hospital and to live lives free of discrimination. Passions fly on immigration, but I don't know anyone who benefits when a mother is separated from her infant child or an employer undercuts American wages by hiring illegal workers. This too is part of America's promise - the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort.



This is all well and nice,e xcept he implies that the democrats are all moderate and wanting to compromise and the republicans aren't.

There are extremists and moderates on both sides. John McCain has a many years long record of bipartisanship and working across the aisle. Barack Obama has the most liberal voting record in the senate.

But then again... maybe he slept in a holiday in express last night?>>


...


rofl

TheRoseLady
08-29-2008, 12:14 AM
Yes?

(Where did your post go?)

Good grapes. That big post took me back to that one dude who was in the service and chipped his tooth on his gun. I can't remember his name. He used to post walls of text.

CRB:

Fear or reality? I consider fear to be more rooted in the unknown, the portent of things that may come. Those things that you cited as being the politics of fear are in reality, things that are happening now. At least of what I read in your first few lines.

Back
08-29-2008, 12:19 AM
WOT hurts my eyes!

Warriorbird
08-29-2008, 12:26 AM
Even if everything you said about Obama were correct (which it isn't) it wouldn't keep McCain from sucking.

Keller
08-29-2008, 12:36 AM
Obama wins the nomination and GDP numbers increase.

That is a change I believe in.

Sean of the Thread
08-29-2008, 12:54 AM
Good grapes. That big post took me back to that one dude who was in the service and chipped his tooth on his gun. I can't remember his name. He used to post walls of text.

.

He goes by SST or dave or something now. Who cares he's insignificant babble.

Sean of the Thread
08-29-2008, 12:56 AM
This is all moot now that Obama's wife has been running her pie hole. People that have personally vowed to vote for Obama this have literally done 180's recently as have I.

Unless something changes and fast... that man has no chance in hell of being elected anymore.

Warriorbird
08-29-2008, 01:27 AM
Uhh... not so much. Her speech actually pulled in some Hillary voters... leaving the race still (as I've said for months) too close to call.

Sean of the Thread
08-29-2008, 01:35 AM
Uhh... not so much. Her speech actually pulled in some Hillary voters... leaving the race still (as I've said for months) too close to call.

Not sure where you're getting you're information so I cannot comment. I've got a different perspective and group of voters here in Florida and after Chillary's and now Obama's delegate debacle and her stupid ass comments they're hurting.

Again Florida is a touchy situation over the delegates but Obama lost Chillary voters here just based on his wife running her cock smuggler.

*Also lost votes all across the board from anyone patriotic. Just saying.

Warriorbird
08-29-2008, 01:37 AM
I didn't think he'd ever have Florida. Y'all love yourselves some Rovian tactics.

Daniel
08-29-2008, 06:54 AM
I read about 3 lines before I laughed and wrote off this entire post as more CRB babble.

Politics of fear? Oh really Mr. "The economy is going to tank if Obama is elected".

sst
08-29-2008, 07:07 AM
Good grapes. That big post took me back to that one dude who was in the service and chipped his tooth on his gun. I can't remember his name. He used to post walls of text.

CRB:

Fear or reality? I consider fear to be more rooted in the unknown, the portent of things that may come. Those things that you cited as being the politics of fear are in reality, things that are happening now. At least of what I read in your first few lines.

that would be me your talking about, I believe, but i think you are mistaken, I was never a wall of text kind of guy.

Daniel
08-29-2008, 07:09 AM
For shits and gigges I randomly went to one quote and came up with this:



We are more compassionate than a government that lets veterans sleep on our streets and families slide into poverty; that sits on its hands while a major American city drowns before our eyes.

The first responder, the mayor of new orleans, a democrat, dropped the ball (buses) the second responder, the governor of louisiana, a democrat, dropped the ball (national guard is under her power), the federal government is the third responder. It goes local, regional, national, not the other way around.

I'm not even going to get into the finger pointing that is your Katrina response (as if FEMA didn't fuck up..lawls) and notice that you didn't say anything about the veterans issues.

How exactly do you explain the fact that George Bush is the only president *ever* to lower the budget of the VA and in fact that this was in the middle of two wars that he started?

crb
08-29-2008, 07:55 AM
Good grapes. That big post took me back to that one dude who was in the service and chipped his tooth on his gun. I can't remember his name. He used to post walls of text.

CRB:

Fear or reality? I consider fear to be more rooted in the unknown, the portent of things that may come. Those things that you cited as being the politics of fear are in reality, things that are happening now. At least of what I read in your first few lines.
As oppose to a republican talking about world threats being the politics of fear for things that AREN'T happening right now?

Please. Obama is the kettle calling the pot black.

crb
08-29-2008, 08:00 AM
For shits and gigges I randomly went to one quote and came up with this:



I'm not even going to get into the finger pointing that is your Katrina response (as if FEMA didn't fuck up..lawls) and notice that you didn't say anything about the veterans issues.

How exactly do you explain the fact that George Bush is the only president *ever* to lower the budget of the VA and in fact that this was in the middle of two wars that he started?
I didn't address the veterans complaint because it has been previously distorted by liberals. See John Edward's talking about 200k homeless veterans (which is a blatant lie) I also did not address it because... as much as you might like to believe otherwise. Bush is not running for office, you're not running against him. You're running against John McCain who has always been a staunch supporter of veterans, and has even authored legislation on the topic, by himself and with John Kerry a few years ago.

Discussing issues on which the candidates agree is rather moot.

oh, and fema did fuck up, but the fact is they were the #3 batter and the inning wouldn't have been three and out if the first two batters hadn't struck out as well. The people of new orleans also struck out for building a fucking city below sea level on the coast. Remember... Bush asked then to evacuate the day before it hit, and they waited. Blaming it all on the federal government is just partisan bullshit.

Warriorbird
08-29-2008, 08:11 AM
... really great hearing that right now.

crb
08-29-2008, 08:14 AM
looks like I'm not the only one who thought he was hypocritical...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12964.html

Warriorbird
08-29-2008, 08:18 AM
Definitely found a source reknowned for accuracy there. A Hillary supporter and a former Delay staffer too.

Obama may be running against McCain... but he's running against a continuation of the Bush legacy. I'm glad he finally stated that.

Parkbandit
08-29-2008, 08:31 AM
Good grapes. That big post took me back to that one dude who was in the service and chipped his tooth on his gun. I can't remember his name. He used to post walls of text.

CRB:

Fear or reality? I consider fear to be more rooted in the unknown, the portent of things that may come. Those things that you cited as being the politics of fear are in reality, things that are happening now. At least of what I read in your first few lines.


You are referring to Chip Tooth Dave.

Kefka
08-29-2008, 08:32 AM
looks like I'm not the only one who thought he was hypocritical...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12964.html

HOLY CRAP!! You mean the Politico had something bad to say about Obama?!?

Warriorbird
08-29-2008, 08:35 AM
I know, right?

Khariz
08-29-2008, 08:38 AM
I'm glad you did that responsorial of the speech, CRB. I would like to, but I don't have the time, nor do I feel like wasting the effort at this point.

I listened to ever second of the speech, and here's how my brain translated it:

Rhetoric

Good Oratory Skills

Dash of socialist ideals

Rhetoric

Inaccurate portrayals of economics and history

Rhetoric

Excoriate the republicans for not being socialists

Espouse socialist ideals

Rhetoric

Dump on John McCain (not that I have a problem with this)

Rhetoric

A little more socialism

Good oratory closing

Daniel
08-29-2008, 08:38 AM
I didn't address the veterans complaint because it has been previously distorted by liberals. See John Edward's talking about 200k homeless veterans (which is a blatant lie) I also did not address it because... as much as you might like to believe otherwise. Bush is not running for office, you're not running against him. You're running against John McCain who has always been a staunch supporter of veterans, and has even authored legislation on the topic, by himself and with John Kerry a few years ago.


You think 200k homeless is a blantant lie? Really? You do know that 1 in 5 homeless people are veterans right? You do realize that the effects of a war don't even begin to be unfelt until 5-10 years after the conflict right? And yet you somehow think veterans complaints are being *distorted* when someone says that the budget of the VA was decreased under only *one* President, Bush?

Okay.

You can say McCain was not a part of that, but he was in congress, or do you forget? I'd be inclined to believe that he wasn't somehow partly responsible if he wasn't against the expansion of the GI Bill for completely retarded reasons.




oh, and fema did fuck up, but the fact is they were the #3 batter and the inning wouldn't have been three and out if the first two batters hadn't struck out as well. The people of new orleans also struck out for building a fucking city below sea level on the coast.

Well, considering I don't vote in NOLA or Louisiana, you'll have to excuse me if I don't neccessarily care about who was in charge there.


Remember... Bush asked then to evacuate the day before it hit, and they waited. Blaming it all on the federal government is just partisan bullshit

So did they or did they not fuck up? Stop contradicting yourself.

Warriorbird
08-29-2008, 08:40 AM
You think he's going to turn the country Marxist, Khariz. I'm totally expecting deep analysis from you.

Daniel
08-29-2008, 08:43 AM
You think he's going to turn the country Marxist, Khariz. I'm totally expecting deep analysis from you.

Correction: He's going to try to.

Warriorbird
08-29-2008, 08:46 AM
Right, right... I forgot. McCain's with the

http://www.lifelibertyetc.com/images/products/Wolverines_Logo_m.jpg

Parkbandit
08-29-2008, 08:53 AM
Obama should have played up the MLK speech and dwelled on that more than he did.

Personally, I think he missed a golden opportunity with this speech. He had a chance to show he was a different kind of candidate. His handlers never gave him the chance to do what he does best.. inspire people.

Kefka
08-29-2008, 08:57 AM
Great wall of text & opinions

Got any links to back up your claims? Yes, all of them. GDP numbers won't give people back their homes or jobs. Last I checked poverty has risen. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Conservatives hold a patent on the politics of fear.

Parkbandit
08-29-2008, 09:11 AM
Got any links to back up your claims? Yes, all of them. GDP numbers won't give people back their homes or jobs. Last I checked poverty has risen. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Conservatives hold a patent on the politics of fear.

I saw what you just did there.. used politics of fear "GDP numbers won't give people back their homes or jobs" and then blamed Conservatives for using those tactics.

Have you looked at the unemployment numbers before you claimed that all these poor people have no jobs because of Bush?

Daniel
08-29-2008, 09:25 AM
I saw what you just did there.. used politics of fear "GDP numbers won't give people back their homes or jobs" and then blamed Conservatives for using those tactics.

Have you looked at the unemployment numbers before you claimed that all these poor people have no jobs because of Bush?

You mean these numbers?


Both the number of unemployed persons (8.8 million) and the unemployment rate
(5.7 percent) rose in July. Over the past 12 months, the number of unemployed
persons has increased by 1.6 million, and the unemployment rate has risen by 1.0
percentage point. (See table A-1.)


http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Gan
08-29-2008, 09:30 AM
Obama wins the nomination and GDP numbers increase.

That is a change I believe in.

Which came first? The Chicken or the Egg?

Gan
08-29-2008, 09:33 AM
HOLY CRAP!! You mean the Politico had something bad to say about Obama?!?

Yes, the same politico who nailed McCain on how many houses he owns.

The inference that the Politico is biased/partisan is pretty stupid.

Gan
08-29-2008, 09:36 AM
You do realize that the effects of a war don't even begin to be unfelt until 5-10 years after the conflict right?
So we can expect you to get worse over time than you already are?

:lol:

Kembal
08-29-2008, 09:38 AM
Obama should have played up the MLK speech and dwelled on that more than he did.

Personally, I think he missed a golden opportunity with this speech. He had a chance to show he was a different kind of candidate. His handlers never gave him the chance to do what he does best.. inspire people.

...

Seriously, I know I asked this before, but do you watch a different convention than the rest of us?


The times are too serious, the stakes are too high for this same partisan playbook. So let us agree that patriotism has no party. I love this country, and so do you, and so does John McCain. The men and women who serve in our battlefields may be Democrats and Republicans and Independents, but they have fought together and bled together and some died together under the same proud flag. They have not served a Red America or a Blue America - they have served the United States of America.

or:


And I've seen it in this campaign. In the young people who voted for the first time, and in those who got involved again after a very long time. In the Republicans who never thought they'd pick up a Democratic ballot, but did. I've seen it in the workers who would rather cut their hours back a day than see their friends lose their jobs, in the soldiers who re-enlist after losing a limb, in the good neighbors who take a stranger in when a hurricane strikes and the floodwaters rise.

This country of ours has more wealth than any nation, but that's not what makes us rich. We have the most powerful military on Earth, but that's not what makes us strong. Our universities and our culture are the envy of the world, but that's not what keeps the world coming to our shores.

Instead, it is that American spirit - that American promise - that pushes us forward even when the path is uncertain; that binds us together in spite of our differences; that makes us fix our eye not on what is seen, but what is unseen, that better place around the bend.

And I'm not even copy/pasting the reference to MLK, Jr.

This speech was on the level of Reagan and Kennedy in terms of rhetoric. If you didn't find inspirational, that's fine, but when Pat Buchanan found it to be an amazing speech, I think to say the speech didn't inspire people is nonsense.

Khariz
08-29-2008, 09:46 AM
Oh, just to be clear. I DID think it was an amazing speech. It was most certainly very inspirational.

Kefka
08-29-2008, 09:53 AM
Yes, the same politico who nailed McCain on how many houses he owns.

The inference that the Politico is biased/partisan is pretty stupid.

The same Politico that's been pro-Hillary and has had more anti-Obama than anti-McCain articles since the primaries ended. Do you think Politico was the only news source that was gonna guess how many houses McCain had? McCain nailed himself with that one. Politico had nothing to do with it.

Gan
08-29-2008, 09:56 AM
The same Politico that's been pro-Hillary and has had more anti-Obama than anti-McCain articles since the primaries ended. Do you think Politico was the only news source that was gonna guess how many houses McCain had? McCain nailed himself with that one. Politico had nothing to do with it.

Funny how the Politico was the ONLY one to ask the question.

I give props to the Politco for being pretty balanced.

If you have a source that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.

Parkbandit
08-29-2008, 10:39 AM
...

Seriously, I know I asked this before, but do you watch a different convention than the rest of us?



or:



And I'm not even copy/pasting the reference to MLK, Jr.

This speech was on the level of Reagan and Kennedy in terms of rhetoric. If you didn't find inspirational, that's fine, but when Pat Buchanan found it to be an amazing speech, I think to say the speech didn't inspire people is nonsense.


I didn't realize I needed to agree with Pat Buchanan in order to have an opinion.. since I rarely agree with Pat Buchanan.

YOU think it was the best speech ever given.. which, let's be honest.. he could have read the ingredient list from a box of "Ho-Ho's" and you will still claim this. I personally believe he missed a great opportunity to being independents and even some disillusioned Republicans into his voting block.. and he simply didn't deliver.

But hey.. he might have that traditional 5-10 point post-convention bump next week and prove me wrong.

Parkbandit
08-29-2008, 10:40 AM
Funny how the Politico was the ONLY one to ask the question.

I give props to the Politco for being pretty balanced.

If you have a source that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.


Dear Gan..

It's only 'balanced' if it agrees with the liberal ideals. How often does this need to be pointed out to you??

Daniel
08-29-2008, 11:39 AM
Funny how the Politico was the ONLY one to ask the question.

I give props to the Politco for being pretty balanced.

If you have a source that says otherwise, I'd like to see it.

Yea, because being balanced is all about bringing up the most retarded shit to support the side your on.

JohnGalt
09-12-2008, 05:30 PM
Imagine a world where all the brilliant producers of global goods and services -- people like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Bill Gates, Andrew Carnegie -- disappeared overnight.

What would that world be like?

Would it be a workers' paradise, as the Communists claimed?

Would it be a world of peace and love free of the greed of capitalism, as the Pope has argued?

Or would it become a living hell on earth?