PETA Fights Military Medical Training

[ClydeR]

PETA is trying to stop military medics from learning to treat gunshot wounds.


The group demanded the exercise be halted after it was notified by a "distraught" soldier from the unit, who disclosed a plan to shoot the animals with M4 carbines and M16 rifles.

"There's absolutely no reason why they have to shoot live pigs," PETA spokeswoman Holly Beal said.

The bloody exercise, she said, is difficult for soldiers because they sometimes associate the animals with their own pet dogs.

Cheng said the exercise is conducted in a controlled environment with the pigs anesthetized the entire time. He had "no doubt whatsoever" in the effectiveness of the instruction, which he called the best option available at the base.

"Those alternative methods just can't replicate what the troops are going to face when we use live-tissue training," he said. "What we're doing is unique to what the soldiers are going to actually experience."

More... (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/18/national/main4271069.shtml)

I say it's better to lean on pigs in advance than to learn on actual soldiers in the field.

[Fallen]

This is done near me. The pigs are given a powerful anesthetic. They do not feel anything, and are usually in a sling, eating food and what not as the procedures are being done.

I'm not saying this justifies what is done, but it is no more cruel and unusual than a slaughter house.

[Gan]

Worse case scenario - they have plenty of bacon for tomorrow's breakfast...



The bloody exercise, she said, is difficult for soldiers because they sometimes associate the animals with their own pet dogs.

What kind of soldiers are we talking about here?

[Fallen]

It is hard, and this is coming from a soldier. The "goat labs" in San Antonio are tough as well. Pigs, and especially goats are friendly animals, much like dogs, and taking their life, even when it serves a purpose is difficult, and on some levels wrong.

To say they suffer though is wrong, atleast in as much as any animal suffers when being processed for food or any other materials. They are treated humanely under the direct care and supervision of trained technicians and vets. Their quality of life up until they are used in such protocols would likely far exceed anything in the meat/dairy industry.

[BriarFox]

Worse case scenario - they have plenty of bacon for tomorrow's breakfast...


What kind of soldiers are we talking about here?

Hahaha. The fru-fru kind?

[Fallen]

Even if you're a hunter, it isn't very sporting to shoot a pig in the ass at close range with a semi-automatic weapon as it sits partially paralyzed in a sling.

[AnticorRifling]

Even if you're a hunter, it isn't very sporting to shoot a pig in the ass at close range with a semi-automatic weapon as it sits partially paralyzed in a sling.


I'd rather shoot the pig then get shot in the field and become the test subject.

I'm sure the animal husbandry is such that the pigs aren't being mistreated.

It's not a pretty ordeal regardless but I don't think it's inhumane and I understand the why's behind it.

[Fallen]

Agreed. It isn't pleasant work, but fuck, it beats being in Iraq/Afganistan any god damn day of the week.

[AnticorRifling]

I remember when we had some disease run rampant through one of our hog barns growing up. Nothing says fun like having to kill and burn 2500 head of pig.

[Clove]

http://punditkitchen.wordpress.com/files/2008/07/political-pictures-military-kid-play-halo.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

They should use dogs or cats, or something that strikes closer to the elements of human psyche. This is a waste of pig. I'd have way more issues trying to kill a golden retriever puppy than ham.

[Fallen]

They use goats/pigs because of the similar anatomy for the area being tested.

[Stanley Burrell]

If I dissected the fetal pig and found a gigantic M-16 bullet, I'd be thoroughly freaked.

EDIT - Although, it would sort of be cool. You could put a whole assortment of things inside a fetal pig, let alone an adult. Drugs. Weapons. First trimester fetal pigs.

[Paradii]

anyone know if they are using feral or farm raised pigs?

[Stanley Burrell]

I haven't heard any war stories of pig wounds, so I'm guessing that they're anesthetized having come from a large source of swine. Plus, that would sort of be non-productive. A pig is like a large mouse when it comes to animal similarities with humans. It makes a wealth of sense, for several reasons I'm too tired to discuss, about why we use pigs. They are put out of their misery faster than the slaughterhouse line-up. This is about a hundred times more ethical than the eradication of pigs for produce. Imho, imho, imho.

[BigWorm]

I haven't heard any war stories of pig wounds, so I'm guessing that they're anesthetized having come from a large source of swine. Plus, that would sort of be non-productive. A pig is like a large mouse when it comes to animal similarities with humans. It makes a wealth of sense, for several reasons I'm too tired to discuss, about why we use pigs. They are put out of their misery faster than the slaughterhouse line-up. This is about a hundred times more ethical than the eradication of pigs for produce. Imho, imho, imho.

Well, number one being that pork tastes the most like human flesh.

[CrystalTears]

Well, number one being that pork tastes the most like human flesh.
And why human flesh is called long pig.

[Stanley Burrell]

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/facelift/lecter0103.jpg

OH HI

[crb]

I like animals as much as the next guy, but PETA is wacko.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY

[Nieninque]

Why would you be upset that an organisation that fights for animal rights is fighting for animal rights?

You are all about the free speech and democracy, yet when someone exercises their democratic right to free speech you are all "OHNOEZ...THEY ARE SAYING STUFF!!!112"

[Stanley Burrell]

Why would you be upset that an organisation that fights for animal rights is fighting for animal rights?

You are all about the free speech and democracy, yet when someone exercises their democratic right to free speech you are all "OHNOEZ...THEY ARE SAYING STUFF!!!112"

I'm just waiting for them to get their teeth kicked in and decline having one of our personal trained overseas attend shattered PETA face.

[Fallen]

PETA is bad, but they aren't as bad as the ALF.

[g++]

PETA is bad, but they aren't as bad as the ALF.

At least ALF admits their wack job terrorists.

[Stanley Burrell]

Considering ELF is on the terror list.

http://i38.tinypic.com/35at6pu.jpg

They've been persecuted for their beliefs as well. That was the fifth Google image result for Legolas.

[crb]

Why would you be upset that an organisation that fights for animal rights is fighting for animal rights?

You are all about the free speech and democracy, yet when someone exercises their democratic right to free speech you are all "OHNOEZ...THEY ARE SAYING STUFF!!!112"
Just because I believe in free speech doesn't mean I agree with what everyone has to say, and PETA's agenda, if successful, would affect my life, so I'm against it. Is this really that hard of a concept to understand? I wouldn't try to silence them, but I sure as hell will call them wackjobs. That, being, of course, my exercise of free speech.

I like having cats and dogs as pets, I like eating meat. And if animal testing can save human lives, including potentially my life one day, I'm okay with it.

The thing about PETA is that people think they're just like anti-fur and anti-torture or anti-cruelty as a mainstream person would define cruelty. They aren't, they're so far beyond that.

[Parkbandit]

PETA is bad, but they aren't as bad as the ALF.

WTF?

http://www.backtotheeighties.net/images/alf11.jpg

[Clove]

PETA is not an animal welfare organization.
PETA spends less than one percent of its multi-million dollar budget actually helping animals. The group euthanized (killed) more than 1,900 animals in 2003 alone -- that's over 85 percent of the animals it received. In fact, from July 1998 through the end of 2003, PETA killed over 10,000 dogs, cats, and other "companion animals" at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. That's more than five animals every day. On its 2002 federal income-tax return, PETA claimed a $9,370 expense for a giant walk-in freezer, the kind most people use as a meat locker or for ice-cream storage. But animal-rights activists don't eat meat or dairy foods. So far, the group hasn't confirmed the obvious -- that it's using the appliance to store the bodies of its victims.Dude, wait... what? Did I read this right? CRB's wife's a pig?

[crb]

What are you, in Junior high?

[Stanley Burrell]

PETA is not an animal welfare organization.
PETA spends less than one percent of its multi-million dollar budget actually helping animals. The group euthanized (killed) more than 1,900 animals in 2003 alone -- that's over 85 percent of the animals it received. In fact, from July 1998 through the end of 2003, PETA killed over 10,000 dogs, cats, and other "companion animals" at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. That's more than five animals every day. On its 2002 federal income-tax return, PETA claimed a $9,370 expense for a giant walk-in freezer, the kind most people use as a meat locker or for ice-cream storage. But animal-rights activists don't eat meat or dairy foods. So far, the group hasn't confirmed the obvious -- that it's using the appliance to store the bodies of its victims.

I want just one person from this organization to act selflessly and understand that they didn't act as the interpreting voice of every single frickin' metazoan on this planet's surface. We are not above animals. PETA adequately proves this. They'll never be listed as a terrorist organization either, which is unfortunate in my mind, because breaking and entering and Michael Vicking every animal research laboratory is probably about as taxing and non-law-abiding within the spectrum of the general population as those ELF (derogatory word)'s acts of lighting a cornfield on fire.

I just hope they're using hippy infiltration within private research facilities. You don't give animal torturers a Revco. PETA indulges in animal torture. Their acts won't help a single soul. Nothing -- Nothing is gained by their killing these animals. I draw the line on existential this-why-I'm-right tangents when you kill what you are supporting in your own cause. Fuck them. Fuck their animal Masada crusader delusions. Advocating frozen head preservation within a mass of pseudo-enlightened borderline personality freaks isn't wise.

[Clove]

What are you, in Junior high?Yes, I'm in Jr. High.

[crb]

I just hope they're using hippy infiltration within private research facilities. You don't give animal torturers a Revco. PETA indulges in animal torture. Their acts won't help a single soul. Nothing -- Nothing is gained by their killing these animals. I draw the line on existential this-why-I'm-right tangents when you kill what you are supporting in your own cause. Fuck them. Fuck their animal Masada crusader delusions. Advocating frozen head preservation within a mass of pseudo-enlightened borderline personality freaks isn't wise.

I once worked in a genetic engineering (plants) research lab at MSU, like a year after that dude firebombed the animal research lab there. They were seriously worried about security, even after working there for 6 months I was finally allowed in the greenhouses and only once, and with an escort at all times. They were worried I was a hippy infiltrator.

[Clove]

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals provides aid and comfort for the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and the Animal Liberation Front (ALF). The two groups are responsible for more than 600 crimes since 1996, causing (by a very conservative FBI estimate) more than $43 million in damage. ALF’s “press office” brags that in 2002, the two groups committed “100 illegal direct actions” -- like blowing up SUVs, destroying the brakes on seafood delivery trucks, and planting firebombs in restaurants.

The FBI calls ALF and ELF the nation’s “most serious domestic terrorism threat.” Bruce Friedrich, PETA’s “vegan campaign director” and third-in-command, didn’t seem to care when he addressed the Animal Rights 2001 convention in Virginia, telling a crowd of over 1,000 activists that “blowing stuff up and smashing windows” is “a great way to bring about animal liberation.”

“It would be great,” he added, “if all the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories and the banks who fund them exploded tomorrow.”

PETA’s connections to ALF and ELF are indisputable. “We did it, we did it. We gave $1,500 to the ELF for a specific program,” PETA’s Lisa Lange admitted on the Fox News Channel. PETA has offered no fewer than eight different explanations of what the “specific program” was, but law enforcement leaders have noted that since the Earth Liberation Front is a criminal enterprise, it has absolutely no legal “programs” of any kind.

For instance, in 2003, ELF set fire to an unfinished, 200 unit condominium complex near San Diego. The arson caused $50 million in damage, and according to a San Diego Fire Captain: “It could have killed someone.” ELF left its calling card in the form of a twelve foot sign that read: “If you build it -- we will burn it -- the ELF’s are mad.”

PETA also has given $2,000 to David Wilson, then a national ALF “spokesperson.” The group paid $27,000 for the legal defense of Roger Troen, who was arrested for taking part in an October 1986 burglary and arson at the University of Oregon. It gave $7,500 to Fran Stephanie Trutt, who tried to murder the president of a medical laboratory. It gave $5,000 to Josh Harper, who attacked Native Americans on a whale hunt by throwing smoke bombs, shooting flares, and spraying their faces with chemical fire extinguishers. All of these monies were paid out of tax-exempt funds, the same pot of money constantly enlarged by donations from an unsuspecting general public.

PETA president Ingrid Newkirk is also an acknowledged financial supporter of a publication called No Compromise. This periodical operates on behalf of the radicals of ALF, and often publishes underground “communiqués” and calls to arms from ALF leaders.

Most ominously, PETA president Ingrid Newkirk was involved in the multi-million-dollar arson at Michigan State University that resulted in a 57-month prison term for Animal Liberation Front bomber Rodney Coronado. At Coronado’s sentencing hearing, U.S. Attorney Michael Dettmer said that PETA’s Ingrid Newkirk arranged ahead of time to have Coronado send her a pair of FedEx packages from Michigan -- one on the day before he burned the lab down, and the other shortly afterward.

The first FedEx, according to the Sentencing Memorandum, was delivered to a woman named Maria Blanton, “a longtime PETA member who had agreed to accept the first Federal Express package from Coronado after being asked to do so by Ingrid Newkirk.” The FBI intercepted the second package, which had been sent to the same address. It contained documents that Coronado stole before lighting his firebombs, as well as “a videotape of the perpetrator of the MSU crime, disguised in a ski mask.” Since Coronado was convicted of the arson, we now know that he himself was that masked man. “Significantly,” wrote U.S. Attorney Dettmer, “Newkirk had arranged to have the package[s] delivered to her days before the MSU arson occurred.” (emphasis in the original)

A search warrant executed at Blanton’s home turned up evidence that PETA’s other co-founder, Alex Pacheco, had also been planning burglaries and break-ins along with Rodney Coronado. The feds seized “surveillance logs; code names for Coronado, Pacheco, and others; burglary tools; two-way radios; night vision goggles; [and] phony identification for Coronado and Pacheco.”

Shortly after Coronado’s arrest, PETA gave $45,200 to his “support committee” and “loaned” $25,000 to his father (the loan was never repaid and PETA hasn’t complained). Now free from jail, with an expired parole, and with the benefit of an expired Statute of Limitations on his many earlier arsons (to which he readily confesses in his standard stump speech), Coronado stood before a crowd of hundreds of young people at American University in January 2003 and demonstrated how to turn a milk jug into a bomb. A few days later, ALF criminals tried to burn down a McDonald’s restaurant in Chico, California, using a firebomb that matched Coronado’s recipe.

The following month, Ingrid Newkirk told ABC News that Rodney Coronado is “a fine young man.”

Newkirk wrote a book called Free the Animals! The Untold Story of the U.S. Animal Liberation Front and Its Founder, ‘Valerie.’ In it she writes: “The ALF has, over the years, trusted People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) to receive copies of the evidence of wrongdoing … I have also become somewhat used to jumping on a plane with copies of freshly purloined documents and hurriedly calling news conferences to discuss the ALF’s findings.” Indeed, PETA has held such press conferences just hours after ALF arsons and other break-ins.

PETA has published a leaflet called “Animal Liberation Front: the Army of the Kind.” In another pamphlet, “Activism and the Law,” PETA openly offers advice on “burning a laboratory building.”

“I will be the last person to condemn ALF,” says Newkirk. And in another interview: “I find it small wonder that the laboratories aren’t all burning to the ground. If I had more guts, I’d light a match.” In ALF’s publication Bite Back (yes, this terrorist group has a newsletter), Newkirk has said: “You can’t have all politeness and patience, all potlucks and epistles … Some people will never budge unless [they are] pushed to budge.”

Perhaps Newkirk’s most telling comment, though, came in a 2002 U.S. News & World Report feature. “Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective,” she admitted. “We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works.”PETA is ALF

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

God I hate PETA, and the ALF. They euthanize a majority of "rescued" animals they get, even ones that are able to be rehabilitated and given a new life. I know some people who support ALF that believe that all animals should live in a free state of being -- i.e. let your house cats and your dogs out and they fend for themselves. Yeah, that sounds very sane and humane!

Animal research isn't ever going to be pretty, but I understand why medically, animal testing is absolutely vital. So many vaccines we now have almost exclusively because we are able to test and refine them using animal subjects. As far as the pigs themselves go, it sounds like they die in a much better way than commercial farm animals and even better than plenty of humans.. plus, it's obviously pretty essential. It's not like people are shooting the pigs for fun, and what's better, they practice on human soldiers?

[Methais]

The soldiers would get much better training by just driving down a road in South Central and scooping up any nearby gunshot wound victims.

[Stanley Burrell]

I once worked in a genetic engineering (plants) research lab at MSU, like a year after that dude firebombed the animal research lab there. They were seriously worried about security, even after working there for 6 months I was finally allowed in the greenhouses and only once, and with an escort at all times. They were worried I was a hippy infiltrator.

If security is worried about that, worry like grown adults worry and make sure that it worries someone who isn't just internal and twirling a baton. The system is backwards. HIPAA for non-human animals is way more difficult to authorize than standard human tissue culture work. The pathology department can get your histology if something wonky is up with it, so long as it's from human beings and not guinea pigs.

That is, of course, unless you work for non-government university research and need to make sure America's future is safe by testing whether or not the newest cosmetic eyeliner has less hypoallergenic effects when spritzed in the eyes of lagomorphs. You know: To ensure our survival.

The OP might not know why he doesn't agree with PETA and its syndicates, but I do.

[Stanley Burrell]

The soldiers would get much better training by just driving down a road in South Central and scooping up any nearby gunshot wound victims.

What sucks is that you have premeds on the front lines who are specializing in, say, OBGYN or oncology; and would have no field research experience that would substantiate and fulfill their applied field of research back home. Emergency surgery isn't going to be learned with the caliber to teach its finer assets back home as it will the results of a suicide bombing if you are half a standard deviation away from being an OR surgeon in South Central.

When you talk about born-and-bred military, it might be someone who hasn't even finished their GAD -- But if they can heal you as a combat medic, you really don't care about their wall plaques back home.

The grand round seminars the enlisted give where they try to link Iraq to research (non-fellowships) are cute. Not that I don't think they deserve to get a little bit of leeway to talk about themselves and act self-righteous, but actual researchers and grant-writers are laughing at you. No offense to whoever you might be.

[Clove]

You're cute. WTF does this have to do with PETA?

[Stanley Burrell]

The same thing your wife being a pig does.

[Daniel]

The soldiers would get much better training by just driving down a road in South Central and scooping up any nearby gunshot wound victims.

They do that too..

All special forces medics spend 3-4 months in the trauma center of a major metropolitan city.

[Clove]

The same thing your wife being a pig does.That's not three paragraphs of your ADD non-sequiter bullshit.

[Ashmoon]

I like animals as much as the next guy, but PETA is wacko.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY

No doubt. Talking 15 year old girls into protesting at the local KFC, complete with a free protest packet full of disgusting pictures of bloody chickens.

I like animals too but how about put some of that effort to helping mistreated humans?

Back on topic, I wonder when someone will protest the practice in the interest of realism.

[Stanley Burrell]

That's not three paragraphs of your ADD non-sequiter bullshit.

#A) And?

2. It's less than one sentence self-illustrating hypocrisy that I still choke-slammed you on.

iii: It was on-topic, but I really don't give two and half self-induced enemas. It doesn't make your wife any less of an off-topic swine tangent you started. Non-sequitur numbnuts. Don't even use the word "non-sequitur" after that shit you just pulled. Say something ParkBandit-esque. I am banning you from multi syllabic words. Since this is a ClydeR thread, you can especially stfu.

[Clove]

#A) And?

2. It's less than one sentence self-illustrating hypocrisy that I still choke-slammed you on.

iii: It was on-topic, but I really don't give two and half self-induced enemas. It doesn't make your wife any less of an off-topic swine tangent you started. Non-sequitur numbnuts. Don't even use the word "non-sequitur" after that shit you just pulled. Say something ParkBandit-esque. I am banning you from multi syllabic words. Since this is a ClydeR thread, you can especially stfu.Actually my quote was full on topic and it's CRB's wife that's the pig, but we have low expectations of your drug-addled perception. Oh, and you were rambling off-topic like you always do, bitch.

[TheRunt]

Whats this talk of PETA being bad? I'm a member of PETA. People Eating Tasty Animals.

[Stanley Burrell]

Actually my quote was full on topic and it's CRB's wife that's the pig, but we have low expectations of your drug-addled perception. Oh, and you were rambling off-topic like you always do, bitch.


You're cute. WTF does this have to do with PETA?

I honestly want to smoke crack so I can still have a better sense of what's going on than you. One thing I can't stand is a hypocrite, and that's what you are. I can't stand hypocrites who tries to save face on an online forum, or when I make a typo about this stupid shit in the first place. BURN MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111one.

As long as you know you're right about this, specifically, is why it isn't a big enough deal for me to care about it as much as you might.

Which is why you can suck it. Etc.

You tell me what part of this is on-topic pertaining to your post about your benelovent overseeing of threads being on-topic to the original post:


Dude, wait... what? Did I read this right? CRB's wife's a pig?

^ This is called time-wasting. Even if it proves a point. That I'm an idiot. That you're wrong. Etc.

This is bullshit. Fuck it, you're right about everything. You know why? Because it's fucking 9:00PM on a Tuesday and I need to feed my iguana and hopefully fap off before the night is through.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Whats this talk of PETA being bad? I'm a member of PETA. People Eating Tasty Animals.


Mwahaha.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor

I also have a shirt that says "Pigs are friends, and great food."