OMG Recession

[Apathy]

Politics folder is pretty dead, I wonder if we're all getting desensitized or if it's just the lull between primaries.

Anyways, I just wanted to bitch about rising prices on necessities like food and gas. It sucks. Add to that our own Chairman giving us a big boost of confidence with his speeches and WaMu singing its death knell while we pump billions into that shit business-plan of a bank I expect it to be a fantastic 2008.

SO LETS BLAME SOMEONE.

I blame Rove, Bush, Reagan, Clinton, and Greenspan. And illegal immigrants.

I am serious about Greenspan.

Who do you blame?

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Anyways, I just wanted to bitch about rising prices on necessities like food and gas.>>

My low fuel light went on today, so I went to my local gas station. $3.21 per gallon.

My low fuel light is still on.

[thefarmer]

Politics folder is pretty dead, I wonder if we're all getting desensitized or if it's just the lull between primaries.

Anyways, I just wanted to bitch about rising prices on necessities like food and gas. It sucks. Add to that our own Chairman giving us a big boost of confidence with his speeches and WaMu singing its death knell while we pump billions into that shit business-plan of a bank I expect it to be a fantastic 2008.

SO LETS BLAME SOMEONE.

I blame Rove, Bush, Reagan, Clinton, and Greenspan. And illegal immigrants.

I am serious about Greenspan.

Who do you blame?

Rove, Bush, Reagan, Clinton and Greenspan are all white people.

The gas giants are run by white people.

Blame the white people who you just listed before you blame the illegal immigrants working at McDonalds, doing construction and picking the crops.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Wal-mart.

[Back]

House sales bubble burst coupled with high oil prices.

Who is to blame?

I’m no economics expert but... tax reliefs for the rich and deferred during a so-called time of war does not strike me as a good plan.

[Clove]

House sales bubble burst coupled with high oil prices.

Who is to blame?

I’m no economics expert.Fixed it.

[Gan]

I blame a loosely regulated securitization market (mortgages) and overextended consumption habits in states with lax lending laws.

I also blame bad IR policies with regards to the middle east coupled with overextended fuel consumption habits of an economy addicted to petrol.

Greenspan is hardly to blame, the only thing I find fault is his reluctance of recommending fixes to the rampant unregulated sub-prime lending habits (and greed) of the major lenders.

[Gan]

Fixed it.


I'm no economics expert

Winner

[Daniel]

I blame the cultivation of a society that feels it is neccessary to live beyond its means.

[Parkbandit]

I blame the cultivation of a society that feels it is neccessary to live beyond its means.

Instead of saying "I blame the people who live way beyond their means", you instead try and make them victims.

[Daniel]

Since when does a society not include people?

[ElanthianSiren]

I blame the fact that very few people are given positive role modeling when it comes to saving, markets, and financial planning. My dad can be a bit obsessive to that end, so I learned some things that have helped me. The approach that we can just spend whatever works fine in a boon economy, obviously, but people's shitty habits catch up in a stagnant or recessive economy, then it's wah wah wah.

You don't need a lexus because your neighbor buys a lexus. -Or a grand piano because your sister bought one; my mom was going to do this and was stopped dead in her tracks. People IMO need to be more practical with how they spend; in my mom's case, she has palsy in one arm from a spinal surgery and arthritis in her fingers, so a piano isn't practical. That's an extreme example, but I also lived with a guy who would spend an average of 75 a week on breakfast and lunch, but it wasn't good high quality food, it was fast food, processed food, and take out. He'd then wonder where all the money went. You can't cut a whole expense, but you can cut corners.

So I blame shitty rolemodelling and peoples' inability to motivate themselves to be creative and find ways to save more.

[Clove]

So I blame shitty rolemodelling and peoples' inability to motivate themselves to be creative and find ways to save more.I agree, ultimate responsibility belongs to the individual. We have an economy of debt (compare the average person's savings today to that 20 years ago) and that has been created by ignorance and greed.

Ignorance and greed on the consumer side which has been cultivated. We don't spend nearly enough time (or resources) teaching children and young adults about responsible money management. At the same time banks and businesses are happy to push people to finance more than they can afford (and with no plan of paying it back).

We can pass legislation to limit predatory lending, but until we make a commitment to train (yes Latrin, train that dehumanizing endeavor) ourselves to effectively manage our personal wealth, we're only addressing half of the problem.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I blame the cultivation of a society that feels it is neccessary to live beyond its means.

I'd agree. Too many people just use bankruptcy as an out, no self control, no personal responsibility, and ultimately no honorable leaders (Enron, Spitzer, Clinton, etc, etc, etc...). Everyone thinks it's OK so long as it's good for themselves.

It's like people no longer realize the difference between right and wrong.

So I guess my blame lies with values, or the lack thereof.

[Stanley Burrell]

I blame organ grinders.

[Warriorbird]

Sort of funny that you don't include Bush or the Republican Congress in that list, SHM. Poster children for a lack of economic responsibility.

[Clove]

Sort of funny that you don't include Bush or the Republican Congress in that list, SHM. Poster children for a lack of economic responsibility.The Bush administration is an influential factor but not the underlying problem. Bush didn't make the mortgage lending industry push the envelope until they nosed into a stall. Bush didn't sucker people into signing mortgages they couldn't afford either. You can point your finger at his policies as part (even a large part) of the problem, but (in my opinion) it's just ridiculous to point at his administration as a scapegoat and if only a better President had been in office, we'd be A-Ok.

[Daniel]

I agree, ultimate responsibility belongs to the individual. We have an economy of debt (compare the average person's savings today to that 20 years ago) and that has been created by ignorance and greed.

Ignorance and greed on the consumer side which has been cultivated. We don't spend nearly enough time (or resources) teaching children and young adults about responsible money management. At the same time banks and businesses are happy to push people to finance more than they can afford (and with no plan of paying it back).

We can pass legislation to limit predatory lending, but until we make a commitment to train (yes Latrin, train that dehumanizing endeavor) ourselves to effectively manage our personal wealth, we're only addressing half of the problem.

I'd argue that beyond this a major part of the problem is the fact that we teach ourselves a economic theory that implies that there are infinitely resources available.

The same companies falling apart right now were not too long ago the subject of case studies in business schools across the country. This just isn't driven by the consumer side, but it also implies in how our financial system works.

We've adopted this "free market" illusion that says the less oversight, the less regulation and thus the less restraint the better, regardless of the implications.

Now our chickens are coming home to roost, as it were.

(Not to say that I support massive regulation, but rather judicious and prudent regulation)

[Clove]

(Not to say that I support massive regulation, but rather judicious and prudent regulation)Exactly. Regulation has its role- I don't know too many folks outside the Libertarian Party that want a pure lassaiz fair economy.

In the simplest terms our present economic woes are the result of a greedy and ignorant public, married to greedy and ignorant enterprisers left unchecked by a greedy and ignorant government. Bush and Congress have their component, banks and big business have their component, but at the end of the day the American public vote with the decisions they make and the dollars they spend. And they've voted for a debt-driven economy; debts that are failing.

[Valthissa]

Exactly. Regulation has its role- I don't know too many folks outside the Libertarian Party that want a pure lassaiz fair economy.

In the simplest terms our present economic woes are the result of a greedy and ignorant public, married to greedy and ignorant enterprisers left unchecked by a greedy and ignorant government. Bush and Congress have their component, banks and big business have their component, but at the end of the day the American public vote with the decisions they make and the dollars they spend. And they've voted for a debt-driven economy; debts that are failing.

Devil's advocate argument:

If the government comes along and transfers wealth from people that did not overspend and get into debt beyond their means to those that did, then won't the 'greedy and ignorant' seem wise in retrospect?

C/Valth

oh, and I always bring up the obvious in these threads - debt itself is neither good or bad, it's what you are left with in return for your indebtedness that counts.

[Gan]

Sort of funny that you don't include Bush or the Republican Congress in that list, SHM. Poster children for a lack of economic responsibility.

Yes, because Democrats are bastions of fiscal and economic responsibility.

How's the water in the shallow end?

[Daniel]

Yes, because Democrats are bastions of fiscal and economic responsibility.

How's the water in the shallow end?

Republicans should probably hold off on the fiscal responsibility schtick until after the Iraq war is paid off.

[Clove]

<<Anyways, I just wanted to bitch about rising prices on necessities like food and gas.>>

My low fuel light went on today, so I went to my local gas station. $3.21 per gallon.

My low fuel light is still on.Out of curiousity, do you think gasoine is going to actually get cheaper before your tank runs dry?

[Keller]

Plug: Want less debt financed enterprise? Write your congressman and tell them that corporate dividends should be treated as deductible against corporate income so as not to favor debt over equity. Current law allows corporations to deduct interest paid on debt (thus lowering the relative cost of debt) but requires corporations to include amounts paid as dividends (analogy: Interest is to debt as dividends are to equity) in corporate income. Both dividends and interest are includable in the payees income. Thus, debt-financing will continue to be preferred and will continue to cause major problems in economic downtimes because firms have financed to the teeth in good economic times to their detriment in downtimes.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Clove

Out of curiousity, do you think gasoine is going to actually get cheaper before your tank runs dry?

Score 1 for Jersey .. cheapest gas in the nation!

[Keller]

Out of curiousity, do you think gasoine is going to actually get cheaper before your tank runs dry?

It might be that he does not have the cash to buy enough gas -- regardless of whether he thinks the price will go up.

[TheEschaton]

I filled up this morning cause I was riding fumes - 3.25 per gallon. My 10 gallon car cost me more than $30 to fill.

-TheE-

[Warriorbird]

Republicans should probably hold off on the fiscal responsibility schtick until after the Iraq war is paid off.

Bingo! In ten years the double Republican controlled Congress tripled spending. Spendthrift liberals historically would only .5x to double spending. Then again... my distate for Congress of any sort has been oft expressed.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Sort of funny that you don't include Bush or the Republican Congress in that list, SHM. Poster children for a lack of economic responsibility.

You can include anyone you want, I don't care. My comment wasn't partisan.

Funny would be you not bashing Republicans, because that would be something you've never done.

[Keller]

You can include anyone you want, I don't care. My comment wasn't partisan.

Funny would be you not bashing Republicans, because that would be something you've never done.

Take an honest look at the situation. It's not too hard to find beef with Republicans right now. If I were an historical Republican, I'd be trying to reclaim my party about now. I think Romney would have been a great candidate if he didn't cow-tow to the religious right.

[Clove]

...Both dividends and interest are includable in the payees income. Thus, debt-financing will continue to be preferred and will continue to cause major problems in economic downtimes because firms have financed to the teeth in good economic times to their detriment in downtimes.Don't get me started on how corporate tax structure influences corporate behavior in our economy.

Keller's Next Lesson: MACRS- Depreciation fun for the whole family.

[Clove]

Score 1 for Jersey .. cheapest gas in the nation!I'll be driving south soon... I'm so filling up in Jersey.

[CrystalTears]

Funny would be you not bashing Republicans, because that would be something you've never done.
His head would cave in.

[Clove]

Devil's advocate argument:

If the government comes along and transfers wealth from people that did not overspend and get into debt beyond their means to those that did, then won't the 'greedy and ignorant' seem wise in retrospect?

C/ValthMaybe, but to my way of thinking it's like asking "Which dose of poison do you prefer? Just enough to kill you, or twice that?" There's no (acceptable) lesser evil here.


oh, and I always bring up the obvious in these threads - debt itself is neither good or bad, it's what you are left with in return for your indebtedness that counts.
Debt isn't necessarily bad when it's intelligently managed. Think of it as the diet equivalent to sugar and candy- it's fine in it's place and time in moderation; but too much of it will rot your teeth and ruin your health.

[Gan]

Cheap Gas in your area.

http://autos.msn.com/everyday/gasstations.aspx?zip&src=Netx

Just enter in your zip code.

[Warriorbird]

I voted for John Warner. I voted for Richard Burr. I've voted Republican before. My head didn't cave in. It is rare, mind you.

[Clove]

CheapEST Gas in your area.

http://autos.msn.com/everyday/gasstations.aspx?zip&src=Netx

Just enter in your zip code.Fixed it for you. Cheapest gas in my area is 3.29 per and it's 10 miles away. Cheapest gas in my town (within 3 miles) is 3.37.

[Gan]

Cheapest in my area is $3.15/gal. Average is $3.30/gal. Highest is $3.40.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Out of curiousity, do you think gasoine is going to actually get cheaper before your tank runs dry?>>

I know it's cheaper in New Hampshire, and I've seen it go down $0.10+ overnight recently.

[Clove]

<<Out of curiousity, do you think gasoine is going to actually get cheaper before your tank runs dry?>>

I know it's cheaper in New Hampshire, and I've seen it go down $0.10+ overnight recently. Can you make it to NH with the low fuel light on?

Bonus question:

If fuel is $3.29/gallon by your house (zero mileage) and your car gets 25 MPG how far can you travel to put 16 gallons in your car at $3.19/gallon before you start losing money?

[Rathgar]

Instead of saying "I blame the people who live way beyond their means", you instead try and make them victims.

Heh, actually being in the marketing industry I can tell you we (as in big business and societal trend setters) do everything in our conceivable power to get you to live way beyond your means. And we also direct people to laugh at people who try not to. Thats our job, just to let you know.

[Rathgar]

And I predict gas prices will stay the same. These speculators are true sickos they sit there up in their 90th story buildings looking at their dozen flatscreen televisions hoping and praying another 'big attack' will occur in Iraq. I understand that greed works... but this is ridiculous.

[Clove]

Heh, actually being in the marketing industry I can tell you we (as in big business and societal trend setters) do everything in our conceivable power to get you to live way beyond your means. And we also direct people to laugh at people who try not to. Thats our job, just to let you know.Which is why I hate the marketing and advertising industry... but still nobody holds a gun to anyone's head and orders them to spend more than they make, or to sign loans with awful terms; and I don't mind being laughed at for living within my means or using financing intelligently. I end up with the last and loudest laugh between us.

[AnticorRifling]

I'm married, which by definition means someone is making me live outside my means.

[Clove]

I'm married, which by definition means someone is making me live outside my means.You know the difference between a Married Man and a Single Man?



























The Married Man keeps pictures where his money used to be.

[AnticorRifling]

Ain't that the truth.

[Rathgar]

But you get a steady source of sex?

[AnticorRifling]

But you get a steady source of sex?

HAHAHAHAHAhahaha

No seriously

HAHAHAHAHAhahahaha

[Clove]

HAHAHAHAHAhahaha

No seriously

HAHAHAHAHAhahahaha:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

No. You get pictures :D

[Parkbandit]

Since when does a society not include people?


I'm not surprised you cannot understand the difference between what you posted and what I posted. One is based upon owning up to your own responsibility.. the other is based upon blaming someone else for your problems.

[Parkbandit]

The Bush administration is an influential factor but not the underlying problem. Bush didn't make the mortgage lending industry push the envelope until they nosed into a stall. Bush didn't sucker people into signing mortgages they couldn't afford either. You can point your finger at his policies as part (even a large part) of the problem, but (in my opinion) it's just ridiculous to point at his administration as a scapegoat and if only a better President had been in office, we'd be A-Ok.


Actually, wasn't it Congress that forced the mortgage industry to relax their lending practices.. to let those who can't really afford a mortgage, to obtain one?

[Parkbandit]

Heh, actually being in the marketing industry I can tell you we (as in big business and societal trend setters) do everything in our conceivable power to get you to live way beyond your means. And we also direct people to laugh at people who try not to. Thats our job, just to let you know.

I must be overly intelligent, as I've never lived over my means. This goes back to me making minimum wage and living on my own. I've had loans and mortgages.. but I've never been so stupid to think that "Gee, in 5 years when my mortgage rate goes through the roof.. I'll just deal with it then"

[Clove]

Actually, wasn't it Congress that forced the mortgage industry to relax their lending practices.. to let those who can't really afford a mortgage, to obtain one?I'm not aware of any particular legislation that forced/encouraged sub-prime lending; but they didn't put any legislation in to prevent it either- my opinion is banks got greedy.

Gan is the mortgage industry expert. Gan?

[Parkbandit]

I'm not aware of any particular legislation that forced/encouraged sub-prime lending; but they didn't put any legislation in to prevent it either- my opinion is banks got greedy.

Gan is the mortgage industry expert. Gan?

Yea.. I might be wrong (I dount it though), but let me look up a source.

[AnticorRifling]

Yea.. I might be wrong (I dount it though), but let me look up a source.

You dount it huh?

[Daniel]

I'm not surprised you cannot understand the difference between what you posted and what I posted. One is based upon owning up to your own responsibility.. the other is based upon blaming someone else for your problems.

I'm not surprised that you failed to comprehend what I said, even though it's been explicitly laid out in this thread.

[Keller]

I'm not surprised that you failed to comprehend what I said, even though it's been explicitly laid out in this thread.

Stop feeding the troll.

[Keller]

I must be overly intelligent . . .

No. There's got to be another explanation.

:)

[Parkbandit]

I'm not surprised that you failed to comprehend what I said, even though it's been explicitly laid out in this thread.

Here's what you said:


I blame the cultivation of a society that feels it is neccessary to live beyond its means.

This is a great deal different that blaming the people who live beyond their means.

Your first post is typical Daniel. Blame someone else for your trouble... it's the Daniel way.

I just disagree with it... strongly.

[Daniel]

You can't read english. Gotcha.

[CrystalTears]

The society is currently a group of people who don't know how to live within their means. The society cultivated that behavior themselves. I'm not sure where you're getting that he's blaming anyone other than the people within that society, PB.

Pick your battles, bro!

[Parkbandit]

You can't read english. Gotcha.


Maybe you can explain it to me. Explain how you are actually blaming individuals for their own credit problems and not a society that cultivates over extending your credit.

[Parkbandit]

The society is currently a group of people who don't know how to live within their means. The society cultivated that behavior themselves. I'm not sure where you're getting that he's blaming anyone other than the people within that society, PB.

Pick your battles, bro!


I still don't get it.

The society is everyone.. not just the small 1% of the people who foreclosed on their mortgage. So I am somehow to blame for Mr. Smith signing a mortgage with a 5 year ballooning interest rate.. when I signed a regular 30 year mortgage where I knew I would not have a problem paying it? I am somehow wrong for blaming Mr. Smith for being a dumbfuck and signing something that he knew he would never be able to afford when the balloon came due?

I'm part of this society.. and I certainly have never cultivated such a stupid idea.

[Daniel]

Maybe you can explain it to me.

Sorry. I don't teach english

[Nieninque]

Sorry. I don't speak english

Never a truer word said.

Fucking septics.

[Daniel]

Never a truer word said.

Fucking septics.

Cunt said what?

[Parkbandit]

Cunt said what?


I blame the cultivation of a society that feels it is neccessary to live beyond its means.

:shrug:

[Daniel]

rah rah

[Apathy]

Greenspan is hardly to blame, the only thing I find fault is his reluctance of recommending fixes to the rampant unregulated sub-prime lending habits (and greed) of the major lenders.

If Greenspan wasn't responsible for the rapid lowering of interest rates which in turn encouraged lenders to take on riskier and riskier loans because it became fiscally safe to do so, who was?

[Parkbandit]

If Greenspan wasn't responsible for the rapid lowering of interest rates which in turn encouraged lenders to take on riskier and riskier loans because it became fiscally safe to do so, who was?

Lower interest rates doesn't mean lowering your standards for qualifying a loan.

[Daniel]

So you can't read and you can't do math.

Fantastic.

[Apathy]

Lower interest rates doesn't mean lowering your standards for qualifying a loan.

Some people say cucumbers taste better pickled.

[Parkbandit]

So you can't read and you can't do math.

Fantastic.

I can't read Daniel's english you mean. Like posting anything you want. .then when getting called out, have such great comebacks as "You can't read english", "rah rah" and who can forget "Swoosh". When cornered, you can always use the "Teh internet r serious business!"

Then.. if pressed for more, you can simply lie and be lik 100% positive of a post.. just unable to provide any proof of said post.

Seriously Daniel.. I'm tired of these back and forths between us. Let's just agree you are a fucking dipshit and move on.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ParkBandit
I still don't get it.

The society is everyone.. not just the small 1% of the people who foreclosed on their mortgage. So I am somehow to blame for Mr. Smith signing a mortgage with a 5 year ballooning interest rate.. when I signed a regular 30 year mortgage where I knew I would not have a problem paying it? I am somehow wrong for blaming Mr. Smith for being a dumbfuck and signing something that he knew he would never be able to afford when the balloon came due?

I'm part of this society.. and I certainly have never cultivated such a stupid idea.

You don't think the one of general tones of American society/culture is excess? Obviously you don't consider yourself a person who lives a life of excess or atleast a life beyond your means but as a whole where would you place the majority?

[Daniel]

I can't read Daniel's english you mean. Like posting anything you want. .then when getting called out, have such great comebacks as "You can't read english", "rah rah" and who can forget "Swoosh". When cornered, you can always use the "Teh internet r serious business!"

Then.. if pressed for more, you can simply lie and be lik 100% positive of a post.. just unable to provide any proof of said post.

Seriously Daniel.. I'm tired of these back and forths between us. Let's just agree you are a fucking dipshit and move on.

It's woosh.

If you want this back and forth to end the solution is simple: Stop posting dumb shit and I'll stop calling you out on it.

Or you could block me like you did Keller. That's real manly of you.

[Parkbandit]

You don't think the one of general tones of American society/culture is excess? Obviously you don't consider yourself a person who lives a life of excess or atleast a life beyond your means but as a whole where would you place the majority?

I do agree that the general tones of American society is to live beyond your means.. but it's up to the individual to determine how they will live their lives. I would never blame anyone for something I brought upon myself.

If more people actually took responsibility for their own lives, instead of blaming someone else for their problems, we would be in a far better place than we are now.

[Keller]

Or you could block me like you did Keller.

It's the best thing that's happened to me on this forum.

Now I get to respond to him without actually feeding the troll.

[Parkbandit]

It's woosh.

If you want this back and forth to end the solution is simple: Stop posting dumb shit and I'll stop calling you out on it.

Or you could block me like you did Keller. That's real manly of you.

First of all.. I'm the one that called you out here for your stupid dumb shit posts...

And I would never block you Daniel.. your stupidity is far too entertaining. And :rofl: at you for thinking an internet forum makes a man of you. If the measure of a man is what you do here on this forum.. then I'll take that as a compliment.

I swear.. if it weren't for you, Backlash, Warriorbird and Ilvane.. I probably would have grown bored with this forum years ago. So, in some respects, you are to blame for me even being on this forum still.

[Keller]

I do agree that the general tones of American society is to live beyond your means.. but it's up to the individual to determine how they will live their lives. I would never blame anyone for something I brought upon myself.

If more people actually took responsibility for their own lives, instead of blaming someone else for their problems, we would be in a far better place than we are now.

The problem is that you say shit like "Daniel just plays the victim card," but Daniel seems to be in a damn good place, professionally, considering his age.

There is a difference between recognizing the reality of a situation, which Daniel did, and blaming someone else, which you accuse Daniel of doing.

[Warriorbird]

I dunno. I'd say Daniel parlaying his military service into world travel, further education, and an admirable government position is far more a measure of his capabilities. From how you refer to him you'd think he was some welfare recipient with five kids from five different women who sat around all day ranting about whitey and drinking malt liquor.

When a government plays to the worst impulses of its citizens... even makes them easier... that government has a fair degree of culpability in those citizen's mistakes. People have responsibility for their actions but if you make negative actions easier you bear some responsibility as well. If you allow an underage kid to drink and then drive your car I daresay you're going to get in trouble for it. If you give a felon a gun and you know that he or she is a felon...

I'm also amused that SHM's non partisan list of fiscally irresponsible politicians featured no Republicans.

[Apathy]

I do agree that the general tones of American society is to live beyond your means.. but it's up to the individual to determine how they will live their lives. I would never blame anyone for something I brought upon myself.

If more people actually took responsibility for their own lives, instead of blaming someone else for their problems, we would be in a far better place than we are now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualist_anarchists?

Edit: Waiting on Latrin...

[TheEschaton]

I'm also amused that SHM's non partisan list of fiscally irresponsible politicians featured no Republicans.

And that it included two Democrats not known for fiscal irresponibility, but sex scandals?

[Parkbandit]

I dunno. I'd say Daniel parlaying his military service into world travel, further education, and an admirable government position is far more a measure of his capabilities. From how you refer to him you'd think he was some welfare recipient with five kids from five different women who sat around all day ranting about whitey and drinking malt liquor.

I can only go by what he posts here... and he's consistently blaming someone else, rather than the individual. I never said anything about him personally.. since I don't know him in real life. This is the internet.. anyone can claim they have a job making 10x as much as someone else and having 10x the responsibility.. but unless you actually KNOW them.. you simply take their word for it. I wouldn't take Daniel's word for anything though.



When a government plays to the worst impulses of its citizens... even makes them easier... that government has a fair degree of culpability in those citizen's mistakes. People have responsibility for their actions but if you make negative actions easier you bear some responsibility as well. If you allow an underage kid to drink and then drive your car I daresay you're going to get in trouble for it. If you give a felon a gun and you know that he or she is a felon...

And you basically just illustrated why I generally disagree with the liberal government agenda.

[Daniel]

The problem is that you say shit like "Daniel just plays the victim card," but Daniel seems to be in a damn good place, professionally, considering his age.

There is a difference between recognizing the reality of a situation, which Daniel did, and blaming someone else, which you accuse Daniel of doing.

Bingo. I recognize the problems that I face and I do something about it. It infuriates people like pb to no end because they believe I should just accept things as they are and just stfu about it. So, they assume that if you don't do that that you're somehow angry or making excuses and it absoloutely galls them when I can laugh in their face with the confidence of overcoming the bullshit they'd like to think doesn't exist because it would destroy the notion that they've done it all on their own with no advantage.

For hilarity's sake I'd like parkbandit to post one example of me blaming anybody for any of my problems.

[Gan]

If Greenspan wasn't responsible for the rapid lowering of interest rates which in turn encouraged lenders to take on riskier and riskier loans because it became fiscally safe to do so, who was?

Remember, its not just Greenspan that votes to lower interest rates. Its the FOMC (made up of reserve chairmen of fed banks across the US). These guys are in the tops of the banking field. Greenspan just happens to be the spokesperson and an equal vote along with the others. Not withstanding that the guy is pretty fucking smart.

If you look historically at the drops in interest rates (11x) you'll see that they were the reaction to the dot.com bubble burst that happened in the late 90's and leading up into the early 2000's recession. Thats when investors pulled out of tech and dove into real estate (mortgage backed securities). Huge demand for securities led lenders to lower interest rates and more importantly lax lending standards to let more loans in through the door to keep up with the demand from the investors. Add to that unrealistic valuations in home prices, to which many, including Greenspan, warned were valuating at higher than normal rates, and you've got a mix for a rebound correction - a la the housing market bubble that we're going through now.

Its not simply just one thing though. Its a combination of lax lending practices with the major lenders (CountryWide etc.) that led to many variant types of loan vehicles to enter into the market place, such as ARMS and Hybrid ARMS - all given at low introductory rates to suck in those who could not qualify for a low fixed rate loan. Where it got messy was the lack of oversight with the originators who mislead many into thinking that they could fix their shit up within the ARM intro period to refi into a low fixed rate mortgage. Here's a clue to human behavior - dont expect much change to spending habits and consumption/debt behaviors in people who are in the shitter when they apply for a loan for a home. What in the hell does one reasonably expect to happen when you throw in the costs of home ownership? Certainly not realistic to think that in 3 to 5 years they will fix up all their credit woes in order to have a better chance at refinancing (which is just repeat business for the originators btw). What really happened is now we're bailing out these people who stepped in shit and cant get clean. Or we're watching the homes go into foreclosure. Now throw in the lure of increasing valuation (equity) and the uneducated fell for it hook line and sinker while the rookie investor who didnt get into the flip game early enough are now stuck holding the bag on a negative equity mortgage set of properties.

What really compounded this was/is the GLOBAL demand for US mortgage backed securities - not just domestic demand. So when the bubble burst - more than one market was affected. Global demand for US mortgage backed securities really speaks well for democracy and the concept of ownership and property rights - and its ironic that countries who have shitty to non-existent property rights would invest in vehicles such as this.

So yes, in a nutshell the low interest rates the Federal Reserve set as a means of recovery from the dot.com crash and impending recession were partly to blame, but you cant leave out (when you're assessing blame)the lax lending laws in specific states (CA is the largest example), and of course speculative fever (which is happening with gas prices right now) as well as overall inflationary pressures that high petrolium costs and unmodified consumption habits of our comsumption driven population.

[Keller]

Dear Backlash, you can post your :crickets: now.

edit: Not in response to Gan's wall-o-text.

[Rathgar]

These mortgages were doled out on the basis that people could pay for them on time every month. How this mess really started was slowly a very few could not legitimately pay for their mortgages as interest rates started to slowly climb (which it should imho they were too low to begin with ...which was NOT the fault of Uncle Ben(bernanke))

So then some fellas at Wall Street decided "hmm, maybe this isn't such a fantastic investment" they began to short their positions and many people holding onto mortgage back vehicles decided to cut and run. This triggered a cycle and people who were legit (meaning hardworking people who weren't fantastically rich but had these adjusted mortgages that were dependent on Wall Street's investment positions) began to suffer as well. Then more sell offs then more adjusting and more sell offs etc.

Finally, it was like a run on the bank and everyone started dumping 10, 15 year notes like they were dogshit. Investment banks like Bear Sterns (who made a crap load of money on these mortgage backed instruments back in the day) collapsed (too many eggs in one basket).

In the end, the losses supposedly totalled almost 1 trillion world wide. Many of these investments were actually held by foreigners.But imho the direct affects were very minimal, it's just perception creates it's own reality.

[Daniel]

Remember, its not just Greenspan that votes to lower interest rates. Its the FOMC (made up of reserve chairmen of fed banks across the US). These guys are in the tops of the banking field. Greenspan just happens to be the spokesperson and an equal vote along with the others. Not withstanding that the guy is pretty fucking smart.

If you look historically at the drops in interest rates (11x) you'll see that they were the reaction to the dot.com bubble burst that happened in the late 90's and leading up into the early 2000's recession. Thats when investors pulled out of tech and dove into real estate (mortgage backed securities). Huge demand for securities led lenders to lower interest rates and more importantly lax lending standards to let more loans in through the door to keep up with the demand from the investors. Add to that unrealistic valuations in home prices, to which many, including Greenspan, warned were valuating at higher than normal rates, and you've got a mix for a rebound correction - a la the housing market bubble that we're going through now.

Its not simply just one thing though. Its a combination of lax lending practices with the major lenders (CountryWide etc.) that led to many variant types of loan vehicles to enter into the market place, such as ARMS and Hybrid ARMS - all given at low introductory rates to suck in those who could not qualify for a low fixed rate loan. Where it got messy was the lack of oversight with the originators who mislead many into thinking that they could fix their shit up within the ARM intro period to refi into a low fixed rate mortgage. Here's a clue to human behavior - dont expect much change to spending habits and consumption/debt behaviors in people who are in the shitter when they apply for a loan for a home. What in the hell does one reasonably expect to happen when you throw in the costs of home ownership? Certainly not realistic to think that in 3 to 5 years they will fix up all their credit woes in order to have a better chance at refinancing (which is just repeat business for the originators btw). What really happened is now we're bailing out these people who stepped in shit and cant get clean. Or we're watching the homes go into foreclosure. Now throw in the lure of increasing valuation (equity) and the uneducated fell for it hook line and sinker while the rookie investor who didnt get into the flip game early enough are now stuck holding the bag on a negative equity mortgage set of properties.

What really compounded this was/is the GLOBAL demand for US mortgage backed securities - not just domestic demand. So when the bubble burst - more than one market was affected. Global demand for US mortgage backed securities really speaks well for democracy and the concept of ownership and property rights - and its ironic that countries who have shitty to non-existent property rights would invest in vehicles such as this.

So yes, in a nutshell the low interest rates the Federal Reserve set as a means of recovery from the dot.com crash and impending recession were partly to blame, but you cant leave out (when you're assessing blame)the lax lending laws in specific states (CA is the largest example), and of course speculative fever (which is happening with gas prices right now) as well as overall inflationary pressures that high petrolium costs and unmodified consumption habits of our comsumption driven population.

Stop making excuses for stupid people.

You must have no job and be on welfare.

[Gan]

I'm not aware of any particular legislation that forced/encouraged sub-prime lending; but they didn't put any legislation in to prevent it either- my opinion is banks got greedy.

Gan is the mortgage industry expert. Gan?

You know, I've heard this circulated around but never found any conclusive evidence to support it. I have to admit that I have not investigated it thoroughly though.

That and I wasnt in the mortgage industry until later on in the [this] decade. ;)

[Bobmuhthol]

$3.09 on my way home. Definitely the cheapest in the area. Full tank!!