Ex-terror detainee says U.S. tortured him

[Kembal]

This played on 60 Minutes last night, though I missed it. Reading it on the web, I'm horrified.


(CBS) At the age of 19, Murat Kurnaz vanished into America's shadow prison system in the war on terror. He was from Germany, traveling in Pakistan, and was picked up three months after 9/11. But there seemed to be ample evidence that Kurnaz was an innocent man with no connection to terrorism. The FBI thought so, U.S. intelligence thought so, and German intelligence agreed. But once he was picked up, Kurnaz found himself in a prison system that required no evidence and answered to no one.

Full story is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/28/60minutes/main3976928.shtml

Of course, I expect half the posters here to ignore it.

[Skeeter]

A little torture never hurt anyone.

[NocturnalRob]

something about breaking a few eggs to make a delicious omelet of peace and democracy...

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

That's a pretty sad story.

[septus]

That's a pretty sad story.

The sad part is that you can have thousands of these stories, and nothing will ever happen to those who did these crimes. Only the losers in a war are punished.

[ClydeR]

The sad part is that you can have thousands of these stories, and nothing will ever happen to those who did these crimes. Only the losers in a war are punished.

The Defense Department denies that his story is true. They even say it is "outlandish." Kurnaz does not have any evidence to support his story. The Defense Department has many people who can back up their story. There are lots of people who have been mistreated by both sides in the course of the GWOT, but this guy isn't one of them.

[Kembal]

The Defense Department denies that his story is true. They even say it is "outlandish." Kurnaz does not have any evidence to support his story. The Defense Department has many people who can back up their story. There are lots of people who have been mistreated by both sides in the course of the GWOT, but this guy isn't one of them.

Of course, what the DOD says must be right...except:


Kurnaz isn't alone in these allegations: other freed prisoners have described electric shocks at Kandahar, and even U.S. troops have admitted beating prisoners who were hanging by their arms. Kurnaz's story fits a pattern.

And of course, there's the even bigger point you seem to be ignoring...he was found to be innocent after six months by the intelligence services, and was held in prison for 3 years after that. The DOD, to date, has said nothing about this.

[Gan]

Of course, I expect half the posters here to ignore it.

Unless it comes with photographic or other cooberating evidence, this will apply to me.

Otherwise its just another QQ story.

That being said, I"ll read up on it later when I have more time.

[Durgrimst]

Coming from a person that has deployed and detained Iraq's, they all say they have been mistreated or beaten because they know that it will help them to be released. The war on terror is so political now and the enemy knows it, so they use it to there advantage. Whenever these stories come up, most of the time they are rushed through the process and released early, and it is not uncommon for us to get evidence later that shows they need to be detained all over again, And it is a huge pain in the ass.

[Parkbandit]

We should just take this guy's word for it... because no one would ever make up a story like this. No detainee would ever say they were tortured.. even though they weren't.

[ClydeR]

Of course, what the DOD says must be right...except:



And of course, there's the even bigger point you seem to be ignoring...he was found to be innocent after six months by the intelligence services, and was held in prison for 3 years after that. The DOD, to date, has said nothing about this.

It reminds me of Red (Morgan Freeman) from the Shawshank Redemption, who said, "Everyone's innocent in here." You've got to keep in mind that most people in prison who say they are innocent are actually guilty.

Contrary to the conclusion that you might draw from the 60 Minutes story, Kurnaz was not found innocent, even when he was released. He is writing a book, and the 60 Minutes interview will generate a lot of sales.

[Clove]

It reminds me of Red (Morgan Freeman) from the Shawshank Redemption, who said, "Everyone's innocent in here." You've got to keep in mind that most people in prison who say they are innocent are actually guilty.Because (even if most prisoners are guilty) noone in prison was ever mistakenly found guilty.


Contrary to the conclusion that you might draw from the 60 Minutes story, Kurnaz was not found innocent, even when he was released. He is writing a book, and the 60 Minutes interview will generate a lot of sales.He certainly wasn't found guilty of anything either. God love you ClydeR- nobody else will.

[BigWorm]

Even if he's guilty (which doesn't even seem to be the case), the U.S. is not supposed to be using torture.

[Clove]

Even if he's guilty (which doesn't even seem to be the case), the U.S. is not supposed to be using torture.Shame on you, torture is okay. As long as you're really, really sure they're guilty of something important.

[BigWorm]

Shame on you, torture is okay. As long as you're really, really sure they're guilty of something important.

The best part is that even if they're innocent, they'll still confess since they WILL DO ANYTHING TO STOP THE TORTURE.

[Back]

Illegal detention and torture by the US is a downward spiral into anarchy.

[ClydeR]

The best part is that even if they're innocent, they'll still confess since they WILL DO ANYTHING TO STOP THE TORTURE.

I think that is probably true. Historically, many people who were not guilty of crime confessed anyway when they were tortured. Even John McCain eventually gave in to his torturers in Vietnam and signed the 'confession' that they wrote for him.

But Kurnaz never confessed, according to the 60 Minutes story. That must mean he was never asked to confess under torture.

The coercive interrogation techniques, which may amount to torture, that our military has used on illegal combatants have been aimed at gaining intelligence information to stop terrorism. Those techniques have not been used for the purpose of obtaining confessions for the purpose of prosecuting the detainees. I bet we all agree that prosecuting the detainees is not the primary aim of the military.

[septus]

I think that is probably true. Historically, many people who were not guilty of crime confessed anyway when they were tortured. Even John McCain eventually gave in to his torturers in Vietnam and signed the 'confession' that they wrote for him.

But Kurnaz never confessed, according to the 60 Minutes story. That must mean he was never asked to confess under torture.

The coercive interrogation techniques, which may amount to torture, that our military has used on illegal combatants have been aimed at gaining intelligence information to stop terrorism. Those techniques have not been used for the purpose of obtaining confessions for the purpose of prosecuting the detainees. I bet we all agree that prosecuting the detainees is not the primary aim of the military.

That is a good point. How can someone not break after being detained and tortured for 3+ years and not start spouting out any kind of BS you can to get out.

Guess you'll have to read the book and find out!

[Kembal]

ClydeR must be a parody, right? Right? Because no one, in their right mind, could say the below....


I think that is probably true. Historically, many people who were not guilty of crime confessed anyway when they were tortured. Even John McCain eventually gave in to his torturers in Vietnam and signed the 'confession' that they wrote for him.

But Kurnaz never confessed, according to the 60 Minutes story. That must mean he was never asked to confess under torture.

This is where reading comprehension helps. Not only does he say that he was asked repeatedly under torture questions about Al-Qaida, the Taliban, and Osama Bin Laden, but it's also reported in the story that the military asked him to sign a confession on the day of his release, which he refused.

And secondly, not confessing != never being asked to confess. That has to be one of the most illogical things I've seen ClydeR say.


The coercive interrogation techniques, which may amount to torture, that our military has used on illegal combatants have been aimed at gaining intelligence information to stop terrorism. Those techniques have not been used for the purpose of obtaining confessions for the purpose of prosecuting the detainees. I bet we all agree that prosecuting the detainees is not the primary aim of the military.

Might want to tell that to the military prosecutors. In the story, they detail that they made up charges against him just to prosecute him on something.

[LMingrone]

Of course, I expect half the posters here to ignore it.


I like most all of your posts Kembal, but is that part really necessary?

What about the little kid(s) that died today in awhatever part of this world because of neglect? Are you ignoring that? Are we all ignoring that? I mean things like this have been going on forever. Most of us who have any heart aren't ignoring it. We just don't know what to do about it. Tell us what we can do.

I like reading stories I haven't heard before, and I'm glad you shared it. You seem very condesending though.

[Clove]

Illegal detention and torture by the US is a downward spiral into anarchy.http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-dog-pictures-emo-pug.jpg

[Back]

http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-dog-pictures-emo-pug.jpg

http://pics.bikerag.com/Uploads/data/500/258Troll_spray.jpg

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

http://pics.bikerag.com/Uploads/data/500/258Troll_spray.jpg

http://healthek.com/shampoos5/naturelle-cba.jpg Because even dirtbags wash their hair.

[Clove]

http://pics.bikerag.com/Uploads/data/500/258Troll_spray.jpg

http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/funny-dog-pictures-schocked-innocent-dog.jpg

[Back]

I guess you would know since you wash it twice a day. :)

[Back]

Stooping to the lowest common denominator is not what the US is “supposed” to be about.

Sure, we can fun around on a message board. Take our little pokes here and there. On topic, I do not think lowering American ideals gets America, or anyone, ahead.

[sst]

I'm just curious here, how many people who are talking as if they know something have real experience with;

A. Interrogations?

B. Arabs and their views on honesty?

C. Interrogations with Arabs?

[Clove]

I'm just curious here, how many people who are talking as if they know something have real experience with;

A. Interrogations?

B. Arabs and their views on honesty?

C. Interrogations with Arabs?I'm trying to fathom the line you're taking here. One need not be a gourmet to deem cannibalism wrong. And one need not be an expert in interrogation to deem torture wrong.

[Keller]

I'm trying to fathom the line you're taking here. One need not be a gourmet to deem cannibalism wrong. And one need not be an expert in interrogation to deem torture wrong.


What if a gourmet deems cannibalism right?

[Back]

I'm just curious here, how many people who are talking as if they know something have real experience with;

A. Interrogations?

B. Arabs and their views on honesty?

C. Interrogations with Arabs?

A. None.

B. I once talked a stall merchant down on the price of his hooka and did not even give him a gift afterwards. True story.

C. None.

[Keller]

I didn't answer Dave's query because he requested responses from those "who are talking as if they know something" and it is clear that I not only know everything, but talk as though I know everything as well.

[Latrinsorm]

How did the guy born in Germany to Turkish parents become an Arab? That's a neat trick.

[sst]

your're right lan, I should have put persons of middle eastern decent

[ClydeR]

This is where reading comprehension helps. Not only does he say that he was asked repeatedly under torture questions about Al-Qaida, the Taliban, and Osama Bin Laden, but it's also reported in the story that the military asked him to sign a confession on the day of his release, which he refused.

And secondly, not confessing != never being asked to confess. That has to be one of the most illogical things I've seen ClydeR say.

I didn't say he was not asked to confess. I said he was not asked to confess under torture. If he had been asked to confess under torture, then eventually he would have confessed.

You are correct that he claims in the article that he was tortured. As I said previously, there is no evidence that he is telling the truth.


Might want to tell that to the military prosecutors. In the story, they detail that they made up charges against him just to prosecute him on something.

No. The military prosecutors did not say that they made up charges against Kurnaz. That claim was made by Kurnaz's attorney.

Much of the anger about this subject comes from our government's stubborn insistence that it does not engage in "torture." We all know that's not true. It's based on a tortured definition of "torture." If the President wants to improve his public approval, he should tell the people the truth. We torture people whom we suspect of having knowledge that can save the lives of our citizens. Sometimes when we do that, we will make mistakes, because we are all fallible. But there is no reliable proof that Kurnaz was one of those mistakes.

According to the President, the CIA's interrogation program has prevented terrorist attacks. The values question that we should ask ourselves is whether or not it's worth it. To answer that question, we need to know how many people have been tortured, what the torture consists of, what standard is used to select people for torture, and exactly how many and what sort of attacks have been prevented. The CIA cannot answer those questions for the public without diminishing the value of the program. That leaves us to trust the President. It would be a lot easier for most people to trust him if they didn't believe he was lying about the word "torture."

So says Clyde, the voice of reason.

[Parkbandit]

I'm just curious here, how many people who are talking as if they know something have real experience with;

A. Interrogations?

B. Arabs and their views on honesty?

C. Interrogations with Arabs?

That's the same stupid argument that always gets shot down. "How can you judge abortions if you've never been pregnant" "How can you judge black people since you've never been black"

It's a really stupid argument in all cases.

[Durgrimst]

I think that torture is acceptable. Who here wouldn't torture someone if it had a chance to stop 9/11. I may be in the minority, but I feel that it is acceptable to harm one person to keep 1,000 safe. It is not like coalition forces go into random houses and just detain people. Any one that is detained is either suspected of an involvement of insurgency, or associated with people that are. And as far as I am concerned, if you sit there and let someone plant an IED or set up a sniper hide on your roof, you are just as guilty as the person that is doing the act itself, and anything that happens to you is completely acceptable. Every town in Iraq has hotlines just like dialing 911 on your phone that is manned around the clock and coalition forces are on standby to investigate anything that is reported. If you are guilty, or guilty be association, you deserve all you get.

Now flame all you want, but I don't believe for a second that if you found out that one of your loved ones was having there murder plotted, you wouldn't do anything you could to save them. Anyone that says differently is sitting on a podium and has never actually experienced it in their life.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I agree Durgrimst, and that's why war is hell, as the saying goes.

[Gan]

I guess I have always had the expectation that if I take up arms against another group of people (country, etc.) that if I'm caught - I'm fair game. I mean seriously - they're trying to kill me to begin with right?

Its kind of wierd to think that you can have or attempt to have a civilized war. How civilized can you be when you bomb, shoot, etc. your armed enemy? Not to mention expecting them to play by the same 'rules'.

I mean come on, its a war for fucks sake. If we want it civilized then we would require all of our politicians to fight the first round in person. ;)

[Daniel]

I'm just curious here, how many people who are talking as if they know something have real experience with;

A. Interrogations?

B. Arabs and their views on honesty?

C. Interrogations with Arabs?

Yes.

Yes.

and Yes.

[Daniel]

I think that torture is acceptable. Who here wouldn't torture someone if it had a chance to stop 9/11. I may be in the minority, but I feel that it is acceptable to harm one person to keep 1,000 safe. It is not like coalition forces go into random houses and just detain people.

Actually, we do.

[Daniel]

I guess I have always had the expectation that if I take up arms against another group of people (country, etc.) that if I'm caught - I'm fair game. I mean seriously - they're trying to kill me to begin with right?

Its kind of wierd to think that you can have or attempt to have a civilized war. How civilized can you be when you bomb, shoot, etc. your armed enemy? Not to mention expecting them to play by the same 'rules'.

I mean come on, its a war for fucks sake. If we want it civilized then we would require all of our politicians to fight the first round in person. ;)


I agree with you. However, allow me to play devil's advocate here: This guy wasn't in the "war". He was minding his business in another country.

Slight difference there.

[Gan]

I agree with you. However, allow me to play devil's advocate here: This guy wasn't in the "war". He was minding his business in another country.

Slight difference there.

Good point.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Good point.

Not necessarily. World has gotten a lot smaller with technology than it was 10, 20 or 50 years ago.

[Warriorbird]

So let's just torture anybody! We're totally different from the terrorists then.

[Daniel]

Not necessarily. World has gotten a lot smaller with technology than it was 10, 20 or 50 years ago.

Yes, technology has gotten to the point where someone minding his own business is capable of destroying a major metropolitan area.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Yes, technology has gotten to the point where someone minding his own business is capable of destroying a major metropolitan area.

Only white people can destroy major metropolitan areas where black people live. Dur.

[Gan]

Yes, technology has gotten to the point where someone minding his own business is capable of destroying a major metropolitan area.

Especially if you're gay with laser beam installations focused on large metro areas with statues of Jesus just hanging around.

[Daniel]

Only white people can destroy major metropolitan areas where black people live. Dur.

Someone has penis envy.

[Daniel]

Especially if you're gay with laser beam installations focused on large metro areas with statues of Jesus just hanging around.

Win.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Someone has penis envy.

xxxx please. Someone has white envy.

[Daniel]

Nah. I'm half white. That's all you need for good credit.

[Durgrimst]

Nah. I'm half white. That's all you need for good credit.

New Winner, LOL.

[Sthrockmorton]

I agree with you. However, allow me to play devil's advocate here: This guy wasn't in the "war". He was minding his business in another country.

Slight difference there.

If you live in a country that's at war, you're no longer minding your own business and you are susceptible to danger. If you don't want to be at risk, move to Canada.

On the original post, freedom isn't free, and after terrorists have attacked the US, someone has to get their hands dirty to try to maintain our security. I'm not the one doing the dirty work, so I'm not going to begin to pretend I know whether any of this is right or wrong. Yes, it's a sob story for this guy if it is true (I watched the 60 minutes episode last night). Unfortunately, we'll never know fact from fiction on the matter.

[Kembal]

I like most all of your posts Kembal, but is that part really necessary?

What about the little kid(s) that died today in awhatever part of this world because of neglect? Are you ignoring that? Are we all ignoring that? I mean things like this have been going on forever. Most of us who have any heart aren't ignoring it. We just don't know what to do about it. Tell us what we can do.

I like reading stories I haven't heard before, and I'm glad you shared it. You seem very condesending though.

Eh. It was part challenge and part anger over the story. And the last time I posted a story about Administration lawbreaking, it got like 5 replies.

[Daniel]

If you live in a country that's at war, you're no longer minding your own business and you are susceptible to danger. If you don't want to be at risk, move to Canada.



2 problems here.

1. He wasn't in a country at war. He lived in Germany. He was visiting Pakistan. Neither is at war with the US.

2. Moving to Canada sounds nice and all, but let's not forget about something called immigration laws. Something I doubt you're in favor of loosening. The thing that really galls me about the US? The fact that we won't even allow those who have *helped* us into the country.

[Durgrimst]

2. Moving to Canada sounds nice and all, but let's not forget about something called immigration laws. Something I doubt you're in favor of loosening. The thing that really galls me about the US? The fact that we won't even allow those who have *helped* us into the country.

Actually we do, My dad just got back from Afghanistan about 2 weeks ago and brought his interpreter back to the US with him. My father is a Colonel in the Air Force and is now helping him get citizenship while his family lives in my house. I think it's pretty cool, but my Mom was not too happy about the idea.

[Warriorbird]

SOMETIMES we do.

[Daniel]

Actually we do, My dad just got back from Afghanistan about 2 weeks ago and brought his interpreter back to the US with him. My father is a Colonel in the Air Force and is now helping him get citizenship while his family lives in my house. I think it's pretty cool, but my Mom was not too happy about the idea.

Let me know when his citizenship paperwork actually goes through.

Reference:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/22/AR2008032202228.html

[Arkans]

If you live in a country that's at war, you're no longer minding your own business and you are susceptible to danger. If you don't want to be at risk, move to Canada.

On the original post, freedom isn't free, and after terrorists have attacked the US, someone has to get their hands dirty to try to maintain our security. I'm not the one doing the dirty work, so I'm not going to begin to pretend I know whether any of this is right or wrong. Yes, it's a sob story for this guy if it is true (I watched the 60 minutes episode last night). Unfortunately, we'll never know fact from fiction on the matter.


YEEHAW! Damn right freedom ain't free! These colors don't run! I'm a real 'mercan! Let's get them there camel jockies!

Fighting a war against an idealogy is just a bad fucking move in the first place, but regardless, how does torture maintain security? I know if I was innocent, tortured, and released, I'd be a lot more apt to support an extremist cause afterwards.

- Arkans

[Clove]

Fighting a war against an idealogy is just a bad fucking move in the first place...- ArkansWhat, like Slavery, Taxation without Representation, Fascism?

[BigWorm]

What, like Slavery, Taxation without Representation, Fascism?

Don't be ridiculous, Clove. America has never bad a mistake.

[Kembal]

Actually we do, My dad just got back from Afghanistan about 2 weeks ago and brought his interpreter back to the US with him. My father is a Colonel in the Air Force and is now helping him get citizenship while his family lives in my house. I think it's pretty cool, but my Mom was not too happy about the idea.

It'll take a really long time for the interpreter to even get his green card, unless some member of Congress does something. It's currently taking about 8 months for spouses of U.S. citizens to get their green cards, and that's the fastest category.

[AnticorRifling]

I thought military service was the fastest way to gain citizenship? If it's not it should be.

[Durgrimst]

Well I understand that, but this guy has a leg up considering he has a Top Secret clearance and served in Afghanistan for a couple years as a Senior Interpreter. But, once he is a legal alien he will be able to get a great paying job with any American terp agency.

[Clove]

Well I understand that, but this guy has a leg up considering he has a Top Secret clearance and served in Afghanistan for a couple years as a Senior Interpreter. But, once he is a legal alien he will be able to get a great paying job with any American terp agency.

I wonder how he pulled that off (sincerely) unless Afghanistan isn't considered a country that uses physical or mental coercion.


(3) Soldier and spouse must not have immediate family members who reside in a country within whose boundaries physical or mental coercion is known to be a common practice, either against persons accused of acting in the interest of the United States, or the relatives of such persons to whom they may reasonably be considered to be bound by ties of affection, kinship, or obligation. Near relatives will also include uncles, aunts, grandparents, father/mother-in-law, and relationships corresponding to any of the above persons as legal guardians or next of kin (AR 630-5 and 37 USC 501).

[Gan]

Don't be ridiculous, Clove. America has never bad a mistake.

:wtf:

[Kembal]

I thought military service was the fastest way to gain citizenship? If it's not it should be.

Serving in the U.S. armed forces, yes, it is the fastest way to get citizenship.

However, this guy Durgamist is referring to an interpreter, and not an enlisted soldier. He first has to get a green card, and then naturalize. Naturalization generally takes 5 years.

If the U.S. military has defined native language interpreters as members of the U.S. armed forces though for the period of this war, then he can apply immediately for naturalization without need for a green card. I doubt this is the case.

(I was on the Immigration Services website checking the status of my wife's visa, so wasn't hard to look this up.)

[Durgrimst]

I do not know the exact terms or how to go about it, but high level Terps have clearances because they sit in on meetings that are secret, and are also allowed into the Intel rooms, and work with HET in the Marines which everything they do is TS. I do however know for a fact that there are many different levels of clearances and types, secret, top secret, PRP, and so on.....

[Daniel]

Well I understand that, but this guy has a leg up considering he has a Top Secret clearance and served in Afghanistan for a couple years as a Senior Interpreter. But, once he is a legal alien he will be able to get a great paying job with any American terp agency.

Did you read the article I posted?

[Durgrimst]

No, was it in this thread?

[Daniel]

I do not know the exact terms or how to go about it, but high level Terps have clearances because they sit in on meetings that are secret, and are also allowed into the Intel rooms, and work with HET in the Marines which everything they do is TS. I do however know for a fact that there are many different levels of clearances and types, secret, top secret, PRP, and so on.....

Confidential, Secret and Top Secret.

Also, the military is very loose with clearences in Iraq and Afghanistan due to operational requirements. He may be able to sit in on meetings, but that doesn't mean he has an appropriate clearence. Which in and of itself is no guarantee of citizenship.

[Daniel]

Yea: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032202228.html

[Durgrimst]

From my deployment experiences, it is somewhat loose, but still strict enough to be a pain in the ass. When Iraqi Army/Police commanders come visit for meeting we have to take down all our maps, turn off computer monitors, and basically strip the COC's, and then put them back together 20 minutes later when the meeting is over. And I also know or a fact that they do research the individuals before they can become terps, and there is some form of clearance, because some terps are allowed to information that most are not.

[Clove]

Yea: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032202228.htmlError.

[Daniel]

Error.

My bad: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/22/AR2008032202228.html

[sst]

Foreign nationals can not have access to information classified above Secret under any circumstances, and there are very strict guidelines that govern what information can and will be shared with those personnel.

As to comments about the military being easy on who has access to classified material in Iraq, that isn't true, if you're chain of command over there allowed uncleared personnel access to classified information you should report that information to either the FBI or that branch of the military's Counterintelligence offices. It is required by UCMJ (for those in the military) and US Code for those outside who hold a security clearance of any sort.

[Daniel]

Yea.