Now Jews are the problem...

[Jesuit]

JERUSALEM – Sen. Barack Obama's military adviser and national campaign co-chairman has implied U.S. politicians are afraid of Jewish voters in Miami and New York City and that American Jews are the "problem" impeding a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Merrill A. McPeak, a former Air Force chief of staff, also compared the Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist organizations to what he described as religious radicals in Oregon and claimed "born-again [Christians]" supported the war in Iraq to help Israel.

Discussing Middle East politics during a 2003 interview with the Oregonian newspaper McPeak stated, "We don't have a playbook for the Middle East. You know, for instance, obviously, a part of that long-term strategy would be getting the Israelis and the Palestinians together at . . .something other than a peace process. Process is not a substitute for achievement or settlement. And even so the process has gone off the tracks, but the process isn't enough."

The Oregonian interviewer asked McPeak whether the problem in solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict originated with the White House or the State Department.

"So where's the problem?" the interviewer asked.

McPeak replied, "New York City. Miami. We have a large vote – vote, here in favor of Israel. And no politician wants to run against it."

McPeak went on to insist that to solve the conflict, Israelis must "stop settling the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and maybe even withdraw some of the settlements that've already been put there. And nobody wants to take on that problem. It's just too tough politically."

McPeak did not point to Palestinian terrorism or the recent election of Hamas to power as problems impeding an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal.

As a follow-up question, the Oregonian interviewer asked McPeak whether "there's an element within Hamas, Hezbollah, that doesn't want Israel to exist at all and always will be there?"

McPeak responded by comparing the two terror groups to "radical" Oregonians.

"There's an element in Oregon, you know, that's always going to be radical in some pernicious way, and likely to clothe it in religious garments, so it makes it harder to attack. So there's craziness all over the place."

McPeak said there was "some" good will toward peace on the Israeli side, but qualified, "that's maybe the more cosmopolitan, liberal version of the Israeli population – I think there's enough good will there.

"I don't know if there is still on the Palestinian side, because they've been radicalized pretty well," McPeak said.

The McPeak interview circulated on several large blogs yesterday, including the popular Powerline blog, after it was first pointed out in the American Spectator online magazine by Robert Goldberg, a writer and vice president of the Center for Medicine in the Public Interest.

Interpreting the identity of voters in Miami and NYC McPeak had referred to, Goldberg stated: "Translation (as if it's needed): Jews – who put Israel over every American interest – control America's policy on the Middle East."

Goldberg also pointed out McPeak once claimed Christian Zionists were driving America's policy in Iraq to benefit Israel.

Stated McPeak while discussing the Iraq war: "Let's say that one of your abiding concerns is the security of Israel as opposed to a purely American self-interest, then it would make sense to build a dozen or so bases in Iraq. Let's say you are a born-again Christian and you think that Armageddon and the rapture are about to happen any minute and what you want to do is retrace steps you think are laid out in Revelations, then it makes sense . So there are a number of scenarios here that could lead you in this direction. This is radical...."

McPeak is the latest Obama adviser to be highlighted for controversial views regarding Israel.

WND recently quoted Israeli security officials who expressed "concern" about Robert Malley, an adviser to Obama who has advocated negotiations with Hamas and providing international assistance to the terrorist group

Also Samantha Power, who was described as Obama's closest adviser until she resigned earlier this month after making strong remarks against Sen. Hillary Clinton, advocated in an interview investing "billions of dollars, not in servicing Israel's military, but actually investing in the state of Palestine."

Stated Goldberg: "Obama has a Jewish problem and McPeak's bigoted views are emblematic of what they are. Obama can issue all the boilerplate statements supporting Israel's right to defend itself he wants. But until he accepts responsibility for allowing people like McPeak so close to his quest for the presidency, Obama's sincerity and judgment will remain open questions."


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59920

[Some Rogue]

/facepalm

[Some Rogue]

Discussing Middle East politics during a 2003 interview...

McPeak did not point to Palestinian terrorism or the recent election of Hamas to power

Maybe he didn't discuss that election because it came after 2003?

[Jesuit]

Maybe he didn't discuss that election because it came after 2003?

Yeah I thought stating the obvious was a bit redundant. But the author's name is Aaron Klein, he's probably just a typical Jewish man.

[Back]

Jes·u·it [jezh-oo-it, jez-oo-, jez-yoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a member of a Roman Catholic religious order (Society of Jesus) founded by Ignatius of Loyola in 1534.
2. (often lowercase) a crafty, intriguing, or equivocating person: so called in allusion to the methods ascribed to the order by its opponents.
–adjective

[Stanley Burrell]

Every single notion of preemptive striking this administration has dished out in waves of bullshit could be applied with infinite amounts of truth towards Israel protecting herself against a small, yet loud group of incediary attention whores.

That being said, I think it's a piss-poor comparison to somehow compare Moshe Liebowitz of law firm X in The U.S. to IDF soldier Y. Somewhere, there's a difference in the gradation of Jews where it goes from, say, going to Temple in The City once a year and celebrating commercialized Christmas (here in The States) to "Hold my rifle while I take a piss." -- And I believe very strongly that anyone who believes that piece placement warfare can beat a guerrilla insurgency is smoking crack. Sharon sort of knew what he was doing by bulldozing, which was very douchebaggy, yet effective... But unless you flatten terrain with carpet bombing not seen since the days of Dresden; non-specific to infrastructure, the fundamental cockroaches will find more holes to fit into. Which is why for the sake of fucking appearances we need talks, godammit. Palestinians are suffering more because of Palestinians, independently of world perception and actions, now more so than ever. Anything can and will be a peace offering.

I don't really like the idea that Obama's "military adviser" (although I believe this to be a lot of painted bullshit) has this supposed view, which is odd, especially considering Obama's aggressive stance towards Afghanistan + N. Pakistan. No one should be thinking that there is either no dichotomy or a 100% non-distinctive truth between outside-of-Israel/Palestine Diaspora (support) for Israel between American Jews, and that only country boundaries separate these individuals. That's an origin of racism if ever there was one. NYCity-goers are some of the most open-minded people in the world -- You didn't have Phelps petitioning The U.S. to rid itself of gays as much as you did the constant freedom of Islamic assembly to denounce American barbarism on various street corners throughout NYC just weeks within the 9-11 events.

If anyone wants to post more info pertaining to Obama's military adviser, I'd be highly interested in that information. What exactly is the influence/recognition of a military adviser for a presidential nominee, not yet in office anyway? My highly-skeptical mind is definitely thinking that this is a straw-grasping attempt on par with the colorful Wright = Obama campaigns still leeching onto contemporary politics.

Edited to Add: Obama's made some very positive statements involving his support of Israel. I'm gonna get really speculative here: I believe this to be an attempt at phobic fearmongering brought to you by the same crowd who continues to search Wikipedia in order find the missing link between Barack Obama and Bin Laden. And that crowd would be bags of debauched semen depository donors in their usual subhuman form.

[Kembal]

Yeah I thought stating the obvious was a bit redundant. But the author's name is Aaron Klein, he's probably just a typical Jewish man.

Somehow, I don't think you got Some Rogue's point.

[Back]

I’ll wager that Biden is involved after Obama wins. And thats a good thing.

[Daniel]

This is hardly some crack pot theory. The father of "Realist" Theory wrote an entire book on it.

[Stanley Burrell]

This is hardly some crack pot theory. The father of "Realist" Theory wrote an entire book on it.

Which part?

[Daniel]

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374177724

[Stanley Burrell]

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374177724

Oh, definitely, there is a lot of literature like that. And it makes you think, which is good.

I honestly think that if the comparison is on Oregonians, maybe an analogy should also be drawn on the difference between radical... Oregonians, versus militant Palestinians armed with Katushas. McVeigh honestly didn't have shit on the active blindness that has been plaguing Palestine. And in all honesty, neither did the WTC bombers. Some of these guys aren't even alive, by the bio-definition of how heavily they disregard self-preservation, a fundamental facet of homeostasis.

I dare anyone to read equal and opposite literature about the Grand Mufti-to-present day Palestine before they "fight the power" with sheer one-sidedness.

Non-biased education can benefit Palestine so tremendously by using wit over force to battle its ugly innards that any amount of money, supervised to bring schooling about, could and should be monitored in order to sow the seeds of peace to the region itself. There's a lot of doublespeak and Palestine's neighbors, not only being Israel, need to address the issues of allowing immigration and shelter to a people fucked over by a few of its ugly inhabitants.

Ultimately, people who blame Israel are blaming The Jews, whether or not they know it. They have their reasons, but I don't think their reasons are very reasonable, albeit facists of unadulterated racism, or the most scholarly efforts of singularly pointing a finger at Israel. Especially now. You can play the same realism blame-game at some notion of over-support of Israel as you can for non-support.

Currently, if we exchanged the powers that be of Israel's oligarchy with prominent leaders of West Bank, then I'd be pretty sure you could still tout a realism argument, but I'd suggest you start digging foxholes into the Earth's mantle first.

This would all be that much more moot and unmentioned if we hadn't elected a president who managed to polarize Israel from first world nations of Europe, beginning to sow their own seeds of racism in abject mob mentality.

Israel cannot want peace for the Palestinians -- Albeit a notion of peace for Palestine's militant fanatics and/or basic citizens; this has to fall on the shoulders of Palestinians themselves no matter what, for the first time in their lives, Palestine will have to come to terms that equality is not begot by simply refraining from comments by certain military inhabitants that populate it denying The State of Israel existence; and you know what, if it's not meant to be, Palestine will continue to cave in on itself because of itself, regardless of how much this anti-Semetic world points fingers at Israel and "The Jews."

In a sick way that will never be appreciated, many Arab Israelis and West Bank dwellers could very well be lucky Israel isn't a Lebanon fighting its own internal struggle with unbias. Very lucky.

Saudi Arabia originated Islam. All of non-subsaharan Africa is a wealthier home for distraught (Islamic) Arabs on this account, IMHO, with that much more cultural housewarming than if Moroccan Jews, i.e., decided to offshoot. The infatuation with Israel, this tiny piece of nothing in a pool of sand is absurd. People are just angry and like to blame the Jews. I don't blame people for being people, but the sooner the Judeochristian world realizes the truth that Jews don't control the media, money, etc., the better we can be at fighting our own subconscious prejudices.

I'm still not sure what realism, idealism, or surrealism has to do with a lot of this, but I think that Plato and Aristotle, and mos' def The Cheng Brothers, are the first founders of realism and the idea of concrete forms.

What's your take, specifically, on realism, and how do you feel it relates to Israel/Palestine and everything in between, Daniel?

[Daniel]

I don't really want to type up my impressions of Israel\Palestine right now.

So..

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=2331878851

Reflections on a trip to the Holy land.


At some point in every person's childhood there will be a time when that person wishes to emulate someone of something that they see or experience in the world. Some times these childhood aspirations fade away and die and in others they become the basis for the path that one may take in life. For me, one such experience was watching the the fist Palestinian infatidah or uprising.
I didn't really know what was going on, but the sense of respect I had for the Israeli's as they battled the aggressive Palestinians against all odds was indescribable. For years, I idolized the courage that the Israeli's displayed in defending their homeland and I would I try to emulate that same dedication and resolve in everything I would do. I mean, it takes a real set of balls to go after a tank with a few rocks.

--

Obviously, I had it all completely ass backwards. It's embarrassing to admit that I spent a large portion of my life idolizing something that was completely wrong. It wasn't the Israeli's with the stones, they had the tanks and vice versa. I look back on it now and I guess I can understand why I thought the way I did. I was only four years old at the time and the coverage of the events wasn't exactly unbiased. I can justify that all I want, but the sad part is that I never really took the time to re-evaluate my position. Even after I realized how wrong I was, I still would have told you I fully supported Israel and all of its' policies and I certainly didn't question the US' position.

Who cared if I had a few minor details off? It didn't change the fundamental issue of Israel needing to protect itself from Arab aggression. Even as I became more and more exposed to the issues and realized that things weren't as black and white as they were presented, I still didn't even really believe that things were as bad as some people made it out to be.

It wasn't until I went there and saw for myself the consequences of my apathy first hand, that I truly realized how tragic my complacency in regards to these issues was.

It really hit me when I was talking to a woman about her experiences over the last 6 years. We had found ourselves in front her house after a day long journey that began at the Bethelem Peace Center, which coincidently happens to be a converted Israeli prison a stone's throw away from the Church of Nativity, Aka where Jesus was born.

Israel has begun building a security “fence” which can be better identified as a 30 foot concrete barrier throughout the occupied Palestinian territories. As we were looking at some of the artwork that had been put on the wall by the local population, a woman approached us and asked if we would like some coffee. She lived down the block and wasn't used to seeing a lot of tourists walking around this particular neighborhood. So, we went to her house it was a nice enough place except for the fact that it was somehow surrounded on 3 sides by the Israeli security fence. Which is perplexing considering that her house was situated on the major thoroughfare in Bethlehem, but more on that later.

The story this woman would tell would become somewhat a recurrent theme as I talked to more and more people throughout my trip. Her house was adjacent to the shop that her and her husband had owned. After struggling to maintain their business in a dying economy for 6 years they had no choice but to close down. It's hard to maintain a business when there is a thirty foot wall right in front of the entrance. However, because of the restrictions on relocations imposed on Palestinians, they found it impossible to relocate their home and their business. Even if they had managed to get such an approval, it is unlikely that it would have been worthwhile as the amount of Palestinians able to afford such services are virtually nil as everyone else is struggling to keep their head above the water just as much as they were.

Therein lies the major issue with this security “fence”. You'll never catch me questioning the necessity of having to provide security for your own citizens. On the surface, it makes perfect sense to want to interdict the movements of those who wish harm on your citizens.

However, you have to ask yourself why is this fence running through the heart of a town that doesn't contain any of your citizens? How does a wall in Bethelem protect the citizen's of Tel Aviv? I'll save you the time of having to decipher that logic; it doesn't. With or without this wall, the citizens of Tel Aviv are just as secure or insecure as they have always been.

So what is this wall accomplishing? Well for one, it is effectively strangling the Palestinian population in place. For this woman it took 20-25 minutes and a drive across town to visit her uncle that lived across the street, and I used to think driving through L.A in the daytime was ridiculous. Palestinians are often denied access to most major roadway systems, especially in areas that are linked with Israeli towns or settlements. The result is that it takes an hour and half to get to Jerusalem from Ramallah, which in reality is only a 10 minute drive away.

I wish I could say that this was an isolated incident or an unfortunate side effect of a necessary policy, but it's not. My friend Hammad, an American Citizen, is unable to go visit his family from here in Egypt without first flying to Jordan and then taking the only entrance that is authorized for Palestinian entry into the West Bank. His uncle Nasser was detained for 32 days for trying to visit his wife, and by the way, he also happens to be a successful business owner in the United States who has never even lived in the West Bank. For the millions of refugees that were created by Israel when they occupied the Palestinian territories the situation is even worse. They are not allowed to leave the country, own land and are often not allowed to continue their education past the secondary level.

But let me ease up a second. If you've managed to read this far, then I want you ask yourself an honest and heartfelt question. Would we tolerate this sort of behavior here in America? Would it be socially acceptable under any circumstances for the state of Mississippi to construct a wall around Biloxi or the City of Chicago around the Robert Taylor homes? Would the residents of San Diego stand idly by if they had to drive through Nevada to reach L.A?

I'm sure the instant response from some would be that this isn't an American issue , this is an Israeli issue. I'd have to say you are wrong. After all, Israel is the single largest recipient of US Direct foreign assistance, by far. If the trends for private assistance hold true for Israel then they receive a substantial sum more than the 9 billion we give them every year. To put it in perspective, the amount we send to Israel for military hardware in equipment is more than the total amount that the next largest military, Egypt, spends for its entire budget. This is in addition to the fact that the Israeli Army has almost unfettered access to US military technology and equipment. If I told you that I was happy to see 17 year old girls walking through downtown Jerusalem with the same equipment that you have to sleep with someone to get in the US Army, I'd be lying.

I guess that's what made it worse for me. It's sad seeing what is happening to these people in Palestine, but on the whole it's no worse than the things I've seen in places like Iraq and Sierra Leone. However, the difference is that We, America, are not just letting this happen, as abhorrent as I would find that anyway. The fact, is that we are not only supporting these things to happen but we are facilitating it. As a person who has fought in the name of Democracy and freedom for the United States, it's a kick in the nuts to see first hand that elsewhere in the world we are doing everything in our power to stifle it.

I'm not asking you to take my word for it, because it's not as simple as some would make it out to be. There is no denying that Israel is our ally and that it does indeed have the right to protect itself. Even still, we have to ask ourselves what is sufficient to accomplish these goals and what in the end is the morally right thing to do. If you have honestly come to a different conclusion than I, than that is fine. I am perfectly willing to accept your position and defend mine if necessary.

However, to form an honest opinion we have to know the reality of the situation and not just what is being presented to us. For example, the issue often turns to that of Islamic extremism and the success of such religious parties as Hamas, but no one ever mentions that approximately 20% of the Palestinian population is Christian. Which, by the way, includes the woman I spoke about earlier.

Unfortunately, in America we simply are not taking the time to ask ourselves these questions. As the largest and most ardent supporter of Israel, this is our duty. We have to remember that being American does not make us morally right, but that by being American we have the obligation to be morally right.

[Stanley Burrell]

You know... I guess whoever wrote this believes the wall of concrete is still being built into the green zones. That's really weird. That was a big mistake and it was ameliorated (halted.) I think it was ugly on the part of Israel. Even if it didn't intersect Palestinian farm crops/territory.

I went to SUNY Purchase and believe you me I learned about the wall. Speaking of which, I think it's extremely sad (but not surprising) that Jordan or especially Egypt's continuous fencing somehow manages to continue avoiding the Jew-owned media :rolleyes:

I believe someone touting the wall argument now, especially since its halt -- In the midst of continuous quadrant placement by Arab nations surrounding Palestine is wholly problematic because it actually does a fine job at illustrating what people are willing to regurgitate, yet unwilling to recognize.

Eventually, Bush should step out of the Oval Office and 97% of the world will hate symbols of Westernism as opposed to the usual 99%. It's extremely, extremely moot, not to mention detremental to problem-solving in the region to continue placing all the blame on Israel.

My grandmother was in an Israel when Qassam fire hit for the first time. It completely destroyed part of an Israeli kibbutzim where she was at the time; this was directly prior to the Lebanon War II. My cousins have taken so many potshots from guardposts that it's daily routine. There is only one people, first and foremost, who can end Palestine's trechery: The Palestinians. Ill-perceived preventative measures don't even begin to define Palestinian suffering if any of these such acts had been perpetrated on neighboring Arab nations.

I think anyone who wants to talk about Palestine being fenced in ought to take a good look at demographics and the size of Israel on a map versus its neighbors. I think you need to hear about the stories of Palestinians trying to gain entrance to Egypt, Syria or Lebanon. I want you to think very carefully about how Al-Fatah was handled recently in Lebanon and discuss, in your mind, your perceived notion of Israel's supposed self-flexing and truly try to conceptualize what would be left of Palestine if anything posed as a doppelganger to Arab on Arab (mostly Islamic) violence.

Then blame the Jews.

[Daniel]

You know... I guess whoever wrote this believes the wall of concrete is still being built into the green zones

I wrote that..when I was in Palestine last year. Construction is still ongoing. The Wall is still present and Settlements are still expanding.

[Stanley Burrell]

I wrote that..when I was in Palestine last year.

Where were you that you saw construction crews set up to intersect the green zone. I'd be really interested in knowing this, as it's completely self-deluded. Guard posts = yes. Who was touting the green zone demographics to you?

[Stanley Burrell]

The Wall is still present and Settlements are still expanding.

Settlement expansion is a result of TFR incrementation. You didn't see the wall expanding.

[Daniel]

You may be technically right. The wall project may have stopped. However, I make little distinction between the the actual wall expanding and the expansion of settlements that are against the peace process because they entail the same sort of restrictions.

They also do nothing to change the effects of the sections of the wall that are currently in place.

Ps. I don't know what TFR is, but I doubt it would change my opinion on the expansion of Israeli settlements.

[Stanley Burrell]

Obviously, I had it all completely ass backwards. It's embarrassing to admit that I spent a large portion of my life idolizing something that was completely wrong. It wasn't the Israeli's with the stones, they had the tanks and vice versa.

This part...

If you want to see Israelis throwing stones, try going into a Messianic neighborhood during Shabbos.

Otherwise action and reaction. I can't even imagine how horny the State of Texas would be if a few Mexicans decided to throw firecrackers across the border. Not that any American response within the last several years is exemplary of just force, but when you cross the line, you cross the line.

I think it's very positive that there are Jews like you, Daniel, who are given the freedom to roam in-and-out of Israel into no man's land and feel a sense of objectivity based upon the idea that Israel hampers every effort of true freedom in The Mideast. I see the paradox there. It's bittersweet.

[Daniel]

I'm not Jewish.

and I'd wager that there is a difference between your comparison. The difference being that A) The Palestinians were forcibly removed from their own lands B) The Palestinians are still under a system of Apartheid.

It would be one thing if the Israeli's left well enough alone, but they continue to severely restrict the movement of Palestinians in their own land. They continue to take the Palestinian lands.

In short, your comparison isn't really much of one.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm not Jewish.

and I'd wager that there is a difference between your comparison. The difference being that A) The Palestinians were forcibly removed from their own lands B) The Palestinians are still under a system of Apartheid.

It would be one thing if the Israeli's left well enough alone, but they continue to severely restrict the movement of Palestinians in their own land. They continue to take the Palestinian lands.

In short, your comparison isn't really much of one.

Israel will always exist and shouters of apartheid won't be satisfied until it's pushed into the sea, which is why Israel will always exist. I'm not making a comparison as much as I am a statement that if you want to self-feed a battered mentality, then by all means, do it. It won't change anything: Israel, like each and every neighboring country will continue to exist. Fighting against this is only going to end up hurting The Palestinians -- They are under no ultimatum, only that which they've created for themselves.

I've never seen a building company putting together an industrial, residential, commercial neighborhood and thought to myself "It's time to fight the man by targeting men, women and children of group X."

It exists, it builds and it does what a country does. I think it's weird how most people don't even realize how much more pervasive settlement development was under Netanyahu.

Blame Israel and target innocents; no matter how overtly boisterous as fundamentalism, or dressed up with politics as a feel-good nicety is, it's not going to help the Palestinians (whether or not they're the ones touting the agenda.)

Again, I believe this has to begin with education and that money cannot be embezzled by militant Palestinians before it reaches the formation of a school system. There has to be education. I swear to God the wailing wall is a system of oppression in this day and age.

But yeah, Israel exists and won't go away and if its existence was truly threatened it would equal that of America's sudden indisposition. I want to see some people realize this, with or without a blame the Zionists (Jews) mentality.

[Daniel]

Actually. As I said in what I posted, I don't want Israel pushed into the sea. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

I will say, that I do not condone America supporting the Israeli Military to do the things that they do, nor do I condone America supporting the Israeli government when they wilfullly break UN resolutions when it comes to expansion into Palestine.

The reality is that without US support Israel can not do what it does. It's only a matter of time before America realizes what Israel is doing and Israel reaps the result of that.

[Stanley Burrell]

Actually. As I said in what I posted, I don't want Israel being pushed into the sea. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

I will say, that I do not condone America supporting the Israeli Military to do the things that they do, nor do I condone America supporting the Israeli government when they wilfullly break UN resolutions when it comes to expansion into Palestine.

Period.

The U.N. is becoming The United Arab Emirates. Libya couldn't "realize" the act of an Israeli Arab gunning down a group of schoolchildren as of recent as somehow inspiring terror. The U.N. is a political device in the worst sense possible. Ass-reaming under Blame The Jews is what it officiates. GB II has leeched what good there was in the UN as an independent, objective mechanism and incurred its anti-Israel agenda due to hatred of The West. U.N. resolutions of peace my fucking ass. Apparently, U.N. resolutions are only counted if they haven't been crafted during and before the formation of Israel. It's wordplay. It would be nice if it weren't, but saying "U.N." when Katushas and Qassams are fired at innocents in the manner that they are, or at all, for that matter -- And is not immediately condemned as a whole by the U.N., says a lot about what the U.N. is and what it is not, for now, anyway.

Abiding by the U.N. now, under its premise that it acts as an evenhanded mechanism, yet it fails to acknowledge the value of human life, is why it has been fucked by politics and rendered inept in many of its once-working words-into-action doctrine. I don't know what would have happened had GB II not told the U.N. to basically go fuck itself, but I think it (The U.N.'s) fairness, and lack thereof takes its first steps of rampant anti-Semitism towards The State of Israel. Essentially, flaunting the U.N. will do diddly, and I think this is very much our current regime's problem.

And you might not support Israel being pushed into the sea, but the current leadership party in Palestine does. Israel will continue to exist. It irks Palestinians; before their poverty, before their claims of oppression, before their Death-to-the-Jews sentiment because the people of Palestine lack peaceful education.

Again, you should really read up about The Grand Mufti's own final solution. I look at Israel on a non-skewed map and listen to the news, and I see the hatred of people and fear of what they don't understand multiplied by ten million, not on behalf of The Israelis.

[Stanley Burrell]

The reality is that without US support Israel can not do what it does. It's only a matter of time before America realizes what Israel is doing and Israel reaps the result of that.

As long as we use weapons and fight wars, we will be using a tremendous portion of Israeli-manufactured goods. We will be arms traders until it catches up with us, first, well before it does our subsidiaries. If you think it's simply a Christian Right agenda waiting for their Messiah to appear so that all the Jews of Israel will know they will then suddenly become Christians, you could not be farther from the truth.

What's strange is that the Diaspora can fund Israel (and will) that much more so if this hypothetical realization, as you call it, were ever to take place. One of the greatest things about Israel is how, since the early kibbutzim, is that they have done so much communally for the land -- It boggles the mind in a Capitalist world. If you've road the railways, seen the dairy farms, etc., you know funding is not the root of Israeli success.

Most people don't even know that Israel repays more than just a good bit of its annual trust funds. And most people, I'm certain, believe that Israel would suddenly be as immediately underpowered as Palestine itself if The United States suddenly decided to stop any and all funding towards Israel. It upsets me that people will become so deluded and fixated on some justice scenario of what they feel is the unbreakable un-fuding of Israel that they spend their entire lives garnering hatred at a fucking dot on the map.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm not Jewish.

I could've sworn you had a Magen David tattooed on your wrist, errr?

[Clove]

I'm just curious why anyone WOULDN'T think that Jewish voters in the United States are heavily influential in out Middle East policies?

Cuban voters are certainly heavily influential in our policies concerning Cuba (unless you think our continued amnesty to Cuban defectors that reach US soil is a coincidence).

I imagine Chinese American voters are heavily influential in our relationship with China.

Apparently it's racist to state the obvious or to theorize that a group of voters that are intensely interested in specific policy might be a factor in our success or failure with that policy.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm just curious why anyone WOULDN'T think that Jewish voters in the United States are heavily influential in out Middle East policies?

Because most Jews in NYC aren't Zionists. Don't know about Miami.

[Clove]

Because most Jews in NYC aren't Zionists. Don't know about Miami.So a Jewish American has to be a Zionist to be interested in our Middle Eastern policies and how they effect Israel? I'm sure there's a spectrum of interests and agendas, but I don't think it's a reach to assume "the typical" Jew would have some interest in foreign policy that effects Israel.

[Stanley Burrell]

So a Jewish American has to be a Zionist to be interested in our Middle Eastern policies and how they effect Israel? I'm sure there's a spectrum of interests and agendas, but I don't think it's a reach to assume "the typical" Jew would have some interest in foreign policy that effects Israel.

Heh, definitely not just Jewish Americans.

[TheEschaton]

Eh, I would comment, but I prefer not being labelled an anti-Semite for disagreeing with how Israel handles its business.

[Stanley Burrell]

Eh, I would comment, but I prefer not being labelled an anti-Semite for disagreeing with how Israel handles its business.

..?

It's a discussion, not a KKK rally.

[TheEschaton]

:P

So if I said the general failure of the Middle East was the result of the creation of Israel, Israeli failures to see things in a nuanced way, and by their redefinition of "proportional force" and "self-defense" to include missiles into Palestinian neighborhoods and pre-emptive strikes (an idea they pioneered), you wouldn't thing I was an anti-Semite?

Yeah, right, that's why I'm not saying them. ;)

-TheE-

[Stanley Burrell]

I'd just say you were talking about one religion, specifically.

[Back]

Israelis put corn on their pizza. Corn!

Its a beautiful region though.

[Clove]

Eh, I would comment, but I prefer not being labelled an anti-Semite for disagreeing with how Israel handles its business.QFT

[Clove]

Israelis put corn on their pizza. Corn!Speaking as an Italian American, that's among the Israelis culinary successes. :D

[Back]

Speaking as an Italian American, that's among the Israelis culinary successes. :D

You should see what they do with chickpeas. Pretty awesome.

[Clove]

:P

So if I said the general failure of the Middle East was the result of the creation of Israel, Israeli failures to see things in a nuanced way, and by their redefinition of "proportional force" and "self-defense" to include missiles into Palestinian neighborhoods and pre-emptive strikes (an idea they pioneered), you wouldn't thing I was an anti-Semite?

Yeah, right, that's why I'm not saying them. ;)

-TheE-Israel has been a good ally at the right times and they've turned desert and wasteland into a flourishing garden. I certainly want to see Israel AND Palestine thrive together- but Israel can be um... heavy handed. I think both sides share blame equally for the never-ending turmoil, and I don't think our foreign policy acknowledges this. Guess that makes me anti-semite too.

[Stanley Burrell]

You should see what they do with chickpeas. Pretty awesome.

LOL

I was only in Israel once, kind of recently; and it was for very unfortunate circumstances (didn't get to see as much as I did sit shiva) but I still don't understand what vendors do/don't do that makes their falafels NOT GREEN. I distinctively remember that. Weird.

[Back]

I spent a month there. If you get a chance, go snorkeling in Elat. The Red Sea is amazing. The Dead Sea is also amazing in different ways.

PS. Don’t buy those salts they pander. Dipping yourself in the Dead Sea is free.

[Daniel]

; before their poverty, before their claims of oppression.

Sorry Stanley. Their Poverty and their oppression is because of Israel. You can say that I don't know what I'm talking about (as you already have) but I've been there and I've seen what Israeli's do to Palestinians. If you want to have a discussion then please try and be the least bit objective and not dismiss other people's accounts of how things are because you don't believe in them.

The fact of the matter is the UN doesn't support Israel *because* it does fucked up things. I don't see you decrying the UN when it comes to Bush and the war in Iraq, and yet..here you are acting like it's a fucking joke.

The Irony.

[Daniel]

I could've sworn you had a Magen David tattooed on your wrist, errr?

I do.

http://b4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/01221/44/82/1221452844_l.jpg

The context is different.

However, it was interesting living in Cairo with that. As bad as that was, it was even worse going to Germany. Jesus christ.

[sst]

Sorry Stanley. Their Poverty and their oppression is because of Israel. You can say that I don't know what I'm talking about (as you already have) but I've been there and I've seen what Israeli's do to Palestinians. If you want to have a discussion then please try and be the least bit objective and not dismiss other people's accounts of how things are because you don't believe in them.

The fact of the matter is the UN doesn't support Israel *because* it does fucked up things. I don't see you decrying the UN when it comes to Bush and the war in Iraq, and yet..here you are acting like it's a fucking joke.

The Irony.

I decry the UN for everything it does.

Back to a previous statement you made about the wall. How would we feel as Americans if it was put up say around the projects in Chicago.. I don't Think that to be a fair analogy, not because we are Americans and wouldn't do that... its because the people in the projects feel that they are Americans too. They ARE in their minds citizens of America. Where the Palestinians, think they are Palestinians, not Israeli. So in retrospect its no different than putting up a wall to keep the mexicans out, which I too support. The only difference is, not many Mexicans come to America with the intention of killing as many of us as they can with a bomb strapped to their chests

[Clove]

But the wall makes it difficult to visit family on the other side or take advantage of economic opportunities...

[Clove]

...It's wordplay. It would be nice if it weren't, but saying "U.N." when Katushas and Qassams are fired at innocents in the manner that they are, or at all, for that matter -- And is not immediately condemned as a whole by the U.N., says a lot about what the U.N. is and what it is not, for now, anyway...There's blame enough for both sides and unfairness going around on both sides, but I get sick of the "the Palestinian's/Israelis started argument." Palestinian terrorist acts aren't defensible- but neither are Israel's terrorist responses. The excuses from Israel that justify assassinations and indiscriminate attacks has to stop if they want my support. And the same goes for the Palestinians. When someone over there starts demonstrating an interest in peace, then they'll have my approval.

[Daniel]

I decry the UN for everything it does.

Back to a previous statement you made about the wall. How would we feel as Americans if it was put up say around the projects in Chicago.. I don't Think that to be a fair analogy, not because we are Americans and wouldn't do that... its because the people in the projects feel that they are Americans too. They ARE in their minds citizens of America. Where the Palestinians, think they are Palestinians, not Israeli. So in retrospect its no different than putting up a wall to keep the mexicans out, which I too support. The only difference is, not many Mexicans come to America with the intention of killing as many of us as they can with a bomb strapped to their chests

You really think this statement would have held true in the 1960's?

[Daniel]

There's blame enough for both sides and unfairness going around on both sides, but I get sick of the "the Palestinian's/Israelis started argument." Palestinian terrorist acts aren't defensible- but neither are Israel's terrorist responses. The excuses from Israel that justify assassinations and indiscriminate attacks has to stop if they want my support. And the same goes for the Palestinians. When someone over there starts demonstrating an interest in peace, then they'll have my approval.


Basically.

[TheEschaton]

It would be one thing if, in response to Palestinian terrorist attacks, the Israelis sent in an extradition force into these neighborhoods to take these Hamas leaders personally.

But instead, they fire missiles at the house, kill 50 people, and when asked about the civilian casualties, they shrug and say "that's too bad for them for harboring terrorists..."

Israel cannot claim the moral high ground, yet it continues to do so, and we support it. That is unacceptable.

Oh, and Dave, a better analogy would be like this: if the international community decided there should be a Hindu nation, say, right in the middle of NYC, and they declare Manhattan to be a new Hindu nation. Then, the Hindus kick out all the native NYers, build a wall around Manhattan saying its their land and always has been, and that the NYers aren't allowed in.

How do you think NYers would feel about that?

[Parkbandit]

I'm trying to think what the US would do if Mexico started lobbing missiles and mortars into the US, killing our citizens.

I agree with Clove though.. enough is enough. Who gives two shits who started it.. where do we go from here. Who really wants peace.. step up already ffs.

[Daniel]

Actually, the better analogy would be that instead of building a wall around Manhattan, they built one *through* Brooklyn, Long Island and Connecicut for their personal safety.

[Clove]

Actually, the better analogy would be that instead of building a wall around Manhattan, they built one *through* Brooklyn, Long Island and Connecicut for their personal safety.

Is that a bad thing? Frankly I'd be grateful for a wall between me and Stanley. :love:

[Stanley Burrell]

The fact of the matter is the UN doesn't support Israel *because* it does fucked up things. I don't see you decrying the UN when it comes to Bush and the war in Iraq, and yet..here you are acting like it's a fucking joke.

The Irony.

I think the irony is that the Arab nations of The UN supposedly support Palestine with such immense capacity, but are pretty much scared shitless to let any of them immigrate into their own countries.

[Stanley Burrell]

You really think this statement would have held true in the 1960's?

"Antisemitism ... has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so..." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

Probably.

[TheEschaton]

Gandhi, MLKs idol, would have disagreed.

[Warriorbird]

Clove... stop writing posts I can largely agree with. I find it spooky.

[Stanley Burrell]

Gandhi, MLKs idol, would have disagreed.

I'm pretty sure Gandhi was an advocate of non-violent protest as well.

[Clove]

Clove... stop writing posts I can largely agree with. I find it spooky.I'm just trying to work for unity.

[Clove]

I'm pretty sure Gandhi was an advocate of non-violent protest as well.Which neither Israel or Palestine engage in presently. They want to destroy each other. The US tends to support Israel, the UN Palestine. I'm of the personal opinion that NEITHER deserves support from EITHER of us, until one or both cuts the shit.

[Stanley Burrell]

Which neither Israel or Palestine engage in presently.

Exactly.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Which neither Israel or Palestine engage in presently. They want to destroy each other. The US tends to support Israel, the UN Palestine. I'm of the personal opinion that NEITHER deserves support from EITHER of us, until one or both cuts the shit.

I want to play devils advocate for a minute.

Let's say both the UN and the US pull our support. They continue to battle (nothing new right?). Then one begins to win, and ultimately, does. The winner, let's say Israel, institutes marshal law and kills any dissidents with things like mustard gas. Buries whole villages in mass graves, etc.

Should we do anything then?

[Stanley Burrell]

:P

So if I said the general failure of the Middle East was the result of the creation of Israel, Israeli failures to see things in a nuanced way, and by their redefinition of "proportional force" and "self-defense" to include missiles into Palestinian neighborhoods and pre-emptive strikes (an idea they pioneered), you wouldn't thing I was an anti-Semite?

Yeah, right, that's why I'm not saying them. ;)

-TheE-

I think if Israel used one one-hundredth of its arsenal to target innocents in a first strike fashion that Palestinian militants are famous for, in some theoretical juxtaposition scenario, Palestine would be a basin bordering the Earth's core.

I disagree motherfucking wholeheartedly with second class citizenship. Arab Israeli generals are key figures in The IDF and I think that it's absolutely absurd that the Messianics are the ones who never associate themselves with joining the forces but are able to maintain their peacefulness through continuous religious practice and numbering themselves in the oligarchy.

Israel is far from Islamic law as its constitutional regard for citizenship -- And I think that has to be illustrated by obliterating the citizenship distinctions for Old Jerusalem inhabitants, because it's so fucking moot; you can't tell Sephardim from Gazans or Ashkenaz from blue-eyed Egyptian descendants. People are on their merry way and don't have to fear decapitation or death-by-stoning by not abiding The Five Pillars. If there's ever a first step that falls primarily on Israel, it would be to make this ugly, and especially stupid apartheid go away. You can still have Mossad crawling up the collective asses of terrorists without this segregation.

[BigWorm]

I was going to stay out of this thread for similar (but not identical) reasons as TheE.

Right now Isreal is a big problem for the U.S. because the fact that the Israelis are the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons is the main force driving Iran to acquire them in an attempt to balance the scales.

[TheEschaton]

Gandhi, who was around for the carving out of the Jewish homeland, was vehemently against it. He said they could not justify correcting the wrong of the Holocaust with another wrong against an innocent people who had no part in it.

60 years later, he was pretty much right.

[Stanley Burrell]

It's okay when Guam is hijacked into our own personal nuclear training facility.

Also, Ahmajinadad is:

A) Nutjob.

B) Not exactly a praised figure by the Ayatollah or moderate Iranian Islam-advocates, which will hopefully lead to Iran's moderates baleeting his face off of the map.

[Clove]

...Should we do anything then?That depends on the proximity of oil reserves.

[Stanley Burrell]

Gandhi, who was around for the carving out of the Jewish homeland, was vehemently against it. He said they could not justify correcting the wrong of the Holocaust with another wrong against an innocent people who had no part in it.

60 years later, he was pretty much right.

Israel was already existent prior to Balfour, check your history books dude. Very surprisingly, roll-my-eyes, the area was already thriving with Jews who had suffered under Palestinian dictatorship (like the Mufti, who I've mentioned.)

...I'm sure Gandhi was an advocate of first strike shoulder missiles. It must be in the literature somewhere. Right?

I have strong Argentine background; when a junta commences in the act of asshattery at a foreign presence as a first strike by military dictators, it reaps ANY response, which is warranted. The counterstrike could be leafletting, WMD-usage, or handing out candy. I hate to sound like The Frenchman, but: Action and reaction. Cause and effect.

[Clove]

Clove... stop writing posts I can largely agree with. I find it spooky.


Exactly.Wow, everyone is agreeing with me today. That really is spooky, WB.

[Celephais]

Is this thread worth reading? or just banging of heads against the wall?

[Clove]

Is this thread worth reading? or just banging of heads against the wall?That depends on how you feel about agreeing with me :D

[Stanley Burrell]

Is this thread worth reading? or just banging of heads against the wall?

How plush-padded is your room?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

That depends on the proximity of oil reserves.

Mine was a serious question. I think being a superpower we should help the world to prevent atrocities, wherever they may be. I know we cannot be shepards to the whole world as we don't have the resources, but at what point should our foreign policy trigger and participate in something like that.

[LMingrone]

The tricky part of the Palestine/Isreal thing is how it began. You had a world that was used to going to war over territories and borders. After WWII we haven't seen much more than in-fighting and racial/religious battles. There have been territory/border wars, but not like in the past.

Palestine and Isreal got stuck in the middle. They both say they've "earned" the land in the past (through war). But now fighting for the land isn't acceptable. I feel for both sides.

Both sides are killing innocent civilians for leverage though. I think all of us can agree that is very very very sad.

/Never seen a thread like this go so far without being GodwinD

[Clove]

Mine was a serious question. I think being a superpower we should help the world to prevent atrocities, wherever they may be. I know we cannot be shepards to the whole world as we don't have the resources, but at what point should our foreign policy trigger and participate in something like that.To a certain extent mine was a serious answer. The genuine interests we have in a region plays strongly on how far we should be willing to go on our own to influence (or even control) that region. Eloquently illustrated by how much attention we give the Middle East vs. say Congo, or even North Korea.

I don't believe we (or any one nation) can, or should be world police. It isn't just a question of resources, but a question of sharing responsibility- I just don't think one nation should decide what the minimum standards for a legitimate government should be for the world. This is a decision that the world needs to collectively make and embrace, and then ultimately share the responsibility in enforcing. While the UN has made some progress in this goal, much of their efforts have been eroded by corruption.