The Balance Problem: Square Vs. Pures.

[Lysander]

Ok, so this is the classic arguement thats been going on for centuries.

After, sunfisting it up I've been noticing many things.
First, I always pray for a square opponent. Secondly, its a heck of a lot easier to do my tasks with my sorc then it is with my warrior.

So the age old question? Why since the beginning of GS has warriors and squares have gotten the shaft time and time again? Is it GM arrogance (my professions should be better then yours) GM neglect (no real hardcore warrior GMs short of Giacomo?) or just downright unpopularity of the profession? Why after all this time is there this problem?

[Latrinsorm]

There is only a balance problem if your idea of balance is every profession should do everything equally well.

[Kitsun]

I think its a problem with perspective and the aging of the game. For the level range of the original GS (approximately 0 to 20) squares ruled the world. Low level casters tend to slog through the first 40 levels or so, dealing with limited mana supplies for hunting, low duration for spells, typically lower STR, sucktastic weapon AS, encumberance, etc.

At the upper reaches of the game its easy to see how ewaving and mass destruction spells own the places with tendencies to swarm while warriors are still stuck as one-trick, weapon-swinging ponies. No one seems to care to remember the pain in the ass it took to get there. In all fairness though, squares will probably be stuck sucking longer post-cap than pures did getting into the higher reaches of the game.

I also don't think it is fair to say that squares have gotten shafted repeatedly since the inception of the game; thats just simply selective memory going on there.

[Asha]

Squares got some really awesome, pure-stomping cmans

[Lysander]

Squares got some really awesome, pure-stomping cmans

Please show me a clip of one?

Everytime a pure goes against a square, 90% of the time the pure wins...this is PvP and possibly even grimswarms.

[Warriorbird]

You just don't know how to fight.

[Stretch]

This has been discussed multiple times already, but I don't see how Gemstone is different from a lot of other RPGs.

Squares tend to be tanks that aren't exactly efficient at culling, but also have it easiest from the beginning until the midpoint of the game. Pures suck to level until they have enough mana to spellup in less than 30 minutes and get fried without wands.

At end game, the differences are pretty pronounced. Pures and even semis can do the crowd control thing, and go through critters several times faster. As a tradeoff, squares can stay in the field longer without being easily hindered by encumberance or mana.

Any wizard or bard can blow through Nelemar/OTF/Grimswarm and kill things 5x faster my rogue can, but I can stay in the field for 20 minutes without havng to worry about encumberance/mana.

Of course, warriors kind of just suck.

A counterattack CMAN would be freaking sweet, but that ain't going to happen.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Please show me a clip of one?

Everytime a pure goes against a square, 90% of the time the pure wins...this is PvP and possibly even grimswarms.

After a point, it really becomes a matter of who gets off a successful attack first.

[Lysander]

I agree, Rogues tend to be one shot sniper killers. Warriors should be max output swings/damage.

Counterattack CMAN would be awesome. For every cast/attack a warrior has a chance to get in a free attack with all the fixings.

Even better would be Feint Dance CMAN, where you can feint multiple opponents. Really, a warriors biggest problem is AS (sorry Latrin). If I had a huge AS, I would just sit there and mstrike the room with a lance or claid and then proceed to one on one each critter after they are stunned. It won't be as fast as a pure or semi crowd control, but it's better then nothing.

[Warriorbird]

Just extend your capabilities. By that point you should be able to afford/have access to ways to extend yourself (magic, equipment).

[Khariz]

There is only a balance problem if your idea of balance is every profession should do everything equally well.

I agree with this, and in my opinion, this statement ends the thread.

[Lysander]

Problem is a pure can pretty much do everything well. I seriously die 2-3 times as much as a warrior in padded full plate then I do my sorc in 4x gear (and he's in mid game not cap). Pures just don't get hit, and I think people have a misconception about CMAN attacks...because I rarely die from them as a pure(.33 CM trained).

Actually I invite someone to count up the number of pure CMAN deaths in the 'deaths folder'.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Squares need a pwn room CMAN is all.

MFire could have been one of them.
Berserk could have been one of them.
Warcries could have been one of them.
Crowd Press could have been one of them.

More imaginative minds than my own could figure it out.

[Fallen]

Warriors need a form of spelldux which helps to negate crit deaths from spells, and the ability to ignore wound stacking to a large degree. Between that and learning to spell tank at later levels, warriors wound be fine. Still a bit boring...but yeah, they're squares.

[Lysander]

Warriors should just not be a profession. I wanted to make a minimal armor wearing warrior for the longest time. It's kinda stupid that a warrior MUST wear full plate to be viable. But whatever, Monks FTW.

[Fallen]

Euginides has a scary warrior build that wears robes, but he has a lot of toys to help him out with that. Still, it is possible. I don't know about 0-100, but nearly ANY build can make it to 60-70.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Warriors should just not be a profession. I wanted to make a minimal armor wearing warrior for the longest time. It's kinda stupid that a warrior MUST wear full plate to be viable. But whatever, Monks FTW.

A warrior certainly does not "need" full plate to be viable, however, it IS mechanically the best melee defense in terms of armor - so why wouldn't you want to wear it?

To say "warriors should just not be a profession" is rather stupid. Maybe you just suck at playing one.

[Lysander]

They just need a mass disabler of some kind. How is ewave using MIU? Does it disable everything in the room if used like level?

[Danical]

A warrior certainly does not "need" full plate to be viable, however, it IS mechanically the best melee defense in terms of armor - so why wouldn't you want to wear it?

I can't see any Tehir in their right mind wearing full plate but it's stuipd, mechanically, not to wear it.

Not every warrior in the world had full plate, in fact, most didn't but SIMU hasn't really considered this and/or hasn't done a fucking thing to rectify the situation despite player QQing and damn good suggestions.

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Now playing: TBF - Thumping Headache (ID: 16231) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/tbf/track/thumping+headache+(id%3a+16231))
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Sylvan Dreams]

They just need a mass disabler of some kind. How is ewave using MIU? Does it disable everything in the room if used like level?

Ewave and tremor are very effective. Matter of fact, ewave from an imbed is often better than ewave cast by a sorcerer (both post cap). Go figure.

Major wave trumps them all, though.

[Danical]

Ewave and tremor are very effective. Matter of fact, ewave from an imbed is often better than ewave cast by a sorcerer (both post cap). Go figure.

I bet if you actually collected data on it, you'd see the above statement is bullshit.

Just saying.

However, imbeds + !hindrance = win.

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Now playing: Muse - Fillip (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/muse/track/fillip)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Drew]

I'd be very surprised if ewave worked better from a warrior rub than self cast.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I was speaking from experience.

[Fallen]

I know sure as shit Quake does. Debia's quake is better than mine. No idea why.

[Danical]

I was speaking from experience.

I know you were.

Hence why I said you'll need to do data collection.

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Now playing: Muse - Hate This & I'll Love You (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/muse/track/hate+this+%26+ill+love+you)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Latrinsorm]

If I had a huge AS, I would just sit there and mstrike the room with a lance or claid and then proceed to one on one each critter after they are stunned.You can have an AS of 3000, you're still going to get EBPd and have double digit roundtimes (which equals dead warrior in any swarming area). [Not to mention that stunning is by far the least reliable disabler.]

[Danical]

Especially since grimswarm will shake off the stun quickly and just continue with the beatdown.

[Drew]

How does a single warrior fight the grimswarm?

[Lysander]

So I guess quake or major wave or something similar is the best tactic. So to answer the above poster's question, use magic...

[Fallen]

Imbeds, Spell tanking, and running away.

I would spell tank first, enter one room into the camp, wait for the swarm to enter, use a knock-down imbed, kill the casters, and deal with the rest in order of importance. Continue on like this until you are out of stamina/imbeds, or are hurt. Once unable to continue or are finished, exit the camp.

[Drew]

That sucks. Another good reason not to be a warrior.

[Stretch]

How does a single warrior fight the grimswarm?

I imagine it isn't too hard if you're under level 40. Attract a wave, then run and pick them off one or two at a time.

Once they get major e-wave, then it starts sucking hardcore.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Don't forget haste!

[Fallen]

Haste and feint make for a very nice combination.

[Some Rogue]

I imagine it isn't too hard if you're under level 40. Attract a wave, then run and pick them off one or two at a time.



Pretty much what I do on my level 14 warrior.

[Stanley Burrell]

Haste and feint make for a very nice combination.

Word.

All warriors really need is a 110% probability of finding an infinite hasting, no mana/MIU item hunting kobolds. Asdf, asdf, asdf, asdf. Asdf.

[Fallen]

Or getting 40 rods of it from Portous for like 80k

[Stanley Burrell]

Or getting 40 rods of it from Portous for like 80k

That sounds self-sufficient. Are pocket wizards 80k too?

[Fallen]

Warriors aren't meant to take on entire armies by themselves, and they likely never will. Self-sufficiency for a warrior means hunting within your means. As has been shown in the various folders on the officials, crying about it doesn't seem to help.

[Lysander]

If all the warriors quit playing GS, I bet that'll do it. And don't give me this we're not affected by player sway BS, a total pullout will catch the attention of the guy who's rolling in our VERY real money for his text based fantasy world.

[Fallen]

Hell, that type of protest worked the last time warriors were the weakest profession. They started killing themselves in dramatic fashions and such. That is what in part brought about guild skills and redux. Thing is back then they were far more shitty than they are now. Don't get me wrong, they still suck, but they aren't unviable. People like Perigourd and Hakonne aren't going to quit, they are going to adapt and keep begging for change. It will come, but not in the form of Stanley's free haste items.

[Sylvan Dreams]

If all the warriors quit playing GS, I bet that'll do it. And don't give me this we're not affected by player sway BS, a total pullout will catch the attention of the guy who's rolling in our VERY real money for his text based fantasy world.

I don't think that there's enough warriors out there that would make a ding in Simu's pocket if they quit.

[Lysander]

Guess we'll have to wait for monks.

[Fallen]

Paladins are pretty (over) powerful. You can still convert to them if you're old enough.

[Warriorbird]

Warriors are actually somewhat challenging. Most of the other professions aren't. If you crave gigantic AS... by all means, be a paladin. They're a bit one note though.

[Lysander]

Warriors == Playing GS on hard?

[Clipt]

Warriors == Playing GS on hard?

Perv.

[Stretch]

I thought paladins sucked?

Everyone that I talked to that converted wishes they hadn't.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I thought paladins sucked?

Everyone that I talked to that converted wishes they hadn't.

then why didn't they pay to be restored?

[Stretch]

I dunno, but I imagine it has something to do with not wanting to shell out $250.

[Danical]

^^^^^^^^^^

HHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRR

[Lysander]

Paladins don't suck in theory. It's just until way way way post cap they suck, but theoretical is one of the most overpowered classes in the game. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that the profession was made to make people play way post cap (and play longer and Simu gets more money) or shell out 250$.

I just hope monks aren't built around crappy lores, which costs forever to get. People wise up to these kind of gimmicks imo.

[Khariz]

then why didn't they pay to be restored?

I did. Best 250 I ever spent. Being a paladin sucked the left one.

[Ben 2.0]

Warriors get the shaft in like every game.

[Khariz]

Warriors get the shaft in like every game.

No they don't. Again, back to Latrinsorm's comment at the beginning of this thread.

Warriors only suck for people who want them to be something other than what they are. They can't do everything as well as every other class. I've capped one of every character in this game except bard and ranger, and of them all, I love my Warrior the most.

I don't know what all you folks are smoking.

[Ben 2.0]

They should make weapon bonding stronger and to AS more. If you could have a 10x claid with bonding I'm pretty sure every warrior would be pretty psyched.

[Ben 2.0]

They can't do everything as well as every other class.

What can they do BETTER than every other class?
Get your multiacc empath fried?

[Maerit]

Here's a CMAN concept that might work wonders for squares.

Whirlwind
Mnemonic: whirlwind
Hostile: yes
Stamina Cost: Base 10 (+2 stamina per additional target beyond the first two targets)
Other Requirements: Must have one empty hand.
Available to: Warriors, Rogues, Paladins, Bards, Rangers
Prerequisites: none
CMP cost: Warrior/Rogue Bards/Paladins
Rank 1----------2-------------3
Rank 2----------4-------------6
Rank 3----------6-------------9
Rank 4----------8-------------12
Rank 5----------10------------15
Description: The user of the maneuver will attempt to whirl furiously spinning through a crowd in order to strike a number of opponents based on the ranks of this maneuver known. Each rank will increase the number of targets struck by this maneuver, starting with 2 targets at rank 1 up to 6 targets at rank 5. Additionally, rank 5 will provide a 50% chance that the user will strike each at the default aimed area. Training in Multi-Opponent Combat will increase the chance to successfully aim the whirlwind maneuver (5% per every 10 ranks).

You may set the maximum number of targets you wish to strike by whirlwind using whirlwind set <#>.

5 second Round Time.

A move like this one would be useful, and not over-powered. Considering you can hit 6 targets for 20 stamina, not cheap. You need a free hand to do it regardless of what kind of weapon you're using since you need to hold on with both hands while you spin furiously, and that means its going to favor two-handed weapons users, which I feel is appropriate considering that a two-handed weapon should be much more effective. At 5 ranks, you get to aim your whirlwind based on your aim settings. This lets you vary depending on your style. I want to say that aiming a whirlwind should simply determine the height of the attack, not where you're actually going to strike something, but I suppose if you’re spinning like a top through a crowd you might be able to aim appropriately at the right location if you’re skilled enough (that’s where MOC training comes into play).

With 50 ranks of MOC training, 5 ranks of whirlwind and an aim default setting at “left leg”, you would have a 75% chance of striking 6 targets in their left leg, possibly causing them to be stunned and/or knocked down for 20 stamina. Not something you can spam, but definitely a useful tool in a swarm. It doesn’t really compete with ewave or similar spells due to the extreme costs and “chance” to knock things over, but like previously mentioned – squares probably shouldn’t be able to excel as much as a pure in mass combat.

[Ben 2.0]

Here's a CMAN concept that might work wonders for squares.

Whirlwind
Mnemonic: whirlwind
Hostile: yes
Stamina Cost: Base 10 (+2 stamina per additional target beyond the first two targets)
Other Requirements: Must have one empty hand.
Available to: Warriors, Rogues, Paladins, Bards, Rangers
Prerequisites: none
CMP cost: Warrior/Rogue Bards/Paladins
Rank 1----------2-------------3
Rank 2----------4-------------6
Rank 3----------6-------------9
Rank 4----------8-------------12
Rank 5----------10------------15
Description: The user of the maneuver will attempt to whirl furiously spinning through a crowd in order to strike a number of opponents based on the ranks of this maneuver known. Each rank will increase the number of targets struck by this maneuver, starting with 2 targets at rank 1 up to 6 targets at rank 5. Additionally, rank 5 will provide a 50% chance that the user will strike each at the default aimed area. Training in Multi-Opponent Combat will increase the chance to successfully aim the whirlwind maneuver (5% per every 10 ranks).

You may set the maximum number of targets you wish to strike by whirlwind using whirlwind set <#>.

5 second Round Time.

A move like this one would be useful, and not over-powered. Considering you can hit 6 targets for 20 stamina, not cheap. You need a free hand to do it regardless of what kind of weapon you're using since you need to hold on with both hands while you spin furiously, and that means its going to favor two-handed weapons users, which I feel is appropriate considering that a two-handed weapon should be much more effective. At 5 ranks, you get to aim your whirlwind based on your aim settings. This lets you vary depending on your style. I want to say that aiming a whirlwind should simply determine the height of the attack, not where you're actually going to strike something, but I suppose if you’re spinning like a top through a crowd you might be able to aim appropriately at the right location if you’re skilled enough (that’s where MOC training comes into play).

With 50 ranks of MOC training, 5 ranks of whirlwind and an aim default setting at “left leg”, you would have a 75% chance of striking 6 targets in their left leg, possibly causing them to be stunned and/or knocked down for 20 stamina. Not something you can spam, but definitely a useful tool in a swarm. It doesn’t really compete with ewave or similar spells due to the extreme costs and “chance” to knock things over, but like previously mentioned – squares probably shouldn’t be able to excel as much as a pure in mass combat.


couldnt they just make mstrike aimable?/Available to: Warriors, Rogues, Paladins, Bards, Rangers.?

[Maerit]

couldnt they just make mstrike aimable?/Available to: Warriors, Rogues, Paladins, Bards, Rangers.?

No reason to exclude paladins, bards or rangers. The cost to train and use this CMAN probably doesn't fit into too many semi styles, but could be kind of fun. Though I suppose one could easily remove them from the chart and make it a square only manuever.

Aimable mstrike is a good thought, but too restricted by heavy training in MOC, which is a lot of TPs. It also comes with a hefty cooldown, and a very nasty RT that is a disabler in swarms, and not helpful. I'd rather my cooldown be something I managed (stamina), and not have that massive RT to wait through while my targets get unstunned, stand up on their own, and then decide to ewave me while I'm still in RT. I currently use a one-handed weapon and have a 10 second RT for hitting 3 targets. I have no idea what massive RT would occur from attacking 6 targets, and believe that it would be far too long while faced with a swarm.

[Latrinsorm]

What can they do BETTER than every other class?
Get your multiacc empath fried?Wear heavy armor.
Take a hit (redux falling under this).
Use multiple combat styles.
Maneuver (offensively and defensively).
EBP.

[Stanley Burrell]

Wear heavy armor.
Take a hit (redux falling under this).
Use multiple combat styles.
Maneuver (offensively and defensively).
EBP.

Or not have 13 seconds of roundtime. Tough choice.

[Stanley Burrell]

Warriors only suck for people who want them to be something other than what they are. They can't do everything as well as every other class. I've capped one of every character in this game except bard and ranger, and of them all, I love my Warrior the most.

My Wizard can run into rooms with spell aiming doubled (+ spell aiming enhancive badge) throw lightning bolts over his fucking back and smite shit. And finish the drive-by in the next room while a bunch of critters may or may not lay dead. I then use the PEER command.

Hardcore spell-casting makes about as much sense on nimble feet as ambushing with morning stars and running away with 14+ seconds of MSTRIKE RT (etc.) so a swarm can't get you.

Warriors are phenomenally fucked. By comparison, Latrin.

[Maerit]

What can they do BETTER than every other class?

This maybe could have been phrased a little better to include a specific area you're interested in discussing. Generally, there are a number of things warriors do "better", but are very weak in specific aspects of the game.

For example, warriors can customize their playstyle a lot better than most classes. They can train for multiple types of weapons, dual-wield, wield two-handers effectively, train for all types of armor, train in dozens of combat manuevers to further customize their playstyle, and effectively tune a character towards that goal. This is the main draw to warriors, they can be a lot more unique in combat than most other classes.

Now if you want to specify an area of the game to ask your question, it might make sense to ask something like -- What types of fighting or critter does a warrior kill better than every other class?

The answer is, under-hunting. A warrior is far superior to any other class while under-hunting because they can do it for hours. They don't need spells, take little damage, and have no reliance on mana to under-hunt. That's about it, though. Any other type of combat will be better suited to any other type of character. Be it stealth characters, pure casters, semis with support spells, all of these folks tend to take out creatures and swarms in all scenarios better than warriors.

There is something to be said for having "cookie cutter" options when they give your class an advantage. Yet, its hard to want that when it would probably mean the death of warrior diversity.

-- Maerit

[Stanley Burrell]

This maybe could have been phrased a little better to include a specific area you're interested in discussing. Generally, there are a number of things warriors do "better", but are very weak in specific aspects of the game.

For example, warriors can customize their playstyle a lot better than most classes. They can train for multiple types of weapons, dual-wield, wield two-handers effectively, train for all types of armor, train in dozens of combat manuevers to further customize their playstyle, and effectively tune a character towards that goal. This is the main draw to warriors, they can be a lot more unique in combat than most other classes.

Yeah, they actually die.

And no; I disagree from experience: Combat versatility is not a Warrior's prowess, or bread and butter by a heckuva long shot. I have a Bard. In the new Sunfist society. Plausibly hunting in ways that make Warriors look like NPC auto-spawns.

Eh. I might also 2HW + haste my Wizzie if I get bored enough.

[Warriorbird]

People complain too much about Warriors.

[Stanley Burrell]

People complain too much about Warriors.

Well it's a good thing nobody ever compained about Sorcerers or Empaths. Must be all the complaining that's stagnating Warriors so badly :-X

[Warriorbird]

I've never complained about either.

The class won't be more deeply adjusted due to how GS staff currently stands. Ironically it is someone who played a Warrior that is the root of it.

[Warriorbird]

I've never complained about either.

The class won't be more deeply adjusted due to how GS staff currently stands. Ironically it is someone who played a Warrior that is the root of it.

[Sylvan Dreams]

For example, warriors can customize their playstyle a lot better than most classes. They can train for multiple types of weapons, dual-wield, wield two-handers effectively, train for all types of armor, train in dozens of combat manuevers to further customize their playstyle, and effectively tune a character towards that goal. This is the main draw to warriors, they can be a lot more unique in combat than most other classes.-- Maerit

Yes they can train in multiple weapon styles, BUT, you can still only use one type at a time.

There's other classes that can dual-wield or use twohanders effectively, so that's hardly a warrior only perk.

They have the OPTION to train in dozens of combat maneuvers, but let me tell you, they certainly will not have dozens in their arsenal (not if they plan to actually be able to use them against anything).

None of that beats a caster's ability to kill multiple targets in a single 3 second soft RT cast. None of that even comes close to being comparable.

A warrior does make a badass defender character, though, especially when paired with a pure. The pure that gets stunned from a CMAN can get unstunned by the warrior. The warrior that gets stunned from a spell can get unstunned by the caster. Or unwebbed, unbound, etc. etc.

[Stanley Burrell]

I've never complained about either.

↓

The class won't be more deeply adjusted due to how GS staff currently stands.

I think there is some truth in your fiction, and some fiction in your truth:

Eventually, there'll be a generation of GSIV Warriors. There is wholly a lack of enticement to begin with, but I think the lack of complaining void can make its way to the officials and hopefully threaten SIMU financially enough that someone will get it in their brains to start typing on a damn keyboard, heh.


Ironically it is someone who played a Warrior that is the root of it.

Definitely past tense. GSIII was a great game.

[Warriorbird]

You don't seem to get that Simu's written GS off. It's free extra money. Whatley has moved on.

[Stanley Burrell]

I disagree. That's all I can say.

[Maerit]

Yes they can train in multiple weapon styles, BUT, you can still only use one type at a time.

There's other classes that can dual-wield or use twohanders effectively, so that's hardly a warrior only perk.

They have the OPTION to train in dozens of combat maneuvers, but let me tell you, they certainly will not have dozens in their arsenal (not if they plan to actually be able to use them against anything).


I'm pretty sure that my post emphasized that having variety did not make a warrior better in combat. Its a class strength in that it builds definition into your character that you may not be able to otherwise accomodate, while you do not give up any of your viability to do so. If you want a two-handed swinging wizard, that works, but does it work as well as a pure wizard? I dare to say - no.

But, if you want to wield any style of weapon, or pursue any of the many combat manuevers, warriors can work those into their playstyle without drastically changing their viability in combat vs other warriors. It by no means they are better at killing than your standard imploding sorceror.

If you want to point out other major weaknesses, how about this gem -- Squares are very gear dependant, more so than any pure class. And yet, Simu is very very touchy on releasing powerful gear. The warrior class is immesely limited by the fact that they have to spend millions more than other classes just to maintain their level of play as they move into harder fighting zones.

[Lysander]

Wear heavy armor.
Take a hit (redux falling under this).
Use multiple combat styles.
Maneuver (offensively and defensively).
EBP.


Thats why I love Latrinsorm, he's the type of person who would consider being able to see or breathing oxygen as a feature and not a neccessity.


Taking a hit? Because they HAVE to take that hit or they'll be unplayable. Heavy armor is a part of this.

Use multiple combat styles? Ooo... I can fucking blow up the entire room with open implosion!!!... But wait thats unfair to sorcerers ...mayhaps sorcs are weaker at killing one on one!

A void rips open in the area, directly above you!
You are sucked into the void!
Rather abrupt decompression causes you to explode!
Billions and billions of tiny bits of flesh shower everything.
Quite severely dead.

Wait where was the damage, the numbers? MAYHAPS a FUCKING GM did this? Hmm... no it was just focused implosion.

Manuever.... give me a fucking break ok? You can tackle shit or charge shit... really the only cool manuever I ever gave a damn was weapon bonding. Yes, Jedi powers to get my disarmed weapon back while it's in the hands of my enemy is freakin cool... YES! We can genuinely claim this is the coolest part of being a warrior and NO other profession can mimic this one treasured ability. Thank goodness.

[Lysander]

I think there is really no TRUE warrior GM. And yes I'm going to say it even though it may hurt the profession "I don't think GM Coase (our warrior guru) gives a shit about the profession." But to be honest it's probably not his fault, probably higher ups have bind his hands on this.

The profession needs major reworking but the best they can give us is fucking warrior sheaths (which was REALLY a hidden nerf...since now my damn shield doesn't fit in my damn sheath and more). Overall, quit the warrior profession, it's game over folks.

[Lysander]

And BTW how does fucking getting your disarmed weapon back to your hand compare to this FUCKING thing...

You mentally give a sigh of relief as you remember that the Goddess Lorminstra owes you a favor.

...departing in 10 mins...
>
A touchy tidal spirit dives straight towards you, its corporeal form dematerializing into a jet of frigid water. The water hits your body straight on, but amazingly, does not damage your corpse. The water pools around your body as a cold tingling feeling fills your being. Slowly, the water begins to gather itself up again and reform into the tidal spirit, but the feeling remains.
>

>beseech 350
You beseech Luukos for some divine assistance.

A sense of peace and calm settles over the area.

Punctuating the sudden calm of the area, the sound of slithering is quickly followed by a long, sibilant hiss. Winding a sinuous pattern to your head, an impossibly large copper-head snake with emerald green eyes begins to hiss at you. "Theresss more liessss to ssssspread, and deathssss to ssssteal," it says, and then swiftly raises high into the air to gaze down at you. Faster than the blink of an eye, the serpent dives into your chest and disperses into a shimmering green mist that seeps into your skin.
You feel the touch of the hand leave your soul.

You feel a sudden jolt of nothing short of the raw power of divine intervention. For some reason, you cannot bring yourself to move quite yet, but feel relieved nonetheless.

GOOD DAY SIR!

[Stunseed]

< A warrior does make a badass defender character, though, especially when paired with a pure. The pure that gets stunned from a CMAN can get unstunned by the warrior. The warrior that gets stunned from a spell can get unstunned by the caster. Or unwebbed, unbound, etc. etc. >

Some innate ability, or do you refer to an oaken wand?

[Khariz]

I just don't see where this is coming from. I LOVE my warrior. I can kick anyone or any thing's ass one on one. I can manage about 3 to 4 critters alone before it gets too much for me. I can scatter packs of grimswarm and take them by myself without any help or problem.

I die MAYBE once to twice per month on average. I can survive in invasions with all the other big boys and girls without dying. Part of this game is the fact that not every profession can do everything by themselves. This is why I train in MIU and AS. I can open my vest pull out any spell in the game on scrolls and spell myself to the gills at will.

Going into a Grim camp or Invasion area? Great, get a wizard and a cleric to cast spells at me, and then augment myself with scrolls. It's really not all that hard. Evarin constantly espouses spell tanking, and lemme tell you, it works.

For anything other than a FULL Grim camp, or an Invasion, I don't need spells to be effective in my hunting areas. I use my wits and my SKILL to keep casters from casting at me, and keep things in RT. It takes me one, MAYBE two hits per creature to kill them with twohanded weapons.

Seriously, I fucking own. I have no problem with the way warriors are in Gemstone. I think perhaps either: A) People need to learn how to play better, with more skill and more tactics, or B) People need to stop thinking that all classes have to be exactly balance against each other and the game environment. It's just not so.

Warriors are fucking pwnage in a can.

[Lysander]

Defender character is such BS.... PS I know I'm being ultra negative tonight, but sadly all that I have said is fact...

Warriors do not make great defender characters, in fact thats one of the things we've been whining about on the officials. You can take a poll, what hunting groups or hunting pairs are best suited for hunting/making silvers. Sure as heck not a single warrior/something was ever mentioned. (although Rogue/something comes up a fair amount).

[Sylvan Dreams]

Defender character is such BS.... PS I know I'm being ultra negative tonight, but sadly all that I have said is fact...

Warriors do not make great defender characters, in fact thats one of the things we've been whining about on the officials. You can take a poll, what hunting groups or hunting pairs are best suited for hunting/making silvers. Sure as heck not a single warrior/something was ever mentioned. (although Rogue/something comes up a fair amount).

Then I suggest you reread the thread, because warriors definitely did come up.

[Latrinsorm]

Thats why I love Latrinsorm, he's the type of person who would consider being able to see or breathing oxygen as a feature and not a neccessity.Pures "have" to be able to immediately neutralize a swarm. They simply don't have the skillset to deal with an active swarm otherwise. Squares can run and hit without having to worry about being turned to pulp in a shot.
Manuever.... give me a fucking break ok? You can tackle shit or charge shit... really the only cool manuever I ever gave a damn was weapon bonding.Look harder. Try looking at some of Gib's posts about how his rogue is just as susceptible to charge as a wizard (A WIZARD).
You can take a poll, what hunting groups or hunting pairs are best suited for hunting/making silvers. Sure as heck not a single warrior/something was ever mentioned. (although Rogue/something comes up a fair amount).Evarin always brings up a warrior/sorc pair.

For a guy so keen on "fact" your posts are surprisingly full of hysterical hyperbole.

[Gnomad]

Warriors aren't weak. They're just lacking the flair that a lot of the other classes have. Having heavy armor, taking a hit, etc, just isn't all that sexy. It's the same DS roll as everyone else, except warriors get to say "Ooh a 300 endroll with a minor! Nice!" Being shin-deep in bodies would be a lot cooler if the bodies were more than "You also see a kobold that appears dead, a kobold that appears dead, and a rabid squirrel that appears dead."

That said, I like the way warriors are now. I haven't played since starting my new job in September, but my warrior had abilities that were just plain fun. It's easy to discount CMANs as "being available to other classes" or "not being 350" or whatever you want to say, but any good warrior is 2xing in CM. You should be able to play with a bunch of fun CMANs by the time you hit 50.

Feint - A great skill mechanics-wise, and makes you feel like the weapon-master you should be. "But Gnomad, every class can feint." Yeah, but warriors can feint better than any other class, and without even spending a single CMAN point.

Berserk - Yeah there's stunman and beseech and 1040 but berserk, again, doesn't cost points, and even my elf almost never failed as a master. It can screw you over if you use it in a 1 or 2 round stun, but you should be able to laugh at short stuns.

Coup de Grace - I love coup de grace, it's a gloriously brutal way to end a combat, with great mechanics for group combat. Still, I'd use it even if I didn't get a good AS boost afterwards, it's that satisfying to pull off. "But rogues can CdG too!" Please. Rogues can learn it and use it, but even at master, you need to reduce a foe to half HP before it can be used. How many rogues get into attrition battles on any regular basis?

Staggering Blow - I don't remember how reliably this activated, but it was so satisfying. When you see your pure buddy start to twitch because FoF is kicking in, turn and smack one of the baddies square into another room.

Twin Hammerfists/Headbutt - Fun and badass ways to take out the competition. Headbutt can even silence some casters. Bullrush or Shield Bash/Charge instead if you're boring.

and this is just what I think you'd enjoy. My warrior loves Warcries and other skills that make him a Marshall. I'd love Side-by-side too if it wasn't just some passive AS/DS boost and actually had some goddamn flavor.

Still, do I think warriors should get more flash? Yeah. I'd love a counter-attack ability; I think it really fits the class and wouldn't imbalance things.

I'd also love it if warriors had a flat chance to randomly have a minor follow-up attack (not related to weapon bonding). After a good hit, you see another opening, and elbow the kobold in the jaw/slam the halt of your pole-ax into the kobold's shin/etc for a low rank crit. Between that, bonding weapons, and weapon flares, it'd go a good way to occasionally have a "damn that was badass" attack.

[Ben 2.0]

Anyone who says "Warriors are fine as they are" are pure class GMs.

[Maerit]

Seriously, I fucking own. I have no problem with the way warriors are in Gemstone. I think perhaps either: A) People need to learn how to play better, with more skill and more tactics, or B) People need to stop thinking that all classes have to be exactly balance against each other and the game environment. It's just not so.

List your weapon and armor. I'm betting on something like a 4x claid that retails for about 40-50mil, and probably some bad ass incredibly padded plate that is 7x or higher.

I think perhaps either: A) People need to play for as long or as often as you have to afford the kickass gear that makes a warrior "badass", or B) People need to find a good partner to team up with -- I suggest a sorcerer.

Its very important that you guys keep your posts into context. If you are a warrior sporting some of the rare gear that changes hands every now and then, and you can kill things with an incredibly crit weighted 5x weapon of destruction that costs 80m to buy, cheers for you. Thats 1 out of about 100 players, and the other 99 ain't having a blast. A pure can go into a zone with 4x unpadded, crap off the counter at any merchant, and clean up. Sure, you can buy yourself a little security from maneuvers in the tough hunting areas as a pure, but its not KEY to your ability to survive. Spells, and knowing how to disable as a pure is key.

Any warrior over-geared should take it all off, get some standard stuff, and then test out their ability to "fucking own".

[Fallen]

How hard is it at end game to have 7x gear? If you're premium, how hard is it at/near endgame to have 7x flaring armor?

Spiked helmets, HCP greaves and helms were sold off the shelf. There is a difference between good gear and auction quality gear.

[Ben 2.0]

I have fun with my warrior regardless of gear, I'm never like UGH THIS SUCKS MY CHARACTER STINKS.

warriors are fun
could they be better? yes
are they as powerful as say sorcs or wizards? no

[Khariz]

I still think knowledge and skill are more important than gear.

My gear doesn't matter all that much if I concentrate on not getting hit in an hunting environment.

A castermob just arrived. Great. Feint, lock it in 40 seconds of RT with a Warcry or two, and then relax as I chose what I want to do to it. Oh crap, it's still not offensive. Okay feint or warcry it into offensive. Done. Okay, do I want to tackle and head it? Just plain head it? Leg it then head it?

Oh no, while I'm fighting castermob, warriormob comes in. Put the castermob in 20 more seconds of RT for good measure. Stance down. Warrior swings, splatter warrior in face with claid, search warrior. Finish caster.

I can type up shit like this for up to about 4 mobs, which I can keep juggled enough for them to not be able to take a swing at me unless I'm comfortable with them doing so. Those things you can't control, when they DO swing at you, or do maneuver you, is when it's nice being a warrior. I can spelltank myself high enough to make them miss when they swing at me most of the time. It's the hits that hit anyway where I have an advantage. I'm not lying on the floor bleeding with a 10 round stun. I'm laughing at the minor I just got on my head.

Talk shit about warriors all you guys want. I still think they are the cream in my world. Look, I wouldn't complain about improvements to them, I just think they are perfectly viable the way they are.

[AnticorRifling]

I've played a warrior til mid 50s and a mage to mid 60s, while it's not end game per say it did let me see both sides. I'll still say the mage had the upper hand.

[Khariz]

I've played a warrior til mid 50s and a mage to mid 60s, while it's not end game per say it did let me see both sides. I'll still say the mage had the upper hand.

I don't want anyone to misinterpret what I'm saying in this thread.

Wizards and Sorcerers are certainly more powerful that warriors. That's not even disputable.

I'm just challenging the notion that warriors are not a viable class. They have no problem leveling to 100 like everyone else and being a valuable asset in Invasions and Grim Raids. Add in spell tanking, gear, and whatever cherries on top that you would like, and warriors become fantastic.

What most of the "anti-warrior" crowd needs to realize, which I'm repeating for the 387294734958374593745th time in this thread, is that all classes are not meant to do all things equally well. Not every class needs a transportation ability, fancy crown control abilities, etc.

A square and a pure make a great team. I'm sure Evarin and Perigourd would both agree. And they are on opposite sides of the fence! A sorcerer on one hand and a warrior on the other. Both teamed up with the other class for a good portion of the time they are online. OMFG, working together in a role-playing game. Whodathunk?

Course...I know what's going through the minds of the anti-warrior people: "yeah, but if Evarin hunted alone, he's do just as well, whereas Debia would not." And here is where we would tread into my threads. Debia would, and the reason is, is that she understands Spelltanking, skills, tactics, etc. She's not some braindead hack that sits in stance offensive pounding attack and wonders why she's getting so badly hurt each hunt.

Warriors have to do one of two things to thrive in GS: They EITHER have to learn skills and keep casters and whatnot in check as to not get hit much (which Simu has provided the ability to do with Guild and CMANs), OR they have to have lots of spells and lots of uber gear to have the luxury of not haiving to WORRY about doing all that.

If you have BOTH skill and gear, you are a truly amazing warrior indeed. Only one is needed though, not both. Both makes you the cream of the crop.

[Maerit]

Oh no, while I'm fighting castermob, warriormob comes in. Put the castermob in 20 more seconds of RT for good measure. Stance down. Warrior swings, splatter warrior in face with claid, search warrior. Finish caster.

See, this right here still has me asking the question -- what weapon are you swinging?

I mean, I use an "auction quality" weapon, and I cannot kill a warriormob in 1 shot after it goes into offensive, even when its prone (been fighting a lot of grimswarm lately). I'll tell you what I use -- its a 4x coraesine fully bonded bastard sword, and even swinging it two-handed won't kill a warriormob in one shot. No, its not weighted like a claid is weighted, but its still a pretty great weapon. Now, if you're killing a warriormob in 1 shot after they go offensive, I'm thinking you have a pretty kick ass claid. I'm also thinking that warriors on general don't have a weapon that kick ass, but if they did, they'd be a lot more content with the state of the class.

Obviously it takes skill to keep things in check, and you know how to play. There's no question you have tactics to handle mobs, and some warriors may complain without ever exploring those tactics. But, you have to admit there is something to be said for spending millions on gear for a warrior, a cost that pures could probably avoid if they wanted to.

I'm not talking 7x standard run of the mill equipment. I'm talking special weighting, high enchants, 35+ million silver weapons and armor just to keep up with the standard pure in 5m armor and a 2m runestaff.

[Khariz]

Maerit,

That's the problem. The bastard sword. Any warrior swinging any maul, mattock, or claidhmore can kill and AsG 16-20 mob by swinging at it's head in one hit.

A 4x maul or mattock would do just fine, and is just as fast. The Crush vs Head criticals you get, even in plate is just so amazing. The claid, even on a slash, with the massive crit-weighting can accomplish the same thing.

That said *I* don't use standard gear. I'm just saying someone who does could do the same thing. Carry a 4x maul as a companion to that bastard sword. WHen a full plate mob comes out, try it. I think you'll like it.

ambush com neck
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a triton combatant!
AS: +518 vs DS: +317 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +1 = +237
... and hit for 58 points of damage!
You hear several snaps as the triton combatant's neck is broken in several places.
The triton combatant collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.

Again, no, that's not standard issue Mattock, but you can get the same hit with a 4x mattock with a slightly higher endroll, and some crush vs neck luck. Note I rolled a 1. If you had a 4x mattock and rolled a 70, you'd do about the same thing. Or leg the thing first, and then head it.

[Khariz]

You swing an oily black vultite maul at a greater krynch!
AS: +510 vs DS: +237 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +90 = +399
... and hit for 105 points of damage!
Neck broken.
The greater krynch twitches several times before dying.
The greater krynch shudders, then topples to the ground

(5x poison flaring maul)

You swing a jagged glaes battle axe at an Illoke elder!
AS: +490 vs DS: +331 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +97 = +294
... and hit for 103 points of damage!
Shot to neck sends the Illoke elder into shock which leads very quickly to death.
The Illoke elder rumbles in agony as he teeters for a moment, then tumbles to the ground with a thundering crash!
The Illoke elder shudders one last time before lying still.

(Greataxes too, standard Elder defense in offensive)

You swing a jagged glaes battle axe at a greater krynch!
AS: +497 vs DS: +312 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +18 = +235
... and hit for 57 points of damage!
You hear several snaps as the greater krynch's neck is broken in several places.

You swing a black ora maul at a greater krynch!
AS: +496 vs DS: +228 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +1 = +305
... and hit for 77 points of damage!
Neck broken.
The greater krynch twitches several times before dying.

(4x flaring maul, again, standard would be just as good).

You swing an enormous veil iron maul at an Illoke elder!
AS: +509 vs DS: +313 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +75 = +311
... and hit for 119 points of damage!
Brain driven into neck by mammoth downswing!

[You have 14 kills remaining.]
The Illoke elder rumbles in agony as he teeters for a moment, then tumbles to the ground with a thundering crash!

(8x flaring maul. Take 40 off the endroll, same thing could have happened)

You swing an enormous veil iron maul at a vaespilon!
AS: +520 vs DS: +435 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +79 = +195
... and hit for 92 points of damage!
Brain driven into neck by mammoth downswing!
The vaespilon falls to the ground motionless.

(not a plate mob, but no weighting on the weapon)

at
You swing a white shaalk claidhmore at an Illoke elder!
AS: +521 vs DS: +309 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +38 = +286
... and hit for 105 points of damage!
Incredible slash to the Illoke elder's neck!
Throat and vocal cords destroyed!
Zero chance of survival.
The Illoke elder rumbles in agony as he teeters for a moment, then tumbles to the ground with a thundering crash!
The Illoke elder shudders one last time before lying still.

(a claidhmore slashing a neck. Yeah, Shaalk is expensive. A 1x claid with the same endroll could do the same thing.)

I could post 8000 shots like this. Have the proper based weapon, aim your shots, and you will love your warrior.

[Lysander]

I still think knowledge and skill are more important than gear.

My gear doesn't matter all that much if I concentrate on not getting hit in an hunting environment.

A castermob just arrived. Great. Feint, lock it in 40 seconds of RT with a Warcry or two, and then relax as I chose what I want to do to it. Oh crap, it's still not offensive. Okay feint or warcry it into offensive. Done. Okay, do I want to tackle and head it? Just plain head it? Leg it then head it?

Oh no, while I'm fighting castermob, warriormob comes in. Put the castermob in 20 more seconds of RT for good measure. Stance down. Warrior swings, splatter warrior in face with claid, search warrior. Finish caster.

I can type up shit like this for up to about 4 mobs, which I can keep juggled enough for them to not be able to take a swing at me unless I'm comfortable with them doing so. Those things you can't control, when they DO swing at you, or do maneuver you, is when it's nice being a warrior. I can spelltank myself high enough to make them miss when they swing at me most of the time. It's the hits that hit anyway where I have an advantage. I'm not lying on the floor bleeding with a 10 round stun. I'm laughing at the minor I just got on my head.

Talk shit about warriors all you guys want. I still think they are the cream in my world. Look, I wouldn't complain about improvements to them, I just think they are perfectly viable the way they are.

Geez louise, READ your own post! How long did that just take to kill 2 critters?!?! My sorc can kill 2 mobs in 3 seconds SOFT Rt.

[Fallen]

So you want your warrior to kill as fast as a pure, and have the defenses a warrior does, along with the ability to keep hunting for as long as you like?

Me too.

[Lysander]

I don't want anyone to misinterpret what I'm saying in this thread.

Wizards and Sorcerers are certainly more powerful that warriors. That's not even disputable.

I'm just challenging the notion that warriors are not a viable class. They have no problem leveling to 100 like everyone else and being a valuable asset in Invasions and Grim Raids. Add in spell tanking, gear, and whatever cherries on top that you would like, and warriors become fantastic.

Noone is disputing viability. They ARE viable.
They ARE NOT equal. I can do all my grimswarm tasks with ease as a sorc, for my warrior it would be suicide.



What most of the "anti-warrior" crowd needs to realize, which I'm repeating for the 387294734958374593745th time in this thread, is that all classes are not meant to do all things equally well. Not every class needs a transportation ability, fancy crown control abilities, etc.

The problem is there really isn't anything great that a warrior can do that some other profession can do better. Hence look at all the people who play this game to maximum mechanical advantage for their merchanting (read: silvers for dollars business) needs. They all use either rogues,empaths, bards or whatever. Warriors just don't come up in these "efficiency" questions. Taking a hit? Gimme a break, how bout NOT GETTING HIT AT ALL.



A square and a pure make a great team. I'm sure Evarin and Perigourd would both agree. And they are on opposite sides of the fence! A sorcerer on one hand and a warrior on the other. Both teamed up with the other class for a good portion of the time they are online. OMFG, working together in a role-playing game. Whodathunk?


I have not done much partner hunting but I do know that typing guard <person> is almost completely useless.




Course...I know what's going through the minds of the anti-warrior people: "yeah, but if Evarin hunted alone, he's do just as well, whereas Debia would not." And here is where we would tread into my threads. Debia would, and the reason is, is that she understands Spelltanking, skills, tactics, etc. She's not some braindead hack that sits in stance offensive pounding attack and wonders why she's getting so badly hurt each hunt.

Warriors have to do one of two things to thrive in GS: They EITHER have to learn skills and keep casters and whatnot in check as to not get hit much (which Simu has provided the ability to do with Guild and CMANs), OR they have to have lots of spells and lots of uber gear to have the luxury of not haiving to WORRY about doing all that.

If you have BOTH skill and gear, you are a truly amazing warrior indeed. Only one is needed though, not both. Both makes you the cream of the crop.

Clearly this is not the case. The progression for my warrior through the AG guild or Grimswarm camps is incredibly slower then a pures. If you calculated a pures leveling time up to cap vs. a warriors the pures would cap much faster especially since warriors must do SOME merchanting or skinning or silver generating in order to purchase their weapons.

I have estimated that warriors take 3-4 times longer to kill their prey then a sorc. Sorcs need 1 cast MAYBE 2 casts to down a critter in general. Apart from Khariz's posts Claids AT MOST land 75% of the time on the head and thats with considerable amount of ambush and near cap, even lower on the neck. Further that percentage is degraded by the fact that a shot with a claid is not a guaranteed kill.

Mattocks are superior in crit killing capability then a claid. But even with mattocks I get about 1.5 swings to kill and thats with some setup (especially for casters) and using a 7x heavily weighted mattock.

[Fallen]

Have you ever hunted with any capped warriors? Most are open ambushers that kill everything in one shot. Liannonuel and Debia both kill things in 4-6 seconds, and much more reliably than my sorcerer. I cannot one shot Griffins, even with implosion.

Hell, with Liannonuel's toy he downs things at a faster rate than I can.

[Lysander]

So you want your warrior to kill as fast as a pure, and have the defenses a warrior does, along with the ability to keep hunting for as long as you like?

Me too.

I envy a pure's defenses. I KNOW I die far more times to warding spells with my warrior then I do against CM attacks with my sorc. Hunting as long as you like is misnomer, sure in theory if you have a ton of herbs you can hunt for as long as you like. But you're thinking sorc mentality. Warriors ALWAYS get some kind of bleeder or nerve damage that cuts their hunting short at some point. Plus, who cares? Unless you're in the game to make silvers you're just wasting time out there when your head is full, and for warriors getting from fried to clear takes longer then a sorc.


Have you ever hunted with any capped warriors? Most are open ambushers that kill everything in one shot. Liannonuel and Debia both kill things in 4-6 seconds, and much more reliably than my sorcerer. I cannot one shot Griffins, even with implosion.

Hell, with Liannonuel's toy he downs things at a faster rate than I can.

Were they hasted? Were they using super weapons? I don't even know how their RTs got down to 4 seconds unless their using very fast weapons (in which case I seriously doubt they were one shotting things). On average it takes about 9 seconds to kill something with a warrior. I've sat there counting with my warrior and other warriors and thats what it comes up as. I seriously doubt 4-6 seconds per kill average especially in OTF...
But if you got logs prove me wrong.

[CrystalTears]

You want warriors to perform like a pure, and frankly, that's asking for something that no game provides. All warriors are tanks, and are there to be the main target for mobs to hit, while everyone else is around him doing most of the damage.

The problem with this game is that many people want to be viable all by themselves and not rely on anyone else, or hunt with anyone else, while Simu will try to make this a multi-player game and have you work with others for maximum benefit.

In order to be completely self-sufficient, you'll have to work harder to get it, and I think that's true of pretty much any multi-player game out there.

[Lysander]

Have you ever hunted with any capped warriors? Most are open ambushers that kill everything in one shot. Liannonuel and Debia both kill things in 4-6 seconds, and much more reliably than my sorcerer. I cannot one shot Griffins, even with implosion.

Hell, with Liannonuel's toy he downs things at a faster rate than I can.

Were they hasted? Were they using super weapons? I don't even know how their RTs got down to 4 seconds unless their using very fast weapons (in which case I seriously doubt they were one shotting things). On average it takes about 9 seconds to kill something with a warrior. I've sat there counting with my warrior and other warriors and thats what it comes up as. I seriously doubt 4-6 seconds per kill average especially in OTF...
But if you got logs prove me wrong.

[Khariz]

My average kill is 10 seconds per mob. Feint, head. CLoser to 17 if I have to swing twice.

Is that a long time? Yeah. Does it matter to me? No.

I don't see why everyone needs to be as quick an efficient as everyone else. If you can get the job done without getting your ass kicked, who cares?

Edit: It still takes me 10 minutes or less to fry, at cap, in Nelemar. Do I really need it to be 5 instead of 10?

[Lysander]

Edit: It still takes me 10 minutes or less to fry, at cap, in Nelemar. Do I really need it to be 5 instead of 10?

Read as: It takes me twice as long to level as a warrior then a sorc. Throw in the fact that sorcs tend to have higher mental stats and thus better XP absorption and its more then twice as long to level! Yay for you!

And BTW, sorcs at cap pretty much don't have to worry about mana.

[g++]

Were they hasted? Were they using super weapons? I don't even know how their RTs got down to 4 seconds unless their using very fast weapons (in which case I seriously doubt they were one shotting things). On average it takes about 9 seconds to kill something with a warrior. I've sat there counting with my warrior and other warriors and thats what it comes up as. I seriously doubt 4-6 seconds per kill average especially in OTF...
But if you got logs prove me wrong.

I think Lian uses thrown weapons, and its pretty deadly with a 4 sec rt If I remember correctly. I guess my main question is if your so dead to rights sure warriors suck, why not just stop playing your warrior? I mean I tend to agree with alot of what your saying, but you come across like someones got a gun to your head forcing you to play a character that spends a bunch of time in hard round time. Warriors are the way they are because thats how they are defined in the genre. Some people enjoy the struggle but most dont. I dont think their going to code cman instantdeath, that kills with a 3 second round time for 20 stamina just so everyone can be even.

[Ben 2.0]

All warriors are tanks, and are there to be the main target for mobs to hit, while everyone else is around him doing most of the damage.


Where did you read that? WoW?

[Fallen]

Most warriors that want to kill quickly do so by HURLing, along with ambushing with their primary weapon.

[Lysander]

Ok look,what I'm trying to say is this is a game. Warriors can be weak and "challenging" like playing a game in "Bring it on" mode. I enjoy the challenge, but I also want to play something that is fun. Further this is a social game. And there is a modicum of compeitition between players. When you work twice as hard as the pure to get half the benefits the game ceases to become "challenging" and becomes "stupid" and not fun. I find pures to be too easy and I find semis to be unattractive. I like rogues but the question still remains, a warrior's plight can easily be solved by any number of the hundreds of suggestions by players on officials and here. Why not just make it fun for warriors?

[Fallen]

Read as: It takes me twice as long to level as a warrior then a sorc. Throw in the fact that sorcs tend to have higher mental stats and thus better XP absorption and its more then twice as long to level! Yay for you!

And BTW, sorcs at cap pretty much don't have to worry about mana.

Go ahead and factor in the time it takes to spell up, as well as to recover the mana it took to spell up for hunting. Your fact about sorcerers isn't going to be so definite once those fools that are ranting for Wracking to be nerfed get their way. I have enough mana to hunt at cap, but it is by wracking down to about 1 spirit.

If you dont and you plink, you're going to hunt much slower.

[Lysander]

Most warriors that want to kill quickly do so by HURLing, along with ambushing with their primary weapon.

You need a bandie or a returner to make hurling work currently (although they are looking into it). Frankly, a bow is better imho...but you should be a rogue then. Ambushing is not very effective in one shot killing contrary to popular belief. The aiming tops out at 80% or so and every shot has a chance of not being insta kill. Again, 9-12 seconds is the norm. With a returner perhaps 6 seconds at the fastest. But thats one play style and still takes twice as long as a sorc's 3 sec SOFT rt.

[Lysander]

If they change Wracking... the balance significantly changes. (although still in the pures favor). I'm curious I've never played a capped sorc before, you can pretty much stay out there forever wracking and at cap?

[Fallen]

Try hunting without uber gear as a runestaff using sorcerer on less than 5 spirit. There goes your whole, "Pures don't need good gear" rant.

Like others have said, if you're so thoroughly convinced warriors aren't worth the bother..then perhaps it is time to take your own advice?

[Maerit]

There's another picture being missed, probably not the most important picture, but it can be -- the journey.

Look at warrior vs sorcerer from trains 1 to 40. Then ask yourself who has more challenges. Averagely geared warriors will die less, and kill more effeciently than an averagely geared sorceror. You don't go around imploding every mob or casting dark catalyst, killing them with one shot. Using ewave at these levels is incredibly mana intensive, and less than ideal unless its a swarm.

Most train 40- sorcerer's will stick with mana disruption as their primary killing spell, and it takes 5-10 casts of MD to bring down a like-level opponent depending on their health. A warrior will usually knockdown, and brain the target in 3-5 hits.

Anything that has maneuvers or randomly gain spirit strike have a chance to knock a pure senseless in this stage of the game. Yet a warrior can usually take these hits.

I run a sorcerer/warrior combo myself because its necessary for my warrior who is 10 trains higher than my sorcerer to do grimswarm tasks. Mainly because open implosion+maelstrom+ewave make it incredibly easy to kill off entire camps. The sorcerer will not waste mana on anything else. Just ewave, keep everything disabled with their massive stun abilities through voids and maelstroms, and my warrior can mstrike then single attack twice, and repeat killing things fairly well.

Yet, if the sorcerer goes out to hunt on his own, it will take him just as long to bring down targets due to the reliance on mana, and the lack of insta-kill options at these levels. HOWEVER -- my warrior usually requires a great deal of outside spell assistance to manage avoiding all the annoying cuts and bruises that stack up and send him home way too early.

Its this stage of the game that keeps squares from getting anything more than they already have. Because they can dominate the early game, while pures are just more functional in the end game.

[Stanley Burrell]

You don't seem to get that Simu's written GS off. It's free extra money. Whatley has moved on.

Alright, C-Man. I'm pondering the truthfulness of this today. I think I might downsize to two characters (who sure as heck aren't Warriors) with a standard account for the next couple of months and/or years. If my logic holds, Warriors will indefinitely be helped -- If your ideas are the-bomb-diggity-word-up-G, then I'll be paying less; but still hunting more fruitfully with my two favorite non-Warrior characters.

Time to do item transferring, bah.

[Khariz]

I'm still not convinced that it matters at all if a full hunt takes 5 minute or 10 minutes. Lysander likes to call this "double" the amount of hunting time, but that's only true at this level.

If it normally takes you 15 minutes to hunt as a sorcerer in OTF, it'll take you lets say 20 as a warrior. 5 mins one way or the other isn't going to make or break your ability to socialize, do other things, etc.

I think that now, after all this talk, I have reached this conclusion: Warriors are more viable than Lysander thinks they are. I repeat, once again, that there is no reason that warriors need to be as efficient at killing all mobs as a wizard or a sorcerer are. It's OKAY if each mob takes 5-15 more seconds to kill. It's really not that big of a deal.

[g++]

Im with you Khariz, it takes my rogue a bit longer to hunt then my wizard or empath but I enjoy hunting my rogue more too. Not to mention my wizard and empath cannot usually load up to the brim on boxs, my rogue does almost every trip.

[AnticorRifling]

Im with you Khariz, it takes my rogue a bit longer to hunt then my wizard or empath but I enjoy hunting my rogue more too. Not to mention my wizard and empath cannot usually load up to the brim on boxs, my rogue does almost every trip.
That's more to do with race than class imo. As a giant wizard with self cast strength and a disk it was only the size of my containers that limited my box carrying.

[g++]

I was actually implying my wizard and empath run out of mana not space. More power to your wizard though heh.

[CrystalTears]

Where did you read that? WoW?
No, pretty much any game I've played. :shrug:

[Maerit]

I just want warriors to be able to dance in a swarm as effectively as... everything else. Semi's have mass disablers, and we all know pures do. Why can't a warrior get some way to put a swarm of mobs into RT, even if it doesn't mean knocking them over? I mean seriously, we're going to have to pick them off one at a time anyway unlike the mass effect abilities pures and semis wield, yet we still have zero way to disable a group of mobs outside of activating costly imbeds.

You might say we can survive better in a swarm without disabler than anything else, and I would most definitely disagree. Especially with the grimswarm model. I love having 3 lightning clouds over my head, stuck in 20 seconds RT due to ewave and having 15 mobs swinging at me cutting me to shreads.

So I ask, is it really too much to ask for us to have some mass disabler? A battleshout that gives everything in the room a manuever roll, and if they fail the roll they get put into RT based on the magnitude of the failure?

[Fallen]

Not old enough to make decent use of Mana Leech?

[AnticorRifling]

I was actually implying my wizard and empath run out of mana not space. More power to your wizard though heh.
Yeah I didn't really use mana to hunt. Hell I could keep wizard shields up for the duration and still have juice to gate back.

[Lysander]

I'm still not convinced that it matters at all if a full hunt takes 5 minute or 10 minutes. Lysander likes to call this "double" the amount of hunting time, but that's only true at this level.

If it normally takes you 15 minutes to hunt as a sorcerer in OTF, it'll take you lets say 20 as a warrior. 5 mins one way or the other isn't going to make or break your ability to socialize, do other things, etc.

I think that now, after all this talk, I have reached this conclusion: Warriors are more viable than Lysander thinks they are. I repeat, once again, that there is no reason that warriors need to be as efficient at killing all mobs as a wizard or a sorcerer are. It's OKAY if each mob takes 5-15 more seconds to kill. It's really not that big of a deal.

5 minutes adds up by ridiciulous amounts when you need to go hunting in and out thousands of times especially at post cap. You're just looking at the book's cover Khariz you need to open it and study it. Further, a sorc due to the tendency to pick particular races will probably absorb XP faster even a minute extra time over the long run means millions of XP and crap loads of time. Time you could have spent socializing developing your character etc. As a warrior I would need to spend (And pay $$ for that matter) much more time then a sorc to see the same results.

And the 1-40 Warriors rock! arguement just doesn't hold water. Because 1-20 is really nothing (takes a month or month and a half to get). and 20-40 is likewise relatively easy. It's more like 15 levels warriors have an edge over pures. The other 85 the pures have the edge.

[Lysander]

And Fallen, if I'm correct about who you are in the officials. You should be the last person on here to tell me to "move on" from warriors instead of fighting to improve them.

[Khariz]

5 minutes adds up by ridiciulous amounts when you need to go hunting in and out thousands of times especially at post cap. You're just looking at the book's cover Khariz you need to open it and study it. Further, a sorc due to the tendency to pick particular races will probably absorb XP faster even a minute extra time over the long run means millions of XP and crap loads of time. Time you could have spent socializing developing your character etc. As a warrior I would need to spend (And pay $$ for that matter) much more time then a sorc to see the same results.

And the 1-40 Warriors rock! arguement just doesn't hold water. Because 1-20 is really nothing (takes a month or month and a half to get). and 20-40 is likewise relatively easy. It's more like 15 levels warriors have an edge over pures. The other 85 the pures have the edge.


What percentage of the people that play this game actually do so to maximize the amount of exp they gain for every single pulse they logged in? I'd garner not a very high percent.

Oh, and you do realize that if you take longer to absorb your exp, you actually have more time to socialize, not less, right?

I still think you are making mountains out of molehills. In the grand scheme of things, if it takes one person 8 months of in game time (not 8 months of real life) to level their charater, and it takes me 8 months and two weeks of extra time (5 minutes adding up to 168 hour weeks over time), who cares?

It's not something that people will notice at all along the way, or regret when they are done.

[Sylvan Dreams]

If you want to point out other major weaknesses, how about this gem -- Squares are very gear dependant, more so than any pure class. And yet, Simu is very very touchy on releasing powerful gear. The warrior class is immesely limited by the fact that they have to spend millions more than other classes just to maintain their level of play as they move into harder fighting zones.

I wouldn't say that. You don't HAVE to have 10x weapon/10x shield/10x max padded armor as a warrior. It most definitely makes things easier, but it's by no means mandatory to hunt the same hunting grounds as anyone else.

Hell, what class doesn't hunt better with badass gear?

[Sylvan Dreams]

Any warrior over-geared should take it all off, get some standard stuff, and then test out their ability to "fucking own".

Up until a few years ago, my character hunted OTF with a PLAIN 4x shield, a 4x falchion (scripted, blessable) and 5x swcp padded plate (purchased at the original merchant for 900k).

I did alright.

Then I saw the light of badass gear.

[Lysander]

What percentage of the people that play this game actually do so to maximize the amount of exp they gain for every single pulse they logged in? I'd garner not a very high percent.

Oh, and you do realize that if you take longer to absorb your exp, you actually have more time to socialize, not less, right?

I still think you are making mountains out of molehills. In the grand scheme of things, if it takes one person 8 months of in game time (not 8 months of real life) to level their charater, and it takes me 8 months and two weeks of extra time (5 minutes adding up to 168 hour weeks over time), who cares?

It's not something that people will notice at all along the way, or regret when they are done.

You're calculating it incorrectly.It's more like 8 months for sorc (at POST CAP) and 10 months for a warrior (at POST CAP). And thats in-game time. If you expand it out those extra 2 months or 1440 hours or so playing 2 hours a day is more in the tune of 2 years + of RL time. Thats a whole lotta time.

BTW the above is figuring that in a 15 minute hunt, a warrior will do a similar hunt in 20 minutes (like you stated in OTF). In reality for levels below cap, the warrior will take twice as long to fry or longer depending on what the critter type is hunted and how well they tend to swarm. So for 1-100 the difference in time between the professions gets really big.

BTW BTW, sorcs (at least my sorc) can grab some 5x runestaff get some 5x robes from the player shops and they are all set. My warrior at similar level to get anywhere near decent efficiency will require better weapons and armor which requires merchanting or skinning or doing some other profit making. That drastically slows down hunting and encumberance stops me from hunting very quickly (sometimes before I can get fried).

[Fallen]

And Fallen, if I'm correct about who you are in the officials. You should be the last person on here to tell me to "move on" from warriors instead of fighting to improve them.

I post as Sardinus on the Officials, and have made many suggestions on how to improve them. None involve mass disabling abilities, and they never will. I prefer to offer constructive criticism whenever possible, not fairy tales.

[Stunseed]

You've wasted AT LEAST that much in bitching. Just so you know.

[Lysander]

You've wasted AT LEAST that much in bitching. Just so you know.

When you're asked to run a race with one leg broken while everyone is fine it stops becoming "bitching".

[Sylvan Dreams]

I envy a pure's defenses. I KNOW I die far more times to warding spells with my warrior then I do against CM attacks with my sorc. Hunting as long as you like is misnomer, sure in theory if you have a ton of herbs you can hunt for as long as you like. But you're thinking sorc mentality. Warriors ALWAYS get some kind of bleeder or nerve damage that cuts their hunting short at some point. Plus, who cares? Unless you're in the game to make silvers you're just wasting time out there when your head is full, and for warriors getting from fried to clear takes longer then a sorc.

Always get some kind of bleeder or nerve damage? You're definitely incorrect.


Were they hasted? Were they using super weapons? I don't even know how their RTs got down to 4 seconds unless their using very fast weapons (in which case I seriously doubt they were one shotting things). On average it takes about 9 seconds to kill something with a warrior. I've sat there counting with my warrior and other warriors and thats what it comes up as. I seriously doubt 4-6 seconds per kill average especially in OTF...
But if you got logs prove me wrong.

4 seconds is the base aimed hurled RT for many weapons. Without aiming, it drops to 3. 6 is the base aimed RT for some melee weapons.

It takes you 9 seconds to kill something? Are you serious?

PS -

You throw a zorchar spear at a war griffin!
AS: +488 vs DS: +310 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +62 = +261
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Shot knocks the war griffin's head back by pushing on the inside of the skull!
The war griffin crashes to the ground, motionless.
Glancing blow. Momentum carries a bright white zorchar spear with an elongated leaf blade past a war griffin to land nearby.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

[CrystalTears]

When you're asked to run a race with one leg broken while everyone is fine it stops becoming "bitching".
Maybe you just don't know how to play a warrior.

Just saying.

[Lysander]

Always get some kind of bleeder or nerve damage? You're definitely incorrect.



4 seconds is the base aimed hurled RT for many weapons. Without aiming, it drops to 3. 6 is the base aimed RT for some melee weapons.

It takes you 9 seconds to kill something? Are you serious?

PS -

You throw a zorchar spear at a war griffin!
AS: +488 vs DS: +310 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +62 = +261
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Shot knocks the war griffin's head back by pushing on the inside of the skull!
The war griffin crashes to the ground, motionless.
Glancing blow. Momentum carries a bright white zorchar spear with an elongated leaf blade past a war griffin to land nearby.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

God, it's like people only think at the first strata Look! I can post 1 clip and prove everything, thats just nonesense. I use THE and OHE's mostly. THE you get 6 sec RT depending upon your race after each ambush. Many times you miss your ambush. You throw in setups like feint and you're looking at AT LEAST 9 seconds. Sometimes like 20% of the time your first shot doesn't kill. and then you gotta go through another 6 round attack. I usually kill by the second shot. Very very rarely though I get unlucky and I need a third shot. That adds to 9 seconds for me and thats favorable someone else here said it takes 10 seconds on average. If you use OHE have fun seeing your kill rates go as high as 20 seconds.

I've never tried thrown, but although that one little clip shows a 4 second crit kill I can guarantee you if I add up that persons entire hunt the RT time will average about 6 seconds or so. And thats just ATTACKS. you have to calculate in for other variables like what did that person forgo in training to get thrown with polearms and then you're looking at secondary factors for time wasting (like dying).

[Stunseed]

Maybe you just don't know how to play a warrior.

Just saying.


Or your rather...odd attraction to Monks has you in some sort of daze that makes you suck horribly at hunting a Warrior, and an obsession with posting OMG MONK RULZ! threads at any given time of a day?

The game is designed on 4x gear. You don't need a super item to make it happen, it's called tactics. Stop running around in offensive and whining, heaven forfend it takes you longer than 1 second to kill a creature your train whereas you would cry like a bitch when it takes TEN critters five minutes to kill you.

[Lysander]

Maybe you just don't know how to play a warrior.

Just saying.

Everything I said about warriors is true. The arguement isn't about that Khariz and the other warriors agree with my points about warriors it's just that they are telling me that those points are fine to live with. I guess we just have differences in threshold levels of tedium and fun.

Monks do rule. And you're right Stunseed looking back on it. After Monks come out I can care less about warriors. I guess this whole arguement is moot then.

[BigWorm]

Always get some kind of bleeder or nerve damage? You're definitely incorrect.



4 seconds is the base aimed hurled RT for many weapons. Without aiming, it drops to 3. 6 is the base aimed RT for some melee weapons.

It takes you 9 seconds to kill something? Are you serious?

PS -

You throw a zorchar spear at a war griffin!
AS: +488 vs DS: +310 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +62 = +261
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Shot knocks the war griffin's head back by pushing on the inside of the skull!
The war griffin crashes to the ground, motionless.
Glancing blow. Momentum carries a bright white zorchar spear with an elongated leaf blade past a war griffin to land nearby.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

Isn't that spear from a bandolier? I think that supports his argument that uber gear is needed for squares near cap. Hurling sucks without a bandolier or at least a returner.

Also, I don't understand how squares can carry more loot back that pures. Encumbrance increases hard RT and lowers DS, which means you die as a square. Pures rarely do anything that causes hard RT. Near cap, almost everyone has a maxed STR, pure or square, so it depends a lot more on race.

[Warriorbird]

Pretty much. If you had wanted easy mode GS you would have played a sorc.

[Stunseed]

I know a character who carries 3-4 weapons to throw in OTF. Does quite well, too.

[CrystalTears]

Monks do rule. And you're right Stunseed looking back on it. After Monks come out I can care less about warriors. I guess this whole arguement is moot then.
You're assuming a fun level for a class that isn't even out yet (I'm not holding my breath). The only thing I'll agree with is that they won't be as gear intensive as warriors. BFD. Something is going to piss people off about that class in one way or another and then you'll be back again about balance for monks.

[Danical]

This is what I did with my warrior.

I contracted someone to make me +4% DF vultite spears.

I then made a warrior sheath that holds as much as possible (something like 10 lbs).

Each spear will weigh something like 2 lbs after the warrior sheath weight reduction modifier.

Bam 5 spears at 10lbs = dirt cheap bandolier.

sunder shield (ONLY 3 RT MANEUVER) + spear to eye = win.

It worked well for me until I got totally bored with my warrior but that's a different story.

EDIT: And, because warriors are designed to have cheap weapon skills and flexibility, I was able to train in Brawling to keep my parry DS after I hurled.

[g++]

This whole speed argument is absurd anyway, I spend the vaste majority of my time waiting for creatures to spawn or looking around for them. The 2 or 3 seconds differencial on actually killing them isnt that big a deal. I mean if your that obsessive about how much time your on a node your prolly OCD. One more point ,like alot of other people im sure, I keep my high end items on my younger characters so I dont lose them to disarm and itchs and I havent had trouble with rogues going toe to toe with anything in the game with just
4x gear. Cant speak for warriors cause Ive never played one.

[Danical]

I might just fucking play my warrior again after reading this thread.

Thanks Lysander!

[Khariz]

Everything I said about warriors is true. The arguement isn't about that Khariz and the other warriors agree with my points about warriors it's just that they are telling me that those points are fine to live with. I guess we just have differences in threshold levels of tedium and fun.


I've been thinking about this for about 10 minutes now.

Don't forget that I said I've capped one of each character in the game except bard and ranger and my warrior is by far my favorite.

Your levels of tedium analysis doesn't exactly work there. I find being able to run out into my hunting area and kill shit without having to worry about what spells I have on and being prepped to the apex just to hunt is really nice. Like someone said above, when you take into account the time it takes to spellup, maintain spells, etc, your hunt pretty much takes just as much time as mine. The difference is that a pure can multitask, and socialize while spelling up. Well guess what, that pure can cast all of his spells at me while we socialize too, then I can go into my hunting ground spelltaking and not even worry about getting hit either.

Lots of the things you say go both ways. I'm not saying your points are correct but I'm fine with living with them. I'm saying, mostly, that I don't think you actually HAVE a point. All of your "points" are based on what I think is a faulty premise, that all classes need to be balanced against each other, do everything that every other class can do, and hunt just as efficiently as every other class. I think the premise is faultly and therefore every other point you have made is faulty.

Look up "How to build a Syllogism" and you'll understand why I don't agree with anything you have said. I don't agree with the underlying premise.

Here's another Time based comparison for you. A sorcerer *can* rip through a hunting area casting 719 or 720 at everything hoping to kill it in one hit and run out of mana just as he fries. Or, he can take is slow and 705 things to death, using channel. On average its going to take at least 3 casts of 705, and infusing mana and skill using channel, will incur 3 secs of hart RT per cast. That's a total of 9 seconds of hard RT. On the other hand, I can wait till the same critter swings at me (which it will do within the first few seconds) and then can ambush it's head for 7 seconds with my twohander and kill it in one hit.

A capped warrior with max CM and 25-30 ranks of ambush really doesn't miss with a maul or mattock, especially if he's fully bonded to it. You 75% becomes more like 95%. Not much worse than fumbling or hindering a spells.

Back to the time thing. If it's a caster, I feint it once, and THEN ambush it's head. Okay 10 seconds. So either two seconds less, or one second more. That's not a big deal man. At all.

The only thing I agree with you about is that warriors have a deficiency when it comes to killing multiple mobs. Even then though, I am perfectly satisfied with myself. You just have to train right and use the right kind of weapons and tactics. Yes, I'm back to skill:

mstrike
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
With instinctive motions, you weave to and fro striking with deliberate and unrelenting fury!
You swing a white shaalk claidhmore at a triton dissembler!
AS: +530 vs DS: +291 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +46 = +327
... and hit for 189 points of damage!
A mighty blow cleaves a swath through the triton dissembler's back, taking the spine with it.
The triton dissembler collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
The deep blue glow leaves a triton dissembler.
A triton dissembler loses its focused look.
A shadow seems to detach itself from a triton dissembler, swiftly dissipating into the air.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton dissembler.
The powerful look leaves a triton dissembler.
You swing a white shaalk claidhmore at a siren!
AS: +530 vs DS: +413 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +84 = +242
... and hit for 149 points of damage!
Bloody slash to the siren's side!
Instant death, due to lack of intestines.
The siren gives a plaintive wail before she slumps to her side and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a siren.
You swing a white shaalk claidhmore at a triton executioner!
AS: +530 vs DS: +303 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +55 = +324
... and hit for 152 points of damage!
Neck removed, head falls to the ground.
The triton executioner collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.

(Killing three seperate critters with one mstrike.)

mst ele
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a water elemental!
AS: +539 vs DS: +266 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +74 = +389
... and hit for 138 points of damage!
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a water elemental!
AS: +539 vs DS: +257 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +92 = +416
... and hit for 149 points of damage!
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a water elemental!
AS: +539 vs DS: +242 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +72 = +411
... and hit for 142 points of damage!
The water elemental gurgles eerily and collapses into a puddle of water.
A water elemental appears somehow different.

(Killing one non-corporeal critter with one focused mstrike)

With instinctive motions, you weave to and fro striking with deliberate and unrelenting fury!
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a Grimswarm giant ranger!
By amazing chance, the giant ranger evades the attack!
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a Grimswarm orc warlock!
AS: +541 vs DS: +447 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +5 = +133
... and hit for 35 points of damage!
Skull cracks in several places.
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a Grimswarm orc cleric!
AS: +541 vs DS: +358 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +8 = +225
... and hit for 86 points of damage!
Shot to neck sends the orc cleric into shock which leads very quickly to death.
The orc cleric falls to the ground and dies.
The light blue glow leaves a Grimswarm orc cleric.
The guiding force leaves a Grimswarm orc cleric.
A Grimswarm orc cleric appears less confident.
The opalescent aura fades from around a Grimswarm orc cleric.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a Grimswarm orc cleric.
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a Grimswarm giant adept!
AS: +541 vs DS: +211 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +90 = +464
... and hit for 230 points of damage!
A mighty blow cleaves a swath through the giant adept's back, taking the spine with it.
The giant adept rolls over and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant adept.
A Grimswarm giant adept becomes solid again.
A Grimswarm giant adept seems a bit less imposing.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant adept.
The giant adept no longer bristles with energy.
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a Grimswarm giant barbarian!
AS: +541 vs DS: +251 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +24 = +349
... and hit for 98 points of damage!
Left leg ripped from socket at the knee!
A Grimswarm giant barbarian falls to the ground grasping his mangled left leg!
The giant barbarian is stunned!

(killing three grimswarm and legging another with one mstrike).

[Sylvan Dreams]

God, it's like people only think at the first strata Look! I can post 1 clip and prove everything, thats just nonesense. I use THE and OHE's mostly. THE you get 6 sec RT depending upon your race after each ambush. Many times you miss your ambush. You throw in setups like feint and you're looking at AT LEAST 9 seconds. Sometimes like 20% of the time your first shot doesn't kill. and then you gotta go through another 6 round attack. I usually kill by the second shot. Very very rarely though I get unlucky and I need a third shot. That adds to 9 seconds for me and thats favorable someone else here said it takes 10 seconds on average. If you use OHE have fun seeing your kill rates go as high as 20 seconds.

I've never tried thrown, but although that one little clip shows a 4 second crit kill I can guarantee you if I add up that persons entire hunt the RT time will average about 6 seconds or so. And thats just ATTACKS. you have to calculate in for other variables like what did that person forgo in training to get thrown with polearms and then you're looking at secondary factors for time wasting (like dying).

I generally don't use my CMAN's other than Surge. When I do, it's for flare or for playing.

I'll can go about showing a hunt from start to finish if you really think it's necessary to prove me right.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Isn't that spear from a bandolier? I think that supports his argument that uber gear is needed for squares near cap. Hurling sucks without a bandolier or at least a returner.

Also, I don't understand how squares can carry more loot back that pures. Encumbrance increases hard RT and lowers DS, which means you die as a square. Pures rarely do anything that causes hard RT. Near cap, almost everyone has a maxed STR, pure or square, so it depends a lot more on race.

Bandolier items - while definitely awesome and one of my favorite items - are hardly "uber" gear when speaking in terms of the caliber of the weapon itself. It's a 5x flaring spear - hardly the best spear in game.

So, yes, while a bandolier item IS expensive, the properties of the item are not all maxed out.

[Drew]

You're using those weapons against the Grimswarm Khariz?

[Lysander]

Bandolier items - while definitely awesome and one of my favorite items - are hardly "uber" gear when speaking in terms of the caliber of the weapon itself. It's a 5x flaring spear - hardly the best spear in game.

So, yes, while a bandolier item IS expensive, the properties of the item are not all maxed out.

This is incorrect the property of the bandolier is extremely coveted because of what it can do hence it's expense (read as demand).

My only 2 questions to really satiate me is. How long really does a sorc or wizard need to spell himself up during every hunt? Personally, my warrior uses MIU wands and it takes like 60 seconds at most to spell himself up (and thats with all the spells down which rarely happens).

Second question. In my experience at 50th level pures rarely die to CM attacks. At cap how often does this occur? Specifics would be nice? I'm pretty sure CM attacks are the number 1 killers of pures. To be honest the greatest threat to me at cap are crystal weapons (another square defect, since pures don't get hit),getting mobbed and chipped to death, THEN warding spells. Pures just have one weakness... a weakness that they have defenses against and quite frankly my guess is really doesn't effect them all too much from my point of view. What say you?

[Kull]

This thread reminds me of Joes Vs. Pros. It's on Spike TV. Warriors being Joes lol

[Khariz]

You're using those weapons against the Grimswarm Khariz?

No any more. This was before I took note of how much I was getting disarmed and imploded.

[Stunseed]

To spellup of 4 hours worth of spells, my wizard at 76 has to double wrack and use a full head of mana ( 750-ish mana ). In the end-game pretty much every hunting area has a manuever trap, and so you fall prey to it often enough.

I was selective of what I hunted as a pure and prolly died less than 10 times before 50.

[Kull]

Think warriors need a neat little skill unique to them. Sheath making just doesn't cut it. I'm Grumskull on the officials btw.

[g++]

This is incorrect the property of the bandolier is extremely coveted because of what it can do hence it's expense (read as demand).

Did you even read what you quoted?

[Lysander]

To spellup of 4 hours worth of spells, my wizard at 76 has to double wrack and use a full head of mana ( 750-ish mana ). In the end-game pretty much every hunting area has a manuever trap, and so you fall prey to it often enough.

I was selective of what I hunted as a pure and prolly died less than 10 times before 50.


You don't have to do that for every hunt. Thats 4 hours which is like 12 hunts. I doubt you die very often to manuever attacks. I seriously doubt it. And this just perusing through the deaths section.

[Stunseed]

I also have a shit-ton of nice gear. 14 pound armor for my Ranger, and the wizard's armor is weightless.....Among other things.

[AnticorRifling]

I don't spell up every hunt, I script an hours worth of spells and just run the script between hunts.

[Lysander]

I bet anything, 100 million silvers, that pures die far less then a square.

[Khariz]

I bet anything, 100 million silvers, that pures die far less then a square.

Seeing as how I basically don't die....yeah.

[Lysander]

Seeing as how I basically don't die....yeah.

Well there ya go. Pures need nerfstick or saturation CM attacks.

[Fallen]

I bet anything, 100 million silvers, that pures die far less then a square.

Honestly that depends on the player behind the character more than anything else. If a player properly trains and outfits their character, knows their limitations, and isn't an idiot, they aren't likely to do much if at all 1-100, especially if they pick easy hunting grounds.

For example Amiowell, a capped sorcerer, dies all the damn time. Why? She is an idiot.

Morelean, her former capped warrior hunting partner, used to die all the time. Why? He was an idiot.

I liked Morelean, but Amiowell never talks, so fuck her.

[Latrinsorm]

At this point I'm assuming Lysander is playing the "I'm going to make ridiculous claims to try to get the GMs to say something" card again.

[Khariz]

At this point I'm assuming Lysander is playing the "I'm going to make ridiculous claims to try to get the GMs to say something" card again.

I see we feel the same way about his opinions. Sadly, though, I think he truly feels like what he is saying is "fact" and whatnot, like he's been saying.

[Fallen]

I think we all agree that warriors need attention. Whether it is only to add a bit of substance to warriors, or even a new skill/ability to help make them more appealing to a wider range of people.

To say they are unbalanced is going too far.

[Ben 2.0]

Warriors will always be cooler than monks.

[Khariz]

Okay I can't resist. While we are talking about plate mobs, here's one in defensive. This cracks me up:

>ambush rad neck
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a triton radical!
AS: +558 vs DS: +557 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +87 = +126
... and hit for 31 points of damage!
You hear several snaps as the triton radical's neck is broken in several places.

[You have 10 kills remaining.]
The triton radical collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
The guiding force leaves a triton radical.
The warm glow fades from around a triton radical.
A triton radical seems slightly different.

[Some Rogue]

As boring as they can be at times, being able to take a beating like this makes it worth it sometimes:

The gas cloud begins to shake with uncontrollable power...
Suddenly, a spark of energy arcs out of it and strikes at you...
... 15 points of damage!
Hard jolt contracts every muscle in your upper body.
You are stunned for 4 rounds!
>w
A lesser moor wight swings a blackened twisted steel longsword at you!
Reeling and staggering, you barely dodge the attack!
>
A barghest pads in on ghostly quiet paws.
>
A greater moor wight waves a clawed hand!
An airy mist gathers around a greater moor wight and quickly spreads to cover much of the surrounding area. When the mist dissipates, you notice a slippery ice patch has formed.
>
In a brilliant display of flashing sparks, the gas cloud jumps north.
>
A greater moor wight points a clawed finger at you!
CS: +180 - TD: +142 + CvA: -18 + d100: +68 == +88
Warded off!
>
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
AS: +242 vs DS: +296 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +37 = +19
A clean miss.
>
A baesrukha sweeps in, his haunted eyes darting about.
>
A barghest charges at you!
AS: +229 vs DS: +296 with AvD: +49 + d100 roll: +74 = +56
A clean miss.
>
A greater moor wight gestures arcanely.
>
A lesser moor wight points a decaying finger at you!
CS: +187 - TD: +142 + CvA: -18 + d100: +81 == +108
Warding failed!
The moor wight suddenly transforms into a horridly grotesque image, inducing utter terror in your soul!
A gut-wrenching fear twists deep into your soul. You feel your body clutching in convulsions! You want to run away but cannot!
>w
You are still stunned.
>look

A sea of swirling grey mist covers the buckled, dark ground, seeping up from irregular crevices in the landscape to swirl in the constant whistling night wind. A few slabs of ancient stone lie scattered about the moor, pitted by centuries of moisture and stained with patches of black and grey lichen. [B]You also see a baesrukha, an ice patch, a barghest, a greater moor wight, a lesser moor wight and a greater moor wight.
Obvious paths: north, east, west
>
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
Fumbling aimlessly, you manage to deflect the attack with your shield!
>
A lesser moor wight makes an arcane gesture.
>
A greater moor wight points a clawed finger at you!
An airy mist quickly gathers around you, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +188 - TD: +145 + CvA: -18 + d100: +98 - -5 == +128
Warding failed!
The mist leaves the entire lower half of your body encased in a thick block of ice. Try as you might, you can't seem to move your legs!
>
A barghest charges at you!
You move at the last moment to evade the attack!
>
A barghest pads in on ghostly quiet paws.
>
A lesser moor wight points a decaying finger at you!
CS: +187 - TD: +142 + CvA: -18 + d100: +9 == +36
Warded off!
>
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
You barely manage to block the attack with your shield!
>w
You don't seem to be able to move your legs to do that.
>
A lesser moor wight swings a blackened twisted steel longsword at you!
You skillfully interpose your shield between yourself and the attack!
>w
You don't seem to be able to move your legs to do that.
>
A baesrukha closes his eyes and holds his palm out towards you!
CS: +212 - TD: +145 + CvA: -18 + d100: +89 - -5 == +143
Warding failed!
A baesrukha blasts you for 64 points of damage.
... 25 points of damage!
Neck erupts in a gory spurt of blood!
You are stunned for 8 rounds!
>
Moving to attack, a barghest slips on the ice and falls to the ground!
A barghest tries to bite you!
AS: +169 vs DS: +282 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +71 = -17
A clean miss.
>
A barghest charges at you!
Stupefied, you evade the attack by blind luck!
>
A greater moor wight points a clawed finger at you!
CS: +189 - TD: +142 + CvA: -18 + d100: +65 == +94
Warded off!
>
The block of ice encasing the lower half of your body melts away.

>
A greater moor wight raises one decaying arm in a series of mystical gestures, chanting an almost inaudible stream of prayers.
A cold mist seeps up out of the ground, slowly dissipating to reveal a luminous spectre.
>
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
Nearly insensible, you desperately block the attack with your shield!
>
A lesser moor wight swings a blackened twisted steel longsword at you!
AS: +260 vs DS: +271 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +8 = +32
A clean miss.

A baesrukha closes his eyes and holds his palm out towards you!
CS: +212 - TD: +145 + CvA: -18 + d100: +8 - -5 == +62
Warded off!
>
Moving to attack, a barghest slips on the ice and falls to the ground!
A barghest tries to bite you!
AS: +169 vs DS: +271 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +71 = -6
A clean miss.
>berserk

A baesrukha tries to bite you!
You stumble dazedly, but manage to block the attack with your dark blue kite shield!
>
Moving to attack, a greater moor wight slips on the ice and falls to the ground!
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
Nearly insensible, you desperately block the attack with your shield!
>
A lesser moor wight raises one decaying arm in a series of mystical gestures, chanting an almost inaudible stream of prayers.
A cold mist seeps up out of the ground, slowly dissipating to reveal a spectral black warhorse.
>
A luminous spectre claws at you!
AS: +209 vs DS: +279 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +36 = -9
A clean miss.
>
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
Unable to focus clearly, you blindly block the attack!
>
A barghest tries to bite you!
AS: +219 vs DS: +231 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +49 = +62
A clean miss.
Recovering from the attack, a barghest slips on the ice and falls to the ground!
>
A barghest flips herself into the air and floats down onto her paws.
>e
A baesrukha claws at you!
AS: +270 vs DS: +254 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +9 = +50
A clean miss.
>
A greater moor wight stands up slowly.
>
A lesser moor wight makes an arcane gesture.
A spectral black warhorse stomps his hoof in front of you!
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from a spectral black warhorse.
A barghest is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
A barghest is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves.
You are buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, and knocked to the ground.
You are pinned in place, unable to move.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
>
A greater moor wight gestures arcanely.
>
A lesser moor wight points a decaying finger at you!
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from a lesser moor wight.
You are buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, but are somewhat shielded by the previous waves.
>
A spectral black warhorse shakes his mane.
>
A baesrukha tries to bite you!
Stupefied, you evade the attack by blind luck!
>
A greater moor wight gestures arcanely.
>
A lesser moor wight swings a blackened twisted steel longsword at you!
AS: +260 vs DS: +255 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +78 = +118
... and hits for 2 points of damage!
A feeble blow to your right arm!
>
A luminous spectre claws at you!
AS: +209 vs DS: +233 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +38 = +39
A clean miss.
>stand
A barghest flips herself into the air and floats down onto her paws.
>
A greater moor wight points a clawed finger at you!
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
The elemental aura around you wavers.
>
...wait 4 seconds.
>
A spectral black warhorse stomps his hoof in front of you!
CS: +208 - TD: +135 + CvA: -18 + d100: +58 - -5 == +118
Warding failed!
Your thoughts run wild as your mind no longer feels bound by thoughts of reality.
Forced to stance forward.
>
A greater moor wight points a clawed finger at you!
A bolt of energy leaps from you to the ground.
>stand
...wait 11 seconds.
>
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
Nearly insensible, you desperately evade the attack!
>stance defensive
You are still stunned.
>
A spectral black warhorse shakes his mane.
>
A baesrukha claws at you!
AS: +270 vs DS: +120 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +75 = +250
... and hits for 14 points of damage!
Deft slash across chest draws blood!
You take a deep breath.
Recovering from the attack, a baesrukha slips on the ice and falls to the ground!
... 10 points of damage!
Pop! Kneecap wrenched.
>
A greater moor wight gestures arcanely.
>
A lesser moor wight swings a blackened twisted steel longsword at you!
AS: +260 vs DS: +139 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +17 = +173
... and hits for 7 points of damage!
Thrust slides along the back.
Cuts a nagging itch.
>
A luminous spectre tries to ensnare you!
Lying flat on your back, you barely deflect the blow with your shield!
>
Moving to attack, a barghest slips on the ice and falls to the ground!
A barghest tries to bite you!
You flail on the ground but manage to block the attack with your dark blue kite shield!
>
A spectral black warhorse stomps his hoof in front of you!
CS: +208 - TD: +135 + CvA: -18 + d100: +79 - -5 == +139
Warding failed!
Your mind goes completely blank.
Forced to stance offensive.
>
A barghest flips himself into the air and floats down onto his paws.
>symbol of return
...wait 4 seconds.
>symbol of return
...wait 2 seconds.
>
A greater moor wight points a clawed finger at you!
You awake startled as a greater moor wight attacks you!
An airy mist quickly gathers around you, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +197 - TD: +135 + CvA: -18 + d100: +93 - -5 == +142
Warding failed!
The mist leaves the entire lower half of your body encased in a thick block of ice. Try as you might, you can't seem to move your legs!
>symbol of return
...wait 1 seconds.
>symbol of return
A spectral black warhorse stomps at you with its foot!
You roll to one side and evade the attack!
>
A baesrukha stands up slowly.
>
A greater moor wight gestures arcanely.
>
A lesser moor wight swings a blackened twisted steel longsword at you!
You roll to one side and deflect the attack with your shield!
>
A luminous spectre claws at you!
AS: +209 vs DS: +90 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +53 = +197
... and hits for 11 points of damage!
Jarring blow to your back.
>
A barghest flips herself into the air and floats down onto her paws.
>
A greater moor wight raises one decaying arm in a series of mystical gestures, chanting an almost inaudible stream of prayers.
A cold mist seeps up out of the ground, slowly dissipating to reveal a luminous spectre.
>stance defensive
You are now in a defensive stance.
>
Moving to attack, a barghest slips on the ice and falls to the ground!
A barghest charges at you!
AS: +179 vs DS: +207 with AvD: +49 + d100 roll: +50 = +71
A clean miss.
A baesrukha sweeps in, his haunted eyes darting about.
>
A greater moor wight points a clawed finger at you!
A bolt of energy leaps from you to the ground.
>
A baesrukha tries to bite you!
AS: +262 vs DS: +182 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +34 = +139
... and hits for 6 points of damage!
Thumped your chest.
>
A lesser moor wight swings a blackened twisted steel longsword at you!
AS: +260 vs DS: +182 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +37 = +150
... and hits for 5 points of damage!
Weak slash to your right arm.
That doesn't even sting.
>
You don't seem to be able to move your legs to do that.
>
A spectral black warhorse shakes his mane.
>
A luminous spectre utters a phrase of arcane magic.
>
A barghest tries to bite you!
Rolling hurriedly, you block the attack with your dark blue kite shield!
>
A greater moor wight gestures arcanely.
>
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
AS: +242 vs DS: +158 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +92 = +212
... and hits for 12 points of damage!
Diagonal slash to your weapon arm.
Strike misses but bruises a few knuckles.
>symbol of calm
A luminous spectre claws at you!
AS: +209 vs DS: +156 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +78 = +156
... and hits for 5 points of damage!
Weak slash across chest!
Slightly less painful than heartburn.

A spectral black warhorse stomps at you with its foot!
AS: +249 vs DS: +140 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +35 = +177
... and hits for 12 points of damage!
Stomach shot lands with a hollow *thump*.
>stance defensive

A baesrukha claws at you!
AS: +270 vs DS: +134 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +16 = +177
... and hits for 7 points of damage!
Broken finger on your right hand!
>
A baesrukha speaks a few syllables of magic.
>
A lesser moor wight heads west, dragging you behind it!
The block of ice encasing the lower half of your body melts away.
>
A greater moor wight comes wandering in.
>
A barghest pads in on ghostly quiet paws.

A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
You flail on the ground but manage to barely dodge the attack!

A lesser moor wight heads north, dragging you behind it!

A greater moor wight comes wandering in.
>
A barghest pads in on ghostly quiet paws.

You stand back up.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>
A greater moor wight swings a rusty steel flyssa at you!
You barely manage to block the attack with your shield!
>symbol of return
...wait 1 seconds.
>symbol of return
Your surroundings blur into a white fog . . .

[Lysander]

Thing is I'll be making my monk more as a warrior then anything else. Always wanted to make a warrior with just a loincloth and wielding two weapons. With warrior as a profession this just isn't possible. With monks...maybe.

[Latrinsorm]

It's absolutely possible. It's shooting yourself in the foot, but you can do it. Not only that, you'll have the option of combat casting without that pesky armor hindrance stuff.

[Lysander]

LOL LOL LOL No No and No. Believe me on this one I've fixskilled every which way to get that Conan-esque look. You'll struggle up until bowels or equivalent but doable. Then toward endgame it becomes impossible. Like you try running around naked as a warrior in the Rift and you'll get owned so fast, remember that plate is like an extra +30 to TD as well. Even spell'd up it's just not possible and so excuriciatingly slow that it's just not worth it.

But with monks... mmm... sweet barbaric berserker ownage here I come.

[Warriorbird]

Totally doable... just requires gear.

[Stretch]

Quit Gemstone immediately.

[Snapp]

But with monks... mmm... sweet barbaric berserker ownage here I come.

You have a serious obsession.

[Warriorbird]

Monks don't care.

http://paigegreen.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/monks-07-06web.jpg

[Snapp]

http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/sophie-monk-click-los-angeles-premiere-QhUwlG.jpg
Monk with blonde hair.

[Danical]

Okay I can't resist. While we are talking about plate mobs, here's one in defensive. This cracks me up:

>ambush rad neck
You swing a massive rolaren mattock at a triton radical!
AS: +558 vs DS: +557 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +87 = +126
... and hit for 31 points of damage!
You hear several snaps as the triton radical's neck is broken in several places.

[You have 10 kills remaining.]
The triton radical collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
The guiding force leaves a triton radical.
The warm glow fades from around a triton radical.
A triton radical seems slightly different.

FALSE.

Radicals are in Brig. Look at the AvD.

----------------
Now playing: Confusion - New Order (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/confusion/track/new+order)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Danical]

Quit Gemstone immediately.

^^^

----------------
Now playing: Confusion - New Order (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/confusion/track/new+order)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[Stanley Burrell]

It's too early for this shit, therefor:


http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/sophie-monk-click-los-angeles-premiere-QhUwlG.jpg
Monk with blonde hair.

http://www.functionalfate.org/images/DaliCanghanPlasticChair.jpg

Monk on pink chair.

[TheWitch]

Lysander, you want to run around in a loincloth like Conan.
The game makes you wear armor so you're pissed.

You want to have crowd control, but seem to be (although you haven't said this specifically that I recall) one of those assholes who refuses to train magic because as a warrior you shouldn't have to. BS.

You could, for a very small investment relatively speaking, train a warrior to be able to use quake/ewave imbeddables. You could use trap components. You could <gasp> train spells enough - and I'm talking at cap here - to be able to cast ewave YOURSELF! You don't want to do that, cuz you be bucknekkid warrior dude! Then die in a fire.

You have very little clue about pures, you've made that abundantly clear in several different ways.

One thing you do seem to understand well enough, we own your loincloth wearin arse. Enjoy.

[TheWitch]

Oh, and just by the by.

I don't keep logs, so you'll just have to take my word for this, but my characters last three deaths have been directly attributable to CMAN's or maneuver attacks.

Most recent - griffin ride ending in head drop for level 3 (can't cast) and eight round stun. Crowd gathers, end is as you would expect.
Two before that - scout sweep, followed by swarm gathering, followed by cheapshot so she's on the ground in offensive in RT of like 30 seconds.
See ya.

This is a capped sorcerer, hunting OTF, with over 4M exp post cap and 60 ranks of CMAN's, mastered in disarm. I don't hunt without five outside spells, 601, 602, 618, 503 and 911. Depending on the alchemy crap load, 509 is necessary too. Without those outside spells, even considering the perfect stats she has now and the maxed bonuses from self cast, it's a crap shoot. A con hug was her fourth most recent death, instant crit, that canusually be avoided with 618 and 911 running.

Yea, it might look easy. But there's no small amount of work that goes into making it look easy. I, and others on this thread, take advantage of everything available. Do you?

[Lysander]

Oh, and just by the by.

I don't keep logs, so you'll just have to take my word for this, but my characters last three deaths have been directly attributable to CMAN's or maneuver attacks.

Most recent - griffin ride ending in head drop for level 3 (can't cast) and eight round stun. Crowd gathers, end is as you would expect.
Two before that - scout sweep, followed by swarm gathering, followed by cheapshot so she's on the ground in offensive in RT of like 30 seconds.
See ya.

This is a capped sorcerer, hunting OTF, with over 4M exp post cap and 60 ranks of CMAN's, mastered in disarm. I don't hunt without five outside spells, 601, 602, 618, 503 and 911. Depending on the alchemy crap load, 509 is necessary too. Without those outside spells, even considering the perfect stats she has now and the maxed bonuses from self cast, it's a crap shoot. A con hug was her fourth most recent death, instant crit, that canusually be avoided with 618 and 911 running.

Yea, it might look easy. But there's no small amount of work that goes into making it look easy. I, and others on this thread, take advantage of everything available. Do you?

But Simu doesn't see it that way. Hence the existence of redux and the like. They realized "Hey man you're a warrior dude, you CHOSE the profession because you DONT want to FREAKIN CAST SPELLS." Otherwise I would have picked a semi and be done with it. Ok we're going to add DFREDUX and make it so that you won't die instantly if you don't have every defensive spell cast on you in the game.

If there was a skill I can train in perhaps called warrior's loincloth skill, wherein I spend the exact same amount of points as I would to train in MIU and spells but the difference being this is a warrior based skill and not magic then I would be happy.

But currently you cannot survive without spells in Gemstone. You MUST use spells or be seriously hindered. This just doesn't make sense to me. As of this point there really is no "warrior" profession in GS every warrior is really a dual classed warrior mage.

Hopefully with monks I can create a build wherein mind over matter (not magic or spells) abilities will assist in creating a Conan-eqsue lointcloth wearing character. I can see how Conan would use sheer willpower to resist weapon attacks or do pseudo super-human feats. Conan waggling his fingers and waving a magic wand around is absolutely untennable.

[TheWitch]

But Simu doesn't see it that way. Hence the existence of redux and the like. They realized "Hey man you're a warrior dude, you CHOSE the profession because you DONT want to FREAKIN CAST SPELLS." Otherwise I would have picked a semi and be done with it. Ok we're going to add DFREDUX and make it so that you won't die instantly if you don't have every defensive spell cast on you in the game.

If there was a skill I can train in perhaps called warrior's loincloth skill, wherein I spend the exact same amount of points as I would to train in MIU and spells but the difference being this is a warrior based skill and not magic then I would be happy.

But currently you cannot survive without spells in Gemstone. You MUST use spells or be seriously hindered. This just doesn't make sense to me. As of this point there really is no "warrior" profession in GS every warrior is really a dual classed warrior mage.

How SIMU sees it, from my perspective and I do have a rogue and a low level warrior, is that the skills to combat a magical attack can be trained by non-magical professions, and vice versa physical attack. The pure will never defend as well as a comparable level square against CMAN's, and the opposite is true for a square with magic training.

But by stubbornly refusing to see that there are options available to mitigate the issues of crowd control that leave you miles short of being anything any one would call a "warrior mage", you're just fighting a loosing battle.

To flip the aruguement, why should my pure train CMAN's? To defend against cman's, of course. Still and all, after nearly 2,000 TP's put towards that effort, she still gets put on her can by a level 89 scout.

And I'm okay with that.

But for you, or anyone, to say warriors have no recourse against swarms when in fact you have as much if not more recourse against swarms as I have ability to train away CMAN weaknesses, is just burying your head in the sand. You can, with maybe 15 ranks of MIU, activate a quake amulet - which will put most things in the room on their arse for at least a few seconds.

Now, you'll say this isn't "warriorly"? Why not? How is it "sorcererly" that my gal mastered disarm? It's sorcerly because that's the best way to keep her precious twig in her hand. The same way being able to use a bit of magic is warriorly, becuase it may keep you among the living to fight another day.

[Stanley Burrell]

Down to a Standard GSIV Account with an extra character for my other non-Paladin semi as of today :)

I feel like the air is literally easier to breathe. No more of that Warrior shit. For now, anyway.

[BigWorm]

Oh, and just by the by.

I don't keep logs, so you'll just have to take my word for this, but my characters last three deaths have been directly attributable to CMAN's or maneuver attacks.

Most recent - griffin ride ending in head drop for level 3 (can't cast) and eight round stun. Crowd gathers, end is as you would expect.
Two before that - scout sweep, followed by swarm gathering, followed by cheapshot so she's on the ground in offensive in RT of like 30 seconds.
See ya.

This is a capped sorcerer, hunting OTF, with over 4M exp post cap and 60 ranks of CMAN's, mastered in disarm. I don't hunt without five outside spells, 601, 602, 618, 503 and 911. Depending on the alchemy crap load, 509 is necessary too. Without those outside spells, even considering the perfect stats she has now and the maxed bonuses from self cast, it's a crap shoot. A con hug was her fourth most recent death, instant crit, that canusually be avoided with 618 and 911 running.

Yea, it might look easy. But there's no small amount of work that goes into making it look easy. I, and others on this thread, take advantage of everything available. Do you?

Ok, I'll retiterate what Lysander was saying and explain why your counter examples are so weak. He said that pures pretty much only one weakness: cmans, while squares are vulnerable to crystal weapon flares, warding spells, and cmans. Yes, I said it. Squares get killed by cmans too. I'll repeat it again, because I know you've seen it a bunch of times, but you keep on ignoring this fact. Squares get killed by cmans too. This is because of the way the cman system works; either you know it (at rank 5), or you get owned by it. Griffin rides kill squares. Getting bounced by constructs kill squares. They die all the ways that you do, plus more ways that you are functionally if not actually immune to, such as warding spells.

[Maerit]

And its not just CS based spells. There are other spells that really mess with a warrior. Like clouds... oh lordy how much I love plate armor when a chain lightning cloud is over my head (in case you didn't know, chain lightning strike + plate armor = fried warrior). Would be lovely to dispel these bad boys like any spell casting pure or semi. Sure, I can run away, but why should a warrior be running away from a fucking cloud? Its a cloud! They should make survival factor out cloud damage.

How about curses and implosion? I bring this up because a pure can enter a zone with a 4x runestaff, and it will not impact their ability to perform based on the spell casting system. Where a square may feel the need (and I believe most squares do) to down-grade their ability to kill just to avoid losing a really expensive piece of weaponry to these spells. Master of Disarm should be able to make weapon chains and shield straps to secure their items from being imploded into nothingness. I mean, how is that over-powered?

Speaking of which, does weapon bonding return your weapon if a curse makes you drop it?

And manuevers kill warriors all the time. Any warrior under-trained for their gear, or encumbered and gets hit by a move they don't know (or can't) will be just as dead, or at least just as injured. The only saving grace here is, if the manuever doesn't out-right kill a square, they usually have a way to react while stunned (berserk, for example).

[g++]

Sure, I can run away, but why should a warrior be running away from a fucking cloud? Its a cloud!

I know how you feel, sometimes I get confused and try to hunt orcs at work. Reality and fantasy are hard to distinguish sometimes.

[CrystalTears]

If you're walking around with a lightening rod and it starts to thunder, you're going to get shelter rather than stand there with the steel and say "It's just a cloud!"

[Lysander]

I didn't realize that some of you didn't understand some of critical points of the warrior's problems. A quick overview.

Square weakness: 0-Cap
---------------------------

0-30 From descending order of lethality. Keep in mind this is just my experience, and depends heavily on what you hunt and how your trained.

1.) CMANs
2.) Plinking
3.) warding spells

30-70

1.) Warding spells
2.)Cmans
3.)Plinking

70-90 (mostly Rift)

1.) Warding spells
2.) Warding spells
3.) Plinking
4.) Other environ cmans

90-Cap

1.) Warding/CMANs
2.) Plinking
3.) Enviornment CMANs.

Further, by weakness I mean I get consistently killed above and beyond what my sorc and other sorcs of a similar level get killed by. Frankly, I think sorcerers die LESS to CMAN attacks then to warriors by the nature of their ability to kill (and thus disable) en masse.

In other words, to all the pures who are up at arms about me. I just don't think you understand the warrior's plight.

[Maerit]

If you're walking around with a lightening rod and it starts to thunder, you're going to get shelter rather than stand there with the steel and say "It's just a cloud!"

Hmm...

The point has eluded you.

I like how everyone other than a square has a way to remove clouds, while a square has only the option to run from them. Since we can't remove them, lets make a skill that mitigates environmental damage -- SURVIVAL -- mitigate cloud damage.

[CrystalTears]

No, I think you're fighting for the wrong causes for warriors, since not everyone wants to run around in speedos with a sword and be able to be immortal to other mobs.

[Maerit]

No, I think you're fighting for the wrong causes for warriors, since not everyone wants to run around in speedos with a sword and be able to be immortal to other mobs.

edit -- After re-reading this, you were probably responding to Lysander...

However,

I do not think the warrior class is doomed, nor is its design inately flawed. I do, however, feel that every class has a weakness and a way to compensate, and the cost for a warrior to compensate for their weaknesses is a great deal higher than the cost for a pure in both silvers and training.

A pure is not going to have to spend the coin for the gear. They are not going spend as much coin for the imbeddibles, or the scrolls, or the constant "tipping" of other pures to provide them with the necessary spells. Not to mention the need to train in abilities to use these items, which is not only cheaper for a pure, but typically part of the training routine.

Train in spells? Not only is that incredibly hard to do for a warrior, but casting ewave, self-mana? Now we're talking excessive training in harness power as well, and the likelyhood that it will fail to cast due to plate hinderance. I don't think that compares to trainig CM for disarm immunity, nor should it. Training in arcane symbols and MIU is pretty much a utility training path for every character in the game. Yet a sorcerer or a wizard isn't going to spend 50k a day buying ewave imbeddibles. Nor will they spend outrageous amounts of money on unlocked scrolls, or potions, or crystals... ect ect.

Seriously though, I can handle that. Its the stupid non-sensical things that I can't abide with. Like having to use a standard 250k weapon which hinders your ability to hunt in OTF because your nice expensive weapon that you rely on (which a Pure won't have to dish out the coin for) might get disarmed, and then it might get imploded. Why the hell should a warrior not have a weapon chain to prevent this type of thing from happening? Weapon bonding was a good step in the right direction, but it still lends to risk that most warriors aren't interested in taking.

Let me just put this into perspective. You are a sorcerer, and you hunt in OTF. Yet, you cannot ever cast implosion because if you do, there is a chance that some mob will steal that spell from your brain and make it so you can never cast it again. To warriors, their weapons can as precious as your most powerful spell, and for there to be a chance it can be taken away in an instant seems stupid to me. Especially given that someone may have spent months bonding fully to said weapon, and boom implode please start over... is crappy.

And clouds, well they just rile me up because when I hunt with my sorcerer he just dispels them and keeps killing, but my warrior, who has skills in survival and takes no damage from the evironment, can't stand his ground against any form of a cloud... seems silly.

[TheWitch]

You guys are spot on, and I agree with you, about the mechanics of item loss in places like OTF. It sucks.

The problem being, without any kind of breakage, there aren't a lot of options for item removal. Hence few rocking new items come in, hence the prices go insane on the ones that do exist. I used to be against breakage, now not so much.

The mechanics of spell burst also suck, and both of those things feel decidedly anti-square, you'll get no arguement from me there.

And yes, my sorcerer does have very few problems - I'm fully aware its not just pures that die to CMAN's. However, Lysander, I would point out you specifically asked players of pures to 'fes up to the actual death rate to CMAN's. So, whatever on that.

I'm also fully aware of who it is my character is animating to walk out of OTF - and it ain't other sorcerers. It's squares and semi's. I did say, we own your loinclouted backsides, didn't I?:yes:

The thing is though, to have unrealistic expectations about what can and will be done to mitigate these issues is just going to frustrate you.

In the meantime, what I'm suggesting is to stop hanging on to these unrealistic notions of 100% non-magical squares. The fact is, you will benefit greatly from magic and to wear magic you need magic training. The fact is, to achieve crowd control within existing mechanics, you need an AE spell. Which you can get in abundance easily (I just made some for someone yesterday), and that same bit of magical training you have for spell wearing also gives you the skill to use the imbeddable. No ones suggesting 1x in these skills, that would be the warrior mage and you don't need anywhere near that to reap some benefit.

You don't want to do this, you think it's against the stereotype of the warrior, you want to be completely self-sufficient and not have to ask/pay for people to do things for you? Then you're totally playing the wrong game.

My warrior, level 6, is taking one rank each level in either MIU or AS. I intend to stop when she has 25 ranks of each, assuming I get her that far. I am not playing her as some magical being - she's going to be pummeling shit with a claid eventually. But I accept and can understand and live with the need for that training in the event I hunt her in the Temple, lets say.

Give in to the magic. You know you wanna.

[Maerit]

You don't want to do this, you think it's against the stereotype of the warrior, you want to be completely self-sufficient and not have to ask/pay for people to do things for you? Then you're totally playing the wrong game.

And here I think is Lysander's problem, and lack of inventiveness. You don't have to play a warrior with imbeddibles like a warrior rubbing a stickpen. Make it an RP action. Do something other than rub that armband.

Maybe you have the item imbedded with the right action, I dunno... tap ok? And get tremors or quake. Now, you build it into a little script, something like this --

put roar %1
put stomp
put tap bracer

Now you're going to roar, tap a bracer, while stomping and the ground suddenly shakes causing things to fall over. Hurray! You just role-played your way to having a groundstomp ability.

Its fine, and I think necessary in this game setting otherwise warriors who did get spells would be insane. However, the little things!! Must fix... cannot abide by lack of logic!!

[Gnomad]

Now you're going to roar, tap a bracer, while stomping and the ground suddenly shakes causing things to fall over. Hurray! You just role-played your way to having a groundstomp ability.Or, more likely, you just looked like a total douchebag.

[Maerit]

Or, more likely, you just looked like a total douchebag.

So you are discouraging role-play in a text-based role-playing game?

[BigWorm]

And here I think is Lysander's problem, and lack of inventiveness. You don't have to play a warrior with imbeddibles like a warrior rubbing a stickpen. Make it an RP action. Do something other than rub that armband.

Maybe you have the item imbedded with the right action, I dunno... tap ok? And get tremors or quake. Now, you build it into a little script, something like this --

put roar %1
put stomp
put tap bracer

Now you're going to roar, tap a bracer, while stomping and the ground suddenly shakes causing things to fall over. Hurray! You just role-played your way to having a groundstomp ability.

Its fine, and I think necessary in this game setting otherwise warriors who did get spells would be insane. However, the little things!! Must fix... cannot abide by lack of logic!!

In OTF, those extra two actions might be enough to get you killed. But I see you point. However, I kind of feel that it should be possible to have a warrior that doesn't learn many, if any magic skills. I think its like before the change to GS4 when pures complained about having to use sword and a board, so they made the runestaff system which allowed them to use those instead, but they still had to option to learn edged or brawling, etc.

[Fallen]

As good as someone is with a sword, Magic is ...well, it's magic. MAGIC.

Magic > Swords

[Lysander]

As good as someone is with a sword, Magic is ...well, it's magic. MAGIC.

Magic > Swords

This is actually a very new concept, and applies almost exlusively to RPG games for some reason. I think it has to do with the fact that so many of these game designers were weak nerdy folks that got picked on by big burly football players. But anyhow, in almost all hollywood films or even fantasy books for that matter the hero is usually the sword wielding warrior who saves the princess from the evil wizard that lives in the dark tower guarded by the hundred headed dragon etc. etc...

And the warrior usually hacks the wizard's head off. This was classic fantasy literature and general popular culture. Recently everyone whos into this niche genre is like MAGIC MAGIC!! where is the MAGIC!! But I think with the new string of games coming out and the strange "get real" culture of the newer generations, magic and sorcery will slowly fade into the backdrop and swords and armor and more "real" fantasy will come into the foreground.

[Lysander]

And I'm going to go ahead and say squares die more to CMANs then pures do. After thinking about it I do die a great deal to CMANs, it may not be the insta death kill one shots but even annoying 2 round stunners can lead to a slow death, especially since berserking out means a higher risk of death.

Plus, squares spend more time with their opponents in combat which equates to a greater chance for those opponents to do a CMAN. Further, especially in a swarm, we don't have a mass room disabling ability which just means more CMAN % chances.

If we add up these factors , EVEN THOUGH the % chance of a square to fail a save against a CMAN is lower then the PURE, the shear amount of times the square has to face a CMAN (essentially more rolls of the dice) make up for it.

That and the crystal weapons just zap my plate wearing ass to oblivion.

[Ben 2.0]

Hopefully with monks I can create a build wherein mind over matter (not magic or spells) abilities will assist in creating a Conan-eqsue lointcloth wearing character. I can see how Conan would use sheer willpower to resist weapon attacks or do pseudo super-human feats. Conan waggling his fingers and waving a magic wand around is absolutely untennable.

Conan would multiacc and have his wizard dispel it

http://www.virginmedia.com/microsites/movies/slideshow/top-ten-movie-wizards/img_5.jpg

[TheWitch]

However, I kind of feel that it should be possible to have a warrior that doesn't learn many, if any magic skills. I think its like before the change to GS4 when pures complained about having to use sword and a board, so they made the runestaff system which allowed them to use those instead, but they still had to option to learn edged or brawling, etc.

It is possible. You then simply lack effective crowd control and the abillity to wear spells in spellburst areas.

Square one, in other words.

[Lysander]

God if you can only know what squares have to go through. I doubt you even have the almost superhuman finger dexterity and macroing skills neccessary to play a warrior for 5 minutes.

[Stunseed]

Really? I play a square in plat which is 10x hardcore in comparison, and I just use tactics plus mstriking. I'm also in Sunfist which is swarm central.

[Sylvan Dreams]

God if you can only know what squares have to go through. I doubt you even have the almost superhuman finger dexterity and macroing skills neccessary to play a warrior for 5 minutes.


You are so depressing about how much you think warriors suck that there is simply no other response than this:

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/2001819576783355739_rs.jpg


Yes, warriors have their issues, but they're not the barely playable class you make it sound like.

[BigWorm]

It is possible. You then simply lack effective crowd control and the abillity to wear spells in spellburst areas.

Square one, in other words.

So basically you can't.

I don't play a warrior, but I do play a rogue. I'm a pretty magical rogue, so I wouldn't make the choice to do so, but I think it should be possible to play a square with little to no magic skills in this game. It should be harder, but not insanely difficult like it is now to do so. I just understand why some people want that option.

[Stanley Burrell]

On-topic:


http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/2001819576783355739_rs.jpg

At first, I thought the whole web kitty thing was going to be a quickly dying trend. It lives though. It is the one thing that can survive the Apocalypse. It has gotten so direly severe, that I am somewhat amused by these images now.

The innocent shall suffer ... Big time.

[Warriorbird]

I think it should be possible to play a square with little to no magic skills in this game.

It is quite possible. You just can't do it and have three second soft roundtime instant room killing spells.

[Sylvan Dreams]

It is quite possible. You just can't do it and have three second soft roundtime instant room killing spells.

Not only that, but on top of little to no magical ability, Lysander wants said warrior to be able to hunt totally armorless AND have the mass destruction capability of a sorcerer.

[Gnomad]

So you are discouraging role-play in a text-based role-playing game?You can roar and stomp and "role-play" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that your character is a manchild who is using a magic armband to pretend that he can stomp the ground hard enough to make someone fall over.

[Maerit]

You can roar and stomp and "role-play" all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that your character is a manchild who is using a magic armband to pretend that he can stomp the ground hard enough to make someone fall over.

I love it. Another uninventive, or uncreative roleplayer. Can't you step outside the box? Does everything have to fall into your perfectly mechanical and logical understanding of this game? This isn't world of warcraft, roleplaying is acceptable here. And until warriors are given non-magical tools for things like crowd control, the only way they can maintain the appearance of a physical player is by masking their magical actions with emotes.

I hope there aren't more elitist gamers in this game. The last thing we need is more people bashing creativity.

[CrystalTears]

http://www.dvdplaza.fi/reviews/images/heman46_000.jpg

[Maerit]

http://www.dvdplaza.fi/reviews/images/heman46_000.jpg

That brought a smile to my face!

Good stuff.

[Latrinsorm]

LOL LOL LOL No No and No. Believe me on this one I've fixskilled every which way to get that Conan-esque look. You'll struggle up until bowels or equivalent but doable. Then toward endgame it becomes impossible. Like you try running around naked as a warrior in the Rift and you'll get owned so fast, remember that plate is like an extra +30 to TD as well. Even spell'd up it's just not possible and so excuriciatingly slow that it's just not worth it. Learn your own spells and you'll more than make up for your TD issues. If you want to say that a warrior without spells or armor is really hard, then sure. FYI, it's also hard to play a warrior without maneuvers or weapon skills, or without ever training in PF, or typing only with one finger, or with your nose.

A warrior with armor and no spells is viable.
A warrior with no armor and spells is viable.

Your insistence to the contrary is simply incorrect.

[Khariz]

I love it. Another uninventive, or uncreative roleplayer. Can't you step outside the box? Does everything have to fall into your perfectly mechanical and logical understanding of this game? This isn't world of warcraft, roleplaying is acceptable here. And until warriors are given non-magical tools for things like crowd control, the only way they can maintain the appearance of a physical player is by masking their magical actions with emotes.

I hope there aren't more elitist gamers in this game. The last thing we need is more people bashing creativity.

I use my old Mithril Juggernaught pin to pretend I'm hungry or that I have really bad gas. People usually laugh, as they can't see me rubbing the pin. They just see rumbling coming from me.

[Lysander]

A warrior with armor and no spells is viable.
A warrior with no armor and spells is viable.

Your insistence to the contrary is simply incorrect.

Ok hold on...back up...

I have tried using 10x DB items. I have tried using self-mana haste items. I have tried with nearl 7 or 8 fixskill potions. PLEASE tell me how this can be done because I'm crazy eager to know.

Manuevers ? I've played nearly a decade without manuevers... hell I even played WITHOUT REDUX. It was called GSIII. I still remember when Kuromaku said these little words, "Spells are like a warrior's bulletproof vest". Oh GOD the HATE.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Ok hold on...back up...

I have tried using 10x DB items. I have tried using self-mana haste items. I have tried with nearl 7 or 8 fixskill potions. PLEASE tell me how this can be done because I'm crazy eager to know.

Manuevers ? I've played nearly a decade without manuevers... hell I even played WITHOUT REDUX. It was called GSIII. I still remember when Kuromaku said these little words, "Spells are like a warrior's bulletproof vest". Oh GOD the HATE.

Without spells you'll have to change tactics - feint, hide, run away, kill as quickly as possible. If you are totally dispelled you simply do not have the luxury of time for a complete setup. You cannot let them get a single cast off on you because it WILL succeed and it will probably kill you.

With spells (and I don't mean casting spells, I mean wearing spells) you'll have the luxury of a bit more time to do a setup and not have to rush so hard for the kill. Hunting like level (at least, in a spellburst area), without a huge TP investment, wearing spells gives you a chance at warding the spell. You're not going to be guaranteed to be safe from the casts.

With casting spells, hell, I really don't know. You'll have dumped a shitload of TP's and sacrificed a lot of skills for not much in return (silvers, anyone? or maybe some light blues).

[AnticorRifling]

You could always just play a warmage.

[Some Rogue]

You could always just play a warmage.

Why would anyone want to play a retard?

[AnticorRifling]

Touche.

[Lysander]

Without spells you'll have to change tactics - feint, hide, run away, kill as quickly as possible. If you are totally dispelled you simply do not have the luxury of time for a complete setup. You cannot let them get a single cast off on you because it WILL succeed and it will probably kill you.

With spells (and I don't mean casting spells, I mean wearing spells) you'll have the luxury of a bit more time to do a setup and not have to rush so hard for the kill. Hunting like level (at least, in a spellburst area), without a huge TP investment, wearing spells gives you a chance at warding the spell. You're not going to be guaranteed to be safe from the casts.

With casting spells, hell, I really don't know. You'll have dumped a shitload of TP's and sacrificed a lot of skills for not much in return (silvers, anyone? or maybe some light blues).

Yeah thats exactly what I thought.... until it didn't work. It seems like it's plausible in theory but in practice it's not viable, theres too many factors getting in the way (and what you're really hoping for is great die rolls). I really think the game was designed for a warrior using full plate and spelled up towards the end game.

[Lysander]

BTW my dream character when Monks come out.

http://arazon-artstudio.de/bhuntress1000.jpg

Notice nothing but a Katana. Probably won't even need the bra. Probably still need the bikini bottom for posterity's sake. Anyone know if they got bikini bottoms as a fluff item?

Notice she's using some kind of force power pull to draw her enemies in.

[CrystalTears]

BTW my dream character when Monks come out.
You really need to let it go until they actually come out and you know whether you can run around in your underwear or not when you hunt.

Notice she's using some kind of force power pull to draw her enemies in.
She is? Oh you mean her boobs? Yeah, that'll draw anyone to her. :tongue:

By the way, Some Rogue and I thought you wanted to be Conan, not She-ra.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Jemah/CAD/underprotected.jpg

[Lysander]

You see it's 2 fold, first my need to liberate myself after the insane 12 year run in Full Plate armor. And finally, the need to satiate my arousal for big-breasted giggling airheads that can give you a vivesection twice before hitting the ground... drool....

[Stanley Burrell]

How in fack's sake could you have tits like that and do aerodynamic ninja shit? I'll re-grow my manboobs if someone who looks exactly like that tells me it's possible, tho.

[Lysander]

How in fack's sake could you have tits like that and do aerodynamic ninja shit? I'll re-grow my manboobs if someone who looks exactly like that tells me it's possible, tho.

You see thats the best part. I'm going to get my bras scripted so whenever I do my ninja attack my tits jiggle wildly.

[CrystalTears]

LOL! A scripted bra. Good luck with that.

Please tell me you're just fucking with us, because I'm in denial that you could be this stupid.

[Some Rogue]

Is this the look you're going for?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/Princess.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

You see thats the best part. I'm going to get my bras scripted so whenever I do my ninja attack my tits jiggle wildly.

I have great respect for someone who has single-handedly garnered the entire hatred of an unofficial MUD web-based bulletin board based upon their fetish of monks.

That being said, I'm just trying to encourage you to post more stupid shit because I'm desperate, lonely, mad at the world, and have too much free time and am "in between" jobs for a year and a half.

[Latrinsorm]

I have tried using 10x DB items. I have tried using self-mana haste items. I have tried with nearl 7 or 8 fixskill potions. PLEASE tell me how this can be done because I'm crazy eager to know.I can offer you quite a few training plans (most of which invole maneuvering, sorry). I can't play the game for you any more than I can hit a 90 MPH fastball........ but I know that it's possible.

GSIII is long gone. We're all very impressed with how long you've been playing. Your choice now is to adapt or be left behind.

[Danical]

GSIII is long gone. We're all very impressed with how long you've been playing. Your choice now is to adapt or be left behind.

This made me lol hard.

<3 Eric.

----------------
Now playing: Flogging Molly - These Exiled Years (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/flogging+molly/track/these+exiled+years)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[TheWitch]

[QUOTE=vulvamancer;701710]This made me lol hard.

Me too.

Especially because all this whinging about how much better pures have it....

In GSIII, socerers owned EVERYONE. Not just warriors, all y'all's backsides were belong to us.

And yet, he longs for the day.

Oh, the irony.

[Lysander]

[QUOTE=vulvamancer;701710]This made me lol hard.

Me too.

Especially because all this whinging about how much better pures have it....

In GSIII, socerers owned EVERYONE. Not just warriors, all y'all's backsides were belong to us.

And yet, he longs for the day.

Oh, the irony.

Someday.....

















































































I'll finally see a sorcerer die.

[Danical]

* Jenovadeath just bit the dust! [12:39 PM]

[Fallen]

They die constantly, especially the sissy stick users.

[Lysander]

They die constantly, especially the sissy stick users.

Or thats what you would like Simu to believe.... I think the real statistics would say differently. Whens the last time you died? 1995?

[Danical]

Dear Lysander,

Suck a bag of dicks.

Sincerely,

Dan.

[Stunseed]

Stick-users die more frequently in the end-game due to disarming, compared to E's tower shield build, just like my wizard is setup.

[Lysander]

Dear Lysander,

Suck a bag of dicks.

Sincerely,

Dan.

I never liked these sexual mockeries. I mean what would you say to a woman? Lick a bunch of pussies? No, probably would say the same thing Suck a bunch of dicks. The act of sucking dick (for the person doing it) must be socially humilating or something similar. At least thats the only way it can be construed as something bad and hence why you said that to me.

But really how do you think women feel about all this, when they actually do suck dicks or is socially acceptable for women to suck dicks. Is this saying something about women in society?

[CrystalTears]

How about you take it in the sense that sucking a bag of dicks will take you a long time, thus preventing you from coming here and spouting stupidity.

[Lysander]

But is it acceptable for women to suck dicks?

[CrystalTears]

It is not only acceptable, but expected and rewarded.

Now go away and get started on that bag, beeyotch.

[Drunken Durfin]

I believe that it is not the act itself, but the circumstances in which it occurs. To suck the dick out of a desire to preform the action or to impart feelings of pleasure unto said owner of the dick is one thing. Being commanded to do so, and complying, illustrates a lack of control over one's own life and actions. A slave of sorts. To suck the dick is not bad, being made to suck the dick is.

Examples:

Good Situation
Wife/Girlfriend: "Oh, you were so wonderful tonight while we were out with my parents, you're getting a blow job when we get home."

Bad Situation
99.999% of Posters on PC: "If Lysander makes one more effing Monk post I am gonna shove my dick in his mouth."

Does this help?

[CrystalTears]

:lol:

[Lysander]

I believe that it is not the act itself, but the circumstances in which it occurs. To suck the dick out of a desire to preform the action or to impart feelings of pleasure unto said owner of the dick is one thing. Being commanded to do so, and complying, illustrates a lack of control over one's own life and actions. A slave of sorts. To suck the dick is not bad, being made to suck the dick is.

Examples:

Good Situation
Wife/Girlfriend: "Oh, you were so wonderful tonight while we were out with my parents, you're getting a blow job when we get home."

Bad Situation
99.999% of Posters on PC: "If Lysander makes one more effing Monk post I am gonna shove my dick in his mouth."

Does this help?


But then... how come homosexual blowjobs are frowned upon in society and homosexual vaginal stimulation not so much frowned upon (and possibly encouraged by males).

I actually think the very ACT of being penetrated is a very "weakness" oriented action and hence why guys get off on it so much when a woman does it because it feels like he owns her (or the recepriocal loves him) that much more. This I believe is true, because guys get even more aroused when women give oral sex on their knees.

[CrystalTears]

OMFG!
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/missed_the_point.jpg

[Lysander]

OMFG!
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/missed_the_point.jpg

No my dear, I think the point was made too clearly.

[Drunken Durfin]

I actually think the very ACT of being penetrated is a very "weakness" oriented action and hence why guys get off on it so much when a woman does it because it feels like he owns her (or the recepriocal loves him) that much more. This I believe is true, because guys get even more aroused when women give oral sex on their knees.

The items in bold are the key flaws in your statements. Are you really a village idiot or do you just play one on PC?

[Lysander]

The items in bold are the key flaws in your statements. Are you really a village idiot or do you just play one on PC?

You're just jealous because your dwarf can't hit head ambush 50% of the critters in the game.

[Asha]

His dwarf can ambush anything with a head you dumb fuck

[g++]

But is it acceptable for women to suck dicks?


You know I figured out something. Smaller penises have an advantage. You can possibly convince her to do anal after a little work.



I actually think the very ACT of being penetrated is a very "weakness" oriented action


Yeah, that is kinda fishy. But my point is, if the Blacks will all just STFU it will be BEST.


You see thats the best part. I'm going to get my bras scripted so whenever I do my ninja attack my tits jiggle wildly.


Anyone ever see a g-string or thong for women in their playing GS? I would pay well for one. Scripted will be a plus, like adjusting it or some such jazz.


Looking for a AR-15 or Klashnikov or another heavy duty assault rifle.


Jesus tap dancing christ

[Drunken Durfin]

You're just jealous because your dwarf can't hit head ambush 50% of the critters in the game.

Nice attempt at redirection, I'll play along. First off, If ambush head is the only trick you have then you are one seriously suck ass warrior. Second, I can ambush the head of ANY critter in the game; Cman tackle, ambush left leg, etc. And Third:

Dear Lysander,

Suck a bag of dicks.

Sincerely,

Dan & Durfin.

[AnticorRifling]

Alternately you can feel free to;

Dear Lysander,

Snack on a sack of assholes.

Sincerely,

<insert signature of just about everyone here>

[Asha]

Alternately you can feel free to;

Dear Lysander,

Snack on a sack of assholes.

Sincerely,

<insert signature of just about everyone here>

SIGNED!