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Jenisi
01-29-2008, 11:12 PM
I was rather shocked when I saw this on the front page of my school's newspaper. I'm going to be doing a speech in 3 months to help persude young America to vote and this kinda pissed me off.

Ignorant People Should Not Be Allowed to Vote
January 25, 2008 — iusbvision
A person’s vote is the most powerful weapon the individual has against the government. However, should this great power come with great responsibility? I believe so, which is why I believe that ignorant people should not have the right to vote.
There is historical precedence for this line of thought. After the Civil War, polling exams were used to keep uneducated people (primarily former slaves) from voting. If one could remove the racist element from the polling exams, there is some wisdom within the exam itself.

Have you ever wondered why in Indiana, we seem to elect politicians whose names are close to the beginning of the alphabet (fmr. Gov. Birch Bayh, Evan Bayh, speaker B. Patrick Bauer)? In the past, candidates were always listed alphabetically and election after election, the candidate whose name came first on the ballot was elected.
We can see this here at IUSB. A case in point is our student government. In previous elections, we have had Mike Renfrow defeat Teresa Santos; Mike Renfrow was defeated in his first campaign by Audra Ammerman; our current president is Ivan Blount. Previous to Ammerman, the president was Michael Drain, after Ammerman, it was Bladecki. This is not to take anything away from any of these SGA presidents, but there is more than a coincidence here. Blount, Ammerman, Renfrow, and Drain all appeared first on the ballot and they won.

When someone is faced with a multiple choice decision and they don’t know, they typically select the first answer. This is why “A” is the most commonly selected answer in multiple choice exams, even though statistically “B” is most often the correct answer. We carry this same line of thinking into the polling exams.

When Indiana finally randomized the names on the ballots, suddenly Hoosier voters were able to vote straight ticket. Straight ticket meaning they could push a button and vote entirely for Republicans or Democrats. This creates an environment for elections to be decided by a bunch of ignorant people who would not know their candidate if he came into the room with a shirt saying “my name is …”.

This is where the wisdom of the polling exam comes into play. Now, I am not calling for an exam asking who is fifth in line for the presidency or what is the role of the minority whip in the House. I would, however like for a voter to at least know the name of the candidate for whom they want to vote.

I do not think it is too much to ask of a voter to know the name of the candidate they want to vote for. They should not be able to vote for “the Republican” or “the Democrat”.

Understandably, there are obvious problems of policing this. A “fill in the blank” polling machine would harm someone who wanted to vote for Sen. Voinavich. Spelling and handwriting would be big problems. And it would create a tremendous bottle-neck at the polling stations if voters had to tell the worker at the station the name of the candidate before they could vote.

I would be willing to compromise by just eliminating the straight ticket ballot and eliminating the practice of placing the party affiliation next to the candidates name.

We live in a country where less than fifty percent of the population votes and I would imagine there is a significant portion of those voting rely on the party affiliation to make their selection.
The cure for the latter is the polling exam, even if the exam only consists of insisting the voter know the name of their candidate. The former will never be solved, we cannot drag citizens to the polls, but if you don’t vote, you have no right to complain about who gets elected.

I understand that the Constitution gives us all the right to vote, but there should be some personal responsibility involved in pulling the levers to elect the most powerful people in the world.

It is not too much to ask that we know the candidates’ names before we are allowed to vote for them.

Peanut Butter Jelly Time
01-29-2008, 11:14 PM
Hot women should not be allowed to vote. Jenisi, GTFO

diethx
01-29-2008, 11:21 PM
You should counter by writing an article for the next edition of your school's paper, entitled, "Stupid People Should Not Have the Right to Free Speech".

Peanut Butter Jelly Time
01-29-2008, 11:23 PM
You should write an article called "how to stop being sexy"... and your entire article will consist of: "I don't know, ask some ugly bitch." Yes, you can use that, I wont call it plagiarism

Jenisi
01-29-2008, 11:24 PM
I wrote him a long e-mail with my objections. My main issue: This is a campus filled with young people. Most of the people that DON'T vote are the ignorant ones. People that go vote are voting for SOMETHING, and sometimes not even the person. Whether they're just voting for their Democratic or Republican values, I applaud them.

Hulkein
01-29-2008, 11:24 PM
You need to get outside more PB & JT.

Peanut Butter Jelly Time
01-29-2008, 11:40 PM
Bah, everyone tells me to, but I dun wanna! I work at home, I sleep at home, I eat at home. Why go out when I have everything life requires right here!?! :D

At any rate, I think this entire thread is kind of pointless, as ignorant people don't know they're ignorant a majority of the time. Thus, uneducated voters will still run amuck, and nothing will come from the time and effort you're putting into these thoughts. Is a forum for a dying MUD really the best place to inspire deep thoughts about important social decisions? Odds are, you wont really strike the minds of anyone on any relevant basis, which is sad, but true.

Sorry to play Captain Buzzkill. :club:

diethx
01-29-2008, 11:45 PM
Bah, everyone tells me to, but I dun wanna! I work at home, I sleep at home, I eat at home. Why go out when I have everything life requires right here!?! :D

At any rate, I think this entire thread is kind of pointless, as ignorant people don't know they're ignorant a majority of the time. Thus, uneducated voters will still run amuck, and nothing will come from the time and effort you're putting into these thoughts. Is a forum for a dying MUD really the best place to inspire deep thoughts about important social decisions? Odds are, you wont really strike the minds of anyone on any relevant basis, which is sad, but true.

Sorry to play Captain Buzzkill. :club:

Actually, i'm willing to bet that most who are ignorant about politics are that way by choice (because politics can be boring, and not everyone cares).

If you hadn't noticed, Gemstone isn't the only thing discussed on these forums, and threads are often created because the author needed an outlet in which to bitch, complain, etc. I doubt Jenisi was trying to inspire any deep thoughts in us.

Peanut Butter Jelly Time
01-29-2008, 11:49 PM
Well, if that's the case, I'll withdraw my Captain Buzzkill stance and give a thumbs up for a politically accurate rant on the part of Jenisi. That truly is an achievement!:hug2:

Tsa`ah
01-30-2008, 01:45 AM
Actually, i'm willing to bet that most who are ignorant about politics are that way by choice (because politics can be boring, and not everyone cares).

Eh, I'd say some ... not most.

There's a reason why the Obama chain letter is still in circulation and why people actually believe it ... they're fucking stupid.

I expect this from the religious vote. Not to say that all religious people are stupid, just that a good number of them believe anything spoon fed to them. These are the people that claim to be Christian ... yet have never cracked a bible.

I expect it from my sister in law, but her sister in law is a dentist. From this I can assume she's had more than a little education ... yet she adamantly swears by the chain letter. She believes Obama doesn't wear a flag pin, doesn't cover his heart or remove his hat during the pledge or anthem ... because he's an Islamic extremist ... educated in India by Islamic extremists.

She's not the only one. I know plenty of people I would consider educated and/or intelligent ... and they buy this shit hook line and sinker.

They're either Clinton supporters or political evangelicals, but it never fails and it always floors me.

Latrinsorm
01-30-2008, 11:16 AM
1) Straight ticket voting really is a bad thing. There's no such thing as "Democrat values" or "Republican values".
2) There is some evidence for the "person who goes first on the ballot gets more votes" theory. It's not an overwhelming effect, but there is evidence for it in the 2-3% range.

It's not clear to me what made you angry about the article. It doesn't seem to target young people or students in any way.

Atlanteax
01-30-2008, 11:28 AM
I think it's a brilliant idea to require people to pass a literacy/intelligence test before voting.

Clove
01-30-2008, 11:40 AM
I think it's a brilliant idea to require people to pass a literacy/intelligence test before voting.

Not so brilliant and not so new. Re: Voting Rights Act of 1965.

Bobmuhthol
01-30-2008, 11:50 AM
I was upset by the article because I thought it fucking sucked.

Sean of the Thread
01-30-2008, 11:54 AM
Rofl

BigWorm
01-30-2008, 12:26 PM
I think it's a brilliant idea to require people to pass a literacy/intelligence test before voting.

So I guess you're willing to give up your voting rights?

Atlanteax
01-30-2008, 12:33 PM
Voting should be a privilege.

Tsa`ah
01-30-2008, 12:55 PM
Voting should be a privilege.

So what historic/political figure would you like to be referenced as?

Chavez? Castro? Hitler? Ahmadinejad? Mussolini? Hussein?

BigWorm
01-30-2008, 12:55 PM
Voting should be a privilege.

That is only given to white men with a large amount of land and approved views on all issues.

Are you seriously going to back that stance? Look, I don't like it that the dumbasses that think Obama is a radical Islamist or who won't vote for Romney solely because he was raised a Mormon get to vote. Unfortunately, that's how a (representative) democracy works. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

BigWorm
01-30-2008, 12:56 PM
Not Hitler. No Godwin's, please

Sean of the Thread
01-30-2008, 12:58 PM
Not Hitler. No Godwin's, please

People that call Godwin's lose all respect. Sack up.

BigWorm
01-30-2008, 12:59 PM
Uh, dumbass I'm not calling it, I'm trying to avoid it

Sean of the Thread
01-30-2008, 01:00 PM
Once you mentioned it there isn't much difference.

Latrinsorm
01-30-2008, 01:07 PM
Unfortunately, that's how a (representative) democracy works.Why do we have a voting age?

BigWorm
01-30-2008, 01:19 PM
Why do we have a voting age?

Because that's the arbitrary line we choose to decide that people have the necessary capacity to make their own decisions. Obviously, a 1 year old can't do as such, and we must pick some cut off and that's what we've chosen. That's changed over the years to be more inclusive as well, by the way.

Nice straw man attempt, though. You're usually better than that.

BigWorm
01-30-2008, 01:22 PM
Once you mentioned it there isn't much difference.

I'm not the one comparing anyone to Hitler. Do you even know what Godwin's Law means?

Celephais
01-30-2008, 01:39 PM
I'm not the one comparing anyone to Hitler. Do you even know what Godwin's Law means?
He's saying anyone who brings up Godwin's law when someone mentions Hitler is a fucking twit, and I agree with him.

Hulkein
01-30-2008, 01:41 PM
Nice straw man attempt, though. You're usually better than that.

No he's not.

Tsa`ah
01-30-2008, 01:42 PM
Not Hitler. No Godwin's, please

Well it already happened ... though I'm not sure you're aware of the association.


I'm not the one comparing anyone to Hitler. Do you even know what Godwin's Law means?

It seems you're confused.

Godwin's simply asserts that as an online conversation progresses, the likeliness of a Hitler/Nazi comparison approaches one ... meaning it's almost always inevitable.

The "law" makes no reference to validity.

In any case, Bad Tie's stance on voting closely resembles all of the aforementioned figures to some extent.

Gan
01-30-2008, 01:55 PM
I think it's a brilliant idea to require people to pass a literacy/intelligence test before voting.

I say the same thing for having children.

:yes:

Clove
01-30-2008, 02:03 PM
He's saying anyone who brings up Godwin's law when someone mentions Hitler is a fucking twit, and I agree with him.

x10 I call Backlash.

Stanley Burrell
01-30-2008, 02:07 PM
Not so brilliant and not so new. Re: Voting Rights Act of 1965.

You ever notice how the people who proclaim to be the most outspoken patriots seem to never know their own history?

This is true, enough, that I must bussa' rap. Aiteaiteaite:

Yo. Study your history,
Whoever don't, I pity the fool, Like Mr. T.

Sorry. Also:

I'm all for UPS sending a percentage of their earnings back to the Queen of England. Entirely for absurdity factor, tho.

Latrinsorm
01-30-2008, 02:23 PM
Because that's the arbitrary line we choose to decide that people have the necessary capacity to make their own decisions.Wouldn't it be more democratic to test this necessary capacity rather than arbitrarily declare it like, for instance, a dictator would?
No he's not.!

BigWorm
01-30-2008, 03:35 PM
Wouldn't it be more democratic to test this necessary capacity rather than arbitrarily declare it like, for instance, a dictator would?!

I'm agreeing with you in that its arbitrary. However, can you come up with a test that is unbiased towards all cultures and native speakers of all languages? It's impossible, though it has been tried and failed on standardized tests since their invention. Thus, any test would be arbitrary as well and seems more prone to intentional biases and manipulation, as has happened in the past.

BigWorm
01-30-2008, 03:39 PM
Well it already happened ... though I'm not sure you're aware of the association.



It seems you're confused.

Godwin's simply asserts that as an online conversation progresses, the likeliness of a Hitler/Nazi comparison approaches one ... meaning it's almost always inevitable.

The "law" makes no reference to validity.

In any case, Bad Tie's stance on voting closely resembles all of the aforementioned figures to some extent.

Although that's the first line of Wikipedia article, that's not what most people on Usenet (where the term was invented) mean by Godwin's Law. Usually, they are referring to the fact that comparing someone to Hitler, usually in a hyperbolic sense, ends all logical debate. As much as I disagree with his stance on voting, I think comparing him to Hitler evokes more of an emotional response than a logical response, which was my point.

Tsa`ah
01-30-2008, 03:44 PM
There wasn't anything emotional about it. Perhaps you're not aware of any of the listed figure's views on voting?

Emotions was far from it. I didn't jump in and call him a fascist or a nazi ... or anything. Rather I simply asked who he would like to be compared to ... his stance is scary and reminiscent of a number of current and historic figures.

Latrinsorm
01-30-2008, 07:06 PM
I'm agreeing with you in that its arbitrary. However, can you come up with a test that is unbiased towards all cultures and native speakers of all languages? It's impossible, though it has been tried and failed on standardized tests since their invention. Thus, any test would be arbitrary as well and seems more prone to intentional biases and manipulation, as has happened in the past.How's this:
"who's George W. Bush?"
the President
"name one Democrat"
Hilary Clinton
"Ok go vote."

Celephais
01-30-2008, 10:48 PM
How's this:
"who's George W. Bush?"
the President
"name one Democrat"
Hilary Clinton
"Ok go vote."
Yeah I'd be fine with this kind of test... even maybe an automated:
"You've selected [Hilary Clinton], name one poltical pillar and her stance on said pillar"
"..Um... she's female?"
*bzzz* vote disregarded.