ACLU: Sex in Restroom Stalls Is Private

[Gan]

AP - Wednesday, January 16

ST. PAUL, Minn. - In an effort to help Sen. Larry Craig, the American Civil Liberties Union is arguing that people who have sex in public bathrooms have an expectation of privacy.

Craig, of Idaho, is asking the Minnesota Court of Appeals to let him withdraw his guilty plea to disorderly conduct stemming from a bathroom sex sting at the Minneapolis airport.

The ACLU filed a brief Tuesday supporting Craig. It cited a Minnesota Supreme Court ruling 38 years ago that found that people who have sex in closed stalls in public restrooms "have a reasonable expectation of privacy."

That means the state cannot prove Craig was inviting an undercover officer to have sex in public, the ACLU wrote.

The Republican senator was arrested June 11 by an undercover officer who said Craig tapped his feet and swiped his hand under a stall divider in a way that signaled he wanted sex. Craig has denied that, saying his actions were misconstrued.

The ACLU argued that even if Craig was inviting the officer to have sex, his actions wouldn't be illegal.

"The government cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Senator Craig was inviting the undercover officer to engage in anything other than sexual intimacy that would not have called attention to itself in a closed stall in the public restroom," the ACLU wrote in its brief.

The ACLU also noted that Craig was originally charged with interference with privacy, which it said was an admission by the state that people in the bathroom stall expect privacy.

Craig at one point said he would resign but now says he will finish his term, which ends in January 2009.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/ap/20080116/twl-craig-appeal-1be00ca.html
___________________________________________

So now Sen. Craig has the ACLU on board.

I guess one does have an expectation of privacy in a bathroom stall - to a degree, but I dont think sex should be included.

First off, bathroom stalls arent designed nor installed for anything except as a place to void.

Secondly privacy and the expectation thereof is only to a degree that the person using the stall knows that the stall walls adjoin other stalls, that the walls do not reach the floor nor do they reach the ceiling, and that the doorway to the stall does not have close tolerances with the door frame, thus allowing up to and sometimes larger than half inch gaps that allow visibility into and out of the stall.

I'm curious to see how far the ACLU can push this expectation of privacy aveneue.

[Ilvane]

The ACLU barks up the wrong tree so many times. I mean, sex in a PUBLIC stall?

How can they even justify it?

They used to be so decent when they first started, nowadays they make themselves into total jokes.

Angela

[Jayvn]

they just need to make stalls specifically for sex..no toilet or anything, possibly a condom vending machine... cause you know..sometimes you just gotta release...or something.

[CrystalTears]

Jayvn=George Michael?

[Gan]

LOL

[BigWorm]

To play devil's advocate here, what is the limit of what's acceptable in a bathroom stall? Obviously, you have the right to expect no one to intrude on your privacy when you're dumping, but what other activities are considered acceptable? Do you have a right to privacy when changing your child's diaper? Just curious as to people's thoughts

[Sean of the Thread]

I like to shit in urinals.

[CrystalTears]

To play devil's advocate here, what is the limit of what's acceptable in a bathroom stall? Obviously, you have the right to expect no one to intrude on your privacy when you're dumping, but what other activities are considered acceptable? Do you have a right to privacy when changing your child's diaper? Just curious as to people's thoughts
The thing is that this can't possibly be a universal acceptance. Not all bathrooms have the same functionality. Not all stalls have doors, they're certainly not all unisex.

As far as I'm personally concerned, I really don't want to hear or see you do anything in a bathroom. (Women who insist on going in a group will remain to be a mystery to me until the day I die.) I don't really care what you're doing, I don't want to know about it. I don't consider bathrooms THAT private. For that matter I don't want them seeing me either.

How old is this child you're changing? Diaper changing tables are in the open in most bathrooms, so you won't be getting much privacy with that. Women can pass by and see how teeny your baby's PP is and laugh, and you can't do much about it, except maybe whack her on the way out.

[Atlanteax]

The ACLU barks up the wrong tree so many times. I mean, sex in a PUBLIC stall?

How can they even justify it?

They used to be so decent when they first started, nowadays they make themselves into total jokes.

Angela

Something that I've been saying for quite some time now about the ACLU.

[Drew2]

I'd have sex in a stall, I'm not going to lie. Anonymous sex? probably not.

[Klayman]

Maybe the real crime here is that there is a supreme court ruling 38 years ago that says it's OK to have sex in a bathroom stall.

I hate the ACLU, but to be completely honest here they are simply pointing back to a ruling and saying, "You said it was OK to have sex in a bathroom stall." In addition, it really helped them that the ruling happened in the same state the current incident happened.

Gotta love dumbshit judges who pass judgement without any foresight beyond the current case. To make matters worse, in this particular ruling, it actually made it to the state supreme court! So the highest court in the state says it's OK, it must be OK. It's called "Precident" for a reason.

Just my 2-cents.

[Gan]

To play devil's advocate here, what is the limit of what's acceptable in a bathroom stall? Obviously, you have the right to expect no one to intrude on your privacy when you're dumping, but what other activities are considered acceptable? Do you have a right to privacy when changing your child's diaper? Just curious as to people's thoughts

If there is a changing station in said stall, I would say that 'right' is implied at the very least.

[Gan]

I like to shit in urinals.
HAHA... Freak.


Something that I've been saying for quite some time now about the ACLU.
Me too. :help:

[BigWorm]

If there is a changing station in said stall, I would say that 'right' is implied at the very least.

What if there's a condom dispenser?

[Gan]

What if there's a condom dispenser?

Then you have a point, in those specific restrooms, unless there's signage denoting otherwise.

Its been a long time since I've seen a condom dispenser in a men's room.

[Drew2]

Then you have a point, in those specific restrooms, unless there's signage denoting otherwise.

Its been a long time since I've seen a condom dispenser in a men's room.

They have them at South Beach.

But of course they also have "One person per stall" signs too.

[Ilvane]

Oh just what we need is a law on the books saying it's okay to have sex in bathroom stalls.

Whee.

Where in the hell is common sense with people????

What about the civil rights of the little boys that go in to use the PUBLIC stalls? Why should they be subjected to the perverts? GOD.

Makes me sick the way this world is.

Angela

[Sean]

Are those little boys kicking in stall doors or something? I've never had sex in a bathroom stall and I've never witnessed (to my knowledge) anyone having sex in a bathroom stall nor would I particularly want to. But I can't figure out how all of a sudden the welfare of the nations children are at risk either, atleast anymore so than yesterday.

[ClydeR]

What about the civil rights of the little boys that go in to use the PUBLIC stalls? Why should they be subjected to the perverts? GOD.


Are those little boys kicking in stall doors or something? I've never had sex in a bathroom stall and I've never witnessed (to my knowledge) anyone having sex in a bathroom stall nor would I particularly want to. But I can't figure out how all of a sudden the welfare of the nations children are at risk either, atleast anymore so than yesterday.

It is well known that homosexuals use public bathrooms to recruit others to their lifestyle. Homosexuals cannot have kids. New homosexuals have to come from somewhere.

[Eoghain]

I've hooked up in bathroom stalls. But it's usually at a nightclub or a strip joint, and never anywhere that children would ever be. And, well, it's rarely private :P

[Gan]

My little boy does not go into a public restroom without me along, period. Parents who send their young children alone into a public restroom, knowing what could happen while they are in there unsupervised, should be whipped.

[Gan]

It is well known that homosexuals use public bathrooms to recruit others to their lifestyle. Homosexuals cannot have kids. New homosexuals have to come from somewhere.

:lol:

Comedy Gold.

[CrystalTears]

It is well known that homosexuals use public bathrooms to recruit others to their lifestyle. Homosexuals cannot have kids. New homosexuals have to come from somewhere.
You're supposed to put that in italics or add the word sarcasm at the end so that I don't think you're a raving lunatic. Thanks.

[CrystalTears]

My little boy does not go into a public restroom without me along, period. Parents who send their young children alone into a public restroom, knowing what could happen while they are in there unsupervised, should be whipped.
They probably already do, which could be the problem. :D

[Some Rogue]

I'd have sex in a stall, I'm not going to lie. Anonymous sex? probably not.


I've hooked up in bathroom stalls. But it's usually at a nightclub or a strip joint, and never anywhere that children would ever be. And, well, it's rarely private :P


It is well known that homosexuals use public bathrooms to recruit others to their lifestyle. Homosexuals cannot have kids. New homosexuals have to come from somewhere.

:rofl:

[Whimsi]

I have a 10 year old stepson who'd rather die than accompany me into the womens public restroom. I wonder if, as a woman, I'm more likely to get arrested accompanying him into the men's restroom than someone who is engaging in sex in said restroom...

[Gan]

Some Rogue wins.

[Latrinsorm]

What about the civil rights of the little boys that go in to use the PUBLIC stalls? Why should they be subjected to the perverts? GOD.How dare you try to legislate what consenting adults do behind closed doors. :no:

[Eoghain]

It is well known that homosexuals use public bathrooms to recruit others to their lifestyle. Homosexuals cannot have kids. New homosexuals have to come from somewhere.


It's also well known that God created the earth about 3000 years ago, and it took him 6 days. People also lived alongside dinosaurs (the Flintstones was based on solid biblical evidence). Homosexuality is obviously a choice that 3 and 4 year olds make all the time, but only after exposure (just like exposure to someone with HIV will get you sick with it. It's gay cancer, and it's airborne. If you're straight, and you have HIV, WAKE UP! You're obviously gay.) Women can conceive without men these days, but since research like that is against god, they're all going to hell. New homosexuals come from families with gay parents, because even though it's a choice, it seems to work that way. Oh, also, George Bush is the second coming of Jesus.

I'm glad we agree on so much, Clyde. Please die soon.

[Ilvane]

How dare you try to legislate what consenting adults do behind closed doors. :no:

You aren't that stupid honey..I know you aren't.:P

A public bathroom is not an appopriate place to have sex!

:wtf:

[Skeeter]

I have a 10 year old stepson who'd rather die than accompany me into the womens public restroom. I wonder if, as a woman, I'm more likely to get arrested accompanying him into the men's restroom than someone who is engaging in sex in said restroom...

Why would your 10 year old need accompaniment in a restroom?

[Latrinsorm]

A public bathroom is not an appopriate place to have sex!That's your morality, and I'll thank you not to shove it down my gay-sex-in-bathroom-stall-having throat.

[CrystalTears]

That's your morality, and I'll thank you not to shove it down my gay-sex-in-bathroom-stall-having throat.
Is this you officially coming out? :whistle:

[Latrinsorm]

You should see my hot new boots. :D

[BigWorm]

OMG think of the children! is not a valid argument. Thank you for trying.

[Gan]

What about the civil rights of the little boys that go in to use the PUBLIC stalls? Why should they be subjected to the perverts? GOD.
How dare you try to legislate what consenting adults do behind closed doors. :no:


Ilvane specifies children, not just consenting adults. Surely you dont think we should not legislate the laws already in place to protect children from sexual predators, be it in a home or in a public restroom.

Surely not.

[CrystalTears]

Wait a second. I'm not a big fan of sex in bathrooms, but hey, whatever, not my business really. But that doesn't automatically make someone having sex in a stall a sex predator.

And if it's a public place that a child can knock in the door of the stall and watch, then watching some guy take a dump or whack off isn't any better either. Kinda had that coming for being a nosey fucker.

[Latrinsorm]

Being a homosexual has nothing to do with being a sexual predator. It's a door, it's closed AND latched, it's between consenting adults, what the problem is?

.

Come on people, we all know the real problem here, even Congress: PED use in baseball.

[BigWorm]

Come on people, we all know the real problem here, even Congress: PED use in baseball.

Is that code for Britney Spears?

[Gan]

Being a homosexual has nothing to do with being a sexual predator. It's a door, it's closed AND latched, it's between consenting adults, what the problem is?
Point taken.

Sex between consenting adults does not constitute the existance of being a sexual predator to minors.

I guess the bottom line is the expectation of privacy, which calls into question all of the legislation for public lewd (sexual) behavior.

So what about in cases where the participants have no expectation of privacy and still engage in sexual intercourse. Now give detail to that scenario and say that the actual act occurrs without any exposure of the intercourse or other body parts that would constitute a public display of nudity or graphical sex act. (IE, girl wears skirt, sits on guys lap at ballgame, sex happens even though those witnessing it cant actually tell or verify)

What then? No public display of nudity. Yet sex did occurr as admitted by the actual participants, just without any nudity.

How far should the ACLU push this? And whats acceptable for society?

[Latrinsorm]

So what about in cases where the participants have no expectation of privacy and still engage in sexual intercourse.In the cases where no one else could tell what was going on, it would be impossible for them to be prosecuted on account of no one knowing it happened. They still probably ought to be, but we are limited by finite knowledge.

Now if these people were to start crowing about their congress, then prosecution could probably proceed.
How far should the ACLU push this?Until their pursuit of liberty impinges upon the life or livelihood of others. (So in this case, pretty far.) This is one of the advantages of the adversarial legal system.

[TheEschaton]

I'd love to see this case which said people in stalls have an expectation of privacy.

Furthermore, I think Gan raises an interesting point. Sex is not illegal - nor should it be. Sex in public can be illegal, because, like public nudity, it offends the public's sense of morality (the law has, like, a tertiary duty to uphold society's moral values). But sex in a semi-private place? Is sex in your car, parked in a public street, allowable? What if the windows are tinted? What if you're in a privately-owned parking garage? Can you have sex in a dark alleyway because it's dark and not much travelled? Can you have sex in your government office as President of the United States because it's your office and no one else has the right to be there without your permission?

Interesting indeed. I am all for the ACLU defending all these cases, because at least they are consistent in defending ALL these cases. Klan, Republican Senators, NAMBLA, they run the whole gamut.

As to Ilvane's shocked moral outrage, and her subsequent disdain for the ACLU - that's what civil rights are about, and you're acting like a complete fucking hypocrite. You defend people's civil rights no matter what the perceived right, and no matter who the defendant, because this country is based on a belief in the inalienable nature of certain rights.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

Is sex in your car, parked in a public street, allowable?
Nope

Can you have sex in a dark alleyway because it's dark and not much travelled?
Nope

Not.. that I.. have any experience... in such things.. or anything.

[Skeeter]

Road Head is totally allowed.

[Eoghain]

Road Head is totally allowed.

Sadly, it's not. Remember that scene in Crash? Also, if you get caught doing it and get prosucuted, you can be added to the national sex offenders database. Imagine being 16 and getting busted having sex in your car cause you have no where else to go, and then you're a sex offender for life? It happens.

[AestheticDeath]

They have them at South Beach.

But of course they also have "One person per stall" signs too.

Hell yeah. I was going to comment on that. I think bathroom stalls are for urinating/defecating only, thats a one person activity.

And seriously... I dont know where the fuck you people live, but I don't think I have seen a bathroom, much less a stall thats clean enough for me to get naked in and perform any kind of sex act. Not to mention its small and cramped unless you find a wheelchair accessible one. But still. Go rent a room, with a bed.

[Sean of the Thread]

I'm sick of seeing stalls with peep holes carved in them and even some with glory holes. Almost every fucking stall I've been in has some gay sex solicitation written or fucking peep holes.

I make sure my p229 comes into view on the floor next to these freaks when I drop my drawers on a toilet.

[Eoghain]

Real homos who like being gay don't need to go into bathrooms for sex. It's the closeted idiots with wives and kids that have to hide their manhunting in places like that, with overly complicated hand signals and foot tapping. They run around proclaiming how straight they are and lauding "family" values.

I never knew there was gay bathroom sex code until I read about Senator Craig. Us new generation of mo's just smile at each other and get laid. This DL shit is in its death throes.

[Sean of the Thread]

Real homos who like being gay don't need to go into bathrooms for sex. It's the closeted idiots with wives and kids that have to hide their manhunting in places like that, with overly complicated hand signals and foot tapping. They run around proclaiming how straight they are and lauding "family" values.

I never knew there was gay bathroom sex code until I read about Senator Craig. Us new generation of mo's just smile at each other and get laid. This DL shit is in its death throes.

Uh yeah right.

[Ilvane]

I'm hardly a prude, but a public restroom is NOT a private place where someone can go and have sex and not infringe on other peoples civil right to not have to be subjected to that kind of thing.

I'm speaking specifically of children being unexpectedly in a public bathroom while two adults..well, seriously, do I have to explain this to you people? You aren't that ridiculous.

And TheE, my specific disgust with the ACLU is the cases they have made so famous lately, defending NAMBLA and other sexual predator groups under the name of civil rights.

There is no exception to my mind where a person who is interested in promoting child molestation and helping men get away with it should be defended under "Free Speech". In the case where they defended NAMBLA, they actually were defending them against a law suit brought by the parents of an 8 year old boy here in MA that was killed by two men who were members and also had taken some of the "doctrine" from the website and used it to help find ways to lure him in, as well as to survive the scorn of man-boy love.

Sickos.

[Gan]

I make sure my p229 comes into view on the floor next to these freaks when I drop my drawers on a toilet.

The echo in public restrooms that occurs when you rack one into the chamber is fucking phenomenal. Folks start stepping real fast when that unmistakeable sound happens.

[Sean of the Thread]

Lol I've never chambered in a restroom (because there is always one in the chamber) but I'll try it now for shits and giggles.

[Gan]

In the cases where no one else could tell what was going on, ...
I dont know about you but I have every intention of ringing that bell as loud as I can with my partner if I'm having sex. Furthermore, exactly how can you be discreet or even undetectable when you bust a nut? Seriously? Have you ever had sex with another person (ie, not yourself?).



Now if these people were to start crowing about their congress, then prosecution could probably proceed.

Crowing? :lol:
Refer to my points above.

You're hillarious. Seriously.

[Gan]

Lol I've never chambered in a restroom (because there is always one in the chamber) but I'll try it now for shits and giggles.

When I was on duty I always had one chambered. But I'm not a huge fan of having one in when carrying for personal, especially since I'm not a LEO anymore.

[Sean of the Thread]

1) Actually after thinking about it for a few minutes... I'm not going to chamber a round in the restroom. With my luck it would slam fire. However I may just pop the slide once without any ammo to hear it.

2) If I heard people .. .homo or otherwise having sexxor in a public restroom I think I would crack the fuck up and maybe even toss a handful of water over the stall.

Or pee on their feet from the other stall.

[Sean of the Thread]

When I was on duty I always had one chambered. But I'm not a huge fan of having one in when carrying for personal, especially since I'm not a LEO anymore.

Only in a double action and only in my Sig.

*I could hit the hammer with a sledge hammer and only end up breaking the gun.

[Gan]

Only in a double action and only in my Sig.

*I could hit the hammer with a sledge hammer and only end up breaking the gun.

You're far more trusting of the efforts of fallable man than I am. ;)

*Damnit now I have the itch to go shoot. Maybe have a range date tomorrow for lunch. :)

[Latrinsorm]

I'm sick of seeing stalls with peep holes carved in them and even some with glory holes. Almost every fucking stall I've been in has some gay sex solicitation written or fucking peep holes.It's official, Florida is the gayest state in the Union. Sorry, Vermont!
but a public restroom is NOT a private place where someone can go and have sex and not infringe on other peoples civil right to not have to be subjected to that kind of thing.It is not a private place, but it is a place where a person can reasonably expect privacy as defined by the law.
Furthermore, exactly how can you be discreet or even undetectable when you bust a nut?Hey man, I figured you had some married-people secret or something: "even though those witnessing it cant actually tell or verify". :shrug: I'm not sure why it amuses you that I would answer a question you asked, but you're welcome I suppose?

[Sean of the Thread]

Welllll it is true that married men with children do learn to have sex quietly.... and by that I mean no sex at all.

[Gan]

Welllll it is true that married men with children do learn to have sex quietly.... and by that I mean no sex at all.

Word.

:(

Although its nice when junior spends the night at Grammy's! ;)

[Stanley Burrell]

...

Don't y'all have kids and whatnot?

[Gan]

...

Don't y'all have kids and whatnot?


Stanley...

Shut up.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/Cynystasia/bitchslap.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

What?

I think the idea of nuclear weapons in the hands of toddlers would be fucking awesome, but as, like, a movie concept. Maybe in real life though.

And fuck you: I said "y'all." That's V.I.P. entrance to the message board NRA meetings :(

[Gelston]

I don't think I'd like to go shit or piss in a bathroom with a bunch of people moaning and fucking. That seems lewd to me.

[Stanley Burrell]

I don't think I'd like to go shit or piss in a bathroom with a bunch of people moaning and fucking. That seems lewd to me.

It'd make great pr0n.

I'm sure it does. I've never seen a toilet fuck pr0n, oddly enough. My life is lacking.

[Gelston]

There are porns with that concept.

[Whimsi]

Why would your 10 year old need accompaniment in a restroom?

He was like that when he was five too. Anyway, Gan made a comment earlier about parents accompanying their children in a public restroom, which is just fine when your child is the same sex but a bit problematic when he/she is not. I guess the point I was trying to make, poorly I think, was that letting a child use a public restroom has to entail some expectation that the child isnt going to be exposed to sexual behavior. I mean I can stand guard outside the restroom but that's hardly a protection from what might already be occurring inside.

[ViridianAsp]

My little boy does not go into a public restroom without me along, period. Parents who send their young children alone into a public restroom, knowing what could happen while they are in there unsupervised, should be whipped.

Agreed.

[Bhuryn]

Here is an easy way to check the bathroom's safety if you're not the same sex as your child.

Look down, do you see feet?

If not, it's safe to go in with your child since no one else is in there anyway.

If you do, turn off the light. If you someone yells, "What the hell, turn the lights on?!" you know they just pissed on themselves and are probably alright. If you hear a menacing snicker, probably best to find a bucket and a dark corner.