California to control home thermostats

[Gan]

SAN FRANCISCO (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/11/america/calif.php#): The conceit in the 1960s show "The Outer Limits" was that outside forces had taken control of your television set.

Next year in California, state regulators are likely to have the emergency power to control individual thermostats, sending temperatures up or down through a radio-controlled device that will be required in new or substantially modified houses and buildings to manage electricity shortages.

The proposed rules are contained in a document circulated by the California Energy Commission, which for more than three decades has set state energy efficiency standards for home appliances, like water heaters, air conditioners and refrigerators.

The changes would allow utilities to adjust customers' preset temperatures when the price of electricity is soaring. Customers could override the utilities' suggested temperatures. But in emergencies, the utilities could override customers' wishes.

Final approval is expected next month.

more...
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/11/america/calif.php
__________________________________________________ _____

Sheesh, thank God I dont live on the left coast. I wonder if water controls are next. Then controls on your refrigerator. Then TV. Then Internet. <insert slippery slope argument here>

[Gelston]

Thats why I hate that state. Shit like that. Fuck the planet.

[thefarmer]

I'd rather they just required everything be made to run more efficiently (*And be affordable for the majority of owners).

OR... Fucking fix the power grid problems.

*edited

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I opt into a program where they turn off my cooler for 15 minutes a day during peak times, but leave the fan running. I don't see anything wrong with trying to save energy at peak times of the day.

[Keller]

I have no problem having my thermostat reset from 72 to 75 or whatever during a heat wave so someone else can have their power, and AC, restored.

[Gan]

I opt into a program where they turn off my cooler for 15 minutes a day during peak times, but leave the fan running. I don't see anything wrong with trying to save energy at peak times of the day.

I'm fine with this type of program. I have issue with allowing access from an outside entity to have control over something in my home.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I have issue with allowing access from an outside entity to have control over something in my home.>>

Electric companies, cable companies, phone companies, etc. can all control aspects of your home.

[Gan]

<<I have issue with allowing access from an outside entity to have control over something in my home.>>

Electric companies, cable companies, phone companies, etc. can all control aspects of your home.

Not beyond whats contracted willingly or unwillingly in breach of said contract.

A cable company cant restrict the number of available channels you've contracted out for in instances of high volumes, unless its in their contract for service.

Same with an ISP, with a phone company contract, etc.

Not to mention the arbitrary control that can be assumed by this article, would be bad. Who's to say when and by how much will the electric company override your thermostat. Will the electric company require all households to upgrade to a thermostat thats accessable remotely? At who's cost?

No Thanks.

[Hulkein]

I see your concern Gan, but I guess it comes down to the question of whether you'd rather have the government control your thermostat during very high usage times or lose control of the thermostat (and AC unit) completely when power cuts out.

[ViridianAsp]

While I love the city I grew up in here in California, I seriously can't wait to move because of crap like this.

[Latrinsorm]

Who's to say when and by how much will the electric company override your thermostat.The government.
Will the electric company require all households to upgrade to a thermostat thats accessable remotely?Only if said households are new or "substantially modified".

Do you seriously not see how this is a drilling a hole under your seat in the lifeboat situation?

[Gan]

I see your concern Gan, but I guess it comes down to the question of whether you'd rather have the government control your thermostat during very high usage times or lose control of the thermostat (and AC unit) completely when power cuts out.

Congratulations, you've just started the first step to nationalizing our utilities.

[Gan]

The government.
Dig deeper, who in the government? What qualifications determine who can make the call on what areas get reduced, what dont, when they get reduced?



Only if said households are new or "substantially modified".
So its unfair to those who can afford to buy a new home or substantially modify one? Seriously?



Do you seriously not see how this is a drilling a hole under your seat in the lifeboat situation?
Do you seriously see how this is just increasing government regulation into our daily lives? Do you seriously not see how this can be construed as a slippery slope into regulation of how you live your life in your own home?
Seriously?

[Latrinsorm]

I don't know who exactly has direct control over our nuclear weapons. If that doesn't bother me, why would someone having indirect emergency control over my thermostat?

There are (at least) two problems with claiming "slippery slope" over this:

First, we're already well onto any sort of slope this could represent. Inseperable from our social contract is the idea that you (the individual) aren't allowed to do things that impinge upon others because you feel like it. We have noise laws, smoking laws, speed limits; the list goes on forever. In short, there already is significant regulation in my home, your home, everybody's home. The government won't even let you live in a home if they find it's not built to their satisfaction, ffs.

Second, laws aren't created based on precedent (c.f. prohibition, slavery). A slippery slope doesn't even make sense in such an environment.

[Gan]

I don't know who exactly has direct control over our nuclear weapons. If that doesn't bother me, why would someone having indirect emergency control over my thermostat?
You mean you dont know who's responsible for making the decision to deploy nuclear weapons for the US?



There are (at least) two problems with claiming "slippery slope" over this:

First, we're already well onto any sort of slope this could represent. Inseperable from our social contract is the idea that you (the individual) aren't allowed to do things that impinge upon others because you feel like it. We have noise laws, smoking laws, speed limits; the list goes on forever. And yet with noise laws, we dont have some automatic system that dampens any noise production proactively, its a reactive law. With smoking laws, you arent frisked for carrying too many ciggs, and you can still smoke in your own house. Speed limits, we dont have regulators in our cars that automatically adjust ou car's speed to match the posted speed on the particular section of street you're on. Bad examples all of them.

In short, there already is significant regulation in my home, your home, everybody's home. The government won't even let you live in a home if they find it's not built to their satisfaction, ffs.
Name me one practice or better yet - utility in my home thats regulated and automatically controlled by an outside entity without my consent, knowledge, or authorization.


Second, laws aren't created based on precedent (c.f. prohibition, slavery). A slippery slope doesn't even make sense in such an environment.
It does when you start adjusting laws such as this.

Think about it. Why is California, specific areas within (around massive population centers), having trouble with power shortages?

Drastic increase in population while utility industry being unable to keep up with demand due to restrictive laws governing the construction, use, and sale of generation and transmission infrastructure in the state.

California's deregulation then re-attempt at regulation by instituting price caps on energy costs that created huge shortages in supply when the prices rose beyond normal. As learned in the past with gas prices, you dont institute price caps on things without expecting a huge surge in demand and a huge drop in supply.

If society insists in populating the west coast, then society needs to influence government to stimulate the increase in infrastructure in order to adequately compensate for said increase in population. Furthermore, if society insists on choosing the west coast as a preferable place to live over other areas, thus overbalancing existing infrastructure, then society needs to expect a natural increase in equilibrium prices reflecting that increase in demand. And said government needs to stop interferring with demand stimulated growth in the power industry which creates artificial shortages.

Because of these types of interferrence is it fair and or right to ask those who can afford new or modified housing to suffer an undue burden for the larger majority who can not? Furthermore should an outside entity be given the arbitrary authority to directly control consumption that should normally be dictated through free market pricing and competition?

Instead of this type of legislation, why not allow utility providers/distributors to include in their terms of service (Contracts) the intention of regulation of power consumption during peak hours and let the consumer CHOOSE whether or not they wish to participate. And, with that choice, educate the consumer of the consequences (rolling blackouts, etc.) that happen when there is no participation. That way either new growh is stimulated through competetive demand or the market effects a change in consumption voluntarily, not through a big-brother (nanny state) approach. Thats the slippery slope I'm concerned of - funny how that coincides with Califorina being one of the most liberal (socialist) states in the US...

The power shortage is really just a symptom of a larger problem that additional legislation, intrusive legislation, will not cure in the long run.

[Latrinsorm]

You mean you dont know who's responsible for making the decision to deploy nuclear weapons for the US?I don't know who's got his or her hands on the various keys in the silos, and that's really what you have to be worried about.
Name me one practice or better yet - utility in my home thats regulated and automatically controlled by an outside entity without my consent, knowledge, or authorization.Water for one. I'm not sure what you mean by without your knowledge, because this proposal is obviously public knowledge, but any way you can finagle consent or authorization into your water pact applies just as well to your heat (or AC).

As to the rest, if we could trust everyone to make ethical, reasoned decisions about their various habits we wouldn't need a government in the first place. If we wanted to talk about a psychological screening system before we let people count as adults, then sure, but somehow that doesn't seem like something you'd endorse given your previous posts in this topic.

[Gan]

I don't know who's got his or her hands on the various keys in the silos, and that's really what you have to be worried about.Water for one.
Actually the president has the launch codes and the command authority to initiate the launch sequence, missles cant be fired from the silos alone, the buck stops with someone in a position of authority. Again, thats why I told you it was a bad example.


I'm not sure what you mean by without your knowledge, because this proposal is obviously public knowledge, but any way you can finagle consent or authorization into your water pact applies just as well to your heat (or AC).
Apples and oranges, sorry if you're having trouble understanding that.


As to the rest, if we could trust everyone to make ethical, reasoned decisions about their various habits we wouldn't need a government in the first place.
If pigs could fly.... If government had not bound the utility market with stupid restrictions to begin with, if they had not have restricted growth and capacity capability to begin with they would not be in this mess, if they even considered the growth of the population centers as compared to the need of those population centers.... IF IF IF IF IF IFIFIFIFIFIFIF.
This is one area where they need to fix what they have screwed up, then let the market sort it out as it should. For the time being, they're punishing the little guy and the medium sized guy in the name of the little guy.

I'm only harping on this because of the implication it has on future governmental interference with my home (castle). Reasonable laws are one thing, this is quite another.

[Latrinsorm]

Actually the president has the launch codes and the command authority to initiate the launch sequence, missles cant be fired from the silos alone, the buck stops with someone in a position of authority.a) Source?
b) There's always someone in a position of authority. The question is only whether the measures in place sufficiently empower this authority figure. Like I said, fearmongering over thermostats?
Apples and oranges, sorry if you're having trouble understanding that.Water isn't a utility anymore?
If pigs could flyI'm not sure what you thought I said, but my point was that your proposed solution relies on a hypothetical that does not have much historical backing.
I'm only harping on this because of the implication it has on future governmental interference with my home (castle).There are none. Every law has been made on its own basis and nothing more.

[TheEschaton]

Well, duh, Gan, this is just part of the vast left wing conspiracy to start controlling your children.

And you think we need tinfoil hats? We're worried when the gov't lies to us, you're worried that someone is arbitrarily gonna FREEZE YOU TO DEATH FOR NO GOOD REASON OMFG!!!!!1111oneone111!!

-TheE-

[Keller]

Well, duh, Gan, this is just part of the vast left wing conspiracy to start controlling your children.

And you think we need tinfoil hats? We're worried when the gov't lies to us, you're worried that someone is arbitrarily gonna FREEZE YOU TO DEATH FOR NO GOOD REASON OMFG!!!!!1111oneone111!!

-TheE-

To be fair, he lives in Houston, he's afraid they're going to smoke him out.

[Drew]

Another reason I hate the People's Socialist Republic of California.

People are saying "would you like your thermostat raised or no power" but the reason there's no power is because of all the stupid regulations California implements the first place. Yet they have to gall to demand something like this because of the governments own idiocy.

[TheEschaton]

Or, it could be because companies like Enron ripped them off.

Yanno, potayto, potato.

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

a) Source?
b) There's always someone in a position of authority. The question is only whether the measures in place sufficiently empower this authority figure. .





Not sure of the source as I learned it in college and can't remember shit (had to do with submarines) but they've changed it and now the president (or whomever is acting in his position) has the final and only say in a nuke launch. Whereas before others were allowed in situations to pull the trigger.

Apparently we've had some pins and needles close calls going back to the Cuban crisis. (minutes)

[Gan]

a) Source?
The release of nuclear weapons is governed by the two-man rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-man_rule) at all times. If the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense, acting jointly as the National Command Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Command_Authority), decide the United States must launch nuclear weapons, they will direct the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (CJCS) to do so, specifying MAOs or LAOs that are in the SIOP. The CJCS in turn will direct the general officer on duty in addition to one other officer on duty in the National Military Command Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Military_Command_Center) (NMCC) at the Pentagon to release an Emergency Action Message (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Action_Message) (EAM) to all nuclear forces. Additionally, the message will go to the Alternate National Military Command Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site_R) (ANMCC), located in Raven Rock Mountain, Pennsylvania, and also to the National Airborne Operations Center (NAOC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-4B)). If the NMCC is destroyed by a first strike, either the ANMCC or the NAOC (previously Looking Glass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_Glass_%28airplane%29), now TACAMO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TACAMO)) can execute the SIOP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Integrated_Operational_Plan
http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/warplan/execsum.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Football



b) There's always someone in a position of authority. The question is only whether the measures in place sufficiently empower this authority figure.
There is not any outside authority figure that can arbitrarily control anything within the walls of my home currently without my consent. Why start now?


Like I said, fearmongering over thermostats?
Congrats on failing to see the larger implication, even when its explained in repeated posts.


Water isn't a utility anymore?
Water is a utility, yet controlled very differently, specifically how its regulated. Again, apples and oranges. Its sadly funny that you can see the difference.


I'm not sure what you thought I said, but my point was that your proposed solution relies on a hypothetical that does not have much historical backing.There are none. Every law has been made on its own basis and nothing more.
My proposed solution on state sponsored stimulus to help bring up the base infrastructure then letting the free market take over doesnt have any historical backing? LOL See post WWII reconstruction and economic recovery in the US as well as UK. I guess that went a little over your head so I wont pick on you for missing that one, well too much anyways.
:lol:

[Gan]

Another reason I hate the People's Socialist Republic of California.

People are saying "would you like your thermostat raised or no power" but the reason there's no power is because of all the stupid regulations California implements the first place. Yet they have to gall to demand something like this because of the governments own idiocy.

Point earned.

Someone posting here actually understands the problem.

:clap:

[Gan]

Or, it could be because companies like Enron ripped them off.

Yanno, potayto, potato.

-TheE-

Yep, Enron was guilty as hell in ripping off California in brokering energy that was imported frou outside states. They took advantage of pricing caps and exploited the position of broker/middle man. And they got caught. It still doesnt address the real problem nor offer up a real solution. Much like your posts in this thread. ;)

[Gan]

Another good article.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/who_will_control_your_thermost.html

[Gan]

New thermostats in homes and businesses would be fitted with technology that would allow utilities to change a building's temperature by remote control under a proposal being considered by state energy officials.

Yet after a public outcry by critics worried about Big Brother dictating home temperatures, officials with the California Energy Commission said this week that they will change the proposed regulation so that customers would have the option of blocking outside control of their thermostats.

The new "smart thermostats," supporters said, could help ease summertime power emergencies by allowing officials to limit the use of air conditioning.

The revised regulation still will require installation of remote-control thermostats but will allow consumers the option of overriding outside control, commission spokeswoman Claudia Chandler said.
...
Some lawmakers expressed strong misgivings.

"I don't think the CEC (California Energy Commission) should be going into people's homes to control their electricity," said Assemblyman Lloyd Levine, D-Van Nuys, who heads the Assembly committee on utilities and commerce. "The state should provide people with incentives and education to do this on their own."

The committee's vice chairman, Rick Keene, R-Chico, agreed.
"It feels awfully Orwellian to me if you have the utility, with the government's blessing, be able to change the thermostat setting," Keene said.

He said the lack of a clear definition of "emergency event" might allow utilities to cut costs by purposely not buying enough power and then declaring an emergency.

Mindy Spatt, spokeswoman for the San Francisco-based utility consumer watchdog group TURN, said the proposal for remote-controlled thermostats shouldn't "be forced down people's throats."

She also said the program would be expensive and financed by ratepayers. She questioned whether it would be cost-effective.

more...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/12/MNHDUDAQ3.DTL&hw=remote+control&sn=001&sc=1000


__________________________________________________ ________


Seems that I'm not the only one who thinks this legislation is bad news... ;)

[Latrinsorm]

The release of nuclear weapons is governed by the two-man rule at all times.All that says is the President (and JCS guy) orders the strike, not that they are in possession of a code without which launches cannot occur.
Congrats on failing to see the larger implication, even when its explained in repeated posts.Congrats on failing to recognize that our legislature is (still) not based on precedent.
Water is a utility, yet controlled very differently, specifically how its regulated.Your challenge was, and I quote: "Name me one practice or better yet - utility in my home thats regulated and automatically controlled by an outside entity without my consent, knowledge, or authorization." I gave you such a utility. You can certainly point out that not all utilities are the same and I will certainly agree with you. This doesn't change your original point.
My proposed solution on state sponsored stimulus to help bring up the base infrastructure then letting the free market take over doesnt have any historical backing?"letting the free market take over" doesn't, no. Besides the general problem of there not having been a free market in the United States for decades (if ever), all I have to point out in this specific case is the GI Bill and the free market goes out the window.
Seems that I'm not the only one who thinks this legislation is bad newsI don't think anyone would be surprised by public outcry over this, but before this thread I would have guessed you would have been all for something like this. Everyone dislikes blackouts but nobody wants to take personal responsibility for them: so make them do so by (for instance) limiting power consumption. As it stands now, anyone who actually does reduce their consumption gets nothing out of it (there are still blackouts) and thus is worse off than the people with their AC cranked to the max 24/7.

[Gan]

All that says is the President (and JCS guy) orders the strike, not that they are in possession of a code without which launches cannot occur.
Obviously you didnt look at the links.


Congrats on failing to recognize that our legislature is (still) not based on precedent.
You mean to say our laws arent based on precedent? Seriously?


Really?Your challenge was, and I quote: "Name me one practice or better yet - utility in my home thats regulated and automatically controlled by an outside entity without my consent, knowledge, or authorization." I gave you such a utility. You can certainly point out that not all utilities are the same and I will certainly agree with you.
And how is water automatically regulated in your home? In mine? Can the water company automatically and randomly reduce the amount of water that you use? Again, apples and oranges. Water is NOT regulated the same as this would be. Please continue to look for another comparison, this one has failed.


This doesn't change your original point."letting the free market take over" doesn't, no. Besides the general problem of there not having been a free market in the United States for decades (if ever), all I have to point out in this specific case is the GI Bill and the free market goes out the window.
Please elaborate on this, because I'm waiving the bullshit flag. And by free market I mean as it is currently in the US, without direct government intervention (unregulated). Because we all know that there is no such thing as a pure free market economy, so quit trying to base your rebuttal on that interpretation.


I don't think anyone would be surprised by public outcry over this, but before this thread I would have guessed you would have been all for something like this. Everyone dislikes blackouts but nobody wants to take personal responsibility for them: so make them do so by (for instance) limiting power consumption. As it stands now, anyone who actually does reduce their consumption gets nothing out of it (there are still blackouts) and thus is worse off than the people with their AC cranked to the max 24/7.
You would have guessed wrong. I am all for personal responsibility and all against big brother directly controlling daily aspects of my home life. Furthermore, the government wont be the ones doing the controlling of the thermostats - they will delegate that to the power companies - which is just as bad. And it is great if people man up and reduce their usage - but that should be voluntary - not an Orewellian condition of use of a public utility. And to add to this, its an ill thought out solution simply because the thermostat controls do NOT take into consideration attempts to interfer with the radio signal (remote) nor do they apply to the millions of middle-class/lower class homes that are not affected by this bill. Additionally the controls do not take into effect all the homes with non-central controlled AC/Heat units (window units) which are to a degree less efficient than the larger central systems. I wonder how many legislators have stock or will have stock in window mounted AC unit manufacturers/distributors if this were to pass?

[Latrinsorm]

Obviously you didnt look at the links.I looked at the one that said "DON'T NUKE RUSSIA OMG" and the one you quoted. The only mention of any codes whatsoever are ones used for the President to identify himself (or herself, har!) as the President: once again, nothing that prevents the fellows with the keys from taking it upon themselves to decide that those Chinese sons of bitches are going down.
You mean to say our laws arent based on precedent? Seriously?Once again, c.f. prohibition. Our judicial system is the one that's based largely on precedent, not our legislative system.
And how is water automatically regulated in your home? In mine? Can the water company automatically and randomly reduce the amount of water that you use?In an emergency situation, you betcha. Next time there's a drought, leave your hose running and see what happens. Or you could just ask Oregon:
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=10413
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klamath_Falls,_Oregon

Do I know the exact mechanics of this regulation? No, I'm not an engineer and never claimed to be one. All I know is water (a utility) is regulated in an emergency situation, which is exactly what California proposed to do. There's nothing "random" about it.
Because we all know that there is no such thing as a pure free market economy, so quit trying to base your rebuttal on that interpretation.Your arbitrary distinction between compulsory education, the GI bill, and that awful liberal socialist Orwellian nanny state illustrates the failings in your model well enough. (Failings in the sense of inapplicability.)

[Gan]

I looked at the one that said "DON'T NUKE RUSSIA OMG" and the one you quoted. The only mention of any codes whatsoever are ones used for the President to identify himself (or herself, har!) as the President: once again, nothing that prevents the fellows with the keys from taking it upon themselves to decide that those Chinese sons of bitches are going down.
Your ignorance of even unconfirmed SIOP procedures is amazing. No sense in debating this particular part of your points without your further education.


Once again, c.f. prohibition. Our judicial system is the one that's based largely on precedent, not our legislative system.
Not that our legislative system makes the laws by which our judicial system enforces or anything. :clap: (strike 2)



In an emergency situation, you betcha. Next time there's a drought, leave your hose running and see what happens. Or you could just ask Oregon:
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=10413
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klamath_Falls,_Oregon
Apples and oranges again. Keep trying though, I'm sure you'll figure it out soon! :)


Do I know the exact mechanics of this regulation?
Reading the article in the OP would remedy your ignrance here.


No, I'm not an engineer and never claimed to be one. All I know is water (a utility) is regulated in an emergency situation, which is exactly what California proposed to do.
See apples and oranges on why these two regulations differ, why one is way less invasive than the other, and why the more invasive one is not an outright denail or reactive enforcement which is what you keep trying to allude to. For the last time, your example of water is hugely, vastly, drastically different than putting a radio controlled thermostat into someone's house and then letting the electric utility company regulate it arbitrarily without the homeowners acknowledgement or consent. The fact of the matter is you cant find a simliar instance where a service is regulated like this in any household in America, period. Just admit it.



There's nothing "random" about it.Your arbitrary distinction between compulsory education, the GI bill, and that awful liberal socialist Orwellian nanny state illustrates the failings in your model well enough. (Failings in the sense of inapplicability.)
Failings of a model that is successfully run in 49 other electric utility unregulated states. Failings of a model that has sense been put into practice based on a theory of a (somewhat) free market economy since before WWII. Whatever you say. :lol:

You should just stop here, this is starting to feel like kicking a puppy.

[Latrinsorm]

Your ignorance of even unconfirmed SIOP procedures is amazing.What's amazing is your inability to source it when it's apparently so well-known, even with Wikipedia.
Not that our legislative system makes the laws by which our judicial system enforces or anything.The executive branch enforces, remember? The judicial system not only doesn't use legislature as precedent but doesn't even have to prosecute based on it.
Reading the article in the OP would remedy your ignrance here.I was talking about the exact mechanism of the water regulation and referring to your asking "how" such regulation occurred. Apparently because it doesn't have a radio it's a completely different proposition as far as you're concerned.
why one is way less invasive than the otherIt's way less invasive to take what I literally need to live?
The fact of the matter is you cant find a simliar instance where a service is regulated like this in any household in America, period. Just admit it.The fact of the matter is that you continue to call the proposed regulation "arbitrary" when it's explicitly stated as emergency-only, "apples and oranges" when it's compared to another regulated utility, and "precedent" when the very concept is nonsensical in legislature.
Failings of a modelThat you think your model applies when every example you cite involves the "regulation" you are so eager to demonstrate the failings of is inexplicable.

[Gan]

What's amazing is your inability to source it when it's apparently so well-known, even with Wikipedia.
I'm citing whats known, explicit SIOP protocols wount be published or found as they tend to be labeled TOP SECRET. Use your head dimwitt.


The executive branch enforces, remember? The judicial system not only doesn't use legislature as precedent but doesn't even have to prosecute based on it.
Legislature makes laws correct? Many of the laws that they have passed, especially early on came from where? English law perhaps? Christian rules like the Bible perhaps? If you cant call that precedence, I dont know what you can call precedence.


I was talking about the exact mechanism of the water regulation and referring to your asking "how" such regulation occurred. Apparently because it doesn't have a radio it's a completely different proposition as far as you're concerned.
Actually you've completely missed the difference in how the regulation is enacted/enforced. Notwithstanding that, yes how this new regulation is 'mechanised' is hugely the issue since its controlled from your home.


It's way less invasive to take what I literally need to live?
ZOOOOOOOM, that one went right over your head. Did you feel the breeze?


The fact of the matter is that you continue to call the proposed regulation "arbitrary" when it's explicitly stated as emergency-only, "apples and oranges" when it's compared to another regulated utility, and "precedent" when the very concept is nonsensical in legislature.
Again, how water is regulated in California is totally different then their proposed regulation of radio controlled central heating and cooling thermostats - hence the 'apples and oranges' comparison.


That you think your model applies when every example you cite involves the "regulation" you are so eager to demonstrate the failings of is inexplicable.
That you fail to understand the difference or see how it applies to the larger picture is amazingly... predictable.

Great job!

:clap:


(your turn)

[Latrinsorm]

I'm citing whats known... Use your head dimwitt.Oh ok, then I cite the fact that stuff like this happens all the time and it's nothing to worry about. I don't have to corroborate that in any way either! Ding!

[Gan]

Oh ok, then I cite the fact that stuff like this happens all the time and it's nothing to worry about. I don't have to corroborate that in any way either! Ding!

Stellar response.

[Latrinsorm]

Hey hey, no fighting after the bell. :no:

[Celephais]

I'm a little late to the party here, and haven't caught up reading, but to me I think this is a relatively painless step to prevent us from hitting a much worse slippery slope: rationing.

With the shortages they have I could see them turning to rationing electricity, and that would just suck.

[Bhuryn]

I have a novel idea, how about you require the jackasses producing the energy to increase their efficiency and require a certain percentage of green energy.

[Krendeli]

Just let California fall off into the ocean and be done with it.

[Gan]

I have a novel idea, how about you require the jackasses producing the energy to increase their efficiency and require a certain percentage of green energy.

The 'Green' movement (pre-Gore) is probably part of the reason why the state inhibited the needed increase in generation and transmission infrastructure to begin with. They simply thought power grew on trees instead of ramping up for the much evident increase in demand.

[Keller]

Just let California fall off into the ocean and be done with it.


Or you could let us secede. Think you dislike California? We dislike you twice as much!

[Gan]

Or you could let us secede. Think you dislike California? We dislike you twice as much!

I'd vote for that.

Let Arnold and Pelosi battle to see who's King.

[Fallen]

I would ...Good thread, stupid bot making me want to participate in long dead argument.

[Gan]

LOL

That fucking rocks!

[Fallen]

LOL

That fucking rocks!

Since I am lazy and you are not..what happened with this issue?

[Gan]

No idea, if I'm still awake later on tonight I'll look it up.

[radamanthys]

I would ...Good thread, stupid bot making me want to participate in long dead argument.


True story.

[crb]

I'm from the government and I'm hear to help.



What if you're an elderly person sitting at home (because you can't work) needing your air on or you'll have respiratory distress?

What if you have solar panels (on grid) and would be supplying your own power to power your AC?


If you want people to use less of something, charge more for it. People who don't need the air on during the day will then spend $20 on a programmable thermostat to turn it off between 9 and 4:30. The reason there are shortages is that utilities are not allowed, by the government, to charge market prices. If the utilities were to charge market prices many people would not be able to afford energy, they would complain and vote differently, and suddenly all the government restrictions on new infrastructure and power generation would vanish, thus increasing the supply, thus lowering the price.

Instead the government regulates prices which unhinges supply and demand which results in shortages, but which keep prices low enough to buy votes.

[Fallen]

That, or attach a light or a sound to play when demands are close to blackout levels. It goes off and the person can choose to turn it down, or leave it on. Hell, have an increased fee for the electricity should the people wish to keep it on, and have an option to have the AC lowered automatically to avoid the fine.

Options are good. Mandatory actions are bad.

[radamanthys]

I'd love to see the guy show up and say, "I see that your radio controlled thermostat is broken, I'm here to fix it".

His face would be priceless when he saw that I had 2 air conditioners on next to two space heaters, both going full blast to make a balmy 72.

I turn on my hairdryer for heat, and open my freezer for air.

Spite is a good reason to do anything.

[Fallen]

Indeed. There would be a whole slew of electricity based injuries as people attempt to hack their AC.

[ClydeR]

An easy restriction to skirt. Just plug in a portable space hearter and aim it at the thermostat.

[Trouble]

An easy restriction to skirt. Just plug in a portable space hearter and aim it at the thermostat.
or extend the wires so that you can leave the thermostat outside or in the attic.

[Proxy]

Yay for being on a boat and not having to deal with crap like this & the people who think it up. My boat, my micro bio-diesel plant, my diesel gen & engines, my solar power panels, my wind turbine, my sails, my always blasting polar ice cap-esc AC, my $Zero.ZEROzero utility bill, and my Plank & Cutlass... YAR, ye be take'n a short walk now ye skurvey sosialit! Now uf me boat n ta the locker wit yu, ARRR!!!

Worst thing I have to deal with now is the occasional Hassle from harbor patrol/coast guard. & Wow do they get pissy some times for me flying the black & white. :( & I don't even want to go into the mess I got into when I was playing around with the two deck cannons I have on her in what I thought was international waters....

[radamanthys]

Yay for being on a boat and not having to deal with crap like this & the people who think it up. My boat, my micro bio-diesel plant, my diesel gen & engines, my solar power panels, my wind turbine, my sails, my always blasting polar ice cap-esc AC, my $Zero.ZEROzero utility bill, and my Plank & Cutlass... YAR, ye be take'n a short walk now ye skurvey sosialit! Now uf me boat n ta the locker wit yu, ARRR!!!

Worst thing I have to deal with now is the occasional Hassle from harbor patrol/coast guard. & Wow do they get pissy some times for me flying the black & white. :( & I don't even want to go into the mess I got into when I was playing around with the two deck cannons I have on her in what I thought was international waters....

That is the most epic thing I've ever heard. Rep forever!

Mine's the one that starts "arrrr". I forgot to sign it.

[Gan]

Yar! Positive rep from me too for that story Proxy. :lol:

[Celephais]

It's a big blue watery road.

[Gan]

An easy restriction to skirt. Just plug in a portable space hearter and aim it at the thermostat.

Maybe if you're lucky you'll burn your house down with that same space heater.

That'll show em!