Murtha: "I think the surge is working."

[Gan]

WASHINGTON - U.S. Rep. John Murtha today said he saw signs of military progress during a brief trip to Iraq last week, but he warned that Iraqis need to play a larger role in providing their own security and the Bush administration still must develop an exit strategy.

"I think the 'surge' is working," the Democrat said in a videoconference from his Johnstown office, describing the president's decision to commit more than 20,000 additional combat troops this year. But the Iraqis "have got to take care of themselves."

Violence has dropped significantly in recent months, but Mr. Murtha said he was most encouraged by changes in the once-volatile Anbar province, where locals have started working closely with U.S. forces to isolate insurgents linked to Al Qaeda.

He said Iraqis need to duplicate that success at the national level, but the central government in Baghdad is "dysfunctional."

Mr. Murtha's four day-trip took him to a Thanksgiving dinner with troops in Kuwait last Thursday, and he then made stops in Iraq, Turkey and Belgium.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07333/837824-100.stm
__________________________________________________ ___

:clap:

[Keller]

I'm hopeful that we can get out of that mess sooner rather than later. It's time to move on. (.org)

[Methais]

Iraqis will never be self sufficient. No matter what we do over there, it'll be overrun and turn to shit as soon as we leave.

[TheEschaton]

I saw this on the Drudge Report this morning, I was wondering when it would show up here. Thanks, Gan, for coming through.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

I saw this on the Drudge Report this morning, I was wondering when it would show up here. Thanks, Gan, for coming through.

-TheE-


Yea.. it's good news, so it's not a surprise you won't read it on cnn.com

The real question is.. why didn't you post something about it? Oh.. because you and your ilk are dependant upon bad news out of Iraq.

Boo hoo..

[TheEschaton]

Alright, I will post something on it: Murtha clarifies statement (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ibDeMEMDEYv4V-eqfWH0lbqZe6RwD8T8CL702)


Murtha Clarifies Iraq Statement
By KIMBERLY HEFLING – 3 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — War critic Rep. John Murtha on Friday clarified an earlier statement that seemingly expressed optimism about President Bush's plan that increased troops in Iraq. Murtha emphasized that he still thinks the war should end.

After making a trip to Iraq last week, Murtha, D-Pa., told reporters Thursday, "I think the surge is working." But he said that was just one element and the United States was still failing diplomatically in the country.

Republicans pounced on the surge comment as evidence that Bush's plan, implemented earlier this year, has been effective.

On Friday, Murtha issued a statement saying he still does not think the war can be won militarily.

"The military surge has created a window of opportunity for the Iraqi government," Murtha said Friday. "Unfortunately, the sacrifice of our troops has not been met by the Iraqi government and they have failed to capitalize on the political and diplomatic steps that the surge was designed to provide."

Two years ago, Murtha, chairman of the defense appropriations subcommittee, shocked Capitol Hill when he came out in opposition to the war. The Vietnam veteran and retired Marine reserves colonel had historically been hawkish on war issues.

Since then, he has become a vocal opponent of the Iraq war.


The quote further goes on to say:


The fact remains that the war in Iraq cannot be won militarily, and that we must begin an orderly redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq as soon as practicable."

"We can no longer afford to spend $14 billion a month on this war and let our readiness slip," Murtha said.


Oh, and I found those last two quotes on FoxNews, PB, you didn't even need to turn to the Communist News Network...funnily enough, can't find this story on Drudge any more now that there's been a clarification.

[Gan]

"The surge hasn't accomplished its goals," Reid said. "... We're involved, still, in an intractable civil war."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/1207/Reid_pushes_back_on_Iraq_optimism.html
__________________________________________________ _

Seems not all agree with Murtha's (and the other visiting Dems assessments).

[TheEschaton]

You just skipped over my post right above yours, huh?

[Gan]

So which is it?



After making a trip to Iraq last week, Murtha, D-Pa., told reporters Thursday, "I think the surge is working." But he said that was just one element and the United States was still failing diplomatically in the country.

-OR-


The fact remains that the war in Iraq cannot be won militarily, and that we must begin an orderly redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq as soon as practicable."

Clear as mud.

The first quote states that the military surge is working and yet we're failing diplomatically.
The second quote states that we cant win the war militarily.
:banghead:

[Gan]

You just skipped over my post right above yours, huh?

Yea, it took me a while to translate all the bullshit.

[Gan]

I saw this on the Drudge Report this morning, I was wondering when it would show up here. Thanks, Gan, for coming through.

-TheE-

Albiet a late response, but yes, this was covered by more than just highlighted on Drudge.

In fact, your Drudge excuse for discrediting a story is really humouous since Drudge only links stories already posted elsewhere. So yea, BONNY FOR JOOO FOR ELIMINATING THE HUGE THREAD OF DRUDGE INFLUENCE!!!

(idiot)

[Daniel]

What exactly is bullshit? Do you even know what the surge is supposed to do?

[Gan]

What exactly is bullshit? Do you even know what the surge is supposed to do?

D team to the rescue!

[Kembal]

The first quote states that the military surge is working and yet we're failing diplomatically.
The second quote states that we cant win the war militarily.
:banghead:

Those aren't mutually exclusive statements.

The troop surge can be working. (I'm not sure if its the troop surge working as so much as other elements of the counterinsurgency strategy that are working, but overall, yes, something is going right. for once.) That doesn't mean it solves the root fundamental problems on the ground in Iraq, which is political and social reconciliation. It just creates breathing room for a chance at it, assuming all parties are genuinely interested in having said reconciliation.

[Daniel]

D team to the rescue!

Great response. In other words: No.

[Gan]

Great response. In other words: No.

Actually, I do.

I just took a page out of your book to give back to you.

Thanks for playing.

[Daniel]

Oooh. Burn. You sure showed us.

[Gan]

Oooh. Burn. You sure showed us.

LOL D Team Unite!

Coming from you, thats awesome. Maybe if I keep it up you'll make a thread about me too?

[Bobmuhthol]

Republican supporters are the sole reason I hate the Republican party.

[Gan]

Those aren't mutually exclusive statements.
I interpret them as exclusive political statements designed to either backtrack on an earlier comment or to at least muddy the water to appease Murtha's leaders and or constitutents.



The troop surge can be working. (I'm not sure if its the troop surge working as so much as other elements of the counterinsurgency strategy that are working, but overall, yes, something is going right. for once.) That doesn't mean it solves the root fundamental problems on the ground in Iraq, which is political and social reconciliation. It just creates breathing room for a chance at it, assuming all parties are genuinely interested in having said reconciliation.
Actually, as I understand it, the counterinsurgency strategy was part of Operation Phantom Thunder which had many sub-operations. One operation in particular that was drawn into it was Operation Law and Order (Fardh al-Qanoon), which started before Phantom Thunder, where the basic premise was to clear Baghdad from insurgents, control that area with a full time security force (law/order) presence, and then retain that order when control is turned over completely to Iraqi security forces. The direct targets were the Sunni insurgents and the Shiite militias, and of course any Al Quaeda operatives that might be operating there.

As far as measuring success, there appears to be noticeable improvements (as initially echoed by Murtha and others) in the areas targeted by the operations at its beginning. The real question is how long will they last that way. I bolded the part of your quote that iterates what I think the underlying goal is.

[Parkbandit]

Great response. In other words: No.

WE HAVE A CODE HYPOCRITE ALERT! CODE HYPOCRITE ALERT! PLEASE REPORT TO YOUR DUTY STATIONS AND BEGIN IMMEDIATE BOMBARDMENT.

THANK YOU.

[Parkbandit]

Republican supporters are the sole reason I hate the Republican party.

Thankfully, you are not old enough to vote. I could see it now "I would vote for a Republican, but Ganalon and PB make me so angry on teh internetwebz, I need to vote for a Democrat to show them!"

[Celephais]

Republican supporters are the sole reason I hate the Republican party.
Umm... I would hope this applies to the democrats as well, asshats abound on either side of the fence. Unfortunately substance isn't something voters have been voting on, and as a correlation, no candidates have any.

And I'm a democrat.

[Gan]

Umm... I would hope this applies to the democrats as well, asshats abound on either side of the fence. Unfortunately substance isn't something voters have been voting on, and as a correlation, no candidates have any.

And I'm a democrat.

I was going to respond in kind; however, it would have just been shrugged off as another R supporter bloviating.

:thanx:

[Parkbandit]

And I'm a democrat.

This r why I vote Republican.

[Celephais]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfSwS4OO51w&feature=related
A video of americans teaching the Iraqi's PT ... the third guy from the right is hilarious. Apparently they've never heard of jumping jacks in the middle east.

[Kembal]

I interpret them as exclusive political statements designed to either backtrack on an earlier comment or to at least muddy the water to appease Murtha's leaders and or constitutents.

Again, Gan, how can they be exclusive?

The surge is working = we're having military success in creating room for diplomatic efforts for political reconciliation
We are failing diplomatically = we're not able to acheive a political reconciliation through our diplomatic efforts
The war can't be won militarily = Military success cannot, by itself, achieve political reconciliation

I don't see any other way to interpret that.


Actually, as I understand it, the counterinsurgency strategy was part of Operation Phantom Thunder which had many sub-operations. One operation in particular that was drawn into it was Operation Law and Order (Fardh al-Qanoon), which started before Phantom Thunder, where the basic premise was to clear Baghdad from insurgents, control that area with a full time security force (law/order) presence, and then retain that order when control is turned over completely to Iraqi security forces. The direct targets were the Sunni insurgents and the Shiite militias, and of course any Al Quaeda operatives that might be operating there.

That's describing the surge into Baghdad. But I'd say at the same time, one of the key components of the entire strategy is that we armed the Sunni tribes and got them to go after Al-Qaeda in Iraq. If we didn't empower them to go after Al-Qaeda in Iraq, they'd still be forced to work with them. That has nothing to do specifically with a surge in troops, but taking advantage of a rift between the local Sunni insurgents and the foriegn Al-Qaeda terrorists. Tactically, it worked very well, though obviously arming Sunnis only heightened mistrust amongst Shias.


As far as measuring success, there appears to be noticeable improvements (as initially echoed by Murtha and others) in the areas targeted by the operations at its beginning. The real question is how long will they last that way. I bolded the part of your quote that iterates what I think the underlying goal is.

Right. There we don't disagree, and that's getting echoed by the generals on the ground as well. (I believe Odierno just said the same recently) The window isn't indefinite however...the Sunni tribes aren't going to sit around and wait for the Shia-led government to accept them. If they feel like the government is going to screw them by just waiting forever, they'll go back to insurgency. And then there's nothing we can do.

[Daniel]

Actually, as I understand it, the counterinsurgency strategy was part of Operation Phantom Thunder which had many sub-operations. One operation in particular that was drawn into it was Operation Law and Order (Fardh al-Qanoon), which started before Phantom Thunder, where the basic premise was to clear Baghdad from insurgents, control that area with a full time security force (law/order) presence, and then retain that order when control is turned over completely to Iraqi security forces. The direct targets were the Sunni insurgents and the Shiite militias, and of course any Al Quaeda operatives that might be operating there.



That would be half of it.

The other half is strengthening the capacity of the Iraqi institutions so that they could maintain the effects of the surge.

NM Will upload graphic when I'm at home. IT's in the second link

If you're interested, I'd suggest looking at these materials: http://www.crs.state.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=public.display&id=c065fc4e-065b-4c47-ab16-0acdd1807ede

http://www.crs.state.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=file.DownloadForm&WEBSITE_OBJECT_ID=2499256c-6809-4e36-b92b-d359bffa35fa&returnto=e96c5d8c-a770-404f-aab6-5de717f6a22c

[Gan]

Again, Gan, how can they be exclusive?

The surge is working = we're having military success in creating room for diplomatic efforts for political reconciliation
We are failing diplomatically = we're not able to acheive a political reconciliation through our diplomatic efforts
The war can't be won militarily = Military success cannot, by itself, achieve political reconciliation

I don't see any other way to interpret that.
Allright, I can roll with that.

[sst]

One operation in particular that was drawn into it was Operation Law and Order (Fardh al-Qanoon).

That little operation which took the better part of my time in Baghdad was a Bitch... Nothing but 18 hour days of house to house clearing 6 days a week with a day off.

Its nice to know from a lot of news reports that are coming out lately that things are getting better. I remember what a lot of neighborhoods in the news used to be like. One area / Day i remember well, we lost 4 strykers going in and had about 25 injured form IED blasts (they were slightly dug in and it took a few large firefights to establish who now owned the area) which was where we started the safe neighborhoods initiative has turned around and now shi'a families are moving back into the area which was completely controlled by ISI terrorists.

[Kembal]

ISI? Which group is that? (genuinely curious...I hear that acronym and I think of Pakistan first, so I'm not sure what it means in context of Iraq.)