F.B.I. Says Guards Killed 14 Iraqis Without Cause

[chillmonster]

F.B.I. Says Guards Killed 14 Iraqis Without Cause (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/14/world/middleeast/14blackwater.html?ex=1352696400&en=baf513ff1e78a9fd&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

By DAVID JOHNSTON and JOHN M. BRODER
Published: November 14, 2007


WASHINGTON, Nov. 13 — Federal agents investigating the Sept. 16 episode in which Blackwater security personnel shot and killed 17 Iraqi civilians have found that at least 14 of the shootings were unjustified and violated deadly-force rules in effect for security contractors in Iraq, according to civilian and military officials briefed on the case.

The F.B.I. investigation into the shootings in Baghdad is still under way, but the findings, which indicate that the company’s employees recklessly used lethal force, are already under review by the Justice Department.

Prosecutors have yet to decide whether to seek indictments, and some officials have expressed pessimism that adequate criminal laws exist to enable them to charge any Blackwater employee with criminal wrongdoing. Spokesmen for the Justice Department and the F.B.I. declined to discuss the matter.

The case could be one of the first thorny issues to be decided by Michael B. Mukasey, who was sworn in as attorney general last week. He may be faced with a decision to turn down a prosecution on legal grounds at a time when a furor has erupted in Congress about the administration’s failure to hold security contractors accountable for their misdeeds.

Representative David E. Price, a North Carolina Democrat who has sponsored legislation to extend American criminal law to contractors serving overseas, said the Justice Department must hold someone accountable for the shootings.

“Just because there are deficiencies in the law, and there certainly are,” Mr. Price said, “that can’t serve as an excuse for criminal actions like this to be unpunished. I hope the new attorney general makes this case a top priority. He needs to announce to the American people and the world that we uphold the rule of law and we intend to pursue this.”

Investigators have concluded that as many as five of the company’s guards opened fire during the shootings, at least some with automatic weapons. Investigators have focused on one guard, identified as “turret gunner No. 3,” who fired a large number of rounds and was responsible for several fatalities.

Investigators found no evidence to support assertions by Blackwater employees that they were fired upon by Iraqi civilians. That finding sharply contradicts initial assertions by Blackwater officials, who said that company employees fired in self-defense and that three company vehicles were damaged by gunfire.

Government officials said the shooting occurred when security guards fired in response to gunfire by other members of their unit in the mistaken belief that they were under attack. One official said, “I wouldn’t call it a massacre, but to say it was unwarranted is an understatement.”

Among the 17 killings, three may have been justified under rules that allow lethal force to be used in response to an imminent threat, the F.B.I. agents have concluded. They concluded that Blackwater guards might have perceived a threat when they opened fire on a white Kia sedan that moved toward Nisour Square after traffic had been stopped for a Blackwater convoy of four armored vehicles.

Two people were killed in the car, Ahmed Haithem Ahmed and his mother, Mohassin, a physician. Relatives said they were on a family errand and posed no threat to the Blackwater convoy.

Investigators said Blackwater guards might have felt endangered by a third, and unidentified, Iraqi who was killed nearby. But the investigators determined that the subsequent shootings of 14 Iraqis, some of whom were shot while fleeing the scene, were unprovoked.

Under the firearms policy governing all State Department employees and contractors, lethal force may be used “only in response to an imminent threat of deadly force or serious physical injury against the individual, those under the protection of the individual or other individuals.”

A separate military review of the Sept. 16 shootings concluded that all of the killings were unjustified and potentially criminal. One of the military investigators said the F.B.I. was being generous to Blackwater in characterizing any of the killings as justifiable.

Anne E. Tyrrell, a Blackwater spokeswoman, said she would have no comment until the F.B.I. released its findings.

[Sean of the Thread]

Nobody but you reads the liberal rags around here. What would we do without your meaningless updates.

[Warriorbird]

Read Gan's conservative updates. I think they should combine the threads.

[Gan]

Read Gan's conservative updates. I think they should combine the threads.

This is quite funny coming from someone too chicken shit or too ignorant to start his own thread for discussion.

How's the view from the cheap seats?

[Sean of the Thread]

This is quite funny coming from someone too chicken shit or too ignorant to start his own thread for discussion.

How's the view from the cheap seats?

Evidently the view is terrible because all of us fat people are down front.

[Clove]

“Just because there are deficiencies in the law, and there certainly are,” Mr. Price said, “that can’t serve as an excuse for criminal actions like this to be unpunished. I hope the new attorney general makes this case a top priority. He needs to announce to the American people and the world that we uphold the rule of law and we intend to pursue this.”

---

I'm interested in what Mr. Price said. If American contractors are hired by the Federal Government to work overseas don't they fall under Federal law and regulation?

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not seeing the loophole here. Wouldn't they be accountable to the same rules of deadly force as say the FBI or ATF (whether or not that's a comfort is a separate question)?

[Stanley Burrell]

What'd be really interesting is if our At. Gen. decides that the lives of human beings are somehow equivalent near and afar. By-and-by, through legal doctrine.

As long as we seem unfathomably politically concerned, yet make certain as to not prosecute this in any felonious manner, then all is well with the cosmos. Mr. President.

[chillmonster]

I refuse to believe even this administration could have hired a seperate military organization and placed them outside the rule of law. There's no way.

[Daniel]

“Just because there are deficiencies in the law, and there certainly are,” Mr. Price said, “that can’t serve as an excuse for criminal actions like this to be unpunished. I hope the new attorney general makes this case a top priority. He needs to announce to the American people and the world that we uphold the rule of law and we intend to pursue this.”

---

I'm interested in what Mr. Price said. If American contractors are hired by the Federal Government to work overseas don't they fall under Federal law and regulation?

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not seeing the loophole here. Wouldn't they be accountable to the same rules of deadly force as say the FBI or ATF (whether or not that's a comfort is a separate question)?


Nope. They don't. To make it worse, one of the laws we pushed on the Iraqi Parliment was to grant all US contractors immunity from prosecution for crimes committed in Iraq. Effectively giving them free reign to what they want. A luxury that some have used to its utmost.

[Stanley Burrell]

I refuse to believe even this administration could have hired a seperate military organization and placed them outside the rule of law. There's no way.

If you believe that facets of our government have made a dime off of oil by ways of a Mideast war, which for some reason I believe you may, then I think you need to reassess your own interpretation of the economics of the hired mercenary ;)

[Warriorbird]

Could I be...too bored to start a discusion, Ganalon?

Nah, never that.

I'm pretty unexcited about politics right now. College football's more exciting...and I'm not that much of a football fan.

[Tsa`ah]

The pissing is getting old.

[TheEschaton]

I don't know that U.S. law applies on foreign soil, except as formalized in specific treaties where Embassies and military bases are treated as sovereign U.S. soil.

Technically, everything our soldiers do abroad are not governed by U.S. law, but by international treaty and law. Unfortunately, international law has failed to address the actions of private actors, mainly because judging that private actors can't kill people would be detrimental to international corporations.

Therefore, if the law is missing in the land where the supposed violation occured, you're off scott free.

-TheE-

[Gan]

Could I be...too bored to start a discusion, Ganalon?

Nah, never that.

And yet not too bored to post, which takes pretty much the same effort.

No, you'd rather sit back and point out perceived deficiencies instead of stepping up and offering an alternative. Or, more appropriately, too scared in fear of being called out on the same thing you like to call others out on.

That my friend, makes you a hypocrite. But thats ok, everyone gets a ticket to the show here on the PC. We now have confirmed where you like to sit. ;)

[Tsa`ah]

A US soldier is subject to military law no matter the location. It's just unfortunate that these aren't US soldiers, even more unfortunate that immunity was brokered for them under Iraqi law. Though I don't see that particular agreement standing for much longer ... if it is at all right now.

This isn't the first time Blackwater mercs have acted in this manner, there were a few suppressed cases that involved Iraqi officials and a current case of arms/equipment smuggling.

[Warriorbird]

Uh... hypocrites are people who say one thing but do another. There's no misrepresentation in that, Ganalon... there is misrepresentation in talking about fiscal conservatism and then cheering the Iraq War.

:)

Besides. You complain every time I post a link. Be more exciting and maybe I will.



No, you'd rather sit back and point out perceived deficiencies instead of stepping up and offering an alternative.

What alternatives are you offering exactly?

"I can...paste...a link...so incisive!"

We're pretty much doing the same thing. The easy tap tap of posting.

[Gan]

What alternatives are you offering exactly?

I'm not offering alternatives, but suggesting that you provide some instead of claiming that all I post are conservative stories, comments, or threads.

Put up some effort, put your money where your mouth is. Quit being a backseat driver.

Baby steps, maybe you can start a few threads in the Gemstone section first before you step up to the big table. ;)

[Jayvn]

I'm sure some of the shootings may have been unwarranted, however until you've spent enough time there on edge at any moment, waiting for some fuck to stick his hand in the window or pull a gun..then you should probably just stfu with political bullshit. Some randon ass guy was running towards us in kabul one day to which we yelled at him to stop, he kept running, we drew weapons and he hit the fucking ground, had he not, he would have hit the ground filled with rounds. People explode over there for no reason..remember.. My step dads unit had a medic get blown up because some fucker ran to him with a child, then the child exploded killing them both. You have the right to use lethal force if you feel your life is in danger. With enough adrenaline going you have no clue who's the threat vs who's the random civilian going grocery shopping with his mom. All that being said I wasn't at the events as they unfolded in this case so I have no judgement of who was right or who was wrong.

[Warriorbird]

Was isn't the same as law enforcement. Even so...I bet you guys usually use less ammo than gets thrown around in excessive force cases.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm sure some of the shootings may have been unwarranted, however until you've spent enough time there on edge at any moment, waiting for some fuck to stick his hand in the window or pull a gun..then you should probably just stfu with political bullshit. Some randon ass guy was running towards us in kabul one day to which we yelled at him to stop, he kept running, we drew weapons and he hit the fucking ground, had he not, he would have hit the ground filled with rounds. People explode over there for no reason..remember.. My step dads unit had a medic get blown up because some fucker ran to him with a child, then the child exploded killing them both. You have the right to use lethal force if you feel your life is in danger. With enough adrenaline going you have no clue who's the threat vs who's the random civilian going grocery shopping with his mom. All that being said I wasn't at the events as they unfolded in this case so I have no judgement of who was right or who was wrong.

You are the Armed Forces representing the United States' overseas venues.

And technically, conservatives should be fuming about this since the little guy is trying to put the big guy out of business. For shame.

[oldanforgotten]

We shouldn?t be there in the first place. The entire place is filled with nothing but danger, death, and oil. I?m reserving judgement about the issue as a whole, although I dislike that anyone has that kind of immunity over there. Killing civilians is never an objective, nor should it ever be contrived as an acceptable risk.

We?ve turned a terrorist state with no nukes that spent its energy terrorizing themselves into a terrorist state that is now targeting our citizens and troops. GG Bush.
________
Vaporizer Affiliate Program (http://vaporizeraffiliateprogram.com)

[Stanley Burrell]

We shouldn’t be there in the first place. The entire place is filled with nothing but danger, death, and oil. I’m reserving judgement about the issue as a whole, although I dislike that anyone has that kind of immunity over there. Killing civilians is never an objective, nor should it ever be contrived as an acceptable risk.

We’ve turned a terrorist state with no nukes that spent its energy terrorizing themselves into a terrorist state that is now targeting our citizens and troops. GG Bush.

Because National Guardsmen of the U.S. who are now mysteriously in Iraq should be admonished for not defecting due to their lack of word-for-word analysis into their job description position?

Our soldiers are following orders just like 99% of the rest of this planet's population does. They are doing their jobs. They are not the ones responsible for spitting on the flag and pissing on the constitution. Their actions, from Private to Four Star, are still governed by a separate group of individuals who are whoring them out from the get-go.

Do not, do not, do not, do not lash out the "babykillers" (not saying you did) as if this is a deliberate action of each and every commanded soldier. And that's not Nazi defense mechanism. That's a directly needed scrutiny to reeducate the American people on "who's to blame." If ever there was such a truthfully universal thing.

[Jayvn]

Not the soldiers fault that paranoia can set in, intentions misread. But I fail to see how that makes the situation acceptable.

The situation isn't acceptable, we shouldn't be playing fucking world police, paranoia was probably the word my first post was lacking. It was months before I could dismiss little bits of trash on the side of the road as trash and not potential IED's after I got back. I hate that all this gets media attention.

[Sean]

I'm sure some of the shootings may have been unwarranted, however until you've spent enough time there on edge at any moment, waiting for some fuck to stick his hand in the window or pull a gun..then you should probably just stfu with political bullshit. Some randon ass guy was running towards us in kabul one day to which we yelled at him to stop, he kept running, we drew weapons and he hit the fucking ground, had he not, he would have hit the ground filled with rounds. People explode over there for no reason..remember.. My step dads unit had a medic get blown up because some fucker ran to him with a child, then the child exploded killing them both. You have the right to use lethal force if you feel your life is in danger. With enough adrenaline going you have no clue who's the threat vs who's the random civilian going grocery shopping with his mom. All that being said I wasn't at the events as they unfolded in this case so I have no judgement of who was right or who was wrong.

Does this mentality apply just to Iraq or do I get to start blasting people if I get nervous walking through the seedy part of town? I mean it's me or them right?

[Gan]

KILL EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT EM OUT!

[Sean of the Thread]

Does this mentality apply just to Iraq or do I get to start blasting people if I get nervous walking through the seedy part of town? I mean it's me or them right?

Actually it does apply here.

Thank <diety>


I'm not even talking about PTSD of which several of my buddies are severely dealing with now. I first encountered it with my uncle who came back from nam and wore a helmet of some sort 24/7 until he died.

[Clove]

I first encountered it with my uncle who came back from nam and wore a helmet of some sort 24/7 until he died.

That was your uncle?

[Sean of the Thread]

That was your uncle?

Lol wasn't there one about every 25 square miles?