Isn't this a bit much? $9.11 for Rudy...

[chillmonster]

Giuliani Party Draws Criticism From Dodd
LIBBY QUAID September 25, 2007 05:23 PM EST AP

WASHINGTON — The International Association of Fire Fighters accused Republican Rudy Giuliani of exploiting the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks because a supporter is holding a $9.11-per-person fundraiser for the presidential candidate.

The union _ already a vocal critic of Giuliani's _ said Tuesday that the fundraiser's "$9.11 for Rudy" theme is an abuse of the image and symbols of the 2001 attacks.

"It is nothing short of disrespectful to the legacy of the thousands of civilians and 343 brave firefighters who died at ground zero," IAFF president Harold Schaitberger said.

The campaign of Democratic presidential candidate Chris Dodd called the theme "unconscionable, shameless and sickening." The firefighters' union has endorsed Dodd....

Is it just me?

[Xcalibur]

Surfing on the event. Half of what he's saying is related to that. Without 9/11, that guy would be a nobody.

[Methais]

Is it just me?

That cares? Yes.

[Sean of the Thread]

Surfing on the event. Half of what he's saying is related to that. Without 9/11, that guy would be a nobody.

Lol a nobody eh?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

9/11 definately helped to define him, but I wouldn't call him a nobody.

Looking at what he did during the event makes me think more highly of him. I don't know about you but I have vivid memories of watching him walk through the dust with the mask on.

Anyway, yeah, $9.11 seems kind of retarded, but I seriously doubt he had a hand in it. Someone wanted to raise money for his campaign.

[DeV]

He's a one trick pony. He claims he had no prior knowledge of the fundraiser theme and that it was not commissioned by his staff. He's still a one trick pony.

[Gan]

Speak into the lamp when you say that.

And LET ME GET OUT MY TIN FOIL HAT!

:lol:

[chillmonster]

He's a one trick pony. He claims he had no prior knowledge of the fundraiser theme and that it was not commissioned by his staff. He's still a one trick pony.

Rudy is a opportunist who has thoroughly exploited his two claims to fame for political gain. The first is his work as DA taking down corporate criminals, which is really only one case: the Drexell, Michael Milken/Ivan Boesky case. The second is 9/11.

During the first, Rudy was going after them simply because of political ambition and not for any desire for justice. If it wasn't cracked by a certain time, he was going to let it fall by the wayside so it didn't act as a political anchor, weighing him down with the business crowd in NYC. The Reagan SEC was initially either completely inept or unwilling to really go after them, so it took a long while and a lot of maneuvering to finally get it done. When the case was cracked (complete with the political theater of cops in vests with guns drawn storming office buildings to arrest brokers and arbitrageurs), Giuliani rode his tough DA persona to the mayor's office.

It's obvious that he's trying to do the same thing here. He wasn't half the Mayor Bloomberg is, and wasn't on the road to being reelected, and he knows it. So instead of arguing credentials, he tries his best to cram as many 'nine-eleven's' as possible into each speech. The logic: if you get people sufficiently scared, they'll abandon reason and fall in line. Worked for Dubs; why not for Rudy?

[chillmonster]

But, in fairness: the investigation was ballsy and well run. So I guess he's like Romney and not Fred Thompson: only a half-empty suit.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

He's a one trick pony. He claims he had no prior knowledge of the fundraiser theme and that it was not commissioned by his staff. He's still a one trick pony.

So you think sans 9/11, he has no platform?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Rudy is a opportunist who has thoroughly exploited his two claims to fame for political gain. The first is his work as DA taking down corporate criminals, which is really only one case: the Drexell, Michael Milken/Ivan Boesky case. The second is 9/11.

During the first, Rudy was going after them simply because of political ambition and not for any desire for justice. If it wasn't cracked by a certain time, he was going to let it fall by the wayside so it didn't act as a political anchor, weighing him down with the business crowd in NYC. The Reagan SEC was initially either completely inept or unwilling to really go after them, so it took a long while and a lot of maneuvering to finally get it done. When the case was cracked (complete with the political theater of cops in vests with guns drawn storming office buildings to arrest brokers and arbitrageurs), Giuliani rode his tough DA persona to the mayor's office.

It's obvious that he's trying to do the same thing here. He wasn't half the Mayor Bloomberg is, and wasn't on the road to being reelected, and he knows it. So instead of arguing credentials, he tries his best to cram as many 'nine-eleven's' as possible into each speech. The logic: if you get people sufficiently scared, they'll abandon reason and fall in line. Worked for Dubs; why not for Rudy?

So your argument is that because he did the right thing in two instances, he must be bad? By your own admittance he accomplished something Reagan could not. I've never heard of anyone say someone else could have done better in 9/11 than him, but maybe you have some subscription to "Conspiracy 9/11" that I don't.

All the rest is just supposition; 1) that'd he'd "let it fall by the wayside", 2) that he is trying to scare people.

Personally, I'd go with peoples track record, rather than supposition. So far he's proven to be a stand up guy. Maybe a little infidelity which I hate, but that doesn't impact his ability to do his job (nor did it impact Clinton).

I think someone already said it, but it bears repeating. Do you wear a tinfoil hat?

[chillmonster]

So your argument is that because he did the right thing in two instances, he must be bad? By your own admittance he accomplished something Reagan could not. I've never heard of anyone say someone else could have done better in 9/11 than him, but maybe you have some subscription to "Conspiracy 9/11" that I don't.

All the rest is just supposition; 1) that'd he'd "let it fall by the wayside", 2) that he is trying to scare people.

Personally, I'd go with peoples track record, rather than supposition. So far he's proven to be a stand up guy. Maybe a little infidelity which I hate, but that doesn't impact his ability to do his job (nor did it impact Clinton).

I think someone already said it, but it bears repeating. Do you wear a tinfoil hat?

LMAO. My point is he never excelled at GOVERNING and never argues issues. He glosses over most of his time as mayor and repeats 9/11, 9/11, 9/11; all while playing up partisanship and fear while running away from many things that were his core beliefs. He, like Romney (and Kerry for that matter) is as phony as a $3 bill.

[TheEschaton]

I'll agree, Rudy is something without 9/11.

He was the mayor that presided over the worst cases of police brutality in the history of NYC, and he not only condoned it, but initiated it.

He's sickening.

-TheE-

[Apathy]

Does chillmonster = Backlash?

[ElanthianSiren]

-The world will never know.

Kinda revolting, but I expect worse as November 08 approaches. Ahhh the detriments of living in a swing state.

[Warriorbird]

I'd mentioned it before.

Giuliani is the best chance the Republicans have of winning the presidency after they all collectively stabbed Fred in the back.

[Parkbandit]

Does chillmonster = Backlash?

While their ignorant rantings are very similar, I doubt it. Backlash didn't have the copyright on stupidity... so others tend to hop aboard that short bus and drive it for a while.

[Parkbandit]

I'd mentioned it before.

Giuliani is the best chance the Republicans have of winning the presidency after they all collectively stabbed Fred in the back.

I haven't seen Fred do anything to get stabbed in the back yet.

At least it's more entertaining than the hugs and kisses debate the Democrats are currently enjoying. It looks like everyone is applying to become Hillary's VP.

Christ.. she is scary. She can't even take a stand on a fucking baseball game without taking a poll first.

[Warriorbird]

Thompson's taken some nasty hits from conservative press...George Will in particular.

:dons tinfoil hat:

Backlash must have paid Parkbandit off to not believe that he's chillmonster.

[Parkbandit]

Thompson's taken some nasty hits from conservative press...George Will in particular.

:dons tinfoil hat:

Backlash must have paid Parkbandit off to not believe that he's chillmonster.

I don't see what Fred's done to even garner any attention from the other front runners. He got in late, he has no message except "OMG I R REAGAN!" and he's considered lazy.

Chillmonster is Backlash?? He's been here since Feb 2007. Backlash's tiny dick meltdown happened in August of '07. I just figured Chillmonster was just another in a long line of liberal idiots.

[TheEschaton]

Ah yes, the old rhetoric of "the Clinton's can't do anything without polling first", yet when they do make a decision without asking and gathering political will (like, to go into Serbia and Herzgovenia), the Republicans whine and bitch that they were left out of the process.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Ah yes, the old rhetoric of "the Clinton's can't do anything without polling first", yet when they do make a decision without asking and gathering political will (like, to go into Serbia and Herzgovenia), the Republicans whine and bitch that they were left out of the process.

-TheE-

Did you even watch the debate last night?

[TheEschaton]

No, I was researching Free Exercise claims of religious groups with the express belief in establishing a religious state, and how the Establishment clause deals with them.

[Parkbandit]

No, I was researching Free Exercise claims of religious groups with the express belief in establishing a religious state, and how the Establishment clause deals with them.


I'm sure there is a transcript around you can find... take a look at the questions posed to Hillary and her calculated, non-responses.

Then come back here and apologize for being stupid and ill-informed.

[DeV]

So you think sans 9/11, he has no platform?
I'm referring to his current platform.

[Gan]

I'm sure there is a transcript around you can find... take a look at the questions posed to Hillary and her calculated, non-responses.

Then come back here and apologize for being stupid and ill-informed.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Decision2008/story?id=3498294 - August 19 Debate. (Thx TheE for clarification).

I'll keep looking for last night's debate.

[TheEschaton]

That's from the August 19th debate.

[Landrion]

I'll agree, Rudy is something without 9/11.

He was the mayor that presided over the worst cases of police brutality in the history of NYC, and he not only condoned it, but initiated it.

He's sickening.

-TheE-

Interesting. I won't deny that Rudy's image benefited greatly from 9/11. However, I think you're failing to realize what this city was like coming off of Dinkins and how it changed under Giulliani. Sickening certainly described the crime rate that caused (among other things) the Bernie Goetz shooting- who in fact, will himself tell you that todays New York is not the same place as then. So much has the city changed that even Bernie himself no longer travels armed because "theres no need" (XM radio interview).

Further, I don't recall him ever condoning or exhorting brutality. In the Loiuma case (he called it an aberration - hardly an endorsement)

Nevertheless, please don't let me give the impression of a saintly Rudy either. Just do a google search on his name and you'll see tags of "fascist mayor" "thug" etc. I remember pre-9/11 how I saw him as hassling the street vendors and cabbies. No, he certainly wasn't flawless. But I think its a pretty crappy misrepresentation to lay the disgusting actions done to Louima at his feet.

[TheEschaton]

Despite your rather forgiving tone of the Loiuma incident, Diallo and Patrick Dorismond were also rather obvious cases of cops killing unarmed civilians.

[Gan]

Despite your rather forgiving tone of the Loiuma incident, Diallo and Patrick Dorismond were also rather obvious cases of cops killing unarmed civilians.

I'm curious as to how you attribute or blame Rudy for these events?

[Parkbandit]

I'm curious as to how you attribute or blame Rudy for these events?


By using the same logic as to blame Bush for all the current world's woes.

[Gan]

That was my guess too.

[Landrion]

Despite your rather forgiving tone of the Loiuma incident, Diallo and Patrick Dorismond were also rather obvious cases of cops killing unarmed civilians.

What I took issue with was your statement of "not only condoned, but initiated". What I can google on Giuliani on the Diallo case, quote wise, were neutral statements "I can understand the anger" "But there's a tendency of some people in our society to blame the police in broad strokes that is just as vicious a prejudice as any other prejudice." To me, thats a far cry even from condoning.

Conversely, he certainly did step in it with Dorismond, attempting to villify Dorismond cost Giuliani heavily in the public's eye. Is that condoning?

I'm not sure how I was forgiving of the Loiuma incident. The term I used was disgusting actions. What I said was that I think it was a crappy misrepresentation to say that Giuliani condoned or initiated it.

But again, let me clear. I am not looking to whitewash R.G. I fully acknowledge that the guy was widely seen pre-9/11 as a bastard/bully/fascist. I am as stunned as anyone else as to how 9/11 seems to have washed that away for him.

[TheEschaton]

Rudy initiated the police crackdown which led to these actions. He ran against Dinkins on crime, and promised a war on crime in the city.

-TheE-

[Gan]

Again, how can the above be directly attributed to Rudy?

[Landrion]

Rudy initiated the police crackdown which led to these actions. He ran against Dinkins on crime, and promised a war on crime in the city.

-TheE-

Perhaps you do not see a difference between initiating a crack down on crime and advocating sodomy, torture and shooting unarmed people, I certainly do. Perhaps you also do not see the reduction in crime that R.G. made happen over the ineffectual Dinkins as either true or a good thing, I certainly do on both counts.

[Parkbandit]

Rudy initiated the police crackdown which led to these actions. He ran against Dinkins on crime, and promised a war on crime in the city.

-TheE-

I guess a war on crime would be oppressing criminals of their civil liberties.

:cry:

[Keller]

re Rudy sucks at governing --> If anything, GWB has proven that you don't have to govern at all to be president. All you have to do is lead. Rudy, as much I fucking detest him, is a great leader. That's why his greatest political asset will always be 9-11.

[Hulkein]

I'll agree, Rudy is something without 9/11.

He was the mayor that presided over the worst cases of police brutality in the history of NYC, and he not only condoned it, but initiated it.

He's sickening.

-TheE-

He cleaned up the city pretty amazingly.

[chillmonster]

re Rudy sucks at governing --> If anything, GWB has proven that you don't have to govern at all to be president. All you have to do is lead. Rudy, as much I fucking detest him, is a great leader. That's why his greatest political asset will always be 9-11.

GWB has proven that a leader who can't govern will fail as president. If he wants to run as a GWB clone, he has no chance to be elected.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I remember now why I never posted in politics. I thought with Backlash gone it might actually be nice to debate.

But then I see Chillmonster has filled the vacuum, and I will go back to ignoring politic threads.

[Parkbandit]

I remember now why I never posted in politics. I thought with Backlash gone it might actually be nice to debate.

But then I see Chillmonster has filled the vacuum, and I will go back to ignoring politic threads.


LOL.. idiots like Backlash/Chillmonster are the only reason I even post on these forums anymore.

[chillmonster]

These two are obviously the same person.

How pathetic.

[RichardCranium]

These two are obviously the same person.

How pathetic.

SHM and PB? Obviously.

[TheEschaton]

Errr, and I can't understand how you don't see how giving free reign to the police is a causal link to the actions that happened. Police act within the bounds set for them, for the most part.

And another misconception: Crime actually was reduced under Dinkins. Some critics argue that the crime reduction was actually in fact started by Dinkins, and continued into Rudy's terms. All Rudy did was jail the homeless and give free reign to cops. Rudy's main criticism of Dinkins as a mayor was that he was administratively inefficient...which he said led to higher crime. The former might very well be true, but the latter was not.

-TheE-

[Gan]

Errr, and I can't understand how you don't see how giving free reign to the police is a causal link to the actions that happened. Police act within the bounds set for them, for the most part.

And another misconception: Crime actually was reduced under Dinkins. Some critics argue that the crime reduction was actually in fact started by Dinkins, and continued into Rudy's terms. All Rudy did was jail the homeless and give free reign to cops. Rudy's main criticism of Dinkins as a mayor was that he was administratively inefficient...which he said led to higher crime. The former might very well be true, but the latter was not.

-TheE-

Yes, because every city employee who acts under Rudy's leadership is a reflection of Rudy.

If a cop is racist, then Rudy must be racist!
If a cop is trigger happy, then Rudy must be trigger happy!
....

Amazing logic.

Rudy's still the clear choice for my vote.

[TheEschaton]

If you don't understand how having a mayor who is "understanding" of cop brutality enables the brutal cop to act, and if you don't understand that, conversely, a mayor who outright condemns police brutality and severely punishes those who commit it psychologically disables a brutal cop to act, then I can't help you.

-TheE-

[chillmonster]

Yes, because every city employee who acts under Rudy's leadership is a reflection of Rudy.

If a cop is racist, then Rudy must be racist!
If a cop is trigger happy, then Rudy must be trigger happy!
....

Amazing logic.

Rudy's still the clear choice for my vote.

I have never seen anything that would tell me that Rudy's anything special. Not only has been unspecatcular when it comes to governing, he's basically sold out his principles to win the nomination. I see him as a slightly more decisive John Kerry who plays on partisanship for personal gain. I also don't like that he's trying to scare people into voting for him.

That having been said, there are some real morons in the Republican party who will not vote for anyone speaks rationaly, understands nuance, and doesn't say 'Jesus' every other sentense, so he may have to play the role to win the nomination. Also the fact that he's smart and no coward isn't up for debate, so he's already in another class than the last republican nominee.

I just don't think he has any scruples.

[Gan]

If you don't understand how having a mayor who is "understanding" of cop brutality enables the brutal cop to act, and if you don't understand that, conversely, a mayor who outright condemns police brutality and severely punishes those who commit it psychologically disables a brutal cop to act, then I can't help you.

-TheE-

You're right. This is one issue where I refuse to put on the tin foil hat in order to agree with your conspiracy. That being said, your help (and tin foil) are not needed nor wanted.

[Gan]

I just don't think he has any scruples.

:rofl:

Name me a politician who does?

I think your expectations for a presidential candidate are completely unrealistic considering the field we have to choose from.

In the end, just make sure you vote. Otherwise you really dont have room to bitch.

[TheEschaton]

Ah yes, call names and say I'm crazy instead of addressing what I said. Standard GOP tactic. Let's try again:

Proposition: Rudy Guiliani, in not strongly condemning police brutality, and punishing it, thereby enabled cops who would normally be fearful of ramifications, to exert more force and exercise less judgment, thus resulting in numerous unjustifiable police killings.

Your Answer: ...


And.....go.

-TheE-

[Gan]

Ah yes, call names and say I'm crazy instead of addressing what I said. Standard GOP tactic. Let's try again:

Proposition: Rudy Guiliani, in not strongly condemning police brutality, and punishing it, thereby enabled cops who would normally be fearful of ramifications, to exert more force and exercise less judgment, thus resulting in numerous unjustifiable police killings.

Your Answer: ...


And.....go.

-TheE-

1. Didnt call you any names. You must have imagined them.

2. Still not buying the link. There's too many variables inbetween. Just admit that you dislike Rudy for personal reasons and leave it at that. Quit trying to create something that isnt there.

[TheEschaton]

The tin foil bit is an insult, and implies I'm crazy.

What variables are we talking about here? The administrative head of the city, and thus the police force, introduces a new "crack down on crime". He places this crack down in higher regard than the individual rights of civilians to not be shot and tortured. In some places he expresses sympathy for cops in situations where they brutalize a person. In some cases, he condones it.

This gives the message that its a-okay for cops to beat people, because the mayor's going to defend them. Guess what Gan? Nothing changed between Dinkins administration and Rudy's, except for the guy sitting in the mayor's office [edited to add: And the guy that that guy hired to be Police Commissioner]. What variables are there?

-TheE-

[Stanley Burrell]

The tin foil bit is an insult, and implies I'm crazy.

Or that you have sex with robots.

...Which is usually an insult, unless they're those hot female robots, which exist, I think. In Japan, apparently.

O.K. As far as the NYC Mayors go, I've had no real problems with Bloomberg, aside from his thinking it plausible to build a stadium in the middle of the West Side Highway. That and his not being able to pronounce "Joe Torre" at one point.

[Parkbandit]

Ah yes, call names and say I'm crazy instead of addressing what I said. Standard GOP tactic. Let's try again:

Proposition: Rudy Guiliani, in not strongly condemning police brutality, and punishing it, thereby enabled cops who would normally be fearful of ramifications, to exert more force and exercise less judgment, thus resulting in numerous unjustifiable police killings.

Your Answer: ...


And.....go.

-TheE-

LOL.. you are crying because he said 'tin foil hat' and consider that name calling?

Holy hell.. you are such a flaming douchebag. Maybe try sticking with the facts instead of making yourself out to be some sort of victim here. Ganalan is an amature when it comes to name calling.. I'm a pro, you fucking pansy ass.

WAAAA I CAN'T DEBATE BECAUSE YOU SAID TIN FOIL HAT! WAAA.

[Gan]

The tin foil bit is an insult, and implies I'm crazy.
No, as understood in many many other political threads here on the PC, it implies that you're chasing a conspiracy. Pull your head out of your ass. Oh, and quit pulling the typical liberall victim role and crying foul and wounded when you yourself are and have been guilty of name calling and other implications in the past.


What variables are we talking about here? The administrative head of the city, and thus the police force, introduces a new "crack down on crime". He places this crack down in higher regard than the individual rights of civilians to not be shot and tortured. In some places he expresses sympathy for cops in situations where they brutalize a person. In some cases, he condones it.
In each of the cases you mentioned earlier, please describe how Rudy's public statements after the fact demonstrated where he condoned the behavior of the cops who acted as they did. Furthermore, the variables I'm talking about are nothing more than a leader who, through many channels of chain of command, require the police (and other departments under his management) to do their job. This pressure on police leadership was in the form of increased accountability through statcom, where crime statistics were matched against performance of each borough's police stations. Rudy told them his expectations, and enforced the consequences when the commisioners/captains/leutenants/sergeants/officers did not perform to standards.


This gives the message that its a-okay for cops to beat people, because the mayor's going to defend them. Guess what Gan? Nothing changed between Dinkins administration and Rudy's, except for the guy sitting in the mayor's office [edited to add: And the guy that that guy hired to be Police Commissioner]. What variables are there?
As any trial lawyer would say, thats pure supposition and conjecture. You're grasping/reaching/fishing whatever you wish to call it in order to take part in the favorite American pasttime of blaming someone else for whats wrong.

Thanks anyway, and please take your liberal socialist imaginative bullshit elsewhere. Nobody's buying it here.

[TheEschaton]

Believe me, I lose no sleep, nor cry a tear, over what Ganalon calls me. Or what you call me.

I was merely pointing out that 1) a point was offered, 2) Gan only responded with a stupid insult, 3) Gan denied said insult, and offered a specious conclusion based on nothing rather than addressing point, 4) I pointed out the stupid insult, and then restated the point in retard-friendly format, and 5) you insult me instead of addressing the point...

Which leads me to conclude you are ridiculously retarded, moreso than the average barely literate George Bush. Makes sense, actually, only people dumber than the man who thinks "childrens" is a word could possibly follow him so blindly.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

Oh, Gan, Gan, Gan.

I don't deny that I call you names. I especially like retard, in reference to you and PB. I usually try and follow it with a point, which follows the rational rules of debate and proof. You just call names and think that somehow proves your point.

And again, you just put your fingers in your ears, and instead of disproving my point, blindly yell, "PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE IT!" Well, I guess I'll appease you this time:

In the case of Patrick Dorismond, Rudy released his criminal record, which included unsealing his juvenile record, and used his "extensive criminal record" as a reason why the police might have shot him.

In the case of Diallo: "And while the official response in the weeks after the Diallo shooting would be characterized most by Mr. Giuliani's ardent defense of the Police Department, his immediate reaction was far more restrained. ''We are very concerned about it,'' he said that Friday in February. ''We are very concerned obviously about the number of shots.'' " NYTimes, 9/1/99, and that's just the first one I stumbled across. He's concerned about the number of shots, but defended the shooting. Nice.

Oh, and in the Loiuma case, while Giuliani called it an "abberant case", the most telling quote was from the police officer indicted, who, while sodomizing Abner Loiuma, said that "This is Giuliani-time", implying he felt vindicated by Rudy's views to SODOMIZE SOMEONE WITH A PLUNGER.

-TheE-

[Gan]

Oh, Gan, Gan, Gan.

I don't deny that I call you names. I especially like retard, in reference to you and PB. I usually try and follow it with a point, which follows the rational rules of debate and proof. You just call names and think that somehow proves your point.

And again, you just put your fingers in your ears, and instead of disproving my point, blindly yell, "PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE IT!" Well, I guess I'll appease you this time:
Pot meet kettle.


In the case of Patrick Dorismond, Rudy released his criminal record, which included unsealing his juvenile record, and used his "extensive criminal record" as a reason why the police might have shot him.
Source please.


In the case of Diallo: "And while the official response in the weeks after the Diallo shooting would be characterized most by Mr. Giuliani's ardent defense of the Police Department, his immediate reaction was far more restrained. ''We are very concerned about it,'' he said that Friday in February. ''We are very concerned obviously about the number of shots.'' " NYTimes, 9/1/99, and that's just the first one I stumbled across. He's concerned about the number of shots, but defended the shooting. Nice.
Source please.


Oh, and in the Loiuma case, while Giuliani called it an "abberant case", the most telling quote was from the police officer indicted, who, while sodomizing Abner Loiuma, said that "This is Giuliani-time", implying he felt vindicated by Rudy's views to SODOMIZE SOMEONE WITH A PLUNGER.
1. Source please.
2. LOL at you using the actions and quotations (if true) to implicate Rudy as the officer was sodomizing someone with a plunger. ROFUCKINGL.

If you use this method of defending your 'points' in law school, is it any suprise that you get your ass handed to you every time you open your mouth?
:lol:
Thanks for the laugh this morning.

[CrystalTears]

And where did Rudy actually condone that? Just because the cops said "This is Guiliani-time" doesn't mean that Rudy agreed or allowed it to happen.

Let me get the article. Oh yeah... here.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/police.torture/


Mayor Rudolph Guiliani and New York City Police Commissioner Howard Safir (http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/police.torture/giuliani.safir.jpg), usually quick to defend the police, are reacting differently in this case.
"These allegations are shocking," Guiliani said. "The alleged conduct involved is reprehensible done by anyone at any time. Allegedly done by police officers, it's even more reprehensible."

[Gan]

And where did Rudy actually condone that? Just because the cops said "This is Guiliani-time" doesn't mean that Rudy agreed or allowed it to happen.

Let me get the article. Oh yeah... here.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/police.torture/

BUT ITS ALL RUDY'S FAULT!!!1111ONE

JUST LIKE ITS ALL BUSH'S FAULT!!!1111ONE

Talk about typical liberal drum banging. Its amazing that they catch any fish at all on their fishing expeditions with all that drum beating going on. Oh yea, it must be the deaf and blind fish they catch. Deaf and blind to whats actually happening in the real world.

:lol:

[TheEschaton]

Source: Google search on Giuliani + any of those names.

Did you even read this? The second one HAS THE SOURCE LISTED RIGHT AFTER IT.

The first one I read in the New York Times, "Giuliani Cites Criminal Past Of Slain Man" New York Times, 20 March 2000. In trying to find the article again, I came across this even better quote regarding Dorismond:

"In addition, his comments on a Fox News program were seen as insensitive and overly critical of Dorismond: "People do act in conformity very often with their prior behavior... (the media) would not want a picture presented of an altar boy, when in fact, maybe it isn't an altar boy, it's some other situation that may justify, more closely, what the police officer did." "

Ironically, Dorismond was not only an altar boy, but attended the same private Catholic high school Rudy went to.

Lastly, the Loiuma quote from the police officer is common knowledge, but I'm sure you can find it if you google search it.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

Wow.

Didn't I already say this? The VERY FACT that the cop said, "This is Giuliani-time!" shows that he felt justified and enabled by Giuliani's defense of cop brutality in the past into sodomizing Loiuma with a plunger.

[Gan]

Source: Google search on Giuliani + any of those names.

Did you even read this? The second one HAS THE SOURCE LISTED RIGHT AFTER IT.
Sure, let me make up some shit and put NYT at the end of the sentence so I can pass it off on a BBS as FOR REALZ. /sarcasm.



The first one I read in the New York Times, "Giuliani Cites Criminal Past Of Slain Man" New York Times, 20 March 2000. In trying to find the article again, I came across this even better quote regarding Dorismond:

"In addition, his comments on a Fox News program were seen as insensitive and overly critical of Dorismond: "People do act in conformity very often with their prior behavior... (the media) would not want a picture presented of an altar boy, when in fact, maybe it isn't an altar boy, it's some other situation that may justify, more closely, what the police officer did." "

Ironically, Dorismond was not only an altar boy, but attended the same private Catholic high school Rudy went to.

Lastly, the Loiuma quote from the police officer is common knowledge, but I'm sure you can find it if you google search it.

-TheE-

Its ok GOOGLE KING. If you dont want to cite your statements thats fine. ;)

[Gan]

Wow.

Didn't I already say this? The VERY FACT that the cop said, "This is Giuliani-time!" shows that he felt justified and enabled by Giuliani's defense of cop brutality in the past into sodomizing Loiuma with a plunger.

So if I went and sodomized a cat with a fork and said "ITS ALOK TIME!". Would that be any reflection of your views, leadership, and personal character?

[CrystalTears]

Wow.

Didn't I already say this? The VERY FACT that the cop said, "This is Giuliani-time!" shows that he felt justified and enabled by Giuliani's defense of cop brutality in the past into sodomizing Loiuma with a plunger.
No it doesn't.

[Parkbandit]

Believe me, I lose no sleep, nor cry a tear, over what Ganalon calls me. Or what you call me.

I was merely pointing out that 1) a point was offered, 2) Gan only responded with a stupid insult, 3) Gan denied said insult, and offered a specious conclusion based on nothing rather than addressing point, 4) I pointed out the stupid insult, and then restated the point in retard-friendly format, and 5) you insult me instead of addressing the point...

Which leads me to conclude you are ridiculously retarded, moreso than the average barely literate George Bush. Makes sense, actually, only people dumber than the man who thinks "childrens" is a word could possibly follow him so blindly.

-TheE-

Typical Liberal. When called out on the floor to explain yourself, you claim you are the victim and call foul. It's ok if you use an insult.. ala "Which leads me to conclude you are ridiculously retarded, moreso than the average barely literate George Bush. Makes sense, actually, only people dumber than the man who thinks "childrens" is a word could possibly follow him so blindly." but when someone says the phrase "tinfoil hat" HOLY HELL! STOP INSULTING ME AND STICK WITH THE FACTS!!!! WAAA!@!!!

You are fucking getting to be as pathetic as Backlash/Chillmonster.

[Parkbandit]

So if I went and sodomized a cat with a fork and said "ITS ALOK TIME!". Would that be any reflection of your views, leadership, and personal character?


In this particular case, I believe it would.

[CrystalTears]

Find me a politician that doesn't have skeletons in his closet and/or hasn't done some shady shit to accomplish their goals, and I'll sell you the London Bridge.

[TheEschaton]

Yes, yes it does, CT.

And Gan, I'm not your administrative boss. If I was your boss, and had condoned others sexual harrassment of female co-workers in the past by saying, "Well, he's a guy, and guy's should have the benefit of the doubt when women say they're harassing them...", and then you went out and raped a co-worker while screaming, "This is Alok-time!" then yes, I would be at fault.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

You'll have to find me a case where sodomizing someone was condoned by Giulliani for me to agree with your sentiment. And I want a source, not your text in bold saying BECAUSE I SAID SO! I'm kinda tired of doing the research for you lately. It's getting old.

[TheEschaton]

Condoning the environment within which such an act can arise, when you are in direct control of the environment, is condoning the act. That seems rather obvious to me.

[Parkbandit]

And Alok wants to be a lawyer someday... I laugh at his stupid argument here and pity anyone who had to rely on him to argue their case.

[Tsa`ah]

How fucking hard is it to take a quoted quote and put the first few words of it into google.

You would have a leg to stand on if he were being vague ... in this case you're being lazy.

[Warriorbird]

Sadly that sort of thing gets YOU contempt of court, Parkbandit.

[CrystalTears]

Condoning the environment within which such an act can arise, when you are in direct control of the environment, is condoning the act. That seems rather obvious to me.
Awesome, thanks for the quote and the situation. You're going to make an awesome ADA with all your evidence.

[CrystalTears]

How fucking hard is it to take a quoted quote and put the first few words of it into google.

You would have a leg to stand on if he were being vague ... in this case you're being lazy.
Fuck right because I already did it once, and like I said, I'm fucking sick of him coming in here with his accusations and nothing to back his shit up. So fuck it, the ball's in his court and it's deflating.

[Tsa`ah]

Awesome, thanks for the quote and the situation. You're going to make an awesome ADA with all your evidence.

Ever been in a position where you can dictate policy?

[Parkbandit]

Sad part is.. Alok knows he took a step on a slippery slope and instead of stopping and getting back to a sure footing, he decided to do a belly flop and slide right on down.

[Warriorbird]

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

[Parkbandit]

Ever been in a position where you can dictate policy?

Yes I have.. but unfortunately for your argument, there isn't any policy of Giuliani's where it's written that it's ok to sodomize a guy with a plunger if you are a cop. Just because you are tough on crime doesn't mean you automatically give police officers carte blanche to do what they want.

[Parkbandit]

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Thanks for your insightful input once again. Really, where would this thread or forum be without your keen opinion of nothing?

Great job!!

[Tsa`ah]

Yes I have.. but unfortunately for your argument, there isn't any policy of Giuliani's where it's written that it's ok to sodomize a guy with a plunger if you are a cop. Just because you are tough on crime doesn't mean you automatically give police officers carte blanche to do what they want.

No there's not, but when your policy and support of "force" leads to it and you fail to keep it within a reasonable check ... you are culpable.

While those of us not in NY at during that period were not quite in tune or really didn't care, I suggest you pick up some headlines and look at what's happening in Chicago right now.

I'm willing to bet if that piece of shit Daley were running for the Democratic nomination, most of you conservative fruits would be all over it.

[CrystalTears]

Only if he weren't cleaning up Chicago...

[TheEschaton]

Funny, I know the standard of proof better than you do in many crimes, PB and CT.

And, as the law stands, if a husband, for examples, creates an atmosphere of terror, he is responsible for his wife's violence against himself under a battered woman syndrome defense.

Likewise, conspiracy law is a very broad area, which says that if you set the pins up, and give someone the bowling ball, you're jointly responsible for the guy who bowls the strike.

Am I saying Rudy is guilty of conspiracy to commit brutality? Nope. But the point is, responsibility isn't solely on the person doing the act, but also on the ones who enable that person to commit that act. That might be a difference between conservative vs. liberal thought, but I'm pretty sure most psychologists, and sociologists, would agree with me. No man is an island, yadda yadda yadda.

Furthermore, I'm not saying Rudy supported the specific act of sodomizing someone with a plunger. I'm saying he supported, and fostered, the environment in which some cop thought it was okay to do so. I guarantee you that under Dinkins (and under Bloomberg, even), that same cop, with the same biases, and prejudices, wouldn't feel like he had the freedom to do what he did. Rudy has a looooooooooong history of defending cops in all their actions against civilians.

-TheE-

[DeV]

Only if he weren't cleaning up Chicago...
This line of thought is naive as hell.

[CrystalTears]

If you think I was being serious, your comment is naive too.

[DeV]

Then I'm glad to know you don't seriously believe that garbage.

[chillmonster]

:rofl:

Name me a politician who does?

I think your expectations for a presidential candidate are completely unrealistic considering the field we have to choose from.

In the end, just make sure you vote. Otherwise you really dont have room to bitch.

Here is where we differ. Yes, all politicians are political opportunists. Where I think Rudy goes too far is his exploiting fear to get elected. Also, some of his comments make me think he'll continue the very underhanded election tactics we've seen from the current administration.

[CrystalTears]

Then I'm glad to know you don't seriously believe that garbage.
C'mon, I know we've been arguing a lot lately, but give me some credit. :tongue:

[DeV]

C'mon, I know we've been arguing a lot lately, but give me some credit. :tongue:

Heh, my bad, it must be all the built up tension. :smug:

+50 dkp

[Parkbandit]

Funny, I know the standard of proof better than you do in many crimes, PB and CT.

And, as the law stands, if a husband, for examples, creates an atmosphere of terror, he is responsible for his wife's violence against himself under a battered woman syndrome defense.

Likewise, conspiracy law is a very broad area, which says that if you set the pins up, and give someone the bowling ball, you're jointly responsible for the guy who bowls the strike.

Am I saying Rudy is guilty of conspiracy to commit brutality? Nope. But the point is, responsibility isn't solely on the person doing the act, but also on the ones who enable that person to commit that act. That might be a difference between conservative vs. liberal thought, but I'm pretty sure most psychologists, and sociologists, would agree with me. No man is an island, yadda yadda yadda.

Furthermore, I'm not saying Rudy supported the specific act of sodomizing someone with a plunger. I'm saying he supported, and fostered, the environment in which some cop thought it was okay to do so. I guarantee you that under Dinkins (and under Bloomberg, even), that same cop, with the same biases, and prejudices, wouldn't feel like he had the freedom to do what he did. Rudy has a looooooooooong history of defending cops in all their actions against civilians.

-TheE-

You are going to make a fine liberal lawyer someday... bringing about litigation whenever a Republican is seeking office on groundless accusations. You remind me of the guy suing the dry cleaner for 54 million...

Saying Giuliani is somehow guilty because a rogue cop decided to fuck a guy in the ass with a plunger is laughable.. and for you to make that connection shows me you DO have what it takes to be just another scumbag lawyer looking for an ambulance to chase. Do us a favor though.. wear this shirt so we know who to plow into.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/main-ambulance.jpg

[TheEschaton]

liberal lawyer? I don't think you realize that the law is a subtle area where responsibility and liability does not end with oneself.

In fact, this country is founded on liberal political thought in that the idea of the social contract Rousseau suggested pretty much said we are responsible to each other.

[CrystalTears]

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3316/tfr612ix4.gif http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif

[Keller]

Alok vs. the three stooges. ROFL!

[RichardCranium]

Alok vs. the three stooges. ROFL!

Lame.

[Keller]

Lame.


:tool:

[Parkbandit]

Alok vs. the three stooges. ROFL!


Yea.. when you get your ass kicked by 3 stooges.. time to re-evaluate your career choices.

[Keller]

Yea.. when you get your ass kicked by 3 stooges.. time to re-evaluate your career choices.


When you do more than call names, I'll reconsider your "ass-kicking" assertion.

[875000]

>>Oh, and in the Loiuma case, while Giuliani called it an "abberant case", the most telling quote was from the police officer indicted, who, while sodomizing Abner Loiuma, said that "This is Giuliani-time", implying he felt vindicated by Rudy's views to SODOMIZE SOMEONE WITH A PLUNGER.<<

Oh man, I did not expect to see this BS again.

The quote you are citing is completed false, and was eventually retracted.

I spent about 2 minutes looking this up, which is probably 2 minutes more than I should have spent trying to respond to this, to find the orgins of the quote. To wit:

"In the midst of an election campaign for Mayor of New York, the principle characters are scrambling to stay one step ahead of the growing 70th Precinct scandal. The New York Post reveals that Mayor Giuliani and his police Commissioner Howard Safir have met privately with Abner Louima, as has the Reverend Al Sharpton. The Reverend Sharpton would later be accused by a Post reporter of having concocted Louima’s explosive claim that the cops who allegedly beat him in the patrol car stated: "It’s not Dinkins time, anymore; it’s Giuliani Time!"

This statement would polarize a city already in shock over the savage attack that Louima claimed he had been subjected to. Such were the tensions in the various communities in those first hot, Summer days of the scandal that many feared that riots would result. The "Giuliani Time" claim was just the sort of ‘sound-bite’ certain community activists were looking for to step up their attacks on a Mayor whose Police Department had, in a few short years, changed New York City from one of America’s most dangerous cities into the safest large city in the U. S."

http://www.americanmafia.com/Feature_Articles_11.html

And, before you even try to attack the weblink, keep in mind that A) It is quoting a story from the New York Post and B) there are plenty of other places that you can find through Google that cooberates it.

So great, you are using the Reverand Al Sharpton as a source on police brutality and racism in New York. Do I even need to spend 2 minutes more trying to explain how assinine that is?

[Parkbandit]

When you do more than call names, I'll reconsider your "ass-kicking" assertion.


Typical liberal.. I've read through ALL of your posts here.. and the only contribution you've had so far is calling some people the 3 stooges and calling someone a tool.

Way to step up to the plate and get the Hypocrite of the Day award.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/Kerryflag.jpg

[Keller]

Typical liberal.. I've read through ALL of your posts here.. and the only contribution you've had so far is calling some people the 3 stooges and calling someone a tool.

Way to step up to the plate and get the Hypocrite of the Day award.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/Kerryflag.jpg

Awww, he called more names!

Regardless of whether I've made a contribution, I'm not pretending to argue here. I'm just calling it like it is.

[Gan]

Louima was one of two men who police said interfered with officers trying to break up a fight between two women outside a nightclub called Club Rendez-vous. Both were arrested on charges of assault, resisting arrest, disorderly conduct and obstructing justice.

Louima's lawyer says his client was assaulted by police and then arrested. The police say Louima threw a punch at an officer first.

According to Louima's story though, police yelled racial epithets, put Louima in a patrol car and beat him several times before taking him to the 70th Precinct station house.

It was there that Louima says the officers pulled down his pants and led him to the bathroom, where they allegedly sodomized him with the plunger and then jammed the handle in his mouth.

Louima's attorney, Brian Figeroux, says the alleged abuse should not have occurred considering the number of officers in the station house at the time.

"There were four police officers beating, and there were two officers in the bathroom, and many police officers at the precinct seeing what was going on. Someone should have known and stopped this from happening," he said.

Mayor Rudolph Guiliani and New York City Police Commissioner Howard Safir (http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/police.torture/giuliani.safir.jpg), usually quick to defend the police, are reacting differently in this case.

"These allegations are shocking," Guiliani said. "The alleged conduct involved is reprehensible done by anyone at any time. Allegedly done by police officers, it's even more reprehensible."
Safir agreed.

"This police commissioner and this mayor, I know, will tolerate no racism, no abuse, no undo force or unprofessionalism by any police officer and we're not going to tolerate it in this case," he said.

Family members said Louima, a security guard who moved to New York from Haiti six years ago, had no bruises or injuries at the time of his arrest.

The Rev. Al Sharpton, who is running for mayor, stood beside Louima's family offering up his opinion, part of a city-wide outcry, about the incident.

"The climate in this city has added to police feeling they could get away from such perverted acts. They need to be arrested. There is no reason, none, that you can justify torturing a human being in a civilized society," Sharpton said.

For his part Louima, says he used to like cops. That is, until this happened.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/police.torture/

:lol:



Louima also initially claimed that the officers involved in the attack called him a "nigger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger)" and shouted, "This is Giuliani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani)-time" during the beating.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Louima#_note-2) Louima later recanted this claim, and the reversal was used by defense lawyers to cast doubt on the entirety of his testimony.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Louima#_note-louimatoday)
Stellar research (Google even, as touted earlier in this thread) by TheE.
:clap:

You're going to make a fine public defender one day. Thats about it.

[Props to 87500 for bringing this part up]