Iraq War Protester can't find soldier, so he kills a civillian

[Gan]

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - A U.S. citizen (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D%22U.S.+citizen%22%26sid%3Dbreitbart.com&eid=csl&tid=af0f3d8dd&site=breitbart.com) has confessed to using an axe to kill a Dutch student after failing to find a soldier to attack, his lawyer said Tuesday.

The suspect, Carlos Hartmann (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D%22hartmann%22%26sid%3Dbreitbart.com&eid=csl&tid=c83706969&site=breitbart.com), 41, of Tecumseh, Mich., has confessed to the Sept. 8 killing on a train platform in the southern city of Roosendaal, defence lawyer Peter Gremmen said.

Gremmen said Hartmann wanted to punish the Netherlands for its support of the war in Iraq.

Hartmann appeared before a judge Tuesday and was ordered held for another two weeks for investigation.

"He hates soldiers, and says that the army kills people, so it would be legitimate if he were also to kill someone . . . from the American military (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D%22American+military%22%26sid%3Dbreitbart. com&eid=csl&tid=9b41f6c44&site=breitbart.com) - or from its NATO allies," Gremmen said in a telephone interview.

When he failed to find a soldier at the Roosendaal train station, "he got such a crazy, disturbed idea that he killed a civilian," Gremmen said.

Hartmann did not attempt to escape and was arrested shortly after the killing.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp_fc6h5g7n673&show_article=1

__________________________________________________ _
Way to represent... freakshow. :clap:

Sympathies to the student's parents. :(

[TheSmooth1]

Punish a whole country by killing someone. Fucking great plan.

[TheEschaton]

Maybe I should post a story about a soldier going berserk and killing a civilian for his beliefs, and then use it to implicitly condemn all soldiers. ;)

-TheE-

[Gan]

Maybe I should post a story about a soldier going berserk and killing a civilian for his beliefs, and then use it to implicitly condemn all soldiers. ;)

-TheE-

Put your money where your mouth is. Post it biatch.

[Jolena]

Put your money where your mouth is. Post it biatch.


I love it when Gan gets all gangsta.

[sst]

I have not heard of any stories about Soldiers killing protestes... We did almost drive over a few on our way to the docks to load up our strykers though... But the wonderful Tacoma PD came in and cleared house <3 them using beatsticks...

[Shifted]

I've been trying to figure this out for a while now. Why try to kill a soldier, or even harass them because his/her country is in a war you don't approve of? I've seen it way too many times where people 'hate' the military. True, we volunteered, but if that makes us evil, then maybe he would like to live in a country with no military at all. All of you military haters are dumb bastards. Go get invaded by france.

[Warriorbird]

:shrugs:

There's a difference between disagreeing with current military actions and hating the military. I'm no fan of the Iraq War but tomorrow I'm attending a talk about the JAG program.

Alok's point was more one of simple logic. One person certainly does not make a group one specific way. Any answer he made to Ganalon would've just been an excuse for Ganalon to be all, "You hate America!"

[Shifted]

I'm not saying that one person does speak for the group. I was referring to individual people that I have met along the way that simply hate the military.

As for hating america, I've met a LOT.

[Warriorbird]

Me too. I tend to find it pretty unfortunate. I haven't seen the Middle East, but there's other places that definitely make one appreciate the good old US of A. My time in Romania was an eye opener for instance.

[TheEschaton]

For some people, the idea of a military is morally abhorent. Those people tend to be all forms of murder, state sanctioned or not. Therefore, they question why anyone would voluntarily join such an organization.

These people tend to believe the ends don't justify the means. Ever.

[Tea & Strumpets]

For some people, the idea of a military is morally abhorent. Those people tend to be all forms of murder, state sanctioned or not. Therefore, they question why anyone would voluntarily join such an organization.


Those people are also known as brainless imbeciles, imo. Some people prefer to ignore reality and live in fantasyland.

And if I may borrow your line form earlier, I could easily post a story here about someone from the Peace Corps raping a cow, and then use it to implicitly condemn all members of the Peace Corps*.






* If asked to produce said article I will change the subject.

[TheEschaton]

I didn't change the subject, I just said it's idiotic to post a story of an obviously mentally ill person and use it to implicitly attack all people who believe the same thing.

And Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and all the greatest men and women of the 20th century believed what I just said. Maybe they were all brainless imbeciles. I like to think it's not ignoring reality, but not accepting it as the final destination of humankind.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

For some people, the idea of a military is morally abhorent. Those people tend to be all forms of murder, state sanctioned or not. Therefore, they question why anyone would voluntarily join such an organization.

These people tend to believe the ends don't justify the means. Ever.

Those people also tend to be fucking retards with no firm footing in reality.

Wow.. you and I just described you to a T.

[TheEschaton]

Ah yes, because I tend to be an idealist and don't happen to think our present situation is the best we can do, I'm a fucking retard.

You sir, are the retard

[Parkbandit]

I didn't change the subject, I just said it's idiotic to post a story of an obviously mentally ill person and use it to implicitly attack all people who believe the same thing.

And Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and all the greatest men and women of the 20th century believed what I just said. Maybe they were all brainless imbeciles. I like to think it's not ignoring reality, but not accepting it as the final destination of humankind.

-TheE-

Who the fuck used it to imply anything except you?

Dude.. you need to go back to your fantasy world.. It's a great concept that any sane person would embrace.. but it's simply not reality.

[Parkbandit]

Ah yes, because I tend to be an idealist and don't happen to think our present situation is the best we can do, I'm a fucking retard.

You sir, are the retard

You are a daydreaming hippie. retard was perhaps a bit harsh. You simply have no real basis for any political argument here... just a fantasy.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I didn't change the subject, I just said it's idiotic to post a story of an obviously mentally ill person and use it to implicitly attack all people who believe the same thing.

And Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and all the greatest men and women of the 20th century believed what I just said. Maybe they were all brainless imbeciles. I like to think it's not ignoring reality, but not accepting it as the final destination of humankind.

-TheE-

You bring up Ghandi everytime this subject comes up. The solution to every problem is not pacifism, regardless of how much you'd like that to be the case.

MLK was against violence in the civil rights movement. I'm unaware of him being anti-war for any reason, which seems to be the baloney you're selling.

[TheEschaton]

You continually spout the fact that it isn't reality - when I never said any of my ideas aren't about reality, but rather about a goal to strive for.

There's a story in the Brothers Karamazov, about an athiest who dies. As he's floating in the cosmos, God comes to him and says, "Because you didn't believe in me, you have to walk a billion billion miles to get into heaven." Because the journey is so long, for aeons and aeons the athiest refuses to walk anywhere.

That's the attitude you strike me as having.

The end of the story is a good one though: finally, the athiest decides to walk towards heaven. He walks a billion billion miles, over the course of aeons, and then finally reaches the gate. God comes to him and says something to the effect of - my son, your faith in the destination of the journey has brought you here, through the endless reaches of space and time. Be welcome. The athiest walks in, and in the first second, cries out in ecstasy, "I would have walked a trillion trillions, just for this one second!" And everyone lives happily ever after.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

And MLK was very much against Vietnam, of course, if you studied him at any length you would of realized this.

He also called for us to be "extremists for love."

And the whole point of pacifism is that it IS the solution for every problem.

[Haywood J.]

And MLK was very much against Vietnam, of course, if you studied him at any length you would of realized this.

He also called for us to be "extremists for love."

And the whole point of pacifism is that it IS the solution for every problem.


Your ability to condem the military would quickly become nil if we had no military, as you'd live in a newly annexed country where that opinion would probably get you killed/jailed.

We live in an awesome country!

[Tea & Strumpets]

Your ability to condem the military would quickly become nil if we had no military, as you'd live in a newly annexed country where that opinion would probably get you killed/jailed.

We live in an awesome country!

He's not talking about our military. He's talking about the military one million years in the future once everyone has agreed to being a pacifist.

Little to known fact: If someone threatens you with violence and you tell them you are a pacifist, they will be overcome with respect for your attitude and convert to your beliefs.

[Atlanteax]

And MLK was very much against Vietnam, of course, if you studied him at any length you would of realized this.

He also called for us to be "extremists for love."

And the whole point of pacifism is that it IS the solution for every problem.

"Please Sir, I beg you... I am a non-violent man... I would truly and deeply appreciate it if you would stop raping my wife. Have I offended you in some way? If I have, I apologize profusely. But please Sir, get off my wife."

Wow... effective solution.

[Celephais]

I love it when Gan gets all gangsta.
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/GuinnessKMF/gangsta.jpg
(obviously a request for this)

[Goretawn]

He's not talking about our military. He's talking about the military one million years in the future once everyone has agreed to being a pacifist.

Little to known fact: If someone threatens you with violence and you tell them you are a pacifist, they will be overcome with respect for your attitude and convert to your beliefs.
:clap: :rofl:

[Latrinsorm]

Mmm, status quo.

[CrystalTears]

Maybe I should post a story about a soldier going berserk and killing a civilian for his beliefs, and then use it to implicitly condemn all soldiers. ;)

-TheE-
Way to jump to conclusions. The story was about an American nutjob killing a Dutch. As a Cuban I can understand his hatred for the Dutch, but he's not representing any group other than America and he did it badly.

[Clove]

For some people, the idea of a military is morally abhorent. Those people tend to be all forms of murder, state sanctioned or not. Therefore, they question why anyone would voluntarily join such an organization.

These people tend to believe the ends don't justify the means. Ever.

That's funny because I find that's how many people feel about the law profession (morally abhorent and murder [of justice]) and they question anyone who would voluntarily become a lawyer.

[Clove]

I've been trying to figure this out for a while now. Why try to kill a soldier, or even harass them because his/her country is in a war you don't approve of?...

Particularly when said soldier is almost certainly better trained, better armed and in better control of his mind....

[Parkbandit]

You continually spout the fact that it isn't reality - when I never said any of my ideas aren't about reality, but rather about a goal to strive for.


I guess there is our miscommunication there.. I'm talking about reality.. and you are once again talking about fantasy land.

Since your fantasy land is in your head and in your imagination.. perhaps it would be fair to the readers if we simply stick with reality?

[Gan]

I love it when Gan gets all gangsta.
hahaha. Cel threw up my graphic, so I'll just refer you to 'Gangsta'.


Alok's point was more one of simple logic. One person certainly does not make a group one specific way. Any answer he made to Ganalon would've just been an excuse for Ganalon to be all, "You hate America!"
Clearly you assume too much. I merely told him to back his assertions. WHICH HE HAS YET TO DO.

But thanks for playing anyway WB. Better luck next time. :)

[Parkbandit]

Your ability to condem the military would quickly become nil if we had no military, as you'd live in a newly annexed country where that opinion would probably get you killed/jailed.

We live in an awesome country!

Not sure where you came up with this post.. but then again, your drug induced bullshit doesn't really surprise me anymore. But, I will say that if I lived in a country that I was so opposed to, I would do anything I could to move out. There is literally NOTHING keeping you here. You should try another country more to your liking.

[Haywood J.]

You totally misinterpreted my post. I actually like our military and the ability for people like TheE to oppose it. No sarcasm implied.

[Celephais]

hahaha. Cel threw up my graphic, so I'll just refer you to 'Gangsta'.

Don't make me cut you. http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=612782#post612782

[Gan]

Don't make me cut you.

CT has my back. She's good in a knife fight.

(PS. You get credit for the assist.)

[CrystalTears]

That's right, bitches. Pick one! I'll cut you!
http://americansongbook.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/swiss_army_knife.jpg

[Celephais]

That's right, bitches. Pick one! I'll cut you!
http://americansongbook.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/swiss_army_knife.jpg
Careful CT... you'll pop the raft.

[Clove]

You totally misinterpreted my post. I actually like our military and the ability for people like TheE to oppose it. No sarcasm implied.

USMC vs. The E. Yeah I'd drop a few on PPV for that.

[Clove]

Careful CT... you'll pop the raft.

Hold on, we have to translate it for her. No corta la bota!

[CrystalTears]

Careful CT... you'll pop the raft.
It's a fucking Lego man. No popping!


Hold on, we have to translate it for her. No corta la bota!
I'll cut you too, bitch.

[Gan]

ROFL

This thread has now gone 5 stars.

PS. Thats a sissy knife.

Here you go.

http://www.forensic-applications.com/meth/knives.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

The real man's choice of sharp object:

http://thecia.com.au/reviews/k/images/krull-9.jpg

Oh yes.

[Warriorbird]

For some people, the idea of a military is morally abhorent. Those people tend to be all forms of murder, state sanctioned or not. Therefore, they question why anyone would voluntarily join such an organization.

These people tend to believe the ends don't justify the means. Ever.
-TheE

I'm just all about the culture of death. I believe in the death penalty, choice, assisted suicide, and the military. I just don't particularly like the way the military is currently being aimed.

[sst]

We aim pretty well, I watched one of our Bco snipers take out a guy at 1400 meters who was planting an IED with the Barret.

That for you guys who dont know is a damn good shot.

(yea I know you didnt mean it that way WB but i just felt like sharing)

I really wish we could have gotten a video of that, it was too far away though... It was one of the biggest HOLY SHIT DID THAT JUST HAPPEN moments ive had in my time here.

[Clove]

We aim pretty well, I watched one of our Bco snipers take out a guy at 1400 meters who was planting an IED with the Barret.


Wow. Football field shy of a mile. I'd stay on that sniper's good side.

[Gan]

Talk about reach out and touch someone...

[TheEschaton]

Ah, just far enough that you don't have to care about his death.

[Clove]

Ah, just far enough that you don't have to care about his death.

No moreso than he cared about the deaths that were intended by his IED.

[TheEschaton]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Clove]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Don't be a vagina, he was setting an explosive device to kill or maim several people. So he got dropped. In a war zone no-less so he must have been fully aware that his actions could be arrested with deadly force.

[Sean of the Thread]

ffs I try to keep an open mind on your posts E but they've just been oozing retard lately.

[Clove]

ffs I try to keep an open mind on your posts E but they've just been oozing retard lately.

And coming from Tampa that HAS to hurt. :club:

[Sean of the Thread]

That made no sense.

[CrystalTears]

It must be that time of the month for the TheE. Maybe he needs a Midol and a Reeses too.

[Parkbandit]

Don't be a vagina, he was setting an explosive device to kill or maim several people. So he got dropped. In a war zone no-less so he must have been fully aware that his actions could be arrested with deadly force.


TheE believes that instead of shooting these individuals, perhaps some hugs would work. I nominate TheE to go over to Iraq and start hugging terrorists. Peace has to start somewhere... I think he's the right guy for the job.

[Methais]

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - A U.S. citizen (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D%22U.S.+citizen%22%26sid%3Dbreitbart.com&eid=csl&tid=af0f3d8dd&site=breitbart.com) has confessed to using an axe to kill a Dutch student after failing to find a soldier to attack, his lawyer said Tuesday.

The suspect, Carlos Hartmann (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D%22hartmann%22%26sid%3Dbreitbart.com&eid=csl&tid=c83706969&site=breitbart.com), 41, of Tecumseh, Mich., has confessed to the Sept. 8 killing on a train platform in the southern city of Roosendaal, defence lawyer Peter Gremmen said.

Gremmen said Hartmann wanted to punish the Netherlands for its support of the war in Iraq.

Hartmann appeared before a judge Tuesday and was ordered held for another two weeks for investigation.

"He hates soldiers, and says that the army kills people, so it would be legitimate if he were also to kill someone . . . from the American military (http://get.lingospot.com/f?url=http%3A//search.breitbart.com/q%3Fs%3D%22American+military%22%26sid%3Dbreitbart. com&eid=csl&tid=9b41f6c44&site=breitbart.com) - or from its NATO allies," Gremmen said in a telephone interview.

When he failed to find a soldier at the Roosendaal train station, "he got such a crazy, disturbed idea that he killed a civilian," Gremmen said.

Hartmann did not attempt to escape and was arrested shortly after the killing.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp_fc6h5g7n673&show_article=1

__________________________________________________ _
Way to represent... freakshow. :clap:

Sympathies to the student's parents. :(

By that logic, shoudln't the guy have just killed himself because he also lives in a country that supports the war?

[Drunken Durfin]

>confessed to using an axe to kill a Dutch student

Axe murders don't scare me. Weed wacker murders on the other hand...

[sst]

Ah, just far enough that you don't have to care about his death.

Why would I care about his death? He was planting and IED on our exfil route that would have gone off when an American was driving by it, an American who is trying to stop the violence in the country and keep all the innocent civilians safe. So, the only feelings I had at the time, and still have to this day is a feeling of satisfaction. That feeling of satisfaction applies for every combatant that I have seen dead or killed, and I have seen a lot. The people I feel bad for are the innocent ones who were caught by their or our bullets, however it has been far more theirs than ours, we aim when we shoot...

Be a pacifist, that’s fine, but don’t fea,r as George Orwell put it "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

So you can go and live in your Idealist world where being nice makes people not want to kill you while soldiers and jarheads fight for their lives and yours.

[sst]

Ah, just far enough that you don't have to care about his death.

Why would I care about his death? He was planting and IED on our exfil route that would have gone off when an American was driving by it, an American who is trying to stop the violence in the country and keep all the innocent civilians safe. So, the only feelings I had at the time, and still have to this day is a feeling of satisfaction. That feeling of satisfaction applies for every combatant that I have seen dead or killed, and I have seen a lot. The people I feel bad for are the innocent ones who were caught by their or our bullets, however it has been far more theirs than ours, we aim when we shoot...

Be a pacifist, that’s fine, but don’t fea,r as George Orwell put it "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

So you can go and live in your Idealist world where being nice makes people not want to kill you while soldiers and jarheads (<3 the marines) fight for their lives and yours.

[Warriorbird]

Eh... I'm not sure Orwell's the best person for you to quote.

[sst]

The quote it perfect for the situation. ;)

[TheEschaton]

The quote isn't from Orwell, it's from Churchill, the ultimate cynical politician. Orwell dabbled in socialism.

It's commonly attributed to Orwell, because it lends the quote more weight, coming from such an "anti-establishment" author.

[Warriorbird]

Ha. Well, I learned at least one thing tonight. I learned it as Orwell's from a high school teacher.

[TheEschaton]

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Alternative: "We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us."

Notes: allegedly said by George Orwell although there is no evidence that Orwell ever wrote or uttered either of these versions of this idea. They do bear some similarity to comments made in an essay that Orwell wrote on Rudyard Kipling, when quoting from one of his poems.
"Yes, making mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep" - Rudyard Kipling (Tommy)


-TheE-

[sst]

The quote isn't from Orwell, it's from Churchill, the ultimate cynical politician. Orwell dabbled in socialism.

It's commonly attributed to Orwell, because it lends the quote more weight, coming from such an "anti-establishment" author.

Works for me still, I like Churchill better than Orwell anyways. =)

[Methais]

Ah, just far enough that you don't have to care about his death.

Wait....are you seriously saying he should care about the death of someone that was planting a bomb in order to kill him and/or other American soldiers?

[Clove]

Wait....are you seriously saying he should care about the death of someone that was planting a bomb in order to kill him and/or other American soldiers?


It must be that time of the month for the TheE. Maybe he needs a Midol and a Reeses too.

Yeah, but I'm hoping CT has the correct explanation and in a week or so he'll be rational again.

[Sean of the Thread]

Churchill rules.

[Tea & Strumpets]

TheE is just talking like an idiot and pretending he's enlightened. Nothing new.

[Parkbandit]

TheE is just talking like an idiot and pretending he's enlightened. Nothing new.


Wikipedia does that to some people. It's like beer muscles to nerds.

[Stanley Burrell]

I already won this thread a page or three back by posting Ken Marshall's sporting his weapon from "Krull." So pretty much everything else posted here is moot.

It can end now, people. Seriously.

[TheEschaton]

Luckily, I am not dismayed by two people on the interwebs who don't think much of me. Especially when one has the name Tea & Strumpets.

-TheE-

[Atlanteax]

Luckily, I am not dismayed by two people on the interwebs who don't think much of me. Especially when one has the name Tea & Strumpets.

-TheE-

You mean you weren't the guy (or "Pat") in the "Leave Brittany Alone" video?!!? I thought you'd be emotionally devasted and left a crying and whimpering wreck ?!?!

[Celephais]

How would you feel about three?

-TheC-

[Gan]

Or 4?

[TheEschaton]

It could be all the PC, and I'd not give a crap.

-TheEschaton, bitches-

I only ever started signing my posts -TheE- because Dave used to sign his E before I got here.

[Warriorbird]

If those are all the people that disagree with him in his life? I'm sure he's blessed.

[Clove]

Let's say 5. Anyone wanna make it a cool 1/2 dozen?

-TheCl-

[Celephais]

-TheEschaton, bitches-

I only ever started signing my posts -TheE- because Dave used to sign his E before I got here.
So... you aspired to be like Dave?

[Clove]

If those are all the people that disagree with him in his life? I'm sure he's blessed.

I'm sure he's not (blessed).

[Warriorbird]

5? Well, it's all over then.

:chuckles:

[Sean]

Uh oh 5 people he's now almost at 1% of the active PC population (per the front page). I'm sure he's devastated.

[Clove]

Uh oh 5 people he's now almost at 1% of the active PC population (per the front page). I'm sure he's devastated.

What d'ya mean? If this were an Ilvane survey that would make 10% of America against his posts.

[Celephais]

TheE has mood swings worse than a girl, one minute he can be cool, the next he's saying fuck the world*, the next he wants to hug everybody.

*Usually when drunk.

[Sean]

If I had to venture a guess given that you're an individual who considers hugging everyone uncool I'd say you weren't hugged much as a child.

[TheEschaton]

Listen, all I said was distance from the person a sniper kills emotionally detaches a person from the person killed. I'm not saying you have to be the guy's best friend, but hell, when Dave comes here being like, "Whoa, that was cool", I happen to think there's something very disturbing in that sentiment.

That there is no longer an acknowledgement that every killing of another human being is bad and tragic, if necessary in some situations, is fucking pathetic in my book. I'm not saying celebrate this bomber's life as upstanding and excellent, I'm just saying, have a little regret that the guy forced your hand so much.

I'm not on my period, but I did have a debate over whether we can even call killing another human being intrinsically even. In cases of self-defense, he said it was a "less good" thing, I said the killing was a "less bad" thing - in the end, it was all a matter of semantics. He placed the value more on his own life, I place my value on all lives evenly, and all before my own.

I think it would be a good debate: must morality be other-centered, or can it be self-centered? Is acting solely in one's interest inherently immoral...or might it possibly be inherently moral?

The latter would of course, throw my whole belief system out the door.

-TheE-

[Celephais]

I think the problem is that you believe that human beings are more than just sacks of flesh... myself and "them" included. The value of life isn't functioning grey matter, it's what we do.


and all before my own.Nice plug though.

[TheEschaton]

Eh - I think saying human beings are solely what they do is an inherent failure of imagination.

[Celephais]

I think you're suggesting someone feel bad for doing something that given the exact same set of circumstances again they would do exactly the same thing. When all feeling bad does is make you feel bad, what the fucks the point?

You can't live life regretting things, and you can't live life wondering what'll happen if, or the butterfly effect will catch up with you and you'll do nothing.

Before that sniper saw that terrorist planting the IED that terrorist didn't exist to the sniper, after he did his job, once again that terrorist didn't exist. There is no point in putting weight on that life when it would serve no purpose.

I think the easiest way for a person in the position of the sniper to maintain his humanity would be to detach from it when he must perform inhumane acts to protect others and himself.

[Clove]

Listen, all I said was distance from the person a sniper kills emotionally detaches a person from the person killed. ...

I don't accept that as true and I don't think it's fair for you to make that assumption since (unless I'm mistaken) you've never looked through a scope and killed a living being nor are you an expert on human psychology.


That there is no longer an acknowledgement that every killing of another human being is bad and tragic, if necessary in some situations, is fucking pathetic in my book....
-TheE-

From my understanding of history and philosophy that general belief has rarely (if ever) been held. Perhaps bad and tragic in most cases but never universally. In some societies they would have considered you childish, or brain damaged for even suggesting that all life is equally valuable and/or moral and therefore all loss of life is bad.

[Gan]

Eh - I think saying human beings are solely what they do is an inherent failure of imagination.

As the opposite would be considered nothing but imagination.

[Celephais]

Eh - I think saying human beings are solely what they do is an inherent failure of imagination.
I didn't actually reply to this... Yes, it is an intentional failure of imagination, because this is the real world. I understand the value of imagination, but when it comes to waxing philosophical or discussions of the value of human life, imagination is a distraction from that which is real.

Gan covered that though...

[Sean]

Aborted fetuses disagee! They have value and they havn't done anything!

I felt this thread was missing the necessary prerequisite abortion subtopic as all thread on the PC must somehow relate to abortion.

[Haywood J.]

I come from a family of avid hunters, and I've been hunting and shot living things before. I have never been able to pull the trigger on a large mammal though, solely because I don't need the food to live, and they aren't endangering me in any way. I love going hunting though, and I don't look less upon my friends and family who I go with, who do pull the trigger.

I would imagine, aiming at, knowingly firing upon, and killing a person with a long range weapon might desensitize a person SOME, but I just can't imagine it negates it. I even LIKE venison and I won't shoot a deer.

I'll wring the neck on a bird though. Funny how that works. Anyway, I think it's great they shot the person for a number of reasons. 1) It's a person actively engaged in the war, fighting against our troops. They know what they are doing. 2) Roadside bombs are such an act of cowardice it disgusts me. What if a group of children were killed by it? It's impersonal and anonymous, your example of putting distance would be better applied to that person, than the snipper.

[Methais]

Luckily, I am not dismayed by two people on the interwebs who don't think much of me. Especially when one has the name Tea & Strumpets.

-TheE-

So you seriously are saying that he should care about the death of someone that was planting a bomb in order to kill him and/or other American soldiers?

Why?

[TheEschaton]

He should care that he was forced to kill a person, and should probably regret that the guy forced his hand thus. As for regretting the guy's death in relation to the guy, eh, I suppose I would regret that the guy made such stupid decisions with his life.

[Methais]

Well I guess that's one way to word it. I thought you were taking the StrayRogue route of "If someone's trying to kill me, what right do I have to kill them?" from some thread a while back.

[Parkbandit]

Eh - I think saying human beings are solely what they do is an inherent failure of imagination.


You really are self deluded. No one is saying that your over imagination isn't cute and happy and gay.. we're saying that you have no foot in reality when you make these broad generalizations. There has never, ever been a time in which man has been in perfect peace and harmony.. and to believe that the day is right around the corner because you imagined it in your fantasy world is a fucking joke... much like most of your points in a political thread.

[Celephais]

He should care that he was forced to kill a person, and should probably regret that the guy forced his hand thus. As for regretting the guy's death in relation to the guy, eh, I suppose I would regret that the guy made such stupid decisions with his life.
So he'll regret it... then when put in the same position, do the same thing?

That's not regret. I'm sure he's not jumping for joy that the guy lined up in his sights, but there is no point or reason to regret the stupid mistakes of others, it accomplishes nothing but make you into a worthless emo sack.

[Methais]

emo sack

I like that one :lol:

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Celephasis
I'm sure he's not jumping for joy that the guy lined up in his sites

Maybe, Maybe not. But I get the impression it was one of those OMFG how awesome was that! Did you see that shot thats fucking amazing too bad it was too far away to get on film! type moments from Dave's post.

[Gan]

This moment brought to you by:

http://www.thejasoncraneshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/carebear.gif

[DeV]

Maybe he needs a Midol and a Reeses too.Hardy har fucking har...

On topic, I agree with Sean's sentiments. This is TheEdine we're talking about here.

[TheEschaton]

Oddly enough, PB, I don't think my ideals are possible soon, mainly because of people like you. However, if something isn't achievable in my lifetime, that doesn't mean I'm not going to be constantly working towards it anyways.

And Dave's post struck me exactly as Sean said it, which strikes me as an unhealthy point of view.

I have watched many people die, mainly from AIDS, and seeing someone die (especially from something preventable) is awful. Having a hand in it is, and should be, an even worse feeling.

(Think Faramir in LOTR: The Two Towers, and his speech about the enemy he killed.)

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Oddly enough, PB, I don't think my ideals are possible soon, mainly because of people like you.

-TheE-

You mean people who deal with facts and real life?

Sorry chump.. last place I want an invite to is your fantasy world.

[Gan]

Oddly enough, PB, I don't think my ideals are possible soon, mainly because of people like you. However, if something isn't achievable in my lifetime, that doesn't mean I'm not going to be constantly working towards it anyways.

And Dave's post struck me exactly as Sean said it, which strikes me as an unhealthy point of view.

I have watched many people die, mainly from AIDS, and seeing someone die (especially from something preventable) is awful. Having a hand in it is, and should be, an even worse feeling.

(Think Faramir in LOTR: The Two Towers, and his speech about the enemy he killed.)

-TheE-

I want this preserved for later comment and reflection. For now, its just beyond any words...

[Latrinsorm]

You can't live life regretting things, and you can't live life wondering what'll happen if, or the butterfly effect will catch up with you and you'll do nothing.
So he'll regret it... then when put in the same position, do the same thing?Nnnot really. Refusing to recognize inadequate situations is tantamount to stagnancy.

Even I think that sounds high-falutin', but it's true. It's a question of avoiding extremes: both the extreme of paralyzing self-doubt and the extreme of thoughtlessness/apathy (Nietzsche's great nausea, as long as we're going to talk about philosophy).
From my understanding of history and philosophy that general belief has rarely (if ever) been held.It's fairly commonplace so long as you interpret "human being" contextually (aka bigotedly).

[Clove]

Oddly enough, PB, I don't think my ideals are possible soon, mainly because of people like you. However, if something isn't achievable in my lifetime, that doesn't mean I'm not going to be constantly working towards it anyways.

And Dave's post struck me exactly as Sean said it, which strikes me as an unhealthy point of view.

I have watched many people die, mainly from AIDS, and seeing someone die (especially from something preventable) is awful. Having a hand in it is, and should be, an even worse feeling.

(Think Faramir in LOTR: The Two Towers, and his speech about the enemy he killed.)

-TheE-


Despite the sentiments of fantasy novel monologues I find it a little disturbing when someone that doesn't seem to have any familiarity with combat or combat conditions can have such set opinions on what is healthy or unhealthy for those that must survive in them. Personally I think it is healthy to rejoice in a victory over your enemy in those circumstances; it means you and those with you and those you are defending have survived and won the day. I also think it is healthy for us to rejoice with them. They are our own and our loyalties lie with them first. I would expect the same reaction from the scumbag saboteur's cadre had it worked out differently nor would I begrudge them of it.

Are the conditions of war horrible? Yes. Is the pain, suffering and loss of life something to be regretted? Certainly. Because of that, should we find ourselves in the midst of violence we should waste time and energy mourning how imperfect and awful the circumstances are? Fuck no. We should set our sites on being victorious and celebrate when we are. End of story. This is reality. This is competition.

[TheEschaton]

Your view of reality is incredibly twisted and sickening.

Celebrating the death of one's enemy is at the very least anti-Christian morality, and I would argue, naturally immorally as well.

Oh, and your view being the dominant one of humankind is also off base - Christian morality is also more aligned with my thought, even if it hasn't been applied by Christians throughout the world.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

I want this preserved for later comment and reflection. For now, its just beyond any words...

And I have never edited my comments to change potentially embarassing statements. I stand by my words.

[Parkbandit]

Your view of reality is incredibly twisted and sickening.

Celebrating the death of one's enemy is at the very least anti-Christian morality, and I would argue, naturally immorally as well.

Oh, and your view being the dominant one of humankind is also off base - Christian morality is also more aligned with my thought, even if it hasn't been applied by Christians throughout the world.

-TheE-

I hope this wasn't in regards to my post... but I'm going to pretend it was.

My view of reality is at least.. BASED UPON REALITY. Your's is nothing more than a product of your imagination.

Again.. since you seem to be completely clueless. No sane individual would NOT want peace, harmony, chocolate covered gumdrops off every tree, etc... but that simply isn't the world we live on. That isn't the planet Earth at any time in man's history. Wanting it to be that way doesn't make that dream closer to reality. I would LOVE that we could all just disband every military force, police force, national guard, peace corps, the UN.. destroy all weapons of every kind and hug people everyday.

But it's impractical to debate real life issues in a fantasy world setting.

[Methais]

Would you give huge hugs to Haashek?

[Warriorbird]

Anticor would.

[Clove]

Your view of reality is incredibly twisted and sickening.

Celebrating the death of one's enemy is at the very least anti-Christian morality, and I would argue, naturally immorally as well.

Oh, and your view being the dominant one of humankind is also off base - Christian morality is also more aligned with my thought, even if it hasn't been applied by Christians throughout the world.

-TheE-

It is healthy to celebrate your victory over your enemy even though it involves his death. It is a value system where your survival (your family's, your team's, your city's, nation's) takes priority over the death of your enemy. Parkbandit is correct you're in a fantasy world.

You are a worse biblical scholar than you are an expert on human psychology. It suffices to say that the Bible and several Christian theologians would support what I've said. Start with Psalms (its poetry often involves rejoicing at the downfall of one's enemies).

Honestly E. you're starting to sound like Chris Crocker.

[Methais]

Anticor would.

That's Super Anticor to you.

[Parkbandit]

Would you give huge hugs to Haashek?


He's a super dad Methais.. I would expect someone who's been playing GS as long as you have to know this fact. If you still have doubts.. ask Anticor.

[Methais]

He's also a super granddad and super great granddad <3

[Parkbandit]

Please tell me he's still playing.

[Stanley Burrell]

I want this preserved for later comment and reflection. For now, its just beyond any words...

I know you're pretending to ignore me, but I'm pretty certain that TheE actually meant that AIDS could be controlled through means of not, like, immediately some magical already existing cure all. And that if you read into his post for, like, a picosecond..? ...That it is pretty evident he wasn't suggesting that.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I know you're pretending to ignore me, but I'm pretty certain that TheE actually meant that AIDS could be controlled through means of not, like, immediately some magical already existing cure all. And that if you read into his post for, like, a picosecond..? ...That it is pretty evident he wasn't suggesting that.


I think Gan was referring to the awesome Lord of the Rings reference...at least that was the funniest part of the post to me.

[Stanley Burrell]

I think Gan was referring to the awesome Lord of the Rings reference...at least that was the funniest part of the post to me.

Oh. That did read pretty cracked out, but this is a mystical, magical GemStone IV Players' Corner Forum. And, I mean, if it doesn't make your corneas bleed, look what I post for fuck's sake.

[Latrinsorm]

It suffices to say that the Bible and several Christian theologians would support what I've said. Start with Psalms (its poetry often involves rejoicing at the downfall of one's enemies).The covenant with Israel notes that Israel are the chosen people of God. It's not until Christ that the covenant is extended to all humans. This, btw, is a good example of what I was referring to before. To the Israelites (who bought into the whole Jehovah thing), the Gentiles were literally inferior races: of course it was ok to rejoice at their defeat. The key concept is Israel's reaction to the loss of (what they considered) fellow humans in the fullest sense. I would direct you to David's reaction to the news about his son Absalom.

[Gan]

I think Gan was referring to the awesome Lord of the Rings reference...at least that was the funniest part of the post to me.

Bingo.

And yes, Stans posts are still ignored.

[TheEschaton]

I would refer you to Jesus, and all the red writing in the Bible.

And then I'd refer you to Pope John Paul II, a conservative theologian, who said that a just war is impossible in this day and age, and consistently called for peace in all conflicts.

Edit: and just because it's a work of fiction, Gan, doesn't make it less true!

[Gan]

I would refer you to Jesus, and all the red writing in the Bible.
Well and good, but what about those who dont believe in Jesus or the Bible?


And then I'd refer you to Pope John Paul II, a conservative theologian, who said that a just war is impossible in this day and age, and consistently called for peace in all conflicts.
ROFL at you interposing someone who represents the idea that in order to pray to God/Jesus you must first pray to your local priest, who then prays to his boss, who then prays to his boss, ... ad nausem, until the prayer lands on the Pope's desk so he can pray on your behalf to God.
Whatever... :lol:


Edit: and just because it's a work of fiction, Gan, doesn't make it less true! So fiction = truth now? :puzzled:

[Latrinsorm]

Well and good, but what about those who dont believe in Jesus or the Bible?I would assume he's referring specifically to the guy who said "the bible disagrees with you".
ROFL at you interposing someone who represents the idea thatThat's, uh, not what the Catholic Church represents. :)

[Gan]

That's, uh, not what the Catholic Church represents. :)

So, uh, its not taught to Catholics that they cant pray directly to God but have to pray through their priest, who in turn sends it up the chain of command?

I'm not catholic so someone clarify.

[Celephais]

I wasn't raised catholic either, but I'm pretty sure they can pray directly to God (er, not pretty sure... positive), they also pray directly to jesus and mary... the hierarchy thing you were looking to make fun of (which I like to make fun of) is that the Pope's word is "The Word of God", and that because of their position, their interpretation of the bible is more accurate than yours (basically you're not allowed to interpret it yourself).

I think.

[Gan]

Perhaps I am incorrect. And yes, any one human/man/person who says I have to pray/confer to them before I confer with God will get laughed at by me, for obvious reasons.

I think I'll ask my neighbor this afternoon about it, hopefully he wont go on a long diatribe.

[CrystalTears]

I think you're referring to confessions. Confessions are told to your priest and he in turn absolves you on behalf of God. You can pray to whomever you want directly. :D

[Clove]

I would refer you to Jesus, and all the red writing in the Bible.

Very well, if I need to refer to the red letters specifically to include the entire Bible as support for Christian values and ideas how about:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill" - Matthew 5:17



And then I'd refer you to Pope John Paul II, a conservative theologian, who said that a just war is impossible in this day and age, and consistently called for peace in all conflicts.


Calling for peace is something everyone should do. That doesn't change the fact that when you aren't in conditions of peace it is entirely valid (morally) to celebrate your victory over your enemies. I'm confident C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas and Immi Kant would all approve.

[TheEschaton]

But that's relevant to the idea that we shouldn't be in this war to begin with, and thus should regret even more any life lost to it.

[Clove]

The key concept is Israel's reaction to the loss of (what they considered) fellow humans in the fullest sense. I would direct you to David's reaction to the news about his son Absalom.

Trust me, I understood your original point. Yes those writers considered their targets inferior races, but the concept of just death extended to their own too. Adulteresses for example. And please don't split hairs over roles and status of men vs. women in ancient Isreal, I used the example because it was easy and widely recognized, men were vulnerable to capital offenses too.

If death of a human was appropriate - it was appropriate. This is the widely held philosophy I am speaking of.

[Clove]

But that's relevant to the idea that we shouldn't be in this war to begin with, and thus should regret even more any life lost to it.

The master of circular logic. Could you at least move further from my region before you begin practicing law?

[sst]

Okay, so there are no more debate on my feelings and or views behind the TERRORIST getting shot by one of our snipers. This is how I felt put into words “OMFG DID YOU JUST HIT HIM, FUCKING AWESOME!!11 LETS SEE IF HIS FRIENDS COME TO FINISH PLANTING THE IED” Instead of waiting, the company moved an element to the guy to dispose of the IED and provide medical assistance to the guy we just shot, as is standard once the area is deemed safe enough to do so. ( he was dead a .50 cal is pretty leathal )

Look TheE, when somebody tries to kill me, or the people I do everything in my power to protect, I'm going to celebrate the victory. It is sad that in war victory most often is your survival and the other guys death, but that’s the breaks of it.

I feel sorry that his death was necessary; I do not however feel bad that he is dead. I felt horrible that the deaths in Zarka (aka battle of Najaf 07) were necessary; yet again I did not feel bad that the people were dead. All the nice little gunfights my company got into in Sadr City every night for the last three months (I'm sure you’ve heard about some of them on the news back in the states, contrary to reports they were not civilians out at 3am in the morning after curfew with AK’s PKC’s RPK’s RPG’s etc) and coming out of those situations alive is something to celebrate. I feel bad for the necessity of it, I do not feel bad for the end result, us alive them dead.

TheE, you're welcome to want to hug these fuckers, but while you do that make sure somebody who is willing to protect you is around, or not only will they kill you, they will torture you in the process, they will use a drill to make holes in your body, peel off the skin from the soles of your feet as your hanging from the wall and forced to continue to stand on them.

[Stanley Burrell]

One of my best friends died in Fallujah.

I think it's fucked up you're being called back to duty after your time served. Even with "free time" you have this looming bullshit. It's ridiculous.

[Latrinsorm]

So, uh, its not taught to Catholics that they cant pray directly to God but have to pray through their priest, who in turn sends it up the chain of command?No, it is not.
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill" - Matthew 5:17Why do we have to go over and over this? I'm surprised you didn't use Matthew 5:18, where Jesus says not one stroke of one letter will pass away. Here's the problem with your assessment: IMMEDIATELY following these statements Jesus contradicts Moses on the issue of divorce, which (guess what) was well-entrenched in the law. Jesus even provides the explanation for this apparent contradiction: the only reason God allowed that sort of thing to begin with was because of the hardness of the Israelites' hearts: it was never the Law (capital) to begin with!!

This makes it obvious that anything that explicitly contradicts Jesus' message from the Old Testament is discardable at best and to be decried at worst.
I'm confident C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas and Immi Kant would all approve.Kant definitely would not. You could certainly not will it to be a natural law that every man take up a rifle and fire at his fellows (to put it as Kant would). Conversely, everyone in this thread so far has intimated that they would will it that peace was universal, the only disagreement has been whether this will can be made manifest (and if not, whether it is useful or harmful).
And please don't split hairs over roles and status of men vs. women in ancient Isreal, I used the example because it was easy and widely recognized, men were vulnerable to capital offenses too.The important difference is that the death of Gentiles was celebrated (as you've pointed out); the death of fellow Israelites was cause for mourning (as I've pointed out). That they followed divine commandments to kill each other is more evidence of how precarious their situation was then that they didn't consider killing each other "bad and tragic, if necessary in some situations".

[senorgordoburro]

Protestors have a right to do so, and I support that even when they are protesting wars. But a while back when they would protest at the funerals of fallen Soldiers/Marines is horrible. For one, the people who are actually fighting the battles are not the one that chose to go. And the ones that made these decisions sit in well protected offices, and do what they feel is right. Also, protestors should be able to bitch and moan all they want, but when young Americans are dying, they need to either bitch about something else or just shut the hell up in my opinion. They have no idea how crushing it is for a parent that has recently lost a child to turn on the T.V. and see Americans basically telling them that their child died for nothing. One of my friends died while serving with me over a year ago, and to this day there are people in his home town that protest and it crushes his parents every time they see this.
So to get to my point, there is a difference between protesting a war and protesting against those that fight it.

[Stanley Burrell]

Protestors have a right to do so, and I support that even when they are protesting wars. But a while back when they would protest at the funerals of fallen Soldiers/Marines is horrible.

Purty please do not lump R. Phelps into the same group as any other species of human being, protesting or not.

[senorgordoburro]

LOL, I'm not saying anything personal about protestors at all, except that they lack common sense. They would be able to accomplish much more if they spent there voluntering on a politicians campaign, or with relief organizations or doing anything along those lines, they might actually be able to influence America and complete there goal. But, if you just like to hold signs in the air and yell at people in cars when they drive by... you can just pretend that your actually doing something worthwhile.

[TheEschaton]

Who says protesters don't volunteer on political campaigns in additiopn to their protesting?

[Warriorbird]

I don't think you're protecting us from much in Iraq, Dave. I appreciate your service and your bravery...I just don't think we're in the right place. Now...protecting Iraqis? That you could argue for.

[sst]

I don't think you're protecting us from much in Iraq, Dave. I appreciate your service and your bravery...I just don't think we're in the right place. Now...protecting Iraqis? That you could argue for.

Come on WB I know you can read better than that

I'll quote it


TheE, you're welcome to want to hug these fuckers, but while you do that make sure somebody who is willing to protect you is around, or not only will they kill you, they will torture you in the process, they will use a drill to make holes in your body, peel off the skin from the soles of your feet as your hanging from the wall and forced to continue to stand on them.