Jena, LA 6 Charged with Attempted Murder Up to 100 yrs

[chillmonster]

Racial tensions at high school lead to controversy in Louisiana (http://www.buffalonews.com/180/story/139285.html)


Racial tensions at high school lead to controversy in Louisiana
FROM NEWS WIRE SERVICES
Updated: 08/12/07 6:55 AM


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JENA, La. — In this small, mostly white rural town of 3,000 in central Louisiana’s La- Salle Parish, the trouble began, nearly a year ago, with a tree.

The tree was on a side of the Jena High School campus that, by long-standing tradition, had always been claimed by white students, who make up more than 80 percent of the school’s 460 students. But in late August 2006, some of the school’s 85 black students asked school administrators if they, too, could sit in the tree’s cooling shade.

“Sit wherever you want, ” school officials told them.

The next day, three nooses, in the school’s colors, were hanging from the “white tree.”

Black students and their parents were outraged. Three white students were quickly identified as being responsible, and the high school principal recommended that they be expelled.

But Jena’s white school superintendent, Roy Breithaupt, overruled the principal, calling the display a prank. Breithaupt suspended the students for three days. After that, things got worse.

First, a series of fights between black and white students erupted at the high school over the nooses. Then, black students organized a sit-in under the tree to protest the light punishment given to the noosehanging white students.

In response, Reed Walters, LaSalle Parish’s district attorney, came to Jena High to address a school assembly. According to court papers, the white district attorney threat - ened black students, saying that if they didn’t stop making a fuss about the “innocent prank, I can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I can take away your lives with a stroke of my pen.”

Walters denies making threats. Regardless, after his visit, the school was put on lockdown for the rest of the week.

But that wasn’t the end of it. On Nov. 30, unknown arsonists burned down the school’s central wing.

The next day, a white youth beat up a black student who showed up at an all-white party. On Dec. 2, another white teen pulled a shotgun on three black students at a convenience store.

And on Dec. 4, a group of black students at the high school jumped a white student on his way out of the gym. The victim, a friend of the students who hung the nooses, was allegedly targeted because he had been taunting blacks. He was not seriously injured and spent only a few hours in the hospital.

But Walters charged six black students with attempted second-degree murder and other offenses, for which they could face a maximum of 100 years in prison if convicted....

[Warriorbird]

They've already gotten one guy's charges knocked down and his trial pushed back. Hopefully they'll manage to do decent work for the others. Poisonous situation all around though.

[chillmonster]

These were 15 and 16 year old kids, and this was a fight. They weren't trouble makers and most hand't been suspended. The kid who got the charges knocked down was convicted of aggrivated battery after a trial where his public defender didn't call ONE WITNESS IN HIS FAVOR. Keep in mind, in order to be convicted of aggrivated battery, you have to be using a deadly weapon. Absent such, the procecutors and the jury had to consider tennis shoes deadly weapons. This kid could face 20 years.

Also, CNN reported that some of the kids charged are said to have been trying to break up the fight.

[Warriorbird]

Interesting. Made me dig a bit deeper. Least he's got an appeal coming. Crazy stuff.

[Blazing247]

Probably the most poorly written and unbelievably biased article I've read in awhile, but I'm pretty dismayed that white people still do shit like that with nooses, such a disgrace to our race. The rest of the article was completely devoid of fact, so it's hard to have an opinion.

[Gelston]

Racism is still alive and well in many places in the South. Its just usually a little bit more quiet nowadays.

[Skeeter]

Probably the most poorly written and unbelievably biased article I've read in awhile, but I'm pretty dismayed that white people still do shit like that with nooses, such a disgrace to our race. The rest of the article was completely devoid of fact, so it's hard to have an opinion.

Because only white people are racist?

I dismayed that people of any color still do this shit.

[Gelston]

Theres a Chris Rock skit... How'd it go.. It went about old black men being the most racist people on the planet.

Here it is... Funny as hell..

There's nothing more racist
than an old black man. You know why?



'Cause an old black man
went through some real racism.



He didn't go through that
l-can't-get-a-cab shit.



He was the cab.



A white man just jump on his back,
''Main Street.



''Left, nigger!



''Left, you fucking nigger!''



You know what's wild
about the old black men?



An old black man,
he ain't gonna let you fuck up his money.



Whenever an old black man
sees an old white man...



the old black man always
kisses the old white man's ass.



''How you doing, sir? Pleased to meet you.
Whatever l can get you, you let me know.''



As soon as the white man get out of sight,
he's like:



''Cracker-ass cracker!



''l'll put my foot in the crack of your ass,
cracker-ass cracker!



''l wish that cracker would've said some shit
to me, saltine-assed, motherfucking cracker!



''Cracker, kiss my ass, you fucking cracker!''



The white man come back. ''Howdy, sir?''

[Sean of the Thread]

Idiots burned part of the school.. real bright. Burning the tree would have been a better idea.

[chillmonster]

Probably the most poorly written and unbelievably biased article I've read in awhile, but I'm pretty dismayed that white people still do shit like that with nooses, such a disgrace to our race. The rest of the article was completely devoid of fact, so it's hard to have an opinion.

Then please post something less biased.

And there's no reason to be surprised that this shit still happens. Anyone who's done any real research into this will tell you that race still plays a huge part in sentencing, but that's not the reason I'm dismayed. What gets me is these are KIDS, and these people are ruining their lives. A 10 day suspension is the right punishment for a really bad school fight, but no one stepped up and said anything.

Yeah, there are obviously some racial tensions in this town, but that's not why this happened. The judge, jury, prosecutor, public defender, and the victim's parents were probably good people, but it was still so easy to see this boys not as kids, but as dangers to society. Yes, all the kids involved made some horrible decisions, but teenage boys do that sometimes. It's the job of adults to teach them how to work through their problems and make them better men. Years in jail isn't going to accomplish that.

Sorry for the shit writing. I'm tired and I'm without coffie this morning. :(

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Then please post something less biased.>>

I imagine he wasn't there... and neither were you.

[chillmonster]

<<Then please post something less biased.>>

I imagine he wasn't there... and neither were you.

Why?

[Methais]

Why ask why? Try Bud Dry.

[chillmonster]

Why ask why? Try Bud Dry.

Bud = beer flavored water

Bass Ale

[Daniel]

There is no Racism in America


- ParkBandit.

[Tsa`ah]

Probably the most poorly written and unbelievably biased article I've read in awhile, but I'm pretty dismayed that white people still do shit like that with nooses, such a disgrace to our race. The rest of the article was completely devoid of fact, so it's hard to have an opinion.

What facts do you want?

The three white kids who strung up nooses in the tree were to be expelled until the superintendent stepped in and called it a "harmless" prank ... gave them a 3 day suspension.

Most of my life has been spent north of the Mason Dixon line, but I imagine a noose in a tree has a very explicit meaning to black folks when white boys put them up. That's indicative of a death threat at most, intimidation at the least.

But that's just one fact.

Let's see ...

The Parish DA addressed the black students about being pissed off about the nooses and pretty much threatened them with his pen and their lives.

White kid beat up a black kid ... white kid wasn't charged.

White kid pulled a gun on 3 black kids ... white kid wasn't charged.

Six black kids jump a white friend of one of the white noose hangers ... all of them are charged with "attempted" 2nd degree murder and expelled from school.

The first defendant walked into a court room that harkened of "A Time to Kill" and I'm reminded of Jackson's line ... "This is a jury of my peers?"

For an article that didn't have any facts ... I found a few.

[TheEschaton]

White kid pulled a gun on 3 black kids...white kid wasn't charged. But when the 3 kids wrestled the gun away from the white kid, they were charged with aggravated battery, and THEFT (of the weapon).

-TheE-

[Gan]

Unfortunately this is a familiar story in some of the backwater places here in Texas. In those cases, stupidity, being uneducated, and a little inbred while being par for the course, is still no justification for watching it still happen.

My hope is that someday that perception, culture, and way of thinking will die out. Someday...

[thefarmer]

Unfortunately this is a familiar story in some of the backwater places here in Texas. In those cases, stupidity, being uneducated, and a little inbred while being par for the course, is still no justification for watching it still happen.

My hope is that someday that perception, culture, and way of thinking will die out. Someday...

I've met smart, well educated, non-inbred people of all colors that would easily fit into the slavery-era American mindset. Racist values and stereotypes are taught across all social boundaries.

I had a university prof. once remark that..

"Our football teams gonna suck this year. We got a bunch of pansy white boys from prep schools. We need some niggers on the team. THEY can play some ball!"

He was asian, and we all know asians are racists. Hell, they're racists against OTHER yellow people if they're from a different country.

[Nieninque]

Racist values and stereotypes are taught across all social boundaries....He was asian, and we all know asians are racists.

Hmmm

[ViridianAsp]

Unfortunately this is a familiar story in some of the backwater places here in Texas. In those cases, stupidity, being uneducated, and a little inbred while being par for the course, is still no justification for watching it still happen.

My hope is that someday that perception, culture, and way of thinking will die out. Someday...


Gan, I don't appreciate you talking so badly about my Texan relatives, they can't help it. Not cool.


This whole story sounds like it has a lot of holes in it and is more heresay than fact. Do I doubt this happened? No, but if I've learned anything from media is they will embellish the hell out of a story.

Those kids who hung the nooses should have been charged with something if not a hate crime. What is worse is that where were the damn adults in this matter making sure it didn't escalate? I mean, teachers and facualty.

[Celephais]

I've met smart, well educated, non-inbred people of all colors that would easily fit into the slavery-era American mindset. Racist values and stereotypes are taught across all social boundaries.

He was asian, and we all know asians are racists. Hell, they're racists against OTHER yellow people if they're from a different country.

Out of curiosity, what social boundry do you fit in?

[Gan]

I am in agreement that predjeuce is not limited to only those of a specific skin color. Its an affliction that affects many and is oblivious to age, gender, income, or even education.


Its just that in my travels and experiences I see a greater prevalance of it in isolated/uneducated rural areas as compared to areas where people of different cultures and appearances are more frequent.

[Celephais]

I am in agreement that predjeuce is not limited to only those of a specific skin color. Its an affliction that affects many and is oblivious to age, gender, income, or even education.


Its just that in my travels and experiences I see a greater prevalance of it in isolated/uneducated rural areas as compared to areas where people of different cultures and appearances are more frequent.
No disagreeing with him, I just think it's funny how his example states that anyone can be racist... then goes on to say that asians are racist as a blanket statement. Unless he was attempting to be funny but...

besides, everybodies a little bit racist </showtune>

[Kefka]

Theres a Chris Rock skit... How'd it go.. It went about old black men being the most racist people on the planet.

“Everybody’s trying to scare us! Telling us to be on the lookout for Al-Qaeda. Where, where, where? I ain’t scared of Al-Qaeda! I’m from Brooklyn; I ain’t scared of Al-Qaeda, okay? Shit, motherfuck Al-Qaeda. Did Al-Qaeda blow up the building in Oklahoma City? No! Did Al-Qaeda put the Anthrax in your mail? No! Did Al-Qaeda drag James Byrd down the street till his eyeballs popped out his fucking head? No! I ain’t scared of Al-Qaeda. I’m scared of Al-Cracka!” - Chris Rock

[chillmonster]

Those kids who hung the nooses should have been charged with something if not a hate crime. What is worse is that where were the damn adults in this matter making sure it didn't escalate? I mean, teachers and facualty.

You're missing the point. THESE ARE ALL KIDS. None of them should be charged with anything. Well, the guy at the party who hit the kid over the head with a bottle should have spent a couple of nights in jail.

This is the reason why we should have some forum or class where kids can talk about race issues. The fact that we still can't even talk about it, only allows racism to fester just below the surface. So what happens? You have closet white racists all over the place, and black kids around the country that hear all the time how you can never trust a white person because nomatter how nice they are, they're only pretending to like you.

[CrystalTears]

Kids still need to be dealt with though. Just because they are under 18 doesn't mean that they should be let go with just a slap on the hand and a talking to. You really think a talking to would have stopped those boys from having a shooting spree in Columbine?

[Aaysia]

Chris Rock is not funny :(

[chillmonster]

Kids still need to be dealt with though. Just because they are under 18 doesn't mean that they should be let go with just a slap on the hand and a talking to. You really think a talking to would have stopped those boys from having a shooting spree in Columbine?

This is not Columbine, and if adults were talking to those kids and seeing where their heads were there's a good chance that tragedy could have been avoided. That's however is beside the point.

I'm not saying waggle your finger and let them go. I understand that kids need discipline. A suspension and a formal hearing may not seem that much to you, but that's a big deal to most kids and parents. Putting kids into the legal system destroys their lives and should be a last resort.

[Gan]

This is not Columbine, and if adults were talking to those kids and seeing where their heads were there's a good chance that tragedy could have been avoided. That's however is beside the point.

I'm not saying waggle your finger and let them go. I understand that kids need discipline. A suspension and a formal hearing may not seem that much to you, but that's a big deal to most kids and parents. Putting kids into the legal system destroys their lives and should be a last resort.

I'm curious what you would have recommended as punishment for whats happened then?

I'll be specific:

Three white kids hung nooses on school property.

White kid beat up a black kid.

White kid pulled a gun on 3 black kids.

Six black kids jump a white friend of one of the white noose hangers.

[chillmonster]

I'm curious what you would have recommended as punishment for whats happened then?

I'll be specific:

Three white kids hung nooses on school property.

White kid beat up a black kid.

White kid pulled a gun on 3 black kids.

Six black kids jump a white friend of one of the white noose hangers.

Everything that happend at the school should have been dealt with by the school. The person who pulled the guy wasn't a student, so he should have been charged. The kid who beat up the other kid at the party and smashed a bottle over his head should have spent a couple of nights in jail and been given comunity service.

My point is punishment is important, but when it comes to kids, teaching lessons is - with a few very rare exceptions - much, much more important.

[Gelston]

If it didn't happen on School property, the school can't do jack. I know from experience at the Bus Stop. The noose hanging kids should have been suspended. The guy that pulled the gun should have been sent to Juvenile Hall. The six black kids should have been cited, and possible locked up overnight.

[Gan]

Three white kids hung nooses on school property. - Suspended from school.

School wing burned down by unknown arsonists. - Jailtime, restitution.

White kid beat up a black kid (off campus - no weapons mentioned or listed). - assault charges (Juvie if offender under 17)

White kid pulled a gun on 3 black kids (off campus). - assault charges (aggrivated since weapon was used).

Six black kids jump a white friend of one of the white noose hangers (on campus - no weapons mentioned or listed). - assault charges since the fight resulted in the victim being hospitalized and since it involved more than 1 attacker. (Beyond a simple schoolyard fight) As well as suspension from school.

[ViridianAsp]

That it exactly what should have happened. I don't care that these were 'kids' at the age of 16 you should know the difference between right and wrong. I sure as hell did by that age, I'm sure they knew it too.

It was the fact that punishment didn't happen with the first offense in this whole series of drama, that is the reason why it went so far, these kids are just as responsible as the parents, teachers, authorities, ect.

[LazyBard]

Three white kids hung nooses on school property. - Suspended from school.

School wing burned down by unknown arsonists. - Jailtime, restitution.

White kid beat up a black kid (off campus - no weapons mentioned or listed). - assault charges (Juvie if offender under 17)

White kid pulled a gun on 3 black kids (off campus). - assault charges (aggrivated since weapon was used).

Six black kids jump a white friend of one of the white noose hangers (on campus - no weapons mentioned or listed). - assault charges since the fight resulted in the victim being hospitalized and since it involved more than 1 attacker. (Beyond a simple schoolyard fight) As well as suspension from school.

x2

[Tsa`ah]

This whole story sounds like it has a lot of holes in it and is more heresay than fact. Do I doubt this happened? No, but if I've learned anything from media is they will embellish the hell out of a story.

Umm ... where's the heresay? The story has plenty of facts ... I'm curious as to what you consider heresay.


Those kids who hung the nooses should have been charged with something if not a hate crime.

Well they were expelled ... then ...


What is worse is that where were the damn adults in this matter making sure it didn't escalate? I mean, teachers and facualty.

The adults escalated it. The escalation was at the hands of the superintendent by knocking down expulsion to a 3 day suspension. Again by the parish DA when he denied there was a race problem and "counciled" the black students on blowing the "issue" out of proportion, and then threatening their futures with the power of his pen and station (this was recorded by the court papers ... stenographer unless I'm mistaken).

The parish DA and the local police escalated it further by not charging a single white kid with anything, but charged every black kid to the fullest extent of the law.

Again, where's the heresay and where's the embellishment? Sounds to me like there's a good deal of racism going on here, from the school administration, to the local PD ... all the way up to the parish DA.

[CrystalTears]

This is not Columbine, and if adults were talking to those kids and seeing where their heads were there's a good chance that tragedy could have been avoided. That's however is beside the point.

I'm not saying waggle your finger and let them go. I understand that kids need discipline. A suspension and a formal hearing may not seem that much to you, but that's a big deal to most kids and parents. Putting kids into the legal system destroys their lives and should be a last resort.
My point is that once you get to the point of vandalism, assault and general harrassment, no amount of "talking to" and "forums" is going to suddenly rehabilitate these kids. If you don't understand the difference between right and wrong by the time you're in high school, life is going to truly suck for you and penalties shouldn't be extremely lenient just because of your age.

[ViridianAsp]

Tsa`ah's Post:

Yeah, I really don't care about your opinion on my post. The fact is I think this is overly one sided, but I do believe all involved should be punished severly.

Here in California those kids would have been slapped with a hate crime so fast it would have made their damn heads spin.

[Tsa`ah]

Tsa`ah's Post:

Yeah, I really don't care about your opinion on my post.

Well that's good, because I clearly didn't give any opinion of your post ... I asked you to clarify what was heresay and where the embellishments were.

[chillmonster]

Three white kids hung nooses on school property. - Suspended from school.

School wing burned down by unknown arsonists. - Jailtime, restitution.

White kid beat up a black kid (off campus - no weapons mentioned or listed). - assault charges (Juvie if offender under 17)

White kid pulled a gun on 3 black kids (off campus). - assault charges (aggrivated since weapon was used).

Six black kids jump a white friend of one of the white noose hangers (on campus - no weapons mentioned or listed). - assault charges since the fight resulted in the victim being hospitalized and since it involved more than 1 attacker. (Beyond a simple schoolyard fight) As well as suspension from school.

I guess this is just where we differ. I think there are seperate rules for kids and and adults should add a bit of weight the longterm consequences when contemplating how to respond to these situations.

[DeV]

White only trees and dangling nooses? Yeah, ok, I fail to see how this qualifies as a youthful prank. A noose is seen as a threat.

I'm not defending the boys involved by any means. I've read that at least 1 of the 6 boys was a trouble maker in the neighborhood. He also has a criminal record dating back. The bottom line is they should pay for their crime accordingly, but so should the punishment actually fit the crime. Had the boys been appropriately punished for hanging the nooses in the first place a lot of the aftermath could have been avoided, IMO.

[DeV]

Here in California those kids would have been slapped with a hate crime so fast it would have made their damn heads spin.Agreed.

Either slap them with a hate crime or expel them so as to not incite additional racial unrest for the remainder of the school year. The Superintendent and school board had the first opportunity to do the right thing and they failed.

[ViridianAsp]

Well that's good, because I clearly didn't give any opinion of your post ... I asked you to clarify what was heresay and where the embellishments were.


First, they weren't expelled. They were:

But Jena’s white school superintendent, Roy Breithaupt, overruled the principal, calling the display a prank. Breithaupt suspended the students for three days. After that, things got worse.

Big difference between a slap on the wrist suspention and being Expelled.

This is my favorite, one. Which I do not believe a district attorney would say:

- ened black students, saying that if they didn’t stop making a fuss about the “innocent prank, I can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I can take away your lives with a stroke of my pen.”

Walters denies making threats. Regardless, after his visit, the school was put on lockdown for the rest of the week.

[Tsa`ah]

I guess this is just where we differ. I think there are seperate rules for kids and and adults should add a bit of weight the longterm consequences when contemplating how to respond to these situations.

There comes a time when personal responsibility should kick in.

The eye opener came to me when the first kid to be tried as an adult happened to be a kid that I went to school with. He beat the crap out of an infant he was babysitting ... and was tried as an adult for murder.

Prior to that, many kids ... myself included, would do all sorts of stupid shit with the understanding that nothing could be done to "us" because we were kids.

Should 2 kids getting into a fight be charged with anything? Kids get into fights all the time and walk away afterward. When one of them has a weapon and puts the other in the hospital .. or could have potentially killed the other with said weapon ... sorry, adult court for you. This means a gun, or a broken bottle.

6 kids jumping 1 kid? There should be charges involved ... and if they're old enough to know better, in front of a judge charged as adults.

[thefarmer]

No disagreeing with him, I just think it's funny how his example states that anyone can be racist... then goes on to say that asians are racist as a blanket statement. Unless he was attempting to be funny but...

besides, everybodies a little bit racist </showtune>

Wait, you're disagreeing with me or agreeing with me? I'm confused about the first part of your sentence.

And the 'asians are all racists' was more of a joke (,though I do know racists asians). I suppose you wouldn't get that it was unless you knew I was a middle-class yellow person myself. Heh.

[Tsa`ah]

First, they weren't expelled. They were:

But Jena’s white school superintendent, Roy Breithaupt, overruled the principal, calling the display a prank. Breithaupt suspended the students for three days. After that, things got worse.

Eh, rarely do superintendents step on the toes of a schools principal unless there's a clear indication of negligence.


Black students and their parents were outraged. Three white students were quickly identified as being responsible, and the high school principal recommended that they be expelled.

That's not heresay or embellishment.


This is my favorite, one. Which I do not believe a district attorney would say:

- ened black students, saying that if they didn’t stop making a fuss about the “innocent prank, I can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I can take away your lives with a stroke of my pen.”

Well ... the court papers are calling him a liar. You quoted out of context ...


According to court papers, the white district attorney threat - ened black students, saying that if they didn’t stop making a fuss about the “innocent prank, I can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I can take away your lives with a stroke of my pen.”


Walters denies making threats. Regardless, after his visit, the school was put on lockdown for the rest of the week.

Of course he denies it ... doesn't change the fact that the court papers report him saying it.

[thefarmer]

I particularly like the fact that several students wearing something like 'Free the Jenna 6' T-shirts were made to change clothes. It seems they were disrupting the school..



Hanging a noose is a prank, but wearing T-shirts is disruptive? Nice...


(Edit: I"d pull up the article on the web, but I got it on the news portion of my Verizon phone and it's always a bitch trying to find where they got the article from)

[Blazing247]

"JENA, La. — In this small town of 3,000 in central Louisiana’s La- Salle Parish, the trouble began, nearly a year ago, with a tree.

The tree was on a side of the Jena High School campus. But in late August 2006, some of the school’s students asked school administrators if they, too, could sit in the tree’s cooling shade.

“Sit wherever you want, ” school officials told them.

The next day, three nooses, in the school’s colors, were hanging from the “tree.”

Students and their parents were outraged. Three students were quickly identified as being responsible, and the high school principal recommended that they be expelled.

But Jena’s school superintendent, Roy Breithaupt, overruled the principal, calling the display a prank. Breithaupt suspended the students for three days. After that, things got worse.

First, a series of fights between students erupted at the high school over the nooses. Then, students organized a sit-in under the tree to protest the light punishment given to the noosehanging students.

In response, Reed Walters, LaSalle Parish’s district attorney, came to Jena High to address a school assembly. According to court papers, the district attorney threat - ened students, saying that if they didn’t stop making a fuss about the “innocent prank, I can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I can take away your lives with a stroke of my pen.”

Walters denies making threats. Regardless, after his visit, the school was put on lockdown for the rest of the week.

But that wasn’t the end of it. On Nov. 30, unknown arsonists burned down the school’s central wing.

The next day, a youth beat up a student who showed up at a party. On Dec. 2, another teen pulled a shotgun on three students at a convenience store.

And on Dec. 4, a group of students at the high school jumped a student on his way out of the gym. The victim, a friend of the students who hung the nooses, was allegedly targeted because he had been taunting. He was not seriously injured and spent only a few hours in the hospital.

But Walters charged six students with attempted second-degree murder and other offenses, for which they could face a maximum of 100 years in prison if convicted...."

A crime is a crime is a crime. This is how the story should read unless you are a racist, because the law is colorblind, right? The bottom line is, these students are fucking idiots and a disgrace, regardless of their color. The kids who put the noose up should be expelled, the kid with the gun should be charged, and the kids who beat up the other kid should be charged, end of story.

[Gan]

My dad would have been like.... OK FINE! Sine ya both fightin over the tree and wont settle it, I'LL SOLVE IT FOR YOU!

<goes outside and cuts the fucking tree down and makes everyone haul off the brances and split the trunk into firewood>

HOW YA LIKE IT NOW BIATCHES!

[DeV]

If the kids were smart they would have burned down the tree instead of a part of the school building.

[Celephais]

Idiots burned part of the school.. real bright. Burning the tree would have been a better idea.


If the kids were smart they would have burned down the tree instead of a part of the school building.

Sucks to be pre-witted by Sean.

[DeV]

Sucks to be pre-witted by Sean.No it doesn't. It needed to be said twice.

I just tend to skip over A LOT of posts, which I probably won't stop doing anytime soon.

[Latrinsorm]

Chris Rock is not funny :(RACIST
the court papers are calling him a liar.According to the article, that's what the court papers say. :)

[Celephais]

No it doesn't. It needed to be said twice.

I just tend to skip over A LOT of posts, which I probably won't stop doing anytime soon.

Certainly don't blame you, especially in a thread like this... And now it's been said four times.

I just thought I'd beat Xyl to the punch, because you know he's going to gloat about how much he thinks like a lesbian.

[ElanthianSiren]

My point is that once you get to the point of vandalism, assault and general harrassment, no amount of "talking to" and "forums" is going to suddenly rehabilitate these kids. If you don't understand the difference between right and wrong by the time you're in high school, life is going to truly suck for you and penalties shouldn't be extremely lenient just because of your age.

Actually, studies by Jay Giedd of the National Institute of Mental Health have shown that specifically teenagers lack the ability to make what adults would term rational decisions with regard to right and wrong. Specifically, they are very prone to impluse and emotion, which isn't an excuse for their behavior, but it does explain the specific disregard/ignorance for/of consequences in this case. That part of the brain develops after age 18, according to those studies.

I agree with the measures that Gan posted, and I was happy to see that the attempted murder charge for another two was knocked back. DA should have his balls rapped repeatedly with a pool queue.

[Daniel]

Tsa`ah's Post:

Yeah, I really don't care about your opinion on my post. The fact is I think this is overly one sided, but I do believe all involved should be punished severly.

Here in California those kids would have been slapped with a hate crime so fast it would have made their damn heads spin.

I bet you're one of those people who thinks that there is no Racism in America and that it's all just made up by people who like to be victimized.

[Tea & Strumpets]

I bet you're one of those people who thinks that there is no Racism in America and that it's all just made up by people who like to be victimized.

Everyone knows there is racism in America. There are still entire organizations devoted to it and using it for good causes, like the NAACP.

I don't recall anyone that's said there is no such thing as racism. You'd have to have your head in the sand not to run across it regardless of where you live in the world, and regardless of your skin color.

On the other hand if someone said "I can't get ahead in life in America because I'm black", I'm sure you could find some skeptics.

[TheEschaton]

While I agree that the black kids deserve to be punished for what they did, there needs to be a recognition who the provocateurs are in this case - the white kids. Far and away. One also has to realize that the black kids didn't react until AFTER the superintendent interfered and reduced an expulsion for the white noose hangers to a 3 day suspension.

And then one has to realize on top of that, NONE of the white kids in this situation were charged with anything, and the six black kids were charged with ATTEMPTED MURDER.

Edit to add: While I don't condone it in any way, can anyone question why black youth are so disenchanted with their place in society and often act out against it?

If anyone doesn't find this absolutely ludicrous - you're an idiot. The prosecutorial abuse itself is INSANE.

-TheE-

[Daniel]

I don't recall anyone that's said there is no such thing as racism. You'd have to have your head in the sand not to run across it regardless of where you live in the world, and regardless of your skin color.



You obviously don't remember the last thread on race that you decided to jump in on.

[thefarmer]

Edit to add: While I don't condone it in any way, can anyone question why black youth are so disenchanted with their place in society and often act out against it?


-TheE-

Nope. However I do feel that it's something that many in the black community (Including many I know) are content with, rather than actively seek to rise above being a victim of the color of their skin.

An example that springs to mind (and I would find the article, but I'm lazy) is the MLK statue in ATL that is was just commissioned to be crafted by a Frenchman. Several black groups voiced their protest that one of their own wasn't picked, even though several prominent blacks had applied.

Several people were interviewed as well as members of the various protesting groups. The all felt that a black crafter was a more appropriate choice because only a black person could accurately potray MLK.

Why I find it disheartening is the fact the fact that the group that commissioned it was made up of predominately black members who chose the guy, was mainly paid for by black money, and the frenchman had stated he has several black craftsmen that were being consulted. Really, does it matter that much that the craftsman's hand's aren't black?

I won't argue that blacks aren't victimized for the color of their skin, even in todays society. But what I also feel is that if they (in general) continue to seperate themselves from society, (claiming that blacks are the only ones capable of making a proper MLK statue), there's no chance that the victimization will ever stop.

[TheEschaton]

It's absurd to think that the icon of civil rights, a concept the French invented, could not be depicted by anyone but a black person. That's just idiocy.

[Clove]

I'm curious what you would have recommended as punishment for whats happened then?

I'll be specific:

Three white kids hung nooses on school property.

White kid beat up a black kid.

White kid pulled a gun on 3 black kids.

Six black kids jump a white friend of one of the white noose hangers.

I don't know about the others, but I'd drop the charges on the six black youths, have them suspended for three days and call it even.

[Clove]

I bet you're one of those people who thinks that there is no Racism in America and that it's all just made up by people who like to be victimized.

Even though Veridian said in California they'd be "slapped with a hate crime"? doesn't sound like someone who's in denial about the existence racism in America. Luckily we have Daniel to remind us.

This may shock you, but being skeptical of the press' ability to report events objectively doesn't make you a racist. I wouldn't be suprised if events out in Louisiana are unfolding exactly as described in the article- but I also wouldn't be surprised if I discovered the media skewed facts, left out details and otherwise sensationalized the story in the interest of their circulation.

[Gan]

It's absurd to think that the icon of civil rights, a concept the French invented, could not be depicted by anyone but a black person. That's just idiocy.

I thought you knew, black people are the only people in the history of the world that have ever been oppressed or have their civil rights violated.

[Ilvane]

I'd have to say, having nooses hanging in a tree is pretty threatening.

I heard on CNN that they kid they beat so badly was at a school function the next day.

I agree the sentences should be less, for sure, if not dropped completely. There needs to be some fairness in the whole thing.

Angela

[Keller]

Chris Rock is not funny :(

You lack a sense of humor.

[Keller]

I think this episode shows there is racial harmony in America.

[Blazing247]

There will never be racial harmony in America if black people born 18 years ago keep bitching about how they were opressed 60 years ago, and white people born 18 years ago keep acting like their ignorant bastard forefathers that were born 80 years ago. Time to move on I'd say.

[Kefka]

There will never be racial harmony in America if black people born 18 years ago keep bitching about how they were opressed 60 years ago, and white people born 18 years ago keep acting like their ignorant bastard forefathers that were born 80 years ago. Time to move on I'd say.

Yes because this whole mess is about black people not learning how to let go. Every school should have a 'white' tree.

[CrystalTears]

He said white people can be fucknuts too.

[Kefka]

It's absurd to think that the icon of civil rights, a concept the French invented, could not be depicted by anyone but a black person. That's just idiocy.

MLK fought for black equality and voting rights. Is it so absurd that a black organization or blacks in general would feel more impassioned to create a statue in his name rather than a French firm who knows nothing about the struggle?

[Clove]

Yes because this whole mess is about black people not learning how to let go. Every school should have a 'white' tree.

And yet every school doesn't. You couldn't call "the white tree" representative of minority interaction in public schools in America either. Representative of inbred, ignorant, bayou rednecks mebbe.

[CrystalTears]

MLK fought for black equality and voting rights. Is it so absurd that a black organization or blacks in general would feel more impassioned to create a statue in his name rather than a French firm who knows nothing about the struggle?
Because MLK had a different face with black people than white or French people? Seriously, WTF. It wasn't a reenactment play, it's just a statue. Christ.

[Sean]

Somehow this is really all the fault of those Castro lovin' raft huggers down in Cuba.

[Gan]

And yet every school doesn't. You couldn't call "the white tree" representative of minority interaction in public schools in America either. Representative of inbred, ignorant, bayou rednecks mebbe.

Its fucking high school. You're going to have cliques that hang out in certain areas that are discriminatory based on more than just race. In my day there were areas were each group hung out, shuch as the jocks, the stoners/thugs, the kickers, and the nerds.

Ironically the two groups who were the least intolerant of race was the jocks and the nerds.

[Ilvane]

You wouldn't see a 'White tree' as something racist?

I might be misunderstanding you, so I'm asking.

Angela

[Gan]

You wouldn't see a 'White tree' as something racist?

I might be misunderstanding you, so I'm asking.

Angela

If its me you're asking the question to (quotes are your friend) then you are definately mistaking me.

[Keller]

He said white people can be fucknuts too.

The continuing racism of whites neither mititgates nor obviates the need to recognize that slavery, including the socialization of blacks into American society which occurred from 1695-1877, still impacts the black community today. No amount of "white people are racists too" will forgive not recognizing the truth.

It's reasonable to say, "what the fuck do you expect me to do about my great-great-grandfather's choice to enslave blacks and maintain their ignorance?" But it is fucking a disgrace to pretend it's not the single-most powerful force in "african-american" history is somehow "over" and no longer affects their day-to-day lives.

[Kefka]

Because MLK had a different face with black people than white or French people? Seriously, WTF. It wasn't a reenactment play, it's just a statue. Christ.

It means more for one race of people than another. It's symbolic. To say it's just a statue only means you don't understand why it's important to blacks in America.

[Latrinsorm]

Is it so absurd that a black organization or blacks in general would feel more impassioned to create a statue in his name rather than a French firm who knows nothing about the struggle?France was occupied by the Nazis not that long ago. I would be more careful about saying a French person knows "nothing" about this sort of thing in general (even assuming this guy wasn't personally under Nazi rule), but then I'm a little bit more concerned with factual accuracy than most people.

This is an aside to the idea that a passionate worker necessarily produces better work, naturally.

[Methais]

Because MLK had a different face with black people than white or French people? Seriously, WTF. It wasn't a reenactment play, it's just a statue. Christ.

Hey if a black guy can try to get the James Bond role, I don't think a white guy playing MLK in a reenactment is out of the question either.

[Methais]

You wouldn't see a 'White tree' as something racist?

I might be misunderstanding you, so I'm asking.

Angela

No more racist than a black college, a black TV channel, etc.

But because those are black, they're obviously not racist. Everyone is racist except blacks.

[CrystalTears]

It means more for one race of people than another. It's symbolic. To say it's just a statue only means you don't understand why it's important to blacks in America.
As long as the statue is a great representation of him, why should it matter the skin color of the one who produced it? That seems just as racist to me to refuse to let someone else make an icon of him because he's ONLY FOR THE BLACK PEOPLE!!

[Blazing247]

The continuing racism of whites neither mititgates nor obviates the need to recognize that slavery, including the socialization of blacks into American society which occurred from 1695-1877, still impacts the black community today. No amount of "white people are racists too" will forgive not recognizing the truth.

It's reasonable to say, "what the fuck do you expect me to do about my great-great-grandfather's choice to enslave blacks and maintain their ignorance?" But it is fucking a disgrace to pretend it's not the single-most powerful force in "african-american" history is somehow "over" and no longer affects their day-to-day lives.

Facts:

1) I'm a Caucasian.
2) My family didn't own any slaves. Not every "cracker" was a slave owner, or the great-great-grandson of a slave owner.
3) My family didn't even live in America during slavery.
4) Part of my family lived in Poland during a time when I'm willing to bet they had it much, much worse than your ancestor's, just a guess.
5) I don't owe you a fucking dime. No land, no donkey, no reparations. I owe you shit. My ancestor's owe you shit.
6) Personal accountability is more than just an idea. You are what you make yourself.
7) You were never a slave.
8) Racism is alive and well- black against white racism, and white against black racism.

I never said we should pretend slavery didn't exist. I think it was a horrible practice during a very dark period of America. Slavery wasn't exclusive to white American's, it has been practiced since recorded history by nearly every major civilization at one point or another. However, slavery is just that- history. You can look anywhere to find excuses for why things are so hard, that isn't a right exclusively held for black people. Show me something I'm doing to you, just by being white (with no slave owning ancestor's), and I'll listen. Until then, you're a fucking racist playing the "no, you're racist" card to white people who don't make amends for shit they didn't do.

[Gan]

As long as the statue is a great representation of him, why should it matter the skin color of the one who produced it? That seems just as racist to me to refuse to let someone else make an icon of him because he's ONLY FOR THE BLACK PEOPLE!!

To exclude someone from bidding on and participating in such an event based on their culture or nationality, especially in this instance is racist and hypocritical.

[Kefka]

France was occupied by the Nazis not that long ago. I would be more careful about saying a French person knows "nothing" about this sort of thing in general (even assuming this guy wasn't personally under Nazi rule), but then I'm a little bit more concerned with factual accuracy than most people.

This is an aside to the idea that a passionate worker necessarily produces better work, naturally.

I'll say it again, he fought for 'black equality and voting rights.' It's not racism to be more impassioned to do something for someone who's affected you and your people directly. Has MLK done anything for the French? So why bring them up? Association? France has been occupied for how long? Slavery in the US is over 400 years old. The Civil Rights Act hasn't reached it's golden years.

[Keller]

Facts:

1) I'm a Caucasian.
2) My family didn't own any slaves. Not every "cracker" was a slave owner, or the great-great-grandson of a slave owner.
3) My family didn't even live in America during slavery.
4) Part of my family lived in Poland during a time when I'm willing to bet they had it much, much worse than your ancestor's, just a guess.
5) I don't owe you a fucking dime. No land, no donkey, no reparations. I owe you shit. My ancestor's owe you shit.
6) Personal accountability is more than just an idea. You are what you make yourself.
7) You were never a slave.
8) Racism is alive and well- black against white racism, and white against black racism.

I never said we should pretend slavery didn't exist. I think it was a horrible practice during a very dark period of America. Slavery wasn't exclusive to white American's, it has been practiced since recorded history by nearly every major civilization at one point or another. However, slavery is just that- history. You can look anywhere to find excuses for why things are so hard, that isn't a right exclusively held for black people. Show me something I'm doing to you, just by being white (with no slave owning ancestor's), and I'll listen. Until then, you're a fucking racist playing the "no, you're racist" card to white people who don't make amends for shit they didn't do.

Ooooooookay!

First, I'm white.

Second, history is not static and when it occurs, it doesn't have a discrete impact temporaly localized at the time it occurs. Do you understand that? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just want to know that you really understand my point.

[Kefka]

As long as the statue is a great representation of him, why should it matter the skin color of the one who produced it? That seems just as racist to me to refuse to let someone else make an icon of him because he's ONLY FOR THE BLACK PEOPLE!!

Were they refused?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-08-25-mlkmemorial_N.htm?csp=34

Choice of sculptor for Martin Luther King Jr. monument draws flak

By Ben Evans, Associated Press
WASHINGTON — The selection of a Chinese sculptor to carve a three-story monument to Martin Luther King Jr. on the National Mall is raising questions about what part of his legacy should be celebrated.

King promoted peace and understanding among all people. His primary fight, however, was to win particular opportunities for blacks in the United States by juxtaposing the plight of an oppressed people against a message of freedom and democracy.

A loose-knit but growing group of critics says a black artist — or at least an American — should have been chosen to create the King memorial between the Lincoln and Jefferson memorials in the nation's capital. They have been joined by human rights advocates who say King would have abhorred the Chinese government's record on religious and civil liberty.

"They keep saying King was for everyone. I keep telling people, 'No, King wasn't for everyone. King was for fairness and justice,"' said Gilbert Young, a black painter from Atlanta who has started a website and a petition drive to try to change the project.


Hardly a racist view. King fought for his race. Yes, it opened the door for many others, but he wasn't fighting for anyone else. Haven't seen anyone refused, just difference of opinion. Haven't seen any articles concerning France nor a French firm.

[Blazing247]

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I think the only ramifications of slavery still felt today are perceived, not real. I'm too tired right now to research it, but I'd be interested to see the actual percentages of both black and white American's who can trace their direct ancestry to slavery and slave ownership. What do you consider to be impacted?

[Keller]

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I think the only ramifications of slavery still felt today are perceived, not real. I'm too tired right now to research it, but I'd be interested to see the actual percentages of both black and white American's who can trace their direct ancestry to slavery and slave ownership. What do you consider to be impacted?

The major impact is the forced ignorance. It was illegal for slaves to read. This ensured that upon "emancipation" slaves would hold only manual labor positions. Not to mention "catching up" in terms of education still hasn't occurred. Beyond the initial effects, the deemphasis of education likely (I'm not a train sociologist) lasts through today.

Another major impact is the complete lack of capital, both physical and non-physical, controlled/held by blacks in America. Couple this with the "deminishing" levels of racism/exclussion which existed post-slavery and you have a recipe for maintaining the status quo.

I'd also be interested to know the number of whites/blacks whose ancestors were slaves. I'd proffer that a majority of blacks can and a very little minority of whites can.

[Blazing247]

Those are good points, but again, I disagree. Lack of focus on education and lack of capital are traits shared by low income people of all races and are not unique to blacks. If this were a discussion about the need to strengthen education in low income area's, I would agree that it needs to be done.

Also, if you concede that a minority of whites can trace their ancestry back to slavery, then why does the notion of "the man" still exist today?

[TheEschaton]

"They keep saying King was for everyone. I keep telling people, 'No, King wasn't for everyone. King was for fairness and justice,"' said Gilbert Young, a black painter from Atlanta who has started a website and a petition drive to try to change the project.

Umm, this is retarded. King was for principles which transcended his race, despite the fact that his particular struggle was for African Americans. In fact, he drew his inspiration from Gandhi, maybe we can say MLK was a validation of Indian pacifism. He also worked in the struggle for African tribes, maybe we should say MLK was for the African tribes. This idiot's quote contradicts itself.

-TheE-

[Keller]

Also, if you concede that a minority of whites can trace their ancestry back to slavery, then why does the notion of "the man" still exist today?

Because the richest people in the country are white?

[Some Rogue]

The major impact is the forced ignorance. It was illegal for slaves to read. This ensured that upon "emancipation" slaves would hold only manual labor positions. Not to mention "catching up" in terms of education still hasn't occurred. Beyond the initial effects, the deemphasis of education likely (I'm not a train sociologist) lasts through today.


I don't agree with this point. I would think once they were free and allowed to become educated, the drive to achieve that would be even greater. I'd be more willing to believe "the deemphasis of education" as you put it, is more due to apathy and hopelessness. If all you hear all day is how you can't do that, the white man won't let you do that, etc, well eventually you may start to believe it and the whole cycle just keeps perpetuating itself. Especially if you try and don't succeed right away.

What's needed is less glorification of these idiot, thug rappers and their stupid lifestyle and more on successful, well educated people.

[Latrinsorm]

It's not racism to be more impassioned to do something for someone who's affected you and your people directly."Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Has MLK done anything for the French? So why bring them up?Because the sculptor guy in question is French.
Were they refused?We're talking about a different story (Atlanta and a French guy, not DC and a Chinese guy).

[Kefka]

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."Because the sculptor guy in question is French.We're talking about a different story (Atlanta and a French guy, not DC and a Chinese guy).

Article?

[Latrinsorm]

Couldn't find one myself. The discussion was prompted by a comment from thefarmer, I'd recommend asking him.

[Kefka]

Couldn't find one myself. The discussion was prompted by a comment from thefarmer, I'd recommend asking him.

I assumed he was mistaken unless there are two different stories with similar circumstances.

[Latrinsorm]

Wrong about the city AND nationality of the painter? And WAY wrong on both? I dunno, man.

[RichardCranium]

You wouldn't see a 'White tree' as something racist?

I might be misunderstanding you, so I'm asking.

Angela

Do you see Black Entertainment Television as racist? What about black university systems? The NAACP?

[Stanley Burrell]

That's not a fair comparison, Rich.

[Tsa`ah]

I'm genuinely curious ...

For all of the blame put on white America (even in the present) for slavery, is there equal blame and malice felt toward the central African tribes that captured neighboring tribesman/women for the long march to the coast to sell their captives to slavers?

[chillmonster]

Nope. However I do feel that it's something that many in the black community (Including many I know) are content with, rather than actively seek to rise above being a victim of the color of their skin.

An example that springs to mind (and I would find the article, but I'm lazy) is the MLK statue in ATL that is was just commissioned to be crafted by a Frenchman. Several black groups voiced their protest that one of their own wasn't picked, even though several prominent blacks had applied.

Several people were interviewed as well as members of the various protesting groups. The all felt that a black crafter was a more appropriate choice because only a black person could accurately potray MLK.

Why I find it disheartening is the fact the fact that the group that commissioned it was made up of predominately black members who chose the guy, was mainly paid for by black money, and the frenchman had stated he has several black craftsmen that were being consulted. Really, does it matter that much that the craftsman's hand's aren't black?

I won't argue that blacks aren't victimized for the color of their skin, even in todays society. But what I also feel is that if they (in general) continue to seperate themselves from society, (claiming that blacks are the only ones capable of making a proper MLK statue), there's no chance that the victimization will ever stop.

It was dumb to think that you need a black artist to do MLK justice, but there are people who say dumb things. What's the big deal?

Let me put it this way, if this were a statue of a prominent Hispanic or Asian American who was tied to their particular struggle, there would be some who would voice their opinions that they would want someone they feel is one of their own to do the depiction. If the statue of Sam Houston in Harmann Park were going up tomorrow, there would be some Texans clamoring for a Texan - I could even see prople protesting outside of city hall. (Now I think MLK is a lot more important than Sam Houston and he's an American icon not a Black American icon, but that's beside the point.)

The point is they would all be wrong, but they shouldn't be taken to represent all Asians, Hispanics, Texans, or all black Americans. My problem is the fact that people view all black people as a single entity. These people do this - so black people are like this. Al Sharpton says this - so black people think this. This black kid did this - so black kids are like this. People like things easy, and it's not in our nature to look for complexity when simplicity is so availiable. Such things, however, are rarely simple, and understanding almost never comes so easily.

That said, there are black people in America who grew up struggling for everything and protesting and marching for the most basic rights, and it's so ingrained in who they are and how they see themselves, that they'll always be looking for something to march over. It's like the ultra-cheap grandparent who grew up in during the depression. Most pblack eople feel they take themselves way too seriously, but acknowlege that they've earned the right, so we give them a pass.



Edited ot say: Oh yeah. I wanted to also apologize ot Gan for responding so late. I'll try to keep up with your schedule next time.

[chillmonster]

No more racist than a black college, a black TV channel, etc.

But because those are black, they're obviously not racist. Everyone is racist except blacks.

This is just ignorant. HBCUs aren't Black only colleges; they're Historically Black Colleges and Universities. If you look at the admissions, I gurantee EVERY white kid who applies gets in.

And BET was for people who never saw anyone like them on television. It started with a lot of shows dealing with problems concentraed in black comunities and showing music and programming that wasn't seen anywhere else. There's no anti-anyone programming and the fact that it was so succesful shows that it filled a vaccum. The channel was always about economics, and never about exclusion.

[Kefka]

I'm genuinely curious ...

For all of the blame put on white America (even in the present) for slavery, is there equal blame and malice felt toward the central African tribes that captured neighboring tribesman/women for the long march to the coast to sell their captives to slavers?


"Slavery in the rigid form which existed in Europe and throughout the New World was not practiced in Africa nor in the Islamic Orient.[citation needed] "Slavery", as it is often referred to, in African cultures was generally more like indentured servitude: "slaves" were not made to be chattel of other men, nor enslaved for life. African "slaves" were paid wages and were able to accumulate property. They often bought their own freedom and could then achieve social promotion -just as freedman in ancient Rome- some even rose to the status of kings (e.g. Jaja of Opobo and Sunni Ali Ber). Similar arguments were used by Western slave owners during the time of abolition, for example by John Wedderburn in Wedderburn v. Knight, the case that ended legal recognition of slavery in Scotland in 1776. Regardless of the legal options open to slave owners, rational cost-earning calculation and/or voluntary adoption of moral restraints often tended to mitigate (except with traders, who preferred to weed out the worthless weak individuals) the actual fate of slaves throughout history."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_slave_trade


The harshest things you hear about slavery began here in America and Europe. Unless you're referring to the trans-Saharan slave trade used in Arab-conquered countries in North Africa.


"On large plantations, slave overseers were authorized to whip and brutalize noncompliant slaves. Slave codes authorized, indemnified or even required the use of violence, and were denounced by abolitionists for their brutality. Both slaves and free blacks were regulated by the Black Codes, and had their movements monitored by slave patrols conscripted from the white population which were allowed to use summary punishment against escapees, sometimes maiming or killing them. In addition to physical abuse and murder, slaves were at constant risk of losing members of their families if their owners decided to trade them for profit, punishment, or to pay debts. A few slaves retaliated by murdering owners and overseers, burning barns, killing horses, or staging work slowdowns. [26] Stampp, without contesting Genovese's assertions concerning the violence and sexual expoitation faced by slaves, does question the appropriateness of a Marxian approach in analyzing the master-slave relationship.[27]

Genovese claims that because the slaves were the legal property of their owners, it was not unusual for enslaved black women to be raped by their owners, members of their owner's families, or their owner's friends. Children who resulted from such rapes generally were slaves as well. However, the controversial economist Robert Fogel describes the belief that slave-breeding and sexual exploitation destroyed the black family as a myth. The family was the basic unit of social organization under slavery. It was to the economic interest of planters to encourage the stability of slave families and most of them did so. Most slave sales were either of whole families or of individuals who were at an age when it would have been normal for them to have left the family."[28]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_United_States

Slave codes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_codes

Black codes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_in_the_USA

And of course:
Arguments used to justify slavery

Robert E. Lee wrote in 1856:

There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_United_States#Arguments_ used_to_justify_slavery


There's a huge difference between indentured servant and being someone's property for life along with your spouse and offspring and their offspring. Not to mention the terror and abuse and rape that came along with slavery here in the US. Not to mention the Jim Crow era that followed. Despite the anger and few reported instances of lashing out, I think the hatred up to this point has been pretty much held in.

[thefarmer]

I assumed he was mistaken unless there are two different stories with similar circumstances.

Verizon news tends to have articles that are frequently edited and corrected. The gist of the previously posted article seems similiar to the one I read, so I tend to think it was updated afterwards. I'd pull it up, but its already cycled out of the menu.

However, my point wasn't that blacks were refused, nor do I think the article mentioned that.

[thefarmer]

It was dumb to think that you need a black artist to do MLK justice, but there are people who say dumb things. What's the big deal?

Let me put it this way, if this were a statue of a prominent Hispanic or Asian American who was tied to their particular struggle, there would be some who would voice their opinions that they would want someone they feel is one of their own to do the depiction. If the statue of Sam Houston in Harmann Park were going up tomorrow, there would be some Texans clamoring for a Texan - I could even see prople protesting outside of city hall. (Now I think MLK is a lot more important than Sam Houston and he's an American icon not a Black American icon, but that's beside the point.)

The point is they would all be wrong, but they shouldn't be taken to represent all Asians, Hispanics, Texans, or all black Americans. My problem is the fact that people view all black people as a single entity. These people do this - so black people are like this. Al Sharpton says this - so black people think this. This black kid did this - so black kids are like this. People like things easy, and it's not in our nature to look for complexity when simplicity is so availiable. Such things, however, are rarely simple, and understanding almost never comes so easily.

That said, there are black people in America who grew up struggling for everything and protesting and marching for the most basic rights, and it's so ingrained in who they are and how they see themselves, that they'll always be looking for something to march over. It's like the ultra-cheap grandparent who grew up in during the depression. Most pblack eople feel they take themselves way too seriously, but acknowlege that they've earned the right, so we give them a pass.


Yes, there are people that say dumb things. Yes, they typically aren't a good representation of their particular culture/race.

You're mistaken if you think I'm taking the comments from that particular group of blacks and slapping their viewpoints on my opinion of ALL blacks.

This is what I said:

I won't argue that blacks aren't victimized for the color of their skin, even in todays society. But what I also feel is that if they (in general) continue to seperate themselves from society, (claiming that blacks are the only ones capable of making a proper MLK statue), there's no chance that the victimization will ever stop.

My point was applicable to ANY black person that felt that blacks can only understand (,relate, sculpt, have relationships, offer help, whatever) 'black things'. I didn't say that EVERY black person felt this way. Some do, some don't.

This is something you said:

Most pblack eople feel they take themselves way too seriously, but acknowlege that they've earned the right, so we give them a pass


I find it amusing that you can claim I'm generalizing an entire culture, when not only do you generalize blacks, but you lump everyone else NOT black into a fairly wrong opinion. It's wrong, mainly because I have no idea what you're trying to say, and what little I can get from that phrase, I don't agree with.

[Kefka]

Verizon news tends to have articles that are frequently edited and corrected. The gist of the previously posted article seems similiar to the one I read, so I tend to think it was updated afterwards. I'd pull it up, but its already cycled out of the menu.

However, my point wasn't that blacks were refused, nor do I think the article mentioned that.

Never said blacks were refused. The disagreement was that the guy was refused because he wasn't black. I pointed out to CT that the guy wasn't refused at all. The article posted points out another reason for the dispute which has nothing to do with race at all.

[thefarmer]

Never said blacks were refused. The disagreement was that the guy was refused because he wasn't black. I pointed out to CT that the guy wasn't refused at all. The article posted points out another reason for the dispute which has nothing to do with race at all.

Ah, I get it now. I thought your 'black refused?' was implying they were. As to the other part about China, I'm sure the same people would be protesting, even if it was a frenchman (as stupid Verizon told me it was to begin with, Heh).

[DeV]

This is just ignorant. HBCUs aren't Black only colleges; they're Historically Black Colleges and Universities. If you look at the admissions, I gurantee EVERY white kid who applies gets in.

And BET was for people who never saw anyone like them on television. It started with a lot of shows dealing with problems concentraed in black comunities and showing music and programming that wasn't seen anywhere else. There's no anti-anyone programming and the fact that it was so succesful shows that it filled a vaccum. The channel was always about economics, and never about exclusion.Thank you.

I'm honestly sick and tired of this particular argument popping up in every race thread. Seriously, get a clue (people who use this argument yet have never applied to a HBCU or who conveniently forget that there are white people who attend these colleges and universities). And then we have those who don't know the history of BET and the fact that it is targeted towards black audiences just like every other cable channel out there targeted toward a specific group. Guess what... there are Mexican channels, Arabic channels and there is even have a Gay and Lesbian targeted cable channel now.

Do you see Black Entertainment Television as racist? What about black university systems? The NAACP?Do you see Lifetime, Women's Entertainment Television, TNT, and SpikeTV as sexist? There are still private organizations, churches and schools that are all-white in this country. Historically Black Colleges and Universities were founded because blacks were not allowed to go to schools with whites. Those schools have continued to serve predominantly black students although whites are not barred from attendance, and in fact, do attend HBCUs.

There is already a White Entertainment Television network, and BET is already a player. Viacom never would have invested in BET if only 13% of the American population watched it. BET makes it's money by presenting the "hip hop" fantasy-land that a sub-culture of white adolescent males tend to enjoy right along with the black adolescent males. Then you have the WET offshoots, ABC, CBS, NBC,TNT, TBS, CNN, etc. It's called Capitalism and it's alive and well in America.

[Asha]

There's gay channels?

[TheEschaton]

In the U.S. there are.

[thefarmer]

Heh. While I do hear lots of people saying BET is racist against white, the one thing I never hear people say is 'At least BET's in English, I don't understand a word on that Univision Station!"

[Gan]

Edited ot say: Oh yeah. I wanted to also apologize ot Gan for responding so late. I'll try to keep up with your schedule next time.

:?:

You already responded to my post 2 days ago. Numbnuts.

[Tsa`ah]

...

Two tips for you ... use your own words and read the question before you answer it (preferably with your own words).

I wasn't asking for a comparison.

Slavers didn't venture into Africa to capture slaves, they sat on the coast waiting for Africans to march other captive Africans to them. This wasn't some noble venture on either part ... nor were the tribesman responsible for capturing the slaves duped.

They knew full well what selling their neighbors off meant ... their land and less resistance. These marches were hundreds of miles and in no case a picnic. Those that couldn't keep up were often tied to trees and left to die ... or just outright killed.

Now, would you like to answer the question, or post more links that have jack to do with the question.

[RichardCranium]

There is already a White Entertainment Television network, and BET is already a player. Viacom never would have invested in BET if only 13% of the American population watched it. BET makes it's money by presenting the "hip hop" fantasy-land that a sub-culture of white adolescent males tend to enjoy right along with the black adolescent males. Then you have the WET offshoots, ABC, CBS, NBC,TNT, TBS, CNN, etc. It's called Capitalism and it's alive and well in America.

Where the fuck is a White Entertainment Television channel? And how is ABC, CBS, NBC, TNT, TBS and CNN targetted towards white people?

The fact that whites enjoy BET as well as blacks has no bearing on the fact that there is a double standard in what people consider racism and it's complete bullshit.

[Tsa`ah]

Turn on nascar or the pga and stop bitching.

[Kefka]

Two tips for you ... use your own words and read the question before you answer it (preferably with your own words).

I wasn't asking for a comparison.

Slavers didn't venture into Africa to capture slaves, they sat on the coast waiting for Africans to march other captive Africans to them. This wasn't some noble venture on either part ... nor were the tribesman responsible for capturing the slaves duped.

They knew full well what selling their neighbors off meant ... their land and less resistance. These marches were hundreds of miles and in no case a picnic. Those that couldn't keep up were often tied to trees and left to die ... or just outright killed.

Now, would you like to answer the question, or post more links that have jack to do with the question.

I don't understand the point of your question. Were you there? Did you read this in some book? National Geographic? I don't condone slavery in any fashion. All slavers and any government that supports them should die. Does that answer your question? Point is I don't live in Africa, I live in the US. Should I reserve my anger for a nameless, faceless tribe in Africa that may no longer exist?

The information I provided merely displayed the source of anger among African Americans. Despite the horrible conditions you read up on, it's not close to what many have suffered here in America. So was there a point to your question? Were you attempting to, somehow, justify slavery here in America by trying to point out what happened in Africa?

[Gan]

Tiger Woods made PGA his bitch a while back. I think the founders of Augusta rolled in their collective graves, and I loved every minute of it.

And yea, unfortunately there arent any non-caucasian drivers. There are a few foreigners (from Kart and other european series) that are now on the driver's list.
http://www.nascar.com/drivers/list/cup/dps/

[Kefka]

Where the fuck is a White Entertainment Television channel? And how is ABC, CBS, NBC, TNT, TBS and CNN targetted towards white people?

The fact that whites enjoy BET as well as blacks has no bearing on the fact that there is a double standard in what people consider racism and it's complete bullshit.

:lol: You're kidding, right?

[DeV]

Where the fuck is a White Entertainment Television channel? And how is ABC, CBS, NBC, TNT, TBS and CNN targetted towards white people?How are they not tailored toward white audiences?


The fact that whites enjoy BET as well as blacks has no bearing on the fact that there is a double standard in what people consider racism and it's complete bullshit.What fucking double standard about what people consider racism and what "people" are you referring to anyway? Where's your crying about the Mexican, Gay, and even the Arabic channels for that matter? By all means, continue being a hypocrit. You consider BET racist and that is complete bullshit, IMO. It's a group of old rich white men who's pockets are getting fat off of BET anyway. Or how about this, quit airing your retarded complaints about BET with black people (in general) and instead take it up with The Man (in general) who profit off of BET.

[Gan]

Let me know when you see a white candidate for the black miss america pageant.

Yes I'm just stirring the pot.

[DeV]

Let me know when you see a white candidate for the black miss america pageant.

Yes I'm just stirring the pot.Ignorance, again.

Do you know the history of this pageant? Or why it was created in the first place? I didn't think so.

The first blacks to even appear in the Miss America Pageant came onstage as slaves in 1923. It wasn't until 1970 that a black woman made it as a contestant and it took another 14 years until a black woman actually won the pageant.

In any case we now have a:

Miss Asian America
Miss Cuban America
Miss Deaf Black America
Miss Black America
Miss Gay America
Mother/Daughter Pageant
Miss Island Pacific
Miss Chinese/ Miss Chinatown

[CrystalTears]

We have a Miss Cuban and I've just been sitting here and not entering?! All I have to do is push the rest of them out of the raft and let them swim to shore. I'll be a shoe in!

[Gan]

Ignorance, again.

Do you know the history of this pageant? Or why it was created in the first place? I didn't think so.

The first blacks to even appear in the Miss America Pageant came onstage as slaves in 1923. It wasn't until 1970 that a black woman made it as a contestant and it took another 14 years until a black woman actually won the pageant.

In any case we now have a:

Miss Asian America
Miss Cuban America
Miss Deaf Black America
Miss Black America
Miss Gay America
Mother/Daughter Pageant
Miss Island Pacific
Miss Chinese/ Miss Chinatown

So my question, and the reason why I stirred the pot a little with that comment is:

Can a non-black contestant enter the Miss Black America contest? If not, then wouldnt that be considered racist?

How about the Miss Cuban America?

And so on, and so on.

Why be exclusionary on one hand, and scream against exclusionary practices on the other?

And even counting the history of why the Miss Black America pageant was created, why continue it now when its obvious that black contestants can enter, compete, and even win in the open contests - such as the Miss America contest?

[Gan]

We have a Miss Cuban and I've just been sitting here and not entering?! All I have to do is push the rest of them out of the raft and let them swim to shore. I'll be a shoe in!

I'll vote for joo.

:love:

[DeV]

Why be exclusionary on one hand, and scream against exclusionary practices on the other?

And even counting the history of why the Miss Black America pageant was created, why continue it now when its obvious that black contestants can enter, compete, and even win in the open contests - such as the Miss America contest?What's the point of any beauty pageant really? There is none. Take for instance the Miss Asian pageant, all that is needed is at least 25% Asian ancestry. I don't consider it racist that a large number of women can't enter the pageant because they don't fit the requirements.

I have no idea if white women can enter the Miss Black America pageant, probably not, but who is stopping anyone from creating a Miss White America pageant? Someone has to fund it, create it, and there you go. Who's going to stop it? I just get tired of people who blame blacks for white-only ventures not existing, even though a shit-ton of them still do exist in this country. The blame game gets real old from blacks as well as whites.

Different cultures celebrate their diversity all the time. Though the fact remains that there will always be people on either side that consider anything non-inclusive as racist. I'll be the first to admit that that word gets thrown around way too often.


Why be exclusionary on one hand, and scream against exclusionary practices on the other? People and organizations are exclusionary all the time, regardless of the race of the individuals doing the excluding, I don't have to tell you that. Most people are also blind to their own hypocracy or unwilling to admit when they should consider the context of things instead of lumping everything into a whole it doesn't accurately fit into.

[Clove]

Ignorance, again... The first blacks to even appear in the Miss America Pageant came onstage as slaves in 1923...

I don't want to split hairs here, but I thought the 13th Amendment abolished slavery in 1865. Was there a pageant clause in it I'm unaware of?

[DeV]

I don't want to split hairs here, but I thought the 13th Amendment abolished slavery in 1865. Was their a pageant clause in it I'm unaware of?Clarification: It was a theatrical presentation and they were playing the part as slaves.

[Gan]

What's the point of any beauty pageant really? There is none. Take for instance the Miss Asian pageant, all that is needed is at least 25% Asian ancestry. I don't consider it racist that a large number of women can't enter the pageant because they don't fit the requirements.
The point lies not in its creation but in its continued existance as an exclusionary event/entity that is based solely on race or skin color. If we're to move past this then effort needs to be equal on all sides.


I have no idea if white women can enter the Miss Black America pageant, probably not, but who is stopping anyone from creating a Miss White America pageant?
By your own words, the original Miss America pageant was labled as white only in the formative years. Does this mean that by the continued existance of the Miss Black America pageant that many people of color consider the Miss America pageant still to be white only?


I just get tired of people who blame blacks for white-only ventures not existing, even though a shit-ton of them still do exist in this country. The blame game gets real old from blacks as well as whites.
I dont think I've ever heard of someone blaming blacks for white-only ventures. It may be a matter of my perception though.


Different cultures celebrate their diversity all the time. Though the fact remains that there will always be people on either side that consider anything non-inclusive as racist. I'll be the first to admit that that word gets thrown around way too often.
This is the nut in the shell. We as a soceity need to understand and practice that its ok to celebrate diversity and culture and that its NOT OK to use that same celebration as a crutch for screaming racisim. Its completely hypocritical to rail against exclusive entities (race based) and yet support those that favor your own race. They are events of the same kindred - either you allow them to exist and deal with it, or you disallow them and deal with it. You cant have both and be considered credible.


Most people are also blind to their own hypocracy or unwilling to admit when they should consider the context of things instead of lumping everything into a whole it doesn't accurately fit into.
Lumping or not, Res Ipsa Loquitur.

Accepting the very thing your trying to abolish is as hypocritical as you can get.

[Keller]

LOL @ the idiot who tried to argue HBCUs are racist.

If there is anything remotely "racist" about them it's the historical reminder that they were predicated on the existence of exclussively white colleges.

[Blazing247]

DeV, I think the point being made here is that exclusionary practices are considered racist when it is a white organization, and "necessary" when it is a black organization, even though it stopped being necessary 40 years ago. Or to get off race for a second, an organization that is male only is sexist, but a female only organization is also necessary.

I think many people have just had enough with the double standards. What was necessary in the 40's and 50's is not necessary today. Nobody is keeping anyone down except themselves.

[Keller]

I think many white males have just had enough with the double standards.

Agreed.

[Gan]

LOL @ the idiot who tried to argue HBCUs are racist.

If there is anything remotely "racist" about them it's the historical reminder that they were predicated on the existence of exclussively white colleges.

A co-worker of mine just graduated from TSU (http://www.tsu.edu/)(he's white). He attended for 5 years under a 'minority' scholarship and graduated with a business degree.

I definately dont consider HBCUs as racist simply because a) they arent exclusive in their application and b) their name isnt perceived as being exclusive (another barrier to entry). They are what they are, a college or university.

[Latrinsorm]

And even counting the history of why the Miss Black America pageant was created, why continue it now when its obvious that black contestants can enter, compete, and even win in the open contests - such as the Miss America contest?The same reason we still have the Negro Leagues for baseball players.

"The MBA Pageant has always provided a stage on which the Black woman could display her talent." "The opinion of the Miss Black America Pageant is that Black is the most beautiful entity any human being with dark skin can be in America." From the MBA website. Something telllllls me that white-skinned folks would probably not make the cut.

[Blazing247]

Agreed.


Keller, there you go again inserting WHITEY everywhere it doesn't belong, like in my quotes. Are you sure you aren't chomping down on some fried chicken right now? :-J

[Satira]

Turn on nascar or the pga and stop bitching.

HAHAHAHA ROFL ROFL. Awesomely true.

[DeV]

The point lies not in its creation but in its continued existance as an exclusionary event/entity that is based solely on race or skin color. If we're to move past this then effort needs to be equal on all sides.So because Miss America finally started showing ethic faces in their pageant the blood, sweet, and tears put into creating alternate pageants to celebrate diversity that a majority of white Americans didn't want to see prior should be out right abandoned? It's been admitted as much that racism is still alive and well in this country so perhaps they feel this is not the time to dismantle something seen as positive by many.

With the passage of time the focus shifts from being created to challenge racial diversity to encouraging success amongst a particular racial makeup of women. It would take someone, prefereably a white woman, stepping up and challenging the pageantry system AS A WHOLE. That means testing the waters with all the pageants I listed below. My guess is they haven't done it because they are simply not interested in competing in a Miss Black America pageant or a Miss Cuban America pageant or challenging something they don't necessarily feel is racist in the first place. Discriminatory, yes, but racist? Far from it. You're the one attaching negative connotations to its continued existence and the recent existences of most of the other pageants I listed below. If women want to celebrate their diversity and extended culture why should that be stopped? More to note, these are private organizations not using a penny of your money to fund and sponsor their events. Why don't you have a problem with the fact that men are barred from these competitions?


Does this mean that by the continued existance of the Miss Black America pageant that many people of color consider the Miss America pageant still to be white only? I'm not many people of color, I happen to have one viewpoint on this matter. I already stated that I wouldn't have a problem with a Miss White America contest, so alternately, I hardly find fault with the Asian, Cuban, Black, and Gay pageants.



This is the nut in the shell. We as a soceity need to understand and practice that its ok to celebrate diversity and culture and that its NOT OK to use that same celebration as a crutch for screaming racisim.I believe that as a society we need to stop constantly viewing things in general regard and start understanding the complexities that makes things what they are and embrace difference, embrace diversity, and allow people to celebrate in a manner that is positive, legal, and does not create fear and unrest amongst other groups.


Its completely hypocritical to rail against exclusive entities (race based) and yet support those that favor your own race. It certainly is.
They are events of the same kindred - either you allow them to exist and deal with it, or you disallow them and deal with it. You cant have both and be considered credible.This is looking at the world through black and white specticles I'm afraid and does little to actually promote change or deal with reality. The gray area is massive! Again, These are private organizations not founded with the idea of promoting racism or inequality even though both are still alive and well in this country.

Beauty pageants also discriminate against not so attractive women; where's their advocate for justice and equality?

[Latrinsorm]

It's been admitted as much that racism is still alive and well in this country so perhaps they feel this is not the time to dismantle something seen as positive by many.Just because it's seen as positive and has a positive impact doesn't mean it's not racist.
If women want to celebrate their diversity and extended culture why should that be stopped?Being segregated is not a necessary condition for celebrating diversity.
allow people to celebrate in a manner that is positive, legal, and does not create fear and unrest amongst other groups.It pretty obviously creates unrest in at least some members of other groups.
Beauty pageants also discriminate against not so attractive women; where's their advocate for justice and equality?This is an odd tack to take.

[DeV]

I think many people have just had enough with the double standards. What was necessary in the 40's and 50's is not necessary today. Nobody is keeping anyone down except themselves.Alternately, I've had enough of the QQ'ing from both ends.

Also, how is having a Miss Black or Miss Gay America pageant keeping anyone down? You, personally, couldn't enter a Miss America pageant if you wanted. Discrimination, yes. It's hardly racist.

[DeV]

Just because it's seen as positive and has a positive impact doesn't mean it's not racist.Are you referring to all beauty pageants or just the black ones?


Being segregated is not a necessary condition for celebrating diversity.I certainly didn't indicate that it was necessary, but thanks for bringing up a point we can both agree with.


It pretty obviously creates unrest in at least some members of other groups.This is an odd tack to take.The only people I see complaining so far are white males.

[CrystalTears]

Screw discrimination. Bring back drop dead gorgeous, 5'7"+ stewardesses!

[Methais]

Turn on nascar or the pga and stop bitching.

http://www.africanamericans.com/images2/TigerWoods.jpg


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a162/DoyleHargraves/BlackPower.jpg

I disagree.


DeV, I think the point being made here is that exclusionary practices are considered racist when it is a white organization, and "necessary" when it is a black organization, even though it stopped being necessary 40 years ago. Or to get off race for a second, an organization that is male only is sexist, but a female only organization is also necessary.

I think many people have just had enough with the double standards. What was necessary in the 40's and 50's is not necessary today. Nobody is keeping anyone down except themselves.


:yeahthat:

Here's some shit I read a while back, which I'm obviously racist for agreeing with.


How many are actually paying attention to this? There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, Native Americans, etc. And then there are just Americans.

You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction. You Call me "White boy," "Cracker," "Honkey," "Whitey," Caveman" ..And that's OK.
But when I call you, Nig..., Kike, Towel head, Sand-nig..., Camel Jockey, Beaner, Gook, or Chink...

You call me a racist.

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you, so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?
You have the United Negro College Fund.
You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Black History Month.
You have Cesar Chavez Day.
You Have Yom Hashoah
You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi
You have the NAACP.
You have BET.

If we had WET (White Entertainment Television). We'd be racists.
If we had a White Pride Day ..You would call us racists. If we had White History Month
We'd be racists. If we had any organization for only whites to "advance" OUR lives

We'd be racists.

We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, And then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that? If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships ... You know we'd be racists.
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US. Yet if there were "White colleges" ..
THAT would be a racist college. In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights.
If we marched for our race and rights.

You would call us racists.

You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're Not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride ..

You call us racists.

You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug-dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society.

You call him a racist.

I am proud. But, you call me a racist. Why is it that only whites can be racists?



FOR THE (WHITE) HORDE!!!!!11

[Gan]

So because Miss America finally started showing ethic faces in their pageant the blood, sweet, and tears put into creating alternate pageants to celebrate diversity that a majority of white Americans didn't want to see prior should be out right abandoned? It's been admitted as much that racism is still alive and well in this country so perhaps they feel this is not the time to dismantle something seen as positive by many.
Perhaps its time to dismantle any and all entities that are exclusionary based on race, creed, religion, natural origin, color, etc. Thats one of the points I'm trying to illustrate. Denying that they exist or overlooking some but highlighting others is simply hypocrisy.


With the passage of time the focus shifts from being created to challenge racial diversity to encouraging success amongst a particular racial makeup of women. It would take someone, prefereably a white woman, stepping up and challenging the pageantry system AS A WHOLE. That means testing the waters with all the pageants I listed below. My guess is they haven't done it because they are simply not interested in competing in a Miss Black America pageant or a Miss Cuban America pageant or challenging something they don't necessarily feel is racist in the first place. How many contestants and entrants have been scared off simply because of the name? How many white applicants for the MBA pageant have applied and been refused? Good questions I dont have the answers to.


Discriminatory, yes, but racist? Far from it. So discrimination based on color isnt racist? You're kidding right?


You're the one attaching negative connotations to its continued existence and the recent existences of most of the other pageants I listed below. If women want to celebrate their diversity and extended culture why should that be stopped? More to note, these are private organizations not using a penny of your money to fund and sponsor their events. Why don't you have a problem with the fact that men are barred from these competitions? I"m using them to illustrate a symptom of a larger and deeper problem. That racisim is alive and well on all sides of the fence and supported by the very same people advocating abolition of such practices.


I'm not many people of color, I happen to have one viewpoint on this matter. I already stated that I wouldn't have a problem with a Miss White America contest, so alternately, I hardly find fault with the Asian, Cuban, Black, and Gay pageants. I"m not picking on you specifically. I'm merely quoting you because you seem to be the most voiciferous in defending the point we're discussing.


I believe that as a society we need to stop constantly viewing things in general regard and start understanding the complexities that makes things what they are and embrace difference, embrace diversity, and allow people to celebrate in a manner that is positive, legal, and does not create fear and unrest amongst other groups. How is looking at the real meaning behind why some of these things (entities) exist not complex?


This is looking at the world through black and white specticles I'm afraid and does little to actually promote change or deal with reality.
Much the same as allowing the existance of these things to continue, especially if no one attempts to alter the perception or meaning behind them.


Again, These are private organizations not founded with the idea of promoting racism or inequality even though both are still alive and well in this country. So its OK to have a private organization that is racist or exclusionary?


Beauty pageants also discriminate against not so attractive women; where's their advocate for justice and equality? I think all beauty pageants are retarded. Period.



Also, how is having a Miss Black or Miss Gay America pageant keeping anyone down? You, personally, couldn't enter a Miss America pageant if you wanted. Discrimination, yes. It's hardly racist.
Its not keeping me down personally. If anything its keeping the movement to ablolish racism, the efforts of racial equality, and other civil rights movements and practices down by its existence. If people want a level playing field, then the field truly needs to be level.

[Blazing247]

The obvious retort to that Methais, is that anything not specifically labeled "minority x" is the "white" version. Black people only watch BET, the other 599 channels are WET. Black people have black history month, the other 11 months are white history. I'm being tongue in cheek of course and not serious, but it's funny because some people use that as a reason...the only thing on that list that really bothers me and strikes me as an outdated throwback is the NAACP, an organization founded by white and black people alike that has grown into a very KKKish monstrosity in the modern day.

[Gan]

The only people I see complaining so far are white males.
Yes, its an angry white man conspiracy. /sarcasm

You're either part of the solution or part of the problem. With statements like that, I'd like to congratulate you on being part of the latter.

[RichardCranium]

How are they not tailored toward white audiences?
What fucking double standard about what people consider racism and what "people" are you referring to anyway? Where's your crying about the Mexican, Gay, and even the Arabic channels for that matter? By all means, continue being a hypocrit. You consider BET racist and that is complete bullshit, IMO. It's a group of old rich white men who's pockets are getting fat off of BET anyway. Or how about this, quit airing your retarded complaints about BET with black people (in general) and instead take it up with The Man (in general) who profit off of BET.

My point was not that BET was racist. It was that BET and black universities are not.

The double standard I referred to is my opinion that if there were ever a White Entertainment Television is would be sued, marched on and protested against. But because blacks are minorities and were once upon a time oppressed it is allowable.

[RichardCranium]

LOL @ the idiot who tried to argue HBCUs are racist.

If there is anything remotely "racist" about them it's the historical reminder that they were predicated on the existence of exclussively white colleges.

LOL @ your fucking reading comprehension.

[Blazing247]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6477556933269994561&q=kamau+kambon&total=32&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

[Sean]

Originally Posted by RichardCranium
The double standard I referred to is my opinion that if there were ever a White Entertainment Television is would be sued, marched on and protested against. But because blacks are minorities and were once upon a time oppressed it is allowable.

So your gripe is really just over the name of the network?

[Gan]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6477556933269994561&q=kamau+kambon&total=32&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

"We have to exterminate white people off of the face of the planet".

What a fucking idiot.

[DeV]

Thats one of the points I'm trying to illustrate. Denying that they exist or overlooking some but highlighting others is simply hypocrisy.Except you're talking to a person who doesn't have a problem with groups or entities who are exclusive based on race as long as they do not promote racism, which I define as someone who believes that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of one particular race over all others. From what it sounds like you are okay with sexism, but not okay with racism. I take it you also don't see this as hypocritical.


So discrimination based on color isnt racist? You're kidding right?I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that these organizations are racist. Racism has many different definitions, but I'm hoping it boils down to a game of semantics where you feel their exclusionary policies create a aire of institutional racism, which has a history of white male dominance. I don't believe these particular pagaent founders had racism in mind when creating them, but that's personal opinion.

Their policies are discrimnatory in who they allow into the contest, but what examples do you have that bring to light the policies are a result of intolerance and inflammatory feelings toward other races. There are many organizations, sororities, fraternities, and political organizations that are discriminatory. Not based entirely on race mind you, but discriminatory nonetheless.


I"m not picking on you specifically. I'm merely quoting you because you seem to be the most voiciferous in defending the point we're discussing.Yeah, I don't feel picked on and I welcome the exchange. In seeing others be voiciferous in their assertion of why HBCU's, Diverse TV channels, and Ethnic Beauty Pagaents are all racist it doesn't hurt to have a dissenting voice.


How is looking at the real meaning behind why some of these things (entities) exist not complex? How about we look at the real meaning behind why racism is still alive and well in America? The entities we are discussing at the moment will not help us address why this is still a facet in our society. You said yourself that you find the pagaeants to be retarded, period, so I fail to see why you choose to address beaty pagaents when it comes to racism, instead of just addressing racism head on.


Much the same as allowing the existance of these things to continue, especially if no one attempts to alter the perception or meaning behind them.Allowing them to continue? Lol, as I said before this is private money from private citizens hosting an event they believe to be positive for women of all races. We can give our opinion on the matter, but they aren't breaking the law.


So its OK to have a private organization that is racist or exclusionary?Oh, you mean like the Boy Scouts of America, or any number of corporate organizations that are exclusive to the white male elite except they are kept private. Ummm, right.

This is a wonderful example of the majority leading by example.

[Gan]

Except you're talking to a person who doesn't have a problem with groups or entities who are exclusive based on race as long as they do not promote racism, which I define as someone who believes that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of one particular race over all others. From what it sounds like you are okay with sexism, but not okay with racism. I take it you also don't see this as hypocritical.
I view any kind of descrimination is bad. Be it sexist, racist, or otherwise. I define racism as the EXCLUSION of any person or group of people based upon a certain trait or characteristic, period. My only exception to this is with regards to age and youth. There are some things that youth (children) should not participate in until they are physically and mentally developed enough to do so.


I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that these organizations are racist. Racism has many different definitions, but I'm hoping it boils down to a game of semantics where you feel their exclusionary policies create a aire of institutional racism, which has a history of white male dominance. I don't believe these particular pagaent founders had racism in mind when creating them, but that's personal opinion. The litmus test is if a person can apply and particpate in said activity. If they cant, then its discriminatory. Again, you're falling back on history. Use the litmus test and if it applies, fix it.


Their policies are discrimnatory in who they allow into the contest, but what examples do you have that bring to light the policies are a result of intolerance and inflammatory feelings toward other races. There are many organizations, sororities, fraternities, and political organizations that are discriminatory. Not based entirely on race mind you, but discriminatory nonetheless. Again, bottom line is that if it prevents someone from applying or particpating based on their race, creed, culture, religion, natural origin, age, sex, etc. Then it needs to be fixed. Using the excuse that others do it so its ok to continue is not logical if a solution is truly what people are seeking to the problem of discrimination, especially with regards to race.


Yeah, I don't feel picked on and I welcome the exchange. In seeing others be voiciferous in their assertion of why HBCU's, Diverse TV channels, and Ethnic Beauty Pagaents are all racist it doesn't hurt to have a dissenting voice. Excellent.


How about we look at the real meaning behind why racism is still alive and well in America? The entities we are discussing at the moment will not help us address why this is still a facet in our society. You said yourself that you find the pagaeants to be retarded, period, so I fail to see why you choose to address beaty pagaents when it comes to racism, instead of just addressing racism head on. Because the pageants demonstrate a symptom of the problem. The symptom being that its acceptable to have discrimination in some forms, but not acceptable in other forms. No matter how you spin it, having a black only beauty pageant is discriminatory and or racist. Having public figures support and endorse said events who are on record of speaking out against discrimination and racisim is just compounding the problem (hypocrisy and the acceptance of some forms of racism while faulting others). If something is identified as discriminatory as defined by race, creed, etc... then fix it. Dont find excuses for it to exist. Especially historical excuses.


Allowing them to continue? Lol, as I said before this is private money from private citizens hosting an event they believe to be positive for women of all races. We can give our opinion on the matter, but they aren't breaking the law. How can a black woman only beauty pageant be positive for women of all races? Private money or no, legal or no (slavery was legal once upon a time too) that doesnt make it right.


Oh, you mean like the Boy Scouts of America, or any number of corporate organizations that are exclusive to the white male elite except they are kept private. Ummm, right. If you can identify BSA as being discriminatory and exclusionary in who and how it accepts members then it needs to either change or be abolished. Somehow I dont see that a policy of exclusion exist in today's BSA, I could be wrong though. If you're talking historically, that does no good in fixing the problems that exist today, thats just finding excuses and justification for it to continue.

[Latrinsorm]

Are you referring to all beauty pageants or just the black ones?I'm referring to a general case.
I certainly didn't indicate that it was necessaryIf it's unnecessary, then terminating the Miss Black America pageant does not qualitatively infringe upon black women's ability to "celebrate their diversity and extended culture", making that question wholly inflammatory.
The only people I see complaining so far are white males.White males are certainly a group. :)

[thefarmer]

My 2 cents.

If there actually was a WET (White Entertainment Television) channel, I'm sure there would be several groups in protest.

Why?

I think the reasoning behind their protest would be that it's much harder for minorities to form a cable channel that caters to them, while most of television has (with a few recent exceptions like BET, etc) been created to cater to the majority race/culture (whites), a practice that still occurs today.

I'm not arguing that their reasoning is right or wrong. I'm just pointing out what one of my (black) friends said in a debate this past summer. Oddly enough we were talking about how cable TV sucks in general, and the subject of 'white' and 'black channels somehow came into the conversation.

Edit: He did go on to say that he wouldn't give a shit if they formed a WET channel because 'it'd just be another crap station on cable anyway'.. Which I thought was funny.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Latrinsorm
If it's unnecessary, then terminating the Miss Black America pageant does not qualitatively infringe upon black women's ability to "celebrate their diversity and extended culture", making that question wholly inflammatory.

I'd venture to guess that the past winners and participants might disagree with you.

[Latrinsorm]

Only if they misunderstood the distinction between quantitative and qualitative.

[DeV]

No matter how you spin it, having a black only beauty pageant is discriminatory and or racist.


How can a black woman only beauty pageant be positive for women of all races?
Notice how after telling you what specific pageant had a ethnic requirement in their policy you continued to focus on the black only beauty pageant. Your focus is quite unfortunate.

I imagine your reply will have something to do with you proclaiming that you meant your opinions to reflect every pageant I listed.

This is me completely agreeing to disagree with you.

[DeV]

If it's unnecessary, then terminating the Miss Black America pageant does not qualitatively infringe upon black women's ability to "celebrate their diversity and extended culture", making that question wholly inflammatory.Interesting. So in essence you want them to celebrate their diversity and extended culture in a manner which you dictate to be good and wholesome. Good to know.

[Celephais]

I like turtles.

[Gan]

Notice how after telling you what specific pageant had a ethnic requirement in their policy you continued to focus on the black only beauty pageant. Your focus is quite unfortunate.
Thats because we're discussing the BMA, why wouldnt I talk about it [THIS IS THE FOCUS POINT OUTLINGING A SYMPTOM THAT I DESCRIBED IN AN EARLIER POST]. This is you dodging the question. Now it seems you're trying to divert and say I'm obsessed with the BMA only, when I'm merely focusing on that because a) it was brought up in the original point b) it fits within the paradigm of this thread about racisim against black people.


I imagine your reply will have something to do with you proclaiming that you meant your opinions to reflect every pageant I listed.

This is me completely agreeing to disagree with you. My focus from the start has been on the BMA, again, your dodging.

Address the points specifically if you wish to continue.

[Keller]

Keller, there you go again inserting WHITEY everywhere it doesn't belong, like in my quotes. Are you sure you aren't chomping down on some fried chicken right now? :-J


I refer you to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ4B7G8Rw3Q.

[Tsa`ah]

There probably isn't a scholarship, loan, or grant out there that isn't discriminatory in some way ... even on the federal level.

To argue against a black pageant, scholarship, or anything that's exclusively "black" is pretty pointless.

[Blazing247]

Ahaha, I love Chappelle. Good shit.

[Gan]

To argue against a black pageant, scholarship, or anything that's exclusively "black" is pretty pointless.

Why?

[DeV]

Address the points specifically if you wish to continue.Lol, obviously I don't want to continue the debate.

It is pointless, which is why I said I agree to disagree.

[Tsa`ah]

Why?

Why? Well for one you're focusing on a single qualifier. You're not arguing against other pageants are you?

Are you arguing against scholarships and for left handed? What about arguing against PEL grants and federal loans because women automatically qualify just because they're women?

You're focusing on one race, or one qualifier in a field of discriminatory abundance.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Gan
How can a black woman only beauty pageant be positive for women of all races?

It's not so much that a black only pageant is a positive for women of all races its the template that it creates. It you're looking for the next Oprah (a former Miss Black America contestant) are you more likely to watch Miss America or Black Miss America? If you're Chinese and looking for another avenue to represent your culture are you more likely to enter Miss America or Miss Chinese International?

I'll agree that all beauty pageants are stupid and all the major ones are discriminatory. I just don't agree that it's always a bad thing.

[Gan]

Why? Well for one you're focusing on a single qualifier. You're not arguing against other pageants are you?
I chose one out of a list to focus on, does that mean I support the others by omission? No, that means I'm choosing to discuss one of many many many forms of discrimination evident in America. Does that mean that the many many many forms I did not include in my little post say that I support all the others? No. I'm firmly on record for saying that any event (or entity) that discriminates based on race, creed, color, natural origin, etc. (except for age when it comes to youth) is a bad thing. Period. Its not that difficult to follow the train of thought if you have read the posts in this thread to this point.


Are you arguing against scholarships and for left handed? Of course I am. On what merit and societal benefit does that scholarship have?


What about arguing against PEL grants and federal loans because women automatically qualify just because they're women? If and only if only women are allowed to apply and only women are accepted. Since thats not the case, you need to find another example.


You're focusing on one race, or one qualifier in a field of discriminatory abundance. Of course I am, because the topic in this thread presented that opportunity. Again, just because not ALL discrimination examples are given as points of argument here (it would take years to get it all typed out) doesnt mean they lack merit to discuss nor does it mean that I am accepting of their existence. It just means, that for the purposes of discussion, I'm focusing on the BMA because it follows the train of thought in this particular thread.

[Tsa`ah]

If and only if only women are allowed to apply and only women are accepted. Since thats not the case, you need to find another example.

No, that's a valid example. Women are not required to register for selective service ... thus gender factors into this. It is discriminatory.


Of course I am, because the topic in this thread presented that opportunity. Again, just because not ALL discrimination examples are given as points of argument here (it would take years to get it all typed out) doesnt mean they lack merit to discuss nor does it mean that I am accepting of their existence. It just means, that for the purposes of discussion, I'm focusing on the BMA because it follows the train of thought in this particular thread.

Just seems like a bit too much energy put into one qualifier.

[Methais]

There probably isn't a scholarship, loan, or grant out there that isn't discriminatory in some way ... even on the federal level.

To argue against a black pageant, scholarship, or anything that's exclusively "black" is pretty pointless.

Scholarships are discriminatory against dumb and non-athletic people.

[Gan]

It's not so much that a black only pageant is a positive for women of all races its the template that it creates. It you're looking for the next Oprah (a former Miss Black America contestant) are you more likely to watch Miss America or Black Miss America? If you're Chinese and looking for another avenue to represent your culture are you more likely to enter Miss America or Miss Chinese International?
I dont have a problem if the event is non-exclusory. Now a thousand years from now, when ideally racism is no longer a societal malady then sure, but if our culture is get over the road bump that still exists from post-slavery discrimination then I dont see how you can have both exist and have it acceptable by everyone. Thats just my thoughts on it.


I'll agree that all beauty pageants are stupid and all the major ones are discriminatory. I just don't agree that it's always a bad thing.
The bigger crime is what these pageants do to young girls. However, thats another topic, for another thread.

[Kefka]

Thats because we're discussing the BMA, why wouldnt I talk about it [THIS IS THE FOCUS POINT OUTLINGING A SYMPTOM THAT I DESCRIBED IN AN EARLIER POST]. This is you dodging the question. Now it seems you're trying to divert and say I'm obsessed with the BMA only, when I'm merely focusing on that because a) it was brought up in the original point b) it fits within the paradigm of this thread about racisim against black people.
My focus from the start has been on the BMA, again, your dodging.

Answer the question if you want to continue.

So you're suggesting the removal of a business that's almost 40 years old? Would you shut down your business to promote someone else's business? You have a degree in economics and only see race in businesses like MBA and BET? Or are you merely playing devil's advocate?

[Gan]

No, that's a valid example. Women are not required to register for selective service ... thus gender factors into this. It is discriminatory.
You switched criteria on me. My answer was for women and pell grants. Your selective service example is reaching, and lacking. :(

[Daniel]

:



Why be exclusionary on one hand, and scream against exclusionary practices on the other?

Because it is based on the historical belief that white people are inherently better than other people and the very real manifestations of that belief, whereas other is a counter to the damages wrecked by those beliefs.

[Tsa`ah]

You switched criteria on me. My answer was for women and pell grants. Your selective service example is reaching, and lacking. :(

I switched nothing, and explain how it's "reaching" and "lacking".

You're telling me it's not discriminatory for women to get a "free" out card from selective service and a potential draft, yet still be eligible for all of the benefits provided by the fed ... yet it's ok to require men to register and then withhold federal assistance from them if they don't?

I don't know what planet you're from, but that's what we call discriminatory.

[Gan]

So you're suggesting the removal of a business that's almost 40 years old? Would you shut down your business to promote someone else's business? You have a degree in economics and only see race in businesses like MBA and BET? Or are you merely playing devil's advocate?

Yes I'm playing devil's advocate in pushing this concept as far as I've pushed it.

Furthermore, I dont see any need to shut anything down, just change the rules by which the business operates to be non-exclusory. Its that simple.

If the business cant change to that premise, then yes, it needs to go.

[Gan]

I switched nothing, and explain how it's "reaching" and "lacking".

You're telling me it's not discriminatory for women to get a "free" out card from selective service and a potential draft, yet still be eligible for all of the benefits provided by the fed ... yet it's ok to require men to register and then withhold federal assistance from them if they don't?

I don't know what planet you're from, but that's what we call discriminatory.

Allright, with clarification I agree with you. Its not reaching nor lacking. And it should be changed to be non discriminating.

[Gan]

Because it is based on the historical belief that white people are inherently better than other people and the very real manifestations of that belief, whereas other is a counter to the damages wrecked by those beliefs.
Who's belief. Thats not my belief. Is that a religious belief? Like cain and able? What about people of color who believe in the same bible that demonstrates that? Or is that just a matter of interpretation and application?

And how does continuing the practice of discrimination based on the principal of reparation or attonement justify continuing the practice of being discriminatory?

Bottom line, its bad and you shouldnt do it. No excuse necessary, nor allowed.

This is like saying its ok for people of color to call each other nigger but when someone not of color says it, its racist.

You cant do both and be credible. You cant do both and yet stand for equality and against inequality, and have that accepted by the general populace as a whole. Especially when you use two definitions to justify its use.

Its just stupid.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Gan
I dont have a problem if the event is non-exclusory. Now a thousand years from now, when ideally racism is no longer a societal malady then sure, but if our culture is get over the road bump that still exists from post-slavery discrimination then I dont see how you can have both exist and have it acceptable by everyone. Thats just my thoughts on it.

Thats a pretty Backlashian or TheE like Utopian society.

Stepping outside of race but staying with the discrimination theme here an example of why i don't have a major issue with exclusory practices as long as the goal is something positive:

I grew up in a single parent household. Now lets say I grow old and in the process I make some Bill Gates money. Realizing I have more than myself or my family will ever need I set up a charity that helps single parent families financially. Just because the charity discriminated against two parent families doesn't mean I begrudge them anything it just means I personally can identify with the pitfalls of a single parent household and feel I can make a better impact that way. Is it discriminatory? Of course but it also helps people.

In the same way I'd like to believe that Black Miss America (and I could be wrong) is no longer the same fuck Whitey organization that it was back when Miss America was for white women only. But instead its an organization/business that has a closer bond to "black" culture and gives black women a better chance to showcase themselves to individuals who may better understand them. Is it discriminatory? Yes, but maybe it's also helping these women.

[Blazing247]

Because it is based on the historical belief that white people are inherently better than other people and the very real manifestations of that belief, whereas other is a counter to the damages wrecked by those beliefs.


DeV, I think the point being made here is that exclusionary practices are considered racist when it is a white organization, and "necessary" when it is a black organization, even though it stopped being necessary 40 years ago.

Hmmm...

[Gan]

Thats a pretty Backlashian or TheE like Utopian society.
lol, yes it is. I used a thousand years because if we're all still on this planet by then, I'm imagining the race issue will be so intermingled that people will have to look harder to find differences in which to be judgemental or to discriminate with.


Stepping outside of race but staying with the discrimination theme here an example of why i don't have a major issue with exclusory practices as long as the goal is something positive:

I grew up in a single parent household. Now lets say I grow old and in the process I make some Bill Gates money. Realizing I have more than myself or my family will ever need I set up a charity that helps single parent families financially. Just because the charity discriminated against two parent families doesn't mean I begrudge them anything it just means I personally can identify with the pitfalls of a single parent household and feel I can make a better impact that way. Is it discriminatory? Of course but it also helps people.

In the same way I'd like to believe that Black Miss America (and I could be wrong) is no longer the same fuck Whitey organization that it was back when Miss America was for white women only. But instead its an organization/business that has a closer bond to "black" culture and gives black women a better chance to showcase themselves to individuals who may better understand them. Is it discriminatory? Yes, but maybe it's also helping these women.
I'm going to start a bank. I'm only going to make special loans to people with blue eyes, no loans for any other type of person. Yes it will be discriminatory against all brown and green eyed people, and for them life will continue to suck. But it will help all the blue eyed people.

Can you sleep at night with that?

(yes, I'm having fun with this discussion)

[Daniel]

Who's belief. Thats not my belief. Is that a religious belief? Like cain and able? What about people of color who believe in the same bible that demonstrates that? Or is that just a matter of interpretation and application?


The belief of the predominate amount of white people in America at some point in time. I don't presume to tell you what you belief and I say this as someone who has a white parent. However, you can not sit here and deny the racial inequality that still exists in society today. Is it the same as above? Of course not, but as this case amply illustrates, it certainly still exists.

If you wish to take pride in your "whiteness" I encourage you to do so. My grandmother does geneology on her spare time and takes great pride in her German-Russian Heritage. She is a member of several German, Russian "appreciation" societies and a contributing member to most.

However, you have to recognize the differences between that and the creation of something that is "for" whites. The reason that a WET or any other white selective organization or entity in America is fundamentally different than any minority entity is because white society as a whole, regardless of how you feel about it, has a legacy of brutally oppressing other races to elevate theirs.

Similar organizations have existed with the express purpose of *excluding* other races from their privledges. Which is as you have mentioned abhorrent.

However, the nature of black and other minority entities is not the same. The creation of these things is to counteract the under representation that they experience in society. The black entertainment television station was not created to *exclude* white people. It was created to meet the unmet needs and desires of the African American community.

That is the fundamental difference between the two. You asked. I answered. .

[Daniel]

DeV, I think the point being made here is that exclusionary practices are considered racist when it is a white organization, and "necessary" when it is a black organization, even though it stopped being necessary 40 years ago.

^

No need to Hmmm... I simply ignored your idiotic comment. If it hasn't been neccessary for 40 years then why is this still a problem?

Besides, we all know where you stand on minority issues anyway. So I have better ways to waste my time.

[thefarmer]

lol, yes it is. I used a thousand years because if we're all still on this planet by then, I'm imagining the race issue will be so intermingled that people will have to look harder to find differences in which to be judgemental or to discriminate with.

I'm going to start a bank. I'm only going to make special loans to people with blue eyes, no loans for any other type of person. Yes it will be discriminatory against all brown and green eyed people, and for them life will continue to suck. But it will help all the blue eyed people.

Can you sleep at night with that?

(yes, I'm having fun with this discussion)

This happens all the time (Minus the eye color example). Surely you're aware of this and and just using the extreme example to prove a point.

I see no problem with offering specific loans for specific-needs people. Blue eyed people have no particular need over green, brown, albino or whatever color. In the previous example, single parent families have different specific economic needs than dual parent familes, so I think comparing eye color isn't exactly appropriate.

[Sean]

This happens all the time (Minus the eye color example). Surely you're aware of this and and just using the extreme example to prove a point.

I see no problem with offering specific loans for specific-needs people. Blue eyed people have no particular need over green, brown, albino or whatever color. In the previous example, single parent families have different specific economic needs than dual parent familes, so I think comparing eye color isn't exactly appropriate.

Beyond that good luck to that bank in finding people with Brown eyes and Green eyes to do business with them in general. If a bank made a decision like that and really believed it was for the best interest of people with Blue eyes they'd also be doing it knowing that people with Brown eyes or Green eyes wouldn't support it. In the same way I don't think the BMA expects the support outside of its target audience nor do I think that I would expect all two parent familes to support my single parent cause.

[Stanley Burrell]

I grew up in a single parent household. Now lets say I grow old and in the process I make some Bill Gates money. Realizing I have more than myself or my family will ever need I set up a charity that helps single parent families financially. Just because the charity discriminated against two parent families doesn't mean I begrudge them anything it just means I personally can identify with the pitfalls of a single parent household and feel I can make a better impact that way. Is it discriminatory? Of course but it also helps people.

If you really want to feed all the hungry children of the world, you should start by cloning enough dollar bills to open new chain of family-style restaurants!

Oh, yeah. Oh, hell yeah!

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=9084000

[Stanley Burrell]

Tijay also reminds me of Frylock. But not because he's black and at one point had dreads.

.

Actually, it is because he's black and at one point had dreads.

[Gan]

The belief of the predominate amount of white people in America at some point in time. I don't presume to tell you what you belief and I say this as someone who has a white parent. However, you can not sit here and deny the racial inequality that still exists in society today. Is it the same as above? Of course not, but as this case amply illustrates, it certainly still exists. I've never denied racial inequality exists. In fact, through this discussion we've discovered or at least learned that it exists on more than one one side of the fence.


If you wish to take pride in your "whiteness" I encourage you to do so. My grandmother does geneology on her spare time and takes great pride in her German-Russian Heritage. She is a member of several German, Russian "appreciation" societies and a contributing member to most. Where did you get this from, and how it it relevant with anything that I've said? Or are you just throwing the race card out simply because you dont agree?


However, you have to recognize the differences between that and the creation of something that is "for" whites. The reason that a WET or any other white selective organization or entity in America is fundamentally different than any minority entity is because white society as a whole, regardless of how you feel about it, has a legacy of brutally oppressing other races to elevate theirs. So does catholocism, should we include them? I'm not denying that white america is responsible for some pretty heavy atrocities. But as a race, regardless of which one, if you continue to focus on those atrocities in the past and use the to justify being discriminatory on any level in the present or future then you're just taking 2 steps backwards instead of making any progress of putting this type of behavior behind you.


Similar organizations have existed with the express purpose of *excluding* other races from their privledges. Which is as you have mentioned abhorrent. Glad you agree.


However, the nature of black and other minority entities is not the same. The creation of these things is to counteract the under representation that they experience in society. The black entertainment television station was not created to *exclude* white people. It was created to meet the unmet needs and desires of the African American community. Which is why I never had any issue with BET. As long as the entity is not exclusionary based on race then I dont see it as a hypocritical issue.

[Sean]

If you really want to feed all the hungry children of the world, you should start by cloning enough dollar bills to open new chain of family-style restaurants!

Oh, yeah. Oh, hell yeah!

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=9084000

If that was my goal I'd use aborted fetuses for stem cells and clone some Shakey's resturants.

[Latrinsorm]

So in essence you want them to celebrate their diversity and extended culture in a manner which you dictate to be good and wholesome.Not me, actually. I try to go by what that Dr. King guy said, he seemed to be pretty well-informed on these matters. And I quote: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

And I quote from the MBA site: "The opinion of the Miss Black America Pageant is that Black is the most beautiful entity any human being with dark skin can be in America."

I mean, obviously Dr. King was some moralizing whitey too, right? "Good to know."
The reason that a WET or any other white selective organization or entity in America is fundamentally different than any minority entity is because white society as a whole, regardless of how you feel about it, has a legacy of brutally oppressing other races to elevate theirs.
... However, the nature of black and other minority entities is not the same. The creation of these things is to counteract the under representation that they experience in society. The black entertainment television station was not created to *exclude* white people.This comparison doesn't quite jive: you're comparing what "white society" did then with what black people need/want now. Why isn't black society held similarly accountable for things they had no involvement in, and why aren't whatever white people's hypothetical present reasons for making WET taken into consideration?

[TheEschaton]

This whole idea of why it's okay to have BET and not WET as a specific channel is something they were debating much more rudimentarily in Plessy v. Ferguson. Was a seperate but materially equal car enforcing discrimination against blacks?

The Supreme Court came to the wrong decision in that case, but later overturned its decision based on the idea that it was obvious that the true intention was not to have equality of accomodations, but that whites specifically did not want blacks in their rail car, and it didn't matter whether or not blacks wanted whites in their rail car, because frankly, not many white people actually wanted to be in their rail car. It was the idea that freely associating with blacks would lessen their quality of life which motivated people.

Skipping to modern day - specific white-centered things, such as a hypothetical WET would not be based in pride for their white race (after all, they are an amalgamation of European cultures, many of which don't get along with each other), it would be pride in not associating with blacks. Meanwhile, things like HBCUs and BET are not specifically created to be proud of not including whites, but to preserve and celebrate a specific culture and struggle.

Do you see the distinction? A WET is racist in that it supports the idea that the majority's quality of life would be lessened by association with the black race. The BET isn't racist in that the minority is asserting its culture and celebrating it, which, admittedly, they don't think white people don't get.

Now, if specific whites had, for example, Italian Entertainment Television, they could make a stronger case that they believed in pride in their race, not pride in the exclusion of other races based on color.

-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

after all, they are an amalgamation of European cultures, many of which don't get along with each otherThat distinction doesn't have the weight it did one or two generations ago. Do you think more people these days identify as "Irish" "German" "Polish" "Ukranian" or "white"? When was the last time you heard someone our age say "yeah I don't hang out with him because his grandfather was from Estonia"?
A WET is racist in that it supports the idea that the majority's quality of life would be lessened by association with the black race.It could be. It's pretty ridiculous to assert that it is without even knowing who we're talking about. It's not the case that all white people are racist (and it never was). What people choose to dowse from a statement doesn't have to have any relation to what the statement actually is. Hello, the Bible?

[thefarmer]

Do you see the distinction? A WET is racist in that it supports the idea that the majority's quality of life would be lessened by association with the black race. The BET isn't racist in that the minority is asserting its culture and celebrating it, which, admittedly, they don't think white people don't get.

-TheE-

This is probably the most coherent distilling of why many people, myself included, have no problem with BET, MBA (Which the first time I saw someone use the acronym, I thought it was the business degree) etc.

Celebration of a culture (BET) versus limiting exposure to outside races (Augusta National, prior Tiger)

[TheEschaton]

I was just offering a historical perspective on what the judicial test is. If it was perceived that the white organization was somehow targetted towards casting a minority race as lesser citizens, it would be discriminatory. If it is merely cultural in nature (which is hard since there's no specific white culture), then it's not discriminatory.

[Daniel]

I've never denied racial inequality exists. In fact, through this discussion we've discovered or at least learned that it exists on more than one one side of the fence.

[quote]

But you questioned it. Therefore, I felt the need to answer your question. I'm sorry. In the future I will not do so.

[quote]
Where did you get this from, and how it it relevant with anything that I've said? Or are you just throwing the race card out simply because you dont agree?



I'm throwing it out there as an example of a white organization that is not considered racist and to illustrate my point that there is a difference between "White only" and "Black" entities.



So does catholocism, should we include them? I'm not denying that white america is responsible for some pretty heavy atrocities. But as a race, regardless of which one, if you continue to focus on those atrocities in the past and use the to justify being discriminatory on any level in the present or future then you're just taking 2 steps backwards instead of making any progress of putting this type of behavior behind you.


Therein lies the problem. It's not just about "ending discrimination" its about righting the material wrongs that discrimination has wrought in this country. Simply doing away with discrimination on paper, while doing nothing to correct the inequities that exist because of it do not fix the problem.

Sure, blacks were giving civil rights in 1965, but the reality is that alot of them were unable to attain the full benefits of this because of their position. Work has been done in this regard, but it is hardly complete.

That is not to say that "discrimination" is inherently right, but rather that it is neccessary to give preference and added benefit to help level the playing field.




Glad you agree.
Which is why I never had any issue with BET. As long as the entity is not exclusionary based on race then I dont see it as a hypocritical issue.


thx.

[Stanley Burrell]

If that was my goal I'd use aborted fetuses for stem cells and clone some Shakey's resturants.

:rofl: I need to catch up with my SP viewing, actually.

[Gan]

But you questioned it. Therefore, I felt the need to answer your question. I'm sorry. In the future I will not do so.
I never questioned that racism exists here in the US. I'm questioning that it doesnt exist in the black culture, and that the other hand of that same victim uses the very same principals to discriminate against those that are not black. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of today's attitude and perception that racism only exists for the people of color.



I'm throwing it out there as an example of a white organization that is not considered racist and to illustrate my point that there is a difference between "White only" and "Black" entities. There is a difference if and only if one is exclusory and the other is not. Or vice versa. Two identical entities that are not exlusory are not different in terms of discrimination or racism. Because it exists and yet does not discriminate does not make it racist. Because it exists and because it does discriminate makes it racist. Do you see the difference?


Therein lies the problem. It's not just about "ending discrimination" its about righting the material wrongs that discrimination has wrought in this country. Simply doing away with discrimination on paper, while doing nothing to correct the inequities that exist because of it do not fix the problem. When you say material wrongs, do you mean reparations? Or do you mean correcting still existing practices of discrimination in the business world, in the judicial world, and in the social sector? If you mean the former, I couldnt disagree with you more. If you mean the latter, then I whole heartedly agree that they need correcting.


Sure, blacks were giving civil rights in 1965, but the reality is that alot of them were unable to attain the full benefits of this because of their position. Work has been done in this regard, but it is hardly complete. Agreed, there are many many people who are still convinced that racism exists on both sides of the fence. And rightfully so. So is requiring one side to correct the behavior and not the other the best way to go about solving the perception/attitude/practice of discrimination?


That is not to say that "discrimination" is inherently right, but rather that it is neccessary to give preference and added benefit to help level the playing field. I disagree. If you're going to eliminate discrimination, which is not a grey issue, then you need to eliminate it completely... not just halfway. I choose to lead by example.

[Anebriated]

All I know is back in high school there was a BSU(black student union). It consisted of all black members and when a white kid who was even friends with all of the black kids in the group tried to join he was denied. Racism is as alive as its ever been and its not white vs black. No matter what happens there will be a group who is left out and that group will call it unfair. Hell there is a Latino day at the Phillies stadium coming up next week. Why the fuck do Latino's have a day at the stadium in a city where Latino's are uncommon. Ironically its sponsered by Goya...

[chillmonster]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6477556933269994561&q=kamau+kambon&total=32&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

What does this prove? ANYONE who sees this guy should say he's an asshole who is wrong as hell. Please don't tell me you are looking at examples of black people doing something bad and attributing their racism to all (or most) black people.

Conversely, what would I prove if i posted examples of white racist? Nothing at all.

[Daniel]

I never questioned that racism exists here in the US. I'm questioning that it doesnt exist in the black culture, and that the other hand of that same victim uses the very same principals to discriminate against those that are not black. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of today's attitude and perception that racism only exists for the people of color.



That's not what you were questioning when you said "Whose belief is that?".

I've never stated that racism can not be reciprocated. However, there is a distinct difference between personal dislike and the manifestations of white racism in America.

I could care less if you hate me because I'm black.

I do care that I'm more likely to end up shafted in the American system because I am black.

There is a distinction there that is neccessary to grasp the cusp of the argument. I hope you see it.



There is a difference if and only if one is exclusory and the other is not. Or vice versa. Two identical entities that are not exlusory are not different in terms of discrimination or racism. Because it exists and yet does not discriminate does not make it racist. Because it exists and because it does discriminate makes it racist. Do you see the difference?


You fail to understand the point I was making. I was saying that the nature of one organization (white only) is inherently different from "Black entities" such as say, bet, because the former is established to be exclude certain segments of the population and to deny them the same rights that would otherwise exist. Whereas the latter is a direct response to this, as in it fills the gap that is left by the initial discrimination.

The black organizations are not created to "exclude" whites. They are created to fulfill the societal wants and needs of the African American, and other minority, communities that are not met in mainstream society. However, it can not be said that the same need exists for the mainstream, white, society as they are fully represented in all facets of society and even if they weren't, have the ability to do so without hindrance or repercussion.



When you say material wrongs, do you mean reparations? Or do you mean correcting still existing practices of discrimination in the business world, in the judicial world, and in the social sector? If you mean the former, I couldnt disagree with you more. If you mean the latter, then I whole heartedly agree that they need correcting.


The Latter. I could care less about 40 acres and a mule. I live in Downtown Washington, D.C. and frankly I don't need the help. I've by and large made it. However, the same can not, and probably will not, be said for many like me.



Agreed, there are many many people who are still convinced that racism exists on both sides of the fence. And rightfully so. So is requiring one side to correct the behavior and not the other the best way to go about solving the perception/attitude/practice of discrimination?

I disagree. If you're going to eliminate discrimination, which is not a grey issue, then you need to eliminate it completely... not just halfway. I choose to lead by example.

I'd say its pretty ignorant to expect one side to not be biased when they are still dealing with the negative effects of the bias of another.

The existence of BET or HBCU's does not materially effect your life, neither does the existence of an all black female beauty pageant (no comment). You still have all the opportunities that you previously had, and the creation of these does nothing to diminish that.

On the other hand, there exists a sizable portion of the population where the basic fruits of the system are still out of reach. I feel it when black schools are critically underfunded because that is where my sister has to get her high school education. I feel it when black males are incarcerated at rates 7 to 1 because that's my brother (or another flip of the coin, me) that has to serve those 7 years.

Where are your priorities when you feel the need to argue about the existence of a black beauty pegeant when set against the backdrop of these *realities*? Do you honestly expect me to believe that you give a shit when you devote so much of your time trying to prove that "Black people can be racist"?

I really feel your pain.

[Gan]

That's not what you were questioning when you said "Whose belief is that?".

I've never stated that racism can not be reciprocated. However, there is a distinct difference between personal dislike and the manifestations of white racism in America.
But its ok to have black racism in America. I get it now. Your point is loud and clear, and sad.


I could care less if you hate me because I'm black. Could have fooled me. PS. I'm the furthest you'll find to being racist here on these boards. So your attempt to paint me as one is failing miserably.


I do care that I'm more likely to end up shafted in the American system because I am black. So again, its OK if you practice discrimination as long as others are going to do it. Stellar reasoning there bub. Stellar. Here's a newsflash for you... as long as you support discrimination in any form then expect reciprocation because there are millions of others who are taking your same mentality to task with this issue. So much for the high ground eh?



There is a distinction there that is neccessary to grasp the cusp of the argument. I hope you see it. I see your distinction, its full of excuses and crutches and resentment on whats happened before while turning a blind eye to your own perspective, behavior, and practice. Good luck with that. Let me know how it turns out for you.



You fail to understand the point I was making. I was saying that the nature of one organization (white only) is inherently different from "Black entities" such as say, bet, because the former is established to be exclude certain segments of the population and to deny them the same rights that would otherwise exist. Whereas the latter is a direct response to this, as in it fills the gap that is left by the initial discrimination. You're assuming that a wet entity is reactionary against a bet channel and that its sole purpose is to discriminate against. Again, your perspective is screwed up (actually its just blind to only one side). Really screwed up. I bet you see racism in every step you take in your waking life. Thats sad, really sad. I feel sorry for the people that have to deal with you when you are so quick to throw out the race card when things dont go your way. Face it, as long as there are folks who are like you, white or black, racism will continue to exist. That should make you feel proud to keep up the momentum on this issue.


The black organizations are not created to "exclude" whites. They are created to fulfill the societal wants and needs of the African American, and other minority, communities that are not met in mainstream society. Are you kidding me? So all black organizations, even the ones who exclude participation of others of different races or cultures are there to meet the needs of the African American community? LOL, give me a break. If its discriminatory then its racist. By your logic, then the needs of the AA comunity is one of racism. And WTF is an African American? You're either an American or you're not. Dont give me that African American label bullshit. Get over your identity crisis please. You're not from Africa. You were born in America, you're American.


However, it can not be said that the same need exists for the mainstream, white, society as they are fully represented in all facets of society and even if they weren't, have the ability to do so without hindrance or repercussion. So you speak for both the black community and the white community now. God Damn you're impressive. (and full of shit it seems)


The Latter. I could care less about 40 acres and a mule. I live in Downtown Washington, D.C. and frankly I don't need the help. I've by and large made it. However, the same can not, and probably will not, be said for many like me. So you do support reparations, just not for you. Got it, thanks.


I'd say its pretty ignorant to expect one side to not be biased when they are still dealing with the negative effects of the bias of another. Ahh, the old 'its ok because they're doing it too excuse'. Again with the high road.


The existence of BET or HBCU's does not materially effect your life, neither does the existence of an all black female beauty pageant (no comment). You still have all the opportunities that you previously had, and the creation of these does nothing to diminish that. Newsflash, I never said it was about me. In fact, I demonstrated where it can be said it does the movement to abolish discrimination harm to continue to support and practice events that are exclusory by race, such as the example given of the MBA pageant. Way to totally miss the target there Robin Hood.


On the other hand, there exists a sizable portion of the population where the basic fruits of the system are still out of reach. I feel it when black schools are critically underfunded because that is where my sister has to get her high school education. I feel it when black males are incarcerated at rates 7 to 1 because that's my brother (or another flip of the coin, me) that has to serve those 7 years. Black schools? I guess Brown v. BOE was thrown out without my knowledge? You mean schools, inner city, rural, suburban. Underfunded schools are not exclusive to areas that are predominately black. You must be watching the news with your black colored glasses on...

And yes, all criminals are innocent, especially black ones. Excuse me while I say niggah please. Every inmate that is currently incarcerated is not there for singing too loudly in church. Are there bad judges, you betcha.... Are there bad DA's, you betcha. Nifong is the most recent example of one finally overturned. So as long as you perceive injustice then its ok to continue to practice your own brand if discrimination. Eye for an eye and all that. Maybe someday you'll wake up and realize there's a better solution and that it doesnt involve retribution but moving past whats been done and proactively seeking to correct any and all examples of discrimination. Doubtful, but yea, we can all dream a dream.


Where are your priorities when you feel the need to argue about the existence of a black beauty pegeant when set against the backdrop of these *realities*? Its an example of discrimination and racism on the other side of the fence. If you cant deal with it at least acknowledge it and suggest that something needs to be done about it. At least admit that if you're going to admit there's a problem then you have to admit that there's areas within your own culture that need cleaning up in order to take ownership in improving things for the future. Sitting back and waiting for everyone else to fix their problems while you carry on with the status quo is only going to get you called a hypocrit and probably laughed at as being non-credible.


Do you honestly expect me to believe that you give a shit when you devote so much of your time trying to prove that "Black people can be racist"? Considering your current views on whitey and that racism doesnt exist in black america... I dont expect you to believe anything that goes against whats ingrained in your thought process.


I really feel your pain. No you dont, and I dont have much pain, just pity and a little sadness that you choose to perpetuate the problem instead of seeking a solution.

Just admit that you're a racist and that you're proud of it so we can move on to the next topic. Seriously, it will make you feel better to come out of the closet.

[thefarmer]

Just admit that you're a racist and that you're proud of it so we can move on to the next topic. Seriously, it will make you feel better to come out of the closet.

He sees things differently than you, and frankly on some points I agree, and others I disagree. While you mock his 'attempts to paint you as a racist' (Which I don't think he was trying to prove) you seem quick to do the same (Which I don't agree with either).


No you dont, and I dont have much pain, just pity and a little sadness that you choose to perpetuate the problem instead of seeking a solution.

The only solution I see you offering is a banishment of all types of groups, from 'Big N Tall' clothing stores, to banks that gives out loans to blue-eyed people, BET, MBA, the selective service, to scholarships.

I have no problem with this if everyone was equal in a political, judicial, economic (To use your previous phrase) sense, which is impossible in todays society for various reasons.

[chillmonster]

The NAACP has been around for a century, and it has had the same name for the entire time - since before the term 'colored' was considered an insult. They've been around so long and are so ingrained in the history of the United States that I think to request that they change their name is an insult. Disagree with some of the things they do; disagree with the policies they support; but don't stoop to call the organization racist because of a name that neither yourself nor any current member of the organization was around to think up. It's obvious to me that most people of you guy's generation never learned much more than MLK in the month you got to learn about that part of American history because if you did gain the kind of perspective you'd get from those classes, you'd have a little respect for what good the organization has done.

You know the reason why when people use the N word they get in trouble? Because there are people out there who genuinely feel so offended that they stand up and say something. Yes, it's a free country and people can say whatever the hell they want. I agree. I also agree that people don't have the right to freedom from offending remarks from others. Companies that advertise, however, don't want people who make a habit of offending a large group of people associated with their products, so the people who provide the money for our media would rather not have that stuff on air. It's not because the N word is more wrong than other words. It's because the consumers are more offended.

Don't believe me? Let's do a test. If you are truly offended by some black comedian's cracker remark get together some like minded people and protest! It's a free country. You and any group of equally offended people can exploit the hell out of your freedom of assembly and protest his ass. For some reason, I don't think you'll find that that many people who are offended at all or give enough of a damn to roll their fat asses out of bed on Saturday to yell at a building:question: . Maybe you'll realize that the people who actually do that really do feel insulted, and aren't simply out to piss off people like you.

Should they feel insulted? I know I don't feel insulted at all when it's simply a joke and without malice. Considering, however, the fact that everyone in the world didn't grow up in an open minded community where they didn't encounter racism, and understanding that the vast majority of those organizing and participating in these protests are those who actually did struggle for simple civil rights and do have very valid reasons to have strong emotional responses to such reminders of trying times for them.

I hope you understand the subtle distinction I'm trying to make. The words themselves - or any acts of bigotry - don't come with a wrongness meter, and the public reaction isn't based on any such scale. Citizens who take enough of an offense to something, rightfully or not, voice that offense and the business community responds. The objective measure of how heinous a statement or act is almost completely irrelevant. For example, if there were 20 million Americans who worshipped sponges and decided to protest Spongebob Squarepants, it would be canceled in a month. It's about the effect it has on people and whether it has enough of an effect to galvanize them.

One last comment about those who discount the history of racism in out country and its effects today. I think everyone here is reasonable, so we should all agree that history isn't a list of isolated occurrences, it's continuous and builds on itself. There are exceptions to every rule, but in the aggregate, when 90% of a certain people are poor, uneducated, and unfamiliar with education most of their kids will be the same. Now, I can give examples of how the economic infrastructure was destroyed time and throughout the century and change that started after Reconstruction, but that' won't prove anything to anyone who doesn't grasp the fact that there are always factors outside of one's control that contribute to the present situation.

Notice I didn't say that you aren't ultimately responsible for your own situation. But if you insist on talking about black people as a whole and not about individuals then you have to take into account that factors that contribute in the aggregate. The real question is, "How are these problems addressed?" A government handout - I personally don't like the idea. Say, "Tough shit," and let it be? I don't like that idea either. That brings us back private organizations like the NAACP and United Negro College Fund that strive to address large problems in systematically disadvantaged communities.

Note: I skimmed over some things because I didn't want to make this much longer than it already is.

[chillmonster]

And you know what just struck me as completely ironic? Those kids have nothing to do with anyone's irrational hatred for the Historically Black Colleges. They're being fucked by that DA, and whatever comes of this, it won't be the ACLU or some church group that comes to their aid. It will be those same people who have been fighting injustices like this their entire lives - yes the racist NAACP and the crazy people who yell at buildings will put pressure on politicians and hire an excellent lawyer to prevent them from relying on inept public defenders. Those same people that are so unnecessary because racism died 40 years ago will - if anyone at all - be the ones to save those kid's futures.

And if you don't want them around, then make them unnecessary. Give enough of a fuck about those kids to even write a letter saying how unfair giving them 20 years each would be. If you can't even do that, much less hop on a plane just to stand beside them, don't talk to me about how these people shouldn't be protesting or there shouldn't be an NAACP.

[Blazing247]

Daniel, I hope that you end up a self-fulfilling prophecy and get "shafted in the American system". I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

[DeV]

What does this prove? ANYONE who sees this guy should say he's an asshole who is wrong as hell. Please don't tell me you are looking at examples of black people doing something bad and attributing their racism to all (or most) black people.

Conversely, what would I prove if i posted examples of white racist? Nothing at all. You pretty much nailed the fact that it proves nothing. It's also regurgitated.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=25180


This guy is a nut, for sure, but don't point at him like he's some three-headed racist when each and every one of you out there reading this post has the same propensity for racism- black, Mexican, Chinese, white, or otherwise.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Disagree with some of the things they do; disagree with the policies they support; but don't stoop to call the organization racist because of a name that neither yourself nor any current member of the organization was around to think up.

The NAACP is no doubt a racist group. I think it's original intent was good, but the principle the entire organization is based on is racism--irony at it's finest.

It has nothing to do with their name, it's their color based code of conduct. I know, I know, it's ok for them to be blatantly racist and proud of it because of the white oppressor.

[DeV]

Not me, actually.I try to go by what that Dr. King guy said, he seemed to be pretty well-informed on these matters. And I quote: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Alternately, you seem to be not so well-informed on these matters. In my opinion, we're not quite all the way there yet, but it's nice to know you're keeping hope alive.

[thefarmer]

The NAACP is no doubt a racist group. I think it's original intent was good, but the principle the entire organization is based on is racism--irony at it's finest.

The principle the entire organization is based on is the creation of a group designed to promote black welfare in a culture where their minority voice had little say in the majority (white) ruled society. So you're right, it is based on racism.

[Tea & Strumpets]

The principle the entire organization is based on is the creation of a group designed to promote black welfare in a culture where their minority voice had little say in the majority (white) ruled society. So you're right, it is based on racism.

Let me put it more simply. They'll decide whether or not to help you based solely on the amount of melanin in your skin. Sugar coat it or make excuses for it all you like, those are the facts.

[chillmonster]

Let me put it more simply. They'll decide whether or not to help you based solely on the amount of melanin in your skin. Sugar coat it or make excuses for it all you like, those are the facts.

Their mandate is to fight racial discrimination. What happened in Jenna can not happen to a white person in America. And before you point out the Duke LaCrosse case, not a single one of those kids went to jail and the DA has lost his job because of it. In Jenna, one of the kids is already facing 20 years in jail because it was the judge, jury, prosecutor, public defender, and the community. Without the NAACP lawyer that they'll almost surely receive, the rest will be in the same boat. Why is there not a counterpart for white Americans? Because it's unnecessary.

[Latrinsorm]

hypocrisyThis made my morning. :up:
The only solution I see you offering is a banishment of all types of groups, from 'Big N Tall' clothing stores, to banks that gives out loans to blue-eyed people, BET, MBA, the selective service, to scholarships.I would say height-based discrimination isn't quite as pervasive as or on the level of race-based discrimination, wouldn't you? I don't see how it's so outrageous to think that if we want to get rid of racism we should get rid of racist organizations.
if you did gain the kind of perspective you'd get from those classes, you'd have a little respect for what good the organization has done.Once again, I'm glad that the organization was responsible for good before. That doesn't change the fact that I want (all) racism to stop. I don't think it's alright to justify an evil if good things come from it. I'm sure at least one black person who's been prosecuted unfairly would have ended up doing something really bad if they hadn't been.
but that' won't prove anything to anyone who doesn't grasp the fact that there are always factors outside of one's control that contribute to the present situation.There are way more poor white people than poor black people. (Incidentally, 70% of black families with married parents had more than $35k income per year in 2001.)
What happened in Jenna can not happen to a white person in America.You're seriously suggesting that white people are never prosecuted overzealously to the point of incarceration? Ever?

[Stanley Burrell]

And if you don't want them around, then make them unnecessary. Give enough of a fuck about those kids to even write a letter saying how unfair giving them 20 years each would be. If you can't even do that, much less hop on a plane just to stand beside them, don't talk to me about how these people shouldn't be protesting or there shouldn't be an NAACP.

Bravo :clap:

[Artha]

There are way more poor white people than poor black people.
Unless you mean there are more because of population size differences and there aren't more proportionally, I'm calling bullshit.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Latrinsorm
I would say height-based discrimination isn't quite as pervasive as or on the level of race-based discrimination, wouldn't you? I don't see how it's so outrageous to think that if we want to get rid of racism we should get rid of racist organizations.

In the previously mentioned Utopian society I'd agree with you but in the reality we live in, as cliche as it is to say, who would watch the watchers? Maybe I just don't have the trust in society that you do that with organizations like the NAACP gone everyone would raise up hand in hand and make sure that the minority representation is equal to that of the majority.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Their mandate is to fight racial discrimination. What happened in Jenna can not happen to a white person in America. And before you point out the Duke LaCrosse case, not a single one of those kids went to jail and the DA has lost his job because of it. In Jenna, one of the kids is already facing 20 years in jail because it was the judge, jury, prosecutor, public defender, and the community. Without the NAACP lawyer that they'll almost surely receive, the rest will be in the same boat. Why is there not a counterpart for white Americans? Because it's unnecessary.

The whole reason it's a news story is because it's a blatant injustice. It doesn't have anything to do with the NAACP--they're busy making sure Michael Vick gets forgiveness because he passed their only litmus test, skin color.

And it's funny that you disregard the Duke case when the white kids were assumed guilty by the prosecuter and the media.

I predict the black kids sue and end up millionaires, and that none of them do significant jail time.

[chillmonster]

I find it amusing that you can claim I'm generalizing an entire culture, when not only do you generalize blacks, but you lump everyone else NOT black into a fairly wrong opinion. It's wrong, mainly because I have no idea what you're trying to say, and what little I can get from that phrase, I don't agree with.

You know what, you're right. I was generalizing black people. What I should have said is most black people I know. But when did I lump everyone else into one opinion? I'm speaking about something most people naturally do, but specifically about those who do it all the time and sometimes may not even realize they are doing it.

[chillmonster]

The whole reason it's a news story is because it's a blatant injustice. It doesn't have anything to do with the NAACP--they're busy making sure Michael Vick gets forgiveness because he passed their only litmus test, skin color.

And it's funny that you disregard the Duke case when the white kids were assumed guilty by the prosecuter and the media.

I predict the black kids sue and end up millionaires, and that none of them do significant jail time.

The DUKE KIDS WERE NOT CONVICTED. I'm not saying it's ok. I'm not saying it's less wrong. I'm saying that without help, these kids will get screwed - one of them already has. And the first people in line to help them will be that racist organization that does nothing but fight percieved injustice. Maybe when people like you give enough of a damn about these kids to take the place of the NAACP, the organizaiton will not be needed.

Take this example. Let's put the Duke case in Jenna and they're 3 black football players. Do you think the Jenna community would have hesitated to charge and convict them - especially if those guys had to rely on public defenders instead of high priced lawyers? It's not about any racism being more wrong than any other racism. It's about necessity, and the fact is there are more cases where institutionalized racism does real harm black people without knowledge of how to fight it or access to the kind of resources necessary.

Notice, I didn't say that there are no examples of white people dealing with this; I just can't think of any examples.

[Blazing247]

Maybe when people like you give enough of a damn about these kids to take the place of the NAACP, the organizaiton will not be needed.


Wait, and who in the black community was defending the Duke players when Jackson and Sharpton were war-mongering against them? Seriously, what a stupid thing for you to say.

[DeV]

I don't see how it's so outrageous to think that if we want to get rid of racism we should get rid of racist organizations.The Klan, Neo-Nazis, and other White Power Nationalist Organizations are all alive and well and have been for decades longer than groups like the NAACP.



That doesn't change the fact that I want (all) racism to stop. Prove it. If you want (all) racism to stop then you'll begin actually addressing (all) racism.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/ku-klux-klan-section-390839.html




I don't think it's alright to justify an evil if good things come from it.

Right, unless it pertains to Christian Churchs who in many different ways are corrupt and hypocritical.



I'm sure at least one black person who's been prosecuted unfairly would have ended up doing something really bad if they hadn't been.Save your speculation.


You're seriously suggesting that white people are never prosecuted overzealously to the point of incarceration? Ever?That isn't remotely what he indicated.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Blazing247
Wait, and who in the black community was defending the Duke players when Jackson and Sharpton were war-mongering against them? Seriously, what a stupid thing for you to say.

Thats a pretty stupid thing for you to say. He's asking you, if you care, as an individual to write in with a voice of support. If you don't like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton for their personal stances thats certainly your right but if your taking the stance that no one in the black community supported the duke kids because of what they had to say once again I'll have to remind you that Jesse Jackson is not the president of black people.

[CrystalTears]

The Klan, Neo-Nazis, and other White Power Nationalist Organizations are all alive and well and have been for decades longer than groups like the NAACP.
And there are plenty of white people ashamed of these organizations. If these fuckwads came to my defense, I think I'd shoot myself. Not sure how mentioning them helps.

[DeV]

Wait, and who in the black community was defending the Duke players when Jackson and Sharpton were war-mongering against them? Seriously, what a stupid thing for you to say.When the media consistently goes to Jackson and Sharpton for anything regarding race and asks their opinion it is so easily assumed that they speak for all black people.

It should strike people as odd, not standard procedure that this is what continually happens. Anyone with any common sense should see through this and know that he does not speak for all black people. It's not that hard to deal with people as individuals; it happens with every other race in this country.

[chillmonster]

Wait, and who in the black community was defending the Duke players when Jackson and Sharpton were war-mongering against them? Seriously, what a stupid thing for you to say.

I'm not so sure that Jackson and Sharpton were war mongering, but even if they were what about my argument does that change? That the Duke Lacross kids were completely vindicated and not wrongly convicted? That a black person in their situation in a town like Jenna would have been in dire starights without help?

Besides, when did Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson become the heads of the NAACP? They do what they want. Those two aren't all civil rights organizations and they aren't elected representatives of all black people.

[Sean]

From now on I'm basing my opinions on all stances from the "white" community on the opinions and positions put forth by the likes of David Duke.

[DeV]

And there are plenty of white people ashamed of these organizations. Actually, I'm concerned with the people in this thread calling for the elimination of groups like the NAACP while you still have racially exclusive white organizations like the Klan still going strong. I'm sorry if you can't grasp the glaring hypocricy.

You also have controversial hispanic groups like La Raza(NCLR) and their volatile off-shoot student organization MECha. Both are hispanic organizations who appear to be racially exclusive yet I heve yet to hear their names mentioned in conjunction with perpetuating racism.

The point is there are plenty of people ashamed of any number of organizations who discriminate for any number of reasons, but before you go calling for a particular racially based organization to eliminate itself the need for their presense must first be eliminated.

[CrystalTears]

Actually, I'm concerned with the people in this thread calling for the elimination of groups like the NAACP while you still have racially exclusive white organizations like the Klan still going strong. I'm sorry if you can't grasp the glaring hypocricy.
Uh, get rid of them too. Is someone saying not to?

[chillmonster]

Actually, I'm concerned with the people in this thread calling for the elimination of groups like the NAACP while you still have racially exclusive white organizations like the Klan still going strong. I'm sorry if you can't grasp the glaring hypocricy.

You also have controversial hispanic groups like La Raza(NCLR) and their volatile off-shoot student organization MECha. Both are hispanic organizations who appear to be racially exclusive yet I heve yet to hear their names mentioned in conjunction with perpetuating racism.

The point is there are plenty of people ashamed of any number of organizations who discriminate for any number of reasons, but before you go calling for a particular racially based organization to eliminate itself the need for their presense must first be eliminated.

I don't like that you equate the NAACP to the Klan. They're not the same.

[DeV]

I don't like that you equate the NAACP to the Klan. They're not the same.
More to the point, I don't like it that people equate the NAACP's exclusionary practices as those of purely racist ideologies, failing to take into consideration the glaring differences between an org like the Klan and an org like the NAACP. I'm equating it the way I see others viewing it in this thread.

I bring up those organizations in an attempt to shift the focus where it should be if we are to present ourselves as the moral race police of American society, except trying to fix things backwards.

[DeV]

Is someone saying not to?Yes. I am and some others who've posted in this thread in response to comments declaring the NAACP a racist organization that should be eliminated.

These are private organizations that do not receive federal funding, which ultimately grants them the right to be selective in their membership and act in a manner appropriate to their beliefs. Welcome to America where discrimination is legal and practiced not only by some of our very own government instutions, but also by the church you happen to be associated with and many others.

[Gan]

Prove it. If you want (all) racism to stop then you'll begin actually addressing (all) racism.

THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY ALL ALONG!!!

[DeV]

THATS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY ALL ALONG!!!
I HAVEN'T SEEN YOU DO ANYTHING EXCEPT GIVE AN OPINION!!!!11

Seriously.

[Tea & Strumpets]

Yes. I am and some others who've posted in this thread in response to comments declaring the NAACP a racist organization that should be eliminated.

These are private organizations that do not receive federal funding, which ultimately grants them the right to be selective in their membership and act in a manner appropriate to their beliefs. Welcome to America where discrimination is legal and practiced not only by some of our very own government instutions, but also by the church you happen to be associated with and many others.

I don't know if you meant me, but I never called for the abolishment of the NAACP. I just pointed out they are a racist organization. I never said they were the same as the Klan either. The Klan acknowledges that they are racists (and are reviled for it), while the NAACP points out that they are merely ensuring that "colored" (not sure who that includes other than you can't be white) Americans receive equality.

I just disagree with an organization that pretends they are against racism when they base their entire ideaology on skin color. I'm positive the NAACP has done good work and even averted what could have been tragic injustices---but I'm still not sure how anyone can say an organization who's measuring stick is skin color isn't racist.

[Gan]

I HAVEN'T SEEN YOU DO ANYTHING EXCEPT GIVE AN OPINION!!!!11

Seriously.

Then I cant help your reading comprehension skills. Especially when what I've been trying to say all along has also been the opinion I've been saying. :(

[Sean]

I think her point is whats your actual plan (over the next 1,000 years) to actually rid the world (or atleast the USA) of racism? Clearly step 1 is don't discriminate in anyway anymore. After that it gets a little murky as to what your vehicle for actual change beyond yourself is... unless this is one of those "I'm but just 1 man" type arguments.

[DeV]

I don't know if you meant me, but I never called for the abolishment of the NAACP. I just pointed out they are a racist organization. I never said they were the same as the Klan either. The Klan acknowledges that they are racists (and are reviled for it), while the NAACP points out that they are merely ensuring that "colored" (not sure who that includes other than you can't be white) Americans receive equality.

I just disagree with an organization that pretends they are against racism when they base their entire ideaology on skin color. I'm positive the NAACP has done good work and even averted what could have been tragic injustices---but I'm still not sure how anyone can say an organization who's measuring stick is skin color isn't racist.Actually, on paper, what is explicitely stated is that they are an organization that advocates for all persons.

How many white people do you know that have been discriminated against because they are black? In fact, does anyone here feel discriminated against because the NAACP hasn't come to his/her aid? Is it the responsibility of the NAACP to seek out examples of white people in need and help them? Do you know of any white people who asked the NAACP for help and were refused because they weren't black?

For all intents and purposes, sure, the NAACP is a racially discriminatory organization who accepts persons of all colors. There are white members.

[DeV]

Then I cant help your reading comprehension skills. Especially when what I've been trying to say all along has also been the opinion I've been saying. :(Actions speak much louder than words. So far the only thing you've actually done is voice an opinion.

[CrystalTears]

What would you do, DeV?

[DeV]

What would you do, DeV?Continue being a realist about racial inequality in America. I'm defending these organizations right to legally exist, so forgive my lack of understanding the nature of your question.

If you are asking what I already do when it comes to combating racism I can provide a few examples for you, but I warn you they are extremely down to earth and so easy that anyone can practice them at virtually anytime. I speak up when I hear a person of any race make a racist remark or joke in my presence. I get to know and befriend people from different ethnic groups. I talk openly with others about racism and discrimination. I read books and articles that are directed at targeted ethnic groups other than my own. I immerse myself in learning about the history and culture of other ethnic groups all over the world.

What do you do, CT? After all, it shouldn't be about what you would do but what you're already doing when it comes to a social issue of this magnitude.

[Gan]

Actions speak much louder than words. So far the only thing you've actually done is voice an opinion.

LOL - actions meaning what? That I should march on congress? That I should attend rallys? That I should write my congressman about perceived areas if discrimination? Stand up to the man?

Newsflash: This is a BBS. PEOPLE GIVE THEIR OPINIONS HERE, THATS WHAT WE DO ON A DISCUSSION BASED BBS. Your actions speak louder than words diversion smacks of the same BS as saying someone should join the military if they support the war so much. (yes, that appeared in a previous thread about the Iraq war).

Here's an action for you. How about living your daily life without looking for excuses to blame racism on. How about NOT supporting ideals, groups, and opinions that support racism, no matter what color they originate from. How about teaching young people that skin color does not make the man, its what's inside that makes the man (character, heart, intellect, responsibility, etc.). Those are the actions I do every day. And acknowledging that an entity that exists legally can still be racist, and therefore wrong. After all, slavery was once legal too.

You're first action (my challenge to you) is to own up to the fact that racism exists on both sides of the fence. And acknowledge that by supporting ideals and entities that partake in racism you understand that you are supporting the very thing that you should be standing agaisnt, racism.

[CrystalTears]

Only because you're telling Gan to prove how to change things, so I asked what you would do. It has to be on both sides of the fence, ya know. :)

And see, I don't tackle anything in the sense of race at all. Hell I don't even realize anyone is black, white, yellow, red or any of that other color bullshit. A person is a person to me, and their actions speak a whole lot louder than their heritage.

Or maybe I'm just looking at it from a priviledged point of view as I haven't run into anyone who feels that their heritage, culture or color has prevented or helped their place in this world at all. I don't see anyone blaming their predecessors for their misfortunes. I run into people who blame themselves for their failures and for their blessings. I'd just like to see more of that.

[Gan]

I keep waiting for Tabor to pop in and sing us a rousing stanza of "Dixie".

[Blazing247]

I can't even believe we are having a discussion about the NAACP not being racist.

Did they come to Imus' defense? Did they attack Imus'?
Did they come to Vick's defense? Did they attack Vick?
Did they come to Duke player's defense? Did they attack the player's?
Did they come to Jena black student's defense? Did they attack the black student's?

Listen, the NAACP is a HATE MONGERING POLITICAL ORGANIZATION. It's not some, "Oh poor me I'm black and can't afford to defend myself, please help me NAACP" organization. They like to make headlines, just like Jackson and Sharpton. You didn't elect them the leaders of the Black Community? Well, too bad, they are, and they are making a mockery of it. You certainly aren't condemning them publicly, that's for sure. This is the way it goes...someone somewhere (WHITEY) does or says something that be considered racist, it's blown up in the media 10x, Jackson and Sharpton begin the smear campaign, the NAACP rears it's ugly head and screams "RAAAAACISM!!!", and before you know it the public sentiment in the black community is in an outrage before any fact's are figured out and not wanting to be labeled a racist there is a massive public apology that once again makes headlines.

I'm not saying the NAACP hasn't fought for and won some good victories for the black community, but they are most certainly at their very foundation racist. There was a girl in CA who wanted to form a caucasian school club, because she wasn't allowed in the Latino or Black club, and sure enough, the NAACP is out and hounding a 13 year old girl. Such freedom fighters, for sure. Freedom for everyone who is black, and nothing else.

So the hate machine lost it's case against the Duke players and they were acquitted... I guess that means that their lives weren't ruined? I'm sure if you ask them they would beg to differ. The president of the NAACP makes a racist remark, and nothing, no outcry, a few articles in the back of a newspaper or two, a Republican sends out a racist email, fucking christ it's the end of the world. Whatever, there is no point in arguing with people who have racial blinders on themselves.

[Latrinsorm]

Unless you mean there are more because of population size differences and there aren't more proportionally, I'm calling bullshit.That's precisely what I mean.
who would watch the watchers?Obviously we'd put the church in charge, duh. The LORD GOD can watch everyone!
Maybe I just don't have the trust in society that you do that with organizations like the NAACP gone everyone would raise up hand in hand and make sure that the minority representation is equal to that of the majority.I don't think that will happen. What I do think is that looking back on history, the people who have engendered real change did not do so divisively. The NAACP, no matter what good it does, is fundamentally divisive: colored people vs. noncolored. It can certainly claim it's working to ensure equality for everyone, but this is where I would say "PROVE IT" if I was DeV.
The Klan, Neo-Nazis, and other White Power Nationalist Organizations are all alive and well and have been for decades longer than groups like the NAACP.You read the part where I said "we should get rid of racist organizations", right? I'll give you 20 bucks if you can find the phrase "black and only black racist organizations" in there.
If you want (all) racism to stop then you'll begin actually addressing (all) racism.I already did, in the very passage you quoted.
Right, unless it pertains to Christian Churchs who in many different ways are corrupt and hypocritical.I would suggest you try backing this up (PROVE IT HURHUR), but I wouldn't want you to waste your time looking for something that doesn't exist.
That isn't remotely what he indicated.It's exactly what he indicated: "What happened in Jenna can not happen to a white person in America.", and he specifically mentioned how the Duke case was different because the lax players involved didn't go to jail.
Both are hispanic organizations who appear to be racially exclusive yet I heve yet to hear their names mentioned in conjunction with perpetuating racism.Ganalon already addressed this (in a post before yours).
Actions speak much louder than words. So far the only thing you've actually done is voice an opinion.It's a good thing you can see everything we've ever done over the Internet, huh? Otherwise that would have been an incredibly stupid statement.

[DeV]

Newsflash: This is a BBS. PEOPLE GIVE THEIR OPINIONS HERE, THATS WHAT WE DO ON A DISCUSSION BASED BBS. You like talking in caps today for some reason, but yeah, I kinda figured that out a couple years ago.


How about living your daily life without looking for excuses to blame racism on. How about taking your own advice. (My challenge to you) is to own up to the fact that no one here has to look for excuses to blame racism on. I also challenge you to show me where I've done this daily or ever on this forum.

How about NOT supporting ideals, groups, and opinions that support racism, no matter what color they originate from. Defending their right to exist doesn't mean I support or even agree with their ideas and opinions. How about learning how to distinguish between the two. You will have to do so as a future lawyer.


How about teaching young people that skin color does not make the man, its what's inside that makes the man (character, heart, intellect, responsibility, etc.). Those are the actions I do every day. Oh, nice, and what organization do you belong to where you have a audience of young people to teach this to everyday (not including your children).

I volunteer as a counselor with my local area YMCA and I'm an affiliate for the summer camp associated where I am in a position to do this, not every day, but whenever the situation persents itself, I never digress.


And acknowledging that an entity that exists legally can still be racist, and therefore wrong. After all, slavery was once legal too.That's not hard to do at all. Discrimination is abundant in this country. Welcome to America.

For all intents and purposes, sure, the NAACP is a racially discriminatory organization who accepts persons of all colors. There are white members. Done.


You're first action (my challenge to you) is to own up to the fact that racism exists on both sides of the fence. It most certainly does exist on both sides of the fence and I've never said otherwise.


And acknowledge that by supporting ideals and entities that partake in racism you understand that you are supporting the very thing that you should be standing agaisnt, racism.Like the government, churches, race, gender, and sex exclusive organizations? Sure, but again, defending an entities right to exist doesn't mean one automatically agrees with the notions and ideas of that entity.


These are private organizations that do not receive federal funding, which ultimately grants them the right to be selective in their membership and act in a manner appropriate to their beliefs. Welcome to America where discrimination is legal and practiced not only by some of our very own government instutions, but also by the church you happen to be associated with and many others.

[DeV]

I'd just like to see more of that.Open your eyes and you will. I see the same thing, but I'm not ignorant enough to think that as priviledged as I've been there are others who don't have it ten times harder of any race, not just black people.

[Warriorbird]

Hating on the NAACP will TOTALLY STOP RACISM!

Y'all are geniuses.

[DeV]

I can't even believe we are having a discussion about the NAACP not being racist.

Did they come to Imus' defense? Did they attack Imus'?
Did they come to Vick's defense? Did they attack Vick?
Did they come to Duke player's defense? Did they attack the player's?
Did they come to Jena black student's defense? Did they attack the black student's?

I can play this game too.

Did Imus ask the NAACP to come to his defense? Did Vick ask the NAACP to come to his defense? Did the Duke players ask the NAACP to come to their defense? Did they come to the Jena students defense right away?

When you have the answers to those questions let's talk some more.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Blazing247
I can't even believe we are having a discussion about the NAACP not being racist.

I don't believe anyone (at least that I've noticed) is arguing with you that the NAACP isn't inherently racist, people are arguing whether or not it's a necessary organization at this point in time.