Jena, LA 6 Charged with Attempted Murder Up to 100 yrs

[CrystalTears]

Open your eyes and you will. I see the same thing, but I'm not ignorant enough to think that as priviledged as I've been there are others who don't have it ten times harder of any race, not just black people.
I like you, DeV, but you're getting like Daniel that unless I am black, or personally know of some black person yelling at the top of his voice of the injustices in this world, I pretend it doesn't exist. I'm really getting sick of it. I'm aware that it exists, I just happen to live in a place where people take personal responsibility for their life, of all races and don't need some organization to give it to the white man for them.

[Sean]

I find that entirely impossible to believe, but if it's true thats great for you and your family :)

[Warriorbird]

Connecticut being 86% white helps too I'm sure. None the less, http://www.naacpct.org/ still exists.

[Recal]

Racist frat party (http://www.examiner.com/a-371271~Johns_Hopkins_fraternity_suspended_after_ra cially_themed_Halloween_party.html)

Happened at my school last year, NAACP got involved with the BSU here pretty quickly to try to crucify the devious ringleader who sent out a joke of a facebook invite. Then they found it out was just an 18 year old asian kid who started it and the controversy died off.

Funniest part was that the NAACP politic'd to get the frat suspended, which only prevented the frat from doing their yearly haunted house for local disenfranchised youth. The "racist" pirate hanging was a prop they had used in this the year before, it's a Pirates of the Carribean prop/toy/whatever. But the protesters claimed that the frat was advocating lynching.

[Blazing247]

Tijay, there were arguments against the NAACP being racist, which is what led to that post. If you acknowledge that it's racist, but consider it a necessary evil, that is some odd logic. Just who decides what is necessary and what isn't? What mile marker are you looking for that will one day make a lightbulb go off for you to think, 'hey, it's not necessary anymore"? How do you measure equality, if not by the laws on the books? Are we talking perceived equality, or actual equality? I guess I just don't know how you're measuring the need for the NAACP.

[Blazing247]

Also, people like Duke are widely considered fucking nutbag jerkoff's by every white person I've ever met, yet Sharpton and Jackson somehow get such phenomenal support from the black community. I don't get it?

[Warriorbird]

Attacking the NAACP is totally the way to end racism. I mean..without it there'd be no racism at all!

Sharpton and Jackson are the exact same as David Duke!

I mean...the NAACP is just like the KKK!

Way to go, Blazing!

[Blazing247]

I never said anything about ending racism. Until the day this world explodes there will be racism. My notion was that there shouldn't be entities that exist to PROMOTE racism in this day and age, like the NAACP does. And yes, Sharpton and Jackson are exactly like David Duke, do some research on their crusades and enlighten yourself. I didn't say a fucking word about the KKK did I shitbird? Exactly.

[Daniel]

I like you, DeV, but you're getting like Daniel that unless I am black, or personally know of some black person yelling at the top of his voice of the injustices in this world, I pretend it doesn't exist. I'm really getting sick of it. I'm aware that it exists, I just happen to live in a place where people take personal responsibility for their life, of all races and don't need some organization to give it to the white man for them.


Lol. I'm glad you are getting sick of me doing something I've never done or suggested.

If you actually knew me, or anything about me beyond what is posted on these boards than you'd probably be laughing as hard as I am right now. Alas, you will just have to deal with my lol.

[Warriorbird]

Duke's a former Grand Wizard. It isn't exactly begging the question. He talks in favor of racial segregation and white seperatism.

You're fucking nuts, Blazing. Sharpton and Jackson may've done some highly questionable things in their time but extortion is entirely different from what Duke's been repeatedly guilty of (though he's apparently guilty of that too.)

[CrystalTears]

Connecticut being 86% white helps too I'm sure. None the less, http://www.naacpct.org/ still exists.
Helps what? Me? Cause I'm not necessarily considered white, I'm Cuban. Although here people think I'm Puerto Rican because that's who are predominately here. And yet I work with people from all races, creeds, nationalities, cultures, and live around people of all kinds as well, and yet I don't hear the white man keeps any of them down.:shrug:

Besides, I'm not necessarily for getting rid of NAACP, I just don't feel that they are THAT necessary in this day and age. However if taking them away means taking away the KKK, then I'd be totally gung ho for it.

[CrystalTears]

Lol. I'm glad you are getting sick of me doing something I've never done or suggested.

If you actually knew me, or anything about me beyond what is posted on these boards than you'd probably be laughing as hard as I am right now. Alas, you will just have to deal with my lol.
Considering that yes, all I have to go on is how you present yourself on these boards, you do come off as someone who believes that anyone who doesn't see it in the same exact light as you is automatically a racist. You've done it to PB, you've done it to others, so it's not just me that sees you that way.

[Warriorbird]

You're acting as though the NAACP is just about "the white man keeping people down." And even if that's just what they're about...without organization the civil rights movement frankly would not have ever happened. For as many troublesome incidents as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have been through they are NOT the organization...and they've called to attention things like the Diallo shootings (probably why Blazing wants to liken the NAACP to the KKK...he's bitter about that.)

Likening the NAACP to white supremacist individuals or organizations is a pretty cheap copout from addressing anything real. Suggesting that ending the NAACP would end the KKK is also fucking wacky.

[thefarmer]

Tijay, there were arguments against the NAACP being racist, which is what led to that post. If you acknowledge that it's racist, but consider it a necessary evil, that is some odd logic. Just who decides what is necessary and what isn't? What mile marker are you looking for that will one day make a lightbulb go off for you to think, 'hey, it's not necessary anymore"? How do you measure equality, if not by the laws on the books? Are we talking perceived equality, or actual equality? I guess I just don't know how you're measuring the need for the NAACP.

I measure the need for the NAACP in the amount of incidents like Jenna that occur (Not necessarily what Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton deem good press).

In today's society, there will always be a need for groups like the NAACP to stand up for minority people (Black, yellow, blue pink orange skinned people alike). If there's ever a time, in the future, when white people are a minority, then sure, I'd be all for a NAAWP (Which sounds so country, by the way).

[thefarmer]

Also, people like Duke are widely considered fucking nutbag jerkoff's by every white person I've ever met, yet Sharpton and Jackson somehow get such phenomenal support from the black community. I don't get it?

Just because YOU don't get it, doesn't mean that the difference between Duke and Sharpton/Jackson isn't there.

[Kefka]

Helps what? Me? Cause I'm not necessarily considered white, I'm Cuban. Although here people think I'm Puerto Rican because that's who are predominately here. And yet I work with people from all races, creeds, nationalities, cultures, and live around people of all kinds as well, and yet I don't hear the white man keeps any of them down.:shrug:

Besides, I'm not necessarily for getting rid of NAACP, I just don't feel that they are THAT necessary in this day and age. However if taking them away means taking away the KKK, then I'd be totally gung ho for it.


Only if you ignore what's going on in Jena.

[CrystalTears]

Only if you ignore what's going on in Jena.
Who said I'm ignoring it? It's incredibly unfair what's going on with that. I've already said that I'd like to see more people who are colorblind. What exactly would you like me to do?

[Warriorbird]

Stop playing into the "let's attack civil rights groups! They're racist!" game?

[TheEschaton]

You're seriously suggesting that white people are never prosecuted overzealously to the point of incarceration? Ever?

Yes.

White people are notoriously underprosecuted.

[Kefka]

Who said I'm ignoring it? It's incredibly unfair what's going on with that. I've already said that I'd like to see more people who are colorblind. What exactly would you like me to do?

You said there was no need for the NAACP in this day and age. Jena is a perfect example of why they and groups like them are still needed.

[CrystalTears]

Stop playing into the "let's attack civil rights groups! They're racist!" game?
Thankfully I've never said that. I'm more against the KKK than anything else.

[Daniel]

Gan you are so unbelievably stupid that is unfathomable.



But its ok to have black racism in America. I get it now. Your point is loud and clear, and sad.

Could have fooled me. PS. I'm the furthest you'll find to being racist here on these boards. So your attempt to paint me as one is failing miserably.
So again, its OK if you practice discrimination as long as others are going to do it. Stellar reasoning there bub. Stellar.



You obviously don't get my point. Allow me to further clarify, with the beginning distinction that I have not made any determinations on whether or not you are racist. I really don't care, as I'm likely to never meet you and even if we did, you would have no effect on my life whatsoever.

That said, ending "Racism", in my opinion is simply not attainable. People are not going to like me because I'm black, people are going to hate me because I'm white, people are going to hate me because i'm tall.

That's life. I don't give a shit.

The problem occurs when there is a tangible manifestation of that hate that is institutionalized as it was in America.

In short, the issue in America is not of "Racism" it's about Injustice. Racism is only significant as it contributed to injustice in America. There are similar problems with economic status and gender, which I am equally passionate and dedicated to. It just so happens that race is the only one that gets brought up on this board.




Here's a newsflash for you... as long as you support discrimination in any form then expect reciprocation because there are millions of others who are taking your same mentality to task with this issue. So much for the high ground eh?


I'm not supporting discrimination. I am supporting the promotion of individual groups in the face of discrimination. This in turn requires a certain amount of bias, and selectivity. If you wish to call it discrimination, then fine. The distinction still lies in the impetuous of the actions.

No doubt your apathy towards this distinction lies in the fact that you do not have to deal with the effects that it's omission would entail. That is your perogative and I do not begrudge you this. However, do not sit here as if you somehow have the moral high ground. You do not.



I see your distinction, its full of excuses and crutches and resentment on whats happened before while turning a blind eye to your own perspective, behavior, and practice. Good luck with that. Let me know how it turns out for you.

You see an excuse. I see a reason. As for how well it will turn out for me...


It's turned out quite well actually. I've done quite well for myself. Thank you for asking.




You're assuming that a wet entity is reactionary against a bet channel and that its sole purpose is to discriminate against. Again, your perspective is screwed up (actually its just blind to only one side). Really screwed up. I bet you see racism in every step you take in your waking life. Thats sad, really sad. I feel sorry for the people that have to deal with you when you are so quick to throw out the race card when things dont go your way. Face it, as long as there are folks who are like you, white or black, racism will continue to exist. That should make you feel proud to keep up the momentum on this issue.

Actually, I never throw out the race card in my life. I succeed based upon my own merits and to do otherwise would be an affront to my ancestors who *really* struggled so that I could be where I am today.

But that is neither here nor there.

The point is that there is racial inequality in America. If that's "Playing the Race card" than guilty as charged.



Are you kidding me? So all black organizations, even the ones who exclude participation of others of different races or cultures are there to meet the needs of the African American community? LOL, give me a break. If its discriminatory then its racist. By your logic, then the needs of the AA comunity is one of racism.


No. What the black community needs is equal opportunity within the country. However, that is not currently the case and that means that entities that promote black opportunity over white is neccessary to level the playing field.



And WTF is an African American? You're either an American or you're not. Dont give me that African American label bullshit. Get over your identity crisis please. You're not from Africa. You were born in America, you're American.



If this were even remotely true than you wouldn't see the large racial disparities that you do.

If this were true then this thread wouldn't even exist.

Spare me the dumb shit.

You forget that I've fought and bled for this country. So just stop.


So you speak for both the black community and the white community now. God Damn you're impressive. (and full of shit it seems)


Funny how having brown skin works.



So you do support reparations, just not for you. Got it, thanks.


No. I don't. It's telling that you couldn't see the point I was trying to make.

I don't believe in reparations. They are not what the black community needs. They need to have access to better services, and to stop being systematicly suppressed by the judicial system, among other things.




Ahh, the old 'its ok because they're doing it too excuse'. Again with the high road.
Newsflash, I never said it was about me. In fact, I demonstrated where it can be said it does the movement to abolish discrimination harm to continue to support and practice events that are exclusory by race, such as the example given of the MBA pageant. Way to totally miss the target there Robin Hood.



The problem here is that you are putting the Onus on the victim. You seem to suggest that if the NAACP were to cease to exist that racism would stop in America tomorrow. It won't and I won't even comment on your intelligence if you actually think that.



Black schools? I guess Brown v. BOE was thrown out without my knowledge? You mean schools, inner city, rural, suburban. Underfunded schools are not exclusive to areas that are predominately black. You must be watching the news with your black colored glasses on...


I mean the disporportionately underfunded black schools.



And yes, all criminals are innocent, especially black ones. Excuse me while I say niggah please. Every inmate that is currently incarcerated is not there for singing too loudly in church. Are there bad judges, you betcha.... Are there bad DA's, you betcha


A couple of "bad apples" does not translate into a 7 to 1 ratio for incareration across the entire prison population in America. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid.



. Nifong is the most recent example of one finally overturned. So as long as you perceive injustice then its ok to continue to practice your own brand if discrimination. Eye for an eye and all that. Maybe someday you'll wake up and realize there's a better solution and that it doesnt involve retribution but moving past whats been done and proactively seeking to correct any and all examples of discrimination. Doubtful, but yea, we can all dream a dream.
Its an example of discrimination and racism on the other side of the fence. If you cant deal with it at least acknowledge it and suggest that something needs to be done about it. At least admit that if you're going to admit there's a problem then you have to admit that there's areas within your own culture that need cleaning up in order to take ownership in improving things for the future. Sitting back and waiting for everyone else to fix their problems while you carry on with the status quo is only going to get you called a hypocrit and probably laughed at as being non-credible.


I do admit that there are things that need cleaning up. If you want proof, feel free to check out this event I am in charge of: http://american.facebook.com/group.php?gid=4800267295&ref=mf

That is not the point.

The point is that there is inequality in america and that active steps have to be taken to alleviate that.

Was the DA in the Duke rape case wrong? Absolutely. Was his discipline appropriate? Damn right. Is that indicative of the status quo in America? Absolutely not.



Considering your current views on whitey and that racism doesnt exist in black america... I dont expect you to believe anything that goes against whats ingrained in your thought process.


Not Really. My mother is white and I actually like her, but nice try.


No you dont, and I dont have much pain, just pity and a little sadness that you choose to perpetuate the problem instead of seeking a solution.



Lol. So you feel pain Ganalon? What pain have you felt at the hands of the African American community?

[quote]Just admit that you're a racist and that you're proud of it so we can move on to the next topic. Seriously, it will make you feel better to come out of the closet.

Nah. feel free to think so.

[Daniel]

Considering that yes, all I have to go on is how you present yourself on these boards, you do come off as someone who believes that anyone who doesn't see it in the same exact light as you is automatically a racist. You've done it to PB, you've done it to others, so it's not just me that sees you that way.

I've called PB and Blazing a racist because they are. I have not done it to anyone else, and it has everythign to do with their words and their perceptions and absolutely nothing to do with them "disagreeing with me".

Example: I don't agree with you, but I don't think you are racist. I just think you are stupid.

I hope that makes you feel better.

[Blazing247]

Whatever makes you feel better. I don't hate you because you're black, I hate you because you're an ignorant bitch, Daniel.

Your only retort to anything is----- racist. Racist racist racist. It makes it easier for you to ignore someone when you can lump them in a neat little basket, so I'll lump you in the idiot basket and go on my way.

[Daniel]

Besides, I'm not necessarily for getting rid of NAACP, I just don't feel that they are THAT necessary in this day and age. However if taking them away means taking away the KKK, then I'd be totally gung ho for it.

Case in point of your stupidity. So now the responsibility of doing away with racism is on the victims?

I'm sorry, but you must be retarded if you think people that have been marginalized members of a society are going to give up an organization that promotes their well being on the faulty premise that it may do away with one of the most notorious perpetrators of that marginalization.

That's akin to hippies saying if you just put down the guns then you will have world peace. Or that if the US wants peace than it should dismantle it's national security apparatus. Somehow, I doubt you support that.

[DeV]

I like you, DeV, but you're getting like Daniel that unless I am black, or personally know of some black person yelling at the top of his voice of the injustices in this world, I pretend it doesn't exist. I'm really getting sick of it. I'm aware that it exists, I just happen to live in a place where people take personal responsibility for their life, of all races and don't need some organization to give it to the white man for them.Wow, did you even read my reply or did you just decide to post based on what you thought I said? I said to open your eyes in reference to you saying you don't see enough of this:
I run into people who blame themselves for their failures and for their blessings. I'd just like to see more of that. Where exactly did I say you had to be black to know it existed or that you are pretending that it doesn't? I see a lot of people take responsibility for their station in life. I see a lot of black people who've never come into contact with the NAACP or any representatives of the organization because they take accountability for the things that happen in their lives. More than I see the reverse actually, and if you're saying you see a lot of people blame whitey then that's you.

If I'm getting to be more like Daniel in how I come across to you because of one thread then you are welcome to put me on ignore or continue voicing your own opinions to me as long as they actually make sense and are in context with what I'm stating or replying to. This is the second time you've not comprehended what I've stated and decided to reply to something of your own choosing. I never once suggested that you don't know of the injustices of this world. You are a minority yourself and I recognize this. Hell, it's brought up in just about every other thread on the boards. If I did suggest as much then show me where.

[Daniel]

Whatever makes you feel better. I don't hate you because you're black, I hate you because you're an ignorant bitch, Daniel.

Your only retort to anything is----- racist. Racist racist racist. It makes it easier for you to ignore someone when you can lump them in a neat little basket, so I'll lump you in the idiot basket and go on my way.

Don't worry. I've told you plenty of times that you've been in my idiot basket for quite some time. I don't know why you think I care.

[TheEschaton]

Wow, you people who compare the KKK to the NAACP are fucking CRAZY.

First of all, David Duke and the KKK wage a systematic campaign of terror as their only agenda, and have KILLED PEOPLE. I'd love to see the evidence that this is what the NAACP and Jesse/Al (who are, by the way, not at all in the hierarchy of the NAACP) have done.

Secondly, the NAACP has many, many, many white people in their ranks. Hell, I know quite a few Jewish NAACP lawyers. They are not a racist organization which excludes all other races from their ranks. They are merely an organization who serves a racial community in a "protection of rights" capacity, not a "destroy the others" capacity. That they have to hound 13 year old girls is emblematic of how much the white person in this country JUST DOESN'T FUCKING GET IT. A white girl doesn't NEED a white club. This country is far more white than black, your club is the public setting. Affinity groups are merely that - groups of people who can understand what perspective you are coming from.

And guess what? In places like India, and Africa, where there ARE vast minorities of white people....they DO have white clubs. And no one cares.

-TheE-

[Recal]

A couple of "bad apples" does not translate into a 7 to 1 ratio for incareration across the entire prison population in America. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid.

What exactly DOES translate in the "7 to 1" ratio then, in your view? Since asians are about even with whites, and hispanics are about 2:1.

[DeV]

Otherwise that would have been an incredibly stupid statement.You mean like most of the drivel you post kind of stupid?

[Daniel]

What exactly DOES translate in the "7 to 1" ratio then, in your view? Since asians are about even with whites, and hispanics are about 2:1.

I don't understand the point you were trying to make. However, I will clarify mine.

In America, the average incarceration rates for whites for similar offenses is 1\7 of that for blacks. This means that if a black man and a white man are convicted for the same crime than the average black man will serve 7 years for the white man's 1.

My point was that the case of the Duke Lacrosse team, while apprehensible, is not indicative of the same sort of systematic problem.

[Recal]

I'm trying to figure out why you feel the American justice system is "out to get" blacks because of that ratio.

Do you feel the justice system specifically treat asians the same as whites, and it feels hispanics are proportionally worse than whites but better than blacks?

[Daniel]

I just told you why I think that. Is it that difficult to comprehend? I work in the government. I'm not suggesting that there is some master plan to suppress the black population, I am pointing out that there is a SIGNIFICANT disparity between the two different rates and that is a matter that needs to be addressed. The same thing for hispanic and asian incarceration rates.

However, I will be honest and say that I am not familiar with any significant issues facing the Asian community because of incarceration rates.

My gut reaction is that this is because Asians are not significantly represented in the prison propulation whereas the hispanic and black community are grossly disporportionately so.

[TheEschaton]

I'm trying to figure out why you feel the American justice system is "out to get" blacks because of that ratio.

Do you feel the justice system specifically treat asians the same as whites, and it feels hispanics are proportionally worse than whites but better than blacks?

Yes.

Don't you people ever study race studies in school? Asians have positive stereotypes in society, while hispanics and blacks have negative stereotypes.

[Recal]

You explained what a ratio was, when I asked why you think that raito occurred. Is THAT so difficult to understand?

So, if it is not a grand government conspiracy to keep the black man down, why do you think this ratio exists? It can never be addressed unless you find the cause to address.

[Warriorbird]

He seems to have for him at the least. I think some of the ratio has to do with less access to good lawyers amongst black defendants but you can't pin all of it on that.

[Daniel]

The cause is that some white people don't like black people.

And yes there are ways to address that without making white people like black people. It involves oversight and accountability.

[Recal]

So, then, you believe that whites, asians, hispanics and blacks all have the exact same amount of crime/population, but there's a differing rate of incarceration for those crimes?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Blazing247
Tijay, there were arguments against the NAACP being racist, which is what led to that post.

I must have missed them, my mistake.


If you acknowledge that it's racist, but consider it a necessary evil, that is some odd logic. Just who decides what is necessary and what isn't? What mile marker are you looking for that will one day make a lightbulb go off for you to think, 'hey, it's not necessary anymore"? How do you measure equality, if not by the laws on the books? Are we talking perceived equality, or actual equality? I guess I just don't know how you're measuring the need for the NAACP.[/i]

I acknowledge that it's a racist organization in that it's primary goal is to advance "colored" people. But I'd argue that Black people are clearly not the only people to benefit from the actions of the NAACP. Anyway, how do I cope with acknowledging their bias while accepting that they are still a necessary entity? I look at the fact that they are still constantly in the courts fighting for equalities via their LDF which to me says they are still on this day (9/7/07) a relevant organization. Whose picking up those fights if the NAACP disbands? The ACLU?

[Warriorbird]

So, then, you believe that whites, asians, hispanics and blacks all have the exact same amount of crime/population, but there's a differing rate of incarceration for those crimes?

Is this going to lead to you quoting the Bell Curve? I very nearly posted a response. If so I'm glad I caught myself.

[Daniel]

So, then, you believe that whites, asians, hispanics and blacks all have the exact same amount of crime/population, but there's a differing rate of incarceration for those crimes?

No. Not at allt his isn't about incarceration rates across races, this is about average sentencing across crimes by race.

I.e. A white man commits assault. Gets 3 months.

A black man commits assault. Gets 21 months.

[thefarmer]

I just told you why I think that. Is it that difficult to comprehend? I work in the government. I'm not suggesting that there is some master plan to suppress the black population, I am pointing out that there is a SIGNIFICANT disparity between the two different rates and that is a matter that needs to be addressed. The same thing for hispanic and asian incarceration rates.

However, I will be honest and say that I am not familiar with any significant issues facing the Asian community because of incarceration rates.

My gut reaction is that this is because Asians are not significantly represented in the prison propulation whereas the hispanic and black community are grossly disporportionately so.

Asians don't go to jail. We just commit ritual suicide when we hear the cops banging on our door.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Recal]

No. Not at allt his isn't about incarceration rates across races, this is about average sentencing across crimes by race.


Then why mention the ratio for incarceration rates? Do you have the numbers on average sentencing handy? All I ever see are the rates.

Also, isn't sentencing determined on a case by case basis? If you acknowledge that various races could incur differing rates of crime per populus, could the sentencing differences simply be a similar variance? For example, if it's possible that blacks commit more crimes per 100,000, couldn't their average crime be more severe within each bracket?

[Daniel]

I am talking about average sentencing rates. The ratio is the average for whites versus the average for blacks PER CRIME.

I am talking about comparable crimes, not crimes in general.

So, the answer to your fourth and fifth questions is no.

It is as I have outlined above.

NOT: Black man commits murder gets 20 years

\

White man commits tax Evasion, gets 4 years.

[Warriorbird]

Even if you toss in a bunch of factors such as severity, repeat offending, aggravated stuff related to weapon use...

...basically you do as much as you can to make it NOT a race thing? Black people still get sentenced to do roughly 10% more time than white people do.

If you take death penalty versus life in prison cases...the likelihood that a black person will die versus a white is statistically much higher than that. You're almost twice as likely to die if you're black.

EDIT: That 10% more figure is for crime as a whole. The common 7 to 1 figure is for possession.

[Recal]

Where did I state I was comparing different crimes? The fact that the range of sentences for any single crime is so large shows that for each specific crime there are large amounts of mitigating circumstances.

You stated that it is possible that different races have different base rates of crimes committed.

Why is it impossible that they have different base rates of mitigating circumstances?

One "factor" WB didn't mention was geography. No numbers handy, but when you think hard crime, you think cities. You also think of the racial disparities of population in these areas. Judges that give out the sentences in these type of areas likely both see far more violent crime and are expected politically to take a tougher stance on these crimes. So, if city judges are giving out harsher punishments than rural judges, and the populations have very different racial consistancies, the outcome will be longer average sentences for minorities.

I think it's a topic that has too many variables to say anything definitively. I especially find it hard to believe that with as transparent as the system is today, that "some white people don't like black people" affects enough judges to cause such huge disparities.

[thefarmer]

I think it's a topic that has too many variables to say anything definitively. I especially find it hard to believe that with as transparent as the system is today, that "some white people don't like black people" affects enough judges to cause such huge disparities.

It's BECAUSE the system is so transparent, that the numbers supporting WB and Daniel's claims can be found.

[Recal]

Except the numbers they quoted didn't necessarily represent every variable present. Like I stated, WB's didn't mention geographical disparities. Statistics are very easy to slant either way, and it's practically impossible to calculate every variable possible.

[Sean]

I'd assume geography would be part of "...basically you do as much as you can to make it NOT a race thing?"

[Recal]

Feel free to reference the actual study if so. I'm genuinely curious to see how they'd incorporate all of those variables into one nicely wrapped percentage.

Though even then I don't know if it would be possible to differentiate the remainder between "racist white judges" and a racial propensity for mitigation.

[Gan]

Gan you are so unbelievably stupid that is unfathomable.
At least we feel the same about each other then. I was worried that I had always thought you were a blithering idiot and that you didnt feel the same. Glad I dont have to shoulder that guilt.



I'm not supporting discrimination. I am supporting the promotion of individual groups in the face of discrimination. This in turn requires a certain amount of bias, and selectivity. If you wish to call it discrimination, then fine. The distinction still lies in the impetuous of the actions. A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. As long as you feel the need to support racist/discriminatory entities and ideals, for whatever reason or excuse, then you are no different than the others whom you are trying to counteract.



No doubt your apathy towards this distinction lies in the fact that you do not have to deal with the effects that it's omission would entail. That is your perogative and I do not begrudge you this. However, do not sit here as if you somehow have the moral high ground. You do not. I dont have the moral high ground. I'm simply offering up a perspective from someone who sees it equal on both sides, and in effect arguing for the case that as long as it exists it will continue to foster more teaching of discrimination to those who dont have their eyes open. There is no thing as racism proliferation. Stockpiling ideals and entities on one side will not negate the occurrence on the other, it just encourages more growth. Racism is not a zero sum game.




Actually, I never throw out the race card in my life. I succeed based upon my own merits and to do otherwise would be an affront to my ancestors who *really* struggled so that I could be where I am today. Your posts here on the PC in the past say otherwise. Perhaps you just dont interpret your own words in that manner.



The point is that there is racial inequality in America. And with viewpoints as you've expressed in this thread, there always will be. Looks like you're secure in your belief as long as thats happening, nevermind that you're one of the propegators. ;)



No. What the black community needs is equal opportunity within the country. Elaborate on this please.


However, that is not currently the case and that means that entities that promote black opportunity over white is neccessary to level the playing field. These entities arent levelling the playing field, they're just causing more barriers to be created, on both sides.





If this were even remotely true than you wouldn't see the large racial disparities that you do. Mind demonstrating these large racial disparities?



You forget that I've fought and bled for this country. So just stop. I'll stop when you stop having your identity crisis. Or should I adopt a surtitle such as European American, or Scottish American, or Spainish American, or whatever else I can tie relation to with my ancestry? I'm an American, bottom line. I dont need some silly differentiator to make me feel special or significant.


I don't believe in reparations. They are not what the black community needs. They need to have access to better services, and to stop being systematicly suppressed by the judicial system, among other things.
In your opinion, what services dont they have access to? And I'm still not buying your judicial disparity statistics. First of all, they're statistics, bend them however you wish to fit your goals. Second, if the judicial system is such an issue, then perhaps you should work on teaching the idea that if you dont break the law, you wont be arrested, ergo you wont be 'unfairly' tried and sentenced... what a concept! http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/icons/icon3.gif



The problem here is that you are putting the Onus on the victim. You seem to suggest that if the NAACP were to cease to exist that racism would stop in America tomorrow. It won't and I won't even comment on your intelligence if you actually think that. Congrats, your reading comprehension has now achieved negative status. I've never claimed the NAACP is racist. Unless you're telling me that white people can not apply or particpate in NAACP activities and membeship. Let me explain again, I find any organization or entity that prevents the participation of others based on color, creed, religion, natural origin, etc. is discriminatory and racist. And, because of that, the entities that base their existence on abolishing discrimination and racism and yet practices it within its own organizational structure is hypocrisy at its finest, and overall destructive to society and the effort to move the American culture past discrimination and bigotry. Please read that again so it sinks in.





I mean the disporportionately underfunded black schools. There are black only schools? :wtf: When did this happen? Underfunded schools of all races can be found all over America. Its not special to your neck of the woods brother. Quit thinking that you're the only victim of our nations educational system, because you arent.




The point is that there is inequality in america and that active steps have to be taken to alleviate that. I agree, but take it one step further on the credibility scale. Fight it with entities that arent hypocritical so the rest of American will give it a legitimate thought instead of passing it off as another racist group clamoring about what can America do for them.


Was the DA in the Duke rape case wrong? Absolutely. Was his discipline appropriate? Damn right. Is that indicative of the status quo in America? Absolutely not. Its a start.


Not Really. My mother is white and I actually like her, but nice try. Your words here say otherwise.



Lol. So you feel pain Ganalon? What pain have you felt at the hands of the African American community? I've been denied employment 3 times for city government positions because of minority quotas. Furthermore it took my wife 5 years of successive application before acceptance into a state nursing school due to minority applicants being given greater consideration over unimportant things such as grades and prerequisites for the program. I spent 4 years of highschool fighting a fuckfied east texas hillbilly bigotry because I identified with and chose to spend a majority of my time with the guys I was in athletics with, which was majorily black. I was a white uncle tom at my highschool because I didnt fit in with the shit kickers that permeated the remainder of the majority of where I had to attend jr.high/high school. Two of my three best friends in highschool were black even though I'm white. Now magnify that treatment x 10 when I got home to a very narrowminded and undeducated step father who thought all the worlds social ills were due to the blacks and hispanics, and that I was no better because thats who I hung out with.

I'm no stranger to what you experience at the hands of the ignorant and racist. However, fighting back with different forms of racism just gives the other side fuel to continue its efforts. If you really want to make change, then clean house where you have the most influence, work smarter against those who do discriminate and bring the behavior out in the open, and let society judge them without giving anyone the opportunity to assail your credibility. Quit giving them ammunition and eventually they'll run out.

[thefarmer]

I agree, but take it one step further on the credibility scale. Fight it with entities that arent hypocritical so the rest of American will give it a legitimate thought instead of passing it off as another racist group clamoring about what can America do for them.-Gan

Like what type of entities? Can you name one that exists today that fights for the rights of everyone equally?

[Stanley Burrell]

Not Really. My mother is white and I actually like her, but nice try.
Your words here say otherwise.

If we took a couple PGA tours away from Tiger Woods and had him try to hail a cab in The City; despite his indefinite half-Asian heritage ... He's still, undoubtedly, very, extremely "black." And it would be evident in every subtle racial way possible.

In other words:

:nono:

[Liberi Fatali]

I keep waiting for Tabor to pop in and sing us a rousing stanza of "Dixie".

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern Rights hurrah! Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue flag that bears a single star!

[Gan]

-Gan

Like what type of entities? Can you name one that exists today that fights for the rights of everyone equally?

The largest one that comes to mind is the ACLU. I'm not a fan of the ACLU for their population of liberal wackjobs; however, they are good at what they do, and color is not a barrier for them.

I participate on the local level with our town hall/neighborhood meetings with our city councelman as well as volunteer at my son's school for the afterschool latch-key kid program. I choose to combat it through teaching/coaching moreso than through the political arena.

What entities can you think of?

[Gan]

Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern Rights hurrah! Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue flag that bears a single star!


:lol:

Welcome to the thread Tabor.

[Sean of the Thread]

What a douche.

[thefarmer]

The largest one that comes to mind is the ACLU. I'm not a fan of the ACLU for their population of liberal wackjobs; however, they are good at what they do, and color is not a barrier for them.

I participate on the local level with our town hall/neighborhood meetings with our city councelman as well as volunteer at my son's school for the afterschool latch-key kid program. I choose to combat it through teaching/coaching moreso than through the political arena.

What entities can you think of?

Like yourself, the ACLU is what came to mind as well when it comes to nationwide clout. Though I do agree they do have some wackjob members (Not necessarily only libral), but what orginization doesn't?

I do have another question. Since you consider that participation in your local town hall/neighborhood meetings(Which I think everyone should do, bytheway) is combating racism (among other things, I assume), can you give an example of an issue where you addressed racism directly?

[TheEschaton]

A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. As long as you feel the need to support racist/discriminatory entities and ideals, for whatever reason or excuse, then you are no different than the others whom you are trying to counteract.

Errr, he's saying organizations such as the NAACP which support unity in the face of discrimination ARE NOT DISCRIMINATORY. Just because you say they are a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing doesn't make it so.

Unless, of course, you consider the French Resistance during WWII to also be discriminatory because it helped French people and not Germans.

-TheE-

[Gan]

I do have another question. Since you consider that participation in your local town hall/neighborhood meetings(Which I think everyone should do, bytheway) is combating racism (among other things, I assume), can you give an example of an issue where you addressed racism directly?

I've not had the privledge to actively fight direct racism as it pertains to my involvement in the town hall/neighborhood meetings yet, since I've only been working directly with this group for about 18 months.

I've had opportunities on numerous occasions with my volunteering with the latch key kids in dealing with how they co-exist with kids of different color/cultures in the activities we do in the afterschool program. Its very rewarding to sit down with 7/8/9 year olds and talk with them (especially after an altercation) and talk about why it happend, what they were feeling, listening to their reasoning and logic and then looking at how someone with different skin color is really no different as a person, thus shouldnt be treated any differently.

Reality says that this is a learned behavior that the child picks up from his home environment. Reality also says that my efforts on the whole are very small as compared to the child's exposure to that home environment. But I simply hope that in any instance, it causes the child to question the idea further and let understanding plant a seed. But I refuse to let that reality discourage me from volunteering with the kids, and I adamantly refuse to believe that somewhere, somehow, I will get through to one of them during one of those discussions and that it will influence their behavior and perception later on.

Now, answer your own question. What do you do about it?

[Gan]

Errr, he's saying organizations such as the NAACP which support unity in the face of discrimination ARE NOT DISCRIMINATORY. Just because you say they are a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing doesn't make it so. -TheE-
...


Congrats, your reading comprehension has now achieved negative status. I've never claimed the NAACP is racist. Unless you're telling me that white people can not apply or particpate in NAACP activities and membeship. Let me explain again, I find any organization or entity that prevents the participation of others based on color, creed, religion, natural origin, etc. is discriminatory and racist. And, because of that, the entities that base their existence on abolishing discrimination and racism and yet practices it within its own organizational structure is hypocrisy at its finest, and overall destructive to society and the effort to move the American culture past discrimination and bigotry. Please read that again so it sinks in.

[TheEschaton]

Then why the fuck has this thread gone to 32 pages?

[Sean]

The largest one that comes to mind is the ACLU. I'm not a fan of the ACLU for their population of liberal wackjobs; however, they are good at what they do, and color is not a barrier for them.

I participate on the local level with our town hall/neighborhood meetings with our city councelman as well as volunteer at my son's school for the afterschool latch-key kid program. I choose to combat it through teaching/coaching moreso than through the political arena.

What entities can you think of?

Out of curiousity does the ACLU represent individual persons or just legal precedents?

[Gan]

Out of curiousity does the ACLU represent individual persons or just legal precedents?

I would think both. At least thats my perception of the organization. I've never needed their services... yet.

[Warriorbird]

They represent both.

[thefarmer]

I've not had the privledge to actively fight direct racism as it pertains to my involvement in the town hall/neighborhood meetings yet, since I've only been working directly with this group for about 18 months.

I've had opportunities on numerous occasions with my volunteering with the latch key kids in dealing with how they co-exist with kids of different color/cultures in the activities we do in the afterschool program. Its very rewarding to sit down with 7/8/9 year olds and talk with them (especially after an altercation) and talk about why it happend, what they were feeling, listening to their reasoning and logic and then looking at how someone with different skin color is really no different as a person, thus shouldnt be treated any differently.

Reality says that this is a learned behavior that the child picks up from his home environment. Reality also says that my efforts on the whole are very small as compared to the child's exposure to that home environment. But I simply hope that in any instance, it causes the child to question the idea further and let understanding plant a seed. But I refuse to let that reality discourage me from volunteering with the kids, and I adamantly refuse to believe that somewhere, somehow, I will get through to one of them during one of those discussions and that it will influence their behavior and perception later on.

Now, answer your own question. What do you do about it?

Well, to be accurate, my question was this:

Since you consider that participation in your local town hall/neighborhood meetings(Which I think everyone should do, bytheway) is combating racism (among other things, I assume), can you give an example of an issue where you addressed racism directly?
Which was only in the context of fighting racism in your town hall meetings, not outside of it. However, I'll answer it anyway because you answered several of mine.

From a prior post, I take it you're white, Gan. If for some reason I got this confused, then correct me.

Since I'm not white, then I'm going to come at this with a different viewpoint than you. As a second-generation Asian American, we've had different experiences when it comes to racism. While I'm not denying that you've experienced it, as your posts have mentioned, it's been more of a direct influence in my life than I'm sure it has yours.

At this point in my life, I don't actively fight against racism, other than to live my daily life as color/culture-blind as possible. My daughter is raised the same way. Though in her case, as my parents had to do for me, I have to explain to her why so many of her friends are blonde/blue-eyed(white) or black hair/black-eyed(black)while she has those 'funny slanty eyes'. In the city where we're at there's a small Asian population, that unfortunately doesn't filter in the particular school where she attends, so she's the only Asian there.
I do the best I can to explain to her that it's OK to look and act different. That the differences are what each and every person unique, whether it's the fact that they can jump rope better, or the fact that they have 'slanty eyes'. As she grows older, I'll be able to teach her about what equality means, but at five, I'm content with telling her that it's OK to have black, white, pink blue and yellow friends to play with on the playground.

[chillmonster]

I've been enjoying the give and take, so I'll let you guys continue after interjecting this. :D

There are well documented disparities in judicial system when it comes to sentencing. I doubt anyone here can find a single objective study that says otherwise.

To help any of you who wish to gain a bit of perspective added video of a very good civil rights attorney. If you're interested, I found the entire thing compelling, but the first half is fine for this subject. (I tried to find another video of this guy, that was a bit more in depth but I can't remember where I saw it.)

WATCH AT LEAST HALF IF YOU CAN FIND THE TIME (http://www.fora.tv/fora/fora_player.php?c=948&u=0&t=235682&s=)

Other than that mistake, I think I agree with Gan on almost every point, which is surprising since, as a conservative he's wrong at least 65% of the time.

But I like to know how he knows he lost out on those jobs because of government quotas.

[Gan]

But I like to know how he knows he lost out on those jobs because of government quotas.

Being close friends with the recruiter that helped me locate and obtain a slot in the interview process. Networking, while great, only gets you so far (unless you're friends with the hiring manager). He confirmed that all positions were targeted for minority quotent spots. For the purposes of city/state government women are considered a minority as well.

[Gan]

Well, to be accurate, my question was this:


Since you consider that participation in your local town hall/neighborhood meetings(Which I think everyone should do, bytheway) is combating racism (among other things, I assume), can you give an example of an issue where you addressed racism directly? Which was only in the context of fighting racism in your town hall meetings, not outside of it.

At our neighborhood meetings we have not had very many issues that were brought to the table that had to do with race. In fact, there is only one that comes close but the focus was more on business than race.

I live in a neighborhood with a pretty decent blend of people. My neighbors on one side are from puerto rico/new york and across the street I have neighbors from viet nam. I think that our neighborhood is a pretty average reflection of the diversity of Houston. We have an HOA that is active in maintaining property values and a block away from my house is a neighborhood elementary school, a junior high, a city park, a catholic church/school, and a buddhist temple/school.

Right outside of our neighborhood, in the business area (we have zoning laws here in Houston) is a large hispanic nightclub. Its in a building that used to be a K-Mart. Because its directly across the street from one of the major access points into our neighborhood (and houses that border that edge) there has always been concerns of increased violence (you can consistently hear gunshots from the parkinglot after midnight), increased frequency of drunk driving (one patron parked his car through the living room of one of the houses across from the parking lot last year), and all the other concerns associated with nightclubs/party establishments and how it affects the areas around them.

This club put in a bid for a larger piece of property on the other side of the neighborhood to build a 2nd club because the hispanic draw is large in our part of Houston and having two clubs with freeway access is a huge investment opportunity (for the club owners).

With the help of our city councilman and our HOA (neighorhood association) we actively fought to prevent the granting of the TABC liquor license on the 2nd property purchased by that club and eventually forced the business to put it back up for sale so a business that would be more beneficial to the neighborhood (socially and economically) to buy. In addition, we succeeded in providing enough documentation of code and law violations by the existing club to prevent its liquor license renwall when it expires. By 2008 the club will have to move locations, hopefully further away from our neighborhod and deeper into the business areas.

During this year long process the members fought constant crys of racism from the club owners and the patrons that frequent that establishment. Furthermore we had to actively suppress the other home owners in our neighborhood (typically older residents) who would try to direct all the blame onto the hispanic race for the club's effect its had on the surrounding community. In this I have to say that dealing with kids is way easier than dealing with stubborn and narrowminded old people who refuse to change their views. However, they will at least listen to people similar to them so I was part of the group it befell to in effort to redirect that slanted view. Those efforts were for the purpose of not betraying the real goals behind preventing the club from building a 2nd establishment and preventing the renewal of the liquor license on the original establishment in hopes of encouraging the club to relocate further down the freeway and away from the neighborhoods.

Thats the only thing that comes to mind with the neighborhood meetings that I'm part of in dealing with race specifically. I've never seen or heard of outright racism with the residents of our neighborhood as involving other residents. I'm sure it exists if someone of color is neighbors with some of the old people I had to work with; however, it has not been brought to the attention of the association requesting remediation. This especially with the sale or lease of homes in our neighborhood.

[DeV]

He confirmed that all positions were targeted for minority quotent spots. If on the off chance your friend was telling the truth it sounds like you had a case for discrimination. Companies are not supposed to reserve spots for minority applicants and quotas are illegal. Even more unethical is the fact that your friend, a government employee, even told you this.

[Gan]

It was for 3 city positions. At the time I had neither the time nor the resources to appeal/fight it if it was true. The city had some interesting ideas on hiring practices under Mayor Lee Brown's leadership.

So I moved on.

[DeV]

At the time I had neither the time nor the resources to appeal/fight it if it was true. This is why we need organizations like the NAACP/ACLU. You should have called them.

[Gan]

This is why we need organizations like the NAACP/ACLU. You should have called them.

I never considered calling the NAACP.

The ACLU was mentioned to me, but I did not want to cost my friend his job in my fight. In the long run I'm happy with the decision to move on because of where it led me with working in hospitals. I had fun being a throughput consultant too bad it turned into way too much travel or I would still be doing it.

[chillmonster]

Gan, I'd like to thank you for being the first reasonable conservative to accept the 65% rule. The statistice prove it.

[Latrinsorm]

In this I have to say that dealing with kids is way easier than dealing with stubborn and narrowminded old people who refuse to change their views.AGEIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gan]

AGEIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

PWNND

[chillmonster]

AGEIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess I'm an ageist also. A lot of these problems will be solved with time.

[Daniel]

Where did I state I was comparing different crimes? The fact that the range of sentences for any single crime is so large shows that for each specific crime there are large amounts of mitigating circumstances.

You stated that it is possible that different races have different base rates of crimes committed.

Why is it impossible that they have different base rates of mitigating circumstances?

Like one is black and one is white.

At the end of the day, if someone is receiving 7 times the sentence just because of their race, than that is indicative of a bigger problem. If you want to sit here and say that blacks DESERVE 7 times the sentence than whites, than do so. However, do not sit here and try and argue that there is a logical basis for that being the case.



One "factor" WB didn't mention was geography. No numbers handy, but when you think hard crime, you think cities. You also think of the racial disparities of population in these areas. Judges that give out the sentences in these type of areas likely both see far more violent crime and are expected politically to take a tougher stance on these crimes. So, if city judges are giving out harsher punishments than rural judges, and the populations have very different racial consistancies, the outcome will be longer average sentences for minorities.

I think it's a topic that has too many variables to say anything definitively. I especially find it hard to believe that with as transparent as the system is today, that "some white people don't like black people" affects enough judges to cause such huge disparities.

Under basic probability the numbers would tend to converge the higher number of cases you get. However, that is not the case. You can twist it anyway you want to see what is so glaringly obvious. That is your perogative. Excuse me if I don't do the same thing.

[Daniel]

Feel free to reference the actual study if so. I'm genuinely curious to see how they'd incorporate all of those variables into one nicely wrapped percentage.

Though even then I don't know if it would be possible to differentiate the remainder between "racist white judges" and a racial propensity for mitigation.


http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/

Feel free to refute.

[Daniel]

I dont have the moral high ground. I'm simply offering up a perspective from someone who sees it equal on both sides,

Herein lies the problem.

Things are not equal in America. You will do or say anything that will make yourself believe this, but it is not.

Keep living in your funny little world where things like the Jena case are nothing but an "Anomaly". However, as much as you want to turn on the blinders. Thing do not change.

If you truly think that the NAACP is the same as say, the Ku Klux Klan than you have serious serious mental issues.


our posts here on the PC in the past say otherwise. Perhaps you just dont interpret your own words in that manner.


My posts here on the PC are not even a sliver of a reflection of my life. You choose to focus on the fact that I refuse to deny the fact that there is still racism and inequality in America. That is your choice, but that in no way translate into an encompassing view of how I am in real life. I hate to break it to you.



And with viewpoints as you've expressed in this thread, there always will be. Looks like you're secure in your belief as long as thats happening, nevermind that you're one of the propegators. ;)


Lol. My posts say nothing that racial inequality exists and that something needs to be done about it.

I will ask what YOU Have done to combat racism in America or to change the prevalent inequalities. However, you have already said as much * nothing*. So you have hardly any room to talk about ones actions having an effect on inequality, as an object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by some outside force. Simple physics my friend.



Elaborate on this please.


I already have. Huge dispariaties in sentencing rates across races. Critically under funded schools in black areas. I can list more, but you haven't even tried to respond to these.

I will say that you made some asinine comment about under funded schools being more of an issue of income than anything else. To counter that I will point out that the vast majority of the people living below the poverty line in america are black. I'll give you two guesses as to what historical legacy that is a result of.

Then you go further on in this post to say that "Statistics" on judicial incarceration rates are worthless...because they are statistics.

The bottom line is that you will not accept anything that points to racism in America. LOOK AT THE ORIGINAL POST IN THIS THREAD. It must be fun being ignorant.



I'll stop when you stop having your identity crisis

I have no identity crisis Gan. I know exactly who I am and where I have come from. And I'm definitely not so insecure to let some douche bag on an internet message board make me second guess myself.



I've never claimed the NAACP is racist.


Fight it with entities that arent hypocritical so the rest of American will give it a legitimate thought instead of passing it off as another racist group clamoring about what can America do for them.

Yea...Basicly nothing else needs to be said.

[chillmonster]

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/

Feel free to refute.

Excellent link, but numbers only go so far. They allow people to accept that there are disparities while maintain personal/emotial distance and therefore allowing them to justify these disparities. Hearing the personal stories and seeing that these are real people who suffer would do much more to change minds, which is why I posted that link.

Judging by what I've read since, however, I doubt anyone has bothered to check it out.

[Daniel]

I don't doubt.

Apparently, acknowledging that racism exists in America is the same as being rabidly anti white. Oh well. I don't know what I'll tell my mom.

[Recal]

At the end of the day, if someone is receiving 7 times the sentence just because of their race, than that is indicative of a bigger problem. If you want to sit here and say that blacks DESERVE 7 times the sentence than whites, than do so. However, do not sit here and try and argue that there is a logical basis for that being the case.

First off, which is it? You state 7 times longer sentences, WB states 10% longer. Seems like a bit of a drastic difference.

Second, there is a completely logical basis. You state that there is a difference between crime rates per race. Logically, there is a difference between mitigation rates.


Under basic probability the numbers would tend to converge the higher number of cases you get. However, that is not the case.

Exactly. The rate of crime does not converge, even over the entire country. How would you then possibly expect the mitigation rate to converge?


Feel free to refute.

Linked document only has raw data. It has no extrapolation/minimization of variables like I asked for. Geography of rural/urban areas are not included, not even many/any of WB's variables are covered. We already know the numbers.

[Daniel]

You need to learn how to read.

[Recal]

You need to learn how to read.

Just because you can't defend your arguments doesn't make me illiterate.

[Daniel]

Just because you are oblivious doesn't mean I can't defend my arguments.

[chillmonster]

Under-funded schools aren't the problem in America. All of our schools are falling behind, but since the best teachers would rather not teach in poor, black communities, so those schools are falling even faster. I have some friends who are VERY good teachers who they tell me all the time about how they're fighting an uphill battle because most other teachers just aren't doing the job, and teachers unions are making it impossible to get rid of some of them and reincentivise them to do a good job. They also tell me about how NCLB is the worst program ever, and it's doing much more to hurt schools than help.

A lot of you have seen this, but for those who haven't, it's an eye opener.

STUPID AMERICA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA)

[Recal]

Just because you are oblivious doesn't mean I can't defend my arguments.

No, but ignoring a post shows that you won't defend them. And yes, I'm oblivious to the emotive response generated from raw numbers, since I have a good enough social-statistics background to know they don't mean much without analysis.

[Daniel]

The analysis is there. You choose to dismiss the issue with hypothesis's that even among themselves do not change the nature of the problem.

Even if we assume that the mitigating factors are enough to A) Warrant sentences on average 7 years and B) that this in and of itself accounts for the entire disparity, than there are still underlying racial issues that must be addressed in America.

Anyway you slice it, there are issues that need to be addressed. If you want to think otherwise than feel free. I have better uses of my time.

[Recal]

No, it is raw data. There is no variable-analysis. A real study would need variable-minimization combined with a statistical test for deviation.

Yes, there are racial issues to be addressed. As for A, I still don't understand the discrepency between your "7x as long sentences" and WB's 10% longer sentences. However, B has nothing to do with your original argument of "some white people just don't like black people."

B has everything to do with certain racial groups needing to focus more inwardly rather than outwardly. If a certain group commits more crime/has less mitigating factors, they should be focusing on crime prevention and education rather than attacking an unbiased system. As long as race is used as an excuse rather than a tool to see where focus needs to be given, the disparities will exist and tensions will be present.

[Latrinsorm]

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/

Feel free to refute.Isn't it weird that the states with the lowest ratio of incarcerated % to population % are the Southern states, though? Wouldn't one expect that to be exactly the opposite? I mean, who would guess that CT was more racist (judicially speaking) than Alabama?
To counter that I will point out that the vast majority of the people living below the poverty line in america are black.Not only do black people not make up the "vast majority", they aren't even a majority. (Non-Hispanic white is the largest category, but they're just short of a majority.)

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p20-541.pdf

"Blacks accounted for about one quarter of the population in poverty in 2001." Did you mean to say that black people have a significantly higher rate of impoverishment?

[Gan]

Herein lies the problem.

Things are not equal in America. You will do or say anything that will make yourself believe this, but it is not.
You're wrong on so many levels its beyond stupid.


Keep living in your funny little world where things like the Jena case are nothing but an "Anomaly". However, as much as you want to turn on the blinders. Thing do not change. So now you're putting words in my mouth to suit your defense when I call you to task. Pathetic.


If you truly think that the NAACP is the same as say, the Ku Klux Klan than you have serious serious mental issues. Where did you get that I compared NAACP to KKK? Are you smoking crack?



My posts here on the PC are not even a sliver of a reflection of my life. You choose to focus on the fact that I refuse to deny the fact that there is still racism and inequality in America. That is your choice, but that in no way translate into an encompassing view of how I am in real life. I hate to break it to you. LOL whatever dude. You dont need to impress me. Its no big deal since this is a thread on an internet BBS. Live your lie and enjoy. Just dont get pissed when others call you full of shit.



Lol. My posts say nothing that racial inequality exists and that something needs to be done about it. No dumbass, your posts say everything about keeping the disparity alive by supporting organizations who could be/are racist in nature. All the while crying foul when the man keeps you down. I applaud your hypocrisy.


I will ask what YOU Have done to combat racism in America or to change the prevalent inequalities. However, you have already said as much * nothing*. So you have hardly any room to talk about ones actions having an effect on inequality, as an object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by some outside force. Simple physics my friend. Read a few posts up, you'll see what I do on the community level. LEARN 2 READ PLZ.



I already have. Huge dispariaties in sentencing rates across races. Critically under funded schools in black areas. I can list more, but you haven't even tried to respond to these. I've already responded, you're just too stupid or blind to listen.


I will say that you made some asinine comment about under funded schools being more of an issue of income than anything else. To counter that I will point out that the vast majority of the people living below the poverty line in america are black. I'll give you two guesses as to what historical legacy that is a result of. My god your reading comprehension sucks. Go back and reread what I posted when you started throwing around your 'black' schools. Take off the glasses and maybe you can see clearer.


Then you go further on in this post to say that "Statistics" on judicial incarceration rates are worthless...because they are statistics. LOL, way to remain blind about the ambiguity of statistics. Whatever makes you sleep at night brother. :lol:


The bottom line is that you will not accept anything that points to racism in America. Correction. I dont accept anything that is racist in America. While you on the other hand refuse to accept anything that appears to be racist if its not coming from white america. Keep the blinders on buddy.


LOOK AT THE ORIGINAL POST IN THIS THREAD. It must be fun being ignorant. According to you, it can be quite successful. We'll take your word for it.

:clap:

[thefarmer]

Isn't it weird that the states with the lowest ratio of incarcerated % to population % are the Southern states, though? Wouldn't one expect that to be exactly the opposite? I mean, who would guess that CT was more racist (judicially speaking) than Alabama?

I would.. and that comes from someone who lives in the South.

[Blazing247]

I think I've got it now.

Updated facts and things I've learned from Daniel:

1) Daniel works for the government. He KNOWS, motherfuckers!
2) Daniel is biracial, the penultimate racial argument machine. You cannot defeat something that is 50 percent black, 50 percent white, and 100 percent full of shit.
3) Disagreement with Daniel automatically means you are a) racist and VII) stoopid.
4) Statistics need no explanation or context, they be the truth and don't you be questioning them.

I'll bow out now, I've met my match with Cyberdene systems model 101 Daniel, the Racinator.

[Gan]

I think I've got it now.

Updated facts and things I've learned from Daniel:

1) Daniel works for the government. He KNOWS, motherfuckers!
2) Daniel is biracial, the penultimate racial argument machine. You cannot defeat something that is 50 percent black, 50 percent white, and 100 percent full of shit.
3) Disagreement with Daniel automatically means you are a) racist and VII) stoopid.
4) Statistics need no explanation or context, they be the truth and don't you be questioning them.

I'll bow out now, I've met my match with Cyberdene systems model 101 Daniel, the Racinator.

LOLOLOLOLOL

100000000 points for this post.

Thanks for the laugh.

[chillmonster]

Isn't it weird that the states with the lowest ratio of incarcerated % to population % are the Southern states, though? Wouldn't one expect that to be exactly the opposite? I mean, who would guess that CT was more racist (judicially speaking) than Alabama?Not only do black people not make up the "vast majority", they aren't even a majority. (Non-Hispanic white is the largest category, but they're just short of a majority.)

No it isn't weird. The data shows a pretty obvious inverse relationship between the black population in a state (and further one with blacks per capita) and the black:white incarceration ratio. It makes perfect sense if you consider socioeconomic implicaitons of having a large, economically diverse black population and communities with diversity throughout the political and legal systems.

[Daniel]

No, it is raw data. There is no variable-analysis. A real study would need variable-minimization combined with a statistical test for deviation.

Yes, there are racial issues to be addressed. As for A, I still don't understand the discrepency between your "7x as long sentences" and WB's 10% longer sentences. However, B has nothing to do with your original argument of "some white people just don't like black people."

B has everything to do with certain racial groups needing to focus more inwardly rather than outwardly. If a certain group commits more crime/has less mitigating factors, they should be focusing on crime prevention and education rather than attacking an unbiased system. As long as race is used as an excuse rather than a tool to see where focus needs to be given, the disparities will exist and tensions will be present.

The problem is that you refuse to believe that there is a biased system despite numerical evidence (Feel free to do a simple T test on the numbers and tell me what you come up with where h0 is black sentencing = white sentencing). To make matters worse you put the responsibility of correcting the issues on the victims.

Tell me, what do you believe to be the mitigating factors that contribute to increased sentencing rates for African Americans, and what is your hypothesis for how they effect these trends?

Furthermore, if you believe that there is inherent bias in the methodology used to state a problem, than feel free to run the numbers yourself or reference someone that does. Baring that, you have absolutely no basis to outrightly dismiss the conclusion that there is an inherent bias to the judicial system beyond your own personal belief. If that's what you consider statistical analysis, than by all means.

Finally, my name is not "Warriorbird" and I am not capable of commenting on anything he has posted, nor am I responsible for supporting what he says. I have no idea where he got his number from and wouldn't begin to guess.

[Daniel]

I've met my match

This has been obvious for some time.

[Daniel]

You're wrong on so many levels its beyond stupid.



So, I'm wrong in saying that there is inequality in America? Okay. So, should I even bother pulling up the posts where you have said otherwise, or are you smart enough to just bow out now?

[Gan]

So, I'm wrong in saying that there is inequality in America? Okay. So, should I even bother pulling up the posts where you have said otherwise, or are you smart enough to just bow out now?

You're wrong in thinking that the solution to inequality is more inequality.

Perhaps its you who should bow out now.

[chillmonster]

Now this is not an attack on anyone in particular, but I have to ask. Why do so many people focus on those posts that are inflamitory and ignore good points that refute some of their earlier assertions? It's too easy to ignore the fact that many people here have been carrying around pretty rediculous ideas while focusing on slamming one person or other. Believing Daniel is wrong here doesn't justify some pretty baseless misconceptions about the NAACP and HBCUs, for example, that I suspect many will still hold even though I those ideas have been pretty much exposed.

If the point isn't to gain a better understanding of others while explaining your own ideas - if it's only to yell as loud as you can at people you don't want to aggree with, why have the conversation in the first place?

[Recal]

The problem is that you refuse to believe that there is a biased system despite numerical evidence (Feel free to do a simple T test on the numbers and tell me what you come up with where h0 is black sentencing = white sentencing). To make matters worse you put the responsibility of correcting the issues on the victims.

On the victims? If you're accusing a system of being faulty, the burden of proof lies with the accuser.

It's clear you've never ran real statistical software like stata. There are things called VARIABLES. I've given many examples of the things that would need to be taken into account. For something of this caliber that would be hundreds. It's not just a simple pull-out-of-your-ass freshman-level T-test with a nice easy 2x8 matrix of numbers.

As even YOU agreed to, even if there was a significant difference, there could be mitigating factor differences between races. So you could never know if it was judge animosity or these mitigating differences.

There is no numerical evidence of bias, there IS numerical evidence of racial disperity of unknown cause. As much as you would like to say the cause is "white people just don't like black people," I would like to say it's because of the popular black cultural ethos.


So, I'm wrong in saying that there is inequality in America?

You're wrong in thinking that it is proven that the system is biased.

If the system is so transparent, why aren't individual judges being ousted for their clearly racist sentencing practices? Since it's so "obvious" it should be rampant, no?

[Gan]

If the system is so transparent, why aren't individual judges being ousted for their clearly racist sentencing practices? Since it's so "obvious" it should be rampant, no?

Its a conspiracy man!

[Recal]

Its a conspiracy man!

Right, I forgot. The NAACP must secretly be a white-organization that willfully ignores judge misconduct.

[Latrinsorm]

It makes perfect sense if you consider socioeconomic implicaitons of having a large, economically diverse black population and communities with diversity throughout the political and legal systems.That doesn't follow, though. 6.7% of California is a heck of a lot bigger than 26% of Alabama (for instance) in terms of raw population size. I don't have any information on how diverse any particular political or legal systems are.

[Daniel]

You're wrong in thinking that the solution to inequality is more inequality.

Perhaps its you who should bow out now.

And you're wrong if you think that ignoring the issues and doing nothing about them is going to solve it either.

and you are especially wrong if you think organizations like the NAACP have no role in making things more equal.

[Daniel]

On the victims? If you're accusing a system of being faulty, the burden of proof lies with the accuser.

It's clear you've never ran real statistical software like stata. There are things called VARIABLES. I've given many examples of the things that would need to be taken into account. For something of this caliber that would be hundreds. It's not just a simple pull-out-of-your-ass freshman-level T-test with a nice easy 2x8 matrix of numbers.

As even YOU agreed to, even if there was a significant difference, there could be mitigating factor differences between races. So you could never know if it was judge animosity or these mitigating differences.

There is no numerical evidence of bias, there IS numerical evidence of racial disperity of unknown cause. As much as you would like to say the cause is "white people just don't like black people," I would like to say it's because of the popular black cultural ethos.



You're wrong in thinking that it is proven that the system is biased.

If the system is so transparent, why aren't individual judges being ousted for their clearly racist sentencing practices? Since it's so "obvious" it should be rampant, no?

Do you know why the Governor of Illinois put a moratirum on the use of the Death Penalty?

Furthermore,
As I told you in the very beginning. There are ways to tackle the issue without isolating every variable and accounting for the unknown variable bias. It is necessary to have the full reasoning behind a problem before you take actions to address it, such as oversight, accountability and checks and balances. There is also alot to be said about changing the prevailing perceptions within the communities at risk and taking steps to address that (If you had taken the time to read the link I posted earlier, than you would know that is something that I am trying to do). If you are unaware of this, than you have undoubtedtly never taken a public policy course.

[Daniel]

That doesn't follow, though. 6.7% of California is a heck of a lot bigger than 26% of Alabama (for instance) in terms of raw population size. I don't have any information on how diverse any particular political or legal systems are.

Not relatively speaking.

[Recal]

Do you know why the Governor of Illinois put a moratirum on the use of the Death Penalty?

7 years ago?


"We have now freed more people than we have put to death under our system -- 13 people have been exonerated and 12 have been put to death," Ryan told CNN. "There is a flaw in the system, without question, and it needs to be studied."

Exactly why the death penalty is stupid. You can't undo it. Of course, that has nothing to do with race. But I'm sure you'll spin it that way. Or maybe you were just trying to divert the attention away from me pointing out that statistical analysis is more than your simple T-test.

[Recal]

As I told you in the very beginning. There are ways to tackle the issue without isolating every variable and accounting for the unknown variable bias.

No.

[Daniel]

We reinstated the death penalty in 1977 in Illinois and since that time we have executed twelve death row inmates. But, thirteen times, innocent men were convicted of capital crimes by judges and juries based on evidence they thought was beyond a reasonable doubt. On thirteen occasions, innocent men were condemned to die. And on thirteen times, innocent men were exonerated after rotting for years on death row. For that to happen even once is unjust. For that to happen thirteen times is shameful and beyond belief.

The first nine exonerations took place over several years, going back to 1987. In my first eleven months in office, four men were freed from Death Row after being cleared by the courts. That included Anthony Porter, a man with an IQ of less than sixty who spent over fifteen years on Death Row for a crime he did not commit--sixteen years on Death Row, all the time knowing he was innocent, while the state was trying to kill him and the real killer was free. That must be like hell on earth. And if not for the students at Northwestern University--journalism students!-- who found the real killer, Mr. Porter would be dead. Killed by the state! He had ordered his last meal and been fitted for his burial suit.

When the thirteenth inmate was exonerated, I did the only thing I could do, the only thing any governor could do--I halted executions. That was the easy part, the hard part was to find out what had gone so terribly wrong. The hard part was to try to answer how our system of justice became so fraught with error, especially when it came to imposing the ultimate, irreversible penalty.

So I appointed some of the smartest, most dedicated citizens I could find to a commission to study what had gone so terribly awry. It was chaired by former Federal Judge Frank McGarr and co-chaired by former Senator Paul Simon and former U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois Thomas Sullivan. They led a panel which included former prosecutors, some defense lawyers, and non-lawyers. Harvard graduate and famed author Scott Turow served on the panel, he's better known here for writing One L, his account of his first year at Harvard Law School, which hundreds of thousands of law students have read for solace. The backgrounds of my commission members were different but they shared one thing in common: a passion and commitment for justice. I thank them for their service.

They put together a tremendous document. The report itself is 207 pages and there are hundreds more pages containing technical analysis, including a study on race and sentencing. I have said before that the more I learn about the justice system, the more troubled I become. As I read this report, I am both impressed that these dedicated and brilliant citizens developed eighty-five recommendations to improve the caliber of justice in our state system.

[chillmonster]

That doesn't follow, though. 6.7% of California is a heck of a lot bigger than 26% of Alabama (for instance) in terms of raw population size. I don't have any information on how diverse any particular political or legal systems are.

It correletes with the population and blacks per capita. The states where there are fewer blacks showed a higher black/white incarceration ratio. Take a look at the map and it's fairly obvious.

[Daniel]

No.

Lol. Brilliant.

[Daniel]

7 years ago?



Exactly why the death penalty is stupid. You can't undo it. Of course, that has nothing to do with race. But I'm sure you'll spin it that way. Or maybe you were just trying to divert the attention away from me pointing out that statistical analysis is more than your simple T-test.

Yes. 7 years ago.

The above post is his commentary in 2002 about it.

You can read the report here: www.idoc.state.il.us/ccp/ccp/reports/commission_report/index.html

You can read more from the ACLU about racial disparities in the judicial system in America here:

http://www.aclu.org/capital/unequal/10389pub20030226.html

[Daniel]

""Our capital system is haunted by the demon of error: error in determining guilt and error in determining who among the guilty deserves to die. What effect was race having? What effect was poverty having?

"Because of all these reasons, today I am commuting the sentences of all death row inmates," Ryan said. "

[Gan]

And you're wrong if you think that ignoring the issues and doing nothing about them is going to solve it either.

and you are especially wrong if you think organizations like the NAACP have no role in making things more equal.

I never said ignoring issues nor did I say anything about ignoring the NAACP. You created that in your own little fantasy world in this thread.

Go back and reread the posts again. You're not worth explaining it over and over to. If you still cant comprehend it, get someone to read it to you, and then explain it to you.

There's hope for you yet!

[Warriorbird]

Even after removing every possible explanatory factor...black folks got 10% more time... the question is whether you can pin that just on lawyers or not. For simple possession the system is clearly monumentally fucked. A 7 to 1 difference is not particularly easily explained way.

When 1 in 9 of a particular ethnic group is in jail...there's problems, whether people want to ignore them or not.

Though...on the amusing end...the greatest prison disparities seem to occur in the regions with the lowest amount of black populace.

[Gan]

Right, I forgot. The NAACP must secretly be a white-organization that willfully ignores judge misconduct.

Ask Daniel, he'll confirm it. Cause he knows things.

:lol:

[Gan]

Even after removing every possible explanatory factor...black folks got 10% more time... the question is whether you can pin that just on lawyers or not. For simple possession the system is clearly monumentally fucked. A 7 to 1 difference is not particularly easily explained way.

When 1 in 9 of a particular ethnic group is in jail...there's problems, whether people want to ignore them or not.

Though...on the amusing end...the greatest prison disparities seem to occur in the regions with the lowest amount of black populace.

Just say its all whitey's fault, thats what has worked so far.

[CrystalTears]

Isn't it weird that the states with the lowest ratio of incarcerated % to population % are the Southern states, though? Wouldn't one expect that to be exactly the opposite? I mean, who would guess that CT was more racist (judicially speaking) than Alabama?
What the motherfuck?! Where the fuck did you get that shit?

[Daniel]

I never said ignoring issues nor did I say anything about ignoring the NAACP. You created that in your own little fantasy world in this thread.

Go back and reread the posts again. You're not worth explaining it over and over to. If you still cant comprehend it, get someone to read it to you, and then explain it to you.

There's hope for you yet!

No need. I understood just fine. The simple fact of the matter is that you still ignored the fact that such organizations as the naacp still have a reason for existing.

[Daniel]

Hey CT, don't you have some phone calls to answer? Or is that only on the weekdays?

[chillmonster]

If the system is so transparent, why aren't individual judges being ousted for their clearly racist sentencing practices? Since it's so "obvious" it should be rampant, no?

It doesn't have to be rampant to warrant action. This is why I hate spitting out statistics; people can just ask for more or simply disregard whatever you say because of some assumed bias in the analysis or methodology. They're simply too impersonal. Real stories from real people are the only way to make someone understand.

Check out this excerpt form an article written by a guy who is a Civil Rights attorney who works specifically on death penalty cases. He's the same lawyer from the short speech I posted earlier.


Bryan Stevenson
We have a case, out of Florida, where a trial judge, a white judge, was presiding over a case involving a black defendant. This judge was confident that the death penalty ought to be imposed even before the trial started.
At the end of the guilt phase, the trial judge saw the mother and father of this black defendant leaving the courtroom for a lunch break. He looked up and on the record he said, "Well, there goes the nigger mom and nigger dad. Why don't we get them to testify right now? We can save the state some money from having to bring them back to court." The penalty phase continued and the judge sentenced this man to death.
On appeal, the Florida Supreme Court acknowledged in a footnote what this judge said. The court then said in it's opinion, "We want to admonish state court judges in Florida to avoid the appearance of impropriety." That was the end of their discussion. And it's ironic to me that this judge, had he been a newscaster or a sports commentator, would have lost his job. But because he's a trial judge, presiding over black defendants and sentencing people to death day in and day out, he still sits on the bench today. The extent of his punishment was to have the court tell him to avoid the appearance of impropriety. It reflects the way in which we tolerate racial bias in the administration of the death penalty and in the criminal justice system.

As of April this year, that judge was still sitting on the bench.

[Warriorbird]

Just say its all whitey's fault, thats what has worked so far.
-Gan

Not what I've said ever, Gan. Some of these figures just puzzle me. Some are pretty saddening. Possession is clearly the area where the greatest problem is. Though it might infuriate Daniel, possession and the death penalty are the only areas I think one can really attempt to address it...and possession more than the death penalty. Minus possession, the figures would leave sentencing fairly decent.


What the motherfuck?! Where the fuck did you get that shit?

All of the studies of incarcerated percentages and sentencing percentages indicate that the states with the lowest amount of black folks are far more likely to convict them and sentence them more harshly. Atlanta's about the best place to be tried for a crime if you are black.

[Recal]

They put together a tremendous document. The report itself is 207 pages and there are hundreds more pages containing technical analysis, including a study on race and sentencing. I have said before that the more I learn about the justice system, the more troubled I become.

Did he ever state that the reason he was troubled had anything to do with race and sentencing specifically? Not in that quote.


Since taking office two years ago, Ashcroft has overturned local U.S. district attorneys' decisions not to seek the death penalty 28 times, which is more than the number of "overrides" during Attorney General Janet Reno's tenure. Of these 28 ""overrides,"" two involved suspects who are white; 23 involved suspects who are black, Latino or Native American; and three involved suspects whose race could not be determined.

This is the kind of unrelated commentary based on partial raw data that is laughable. It doesn't state how many of the occurrances were even possible. If there were only 2 overrideable white cases and 500 overrideable black case, this would be clearly a different slant. The fact that those numbers aren't included make the whole case look ridiculous. Not to mention that the article states Ashcroft found no cases in like 780 of bias.

As to the report... I looked at "the sentencing phase" and "imposition of sentence." Closest I could find to a study-suggestion on race was that they shouldn't impose the death penalty on the mentally retarded. Not sure the word race is present in any of the suggestions. If race is such a big deal for sentencing, why aren't there suggestions on how to deal with it?


Lol. Brilliant.

Yea, I don't know what to do in that regard. You clearly haven't even taken a freshman class on social statistics. Variables are important.


black folks got 10% more time

You're going to want to get in touch with Daniel on this. Daniel states they get SEVEN TIMES more time.

[Recal]

Real stories from real people are the only way to make someone understand.

When you're talking of a prison population of what, 2 million or so? One or two horror stories don't mean dick. If that's true about the judge you mentioned, there should be a public outcry to get him out of office. That man is not an example of the system failing, it is an example of an individual failure.

[CrystalTears]

All of the studies of incarcerated percentages and sentencing percentages indicate that the states with the lowest amount of black folks are far more likely to convict them and sentence them more harshly. Atlanta's about the best place to be tried for a crime if you are black.
No, not any of that. The last line. I'm just asking that when people refer to Connecticut that they be nice to me and not say CT cause I'll take it personally. :D

[Gan]

No need. I understood just fine. The simple fact of the matter is that you still ignored the fact that such organizations as the naacp still have a reason for existing.

Not if they are racist and discriminatory by nature. They do more harm than good to the cause.

Thats what you fail to understand.

[Daniel]

As to the report... I looked at "the sentencing phase" and "imposition of sentence." Closest I could find to a study-suggestion on race was that they shouldn't impose the death penalty on the mentally retarded. Not sure the word race is present in any of the suggestions. If race is such a big deal for sentencing, why aren't there suggestions on how to deal with it?



There were 85 reccomendations from the report in order to account for judicial and procedural misconduct that were the predominate factor in the cases.

I guess you missed that part. Unsurprisingly.

[Daniel]

Not if they are racist and discriminatory by nature. They do more harm than good to the cause.

Thats what you fail to understand.

Not really. I spoken out against the way some of these organizations go about their business, and this is something I am very vocal about within the black community.

However, they still have a place in the fight for America and frankly, putting the onus on these organizations for the existent discrimination in America is faulty and not condusice to change either.

[Daniel]

When you're talking of a prison population of what, 2 million or so? One or two horror stories don't mean dick. If that's true about the judge you mentioned, there should be a public outcry to get him out of office. That man is not an example of the system failing, it is an example of an individual failure.

A state governor being so appalled by his judicial system that he suspended the death penalty not enough "Public out cry" for you?

Oh, and the Republican who replaced him kept the moratorium in place. Fyi.

[Gan]

Not really. I spoken out against the way some of these organizations go about their business, and this is something I am very vocal about within the black community.

However, they still have a place in the fight for America and frankly, putting the onus on these organizations for the existent discrimination in America is faulty and not condusice to change either.

Then we agree to disagree. Because you cant have an organization that actively discriminates maintain any credibility to the American community as a fighter and leader against discrimination. Its hypocritical and outside the 'community' it represents or serves its purely a laughing stock and an excuse for other singular 'community' groups to exist and flourish in order to countermand the impact the other organization has. Its just stupid to expect buy in from everyone else in the community with that credibility.

[Tsa`ah]

Ryan (R) was replaced by Blagojevich (D) ... but your point stands and even more credence is given to it when you examine the caliber of scum bag that was Ryan, and yet he suspended the death penalty because the system was so horrid it even appalled a guy looking at a prison term.

[thefarmer]

Not if they are racist and discriminatory by nature. They do more harm than good to the cause.

Thats what you fail to understand.

While I wasn't the adressee of that particular post, I'll agree to disagree with the 'do more harm than good' statement.

I don't think I (or anyone else) can convince you of why your statement is wrong, just as you (or anyone else) won't be able to convince me you're right.

Honestly, people have deep seated viewpoints and are unlikely to change. Be it the wrong or right assumption based on whatever reason (societal, cultural, race, economic, etc), the last few pages just seem like a waste of typing since an internet post on a Gemstone-related BBS isn't going to change anyone's mind.

[thefarmer]

So, any new news on the Jenna 6?

[Daniel]

Ryan (R) was replaced by Blagojevich (D) ... but your point stands and even more credence is given to it when you examine the caliber of scum bag that was Ryan, and yet he suspended the death penalty because the system was so horrid it even appalled a guy looking at a prison term.

Blaggy kept it in place too. ;)

[Gan]

Ryan (R) was replaced by Blagojevich (D) ... but your point stands and even more credence is given to it when you examine the caliber of scum bag that was Ryan, and yet he suspended the death penalty because the system was so horrid it even appalled a guy looking at a prison term.

Thought I'd add this.



1977

June 27: The revised Illinois death penalty law goes into effect, supported by Rep. George H. Ryan (R-Kankakee). It calls for a bifurcated sentencing procedure involving only one trial judge.
http://www.truthinjustice.org/dphistory-IL.htm

[Daniel]

Yea. Did you read what I posted by George Ryan as to why he suspended it?

[Latrinsorm]

Not relatively speaking.
The states where there are fewer blacks showed a higher black/white incarceration ratio. Take a look at the map and it's fairly obvious.I was responding specifically to the suggestion that a large black population was a root cause. If what you (chillmonster) meant was "large relative to the white population", then alright.

[Recal]

There were 85 reccomendations from the report in order to account for judicial and procedural misconduct that were the predominate factor in the cases.

Did you even look at the suggestions? I didn't find a single one that mentioned race. They're predominately about training.


A state governor being so appalled by his judicial system that he suspended the death penalty not enough "Public out cry" for you?

So appalled that there were things like the allowance of polygraph tests, which at least one suggestion referenced abolishing as evendence in sentencing. All suggestions I saw were either training or evidenciary based, with the goal being to prove guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. Didn't see any mentioning race. Did I miss my whitey-only class on cheating the polygraphs or something?

There SHOULD be public outcry when individual judges take power into their own hands. Like the guy from Florida. If you really believe the problem is so widespread that there's a 700% difference between sentences based only on race (compared to WB's 10%), that would insinuate that almost every judge in the system is corrupt. Going to have a lot of work on your hands. Of course if it's THAT widespread, aren't your oversight committees going to be just as corrupt?

[Daniel]

Are you dense? How do you make a procedural recommendation based on race?

Do not convict black people?

Okay.

[Recal]

So what does this moratorium and your 85 recommendations have to do with race at all?

[Recal]

Because you cant have an organization that actively discriminates maintain any credibility to the American community as a fighter and leader against discrimination. Its hypocritical and outside the 'community' it represents or serves its purely a laughing stock and an excuse for other singular 'community' groups to exist and flourish in order to countermand the impact the other organization has.

So true. Inherritantly unequal-promoting organizations and things like quota's/affirmative action fuel so much race-based drama. They are an extremely short-sighted solution. The only time I've ever seen real racism is as a blowback from these types of policies, with two end effects:

1. Whites get pissed that minorities are guaranteed slots, regardless of credentials. Snide comments are made, whites stay pissed.
2. Because of these guaranteed slots and snide comments, minorities who attend prestigious universities are viewed as having been given a free ride. In mainly social environments, I've witnessed black students complaining because "everyone thinks they only got in due to affirmative action."

If organizations like NAACP instead strove to abolish affirmative action/quotas as well as discrimination against their constituency, they'd have much more political weight when real issues cropped up (like racist judges).

[thefarmer]

If organizations like NAACP instead strove to abolish affirmative action/quotas as well as discrimination against their constituency, they'd have much more political weight when real issues cropped up (like racist judges).

So the original topic of this thread isn't 'real'?

[Recal]

Of course it is. Judges and prosecutors are predominant. I don't know how you could read my quote otherwise.

[Gan]

Just based on what I've read so far. The problem with Illinois judicial system appears to be one of mass incompetence, not mass racism.

[Daniel]

lol

[Daniel]

So what does this moratorium and your 85 recommendations have to do with race at all?

You asked where the outcry was to fix an obviously biased system. I showed you where the governor of Illinois decided to suspend the death penalty because the judicial system was so whacked, that he could not order the death of individuals with a clear conscious.

Not that it matters. The only time racism happens in America is when minorities cause it.

[Warriorbird]

Dangerous minorities. Those Asians never give us any problems.

[Gan]

Dangerous minorities. Those Asians never give us any problems.

Unless you're in Virginia.

[Stretch]

Unless you're in Virginia.

Low blow.

You know what's kind of funny? When I was in 9th grade, I wrote a short story in English class about a son being a civilian casualty in a gang war, which made the dad go berserk and kill a bunch of people.

Thank god that psycho kid wasn't nine years older, or I'd probably be in some trouble right now...

[TheEschaton]

Who the hell is Recal, and why, with 28 posts, should I give a shit about anything he says?

-TheE-

[Blazing247]

Post count matters?

[RichardCranium]

Who the hell is Recal, and why, with 28 posts, should I give a shit about anything he says?

-TheE-

What a stupid thing to type.

[Gan]

Who the hell is Recal, and why, with 28 posts, should I give a shit about anything he says?

-TheE-

Thats a very retarded statement. It would be one thing is he was posting like a NOOB. However, unlinke most noobs, and some senior posters here, he articulates his arguments well.

Quit flexing your e-peen.

[Warriorbird]

One charge overturned.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/14/jena.six/index.html

[TheEschaton]

fucking racosts. shit, why can't we give peace a cahnce?

[Stanley Burrell]

Why facebook bothers me sometimes:

...permission from school administrators to sit under the shade of a tree commonly reserved for the enjoyment of white students. School officials advised the black students to sit wherever they wanted and they did. The next day, three nooses, in the school colors, were hanging from the same tree. The Jena high school principal found that three white students were responsible and recommended expulsion. The white superintendent of schools over-ruled the principal and gave the students a three day suspension, saying that the nooses were "a youthful stunt." Black students decided to resist and organized a sit-in under the tree to protest the lenient treatment given to the noose-hanging white students. Racial tensions remained elevated throughout the fall. On Monday, December 4 2006, a white student who allegedly had been racially taunting black students in support of the students who hung the nooses got into a fight with black students. Allegedly, the white student was taken to the hospital treated, released, reportedly attended a social function later that evening.

As a result of this incident, six black Jena students were arrested and charged with attempted second degree murder. All six were expelled from school. The six charged were: 17-year-old Robert Bailey Junior whose bail was set at $138,000; 17-year-old Theo Shaw - bail $130,000; 18-year-old Carwin Jones--bail $100,000; 17-year-old Bryant Purvis--bail $70,000; 16 year old Mychal Bell, a sophomore in high school who was charged as an adult and for whom bail was set at $90,000; and a still unidentified minor. On the morning of the trial, the District Attorney reduced the charges from attempted second degree murder to second degree aggravated battery and conspiracy. Aggravated battery in Louisiana law demands the attack be with a dangerous weapon. The prosecutor was allowed to argue to the jury that the tennis shoes worn by Bell could be considered a dangerous weapon.

When the pool of potential jurors was summoned, fifty people appeared, all white. The jury deliberated for less than three hours and found Mychal Bell guilty on the maximum possible charges of aggravated second degree battery and conspiracy. He faces up to a maximum of 22 years in prison. The rest of the Jena 6 await similar trials. Theodore Shaw is due to go on trial shortly. Mychal Bell is scheduled to be sentenced September 20th If he gets the maximum sentence he will not be out of prison until he is nearly 40.


THE MESSAGE:

As Chairman Julian Bond stated, "This is an American outrage that demonstrates the continuing shame of racial division in our country. Join us in making it one of the last."
In light of the circumstances surrounding Mychal Bell's case, we urge all concerned citizens to support the call for a new trial.
It is unacceptable to selectively enforce the law based on race. Prosecutorial discretion should be used in a fair and equitable manner.
The Jena Six should be tried by juries that reflect the racial and ethnic demographics of Jena, Louisiana.
The hanging of nooses is not a "youthful stunt" or "prank." It is a hate crime. Such hate crimes should not be tolerated at any school. Jena High School must establish a curriculum which promotes cultural sensitivity and understanding.
The NAACP calls on Louisiana Governor Kathleen B. Blanco and Louisiana Attorney General Charles C. Foti to thoroughly investigate and monitor the trials of Mychal Bell, Robert Bailey, Jr., Theo Shaw, Carwin Jones, Bryant Purvis and John Doe. The Governor and State Attorney General should do everything in their power to ensure that these young men's constitutional rights are protected.


THE UPDATE:

The NAACP, along with a number of organizations, has been working with the lawyers of the Jena 6 daily to arrange for new trials. We're also reviewing additional steps we can take to more fully address the structural racism issues the students may face in the schools. In addition, there is a possibility that a national mobilization will take place within the next few weeks, but we'll let you know more info as it becomes available.


THE ACTION WE NEED YOU TO TAKE NOW!!!

Ø Sign the Petition:
o http://www.naacp.org/get-involved/activism/petitions/jena-6/index.php

Ø Donate online to the:
o Jena 6 Defense Fund https://secure.colorofchange.org/jena_fund/
o OR mail donations to: Jena 6 Defense Committee, P. O. Box 2798, Jena, LA 71342

Ø Donate to the NAACP:
o https://www.naacp.org/contribute/contribute.php

Ø Make a Phone Call:
o Below please find contact information for the Louisiana Governor and the Louisiana State Attorney General.

The Honorable Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor of the Great State of Louisiana
Office of the Governor
Attn: Constituent Services
P.O. Box 94004
Baton Rouge, LA 70804-90004
Phone: (225) 342-0991
Fax: (225) 342-7099
contact@la.gov

Charles C. Foti, Jr., Attorney General
1885 North 3rd Street
P.O. Box 94005
Baton Rouge, LA 70804
Phone: (225) 326-6705
Fax: (225) 342-8703
Executive@ag.state.la.us

Ø Send a letter to the Louisiana Governor and the Louisiana Attorney General:
o http://www.naacp.org/pdfs/SampleJena6SupportLetter.pdf (sample letter)

Ø SPREAD THE WORD!
o Too many people don't even know about the Jena 6 tragedy. Not to mention the fact that events such as this are occurring daily!
o Host an event, forum, town hall meeting, pass out flyers, whatever.just make sure that the people in your community and on your campus understand that racism and injustice is ALIVE. If we don't fight for the Jena 6 and fight to end racism in this country who will?


If you have any questions, call Angela Ciccolo or Stefanie Brown at the National Headquarters at (410) 580-5777.

[thefarmer]

This is the reason why facebook bothers you?

I can think of numerous other reasons, why this?

[TheEschaton]

I lurv Facebook.

[Stanley Burrell]

This is the reason why facebook bothers you?

I can think of numerous other reasons, why this?

Oh. This is just one of numerous reasons. When it acquires that teeny-bopper element of "fighting against the man" by finding any news story where a minority is in question and exploiting it out multiple wazoos to make their database presumably assume the cool hippy factor -- That is a bothersome reason.

[Stanley Burrell]

I lurv Facebook.

Seconded!

[Sean]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/21/car.nooses/index.html

ALEXANDRIA, Louisiana (CNN) -- Authorities in Alexandria, Louisiana, arrested two people after nooses were seen hanging from the back of a red pickup Thursday night, the city's mayor told CNN.


A photograph taken by I-Reporter Casanova Love shows a noose hanging from a red pickup.

Alexandria is less than an hour away from Jena, Louisiana, and was a staging area Thursday for protesters who went to the smaller town to demonstrate against the treatment of six black teens known as the "Jena 6" in racially charged incidents.

Police say the 18-year-old driver of the truck was charged with driving while intoxicated and inciting to riot and also may be charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor -- the 16-year-old passenger.

As police were questioning the driver, he said he had an unloaded rifle in the back, which police found. They also found a set of brass knuckles in the cup holder on the dashboard, according to the police report.

The passenger told police he and his family are in the Ku Klux Klan, the police report said. He also said he had tied the nooses and that the brass knuckles belonged to him, the report said.

At least one of the nooses was made out of an extension cord, according to the police report.

Alexandria Mayor Jacques Roy said those arrested were "from around Jena" and not in the same parish as his city.

Don't Miss
In Depth: The 'Jena 6'
Thousands 'march for justice' in Jena
The police report says a crowd of about 200 people, mostly African-Americans, watched the arrest take place.

Roy said the incident is "not indicative" of Alexandria and that local authorities will look into the matter "completely, thoroughly and transparently."

A photograph of the truck was sent to CNN by Casanova Love, 26, who said he's in the U.S. Navy. He's visiting his family in Alexandria.

Love said he was standing outside a club with some friends Thursday night when he saw the red pickup drive by slowly with two nooses hanging from it.

He said the truck continued up the street and passed by a large group of Jena 6 protesters standing outside a bus stop. Police then pulled over the vehicle.

Love explained why he sent the photo to CNN: "People need to see this. It's 2007, and we still have fools acting like it's 1960."

State police estimated at least 15,000 people gathered in Jena on Thursday to protest what they consider unequal punishments meted out in recent racially charged cases.

One involved the hanging of nooses from a tree a day after black students sat under what had been an informal gathering place for white students. The students involved were suspended from school for a brief time.

Another was the beating of a white student that resulted in six black teens facing charges that include aggravated second-degree battery.

[Skeeter]

I'm glad I'm not a black man living in the deep south.

I don't even like to talk to rednecks as a white person.

[Sean]

True I'm glad I live in the north.. but I'm also glad my name isn't Casanova Love.

[chillmonster]

Apparently there's a history of racism in Jena. Many black and white residents have said so. It's also one of the few counties where David Duke won the vast majority of votes when he ran for office.

[Nieninque]

Who the hell is Recal, and why, with 28 posts, should I give a shit about anything he says?

-TheE-

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I compel you to find this man guilty. Forget all the evidence you have seen over the past two weeks. Forget anything the defendant himself said in this very lengthy trial. He has only been in court a few times and I have been in load of times therefore I AM TEH WINNAR!!!"

[RichardCranium]

Apparently there's a history of racism in Jena. Many black and white residents have said so. It's also one of the few counties where David Duke won the vast majority of votes when he ran for office.


Picking nits, but we have parishes here.

[Some Rogue]

True I'm glad I live in the north.. but I'm also glad my name isn't Casanova Love.

But you'd make a hell of a pimp with that name.


"Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I compel you to find this man guilty. Forget all the evidence you have seen over the past two weeks. Forget anything the defendant himself said in this very lengthy trial. He has only been in court a few times and I have been in load of times therefore I AM TEH WINNAR!!!"

:rofl:

[chillmonster]

Picking nits, but we have parishes here.

Further picking, I should have said districts. ;p

[Jazuela]

Yeah and it really matters whether it's districts, parishes, or counties. Because y'know - white trailer trash is so much better pickin than black trailer trash. So make sure you know where the line is, and what it's called - so you don't end up on the wrong side of it.

:)