Edwards: sacrifice your SUV's

[Gan]

LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. (AP) -- Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards told a labor group he would ask Americans to make a big sacrifice: their sport utility vehicles.

The former North Carolina senator told a forum by the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers in Lake Buena Vista, Florida, yesterday he thinks Americans are willing to sacrifice.

Edwards says Americans should be asked to drive more fuel efficient vehicles. He says he would ask them to give up SUVs.

http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.nc/22b7034c-www.wlos.com.shtml
__________________________________________________ _________--

Indeed...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/367339841_33a3ef3667.jpg

[Tsa`ah]

While I agree with him ... he's not the person to ask that sacrifice.

[Bobmuhthol]

My SUV stays.

[LazyBard]

I wanna see him make a Costco run or any kind of shopping thats not spur of the moment with fiancee and babies in a honda civic. So basicly I have a choice Minivan or SUV.


I think I will go with SUV for the win Alex.

[Warriorbird]

Once again...STFU, Edwards.

[Sean of the Thread]

I wanna see him make a Costco run or any kind of shopping thats not spur of the moment with fiancee and babies in a honda civic. So basicly I have a choice Minivan or SUV.


I think I will go with SUV for the win Alex.

And minivan for not much longer. Almost all automakers are phasing them out of production in favor of GASP.. compact suv hybrids type dealios.

Minivans whilst non-hetero for a man to sport around are seriously practical for a family.

[Celephais]

Minivans whilst non-hetero for a man to sport around are seriously practical for a family.

Yeah... handle better, better gas mileage, store more... personally when I look at an SUV all I see is a minivan with regular doors instead of sliding ones. It's just some styling cues...

[Bobmuhthol]

SUVs tend to have way more powerful engines, though.

[Celephais]

SUVs tend to have way more powerful engines, though.

Tend being the key word... there are some seriously ballsless SUVs, and there are some minivans with peachs an iron handed monkey couldn't steal. Heh... http://www.turbovan.net/pauls_van.mpg < turbo minivan beats a Z28.

[grapedog]

Uh...Edwards has an SUV, but it's a hybrid...

It's ok to ask people to sacrifice their children for a war we were lied to about...but sacrificing your SUV...oh my FUCKING GOD.

[LazyBard]

And minivan for not much longer. Almost all automakers are phasing them out of production in favor of GASP.. compact suv hybrids type dealios.


I actually wouldnt mind a Hybrid SUV if the ones within my price range actually had enough balls to make it over a speed bump much less fighting through the war zone thats known as Costco on a saturday afternoon. I mean sheesh I have seen 75 year old women drift around 3 rows of parking spots run down 4 pedestrians for that last open parking spot.

[Parkbandit]

Uh...Edwards has an SUV, but it's a hybrid...

It's ok to ask people to sacrifice their children for a war we were lied to about...but sacrificing your SUV...oh my FUCKING GOD.


Grapedog is filling in the Backlash void. Grats.

[Mosquito]

Grapedog is filling in the Backlash void. Grats.

Yes. Grats! Smart > stupid (retarded/mildly retarded/dyslexic/infirmed/clueless/completely inconsiderate).

[CrystalTears]

Yes. Grats! Smart > stupid (retarded/mildly retarded/dyslexic/infirmed/clueless/completely inconsiderate).
You're an idiot no matter what name you post under.

[sst]

Uh...Edwards has an SUV, but it's a hybrid...

It's ok to ask people to sacrifice their children for a war we were lied to about...but sacrificing your SUV...oh my FUCKING GOD.

how does people who die in war have anything to do with SUV's?

[ViridianAsp]

Yes. Grats! Smart > stupid (retarded/mildly retarded/dyslexic/infirmed/clueless/completely inconsiderate).


Fuck you, I am dyselxic.

Asshole.

[Gan]

Grapedog is filling in the Backlash void. Grats.

What void?

The bitch is still here, retarded as ever.

[Parkbandit]

What void?

The bitch is still here, retarded as ever.


But in his extreme effort to remain anonymous, he's toned it down. Granted.. I've been able to pick him out relatively quickly on Mosquito. Stupidity is hard to cloak for long... especially his legendary stupidity.

[Tsa`ah]

how does people who die in war have anything to do with SUV's?

Don't be that guy.

[CrystalTears]

You couldn't say that to the dickhead who made the connection though?

[grapedog]

Parkbandit, thanks for adding input into this discussion...name calling really helps to move it forward....light years even.

People say that America is not a nation that sacrifices...I disagree with that notion. I think the American people have sacrificed a number of times, and mostly during times of war. Asking Americans to sacrifice their car or their food might not be the best campaing election slogan...but it shouldn't be a bad thing to ask.

I have a Jeep Cherokee that I love, but I don't see anything wrong with Edwards asking the American public to give up certain behaviors. America is the most obese country on the planet, is it wrong for people to ask others to watch what they eat, maybe work out a little.

This notion that America, the best part of America, doesn't sacrifice is bullshit. The problem lies with the outlying areas of America that feel entitled to whatever the fuck they want...which is fine. But if you're not willing to put anything into the pot, fuck you when you want something out of it. I'll crush your fucking hands if I get the opportunity...like those assholes that try to get around rush hour traffic by driving in the break down lanes. I love sitting partially in my lane and partially in the break down lane, stopping them from advancing. Get back in line you fucking inbred asshat...

[Tsa`ah]

You couldn't say that to the dickhead who made the connection though?

Well, dickhead or not, there wasn't really a connection rather the question of "it's ok to send kids off to war but it's not ok the ask people to stop buying SUVs"?

It's a valid question of values. Maybe there was a better way to ask it, but he in no way connected deaths through war (agree with the war or not) to the other.

Again, it was questioning values.

Personally, I'm a one thing at a time guy. The environment is an issue, but people dying is a more pressing issue right now ... let's figure out how to get our boys and girls home without creating a need to send them back at a later date. Then let's look domestic issues concerning the environment.

[CrystalTears]

There's nothing with asking people to better themselves. It's hypocritical when an SUV-driving person asks me to give up MY SUV, just like it would be stupid for some fat ass to tell me not to eat hamburgers.

And since we personally cannot do anything about bringing back the troops from Iraq, we CAN at least do something about our environment and our personal lives. I honestly have no idea how they have anything to do with each other.

[grapedog]

There's nothing with asking people to better themselves. It's hypocritical when an SUV-driving person asks me to give up MY SUV, just like it would be stupid for some fat ass to tell me not to eat hamburgers.

How about you get a Hybrid...like Edwards himself drives....

You keep your SUV and you both win...

[Tsa`ah]

There's nothing with asking people to better themselves. It's hypocritical when an SUV-driving person asks me to give up MY SUV, just like it would be stupid for some fat ass to tell me not to eat hamburgers.

And that's why I said Edwards is not the person to pose that particular request.

Even if his SUV is a hybrid, there really is no change in consumption (on the scale of a hybrid SUV compared to say a 6 banger SUV).

[Tsa`ah]

How about you get a Hybrid...like Edwards himself drives....

This is where you're off base.

There's not much of a difference in the total consumption between a hybrid and 6 cylinder SUV. The hybrid weighs more and consumes more gas on the interstate. The standard offering has the benefit of traditional manufacturing and doesn't figure in to the total consumption it takes to produce those huge heavy batteries ... nor will it figure in to the waste factor it will take to dispose of or recycle those huge batteries.

At best, hybrids are a wash, at the worse they're a false sense of environmentalism.

[CrystalTears]

I don't have an SUV, Edwards can honestly shove his hybrid up his ass.

[Parkbandit]

Parkbandit, thanks for adding input into this discussion...name calling really helps to move it forward....light years even.



like those assholes that try to get around rush hour traffic by driving in the break down lanes.


Get back in line you fucking inbred asshat...

Man, you are trying too hard to be Backlash. All this from the same post.

Got Hypocrite?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/hypocrite-1.jpg

[grapedog]

Man, you are trying too hard to be Backlash. All this from the same post.

Got Hypocrite?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/hypocrite-1.jpg

Well, really, you should probably quote my entire post. Not just 1/20th of my post to try and make a point...makes you look silly. I don't mind namecalling, as long as it's mixed in with actual content...you should try it some time...content that is.

[Parkbandit]

How about you get a Hybrid...like Edwards himself drives....

You keep your SUV and you both win...


You know so little about everything. If only you had some money.. I could sell you some carbon offsets to make you feel better about yourself.. while still doing nothing.

Hybrids are worse on the environment than the largest SUV. Construction costs, maintenance and disposal costs far outweigh the small savings in gas.

But hey.. as long as they make you feel good.. why bother with the facts.

[Parkbandit]

Well, really, you should probably quote my entire post. Not just 1/20th of my post to try and make a point...makes you look silly. I don't mind namecalling, as long as it's mixed in with actual content...you should try it some time...content that is.

You are an idiot of backlashian proportions.

Oh, and global warming is bad.

WoW!!! That is easy!

[Tea & Strumpets]

The problem lies with the outlying areas of America ...

I always find it ironic when people just throw blanket statements out in regards to geographical areas. In all honesty, we need the hillbilly balance to offset the pussies that are outlawing "tag", for fuck's sake.

Any of that kind of regionalism is an obvious attempt at patting yourself on the back, usually indulged in by those with low self-esteem.

I live 15 minutes outside of Philly, so I wasn't personally offended. I just find that kind of blatant ignorance mixed with self congratulation to be amusing.


P.S. -- The English are pussies.

[Tsa`ah]

Dar's angry because not only is he a redneck, but he's Irish and can't hold his booze.

[grapedog]

when I said "outlying" areas of America, I wasn't picking any region in specific. I was generalizing the pockets of stupidity that exist everywhere in this country, not just in some particular state. If residents of a particular town believes this planet is only 2000 years old and we sprung up from dirt...thats an outlying pocket of stupidity no matter where it's located.

Hybrids may not be perfect right now...but how long have they been around? How long has the combustion engine been around? Depending on HOW YOU DRIVE, hybrids can provide a benefit. Saying otherwise is just repeating un-educated drivel. If you drive like a speedster, jackrabbiting from stop lights and making frequent stops, you probably won't notice any improvement, I'll grant you that. In general, if driven within a set of norms, you can gain 10%-15% efficiency easily.

This is all not considering that car companies are still making performance hybrids, which drag down the numbers for all SUV hybrids. Whats the logical thinking behind having a V-6 hybrid...it's stupidity. As the technology improves, so will the experience. I'd say give Hybrids as much time as combustion engines...but really, we went to the moon in the 60's and we're still using the same engines for our cars today as we did back then.

Not too mention, we had electric cars previously...with much lower maintinence costs...and overall more efficient than anything else we've done to date. Too efficient unfortunately...

[Tsa`ah]

Hybrids may not be perfect right now...but how long have they been around? How long has the combustion engine been around? Depending on HOW YOU DRIVE, hybrids can provide a benefit. Saying otherwise is just repeating un-educated drivel. If you drive like a speedster, jackrabbiting from stop lights and making frequent stops, you probably won't notice any improvement, I'll grant you that. In general, if driven within a set of norms, you can gain 10%-15% efficiency easily.

You don't get it do you. Hybrids don't afford any more efficiency unless you fit into a specific driving category ... which is very hard to fit into.

If most of your driving is on highways and interstates .... hybrids cause more harm than they do good. If you drive mainly in urban areas, hybrids cause more harm than good. The manufacturing process alone is more resource consuming than the standard offerings.


This is all not considering that car companies are still making performance hybrids, which drag down the numbers for all SUV hybrids. Whats the logical thinking behind having a V-6 hybrid...it's stupidity.

Now you have demonstrated a complete lack of reading comprehension, which should exclude you from any future debate.

No one mentioned a v-6 hybrid, it was a comparison between a 6 cylinder SUV and a hybrid SUV. (coincidentally, you as a Cherokee owner should know better than to throw out the "V" when categorizing engines since it's probable that you have a straight six, or four cylinder engine.) Pound for pound, the hybrid weighs more and gets less economy. Nut jobs like to think they're saving gas and reducing emissions ... but the reality is they are deluding themselves.


As the technology improves, so will the experience. I'd say give Hybrids as much time as combustion engines...but really, we went to the moon in the 60's and we're still using the same engines for our cars today as we did back then.

And you're bad at comparisons. Is the method of locomotion any different now than it was in the 60s in regards to sending a craft into space? And in case no one has told you ... we haven't been back to the moon since.


Not too mention, we had electric cars previously...with much lower maintinence costs...and overall more efficient than anything else we've done to date. Too efficient unfortunately...

Unless the electric cars were hooked up to windmills, solar panels or the like ... I hate to burst your bubble, but the end result was the same. X miles = X fossil fuel. The problem with electric cars were two fold (outside of cost of maintenance which you are completely ignorant of). Range and burden on the grid.

Does this mean we shouldn't look into alternatives? Absolutely not. But I'm sorry to burst your bubble ... hybrids are a gimmick. There are much better ways.

[grapedog]

You don't get it do you. Hybrids don't afford any more efficiency unless you fit into a specific driving category ... which is very hard to fit into.

If most of your driving is on highways and interstates .... hybrids cause more harm than they do good. If you drive mainly in urban areas, hybrids cause more harm than good. The manufacturing process alone is more resource consuming than the standard offerings.



Now you have demonstrated a complete lack of reading comprehension, which should exclude you from any future debate.

No one mentioned a v-6 hybrid, it was a comparison between a 6 cylinder SUV and a hybrid SUV. (coincidentally, you as a Cherokee owner should know better than to throw out the "V" when categorizing engines since it's probable that you have a straight six, or four cylinder engine.) Pound for pound, the hybrid weighs more and gets less economy. Nut jobs like to think they're saving gas and reducing emissions ... but the reality is they are deluding themselves.



And you're bad at comparisons. Is the method of locomotion any different now than it was in the 60s in regards to sending a craft into space? And in case no one has told you ... we haven't been back to the moon since.



Unless the electric cars were hooked up to windmills, solar panels or the like ... I hate to burst your bubble, but the end result was the same. X miles = X fossil fuel. The problem with electric cars were two fold (outside of cost of maintenance which you are completely ignorant of). Range and burden on the grid.

Does this mean we shouldn't look into alternatives? Absolutely not. But I'm sorry to burst your bubble ... hybrids are a gimmick. There are much better ways.

I thought you were a smart poster before, but pretty much everything you've said is either wrong or cherry picked.

[Tsa`ah]

I thought you were a smart poster before, but pretty much everything you've said is either wrong or cherry picked.

I'm smart so long as I'm agreeing with you ... I'm dumb when I point out how flawed believing in hybrids seems to be ...

I feel sorry for your friends.

Why don't you take this time to read up on hybrids, and no ... your Tree Hugger monthly and the Gore/Edwards Environmental Quarterly don't count.

Not even manufacturer literature counts.

[Celephais]

Unless the electric cars were hooked up to windmills, solar panels or the like ... I hate to burst your bubble, but the end result was the same. X miles = X fossil fuel. The problem with electric cars were two fold (outside of cost of maintenance which you are completely ignorant of). Range and burden on the grid.

Actually that's not true... you can burn fossil fuels more efficiently in a plant, you can also scrub the emissions and vent them in a specific location.

Range is an issue, but burden on the grid is a weak arguement, but I think you were looking for something like installation costs (be it grid improvement or making electric fueling/recharging stations).

[Tsa`ah]

The grid is not an issue?

Tell that to the people in cities that experience regular bown outs.

[Celephais]

The grid is not an issue?

Tell that to the people in cities that experience regular bown outs.

I'm going to use your "you're reading what I'm not writing" quote here.

I didn't say it wasn't an issue, I said it was a weak arguement. You also blatently ignored the rest of my comment.

It's a weak arguement because the burden on the grid would we relieved as it became the standard source and improvements were made (hence why I said you were looking for "installation issues"). I also mentioned electric fueling stations (essentially generators instead of gas stations), which would not require a draw from the grid.

But please, before you pick out one little aspect of my comment exactly like you're claiming people are doing to you in the other thread, address the X fuel = X miles statement.

[Tsa`ah]

Let me redirect you to your response.


but burden on the grid is a weak arguement, but I think you were looking for something like installation costs

So I used "issue".

No I wasn't pointing out installation costs. I was pointing out areas that experience frequent brown out ... as those areas already have burden issues on the grids. Hooking up a few thousand electric cars to charge each day would cause extended brown outs.

Installation would have little effect on over burdened grids. These grids are under powered and further burdening them would require more sources of electricity ... which would be counter productive unless those sources were "green".

I wouldn't mind the notion of electric cars for urban driving and intercity mass transit if we had the "green" power to do it ... but for the time being, electic cars pose as much of a problem as gas.

[Celephais]

No I wasn't pointing out installation costs. I was pointing out areas that experience frequent brown out ... as those areas already have burden issues on the grids. Hooking up a few thousand electric cars to charge each day would cause extended brown outs.

Installation would have little effect on over burdened grids. These grids are under powered and further burdening them would require more sources of electricity ... which would be counter productive unless those sources were "green".

I'm curious as to what you think installation is? Do you think it means they're installing Taco Bells? No it means they would need to install either stations for car refueling, leaving them off the grid entirely, or they would need to install improvements to the grid.

The sources do not need to be "green" to improve our fossil fuel utilization, you do understand that a power plant can turn a gallon of gas into more non-waste energy than a car can... all that heat that comes out your exhaust a power plant could reuse, so say a car would normally get 30 MPG, if you burned a gallon of gas in a power plant you could produce enough electricity to get that car to go 60 miles. You could also install scrubbers in the power plant (that would be too expensive to install on each and every car), so the emissions aren't as harmful when they leave the plant.


I wouldn't mind the notion of electric cars for urban driving and intercity mass transit if we had the "green" power to do it ... but for the time being, electic cars pose as much of a problem as gas.
It really seems like you don't understand anything about efficiency.

[Latrinsorm]

It always comes back to the Mexicans.

[Tsa`ah]

I'm curious as to what you think installation is? Do you think it means they're installing Taco Bells? No it means they would need to install either stations for car refueling, leaving them off the grid entirely, or they would need to install improvements to the grid.

The sources do not need to be "green" to improve our fossil fuel utilization, you do understand that a power plant can turn a gallon of gas into more non-waste energy than a car can... all that heat that comes out your exhaust a power plant could reuse, so say a car would normally get 30 MPG, if you burned a gallon of gas in a power plant you could produce enough electricity to get that car to go 60 miles. You could also install scrubbers in the power plant (that would be too expensive to install on each and every car), so the emissions aren't as harmful when they leave the plant.


It really seems like you don't understand anything about efficiency.

Actually, I do. Fossil fuels are limited. It doesn't matter how far you stretch the fuel in the power plant (that requires less efficient burning of fuels to build ... thus making the entire scenario a wash in the end), "Installing", as you put it, more power plants (or expanding) will only go so far.

Thus, not very efficient.

Maybe you would like to try some more circular arguments?

My direction would be alternatives simply because fossil fuels are pretty counter productive. Of course we live in a "live for today and tomorrow be damned" society ... so we're not likely to see any true efficiency until necessity dictates it.

[Celephais]

Some quick info on engine efficiency:
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/102spring2002_Web_projects/Z.Yates/Zach's%20Web%20Project%20Folder/EICE%20-%20Main.htm

Most gasoline cars - 20% of the combustion is converted into work

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=ind_focus.story&STORY=/www/story/08-27-2007/0004652038&EDATE=MON+Aug+27+2007,+02:05+PM

Nuclear power plants - 98% (I'm not going to go digging for the info cause I didn't find it in my first search, but a fossil fuel power plant you could expect to see at LEAST 40% by the time it gets to the car... then mechanically the car would reduce that, but it'd certainly be better then the 20% now)

[Celephais]

Actually, I do. Fossil fuels are limited. It doesn't matter how far you stretch the fuel in the power plant (that requires less efficient burning of fuels to build ... thus making the entire scenario a wash in the end), "Installing", as you put it, more power plants (or expanding) will only go so far.

Thus, not very efficient.

Maybe you would like to try some more circular arguments?

My direction would be alternatives simply because fossil fuels are pretty counter productive. Of course we live in a "live for today and tomorrow be damned" society ... so we're not likely to see any true efficiency until necessity dictates it.
It's like you think electric cars depend on fossil fuels... Installation doesn't have to be fossil fuel dependant... nuclear plants would be ideal.

[Tsa`ah]

It's like you think electric cars depend on fossil fuels... Installation doesn't have to be fossil fuel dependant... nuclear plants would be ideal.

No, it's like I think electric cars depend on electricity, most of which is produced by fossil fuels. I'd be for nuclear power if we could figure out a good way of disposing of DU and other wastes ... and make the possibility of meltdown almost zilch.

[Apathy]

How about you get a Hybrid...like Edwards himself drives....

You keep your SUV and you both win...

LOL @ "Hybrid" SUV.

You fucking moron.

[Gan]

Wait until you see the new hybrid NASCAR series.

:whistle:

[Mosquito]

Unfortunately, what passes as a hybrid in this country is a joke. The demand is there and smart companies are reaping the harvest. Detroit needs a paradigm shift... no, I take that back, it needs to be smart if it wants to stay profitable.

The question is, why aren't they?

[Hulkein]

Better yet, more people need to move to the city so they can take public transportation or bike/walk to their jobs. Suburbs are weak.

[Mosquito]

Better yet, more people need to move to the city so they can take public transportation or bike/walk to their jobs. Suburbs are weak.

Great point. Put your money into your local community and not someone else's pockets.

[Warriorbird]

Sometimes I wish we had a system like Eurail. Trains are great.

[grapedog]

Sometimes I wish we had a system like Eurail. Trains are great.

I have made that wish many many times. I would visit my sister in Texas and my parents in Massachusetts a lot more often if I could just hop on a train and head there. Sure, it would take a little longer, but it could be a LOT more comfortable.

It would take a massive amount of cash to get something like that going, and Americans are very...now...oriented...which is the bonus of plane flights. Most people don't enjoy the trip because the trip on an airplane sucks. That could be changed with a good railway set up.

[Gan]

Give me the ability to plug in my laptop or Ipod on a train and armed with lots of books and I'd be all over the train thing. Trains are cool. I hate driving long distances, period. Flying>Trains>Driving>Bus.

Now cruises.... thats another story. :)

[Gelston]

A moving bar with a place to smoke would be excellent.

[Kembal]

Forget going to another state on a train, I'd prefer going to Dallas on a train. Taking an airplane almost takes as much time as driving there these days, due to having to be at the airport at least an hour early, more if you've got bags to check.

Damned incompetent Texas state government instead, building a random toll road out in the middle of nowhere.

[Gan]

Forget going to another state on a train, I'd prefer going to Dallas on a train. Taking an airplane almost takes as much time as driving there these days, due to having to be at the airport at least an hour early, more if you've got bags to check.

/Agreed

Drive time from Houston to Dallas = 4 hours if you drive normally, less if you drive like me.

Flight time from Houston to Dallas = 45 minutes. + 30 min. boarding time. + 1 hour arrival at airport time (to get through security/bag check). + 30 minute park/ride time. + 30 min. arrival/bag claim/car rental time.