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Gan
08-06-2007, 08:34 AM
Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping
By JAMES RISEN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/r/james_risen/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

WASHINGTON, Aug. 5 — President Bush signed into law on Sunday legislation that broadly expanded the government’s authority to eavesdrop on the international telephone calls and e-mail messages of American citizens without warrants.

Congressional aides and others familiar with the details of the law said that its impact went far beyond the small fixes that administration officials had said were needed to gather information about foreign terrorists. They said seemingly subtle changes in legislative language would sharply alter the legal limits on the government’s ability to monitor millions of phone calls and e-mail messages going in and out of the United States.

They also said that the new law for the first time provided a legal framework for much of the surveillance without warrants that was being conducted in secret by the National Security Agency (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/national_security_agency/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and outside the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the 1978 law that is supposed to regulate the way the government can listen to the private communications of American citizens.

“This more or less legalizes the N.S.A. program,” said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies in Washington, who has studied the new legislation.

Previously, the government needed search warrants approved by a special intelligence court to eavesdrop on telephone conversations, e-mail messages and other electronic communications between individuals inside the United States and people overseas, if the government conducted the surveillance inside the United States.

Today, most international telephone conversations to and from the United States are conducted over fiber-optic cables, and the most efficient way for the government to eavesdrop on them is to latch on to giant telecommunications switches located in the United States.

By changing the legal definition of what is considered “electronic surveillance,” the new law allows the government to eavesdrop on those conversations without warrants — latching on to those giant switches — as long as the target of the government’s surveillance is “reasonably believed” to be overseas.

For example, if a person in Indianapolis calls someone in London, the National Security Agency can eavesdrop on that conversation without a warrant, as long as the N.S.A.’s target is the person in London.

Tony Fratto, a White House spokesman, said Sunday in an interview that the new law went beyond fixing the foreign-to-foreign problem, potentially allowing the government to listen to Americans calling overseas.

But he stressed that the objective of the new law is to give the government greater flexibility in focusing on foreign suspects overseas, not to go after Americans.

“It’s foreign, that’s the point,” Mr. Fratto said. “What you want to make sure is that you are getting the foreign target.”

The legislation to change the surveillance act was rushed through both the House and Senate in the last days before the August recess began.
The White House’s push for the change was driven in part by a still-classified ruling earlier this year by the special intelligence court, which said the government needed to seek court-approved warrants to monitor those international calls going through American switches.

The new law, which is intended as a stopgap and expires in six months, also represents a power shift in terms of the oversight and regulation of government surveillance.

The new law gives the attorney general and the director of national intelligence the power to approve the international surveillance, rather than the special intelligence court. The court’s only role will be to review and approve the procedures used by the government in the surveillance after it has been conducted. It will not scrutinize the cases of the individuals being monitored.

The law also gave the administration greater power to force telecommunications companies to cooperate with such spying operations. The companies can now be compelled to cooperate by orders from the attorney general and the director of national intelligence.

Democratic Congressional aides said Sunday that some telecommunications company officials had told Congressional leaders that they were unhappy with that provision in the bill and might challenge the new law in court. The aides said the telecommunications companies had told lawmakers that they would rather have a court-approved warrant ordering them to comply.

In fact, pressure from the telecommunications companies on the Bush administration has apparently played a major hidden role in the political battle over the surveillance issue over the past few months.

In January, the administration placed the N.S.A.’s warrantless wiretapping program under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and subjected it for the first time to the scrutiny of the FISA court.

Democratic Congressional aides said Sunday that they believed that pressure from major telecommunications companies on the White House was a major factor in persuading the Bush administration to do that.

Those companies were facing major lawsuits for having secretly cooperated with the warrantless wiretapping program, and now wanted greater legal protections before cooperating further.

But the change suddenly swamped the court with an enormous volume of search warrant applications, leading, in turn, to the administration’s decision to seek the new legislation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/06/washington/06nsa.html?ei=5065&en=4e05f95a4b60ac78&ex=1187064000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print
______________________________________

Good thing?

Bad thing?

How did this bill fare through both houses with enough momentum to get to Bush's desk?

Discuss. (I'll try to participate if I can access the PC from work)

I'm suprised that it hasnt been posted yet, seems the politics folder is slacking of late. :(

Khariz
08-06-2007, 11:24 AM
Very much good thing.

Congress likes to play play about politics, but its nice to see that something extremely necessary can still squeeze through.

Skeeter
08-06-2007, 11:44 AM
I have no problem with this at all.

Kembal
08-06-2007, 11:46 AM
Bad thing, if only because the person with the authority to sign off on surveillance is Alberto Gonzales. Regardless of my personal opinions of him, there's no denying a good portion of the electorate does not consider him trustworthy, and giving him that power does not help. I'd rather have it with the FISA court still.

And the article is incorrect as to the momentum for the new law. It's not due to the FISA court being swamped with applications...a FISA judge invalidated much of the warrantless wiretapping program in a secret ruling a few months ago. Newsweek broke the story last week: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20075751/site/newsweek/. That invalidation required this law to be passed to keep the program functioning under pretty much the same parameters.

Edited to add: Gan, you asked how did this get through both houses of Congress? I'm not certain about the Senate, but in the House, it's generally because most of the Blue Dog caucus and other conservative Democrats voted for it.

Gan
08-06-2007, 12:06 PM
For the record:I dont have a problem with the new law.

Parkbandit
08-06-2007, 02:33 PM
Way to allow King George to take away our civil liberties. He's only doing this to make his rich oil friends richer.

Kembal
08-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Truthfully, there's no real reason for warrantless wiretaps. FISA judges can approve extremely quickly a warrant if need be.

There was a story a couple of weeks ago about a former FISA judge talking about how on the day of 9/11, he was driving near the Pentagon when the attack on the Pentagon occurred and traffic got shutdown...the FBI set him up to start approving warrants immediately from his car. Let me see if I can find it...here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/25/AR2007062501901.html

If the current Attorney General had the confidence and trust of a wide swath of the American electorate, this law might be a bit more palatable. But he does not.

Ignot
08-06-2007, 07:35 PM
I don't have a problem with it either. Anything that makes it easier to catch criminals/terrorists is good in my opinion b/c I am not do anything illegal. I think we have to change with time and it would be unreasonable to think that our constitution would not be challenged because of it.

TheEschaton
08-06-2007, 10:08 PM
I'm more shocked at how you guys don't have a problem with this.

It seems to be using a technicality (target being foreign) to prevent what would OTHERWISE be wholly unconstitutional. Without having read the law at all, I'd like to know whether the SCOTUS would feel the rights of the U.S. citizen are being violated despite the supposed targetting of a foreign citizen.

It's hard to say "I'm not violating TheE's right to privacy, I'm violating his uncle's privacy in India by latching onto a call from the U.S. side."

-TheE-

Hulkein
08-06-2007, 10:57 PM
Slippery slope is really the only reason this particular bill would worry me. TheE's uncle doesn't have any rights under our Constitution.

TheEschaton
08-07-2007, 12:00 AM
Even if I believed the Constitution should apply only to Americans, and not be a guiding principle in how we treat others, I do have rights, and isn't listening to my conversation without a warrant ipso facto violative of my right to privacy and not having the government intrude?

More pertinent - if they arbitrarily decide my uncle in India is a target...then listen to our phone call...and then find out I am doing something illegal in re: to supporting terrorists, and my uncle is simply someone I'm relaying this to, can they then use the phone call against me? If so, the law is constitutionally suspect.

-TheE-

Skeeter
08-07-2007, 12:20 AM
I fucking KNEW you were a terrorist.

TheEschaton
08-07-2007, 12:21 AM
But my uncle is the target! He's just a passive listener, and our laws don't apply to him, we can't nab him for failure to report a conspiracy!

/devilsadvocate

sst
08-07-2007, 06:30 AM
Yes WE can't nab him, but the Indian Government can, then in "questioning" he tells all about your plans. Who needs the evidence from the tap then. There are ways around everything. I'm greatful that it makes things easier to stop terrorism, lets hope they continue to come up with more ways to get the infomation needed to keep everyone safe.

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 06:56 AM
Seems a fucking stupid law to me.

"But he stressed that the objective of the new law is to give the government greater flexibility in focusing on foreign suspects overseas, not to go after Americans"

We dont care about American Terrorists, just the brown ones.

TheEschaton
08-07-2007, 08:02 AM
It seems like using a technicality to skirt a constitutional issue, and if past events are any indicator, SCOTUS won't approve of that.

By the way, if the wire tap is deemed illegal, Dave, anything that comes from the wire tap is illegal/can't be used in a case against you.

Hulkein
08-07-2007, 09:13 AM
It seems like using a technicality to skirt a constitutional issue

Yeah, I agree.

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 09:24 AM
Yes WE can't nab him, but the Indian Government can, then in "questioning" he tells all about your plans. Who needs the evidence from the tap then. There are ways around everything. I'm greatful that it makes things easier to stop terrorism, lets hope they continue to come up with more ways to get the infomation needed to keep everyone safe.

Martial Law is pretty good, I've heard.

Drinin
08-07-2007, 10:24 AM
Doesn't bother me at all.

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 10:39 AM
When Hitler attacked the Jews
I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics,
I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists,
I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church --
and there was nobody left to be concerned.

Pastor Niemoller

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 10:43 AM
Where is Xtc ro remind us that the UK is happier to see their civil liberties eroded than the Americans?

CrystalTears
08-07-2007, 10:45 AM
Where is Xtc ro remind us that the UK is happier to see their civil liberties eroded than the Americans?
He should be the new Lord Voldermort cause he pops up when we least want him to. But this comment was :lol: worthy.

Tea & Strumpets
08-07-2007, 10:45 AM
I'm not a big fan of the government listening in on phone conversations with little to no cause. I'd rather the government did not have the go ahead to listen to my phone calls whenever they feel like it (in this case, whenever they feel like it when I'm calling overseas).

I can deal with it in the short-term, and I'm willing to lose some privacy for security, but I'd prefer it not be the new norm.

P.S. - I am not a terrorist. I'm sure Parkbandit has already reported this post to the NSA.

Stanley Burrell
08-07-2007, 10:53 AM
I don't care. There's been a Carnivore Program.

99% of the time, they're listening to your conversation for, like, half a minute before being all, "NEXT!" up in the phone-piece, suckaz. One love.

Gan
08-07-2007, 11:09 AM
I love it when folks act like its a big deal of someone listening in on their phone conversation when they happen to be speaking so loudly on their cell phone that half the building they're in can hear at least one side of it... both sides if they're using the stupid nextel walkie talkie function.

Get over yourself folks. Its not a huge deal and what your talking about is not so important in the big scheme of things. Especially if you arent talking about doing something (past and future tense) thats illegal here in the good old USA.

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 11:42 AM
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/EPH/8309~I-Wasn-t-Using-My-Civil-Liberties-Posters.jpg

CrystalTears
08-07-2007, 11:47 AM
I love it when folks act like its a big deal of someone listening in on their phone conversation when they happen to be speaking so loudly on their cell phone that half the building they're in can hear at least one side of it... both sides if they're using the stupid nextel walkie talkie function.

I hate those walkie talkie cell phones. It's hardly ever just a second of "I'm here, come on over". No, it's a fucking long conversation, including really annoying beeps inbetween. Bitch, call him! I don't want to hear your conversation, let alone his side.

Yeah not seeing the big deal. With all the people screaming their conversations among strangers, it's funny how they get bent out of the shape at the thought that someone could hear it. Pft. They'd fall asleep listening to my calls anyway, the very few I make as it is. Unless they were interested in hearing my aunt's recipe for chicken fricassee.

Gan
08-07-2007, 12:09 PM
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/EPH/8309~I-Wasn-t-Using-My-Civil-Liberties-Posters.jpg

You're right. You werent.

http://mylondondiary.co.uk/2005/03/10/050310_n006.jpg

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 12:13 PM
Because it's so similar.

Having security cameras outside a government building is just the same as the Government having the right to listen to any telephone call they want.

Oh wait...

Gan
08-07-2007, 12:16 PM
Arent they in more places than just outside government buildings?

Last report I saw they were being put up everywhere (read all public places).

And yea, running facial recognition software on folks walking down the street is pretty much the same as having a computer alogrythim monitor overseas calls for keywords of interest.

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 12:20 PM
Arent they in more places than just outside government buildings?

Last report I saw they were being put up everywhere (read all public places).

Good grief. No they are not everywhere. Yes they are in a lot of public places. ALL public places? ROFL.

Edit: There is one camera in my home town in a public place...just to highlight that. It's a fair sized town btw. End Edit.


And yea, running facial recognition software on folks walking down the street is pretty much the same as having a computer alogrythim monitor overseas calls for keywords of interest.

HAHAHA....most of the time there is no-one there. I know this because I have twice been a victim of crime in range of security cameras that provided no support for my claims.

As for facial recognition software...hahahaha. It's a bonus if the cameras are turned on.

Gan
08-07-2007, 12:25 PM
Good grief. No they are not everywhere. Yes they are in a lot of public places. ALL public places? ROFL.

Edit: There is one camera in my home town in a public place...just to highlight that. It's a fair sized town btw. End Edit.



HAHAHA....most of the time there is no-one there. I know this because I have twice been a victim of crime in range of security cameras that provided no support for my claims.

As for facial recognition software...hahahaha. It's a bonus if the cameras are turned on.

I dont know if I'd really be laughing at what you just described. :(

Its sad on several levels.

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 12:35 PM
It is, but in terms of likening it to the breach of civil liberties that you lot are facing, it doesnt come close.

CrystalTears
08-07-2007, 12:36 PM
So if there aren't cameras in EVERY public place there, what makes anyone think that we'll have someone listening to EVERYONE'S phone calls here?

Gan
08-07-2007, 12:37 PM
Because Alberto Gonzalez is the anti-christ and has all powers to do anything and everything to destroy the civil liberties of not only US Citizens but also liberties that foreigners dont really have. Oh and he works for Bush, who is the devil.

Gan
08-07-2007, 12:44 PM
It is, but in terms of likening it to the breach of civil liberties that you lot are facing, it doesnt come close.
Thats your opinion.

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 12:45 PM
So if there aren't cameras in EVERY public place there, what makes anyone think that we'll have someone listening to EVERYONE'S phone calls here?

I dont think for one minute that everyone's phone calls will be listened to.
But the fact is that if the powers that be do so desire, they dont need any other reason to do so other than the fact that they want to.

Kembal
08-07-2007, 01:02 PM
I dont think for one minute that everyone's phone calls will be listened to.
But the fact is that if the powers that be do so desire, they dont need any other reason to do so other than the fact that they want to.

This is pretty much the problem. The administration does not have to provide specific justification to anyone as to why they've chose to tap them, as long as they certify to themselves that it's "directed at" a foriegn target. And there's no review of individual cases permitted.

Which means they're now free to tap anyone and make up the certification, and no one would be the wiser. Direct violation of the 4th Amendment, and the only way it'll be challengable in the courts is if you can prove you have standing to challenge, which is impossible because the records that would show you have been tapped (and thus have standing) have been classified and are not accessible to you.

Even worse, while the bill itself ends in 6 months (or earlier if Congress decides to pass something else as a permanent version), the wiretapping orders issued under the law do not die with the sunset. In fact, they may be continued in perpetuity, unless specifically ended by the government.

DeV
08-07-2007, 01:14 PM
I love it when folks act like its a big deal of someone listening in on their phone conversation when they happen to be speaking so loudly on their cell phone that half the building they're in can hear at least one side of it... both sides if they're using the stupid nextel walkie talkie function.Because someone aiding and abetting a terrorist in another country is really going to fit this profile...

But, yeah, the dumb fucks who do this are a civil annoyance to everyone.

I do believe it's natural that most people are initially resistant to giving up their protections from government intrustion even if it pertains to something that won't directly impact them at any point in their life. With that said, I don't have any huge issues with this as long as it doesn't fester into other aspects of some of the most common of our civil liberties. After all, they're considered civil liberties for a reason.

Nieninque
08-07-2007, 01:36 PM
Thats your opinion.

OMG U MEEN FINKS POWSTID ON A MESIDGE BORD R OPINYUNS?

TheEschaton
08-07-2007, 07:35 PM
The scary part of this bill is that it has to have a reasonable belief not that the target is a foreigner, nor that the person is a terrorist, but a reasonable belief that the person IS OVERSEAS.

Which basically means the government could listen to the conversation of two Americans, as long as the government thought one of them was in, say, Canada.

Or, maybe one of them has a funny accent, and the government can be like, "Hmmm, maybe he doesn't live here..."

-TheE-

Jessaril
08-07-2007, 11:54 PM
The scary part of this bill for me, is that it sets a precedent for the erosion of privacy.

Bobmuhthol
08-07-2007, 11:56 PM
The scary part of this bill is that it has to have ... a reasonable belief that the person IS OVERSEAS.

Which basically means the government could listen ... as long as the government thought one of them was in, say, Canada.
Did you.. did you seriously just say this?

TheEschaton
08-08-2007, 12:00 AM
I meant foreign jurisdictions. Most countries, in relation to the U.S., are overseas.

But it still holds true for people in Canada.