Real ID

[Clove]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

I'm sure it's been discussed here before, but my search for Real ID threads came up wanting.

Opinions? Do we need a National ID or don't we?

[Parkbandit]

Do we need a uniform national ID that is far more difficult to counterfeit than the 50+ different ones that we currently have?

Hell yes.

[Warriorbird]

We definitely need a far better identification system than what we have. Passport system too, though that's somewhat international.

[Artha]

Sounds like getting a driver's license renewed is going to be a major pain in the ass.

[Gan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

I'm sure it's been discussed here before, but my search for Real ID threads came up wanting.

Opinions? Do we need a National ID or don't we?

Yes

(a poll on this would have been cool)

[Kefka]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=13488&highlight=RFID

This is the discussion we had years ago. The main concern was RFID. It contained a chip that worked like a GPS tracker. The discussion died down, but wondering if this is still the case? Would it still be a crime to not have this ID on your person at all times? To be attached to a military spending bill as a rider makes it seem less than legit. What senator would vote against any bill funding the military back then?

[Skeeter]

I think a national ID is a great idea

[Khariz]

I do too. I'm game.

[CrystalTears]

Where are all the nay sayers with "IT WILL VIOLATE MY FARGIN' RIGHTS!"?

[Gan]

Holy shit look at all the conservative thinking on this thread (so far). Careful, we dont want to crash the boards.

:lol:

[Warriorbird]

Eh. Nationalists and Communists would be all about a real ID system.

With that said...I think it could have a tremendous amount of benefits myself.

[Skeeter]

I don't really see how it's any different than carrying a state issued ID

[Parkbandit]

I don't really see how it's any different than carrying a state issued ID

BINGO!

But somehow the liberals in this country will make it into the Government trying to track people with microchips or some equally stupid method.

I just hope that if this comes about, that they actually verify the information used to GET the Real ID.

[Warriorbird]

Eh. I'm sorry. You can't really make this one out as "just liberals" being against it. What happens is a decent bill will get proposed...then it will get Congressed into ineffectiveness...and then everybody will be against it. There's a lot of major corporations that wouldn't be thrilled by having to have their workers have a strong ID.

[Hulkein]

Holy shit look at all the conservative thinking on this thread (so far). Careful, we dont want to crash the boards.

:lol:

Traditionally, conservatives would be against this I would think.

I'm for it since my experience in getting a fake ID always involves getting a different state ID that people aren't familiar with and is easier to duplicate than PA's license. A sophisticated national ID would solve both problems.

Absolutely no RFID tracking chips or whatever Kefka mentioned.

[Gan]

Traditionally, conservatives would be against this I would think.

I'm for it since my experience in getting a fake ID always involves getting a different state one that people aren't familiar with/is easier to duplicate than PA's license which is pretty good in terms of difficulty to reproduce.

I'm recalling the previous thread(s) and the resulting discussion revolving around a national ID card program.

I think I'll go see if I can dig up a few of them.

[Hulkein]

Oh I know Gan. I just mean that traditionally, conservatives are more pro-state/municipal government and giving this responsibility to the national government would probably be frowned upon.

[Gan]

Oh I know Gan. I just mean that traditionally, conservatives are more pro-state/municipal government and giving this responsibility to the national government would probably be frowned upon.

Yea, I can see where that would come into play. Its curious how thats compromised in part for national security and other things like voting accuracy.

Here's a link from past discussions.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=21210 (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=21210&highlight=federal)

[Back]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=21210 (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=21210&highlight=federal)

JFC some things never change around here.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Hulkein
Oh I know Gan. I just mean that traditionally, conservatives are more pro-state/municipal government and giving this responsibility to the national government would probably be frowned upon.

The article in the OP about Real IDs more or less says the national gov't just establishes guidelines for what has to be on the card but it's upto the states to figure out how they feel like implementing the changes.

I wonder though if you live in places like NH, Utah, etc. who reject the notion of a Real ID how you'd fly internationally since your ID wouldn't conform with the standards that the TSA would be looking for.

On the basic level I don't have any major issues with a national ID I just think it'd be kinda funny if you'd have to present documentation of a social security card to get one.

[DeV]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=21210

Good link. It actually shows a somewhat lively debate, excluding the usual filler garbage, including liberals as well as conservatives agreeing for the most part that a national ID card would be a good idea.

It's not so much of a conservative thinking initiative as it is a common sense one. That's the way I see it at least.

[Gan]

JFC some things never change around here.

Yes, you represent that pretty much every time you post.

[Parkbandit]

Traditionally, conservatives would be against this I would think.

I'm for it since my experience in getting a fake ID always involves getting a different state ID that people aren't familiar with and is easier to duplicate than PA's license. A sophisticated national ID would solve both problems.

Absolutely no RFID tracking chips or whatever Kefka mentioned.

I don't agree or disagree with things, according to what the Democratic or Republican party thinks.. I agree or disagree with things according to my views and values. Fuck both parties imo.. bunch of crooked pieces of shit, who only look out for themselves.

I'm not for tracking of any sort in this ID, but I am for some sort of biometric data that would be tough to counterfeit and accurately let law enforcement know if that ID is really yours or not.

Why would they need to be able to track the IDs?

[Gan]

I'd like to see this ID linked to a national law enforcement database (linking state databases) so warrants can be detected immediately (and acted upon) when the ID is run for priors during a stop for a violation of any law by the individual furnishing the ID.

[Sean]

I don't mind the idea of acting on warrants. Although I think less people would stop for the police if that were the case. That being said I'm not sure I need some out of state cop in west bumfuck knowing how many parking tickets i have back here in Jersey when deciding if hes going to write me a ticket or not.

[Gan]

I don't mind the idea of acting on warrants. Although I think less people would stop for the police if that were the case. That being said I'm not sure I need some out of state cop in west bumfuck knowing how many parking tickets i have back here in Jersey when deciding if hes going to write me a ticket or not.

I can definately see where that would play into their power of discretionary authority. Perhaps if only warrants were listed when an ID was queried into the database. Non moving violations of course wouldnt need to be included in the national db, nor would anything else except for what was required for registration, like being registered with the national sex offender database, being on active parole, house arrest, etc.

[Clove]

I don't mind the idea of acting on warrants. Although I think less people would stop for the police if that were the case. That being said I'm not sure I need some out of state cop in west bumfuck knowing how many parking tickets i have back here in Jersey when deciding if hes going to write me a ticket or not.

Less people would stop? Er, like the ones who have warrants out on them?

[Clove]

A poll would be interesting, but more than that I wanted to hear what people's opinions on Real ID are today. More than just an "Aye" "Nay". My coworker is flipped out because he's afraid our SSN's would be included info, but I don't see that as a requirement of the standard (only that you must provide an SS card to obtain a Real ID).

[ElanthianSiren]

It's always been about the scope of its use for me (primarily) and how readily states choose to adopt it. You can't claim it's a national ID with non or partial compliance, which is a caveat noted in the initial page of this thread. Then, national IDs are just another piece of crap taking up space in your wallet/purse (ughh) when you're looking for your visa.

It may be a step toward some social overhauls that are necessary in the system, but what are the odds it'd take less than a ridiculous number of years to bring in those overhauls after the IDs are instituted (payoff)? All in all, I'm neutral about it now; I really just don't care overly much.

[Drew]

I'm against it. The Federal government, as laid out in the constitution, has no legitimate purpose for creating a national ID. It can regulate commerce between the states just fine without one. The more power we give to the government the more abuse we open ourselves up to.

[Gan]

Format:
single federal/national format (meaining all the same info is displayed in the same way no matter what state the ID is generated from)

Data on card:
Name:
Address:
Federal ID no:
dob/height/weight/eye color/sex
DL: state DL issued, license no., class, restrictions, endorsements (this portion blank if issued only as an ID with no license)
Expiration date:
Picture:
Signature:


This would replace the individual state issued ID cards and drivers licenses.

The cost would be a few bucks more if at all, in order to contribute to the maintenance of the national database.

This would be issued by the same license offices already existing in each state, the only difference is the format of the card (uniform with all other states now) and the inclusion of a federal ID number.

Magnetic strip on back would contain same info that most state licenses already carry along with any federal database info regarding warrants, probation, parole, registered offender lists, or any other court ordered condition of release.

State licenses/ID cards would be turned in/destroyed as being no longer valid.

Participation would be the same as required by laws in each state with regards to having to show proof of ID or drivers license.

[Sean]

So whose loading up the bus with all the nursing home residents to go get them new IDs?

[Stanley Burrell]

Yeah, alright, so, maybe we'll find a whopping third of an entire terrorist *after* the database is done being false alarm-red-flagged for every single eeeevil entity who tries to not legally drink and/or smoke tobacco products and/or enter d'club.

Good mo'fucking luck. Hopefully Gitmo doesn't get too packed with eighteen year old threat-to-national-security bootleggers and sixteen year old tobacco terrorists. This isn't going to scare Mahmoud the janitor from using his 7-11's phone after closing hours to scam social security numbers, or any other non-race/religion/ethos/gender-specific douchebag from fishing. They (the people responsible for, and, those who are now oh-so-cleverly reading over this paperwork :rolleyes:) need to fellate their pride up and trash a bunch of GO U.S.A.! doctrine that was meant specifically for PR. And never, ever, ever, ever meant to unfold into the inadvertently catastrophic cost-of-gold trashpiles of Federal and Central Intelligence moth fodder.

We'd have a better surplus and a nice lack of following the wrong trail if politicians knew how to properly use the papershredder.

Good God: It takes much less effort (and reaps infinite more effectiveness) to start following SS #'s and penalizing the fuck out of said SS frauders, which I'm sure would be a terrorism loophole that could be fixed instead of this dumbshit can of worms.

</:soap:>

[ElanthianSiren]

So whose loading up the bus with all the nursing home residents to go get them new IDs?

Who's working overtime at the DMV? I'm picturing even 1/4 of all PA residents procrastinating until the last day possible.

To Gan: I believe that the supreme court will strike down any mandatory ID that has a cost associated with it as we saw with the voter ID issue in SD (I think).

[Gan]

So whose loading up the bus with all the nursing home residents to go get them new IDs?

Why would nursing home residents need them? Other than demonstrating proof of insurance at the hospital, I cant think of anything else they would require an ID for unless they were frequent air travellers.

[Gan]

To Gan: I believe that the supreme court will strike down any mandatory ID that has a cost associated with it as we saw with the voter ID issue in SD (I think).

Considering the ID would be a replacement for the state ID, I wouldnt think they would strike it down.

[Gan]

Yeah, alright, so, maybe we'll find a whopping third of an entire terrorist *after* the database is done being false alarm-red-flagged for every single eeeevil entity who tries to not legally drink and/or smoke tobacco products and/or enter d'club.

Good mo'fucking luck. Hopefully Gitmo doesn't get too packed with eighteen year old threat-to-national-security bootleggers and sixteen year old tobacco terrorists. This isn't going to scare Mahmoud the janitor from using his 7-11's phone after closing hours to scam social security numbers, or any other non-race/religion/ethos/gender-specific douchebag from fishing. They (the people responsible for, and, those who are now oh-so-cleverly reading over this paperwork :rolleyes:) need to fellate their pride up and trash a bunch of GO U.S.A.! doctrine that was meant specifically for PR. And never, ever, ever, ever meant to unfold into the inadvertently catastrophic cost-of-gold trashpiles of Federal and Central Intelligence moth fodder.

We'd have a better surplus and a nice lack of following the wrong trail if politicians knew how to properly use the papershredder.

Good God: It takes much less effort (and reaps infinite more effectiveness) to start following SS #'s and penalizing the fuck out of said SS frauders, which I'm sure would be a terrorism loophole that could be fixed instead of this dumbshit can of worms.

</:soap:>

I'm trying to follow your line of thought; however, I'm sober so its not going so well. :(

[ElanthianSiren]

Considering the ID would be a replacement for the state ID, I wouldnt think they would strike it down.

You don't think people would try to litigate it as so inconvenient as to cause an undue burden (relative to the state system)? We are talking about legislature. All in all, I don't know precisely, but I do see that as being a hurdle for it, especially if they charge.

[Stanley Burrell]

Yeah, alright, so, maybe we'll find a whopping third of an entire terrorist *after* the database is done being false alarm-red-flagged for every single eeeevil entity who tries to not legally drink and/or smoke tobacco products and/or enter d'club.

Good mo'fucking luck. Hopefully Gitmo doesn't get too packed with eighteen year old threat-to-national-security bootleggers and sixteen year old tobacco terrorists. This isn't going to scare Mahmoud the janitor from using his 7-11's phone after closing hours to scam social security numbers, or any other non-race/religion/ethos/gender-specific douchebag from fishing. They (the people responsible for, and, those who are now oh-so-cleverly reading over this paperwork :rolleyes:) need to fellate their pride up and trash a bunch of GO U.S.A.! doctrine that was meant specifically for PR. And never, ever, ever, ever meant to unfold into the inadvertently catastrophic cost-of-gold trashpiles of Federal and Central Intelligence moth fodder.

We'd have a better surplus and a nice lack of following the wrong trail if politicians knew how to properly use the papershredder.

Good God: It takes much less effort (and reaps infinite more effectiveness) to start following SS #'s and penalizing the fuck out of said SS frauders, which I'm sure would be a terrorism loophole that could be fixed instead of this dumbshit can of worms.

</:soap:>


I'm trying to follow your line of thought; however, I'm sober so its not going so well. :(

My first paragraph is in line with Driver's Licences and age groups.

My second paragraph is in line with Driver's Licences and age groups.

My third paragraph is what people would do if they stopped being politicians.

My fourth paragraph foreshadows my fifth paragraph.

My fifth paragraph draws on my fourth paragraph.

My sixth paragraph is a little red guy on a wooden soap box shouting out at signs and other SHIFT + Number characters.

[CrystalTears]

Why would they make getting the ID inconvenient? I don't understand that assumption. Is it hard to get one now?

[Gan]

You don't think people would try to litigate it as so inconvenient as to cause an undue burden (relative to the state system)? We are talking about legislature. All in all, I don't know precisely, but I do see that as being a hurdle for it, especially if they charge.

I dont see folks attacking it from that angle. If anything I see it being attacked from the state's rights folks. My argument to that is the same as the basis for having one form of currency in the US. Except instead of making trade and barter between states easier, its more along the lines of national/state/personal security.

[Stanley Burrell]

Er, really quickly: Just a quick, snide "Columbine never happened" remark for anyone trying to be coy by counterarguing my sixteen-year old "tobacco terrorist" with a presumed fake Real ID mention.

AFK a weekend, my b. ES is my interpretter for no-speak-a-the-Stanley, btw.

[ElanthianSiren]

Why would they make getting the ID inconvenient? I don't understand that assumption. Is it hard to get one now?

After having dealt with the slowness of pa.gov for everything from voter cards to driver's liscenses etc, I'm not sure they're capable of processing that volume was my point. Last I read, the conversion of state IDs to federal ones would have been the responsibility of each state. I took that to mean that the responsibility would probably fall on the already overworked DMV, which may be erroneous on my part. If it does, however, I have absolutely no confidence in every citizen in a state (driving or not) just popping down to get an ID by X date; this is a basic problem with implimention.

The tangible inconvenience is the money it might cost. If the ID is mandatory and if you can't meet the cost, what do you do? Say we use it for voting; do we then not allow people who don't have one to vote? It essentially possibly creates a hierarchy of citizens (those without IDs and those with them). Obviously, they may choose not to use it for voting or things that are considered unalienable rights of age x law abiding US citizens, hence my comment on it depends what it's used for.

[CrystalTears]

I have a gut feeling that it won't be "go out and change it the second this is implemented". More along the lines of "when it expires, you'll be getting the new national ID". In the same respect as when the plates change styles and you don't get that new one until your current one expired.

State ID's have changed formats and such several times, and people don't have to run to DMV to get the new one. They get to it when it expires, and even then, with some states, the renewal can be done online and they'll just receive the new one. Perhaps with the national ID they'll have to send in proof, so they'll mail it in and get their new one.

[Sean]

You'd have a pretty big overlap (atleast 4 years in NJ) of people with and without national IDs if you used that format. Which is fine as long as gov't entities like the TSA will allow you to use your regular state DL during that period.

Edit: This is the reason I still don't have a new NJ license despite them coming out in 2003 or there abouts. I turned 21 and got my new license just before they started issuing the new format and my old format license doesn't expire until November. If I went and got a new format license today it'd still expire in November and I'd have to do the process twice then.. no thanks.

[CrystalTears]

If anything, they'll have a year where everyone will have to have their national ID to replace their current state one. Maybe like a 5 year limit or something. I just don't forsee it being an overnight process.

[Gan]

Ok, lets see if I can work through this...


Yeah, alright, so, maybe we'll find a whopping third of an entire terrorist *after* the database is done being false alarm-red-flagged for every single eeeevil entity who tries to not legally drink and/or smoke tobacco products and/or enter d'club.
I see this as a local law enforcement issue, and perhaps even a state issue. Definately not necessary for inclusion on a national database.



Good mo'fucking luck. Hopefully Gitmo doesn't get too packed with eighteen year old threat-to-national-security bootleggers and sixteen year old tobacco terrorists. This isn't going to scare Mahmoud the janitor from using his 7-11's phone after closing hours to scam social security numbers, or any other non-race/religion/ethos/gender-specific douchebag from fishing. They (the people responsible for, and, those who are now oh-so-cleverly reading over this paperwork :rolleyes:) need to fellate their pride up and trash a bunch of GO U.S.A.! doctrine that was meant specifically for PR. And never, ever, ever, ever meant to unfold into the inadvertently catastrophic cost-of-gold trashpiles of Federal and Central Intelligence moth fodder.
My God do you even understand your own writing? Again, I dont see how a federal ID card and national criminal database will be affected by what you mentioned above, simply because your rant has more to do with local enforcement rather than state or federal. Think of the database as the third tier to law enforcement. Information is not distributed to that database until it has been ordered so by the courts, which would include warrants, court mandated offender registration, parole registration, probation registration, and any mandated release such as out on bail or house arrest, as well as any court ordered restraining orders. To be honest, nobody but local enforcement gives a flying fuck about speeding tickets, MIP's, PI's, etc.


We'd have a better surplus and a nice lack of following the wrong trail if politicians knew how to properly use the papershredder.
...whatever


Good God: It takes much less effort (and reaps infinite more effectiveness) to start following SS #'s and penalizing the fuck out of said SS frauders, which I'm sure would be a terrorism loophole that could be fixed instead of this dumbshit can of worms.
Seriously you cant be endorsing SS# enforcement when its just a document with no photo ID. Thats a money sink if I ever saw one. How about making your SS# also your Federal ID# as well. If you have any reason to require your SS# to be provided then you need to have it updated to match a photo and fingerprint down at the local license bureau.


Reasons I can think of requiring updating your ID and or registering to get a new one.

1. Obtaining a license to drive a vehicle.
2. Getting a job and providing proof of identification to an employer.
3. Opening up a bank account.
4. Obtaining a passport.
5. Providing proof of identification in application for credit or purchase of durable goods and services requiring proof of identification (large expenditure items).
6. Obtaining a state vocational license (physician, healthcare worker, attorney, insurance, stock/mortgage/banking officer, etc.
7. Obtaining a local or state peace officer's license.
8. Travel on any domestic or international airline originating from or departing to US soil.
9. Proof of ID for entrance into military service (state or federal).
10. For admittance into age restricted establishments (bars, clubs).
11. For purchase of any goods or services at any age restricted establishments (liquor stores, strip clubs, gun dealers, cigs, alcohol, table dances ;), firearms, etc.)

I'm sure I'm missing some... but you get the idea.

[Sean]

It'd be nice if colleges didn't use SS#'s for identification. Although this trend seems to be changing I believe, or at least at my former school where after I graduated they changed it from SS#'s to an issued student ID #.

[Gan]

Furtheremore I agree with the implementation process dovetailing onto when your current ID/License expires. As you go down to get a new one, you get the new federal template one. Easily done if you ask me.

[ElanthianSiren]

Furtheremore I agree with the implementation process dovetailing onto when your current ID/License expires. As you go down to get a new one, you get the new federal template one. Easily done if you ask me.

Except that quite a few people aren't liscensed drivers and don't have state IDs. -Kids, disabled persons, people without legal residence, and so on. I'd like to see the plan to impliment it realistically; we can't just assume everyone drives and/or has a state ID when you're talking about basic rights. Now, if you're not talking about basic rights, you can make all the assumptions you want, but you really haven't solved anything like voter fraud or airport security.

[CrystalTears]

And you'll get it when you need it. When you need to apply for a federal loan, drive a car, buy a house, open a bank account... whatever you would normally need ID for. If they didn't need it before, why run out and get it before necessary? I'm not following that either.

[DeV]

So are the proponents of a national ID saying that it wouldn't be a mandatory ID? There are a shit load of people in this country that don't own a car, home, bank account, or federal loan. Just saying. But I do wonder again if this is voluntary or mandatory. That makes a huge difference.

[CrystalTears]

After December 31 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_31), 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009), "a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a state to any person unless the state is meeting the requirements" specified in the Real ID Act. States remain free to also issue non-complying licenses and ID's, so long as these have a unique design and a clear statement that they cannot be accepted for any Federal identification purpose. The federal Transportation Security Administration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Security_Administration) is responsible for security check-in at airports, so bearers of non-compliant documents would no longer be able to travel on common carrier aircraft without additional screening[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act#_note-5).

Documentation required before issuing a license or ID card

Before a card can be issued, the applicant must provide the following documentation[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act#_note-6):

A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.
Documentation of birthdate.
Documentation of legal status and Social Security number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number)
Documentation showing name and principal residence address. Digital images of each identity document (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_document) will be stored in each state DMV database.

[Gan]

Except that quite a few people aren't liscensed drivers and don't have state IDs. -Kids, disabled persons, people without legal residence, and so on. I'd like to see the plan to impliment it realistically; we can't just assume everyone drives and/or has a state ID when you're talking about basic rights. Now, if you're not talking about basic rights, you can make all the assumptions you want, but you really haven't solved anything like voter fraud or airport security.

Again, why would you throw kids in the mix? They dont need an ID/License until they A) get a job, B) travel by air, C) get a license to drive a car.

It doesnt matter if you drive or not. If you partake in any activity requiring a valid form of identification, you need an ID. I've seen plenty of state ID's that are not licenses, and they are still required anything requiring a valid government issued photo ID.

Yes, disabled people should get an ID, because they are receiving federal disability which IMO should require proof of identity to pick up the check/have it direct deposited, etc. If they can be mobile enough to pick up the damn check or apply for the benefit, they can be mobile enough to get proper identification necessary to apply and qualify for it.

Without legal residence... :banghead: This is what we're trying to combat!

What does basic rights have to do with obtaining a valid form of identification? We dont live in a go by your word/handshake world anymore. For any major event or transaction in your life, you're going to need a form of identification (even applying for a marriage license).

[Latrinsorm]

Without legal residence... This is what we're trying to combat!Maybe I don't get what you're saying here, but how does getting an ID combat homelessness?

[CrystalTears]

If they're homeless, then they don't have a job either, or a car, or plan on traveling by plane anytime soon.. so not much to worry about there. If they have any of those, well they better panhandle for shoes and walk over to DMV pronto, eh?

[ElanthianSiren]

Again, why would you throw kids in the mix? They dont need an ID/License until they A) get a job, B) travel by air, C) get a license to drive a car.

Because kids at times do travel by air. If the law requires EVERYONE get one by date x, everyone needs to get one. In short, I'm asking if the law is compulsatory, as dev asked, or voluntary (you can't participate in these activities if you don't have real ID x).


It doesnt matter if you drive or not. If you partake in any activity requiring a valid form of identification, you need an ID. I've seen plenty of state ID's that are not licenses, and they are still required anything requiring a valid government issued photo ID.

Yes, disabled people should get an ID, because they are receiving federal disability which IMO should require proof of identity to pick up the check/have it direct deposited, etc. If they can be mobile enough to pick up the damn check or apply for the benefit, they can be mobile enough to get proper identification necessary to apply and qualify for it.

Some disabled people don't get government money, but they can't drive/don't have an ID. Technically, I didn't have a real PA state ID card until I turned 20. I used my SSN on job apps, voter registration etc. Never had a problem getting a job or a voter card.



Without legal residence... :banghead: This is what we're trying to combat!

So you're saying homeless people shouldn't be allowed to vote?



What does basic rights have to do with obtaining a valid form of identification? We dont live in a go by your word/handshake world anymore. For any major event or transaction in your life, you're going to need a form of identification (even applying for a marriage license).

It has to do with what I asked in my original post. Which activities do they plan on requiring this ID for? Voting is a basic right guaranteed to all law abiding US citizens over the age of 18. The law doesn't say "All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 that aren't homeless can vote." Or "All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 that have a real ID can vote." It says All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 can vote, so it's likely they will run into a legal challenge if they place a price tag on the ID (and use it as voter identification to combat voter fraud) because charging money for it constitutes (or could be constrewed as constituting) an undue burden.

If you're not going to use it to combat something like voter fraud, exactly what does it solve?

[Kefka]

They're not doing so well with passports. Not sure how this will be any easier.

[Gan]

Because kids at times do travel by air. If the law requires EVERYONE get one by date x, everyone needs to get one. In short, I'm asking if the law is compulsatory, as dev asked, or voluntary (you can't participate in these activities if you don't have real ID x).
Set a neutral requirement that happens to be used in a majority of the states already regarding their ID's. I would make it compulsatory if you want to engage in any activity requiring an ID. Period.




Some disabled people don't get government money, but they can't drive/don't have an ID. Technically, I didn't have a real PA state ID card until I turned 20. I used my SSN on job apps, voter registration etc. Never had a problem getting a job or a voter card.
Everything you mentioned above needs to have photographic proof of who you are to do what you want to do. Period. (IMO)




So you're saying homeless people shouldn't be allowed to vote?
I understood this as illegal aliens, not homeless people. And LOL at homeless people wanting to vote. In order to apply for a voter registration card here in Texas, you have to have a physical address. Again, as mentioned above, if you want to participate in democracy then you need to verify that you're qualified to participate by having proof of who you are, with a photographic ID.




It has to do with what I asked in my original post. Which activities do they plan on requiring this ID for? Voting is a basic right guaranteed to all law abiding US citizens over the age of 18. The law doesn't say "All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 that aren't homeless can vote." Or "All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 that have a real ID can vote." It says All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 can vote, so it's likely they will run into a legal challenge if they place a price tag on the ID (and use it as voter identification to combat voter fraud) because charging money for it constitutes (or could be constrewed as constituting) an undue burden.
I disagree on the burden part. Show me a person mentioned above who tries to get through the registration process without suffering some sort of burden, then try and say that adding the demonstration of proof of who you say you are is undue. Its not. (IMO)


If you're not going to use it to combat something like voter fraud, exactly what does it solve?
Combatting voter fraud is one of MANY things a federal ID card would combat. (IMO)

[Blazing247]

It has to do with what I asked in my original post. Which activities do they plan on requiring this ID for? Voting is a basic right guaranteed to all law abiding US citizens over the age of 18. The law doesn't say "All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 that aren't homeless can vote." Or "All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 that have a real ID can vote." It says All law abiding citizens over the age of 18 can vote, so it's likely they will run into a legal challenge if they place a price tag on the ID (and use it as voter identification to combat voter fraud) because charging money for it constitutes (or could be constrewed as constituting) an undue burden.


A basic right guaranteed...providing a few stipulations. You can't just walk in and say "I'm Harry Dick, I have no address, no ID, and I want to vote", so your argument doesn't really make sense to me.

[Sean]

You don't need a home in order to vote. As to whether or not you should have to purchase an ID to vote.. eh I'm not totally on board but I'd say in most situations it's not an undue burden. I'd say allowances for those who can't meet the burden should be made but I don't think the state or federal gov'ts should fork over for everyone who can afford to purchase an ID.

Since I was bored I looked into homeless voting. Theres some interesting decisions on it. Apparently in Alaska you can use a park bench within a district as a locale in order to vote.

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/getinvolved/projects/vote2004/cases.html

[Sean]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/16/real.id/index.html

Noticed that these are in the news again today. Nothing really mind blowing or new. I can't help but to think the number of states not willing at this time to comply whether it's about funding or not has to be a pretty big wrench in the machine.

The whole approach though, atleast the way I'm reading it, seems pretty archaic:


But Chertoff told legislators last week that DHS has no intention of creating a federal database, and Walsh, of the Heritage Foundation, said the ACLU's allegations are disingenuous.

States will be permitted to share data only when validating someone's identity, Walsh said.

"The federal government wouldn't have any greater access to driver's license information than it does today," Walsh said.

So rather than some linked database you have to basically get in touch with the issuing state request the information wait on confirmation etc. But I'm also not getting a good feeling about the potential for citizens to be used as hostages in the state vs federal gov't fight for funding. I don't think Joe Schmo should get fucked over because the two can't (at this time) come to some kind of compromise.


"This is not a mandate," Chertoff said. "A state doesn't have to do this, but if the state doesn't have -- at the end of the day, at the end of the deadline -- Real ID-compliant licenses then the state cannot expect that those licenses will be accepted for federal purposes."

[War Angel]

I haven't decided either way yet, if Real IDs are good or bad, but here is a video from some people highly opposed to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PpMdTmVMpo

[Deadelf]

I'm for a single ID/Driver License, I've lived in too many damn states and it gets old having to transfer them and put up with some of the crap you have to do so. All the states have different standards and some don't talk to other states to get info, it's a real clusterfuck.

[Silhouette of Doom]

States rights exist, sry.