Scientology cited for barring Cruise production

[Gan]

BERLIN, Germany (Reuters) -- Germany has barred the makers of a movie about a plot to kill Adolf Hitler from filming at German military sites because its star Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, the Defense Ministry said on Monday.

Cruise, also one of the film's producers, is a member of the Church of Scientology which the German government does not recognize as a church. Berlin says it masquerades as a religion to make money, a charge Scientology leaders reject.

The decision drew a sharp response from Cruise's film producing partner, Paula Wagner, chief executive of United Artists Entertainment, who said Cruise's "personal beliefs have absolutely no bearing on the movie's plot, themes or content."

The U.S. actor will portray Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, leader of the unsuccessful attempt to assassinate the Nazi dictator in July 1944 with a bomb hidden in a briefcase.

Defense Ministry spokesman Harald Kammerbauer said the film makers "will not be allowed to film at German military sites if Count Stauffenberg is played by Tom Cruise, who has publicly professed to being a member of the Scientology cult."

"In general, the Bundeswehr (German military) has a special interest in the serious and authentic portrayal of the events of July 20, 1944 and Stauffenberg's person," Kammerbauer said.

more...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/06/25/cruise.germany.reut/index.html
_______________________________________________

On one hand I think its funny just because its happening to Cruise.

On the other hand, I think its sad that a government is wasting their time with something that really should not be in their purview (even if it is Germany). If the production company pulls out, it will definately be a missed opportunity for some extra income into the government/public coffers.

[Sean of the Thread]

Actually a lot of countries have banned scientology all together.

I will say they are very fucking annoying at the very least and higher up ones are mostly assholes.

Sooooo FUCK em.

[DeV]

I might not agree with the church's ideology, but I hope this kind of blatant religious discrimination does not spread inside our borders. It's bullshit.

I also think Tom Cruise needs to not be the spokesperson for ANY religion or social cause what so ever.

[Tsa`ah]

I might not agree with the church's ideology, but I hope this kind of blatant religious discrimination does not spread inside our borders. It's bullshit.

I also think Tom Cruise needs to not be the spokesperson for ANY religion or social cause what so ever.

Except they (the german government) do not recognize scientology as a religion, rather a money making cult (which is the reality). I get the feeling that they don't want to play host for a few reasons.

1. They don't want it to get a foothold in their borders, thus leading to religious recognition down the road.
2. They don't want to give the impression they support scientology in any fashion by hosting a film starring one of the biggest nut jobs on the planet.

I think most European nations have seen what our stance of religion can lead to, and they want no part of it.

[Gan]

That brings up an interesting notion:

1. Should all religion be unfettered? Should there be limitations on what people practice?

or

2. Should all ORGANIZED religion have limitations on it, or sould it be unfettered?

[Tsa`ah]

Heh ... to be blunt ...

Religious entities need to be taxed since they have shoved their asses right into the political arena ... or we need to keep with the practice of not taxing religious entities and start jailing them whenever they step foot on capitol hill.

There's really no clear cut solution, but fucks like Falwell (SIH), Roberts .. et all, have made fortunes under this particular tax shelter ... and those still living will continue to expand their fortunes. Religion is a multi-billion dollar industry here in the US. Why exactly should religion have any political say when they pretty much plunder the populace tax free?

[DeV]

1. They don't want it to get a foothold in their borders, thus leading to religious recognition down the road.
2. They don't want to give the impression they support scientology in any fashion by hosting a film starring one of the biggest nut jobs on the planet.

You're dead on, though I'm under the impression it's already gotten somewhat of a foothold in the region. This is a battle Scientology has been fighting for quite a few years now, dating back to the early 90s so it's nothing new within the walls of the religion.

I understand them not wanting to give the impression that they support scientology, a lot of people already don't. On the other hand I believe they are doing more harm than good considering the movie itself has nothing at all to do with Scientology and will go forward despite this setback.

[Tsa`ah]

Yet Cruise will be interviewed, even in Germany ... thus giving him another outlet to spew scientology bullshit. I see where you're coming from, but I have to still say go Germany.

[CrystalTears]

Yet Cruise will be interviewed, even in Germany ... thus giving him another outlet to spew scientology bullshit. I see where you're coming from, but I have to still say go Germany.
Yeah I'm inclined to agree with you. If Cruise didn't use his popularity and fame to preach Scientology, it probably wouldn't be much of an issue. Although you kinda have to give them props for saying its the Scientology and not just saying "because Cruise is an asshole and don't want him in our country". :D

[Celephais]

Heh ... to be blunt ...

Religious entities need to be taxed since they have shoved their asses right into the political arena ... or we need to keep with the practice of not taxing religious entities and start jailing them whenever they step foot on capitol hill.

There's really no clear cut solution, but fucks like Falwell (SIH), Roberts .. et all, have made fortunes under this particular tax shelter ... and those still living will continue to expand their fortunes. Religion is a multi-billion dollar industry here in the US. Why exactly should religion have any political say when they pretty much plunder the populace tax free?

QFTW

I fucking hate how religion is tax exempt... it's bullshit, no reason it should be, I don't even think charity should be tax exempt (although I have no problem with donations coming out of your taxable income... but they should still pay a tax on what they recieved).

[DeV]

Bad publicity can still just as easily be considered good publicity in the movie industry.

Grats Germany I guess, but I don't see this doing anything to stop Cruise from blabbing his mouth about how great Scientology is regardless of where he's being interviewed in the world.

I think most religious organizations are full of shit, Scientology included, but discrimination is discrimination and Germany has better things to do than keep tabs on what movie a Scientologist is shooting in their country.
The fact that he's still giving an interview there despite the ban makes it all the more laughable... at Germany, imo.

[Parkbandit]

Except they (the german government) do not recognize scientology as a religion, rather a money making cult (which is the reality).

How is Scientology any different from any other religion then?

[Drew]

I don't like any government determining what is religion and what isn't, that's a very slippery slope right there. It's not a big leap to Christianity is a money-making scheme because it asks believers to tithe.

[Fallen]

I agree with Drew. I am not a fan of any organized religion, but this whole ordeal still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[StrayRogue]

Stupid. Scientology is just as dumb, unrealistic and crazy as any other religion. Sure it's the flavour of the month, but I don't see Cruise running around everywhere damning everyone to hell. Quite the contrary.

[bluesmith]

They're not dumb, they're a serious organized criminal activity. The Scientologist's have intimidated the media and gov't in the US, going so far as to personally threaten IRS agents by following their children.

The only media outlets that will take on Scientology in the US are the New York Times, 60 minutes and one of the LA Weekly papers....pretty much everyone else is moot.

And the Germans are by far the most critical gov't vs. scientology.

They can't shut up everybody with their lawsuits, but just about...they sued the Cult Awareness Network for defamation and then bought them out. If you're concerned about a loved one who's dabbling in it now and call the CAN, they'll tell you it's a legitimate relgion.

Rock on, Germany.

[CrystalTears]

Stupid. Scientology is just as dumb, unrealistic and crazy as any other religion. Sure it's the flavour of the month, but I don't see Cruise running around everywhere damning everyone to hell. Quite the contrary.
Yeah they just tell you that you're a miserable soul and won't ever be happy or fulfilled unless you follow it. AND have to go to their conferences and classes to get enlightened. It's just as fucked up.

[Artha]

How is Scientology any different from any other religion then?
Well, let me frame it vis-a-vis Christianity.

In a regular church, the offering plate comes around, and maybe you put in some money or maybe you don't. The minister preaches, you pray, and that's the end of that.

In Scientology, you pay $20 or $100 or whatever fee for an auditing, which is really just regressive psychology being practiced by an untrained drone, and only once you've spent so much money on audits do you get to move to the next level. You're pressured into buying Hubbard's books, Scientology courses, and other things like that.

The German government is pretty on point when they say Scientology is a cult with the sole aim of raising money.

[Khariz]

Anyone who doesn't know just how fucked up Scientology is needs to visit this website, Operation Clambake:

http://www.xenu.net/

Watch and read as much as you can stand to. You'll be amazed.

Also, if you want to see videos of crazy high-ups in scientology attempting to address people on camera, go to http://www.xenutv.com

It is absolutely unreal.

Edit: In the interest of full disclosure: I donate money to both of these sites and the people that run them to keep the fight against the lunacy, harassment, and family destruction that is Scientology.

[Drew]

The only media outlets that will take on Scientology in the US are the New York Times, 60 minutes and one of the LA Weekly papers....pretty much everyone else is moot.

And south park.

[DeV]

Well, let me frame it vis-a-vis Christianity.

In a regular church, the offering plate comes around, and maybe you put in some money or maybe you don't. The minister preaches, you pray, and that's the end of that.

In Scientology, you pay $20 or $100 or whatever fee for an auditing, which is really just regressive psychology being practiced by an untrained drone, and only once you've spent so much money on audits do you get to move to the next level. You're pressured into buying Hubbard's books, Scientology courses, and other things like that.

The German government is pretty on point when they say Scientology is a cult with the sole aim of raising money.
No worse than the Mormon religion where you are required to pay 10% of your gross income to the church ... also known as "I cannot pay my bills until I've paid my tithing" fees. Just saying.

[Khariz]

No worse than the Mormon religion where you are required to pay 10% of your gross income to the church ... also known as "I cannot pay my bills until I've paid my tithing" fees. Just saying.

Oh yes it is. And not just from a financial standpoint. Read some of the propaganda I just posted. Believing crazy shit is one thing, ruining peoples lives, psychological health, families, and sometimes lives, is a completely different thing.

Whereas I think it is safe to say that the result of Mormonism is mostly good, I would have to say that the result of Scientology is mostly bad (a wave of comepletely brainwashed followers that do nothing but pay money into an organization.)

[Sean]

"And south park."

R.I.P. Chef

[DeV]

Oh yes it is. And not just from a financial standpoint. That's the only standpoint I was coming from, but I don't doubt the validity of your other issues with Scientology.

The very public war they have waged against the Psychological community as a whole is just one of many reasons I believe that its followers are just as warped as the religious ideologies they've chosen to follow.

[Khariz]

That's the only standpoint I was coming from, but I don't doubt the validity of your other issues with Scientology.

The very public war they have waged against the Psychological community as a whole is just one of many reasons I believe that its followers are just as warped as the religious ideologies they've chosen to follow.

Yeah. The sickest part of it to me, is that L. Ron Hubbard really did create the most fascinating method of brainwashing ever developed by anyone, ever.

These people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to become more and more brainwashed, and lose more and more of their ability to think for themselves. The problem is, while they are going through it, it feels extremely liberating to them. All of the world's worries recede. They gain clarity of mind and purpose (which is singlehandely focused on attaining the next level of scientology, getting enough money {or serving the organization enough} to get to the next level, or on perfecting themselves in the level that they are on).

It amazes me to know that one can essentially learn to self-brainwash. Most religions involve an extreme amount of group contact, being accepted into a group, being with a group of like minded individuals, etc. Scientology uses the group image to get you hooked, and then teaches you how to eventually do all of you processess without anyone else around. Quite ingenious! Self-help religions that I have to take out a new mortgage to pay for OT6 for! Score!

Alot of what I'm saying here is being dumbed down for this thread. I could go on about this shit for hours on end.

[CrystalTears]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/uninterested.jpg

(sorry the lolcat code thread just got me all inspired)

[Artha]

No worse than the Mormon religion where you are required to pay 10% of your gross income to the church ... also known as "I cannot pay my bills until I've paid my tithing" fees. Just saying.
No, the Church of Scientology has been known to pressure people into mortgaging their houses to pay for the next level of enlightenment. That's a pretty far cry from even 10% of your gross income.

[Gan]

... and she's buyyyyying the stairrrrrway... to hea'ven.

[DeV]

No, the Church of Scientology has been known to pressure people into mortgaging their houses to pay for the next level of enlightenment. That's a pretty far cry from even 10% of your gross income.
The difference in methods doesn't change the level of aggressiveness both organizations are known to use when it comes to picking the pocketbooks of their members.

I can't think of any other religion that shakes down members for contributions the way the Mormons do. Oh wait, I guess I do now. I still think Mormons take the cake with their "tithing settlements" and what not. They require that members attend a meeting with the bishop at the end of the year and if you have not paid your tithes for any reason you'll be lectured to comply.

Not only that, it's the fact that religion, for the most part, started out as a bunch of people that everyone else laughed at and persecuted. See Christianity. Trust that I use the term religion as loosely as possible when referring to Scientology.

I mean, compared to virgin birth, holy trinity, angels, demons, moving mountains, parting seas, purgatory, hell, limbo, hail marys, popes who wear prada, walking on water, raising from the dead, healing lepers with a touch, keeping women covered from head to toe, murdering everyone who doesn't believe, burning bushes, self-fladulation, creative uses for alter boys, miraculous stone tablets, flooding the earth, Noah's Arc and co., creation, eating evil apples, talking to evil snakes, and so on... yep, Scientologists are pretty much in a class of their own.

I have a problem with some, most, all religions if you haven't noticed. Scientology is the ultimate pay as you go religion, but it's definitely not the first and it won't be the last.

[Artha]

The difference in methods doesn't change the level of aggressiveness both organizations are known to use when it comes to picking the pocketbooks of their members.
Except if you try to leave the CoS, they'll sue and harass you into oblivion. It's called the "Fair Game Doctrine."

[Gan]

I mean, compared to virgin birth, holy trinity, angels, demons, moving mountains, parting seas, purgatory, hell, limbo, hail marys, popes who wear prada, walking on water, raising from the dead, healing lepers with a touch, keeping women covered from head to toe, murdering everyone who doesn't believe, burning bushes, self-fladulation, creative uses for alter boys, miraculous stone tablets, flooding the earth, Noah's Arc and co., creation, eating evil apples, talking to evil snakes, and so on... yep, Scientologists are pretty much in a class of their own.

You forgot speaking in tongues and praying to people to pray to people to pray to people to pray in your behalf to God. And OMG where do the Jehova's witness people fit in!!!!! NO I DONT WANT YOUR DAMNED LIGHTHOUSE MAGAZINE, QUIT KNOCKING ON MY FUCKING DOOR AT 9AM ON SATURDAY MORNINGS!!!

[Khariz]

The difference in methods doesn't change the level of aggressiveness both organizations are known to use when it comes to picking the pocketbooks of their members.

I can't think of any other religion that shakes down members for contributions the way the Mormons do. Oh wait, I guess I do now. I still think Mormons take the cake with their "tithing settlements" and what not. They require that members attend a meeting with the bishop at the end of the year and if you have not paid your tithes for any reason you'll be lectured to comply.

Not only that, it's the fact that religion, for the most part, started out as a bunch of people that everyone else laughed at and persecuted. See Christianity. Trust that I use the term religion as loosely as possible when referring to Scientology.

I mean, compared to virgin birth, holy trinity, angels, demons, moving mountains, parting seas, purgatory, hell, limbo, hail marys, popes who wear prada, walking on water, raising from the dead, healing lepers with a touch, keeping women covered from head to toe, murdering everyone who doesn't believe, burning bushes, self-fladulation, creative uses for alter boys, miraculous stone tablets, flooding the earth, Noah's Arc and co., creation, eating evil apples, talking to evil snakes, and so on... yep, Scientologists are pretty much in a class of their own.

I have a problem with some, most, all religions if you haven't noticed. Scientology is the ultimate pay as you go religion, but it's definitely not the first and it won't be the last.

No offense, but you are bordering on just straight up having no clue what you are talking about.

Mormons and some other Christian sects have "mandatory" 10% tithes (I'm not going to get into whether Mormons are christian). That's about as harsh as you can find a christian organization requesting someone to pay. If you don't or can't pay the tithe, they don't kick you out of the church. They don't prevent you from coming to services. They will either help the people figure out how they can afford it, or deal with the reason why they can't.

Scientology is in a class of it's own. That's a class of one. You CANNOT be associated with them unless you pay what you owe, or give yourself into the voluntary service. If you commit to paying 100k for the next Operating Thetan level, and then don't or can't come up with the money, they will Sue you, or worse. Check out my links for the Worse part. As far as they are concerned you are legally contractually bound to pay what is agreed for each level.

And that leads me to another thing that is different. There is no disparity between what is expected of any one mormon from another. 10% of your income. Scientology's prices are almost whimsical in nature, being tailored to individuals based upon how much money they could likely come up with. IF you could take a new mortgage out on your house and come up with 100k, then thats what that next upper level course will cost. If you are Tom Cruise and can afford 10 mil, than that's what it will cost.

LIke I said before, I'm not trying to compare belief structures. I certainly have no problem with you or anyone else thinking that believing in Jesus, Demons, and Angels is just as odd as believing in the Galactic Overlord Xenu.

But to think that the LDS Church and the Church of Scientology can even be compared in a apples to apples way is just plain silly. If you honestly don't understand why, you owe it to yourself and the poor people fucked by scientology to find out. I've provided the means in this thread.

[Artha]

I think that pretty much covers it.

[DeV]

No offense, but you are bordering on just straight up having no clue what you are talking about.
The Mormon faith is about the only other religion I can think of that comes anywhere close to Scientology in regards to mandatory tithing. I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about in that respect.

I didn't claim to be an expert on Scientology last I checked.

I also didn't click your links because I honestly do not care about their distorted belief structure, or former disgruntled members who joined an organization they had not one clue about in the first place. I did however choose to comment on an aspect of Scientology that the Mormons once held the crown to.

As an aside I have no sympathy for the dumbasses fucked over by Scientology.

[DeV]

You forgot speaking in tongues and praying to people to pray to people to pray to people to pray in your behalf to God. And OMG where do the Jehova's witness people fit in!!!!! NO I DONT WANT YOUR DAMNED LIGHTHOUSE MAGAZINE, QUIT KNOCKING ON MY FUCKING DOOR AT 9AM ON SATURDAY MORNINGS!!!OMG there are totally different levels of religious craziness which you choose to just ignore. For shame.

[Artha]

OMG there are totally different levels of religious craziness which you choose to just ignore. For shame.
Yeah, one kind destroys your ability to reason and connect with people while bilking you of every cent. The other kind's just silly.

[Khariz]

Yeah, one kind destroys your ability to reason and connect with people while bilking you of every cent. The other kind's just silly.

Exactly, these people aren't "dumbasses". Again, DeV when you want to get a clue, feel free.

It is a very complex system of slow brainwashing that occurs over many years. It's not something that these people fall for over night. One doesn't have to be gullible, nieve, or any other thing that would make one a "dumbass" in order to get caught in Scientology's rather amazing web.

And yet again, mandatory tithing and paying for a workbook for your next procedural level are not analagous. I also personally know Mormons who haven't tithed in years, and are still members of the Church. Do they get bitched at, yeah, but are they punished? Not so much.

Mandatory for Mormons = sorta mandatory. Mandatory for Scientologists = GTFO or we won't give you your next brain fix and you will become clinically depressed from all the brainwashing your've gone through and won't be able to function in life until you find some way, no matter what to pay, stay a member and move on.

Edit: Oh, and this is hardly worth arguing about. I'm just bored.

Apple-----Orange.

[CrystalTears]

I remember one night before clubbing, my friends and I went to a Scientology... whatever the hell they're called... just for shits and giggles. They separated us and had us take this long ass exam. After that they evaluate it, sit you down and tell you what you need to do to improve your life, which starts with attending a seminar "that happens to start tomorrow" and will cost hundreds of dollars. We were all "diagnosed" as being clinically depressed and will be unable to live happy lives unless we attend their courses and buy their books. We laughed all the way to the club and drank/danced our depression away. Good times.

[Danical]

Did they actually say "clinically depressed?"

That doesn't seem to go over well given their dislike for the psychology field in general, as I understand it.

[CrystalTears]

They didn't say those exact words no, but they may as well have seeing as how our lives were doomed to failure and will never be happy unless we buy a book. I was drunk, for Pete's sake. They were making me laugh too much with their bullshit. :D

[TheEschaton]

I've never paid my 10% tithe as a Catholic. As far as I know, it was the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation) which made me a Catholic.

-TheE-

[Gan]

I've never paid my 10% tithe as a Catholic. As far as I know, it was the sacraments of initiation (Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation) which made me a Catholic.

-TheE-

Thats OK because you can always absolve yourself in confession right? I mean, thats your get out of jail free card isnt it?

[TheEschaton]

You gotta do the time, if you pay the crime, man - can't forget the Penance.

And the Penance is more than just the 10 Hail Mary's, it's the true sorrow for sinning bit. I'd say most people don't come out of Reconciliation truly reconciled, but then again, I don't believe in the absolutist powers of priests in Catholicism like some people do.

-TheE-

[Khariz]

You gotta do the time, if you pay the crime, man - can't forget the Penance.

And the Penance is more than just the 10 Hail Mary's, it's the true sorrow for sinning bit. I'd say most people don't come out of Reconciliation truly reconciled, but then again, I don't believe in the absolutist powers of priests in Catholicism like some people do.

-TheE-

If you want to get technical, penance was replaced with the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Most priests help you figure out how to fix the underlying cause of the sin instead of making you do penance these days.

[DeV]

Edit: Oh, and this is hardly worth arguing about. Exactly.


I'm just bored
I'm not convinced they aren't dumbasses. Sorry.

[Alfster]

How many hail mary's would a priest who touches little boys have to say?

[Stanley Burrell]

Jedi > Scientology

[Khariz]

I'm not convinced they aren't dumbasses. Sorry.

Well okay, certainly some of them are. Some people are more weak-minded, and weak-willed than others. I sit here and study scientology, and say to myself "How the fuck could anyone believe this shit"? But then again, I didn't just go through years of non-stop chipping away at my phychological and reasonablness barriers.

I wish there was a way I could explain it that wouldn't take much time or much space.

They have a complex system of excercises that you "run" like a computer process, that are supposed to help you communicate with others, become more forceful, be able to be confrontational when you need to, be able to be unemotional if you need to, etc. People learn these techniques (which were a pop culture fad for a while through the book "Dianetics") because they are into the self-help thing, and want to learn to be better people.

The thing is though, is that what really happens as you complete all of these basic processes, you are very slowly, and incrementally brainwashed into thinking that L. Ron Hubbard's methodologies are genius, and that he is the only one who has truly ever unlocked the human potential. More and more and more of the little tidbits of how this works, and why this is, are leaked out to you over hundreds of thousands of dollars and many many years.

It finally culminates with the silly stuff after your brain has been stripped of any ability to resist the story. While it sounds wierd to you and I that some Galactic Overload named Xenu gathered everyone up, blew them up in volcanos with hydrogren bombs, and then collected the souls in clusters (souls are really called Thetans), and that we have to get rid of our body Thetans through a complex method of auditing, it sounds perfectly reasonable to someone who has gradually been brainwashed over 10 years in anticipation of the moment the would be ready to hear this story and believe.

Even the concept of auditing is first introduced as a psychological determination tool. Hold these two tin cans, and this basic electrometer will detect emotional responses when you are asked questions. Seems reasonable enough to most people who are familiar with Polygraphs. They slowly walk to you from seeing reactions with a tool, to going back into your memory to the first time you felt the emotion they pegged, and trying to attack the cause at the root. Then eventually when you are a Scientology big dog and believe in all this Thetan nonsense, you "realize" that the reason this going back to the root cause thing works is because you are essentially isolating the Body Thetan that is the root cause of your negative emotion or physical pain, and auditing it out of your body, freeing it from you, and you from it.

Like I said, sounds unreasonable to you and me, but I hope you can understand how, at least in theory, over a long period of time, you could gradually be set up for this to be the pinnacle of everything you had learned.

[CrystalTears]

Did you get suckered into their schemes or something? What's with all the angst?

[Khariz]

Did you get suckered into their schemes or something? What's with all the angst?

Where's the angst? That was merely explanatory. I'm honestly trying to get DeV to understand how non-stupid people get suckered into them.

And no, they didn't sucker me, but I can intellectually understand how it occurs.

[Artha]

Did you get suckered into their schemes or something? What's with all the angst?
This is dumb like PB claiming I was fired from Walmart because I don't like the company. You don't have to have been personally fucked to dislike something.

[Sean]

Like I said, sounds unreasonable to you and me, but I hope you can understand how, at least in theory, over a long period of time, you could gradually be set up for this to be the pinnacle of everything you had learned.

This might have been true when information was more contained. But with the advent of mass media and the internet I don't think this is really true anymore. How many intelligent individuals do you know that haven't heard of Scientology and don't know what it's all about?

[CrystalTears]

This is dumb like PB claiming I was fired from Walmart because I don't like the company. You don't have to have been personally fucked to dislike something.
Only because I usually find it hard to believe that someone would be so angry, so determined to see something fail, when they had no personal involvement to begin with. And I didn't immediately assume he had been, I asked.

[Khariz]

This might have been true when information was more contained. But with the advent of mass media and the internet I don't think this is really true anymore. How many intelligent individuals do you know that haven't heard of Scientology and don't know what it's all about?

That's a good point. I'm GLAD that's the case. I've been working hard to make that the case.

[Sean of the Thread]

Basically you slave to them and in order to reach the next level you have to pay for the "courses", training and exercises...

They strong arm anyone that vocally opposes them locally. Private eyes follow you around etc call your work and shit like that.

I've got to get back to work but I've seen tons of shit that I can share later. Bunch of stellar douchebags.

[Celephais]

Only because I usually find it hard to believe that someone would be so angry, so determined to see something fail, when they had no personal involvement to begin with. And I didn't immediately assume he had been, I asked.

You're right, I wasn't personally involved in any of the nazi doings, I should have no reason to want to see them fail...

I think it's called "humanity" when you want an organization that does everything they can to be predatory, abusive assholes to fail.

[Latrinsorm]

But with the advent of mass media and the internet I don't think this is really true anymore.I would say someone believing everything they hear on mass media is at much greater risk to persuasion, wouldn't you?
Only because I usually find it hard to believe that someone would be so angry, so determined to see something fail, when they had no personal involvement to begin with.Have you no sympathy? :(

[CrystalTears]

My bad then, I guess I don't see Scientologists so evil as to compare to the Nazi, so I concede.

[Khariz]

I would say someone believing everything they hear on mass media is at much greater risk to persuasion, wouldn't you?

Certainly, but if they hear that Scientology is looney, and then do about 15 mins of independent research, they will learn that the media was right.

[CrystalTears]

Even in this day and age of the internet and convenient information, people still do not utilitize it enough for research.

People still buy products that are complained about, people still go to restaurants with bad ratings, and people will continue to join groups because they are easily persuaded.

[Khariz]

Even in this day and age of the internet and convenient information, people still do not utilitize it enough for research.

People still buy products that are complained about, people still go to restaurants with bad ratings, and people will continue to join groups because they are easily persuaded.

I can't argue with any of that. It's a shame, but it's true.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Latrinsorm
I would say someone believing everything they hear on mass media is at much greater risk to persuasion, wouldn't you?

Not really. The PC is a pretty good example of why I don't think it's such a great risk. You have to actively try to get 1 sided information because the media tries so hard to be spectacular and is constantly at odds with itself. It's a point/counter point culture. If you're only getting 1 side of the story then you aren't one of the intelligent people I was referring to in my previous post.

[Celephais]

My bad then, I guess I don't see Scientologists so evil as to compare to the Nazi, so I concede.

Exageration to illustrate a point (besides, it's the internet, you need to resort to a nazi comment eventually), you don't need to be involved with something to vehemently oppose it. I think any one of the Tsin threads should have taught you that.

[DeV]

Where's the angst? That was merely explanatory. I'm honestly trying to get DeV to understand how non-stupid people get suckered into them.And I'm trying to get you to understand that I honestly do not care to argue the ideologies or methodologies of this organization and how they recruit and brainwash their members. That was hardly the basis of my initial post in this thread.

If the comparison of financial expectations is apples and oranges to you then we have nothing more to discuss since all the filler you've added is not anything I care to debate.

[Khariz]

And I'm trying to get you to understand that I honestly do not care to argue the ideologies or methodologies of this organization and how they recruit and brainwash their members. That was hardly the basis of my initial post in this thread.

If the comparison of financial expectations is apples and oranges to you then we have nothing more to discuss since all the filler you've added is not anything I care to debate.

It's not apples and oranges to me, it's apples and oranges, period.

The only way you can even begin to make a valid comparison is by pointing out that 10% of an income of 1mil per year is more than 10% of an income of 50k. In that respect, people in both organizations pay more if they make more.

But what is fundamentally different is that the LDS Church will not make its members take another mortgage out on their house to afford the tithe. The LDS Church won't sue their members in court for back-tithe.

The methodology is important to understanding how the CoS gets its members to pay the outrageous sums. It's not tithe, which is true primarily because it isn't a church.

Also, before I mentioned the arbitrary nature of the payments for CoS members, and the way they are individually tailored. At least christians who tithe understand why (tithe meaning tenth).


Genesis 14:20: "And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand." Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything."

Genesis 28:22: "and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.""

Hebrews 7:2: "and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace.""

Hebrews 7:4: "Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!"

Deuteronomy 14:28: "At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns,"

2 Chronicles 31:5: "As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything."

Luke 18:12: "I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'"

Now again, I'm not trying to justify Christian beliefs, but people are not giving 10% because the LDS Church is asking them to, they are doing it because they think that's what God asks of them. Does the LDS Church reinforce (i.e. remind its members of) the scripture (of which I included only about 1/10th of the tithing related references)? Yes. But that's not arbitrary, badgering, brow-beating, or any of the other tactics the CoS employs.

[Latrinsorm]

My bad then, I guess I don't see Scientologists so evil as to compare to the Nazi, so I concede.Evil in general doesn't make you angry or determined to resist it? If not angry, at least mildly piqued?

[CrystalTears]

Evil in general doesn't make you angry or determined to resist it? If not angry, at least mildly piqued?
To me there's a difference between being annoyed by an entity and/or person, and to be so frothing at the mouth that any mention makes you go a little ballistic.

Angry to the point of donating to websites who dedicate to exposing them? Vehemently talking about it even when people say that's not what they were interested in debating? No, sorry.

I'm not saying that someone having strong feelings about something had to be personally involved with it. It was just the way he was going on about it that made me ask, that's all.

I will say that the only thing that truly outraged me where I went out of my way to fight was Imminent Domain. However still with that it was affecting me because it was affecting my home town and could have ultimately affected me personally.

I didn't mean to spur this up in this way, I was just curious if he was involved in any way because he seems to know a great deal about them.

And no, not even the Tsin threads caused me to hate him to the point of trying to ruin his business. I may not like him or his practices, but if he's able to sell, it's because people don't know enough about him or research enough to care. Which brings us back to the point of much like Scientology, people get offered something intriguing and go with it without thinking, and no amount of available information will convince them otherwise until they are crossed.

[Khariz]

All I gotta say about that is, if you ever help fund anti-whatever propoganda sites, I'd hope you know a lot about whatever too!

I remember what really made me snap and want to take an active role against Scientology. I read this book of a woman telling her whole story over more than 15 years with the group, and then spent 48 hours watching ALL of the videos at xenutv.com. (The vids are pickets and conversations with actual really high up scientologists. Quite telling).

That'll get anyone fired up about scientology. Those are some crazy ass fuckers.

[Celephais]

Oh noez@! You've been burainwashed into anti-sighentology!

[CrystalTears]

Cults/religions that cause you to have to spend money you don't have and go to retreats and conventions that take you away from your home are evil.

My aunt was involved in one many years ago when she was dissatisfied with her life and felt that they were the only hope she had of being happy. She became a very different, distant, isolated person. All she ever wanted to do was be with them, sell her stuff, give them money. She was left with almost nothing.

My family had to basically kidnap her and keep her in a room for a few days while she snapped out of it. It was very traumatizing to see my favorite aunt give into people like that, especially when she had us for support and was afraid to come to us for guidance but easily swayed by strangers. It's very bizarre.

[Skeeter]

I love how if a set of beliefs are different from the christian ideals they're automatically evil. Judge not or some such...

2000 years ago people thought christianity was a fringe cult and evil. Funny how organized religion works.

[Sean]

Was Tom Cruise trapped in the closet ... of said room?

[DeV]

It's not apples and oranges to me, it's apples and oranges, period.I disagree, obviously.


The only way you can even begin to make a valid comparison is by pointing out that 10% of an income of 1mil per year is more than 10% of an income of 50k. In that respect, people in both organizations pay more if they make more.Right. Or I can just leave it at this, "It's not apples and oranges to me, it's apples and oranges, period."



Now again, I'm not trying to justify Christian beliefs, but people are not giving 10% because the LDS Church is asking them to, they are doing it because they think that's what God asks of them. Does the LDS Church reinforce (i.e. remind its members of) the scripture (of which I included only about 1/10th of the tithing related references)? Yes. But that's not arbitrary, badgering, brow-beating, or any of the other tactics the CoS employs.If your knowledge of the LDS Church was as well defined as your knowledge of Scientology you'd know that the general rule of thumb regarding tithing is that 10% of everything earned should be paid before being granted a temple recommendation. This goes for all family members, even those who receive allowances. Granted, this means little to you as there is no comparison, in your opinion, period. Just thought I'd clarify that one point.

In any case, we'd be better off agreeing to disagree because I can tell you right now that you aren't going to succeed at convincing me and I'm not going to even try to convince you otherwise.

[Khariz]

DeV, there is nothing to convince you of.

Payments to the Church of Scientology for dianetics lessons are not a tithe.

That's really about it. They are a fee for the lesson.

Edit: Oh, and I was talking about the reasoning behind WHY the LDS Church assesses the 10%, which I'm clearly not wrong about. I'm saying that Christians are biblically obligated to pay 10% anyway, so who cares if the LDS Church wants them to.

[CrystalTears]

I love how if a set of beliefs are different from the christian ideals they're automatically evil. Judge not or some such...
If those set of beliefs and ideals causes destruction and harm to someone, then yeah, I consider it evil, and it doesn't have anything to do with Christian beliefs or morality.

[Khariz]

Let's try this apples to oranges thing one more time:

You make 50k in the LDS Church, you pay 5k.

You make 50k in the CoS, they charge the random pulled-out-of-their-ass amound of 175k for the OT3 lesson, making you take out a third mortgage, and 15 personal loans to pay for it.

So comparable.

[CrystalTears]

I believe the point is that both require you to pay money before being acknowledged as part of the religion, and regardless of the amount, it's irrational.

[Sean]

You're the only person who's addressed scale Khariz.

[Khariz]

I believe the point is that both require you to pay money before being acknowledged as part of the religion, and regardless of the amount, it's irrational.

I'm not going to attempt to breach the subject of Biblical Irrationality. If you are a Christian, and you believe the Bible is the Truth, you likely believe in giving some of your money back to God, considering the Bible talks about it all over the place.

I also don't see how paying for psychological lessons that you feel is helping you is irrational either. Granted CoS members tend to be brainwashed and lack the ability to think rationally anyway.

:club:

[Khariz]

You're the only person who's addressed scale Khariz.

*Motivation for paying
*Purpose of paying
*Reason organization is requesting payment
*Scale of required payment

etc, etc, etc.

Are all reasons why its not apples to apples. That's all I'm saying. I'm saying they are not directly comperable.

Fees assessed by the Church of Scientology, which is not a Church, except for the fact that the word church is in the title, is not a Tithe.

[DeV]

I believe the point is that both require you to pay money before being acknowledged as part of the religion, and regardless of the amount, it's irrational.Precisely. That's basically the only reason I brought it up in the first place. Where were you when I needed you one page back!? :tumble:

[Sean]

I suppose it depends on how you look at it I suppose. Do members of LDS not join to better themselves like members of the CoS? Do they not pay in the end both pay to enhance their chances of bettering themselves and others through their organization? Whats the difference between the bible telling you to tithe and Hubbard?

I'm just saying their choices look irrational to you because you've concluded they aren't rational individuals to begin with. But I'm sure if you ask a CoS member how they feel about what they give they wont be nearly as negative as you.

[Khariz]

Precisely. That's basically the only reason I brought it up in the first place. Where were you when I needed you one page back!? :tumble:

Okay. In that case, I'm perfectly fine with the following statement:

"Paying money to a religious organization or an organization that masquerades as a religion is irrational".

There a debatable point there where people are free to agree or disagree.

:thanx:

[mgoddess]

I fucking hate how religion is tax exempt... it's bullshit, no reason it should be, I don't even think charity should be tax exempt (although I have no problem with donations coming out of your taxable income... but they should still pay a tax on what they recieved).

I'm not going to touch the CoS, Christianity, or any other religious threads in this thread...

I just wanted to say that some (not a lot, but some) religions are so small that if their tax-exempt status were to poof, they'd poof with it.

[Khariz]

Whats the difference between the bible telling you to tithe and Hubbard?



If Hubbard had said "Every member of this organization will pay a 10% income tithe each year", then nothing.

Instead, we have Hubbard dead, and an organization off it's rocker charging whoever whatever the hell they want.

My point above is that the Bible sets the boundries of "acceptable" tithing levels. Hubbard did not.

[Sean]

What's acceptable to you and what's acceptable to members of the CoS are apparently different. If they weren't willing to pay they wouldn't join. The only catch here is that you (and others) have come to the conclusion that they were "brainwashed" into joining so it's become unacceptable to you.

Me? I'm not a supporter of the CoS, well or any organized religion, but while I may as an individual question their sanity for doing what they do I also don't begrudge them their right to do it.

PS: OPUS DEI BITCHES!

[Skeeter]

:blndwhip:

[Khariz]

The only catch here is that you (and others) have come to the conclusion that they were "brainwashed" into joining so it's become unacceptable to you.


Actually, no I don't think they were brainwashed into *joining*. That part happens of one's own accord.

The actual systemic lessons are pretty much irrefutably brainwashing, though. It's a very complex psychological path the inverse of which can be used by a psychotherapist to de-program these people.

By the time you get to the lessons that involve the brainwashing though, you are so far down the "Hey this cool, and really helping me out" road, that there's no turning back unless someone saves you (like the kidnapping described above).

[Sean]

If Tom Cruise was a member of Opus Dei would they let him make his movie? They have their own cult awareness groups too...

[Khariz]

If Tom Cruise was a member of Opus Dei would they let him make his movie? They have their own cult awareness groups too...

I dunno, but he probably wouldn't be shoving the fact that he was a OD member down people's throats if he was.

I have a copy of The Way sitting on my desk, btw. :yes:

[Skeeter]

I do believe your grip on reality may be in question at this point.

[Khariz]

I do believe your grip on reality may be in question at this point.

If so, it is surely due to my law school brainwashing, and not from reading Josemaría Escrivá.

[Celephais]

I'm not going to touch the CoS, Christianity, or any other religious threads in this thread...

I just wanted to say that some (not a lot, but some) religions are so small that if their tax-exempt status were to poof, they'd poof with it.

What's wrong with that? If their faithful can't financially support their own religion, why should those not in the religion financially support it?

[mgoddess]

I just wanted to say that some (not a lot, but some) religions are so small that if their tax-exempt status were to poof, they'd poof with it.
What's wrong with that? If their faithful can't financially support their own religion, why should those not in the religion financially support it?

In one case (the church I'm a member of), no one outside the church *is* supporting it. The church is being supported financially by probably 10-15 people out of the 400 people we have. Most of our people are college students and/or people who are just barely scratching by and not able to support/donate to the church.

Tax-exempt doesn't mean people outside the church support it... it means that the church is a non-profit organization. It means it's supported by it's own members and nothing else. Heck, my church is in debt up to it's ears because we bought a 100-year old building two years ago and it's falling to pieces. My church's leader has had to starve herself and go without a heater in Illinois winter(s) just to keep the church "running."

Yes, I realize a LOT of churches out there don't seem like non-profit org's, with their "tithing" or "give us all your money or else" ethics. I'm just saying not ALL churches are like that... some churches would disappear if the blanket tax-exempt were to be removed.

[Celephais]

Uhh... people outside the church are supporting it if they aren't paying taxes, be it due to the church not paying taxes and others having to make up for those shortfalls, or other services the church takes advantage of that are paid for by taxes (if someone breaks into the church, I bet the same police will respond that I pay taxes towards).

I don't think non-profits should be exempt either, lets say if all tax-exempt statuses were revoked from organizations it would make up 10% of all taxes. They could then lower taxes for everyone else and if everyone wanted they could take that extra money and give it to the church, all square... just this way they're forcing me to give my portion to the church, which I disagree with. The government should not fund any religious affiliation.

[mgoddess]

The government should not fund any religious affiliation.

I'll agree with you on this.

I wouldn't put it past our government, however, to keep charging us the exuberant amount of taxes we already pay, even if the tax-exempt status of any religious affiliation or other non-profit organizations went poof. They (the government) couldn't live with lowering the taxes... they depend too much on it to fund the war(s) and their stupid salaries..

Ugh, no wonder I try to skip over this folder. I'm horrible at discussing politics...

[Artha]

They could then lower taxes for everyone else
rofl, in what world would this actually happen?

[Sean of the Thread]

I can't believe so many people are so clueless about CoS.

[Khariz]

I can't believe so many people are so clueless about CoS.

:)

[Celephais]

rofl, in what world would this actually happen?

I said could, I know they wouldn't, but to be honest, I'd rather the government spend the extra money however the way they've been spending it than having some religion spend the money. My point was that if we wanted a "Square one" situation, we could tax the exempt and reduce other taxes.

All I'm saying is that there is no reasonable ground that a religious organization should be tax exempt. "They are doing good works" well that's what the government is supposed to be doing too. I just think it's ridiculous that I often see churches on probably what would be the best land for commercial use in towns, and those churches aren't paying taxes that a business that would flourish there would.

[Sean]

Down with church bells!

[Jazuela]

I've only read the first page of this thread so sorry if I repeat what someone else has already said.

The "Church" of Scientology was founded by L. Ron Hubbard, who was a sci-fi/fantasy novelist. He came to the conclusion one day that "If you want to get rich, start a religion."* And so he did. *Paraphrased, I don't remember the exact quote.

The church is based loosely on his research in psychology and various other topics while studying to write his novels, and has little/no bearing on any actual religious beliefs, save what were made up as he went along.

The primary purpose of this so-called religion is to make money. It's a pyramid scheme, using psychology and pseudo-religion as the "product."

THey have a "church" in New Haven, which as far as I can tell doesn't do much business. There was one in Boston and I lived a block away from it, and they used to send guys out with clipboards nagging people to take their personality test.

I actually took one once, just to get them off my back. After taking the hour-long test, they put me and a few other people in a room, locked the door behind us, and showed us a movie about L. Ron Hubbard's life. Finally they let us out, put us all in individual cubbies, and each of us had a "counselor" or some such tell us the results.

A few of us, after all of this, got together once we got out of the building and it turned out (surprise surprise) that every single one of us was considred "severely depressed and in desperate need" of Scientology. For a mere $200 we could get a session to improve our lives, and we'd only need 6 sessions that year. After that the price would be reduced, with the help (of course) of video and audio aides (for a modest fee of $30 each) and some books (hardcover only, of course, for $30 each).

If we did well enough in improving, we could rise a level in enlightenment and start helping others - for a fee, within the confines of the "Church" building.

It's nothing more than a pyramid scam. It should be outlawed here in the States just like all other pyramids are outlawed, as far as I'm concerned.

[Jazuela]

The Mormon faith is about the only other religion I can think of that comes anywhere close to Scientology in regards to mandatory tithing. I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about in that respect.

I didn't claim to be an expert on Scientology last I checked.

I also didn't click your links because I honestly do not care about their distorted belief structure, or former disgruntled members who joined an organization they had not one clue about in the first place. I did however choose to comment on an aspect of Scientology that the Mormons once held the crown to.

As an aside I have no sympathy for the dumbasses fucked over by Scientology.

Actually that isn't true. You are allowed to call yourself a Mormon, and not pay a dime. You are only required to pay, if you wish to be an actual member of the church itself.

If you want to call yourself a Scientologist, you'd better be prepared to back it up with proof that you're a dues-paying member, or the Scientologists will sue you. In order to "be" a Scientologist, your are required to be a paying member of their "Church."

If you want to belong to a Synagogue, you have to pay a roof fee and membership dues. But if you don't want to be a member, and simply want to come to regular Friday Night services, you don't have to pay a thing. You can also still "be" a Jew and not belong to any synagogue at all.

[Latrinsorm]

I love how if a set of beliefs are different from the christian ideals they're automatically evil. Judge not or some such...

2000 years ago people thought christianity was a fringe cult and evil. Funny how organized religion works.Plenty of people said Christians were a fringe cult. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone saying Christians were "evil" 2000 years ago (besides other Christians, of course).

Your first paragraph is also a little surprising, as Khariz has gone out of his way to say he's not talking comparatively about the belief system but the enforcement involved. The best you might be able to come up with is a citation from Paul demanding such and such a peculiar thing, but I don't think you could get anywhere close to saying Paul represented all of Christianity.
All I'm saying is that there is no reasonable ground that a religious organization should be tax exempt. I think the active ingredient is that they're not run for profit, not that they do "good works". I'm still a little puzzled as to why you think non-profits in general need to have their tax-exempt status revoked.

[DeV]

You are allowed to call yourself a Mormon, and not pay a dime.Then this has nothing at all to do with what we were discussing. Why would I not be referring to actual devoted members?

[Celephais]

I'm still a little puzzled as to why you think non-profits in general need to have their tax-exempt status revoked.

Because anything can be "non-profit", and I don't think it's right that because they choose to do something not for profit that they should be exempt from taxes. Profit seems to be very limited in its definition, monetary... obviously someone who has a disease will support a non-profit organization that attempts to cure that disease, personally I would think that person would "profit" from the organization. That example is something that's rather hard to brand as bad, but from a logical standpoint why should that be different than an organization that attempts to cure my boredom? boredom is bad... It's all degrees of things, and there is no way to draw a line, that's why I think it'd be best to not draw a line at all, no tax exemption, and if people want to donate, they can donate plus tax (this is where the whole people paying less in taxes if non-profits made up for it would help my arguement... because then people would relatively donate no more than they already are).

I just feel that if an organization is not paying taxes, citizens are blanketly making up for it and "donating" to that organization by mandate.

[TheEschaton]

The whole point of non-profits is that if they were taxed, and people theoretically had a lower taxes which they could donate to such causes, the unpopular yet necessary causes would lose their funding and have to close. I'm pretty sure even the popular ones wouldn't match their current funding.

-TheE-

[Warriorbird]

"I have a copy of The Way sitting on my desk, btw
-Khariz"

I suppose a self lashing bleached haired Paul Bettany is a good analogy for a law school student...

[Khariz]

I like your Travolta quote. How applicable to this thread!