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Gan
03-20-2007, 08:36 AM
Science Daily (http://www.sciencedaily.com/) — Discussions on global warming often refer to 'global temperature.' Yet the concept is thermodynamically as well as mathematically an impossibility, says Bjarne Andresen, a professor at The Niels Bohr Institute, University of Copenhagen, who has analyzed this topic in collaboration with professors Christopher Essex from University of Western Ontario and Ross McKitrick from University of Guelph, Canada.

It is generally assumed that the atmosphere and the oceans have grown warmer during the recent 50 years. The reason for this point of view is an upward trend in the curve of measurements of the so-called 'global temperature'. This is the temperature obtained by collecting measurements of air temperatures at a large number of measuring stations around the Globe, weighing them according to the area they represent, and then calculating the yearly average according to the usual method of adding all values and dividing by the number of points.

Average without meaning
"It is impossible to talk about a single temperature for something as complicated as the climate of Earth", Bjarne Andresen says, an an expert of thermodynamics. "A temperature can be defined only for a homogeneous system. Furthermore, the climate is not governed by a single temperature. Rather, differences of temperatures drive the processes and create the storms, sea currents, thunder, etc. which make up the climate".

He explains that while it is possible to treat temperature statistically locally, it is meaningless to talk about a a global temperature for Earth. The Globe consists of a huge number of components which one cannot just add up and average. That would correspond to calculating the average phone number in the phone book. That is meaningless. Or talking about economics, it does make sense to compare the currency exchange rate of two countries, whereas there is no point in talking about an average 'global exchange rate'.

If temperature decreases at one point and it increases at another, the average will remain the same as before, but it will give rise to an entirely different thermodynamics and thus a different climate. If, for example, it is 10 degrees at one point and 40 degrees at another, the average is 25 degrees. But if instead there is 25 degrees both places, the average is still 25 degrees. These two cases would give rise to two entirely different types of climate, because in the former case one would have pressure differences and strong winds, while in the latter there would be no wind.

Many averages
A further problem with the extensive use of 'the global temperature' is that there are many ways of calculating average temperatures.

Example 1: Take two equally large glasses of water. The water in one glass is 0 degrees, in the other it is 100 degrees. Adding these two numbers and dividing by two yields an average temperature of 50 degrees. That is called the arithmetic average.

Example 2: Take the same two glasses of water at 0 degrees and 100 degrees, respectively. Now multiply those two numbers and take the square root, and you will arrive at an average temperature of 46 degrees. This is called the geometric average. (The calculation is done in degrees Kelvin which are then converted back to degrees Celsius.)
The difference of 4 degrees is the energy which drives all the thermodynamic processes which create storms, thunder, sea currents, etc.

Claims of disaster?
These are but two examples of ways to calculate averages. They are all equally correct, but one needs a solid physical reason to choose one above another. Depending on the averaging method used, the same set of measured data can simultaneously show an upward trend and a downward trend in average temperature. Thus claims of disaster may be a consequence of which averaging method has been used, the researchers point out.

What Bjarne Andresen and his coworkers emphasize is that physical arguments are needed to decide whether one averaging method or another is needed to calculate an average which is relevant to describe the state of Earth.

Reference: C. Essex, R. McKitrick, B. Andresen: Does a Global Temperature Exist?; J. Non-Equil. Thermod. vol. 32, p. 1-27 (2007).

Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by University of Copenhagen.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070315101129.htm

Sean of the Thread
03-20-2007, 09:57 AM
On a side note we had a poker table go apeshit over global warming discussion last night.

One of the liberals actually had a seizure at the table and paramedics were called. Fucking hilarious.

Gan
03-20-2007, 10:40 AM
:rofl:

Warriorbird
03-20-2007, 11:06 AM
I tend to disregard science posts in a politics folder for some reason.

Gan
03-20-2007, 11:12 AM
And yet Global Warming fanatics seem to only use science when it backs up their wild assertions...

Back
03-20-2007, 11:16 AM
Funny how that works.

Warriorbird
03-20-2007, 11:19 AM
It's just like debating evolution with someone religious. I can't expect you to be rational. I can't expect some of the folks excessively devoted to this being right to be rational. I can expect, say, the National Academy of Sciences to be.

Parkbandit
03-20-2007, 11:20 AM
You fuck up my corporate model with your facts and other 'lies' and I will put you on /ignore so quick Ganalon, your head will spin.

Knock it off for at least 2 more years. Let the Backlashes of the world think what they want.. as long as they hire my company.

Asshole.

Ilvane
03-20-2007, 11:29 AM
http://www.climatechangefutures.org/report/index.html

The effect of climate change on global health in the future.

Now, it's not just global warming, but global climate change.

Angela

DeV
03-20-2007, 11:31 AM
I can't expect some of the folks excessively devoted to this being right to be rational.To add, that goes for those for as well as those against. They're like the equivalent of bible thumpers, except with science and oddly enough no one knows what the fuck they're talking about at the end of the day, just like their religious equivalents.

There is no middle ground.

Miss X
03-20-2007, 11:33 AM
Why are people so obsessed with trying to prove that human involvement in global warming is a false concept? I mean...Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't see why we would want to take chances. If we ignore it and it's true, we continue to destroy our planet. If we make changes and it's not true, then we've saved energy and fossil fuels and reduced pollution. I know which option is favourable.

There are little things we can all do that collectively will make a huge difference. We use energy saving light bulbs in our apartment, and we never leave electrical equipment on standby. We also do basic recycling, nothing major. It's not difficult, and we really shouldn't be willing, as a species, to take a risk.

Warriorbird
03-20-2007, 11:43 AM
Y'see...a lot of this craziness, from a Republican perspective, goes back to the domination theology notion that the Apocalypse will come in our lifetimes so we don't have to give a fuck about the planet or anything we do. It also really handily justifies invading the Middle East, because we have to "Protect Israel." during the End of Days.

I don't even think either of the those notions are particularly theologically sound. Jesus didn't seem to be the "fuck up the planet" or "invade countries." type but they'll never listen to that.

No, I'm not one of those people who's all "GLOBAL WARMING WILL KILLZOR US NEXT YEAR!" but I'm not about to buy into a campaign against science that's backed by religion. It's like "Intelligent Design." mark 2. The irony is a bunch of non Christian conservatives fall for this one too.

Global warming's not going to kill us tomorrow. Then again, we may also want to not completely fuck up the Earth. The multitude of kids that the Republicans want us to have (and several of the conservative posters do have) might want to have something nice to get their own chance at fucking up.

Back
03-20-2007, 11:53 AM
I have never heard anyone say OMGZ GLOBAL WARMINGS WIL KIL US ALLZ TOMORROWZ!!!! Well, except from people on this board who like to portray anyone who accepts the science as fact in that way.

Gan
03-20-2007, 12:02 PM
I have never heard anyone say OMGZ GLOBAL WARMINGS WIL KIL US ALLZ TOMORROWZ!!!! Well, except from people on this board who like to portray anyone who accepts the science as fact in that way.

See: Al Gore.

Parkbandit
03-20-2007, 12:04 PM
Global warming's not going to kill us tomorrow. Then again, we may also want to not completely fuck up the Earth. The multitude of kids that the Republicans want us to have (and several of the conservative posters do have) might want to have something nice to get their own chance at fucking up.

Speaking for the Conservatives.. we don't want everyone to have multitudes of kids.. just the right parents. Our hope is that people like you do not procreate.. and therefore the genealogical mutations and deformities will die with you.

:)

Parkbandit
03-20-2007, 12:05 PM
See: Al Gore.

LOL.

Exactly. Didn't he say something like we had 10 years before we hit a point of no return?

Sounds to me like it's an OMG GLOBAL WARMING R GONNA KILL US ALLZ!

Gan
03-20-2007, 12:06 PM
You fuck up my corporate model with your facts and other 'lies' and I will put you on /ignore so quick Ganalon, your head will spin.

Knock it off for at least 2 more years. Let the Backlashes of the world think what they want.. as long as they hire my company.

Asshole.

Buy my carbon offsets and I'll STFU. ;)

Sean of the Thread
03-20-2007, 12:07 PM
LOL.

Exactly. Didn't he say something like we had 10 years before we hit a point of no return?

Sounds to me like it's an OMG GLOBAL WARMING R GONNA KILL US ALLZ!

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/gore.jpg

Gan
03-20-2007, 12:07 PM
Speaking for the Conservatives.. we don't want everyone to have multitudes of kids.. just the right parents. Our hope is that people like you do not procreate.. and therefore the genealogical mutations and deformities will die with you.

:)


:lol:

Well said.

Parkbandit
03-20-2007, 12:07 PM
Why are people so obsessed with trying to prove that human involvement in global warming is a false concept? I mean...Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't see why we would want to take chances. If we ignore it and it's true, we continue to destroy our planet. If we make changes and it's not true, then we've saved energy and fossil fuels and reduced pollution. I know which option is favourable.

There are little things we can all do that collectively will make a huge difference. We use energy saving light bulbs in our apartment, and we never leave electrical equipment on standby. We also do basic recycling, nothing major. It's not difficult, and we really shouldn't be willing, as a species, to take a risk.

Why are people so obsessed with trying to prove that man is causing global warming?

Here's a hint:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$


Hell, my company is based upon the fears! I wouldn't be as successful today if it weren't for Gore to be honest. I drop the words Global Warming on every sales call I go on. The sheer guilt makes some of them sign on.

I <3 AL GORE!

Warriorbird
03-20-2007, 02:03 PM
"Our hope is that people like you do not procreate.. and therefore the genealogical mutations and deformities will die with you."

-Chief Eugenicist Parkbandit

That was in fact pretty low. Almost enough to make me Godwin's Law the thread...but I kind of think you already did that unintentionally.

Have a nice day.

Latrinsorm
03-20-2007, 02:34 PM
I like how the response to this guy saying "x is a meaningless concept" is "REPUBLICANS END OF DAYS ISRAEL". Am I seriously the only scientist here?

Warriorbird
03-20-2007, 03:01 PM
That wasn't actually what I was responding to, thanks. You've got some issues with references and representation. I heard that was pretty basic in science. Then again I'm not the type of person that thinks creation science is a science, either.

I'm not a scientist. I don't know one way or another... but people who've already come to a conclusion one way or another before they even start studying something tend to be wrong. Your attempt to paint me as somehow being dramatic goes against the stated ideals of the administration and many of its adherents, ideals that you've backed up countless times, Latrin.

Parkbandit's little eugenics speech and Ganalon's tacit acceptance of it also makes me pretty sick to be frank. I've never expressed a desire to make Republicans not exist through them not having children ...or suggested that they have genetic problems or mutations. That's pretty fucked up.

Parkbandit
03-20-2007, 06:25 PM
Parkbandit's little eugenics speech and Ganalon's tacit acceptance of it also makes me pretty sick to be frank. I've never expressed a desire to make Republicans not exist through them not having children ...or suggested that they have genetic problems or mutations. That's pretty fucked up.

Aw. I hurt WB's feelings.

Man, now I feel bad.

Someone can dish, but can't take. Boo fucking hoo.

Warriorbird
03-20-2007, 06:59 PM
:chuckles:

No. You just made me internally dismiss your rationality a bit more.

More shock than aww I assure you.