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Hulkein
01-21-2007, 08:22 PM
This was in the paper today. I thought it was an interesting read.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/sunday_review/16507550.htm

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Not a clash of religions

For many Western liberals - and even some conservatives - the war on terror is a clash of opposed fundamentalisms: Christian fundamentalism vs. Islamic fundamentalism. And the solution? Promote secularism both here in America and throughout the Muslim world. This means urging our Muslim allies in Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Egypt and elsewhere to get rid of Muslim laws and have secular laws. It means closing down the Muslim schools and replacing them with secular schools. It means encouraging secular programs on radio and TV.

Not only is this diagnosis of the problem wrong, but the solutions proposed are actually fueling Muslim rage and making future terrorist attacks against us more likely. The reason is that, from the point of view of Islamic radicals, America is not hated because it is Christian. Rather, America is hated because it is secular, what Osama bin Laden has called "the leading power of the unbelievers." So by promoting secularism, we are corroborating the charge of radical Muslims that we are the enemies of their religion, and this also alienates traditional Muslims and pushes them into the radical camp.

It is time to revisit some common assumptions. Many Americans consider Islamic fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists as essentially equivalent, "kindred spirits," in the words of the late novelist William Styron. Al Gore finds in President Bush "the American version of the same fundamentalist impulse that we see in Saudi Arabia." In her book The Mighty and the Almighty, Madeleine Albright frets that "hard-liners can find in the Koran and the Bible justifications for endless conflict."

In this view, Christian and Muslim religious fanatics are once again fighting each other, as they have done in the past. As Jim Wallis puts it in his book God's Politics, there is a close parallel between Islam's holy war against the West and George Bush's holy war against Islamic terrorism. From this perspective, the best solution is for America to stand up for the principles of secularism and oppose both Muslim fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism.

This view of the war is founded, however, on a superficial understanding of bin Laden's rhetoric declaring a religious war of civilizations. Bin Laden does speak of the world as being divided into a "region of faith" and a "region of infidelity." And at times he defines the clash as one between Muslims and the "crusaders."

But the context of bin Laden's arguments clearly shows that he is not speaking of a religious war between Islam and Christianity. In the same videotaped remarks in which he posits these conflicts, he praises Christianity. In one statement, he observes that Islam respects the prophets of Judaism, Christianity and Islam "without distinguishing among them."

In the classical Muslim understanding, there is a fundamental distinction between Jews and Christians, on the one hand, and polytheists and atheists on the other. According to Islam, Judaism and Christianity are incomplete but genuine revelations. As monotheists, Jews and Christians have historically been entitled to Muslim respect and even protection. In every Islamic empire, from the Umayyad to the Abbasid to the Ottoman, Jews and Christians were permitted to practice their religion, and in no Muslim regime has it ever been considered legitimate to systematically kill them.

By contrast, polytheists and atheists have always been anathema to Islam. The Koran says, "Fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them." These passages, which bin Laden frequently quotes, do not refer to Christians, because Christians are not considered pagans or idolaters. Rather, they refer to those, like the Bedouins of ancient Arabia, who worship many gods or no god. Muslims are commanded to fight these unbelievers, especially when they threaten the House of Islam.

Muslim radicals could repudiate the entire Islamic tradition and argue that Christians and Jews are no different from atheists and deserve the same treatment. But this claim would undoubtedly alienate traditional Muslims. Sheikh Sayyed Muhammad Tantawi, head of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, recently argued the traditional view that "Islam has never been and will never be at war with Christianity."

For bin Laden to declare war against Christianity would divide even the radical Muslim camp. The influential radical Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi has said that Muslims "believe in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Our Islamic faith is not complete without them."

Islamic radicals such as bin Laden make their case against America and the West not on the grounds that these cultures are Christian, but on the grounds that they have abandoned Christianity. In his May 2006 letter to President Bush, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad faulted America not for being Christian, but for not being Christian enough. Many years earlier, the radical theoretician Sayyid Qutb made the same point: The main reason for the West's moral decay is that in the modern era, "religious convictions are no more than a matter of antiquarian interest."

Other Muslim radicals today echo these arguments. The influential Pakistani scholar Khurshid Ahmad, leader of the Islamic Assembly of Students, or Islami Jamiat-e-Talaba, argues: "Had Western culture been based on Christianity, on morality, on faith, the language and modus operandi of the contact and conflict would have been different. But that is not the case. The choice is between the divine principle and a secular materialistic culture."

Even though Christianity has eroded, Muslim radicals contend that the ancient crusading spirit now infuses the pagan culture of the West. When bin Laden calls America a crusader state, he means that America is on a vicious international campaign to impose its atheist system of government and its pagan values on Muslims. How? By supporting secular dictators in Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. And by exporting a secular culture that undermines the traditional values of Islam.

In this way, bin Laden argues that America is hell-bent on destroying the Muslim religion. The rallying cry of Islamic radicalism is that "Islam is under attack." In a 1998 declaration, bin Laden called on Muslims to "launch attacks against the armies of the American devils" and to kill Americans, whom he identified as the "helpers of Satan." In a 2003 sermon, he praised the Sept. 11 hijackers and compared the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center to the idols in the Kaaba that the Prophet Muhammad destroyed in the year 630 upon his victorious return to Mecca.

Thus, the liberal doctrine that the war against terrorism is a battle of two opposed forms of religious fundamentalism is false. This is not why the Islamic radicals are fighting against America. From the perspective of bin Laden and his allies, the war is between the Muslim-led forces of monotheism and morality against the America-led forces of atheism and immorality. Secularism, not Christian fundamentalism, is responsible for producing a blowback of Muslim rage.
Dinesh D'Souza (dineshjdsouza@aol.com) will discuss his new book, "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11," at 6:30 p.m. Jan. 31 at the National Constitution Center (215-409-6700; http://www.constitutioncenter.org).

Stanley Burrell
01-21-2007, 08:45 PM
Duct tape?

ElanthianSiren
01-21-2007, 08:48 PM
Oh well, what can you do? When people are determined to be ignorant, they will be, and they will stir up followers as Bin Laden. :shrug:

It's nice that they did a litmus test in the towers however to make sure no Christian, Jews, or other Muslims were there that day.

-M

TheEschaton
01-21-2007, 11:24 PM
Uhhh, I don't think liberals think it's actually a war against two religions, I, at least, fear our administration is more likely to go to war with a nation that is predominantly Muslim as opposed to Christian because there's a subconscious condescending attitude towards them.

Furthermore, secularism is kind of a broad label as to what Osama is motivated by. I'd say it's more fueled by a disdain of American-style globalization which is supposedly (up for debate, I guess) forced on other countries...this is in turn supposedly fueled further by our secularism in that if we were an actual religious nation - we would have moral checks on our globalization.

This is all conjecture on my part, I don't claim to know what Osama is thinking. But I don't know that he's ever really denounced the Pope for being too religious, or at all?

-TheE-

Parkbandit
01-21-2007, 11:47 PM
This is all conjecture on my part, I don't claim to know...

-TheE-

You really don't need to put this on the bottom of any of your political posts.. we know.

Incidently, I thought George Bush hated black people.. now he hates muslims too?

Tsa`ah
01-21-2007, 11:51 PM
Dubya doesn't give a shit about anyone that makes under 50k a year .... I don't think he gives a rat's ass if they're black, white, asian, hispanic, arab, etc.

Parkbandit
01-21-2007, 11:55 PM
Excellent. Now we are getting somewhere. We'll keep this list going and keep adding to it because I really don't think we've come to know all the Hate that is George W. Bush.

Blacks
Muslims
Poor people

TheEschaton
01-21-2007, 11:57 PM
I don't think he hates them....


...but subconsciously, I think it's a reason....as in...when all the evidence is shaky and circumstantial....sort of a mental process kicks in which says, "Ahhh, well, they're just Muslims".

It's an indifference to them, not a hatred.

Skirmisher
01-22-2007, 03:19 AM
Excellent. Now we are getting somewhere. We'll keep this list going and keep adding to it because I really don't think we've come to know all the Hate that is George W. Bush.

Blacks
Muslims
Poor people

Five damn days
Five long days
And at the end of the fifth
He's walking in like heeyyyy.

Parkbandit
01-22-2007, 07:32 AM
I don't think he hates them....


...but subconsciously, I think it's a reason....as in...when all the evidence is shaky and circumstantial....sort of a mental process kicks in which says, "Ahhh, well, they're just Muslims".

It's an indifference to them, not a hatred.

So subconsciously, he hates muslims, blacks and poor people or just muslims subconsciously and poor people and blacks consciously?

Gan
01-22-2007, 07:44 AM
:rofl:

Back
01-22-2007, 09:41 AM
Uh, right. This guy didn’t come up with any real revelation nor any solutions. He is promoting division which America doesn't need right now.

Xaerve
01-22-2007, 10:02 AM
The article is dead on. Fundamentalist Christianity actually, as is evidenced by the easier integration of mainstream Islamic groups in the United States, is much more friendly towards Muslims. It is Secular Europe where the real problems are brewing.

Parkbandit
01-22-2007, 10:50 AM
Uh, right. This guy didn’t come up with any real revelation nor any solutions.

Maybe he's a Democrat... you give them a clear pass when they do the exact same thing.

Parkbandit
01-22-2007, 10:51 AM
The article is dead on. Fundamentalist Christianity actually, as is evidenced by the easier integration of mainstream Islamic groups in the United States, is much more friendly towards Muslims. It is Secular Europe where the real problems are brewing.

I can't WAIT for the French to ask us to bail them out.. again.

Back
01-22-2007, 11:38 AM
Maybe he's a Democrat... you give them a clear pass when they do the exact same thing.

Have you read it?

Basically he is saying that radical Islam is at war with western secularism. Pretty sure everyone was aware of that already.

Then he goes so far as to blame the “left”, who is more secular than the “right”, for all the hostility of the entire Muslim population. Not just psychotic mass murdering sociopaths but moderates as well.

He gives no solution for this assessment. Unless it is the implied solution of becoming more religious in fear of hostility from the east.

Ultimately I find it completely divisive, counter productive and inaccurate in that the entire Muslim world is out to kill every secular person on the planet.

Hulkein
01-22-2007, 11:56 AM
inaccurate in that the entire Muslim world is out to kill every secular person on the planet.

He makes it clear that they're out to get those people who push their secular views on them. Not that they're going to or want to kill every secular person, just those who threaten their beliefs.

CrystalTears
01-22-2007, 12:02 PM
Uhhh, I don't think liberals think it's actually a war against two religions, I, at least, fear our administration is more likely to go to war with a nation that is predominantly Muslim as opposed to Christian because there's a subconscious condescending attitude towards them.-TheE-
Wow, thanks for giving me yet another reason to avoid political topics on these forums.

Edited to say: I'm saying that because it baffles and saddens me that people actually believe that the administration is low enough to go to war because they're not Christian. And here I thought I had heard all the bizarre excuses already.

Back
01-22-2007, 12:11 PM
He makes it clear that they're out to get those people who push their secular views on them. Not that they're going to or want to kill every secular person, just those who threaten their beliefs.

I was going off of this part...


In the classical Muslim understanding, there is a fundamental distinction between Jews and Christians, on the one hand, and polytheists and atheists on the other. According to Islam, Judaism and Christianity are incomplete but genuine revelations. As monotheists, Jews and Christians have historically been entitled to Muslim respect and even protection. In every Islamic empire, from the Umayyad to the Abbasid to the Ottoman, Jews and Christians were permitted to practice their religion, and in no Muslim regime has it ever been considered legitimate to systematically kill them.

By contrast, polytheists and atheists have always been anathema to Islam. The Koran says, "Fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them." These passages, which bin Laden frequently quotes, do not refer to Christians, because Christians are not considered pagans or idolaters. Rather, they refer to those, like the Bedouins of ancient Arabia, who worship many gods or no god. Muslims are commanded to fight these unbelievers, especially when they threaten the House of Islam.

Latrinsorm
01-22-2007, 12:28 PM
Uh, right. This guy didn’t come up with any real revelation nor any solutions. He is promoting division which America doesn't need right now.I'm pretty sure he's promoting unity(ish) between secularism and religion(s). There's a lot of support for the modern (as in pre-postmodern) idea that religion is something necessarily private, something that should be excluded from public behavior at all times. This has always been a pretty schizophrenic idea, but now people are starting to recognize how much of a divisive and abrasive force it is in international relations on top of it being a generally nonsensical idea.

A cursory examination of history shows that atheists/polytheists have not always been a problem for Islam, so it stands to reason that the cited passages are being misinterpreted (if they exist at all).

Kembal
01-22-2007, 06:32 PM
No, he's not. D'Souza (who wrote the article, and the book it's based off of) is a freaking hack. He's essentially promoting a message that the whole problem is the American anti-war left, and that they are traitors and the cause of 9/11, Al-Qaeda, and a whole host of other sorts of evil.

He's been slammed pretty much all over the place, including by other conservatives. I especially liked how Colbert took him down. Here's a link: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/01/17/colbert-nails-dinesh-dsouza. You can play the video from there.

Back
01-22-2007, 06:41 PM
Just don’t take anyone’s word for it either. Read that article and really think about what he is saying, why he is saying it and what possible good its going to do for any of the groups involved.

Latrinsorm
01-22-2007, 07:19 PM
Regardless of what he wants to promote (I still think unity, but meh), he makes a factual claim in the article that has to be addressed. Namely, "Not only is this diagnosis of the problem wrong, but the solutions proposed are actually fueling Muslim rage and making future terrorist attacks against us more likely." You can say he's just a left-basher if you want, but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

TheEschaton
01-22-2007, 11:26 PM
Which solutions are fueling Muslim rage? You mean the solutions to protect Israel, invade a Muslim nation, call it operation "Enduring Freedom", and secure the oil wells before civilian centers?

Because those seem, to me, to be solutions offered by Bush & Co.

-TheE-

Bartlett
01-25-2007, 03:14 AM
He makes it clear that they're out to get those people who push their secular views on them. Not that they're going to or want to kill every secular person, just those who threaten their beliefs.


I was going off of this part...




In the classical Muslim understanding, there is a fundamental distinction between Jews and Christians, on the one hand, and polytheists and atheists on the other. According to Islam, Judaism and Christianity are incomplete but genuine revelations. As monotheists, Jews and Christians have historically been entitled to Muslim respect and even protection. In every Islamic empire, from the Umayyad to the Abbasid to the Ottoman, Jews and Christians were permitted to practice their religion, and in no Muslim regime has it ever been considered legitimate to systematically kill them.

By contrast, polytheists and atheists have always been anathema to Islam. The Koran says, "Fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them." These passages, which bin Laden frequently quotes, do not refer to Christians, because Christians are not considered pagans or idolaters. Rather, they refer to those, like the Bedouins of ancient Arabia, who worship many gods or no god. Muslims are commanded to fight these unbelievers, especially when they threaten the House of Islam.


Actually, Christians are considered polygamists in the muslim faith (We believe in a trinity Father, Son, Holy Spirit- three persons, one God. Muslims view the deity of Christ as worshipping more than one God). The Jews are dirty dogs because they rejected Mohammed as a prophet, which is when Mohammed created his own religion and told his followers to face Mecca instead of Jerusalem.

As for Jews and Christians being respected and protected by the Muslims.. I would be interested to see the historical fact behind this comment. I could be in the dark, but based on the other "fact" in that article, I doubt I am.

If you think the Quran is about peace and love to the Jews and Christians who refuse to deny Christ and accept Mohammed, you should probably read the book instead of believing what our liberal, Christian bashing media/education system tells you about it. Islam means Submit, not peace

On a side note, I have read that many suicide bombers and others are motivated more by the fact that we killed their families years ago than religion. The religion aspect is just twisted to give them justification for their actions.

Latrinsorm
01-25-2007, 12:10 PM
I would be interested to see the historical fact behind this comment.Karen Armstrong's book "Islam" will give you all you need. To get you started, though, investigate the original community at Medina and the Fatimid Caliphate. It's beyond reason to claim that different religions cannot peacefully coexist.
Islam means Submit, not peaceSubmission to God, who is all-merciful and compassionate and so on. It's rather like certain Christian concepts of the Sabbath as a period and state of mind rather than a weekly occurance.

TheEschaton
01-25-2007, 12:28 PM
Catholicism is all about the absolute submission to the will to God.

-TheE-