Questions raised by Iraq hangings

[zhelas]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42454000/jpg/_42454313_barzan_ap203body.jpg

The Iraqi government again finds itself criticised by its closest Western allies - the United States and Britain - for carrying out "undignified" hangings.

The day which started with the pre-dawn executions of Saddam Hussein's half-brother and former intelligence chief Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti and former head of the Iraqi Revolutionary Court, Awad Hamed al-Bandar, has not ended well.

The official announcement of the executions made much of the lengths the authorities had gone to in order to prevent any abuse of the condemned men this time after unofficial video shot on a mobile phone at Saddam Hussein's hanging had shown him being taunted on the gallows.

All those present at the latest executions had signed a document saying they would behave according to the rules.

There were apparently fewer witnesses on this occasion. They were searched more thoroughly, particularly for cameras or other recording devices.

And, said officials, there were no abuses, no slogans, no insults, no violations.

But then came the bombshell of these executions - the admission that the head of Barzan al-Tikriti had been ripped from his body as he was being hanged.

It was described by officials as a rare incident, something that can sometimes happen at hangings, an act of God.

It seemed that they were keen to pre-empt this gruesome detail of the executions emerging in any other way and being exploited for political ends.

But they must have anticipated the reaction. It came swiftly from the defence team, who suspected malpractice, and various figures in the Sunni community weighed in, too - questioning how there could have been such a mistake.

Counter-move

As Arabic language TV channels took the story into homes around the region, the Iraqi authorities called an unexpected news conference.

Journalists were shown official video of the hangings - apparently in a further move to counter any claims that the body of the former intelligence chief could have been mutilated after death.

The government spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh, said: "We will not release the video but we want to show the truth. The Iraqi government acted in a neutral way."

One thing the authorities insisted on was that the rope used to hang Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti did not break.

But that simply left unanswered the question of how the hanging did go awry, leading to his head being severed.

The whole process of delivering justice to the victims of Saddam Hussein and his henchmen has been challenging and often criticised - the legacy of totalitarian government is invariably messy.

But there are so many controversies around the manner of Saddam Hussein's removal and the efforts to build a new society in Iraq based on the rule of law that Iraq's government can ill-afford yet another, particularly with these executions commanding so much attention around the world - and the rights and wrongs of the death penalty itself a global issue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6265415.stm

[Drew2]

Wtf. You're killing an asshole that probably was responsible for the loss of many other people's lives. Who gives a shit how he's killed.

[zhelas]

Wtf. You're killing an asshole that probably was responsible for the loss of many other people's lives. Who gives a shit how he's killed.

I just found it interesting that his head popped off.

[Drew2]

I wasn't talking to you directly, I was speaknig in general. There shouldn't even be an article on this.

[Gan]

Wtf. You're killing an asshole that probably was responsible for the loss of many other people's lives. Who gives a shit how he's killed.

^^^

I like a bullet to the head, and a bill to the family.

Quick, relatively painless (after the first few milli-seconds).

Although, I'm also for consideration in how their victims died before everyone screams about the humanity of their execution.

[zhelas]

^^^

I like a bullet to the head, and a bill to the family.

Quick, relatively painless (after the first few milli-seconds).

Although, I'm also for consideration in how their victims died before everyone screams about the humanity of their execution.

Chinese government does this correct?

[Gan]

Yes.

Unfortunately they skip the trials usually, and just jump straight from arrest to execution.

Other than that, they're pretty efficient in that respect.

[crazymage]

Sounds efficient all around to me.

[TheEschaton]

Because the ethic of life espoused by Cardinal Bernadin says people are human beings (and thus worth the dignity of human beings) from womb to the tomb.

To treat a man like a piece of meat - even this man, is considered wrong by many. Especially religious people, whether they be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.

Muslims think the body is so holy they're not allowed to depict it in art, from what I understand.

-TheE-

[Gan]

Because the ethic of life espoused by Cardinal Bernadin says people are human beings (and thus worth the dignity of human beings) from womb to the tomb.

To treat a man like a piece of meat - even this man, is considered wrong by many. Especially religious people, whether they be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.

Muslims think the body is so holy they're not allowed to depict it in art, from what I understand.

-TheE-

Dignity is not automatic but earned in my opinion. Much the same as respect.

Act like an animal, get treated like an animal.

Its a simple equation. And a simple solution.

[Parkbandit]

Because the ethic of life espoused by Cardinal Bernadin says people are human beings (and thus worth the dignity of human beings) from womb to the tomb.

To treat a man like a piece of meat - even this man, is considered wrong by many. Especially religious people, whether they be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc.

Muslims think the body is so holy they're not allowed to depict it in art, from what I understand.

-TheE-


It's not like the government knew he had a neck made of paper. It happens during hangings sometimes.

[Stanley Burrell]

http://us.games2.yimg.com/download.games.yahoo.com/games/buzz/content/p/8/20558/mortal_kombat1fatality.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

Also, LoL @ many media reports on this article as being a thermodynamic quantum physical miscalculation by the supposed Einstein with twelve scientific disciplines at the gallows lever :rolleyes:

[TheEschaton]

Dignity is not automatic but earned in my opinion. Much the same as respect.


Almost every major religious and moral thinker ever, and most philosophers, would disagree with this, and state that human dignity is inherent, and it cannot be lost due to someone's opinion.

-TheE-

[Back]

The bad guys were hanged. The government elected. No WMDs and no way in hell they’ll obtain any for years and years. Our job is done.

[Parkbandit]

The bad guys were hanged. The government elected. No WMDs and no way in hell they’ll obtain any for years and years. Our job is done.

So.. do we just pick up our tents and go?

[Back]

So.. do we just pick up our tents and go?

Yep. Quit Iraq.

[sst]

The bad guys were hanged. The government elected. No WMDs and no way in hell they’ll obtain any for years and years. Our job is done.

Tell that to the guy we found blindfolded, torture, and cuffed in a basement covered in blood yesterday, and the 6 bodies we found heaped up in a "farm" and the 4 weapons caches, and the people begging us not to leave the area for fear of us not coming back.

[Parkbandit]

Yep. Quit Iraq.

I can only hope we have far more intelligent people in Government. I have my doubts.. since it's almost 2008 though

[Drew2]

Tell that to the guy we found blindfolded, torture, and cuffed in a basement covered in blood yesterday, and the 6 bodies we found heaped up in a "farm" and the 4 weapons caches, and the people begging us not to leave the area for fear of us not coming back.

Explain how that's our problem.

[Back]

Tell that to the guy we found blindfolded, torture, and cuffed in a basement covered in blood yesterday, and the 6 bodies we found heaped up in a "farm" and the 4 weapons caches, and the people begging us not to leave the area for fear of us not coming back.

I admire your sense to do right by your fellow man be they American or Iraqi. I just feel that it would be in everyone’s best interest that we leave. I don’t think leaving Iraq means we’ve lost when you consider there are no WMDs, they won’t get any for a long time, the people elected a new government and Saddam and his gang have been toppled, tried and hanged.

[Gan]

The cut and run sentiment here is becomming overwhelming, and yet not suprising.

Wow.

[ElanthianSiren]

I don't believe leaving is the answer, but I also don't believe that an open ended committment is the answer either. Both parties in this country seem to accentuate one or the other of these two positions, leaving the middle-road voices buried. Governments have to show responsibility; the U.S. for going in there without the right amount of research, boots, and strategy. -The Iraqis for electing someone that has a Shiaa-bias, not holding him accountable for his bias, and for not meeting benchmarks suggested by the last congressional administration (and Bush). This administration needs to define what winning means and in realistic, concise terms.

-M

[Gan]

The bad guys were hanged. The government elected. No WMDs and no way in hell they’ll obtain any for years and years. Our job is done.


So.. do we just pick up our tents and go?

Who cares!?! As long as you dont interfere with his supply of Boones Strawberry Hill, his exotic coffee, his weed, and his cable TV and Internet he's fine with leaving the Iraqi's to their own demise. Capitalism and freedom be damned (unless it applies or affects the above).

[Parkbandit]

In a way, I do agree with Backlash. We've ensured that Iraq won't be possessing, manufacturing or selling WMD anytime soon. That's as far as my agreement goes though. From here, we need to ensure that Iraq doesn't become a breeding ground for terrorists and we owe it to the people of Iraq to stabilize their country and allow democracy to take hold.

My favorite part of all this is the politicians who were yelling for MORE TROOPS, MORE TROOPS!!!! WE NEED MORE TROOPS THERE DAMMIT!!!!! and now that Bush sent them, they are like "WE NEED LESS TROOPS! LESS TROOPS! THEY ARE KILLING OUR BOYS OVER THERE!!!"

[Drew2]

we need to ensure that Iraq doesn't become a breeding ground for terrorists and we owe it to the people of Iraq to stabilize their country and allow democracy to take hold.

Yeah, because they've given our country so much assistance and love.

[Parkbandit]

Yeah, because they've given our country so much assistance and love.


Granted... but if we were to leave now and Iraq did become another 'country' that was really run by terrorist groups.. what then? We go back in 5 years when again they become a threat to us? Or do we stay, try to establish a meaningful peace and government and hope that the seeds of democracy sprout, flourish and grow.

[Back]

Granted... but if we were to leave now and Iraq did become another 'country' that was really run by terrorist groups.. what then? We go back in 5 years when again they become a threat to us? Or do we stay, try to establish a meaningful peace and government and hope that the seeds of democracy sprout, flourish and grow.

I notice you talk in “ifs”, “whats” and “could be”s.

I’m sorry to say this, but you are completely delusional. Whatever the Iraqis need to sort out? They will sort out. And that was our plan, wasn’t it? To let them figure it all out? Well... that was our plan once we never found WMDs...

I could totally rant on the sheer ignorance you display... but give me an honest answer.

[Parkbandit]

I notice you talk in “ifs”, “whats” and “could be”s.

I’m sorry to say this, but you are completely delusional. Whatever the Iraqis need to sort out? They will sort out. And that was our plan, wasn’t it? To let them figure it all out? Well... that was our plan once we never found WMDs...

I could totally rant on the sheer ignorance you display... but give me an honest answer.


There are certain words you should never use Backlash. We've gone over hypocrite.. I think you understand why. Another one is ignorance.... I think you also understand why.

For someone who preaches that we need to look at the big picture when it comes to global warming, I would think you would attempt to take a look at the big picture here as well. If we pull out of Iraq like you suggest.. it's not the Iraqiis that will be sorting anything out. It will be the Syrians and Iranians that will be taking over.

[Back]

If we pull out of Iraq like you suggest.. it's not the Iraqiis that will be sorting anything out. It will be the Syrians and Iranians that will be taking over.

I’m purloining your post to extrapolate the most poignant part, if you don’t mind.

Who do you not fear? You PWN people day and night. We know. Simple Americans must be easy game for you.

Don't tell me you actually fear backwood Syrians and Iranians now. You know, because they don’t post here?

[Gan]

I’m purloining your post to extrapolate the most poignant part, if you don’t mind.

Who do you not fear? You PWN people day and night. We know. Simple Americans must be easy game for you.

Don't tell me you actually fear backwood Syrians and Iranians now. You know, because they don’t post here?

^^^

This has got to be the stupidest post of the month.

[Back]

^^^

This has got to be the stupidest post of the month.

You are just laughable. Really. If it weren't for the seriousness of the real situation.

[Gan]

You are just laughable. Really. If it weren't for the seriousness of the real situation.

You're just high, its clearly evident by the nonsense of your posts.

[Back]

You're just high, its clearly evident by the nonsense of your posts.


Im high. Yep. Its what normal people do on weekends. Work hard, play hard. Beer, as far as I know, is still sanctioned by our government. So whats your excuse for being stupid?

[Gan]

So whats your excuse for being stupid?

Listening to you.

[Parkbandit]

^^^

This has got to be the stupidest post of the month.

In Backlash's defense, he's posted much stupider things and I think it's unfair for you to pull one drug induced post and call it the stupidest post in a whole month. I imagine if you look back over January 2007 and look at any post of his that done between 7pm on Friday and 11am Sunday, you would find plenty of really, really stupid posts by him.

Just another shining example of what drugs do to an already ignorant mind. Sad part is.. he thought he was being smart :(

[Parkbandit]

Im high. Yep. Its what normal people do on weekends. Work hard, play hard. Beer, as far as I know, is still sanctioned by our government. So whats your excuse for being stupid?

:?:

Since when do people call being drunk, being high? I thought drunk was for alcohol and high was for drugs?

Maybe I'm old :(

[TheEschaton]

Dudes,

I'm willing to bet $100 that if we pull out in the next year, Iraq WILL be in a full out civil war. It'll be like Somalia (and Afghanistan) with the warlords all vying for control. In this situation warlords = raddical clerics like al-Sadr.

We cannot pull out, but as ES stated, we cannot have an open-ended commitment. What boggles me is how no one is willing to lay out a REASONABLE plan for withdrawal. One side says "Out, now." and the other says "As long as it takes..." I'm sorry, but Vietnam is just now recovering from the war there - do you want to keep troops in Iraq "as long as it takes"?

As for "owing it to the Iraqi people to stay", I agree, but not for your reasons, PB. I believe we've caused the situation there - and therefore we have to stay until it is fixed.

Forget the talk about disabling Iraq from having WMD - none were found, capacity to build them, not found, and so on, so forth. Our "reason" now is the same reason we did this to county's during the Cold War: to make the country pro-Western and on our side in potential future conflicts (a reason I disagree with, but it's in the past now). If we're gonna do that - we should at least wait til the country is stable enough to support free ideas.

-TheE-

[Gan]

The only thing I see about publicizing a reasonable plan for withdrawal is that as a opposing combatant, that would greatly factor into my plans. I would then just sit tight until you left, then carry on my merry way without resistance.

I agree that we need a plan, and it needs to have clear objectives and a goal to focus on; however, its not one that needs to be publicized or politicized.

[Skirmisher]

Explain how that's our problem.

Because it was our brilliant foreign policy that left the situation in Iraq as screwed up as it is.

I may think that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and co are the biggest fuckups in recent memory but the fact is that we are still responsible for allowing the chaos that exists in Iraq to get to the point it is.

I may hate it and grate my teeth while saying it but i do feel we owe it to the vast percentage of the Iraqi people who simply want to live a somewhat peaceful life to try to ensure some semblance of order is in place before leaving.

The relatively small percentage actually fighting and attacking US troops should not be confused with the much larger majority of people who just want to live.

To include all Iraqi's when saying how they are attacking us would be like saying all people in Los angeles hate cops and want them dead because the gang/drug elements may feel that way.