View Full Version : Iran opens conference discussing Holocost.
TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran opened a conference on Monday to examine the Holocaust and question whether Nazi Germany used gas chambers to kill Jews, drawing condemnation in the West and criticism from Iran's Jewish community.
Jewish rabbis were present at the government-sponsored event "Review of the Holocaust: Global Vision" alongside academics from Europe, where some countries have made it a crime to deny the Nazi killing of 6 million Jews from 1933 to 1945.
"The aim of this conference is not to deny or confirm the Holocaust," Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said in a welcome address. "Its main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust."
The event, which Iran has said will question whether gas chambers were actually used against the Jews, has drawn widespread criticism from Holocaust survivors, Jewish organizations, human rights groups and Western governments.
Sessions at the two-day conference, held at the Foreign Ministry's Institute for Political and International Studies, were to include "Holocaust: Aftermath and Exploitation" and "Demography: Denial or Confirmation?"
The conference was inspired by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who since coming to power in August 2005 has sparked international condemnation with comments referring to the Holocaust as a "myth" and calling Israel a "tumor".
Among the participants was U.S. academic David Duke, a former Louisiana Republican Representative. He praised Iran for hosting the event.
"There must be freedom of speech, it is scandalous that the Holocaust cannot be discussed freely," Duke, a former Ku Klux Klan leader told Reuters. "It makes people turn a blind eye to Israel's crimes against the Palestinian people."
more...
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-12-11T122358Z_01_L11639597_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAN-HOLOCAUST.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
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:wtf: :lol:
And where does David Duke fit in the realm of credibility that discussions of this absolute nature seem to already lack?
I can perhaps (in a long stretch) see this as an attempt at objectively looking at both sides, but come on. Surely there's someone better than David Duke to represent that side of the debate.
Goretawn
12-11-2006, 03:45 PM
Reminds me of South Park. When they wanted to lose the debate on purpose so they invited the KKK to be on their side. Don't remember the exact situation, but it comes to mind. Dumb asses.
Parkbandit
12-11-2006, 04:05 PM
I hear their key note speaker is going to be Mel Gibson.
Goretawn
12-11-2006, 04:26 PM
With special appearance by the ghost of Hitler.
Daniel
12-11-2006, 04:43 PM
I don't even see why it matters.
Skirmisher
12-11-2006, 04:48 PM
I also say to just ignore it.
Give them no press coverage as it is only intended to do what it is doing in getting people upset.
When they are ready to come back to the grown ups table fantastic.
Ignore the tantrum till then.
Sean of the Thread
12-11-2006, 05:01 PM
Good call! Ignore the very extreme problem with IRAN and it will just go away.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/final.jpg
Some Iranians having a conference for Holocaust deniers is an extreme problem with Iran?
I heard that a group of students held up a poster of Ahmadenijad (during one of his public speeches) that was upside down and lit it on fire while chanting "death to the dictator". Then they lit off a firecracker. I'm waiting to see the story; and I'm also waiting to see what will happen to the students.
Found it.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/11/061211130257.ypfkzp5b.html
Sean of the Thread
12-11-2006, 05:18 PM
That would be only part of the problem but considering Iran's stance on the Jews the connection is obvious.
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iran on Monday opened a two-day conference exploring the validity of the Nazi Holocaust, a move that has sparked outrage among Jewish groups.
Manouchehr Mohammadi, Iran's deputy foreign minister for research, told Iran's state-run news agency, IRNA, that Tehran's leaders would accept that the Holocaust occurred if scholars attending the conference could prove that the Nazi regime exterminated 6 million Jews during World War II.
He said the conference is to be held in response to international outrage at Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's repeated assertion that the Holocaust is a myth.
Mohammadi said Tehran also plans to host conferences to look into what he described as genocide by Europeans against Native Americans, Africans and the Palestinians.
I don't think I have to explain how Iran is a problem to the progress of peace in the world.
Skirmisher
12-11-2006, 05:20 PM
Good call! Ignore the very extreme problem with IRAN and it will just go away.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/final.jpg
:thanx:
Latrinsorm
12-11-2006, 05:28 PM
"Its main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust." It should worry people that (some of) the democracies of Europe have less tolerance for free speech than Iran in any scenario, if these people are to champion Euro-American democracy as a vehicle of freedom.
Good call! Ignore the very extreme problem with IRAN and it will just go away.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/final.jpg
Or, don’t be so skurred of the hype. I bet you sleep with a nightlight.
I also say to just ignore it.
Give them no press coverage as it is only intended to do what it is doing in getting people upset.
Exactly the same kind of attitude continental Europe and the United States had regarding the Nazi's from 1920-1939 (or 42 if you were the US).
Skirmisher
12-11-2006, 05:43 PM
Exactly the same kind of attitude continental Europe and the United States had regarding the Nazi's from 1920-1939 (or 42 if you were the US).
omgyes
Neville is my all time hero and stuff.
Or...
Maybe I just meant this one occasion which is obviously mean to insult and hurt people's feelings and inflame certain people into doing things that would be counter productive.
Maybe....
Sean of the Thread
12-11-2006, 06:16 PM
Or, don’t be so skurred of the hype. I bet you sleep with a nightlight.
The hype? You mean facts sir.
Tisket
12-11-2006, 07:00 PM
Ignore the problem until it subsides...
The problem with this is that if you feed a line of bullshit to someone that has no access or motivation to look to other information sources then that bullshit becomes fact to the listener. This is occurring in a country where state controlled media is the norm. Add to this the average middle eastern citizen's dislike of Jews in general and this could be a very effective conference. Fertile ground is the first step to a bountiful harvest.
Sean of the Thread
12-11-2006, 07:11 PM
Ignore the problem until it subsides...
The problem with this is that if you feed a line of bullshit to someone that has no access or motivation to look to other information sources then that bullshit becomes fact to the listener. This is occurring in a country where state controlled media is the norm. Add to this the average middle eastern citizen's dislike of Jews in general and this could be a very effective conference. Fertile ground is the first step to a bountiful harvest.
Add nuclear weapons to the mix and it's a real party.
I say pre-emptive strike or it didn't happen.
The hype? You mean facts sir.
No, I mean hype. Iran getting a nuke and using it is not a fact, its hype.
On the issue of this conference. Yes, it does seem one sided and thats disappointing. What needs to happen is all parties involved need to have an open dialogue. Yes, coffee and pastry diplomacy.
The lines of communication have been down for too long. No party knows whats going on with the other parties so everyone takes to defensive posturing which inevitably leads to conflict.
I feel the establishment of a Palestinian state, recognized by the global community, and putting Israel in check (because come on they break so many resolutions its not funny), will ultimately bring the kind of stability that region needs desperately.
Sean of the Thread
12-11-2006, 08:15 PM
I just looked at the clock before replying.. it's past 8 oc EST which means blacklash is drunk and high by this time and thus I'll not call him a retarded idiot.
Latrinsorm
12-11-2006, 08:18 PM
Add to this the average middle eastern citizen's dislike of Jews in generalIt's astonishing that this comment went unchallenged. :(
It's downright embarrassing that people are so quick to assume that, despite the words of Foreign Minister Mottaki, the purpose of this conference is in fact to deny the Holocaust and in some nebulous sense promote anti-Judaism.
No, I mean hype. Iran getting a nuke and using it is not a fact, its hype.
Well, AhmeGazuendheit's intention of enriching plutonium to the point of being weapon capable is pretty much a foregone conclusion based on his own words, or what I've understood them to be by the reports I've read. So I would say thats an eminent fact, or soon to be one.
Now being crazy enough to use it in such close quarters with other already nuke armed countries, well, thats not a fact persay, but I'd say its close enough to have betting odds on.
The real question is do we wait until he sets one off or do we try to prevent it?
Would you feel more comfortable if you knew you would be the casualty that initiates a reactive response to something crazy like that?
(Ok guys! Iran just smoked Israel with a 50 kt nuke. Those poor bastards, NOW WE CAN GET EM BOYS!!!)
:shrug:
Quite the juxtaposition. I'd say wait for a bit and see if there's another student overthrow of the government... then consider your options.
Well, AhmeGazuendheit's intention of enriching plutonium to the point of being weapon capable is pretty much a foregone conclusion based on his own words, or what I've understood them to be by the reports I've read. So I would say thats an eminent fact, or soon to be one.
Wrong. Thats an assumption, or opinion.
The real question is do we wait until he sets one off or do we try to prevent it?
Are you going to wait until someone shoots you on the street? Better get cracking, sparky. Tell me how it goes.
Would you feel more comfortable if you knew you would be the casualty that initiates a reactive response to something crazy like that?
(Ok guys! Iran just smoked Israel with a 50 kt nuke. Those poor bastards, NOW WE CAN GET EM BOYS!!!)
I’d rather open all routes of diplomacy to avoid it in the first place than to be wrong about an assumption about what someone MIGHT do.
I just looked at the clock before replying.. it's past 8 oc EST which means blacklash is drunk and high by this time and thus I'll not call him a retarded idiot.
You really suck at trying to sound scholarly and cordial. Stick with the bullshit. You’re a master of that.
Sean of the Thread
12-11-2006, 08:54 PM
Are you going to wait until someone shoots you on the street? Better get cracking, sparky. Tell me how it goes.
Yeah international diplomacy and national security are on par with that statement. Idiot.
Wrong. Thats an assumption, or opinion. Perhaps, since there's so much controversey as to what his words actually are after translation, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt as long as his actions dont contradict what he's saying.
Are you going to wait until someone shoots you on the street? Better get cracking, sparky. Tell me how it goes.
If the man is standing in the street with a gun, or telling me he's going to get a gun and come shoot me or go shooting people while speaking in my general direction, you bet your sweet patooty I'm going to do something. First action is to call the police, second is to go load my 30.30.
I’d rather open all routes of diplomacy to avoid it in the first place than to be wrong about an assumption about what someone MIGHT do. As would we all, its just that sometimes the only language some fanatics understand is force. I suppose we can send over a few colored light ships like in Close Encounters and see if he gets the message that way. Or just appoint a hot little number to go over and give him lots of hugs... I hear he likes the belly dancers. Much to his religious advisor's chagrin.
:whistle:
If the man is standing in the street with a gun, or telling me he's going to get a gun and come shoot me or go shooting people while speaking in my general direction, you bet your sweet patooty I'm going to do something. First action is to call the police, second is to go load my 30.30.
None of which has been done in this situation but I agree with your rational and I find it quite interesting you put calling the police before loading the weapon. I’d think thats exactly the way to approach this situation as well.
Also, just like on these boards, you know, guys get into saber rattling. We see it as childish in this context because we all know what it is. One-upmanship, bravado, talking shit, etc. When leaders of nations do it, yeah it becomes a bit more serious, but its still just talking smack until some fool crosses the line then all hell breaks loose and thats no fun on that scale.
None of which has been done in this situation but I agree with your rational and I find it quite interesting you put calling the police before loading the weapon. I’d think thats exactly the way to approach this situation as well.
Only because I can load my rifle while I'm talking on the phone. I'm a multi-tasking Texan. ;) And when I tell the 911 operator that I'm about to go out and nail that bastard to my front lawn, then rack a round into the chamber for effect, they'll be sure to send the cops over PDFQ. (But only if he steps foot onto my property whilest waiving said weapon of personal destruction (WPD)). No sense in being completely foolish, even with the generous self defense laws of the Great State of Texas to protect us (me).
Also, just like on these boards, you know, guys get into saber rattling. We see it as childish in this context because we all know what it is. One-upmanship, bravado, talking shit, etc. When leaders of nations do it, yeah it becomes a bit more serious, but its still just talking smack until some fool crosses the line then all hell breaks loose and thats no fun on that scale.
Who me? I couldnt talk shit even if I had a mouthful of it. Which according to some, is quite often (yea, I said it before anyone else could).
:whistle:
Tisket
12-12-2006, 05:34 AM
It's astonishing that this comment went unchallenged. :(
It's downright embarrassing that people are so quick to assume that, despite the words of Foreign Minister Mottaki, the purpose of this conference is in fact to deny the Holocaust and in some nebulous sense promote anti-Judaism.
Bible-boy, Holocaust denial is ALL about anti-semitism. If someone denies, regardless of the overwhelming evidence, that slavery ever existed in this country I am fairly confident racism would be a motivating factor.
Despite Mottaki's words, this conference's sole intention is to sow doubt. All you need do is convince someone that one small part of the whole is false and you have gained a foothold. Anyway, anyone advocating to ignore the issue is being very short-sighted imho.
edit: disclaimer: Usage of the word Bibleboy is done so in a mildly fond manner so stop crying already. Also, notice that I keep my posts to you very short. Everyone would be wise to do so as this gives you less opportunity to drown us in splinter quotes.
Why are Jews at the 'Holocaust denial' conference? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm)
Why are Jews attending a conference on the Holocaust in Tehran at which star guests include deniers of the genocide? Clue: they also want an end to the Israeli state.
A handful of Orthodox Jews have attended Iran's controversial conference questioning the Nazi genocide of the Jews - not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.
With their distinctive hats, beards and side locks, these men may, to the untrained eye, look like any other Orthodox believers in Jerusalem or New York. But the Jews who went to Tehran are different.
Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a group of a few thousand people which views Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine - as a "poison" threatening "true Jews".
WHO, WHAT, WHY?
A feature to the BBC News Magazine - aiming to answer some of the questions behind the headlines
A representative, UK-based Rabbi Aharon Cohen, told the conference he prayed "that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved".
In its place, Rabbi Cohen said, should be "a regime fully in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinians when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries".
Neturei Karta believes the very idea of an Israeli state goes against the Jewish religion.
The book of Jewish law or Talmud, they say, teaches that believers may not use human force to create a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah.
But how does Neturei Karta and other Orthodox Jews such as Austria-based Rabbi Moishe Ayre Friedman justify attending such a controversial conference?
Rabbi Friedman told BBC Radio Four's PM programme that he was not in Tehran to debate whether the Holocaust happened or not, but to look at its lessons.
He says the Holocaust was being used to legitimise the suffering of other peoples and he wanted to break what he called a taboo on discussing it.
The main thing, he argued, was not Jewish suffering in the past but the use of the Holocaust as a "tool of commercial, military and media power".
In what many other Jews would consider the height of naivety, he commended Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for wanting "a secured future for innocent Jewish people in Europe and elsewhere".
In his speech to the conference, Neturei Karta's Rabbi Cohen said there was no doubt about the Holocaust and it would be "a terrible affront to the memory of those who perished to belittle the guilt of the crime in any way".
However, he also argued that the genocide had been divine will. "The Zionists, with their secular pompous approach behave in complete opposition to this philosophy and dare to say 'Never Again'.
"They have the audacity to think that they can prevent the Almighty from repeating a Holocaust. This is heresy."
Neturei Karta have been condemned by other Orthodox Jews as an extreme fringe movement while the Tehran conference has been denounced by the Israeli parliament.
Stanley Burrell
12-12-2006, 01:37 PM
Iran is really lucky for having their current Ayatollah intact.
Twenty-two of my relatives being killed by The Tyrant does not make me wish Ahmadinejad would close his trap. I think that if he thinks that harping upon this matter is a way to gain defensive patronage, then by all means, turn a blind eye against everything and suffer its repercussions.
Again, for a plethora of reasons too elaborate for my brain to make my fingers type out right now, Iran is extremely lucky for the sway of its current Ayatollah being intact.
Stanley Burrell
12-12-2006, 01:39 PM
Those are Messianic Jews with a brain capacity of, "The Moschiach is coming!"
Times infinity, Backlash.
Latrinsorm
12-12-2006, 02:20 PM
Usage of the word Bibleboy is done so in a mildly fond manner so stop crying already.I thought it was. :heart:
Despite Mottaki's words, this conference's sole intention is to sow doubt.Apparently it isn't, given Backlash's timely article.
I feel that the main thrust of my post has been passed over (zing!), so to reiterate:
1) Where the fuck did that "average middle eastern citizen's dislike of Jews in general" come from?
2) Voltaire: "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." Is this comment more applicable to Iran's conference or Europe with regards to this issue? Where are all the "fascism" comments? (Should we care what some dead French guy said?)
I have no problem with Iran having a conference on the Nazi holocaust. I think they are mad to believe that Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, Poles, and others weren't gassed. But I believe in free speech. I am not sure how I would feel if I were Jewish but I wouldn’t kill a man strictly for his beliefs, no matter how heinous I may find them.
I am pleased to see they will be exploring other holocausts. I hope they discuss the Soviet and China’s holocaust.
Poor timing considering 16 miles of Holocaust archives are being made public.
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=22020&highlight=holocaust
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15791203/
It is interesting to note that some Orthodox Jews will be attending the conference, regardless of opinion of them.
Some Rogue
12-12-2006, 03:39 PM
Iran president says Israel's days are numbered (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061212/wl_nm/iran_holocaust_dc)
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Tuesday told delegates at an international conference questioning the Holocaust that Israel's days were numbered.
Ahmadinejad, who has sparked international outcry by referring to the killing of six million Jews in World War Two as a "myth" and calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map," launched another verbal attack on the Jewish state.
"Thanks to people's wishes and God's will the trend for the existence of the Zionist regime is downwards and this is what God has promised and what all nations want," he said.
"Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out," he added.
His words received warm applause from delegates at the Holocaust conference, who included ultra-Orthodox anti-Israel Jews and European and American writers who argue the Holocaust was either fabricated or exaggerated.
The Vatican, Germany and the European Commission added their voices on Tuesday to others -- such as the United States and Israel -- who have condemned the Tehran meeting.
Iran says it organized the conference to shed light on the reasons behind the formation of the state of Israel after World War Two and to allow researchers from countries where it is a crime to question the Holocaust to speak freely.
"Iran is your home and is the home of all freedom seekers of the world," Ahmadinejad said. "Here you can express your views and exchange opinions in a friendly, brotherly and free atmosphere."
Jesuit
12-12-2006, 03:50 PM
"Iran is your home and is the home of all freedom seekers of the world," Ahmadinejad said. "Here you can express your views and exchange opinions in a friendly, brotherly and free atmosphere."
That has to be the best line I've heard in a while. Tell that to Akbar Ganji.
Profile: Akbar Ganji
Journalist Akbar Ganji, who has just been released from jail, has become a symbol of resistance for Iran's reformists.
The state's most prominent political dissident continued his criticism of Iran's ruling clerics from behind bars.
His case has drawn international concern - and powerful allies.
US President George W Bush and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan are among those who had called for his release.
Media crackdown
The former Revolutionary Guard turned reformist was jailed for six years in 2001, over articles linking Iranian leaders with a series of political killings in 1998.
The Intelligence Ministry said "rogue agents" had carried out the killings, but Ganji maintained senior officials were behind them.
His imprisonment came amid a media crackdown by hardliners as the then reformist president Mohammad Khatami appeared to be threatening their power.
Ganji has continued to write in prison and his letters have been smuggled out and published on the internet.
In 2002 he wrote a Republican Manifesto which laid out plans for a democratic Iran.
Last year, Ganji went on hunger strike for about 40 days to demand his unconditional release, a call backed by the US, EU and international human rights organisations.
'Denied food'
The Iranian government denied the hunger strike, saying he had been taken to hospital for treatment to his knee.
His family have since expressed concerns about his health.
They say he has low blood pressure and weighs only 49 kg, after - they allege - being denied regular food by the jail authorities.
His wife had said the authorities had pledged never to release her husband unless he withdrew his accusations and apologised to Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4715439.stm
Stanley Burrell
12-12-2006, 04:00 PM
It is interesting to note that some Orthodox Jews will be attending the conference, regardless of opinion of them.
They are extremists by orthodoxy, not as Orthodox Jews.
This BBC article already proposes the assumption of the morals and theological judgement of what exactly Orthodox Judaism is because it uses the word in this particular internet article.
"Iran is your home and is the home of all freedom seekers of the world," Ahmadinejad said. "Here you can express your views and exchange opinions in a friendly, brotherly and free atmosphere."
I hope the Messianics follow that advice and find that new home waiting for them (et al President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, 12/12/2006, 03:39 PM, The GemStone IV Players' Corner Forum.)
I'm waiting to see what happens to the students who protested against Ahmgazeundheit's last speech.
Stanley Burrell
12-12-2006, 04:06 PM
I'm waiting to see what happens to the students who protested against Ahmgazeundheit's last speech.
I would have to say Quan ju protest-reminiscence, except even more obscure in bookkeeping.
Jesuit
12-12-2006, 04:11 PM
I'm waiting to see what happens to the students who protested against Ahmgazeundheit's last speech.
Me too. I definately admire people like those students and Ganji. They actually put it all on the line. In this country some punk will stand on the corner with a sign and not actually risk anything, then have the cojones to call themselves a rebel and an anarchist.
Stanley Burrell
12-12-2006, 04:16 PM
In this country some punk will stand on the corner with a sign and not actually risk anything, then have the cajones to call themselves a rebel and an anarchist.
They make sure to order their Starbucks' latés double-shot, what with the excessive hardcoreness :rolleyes:
Does laté have an accented e?
HarmNone
12-12-2006, 04:53 PM
It's "latte" and it doesn't have an accented "e". It's Italian, not French. The Italians prefer caffe latte (most will put an accent over the last "e" in caffe, but slanted the opposite way from the French accent. :)
Latrinsorm
12-12-2006, 05:16 PM
I'm waiting to see what happens to the students who protested against Ahmgazeundheit's last speech.I'm guessing he learned his lesson from the shah: machine-gunning students isn't a surefire way to quell a rebellion.
Skirmisher
12-12-2006, 05:17 PM
I'm waiting to see what happens to the students who protested against Ahmgazeundheit's last speech.
I also.
Hope they and their families are alright.
Tisket
12-13-2006, 05:44 AM
1) Where the fuck did that "average middle eastern citizen's dislike of Jews in general" come from?
I understand that your weak debate style includes making vague queries and comments in the hope that a responder will make assumptions that you can then use to your advantage. This is clear from the bulk of your posts in this forum. And it's very effective in drawing people in and satisfying your obvious need for contention. Unfortunately, this does not make you a great debater, it makes you a pedestrian one.
I am not going to make assumptions for you. Please explain what part of my statement you did not understand or why you disagree. I know clear communication is not conducive to your style of posting but if you could please be straightforward it would be appreciated. I can guess but I won't do your work for you.
Please keep in mind that the preceding and the following are said in a pleasant, conversational, and amused frame of mind...
Fucker. Hate you for disrupting my plan to only respond to you in monosyllabic grunts. Get bent.
P.S. Am I the only one that is never fully sure on what side of a debate SB is on when he posts? I marvel at his ability to make the simplest concepts convoluted <3
Fucker. Hate you for disrupting my plan to only respond to you in monosyllabic grunts. Get bent.
:rofl:
P.S. Am I the only one that is never fully sure on what side of a debate SB is on when he posts? I marvel at his ability to make the simplest concepts convoluted <3
SB is an enigma.
I understand that your weak debate style...
Woah. Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. Or maybe its the right side.
They are extremists by orthodoxy, not as Orthodox Jews.
So they are Orthodox Jews who are extremists? Extremists in what way?
Tsa`ah
12-13-2006, 01:34 PM
So they are Orthodox Jews who are extremists? Extremists in what way?
Pretty much in the way of every other religious extremest out there sans the killing of unsuspecting civilians via the self detonating of c4 in their ass.
Pretty much in the way of every other religious extremest out there sans the killing of unsuspecting civilians via the self detonating of c4 in their ass.
Every group of extremists have ideas, beliefs, or actions that make them extremists. Born again Christians believe that other sects of Christianity won't go to heaven. Some of them have a literal belief in the Bible. They believe the Bible is a perfect document with no flaws, and the most true expression of God's word. They are obsessed with Revelations practically ignoring Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Some Christians around the world have taken a violent stand, like the Lord's army in Uganda or Christian terrorist groups in India or the IRA and UVF in Ireland.
I was wondering what beliefs, ideas, or actions these Orthodox Jews have that make them extremists?
Latrinsorm
12-13-2006, 03:17 PM
Please explain what part of my statement you did not understand or why you disagree. I'm sorry, bigoted remarks are one of my "buttons". I'd like to know on what grounds you have drawn the conclusion that the average Middle Eastern citizen has a dislike for Jews in general. Though each word would be monosyllabic, I encourage you to refrain from the response "they just are".
Also, I'm glad you balanced out the friendly post from before, I was getting worried you had a fever. :)
Finally, I wave my hand dismissively at your allegations about my "debate style" and "need for contention" and smile knowingly.
To xtc, I think the correct term for these Jews is ultra-Orthodox to signify the difference between them and Orthodox Jews. The main things are they find the idea of a secular nation (for instance, Israel) philosophically untenable and in many ways try to return to a pre-modern way of doing things.
Parkbandit
12-13-2006, 03:17 PM
Yea.. because believing that only born again Christians will go to heaven is the same as strapping a bomb to yourself and then exploding a bunch of civilians.
If I remember correctly, those ULtra-Othodox jews are not such a small minority. At least, and correct me if I’m wrong, not small enough of a minority to be considered “fringe?”
Latrinsorm
12-13-2006, 03:32 PM
Ultra-Orthodox Jews are a minority in Judaism, and like pretty much any religious category you can think of, they don't even all agree with each other. That said, they do wield power in the government disproportional to their relative size due to Israel's parliamentary system of government, kind of like the smaller parties in Canada.
Yea.. because believing that only born again Christians will go to heaven is the same as strapping a bomb to yourself and then exploding a bunch of civilians.
I was giving example of extremism to illicit a response, as to what exactly make this group of Ultra Orthodox Jews, extremists.
I guess you missed this part of my post:
"Some Christians around the world have taken a violent stand, like the Lord's army in Uganda or Christian terrorist groups in India or the IRA and UVF in Ireland"
but that wasn't the purpose of my post.
Is it members of Haredi that will be attending this conference in Iran?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism
Tisket
12-13-2006, 05:31 PM
I'm sorry, bigoted remarks are one of my "buttons". I'd like to know on what grounds you have drawn the conclusion that the average Middle Eastern citizen has a dislike for Jews in general.
Alright, lets ignore for the moment the love showered on the Jewish people by other Arab nations. So I won't bring up the the historical patterns of Jewish exodus and forcible expulsion from Arabic-speaking countries in the middle east, including Yemen, Libya, Syria, Egypt, Algeria and Jordan.
No, lets keep the argument managable and concentrate instead on Iran since that is the conference site. I suppose one could argue that Iran has the largest Jewish population in the Arab world. Yes, a whopping twenty five thousand. Out of a total population of sixty nine MILLION. Considering the Jewish population of Iran fifty years ago was 100,000 they are making progress it seems.
You're right, those wacky Iranians really love their Jewish peoples. I mean look at the strict control they exercise over Jewish educational institutions...in those few schools that do exist Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslims. The curriculum is Islamic. Saturday is no longer officially recognized as the Jewish sabbath, Jewish students being forced to attend school on that day. The Jews are so beloved in Iran that offically sanctioned discrimination in employment, public accomodations and education are allowed. If one member of a Jewish family converts to Islam he can inherit all the family property. I won't even go into how Jews are under constant suspicion of cooperating with Zionists which can and has led to Jewish deaths in that country recently.
Feel the love.
A quote from a Jew living in Iran: "Whatever they say abroad is lies - we are comfortable in Iran - if you're not political and don't bother them then they won't bother you."
Lovely.
Latrinsorm
12-13-2006, 05:44 PM
I see a lot of references to the government and its policies. I am under no illusions that this particular government is not a fan of Judaism.
I am at the same time aware that Muslims have a long history of tolerating morally subpar political regimes (e.g. the Abbasid caliphate), even when said regimes take moral stands that are in direct contradiction to Islam. Given the absolute lack of anti-Judaism in the Koran, where do you draw this assessment of "the average middle eastern citizen"?
Tisket
12-13-2006, 06:04 PM
Given the absolute lack of anti-Judaism in the Koran, where do you draw this assessment of "the average middle eastern citizen"?
Yes...we've seen how Christians ALWAYS follow the espoused tenets of the Bible. "Love thy neighbor" has worked out especially well. Good point...
You are such a nitpicker. Once again managing to lose the point of a discussion in a technicality. Good job.
Latrinsorm
12-13-2006, 06:10 PM
No, the point of the discussion you and I are having was and still is what the "average middle eastern citizen" thinks. We know the citizens don't always follow the government, we know the religion doesn't command hatred and that people don't always follow the religion anyway. Therefore, we cannot possibly rationally deduce that people in the Middle East, on average, have a hatred for Jewish people.
That's not to say that it's impossible to know how the "average middle eastern citizen" feels, only that we have to actually ask them about it instead of just supposing. If you have (whether personally or by proxy by obtaining a study), then by all means show us your data.
You are such a nitpicker.I take accusations of bigotry seriously. How can you not?
Tisket
12-13-2006, 06:15 PM
Therefore, we cannot possibly rationally deduce that people in the Middle East, on average, have a hatred for Jewish people.
How can you possibly deduce that "dislike in general" equates to hatred?
Tisket
12-13-2006, 06:18 PM
I take accusations of bigotry seriously. How can you not?
I take actual bigotry (as in that experienced by Jews in the middle east) more seriously.
Latrinsorm
12-13-2006, 06:44 PM
I have no problem with you taking issue with the government, just don't shit on everyone (or "the average") over there unless you've got a reason to. It's irresponsible and beneath you like a pile of runny poo.
Parkbandit
12-13-2006, 07:23 PM
I was giving example of extremism to illicit a response, as to what exactly make this group of Ultra Orthodox Jews, extremists.
I guess you missed this part of my post:
"Some Christians around the world have taken a violent stand, like the Lord's army in Uganda or Christian terrorist groups in India or the IRA and UVF in Ireland"
but that wasn't the purpose of my post.
Comparing extremist christians and extremist muslims is a joke. That was the purpose of my post.
Going to have to agree with Latrin on this one. The blanket statement of “average middle eastern citizen's dislike of Jews in general” is too broad.
When I was in Israel sure, there were certain parts of Jerusalem you would not want to go through that were heavily Palestinian, but the rest of the country while primarily Israeli had a mix of all kinds of arabs. One important distinction needs to be made: there are Jews and there are Israelis. Some Jews are Israelis, but some Israelis are not jews. There are arab Israelis, Druze, Palestinians... and there are jews in other countries in the region. In fact, all over the world. I doubt any middle-easterner if they dislike jews gives a flip about Brooklyn, for example.
Tisket
12-13-2006, 07:59 PM
One important distinction needs to be made: there are Jews and there are Israelis. Some Jews are Israelis, but some Israelis are not jews. There are arab Israelis, Druze, Palestinians... and there are jews in other countries in the region.
As long as they haven't renounced their faith, all Jews worldwide automatically become Israeli citizens under the terms of the Law of Return.
As long as they haven't renounced their faith, all Jews worldwide automatically become Israeli citizens under the terms of the Law of Return.
This is true. But you also need to think of Judaism in terms of a tradition rather than a religion. There are plenty of secular jews out there that may follow traditions, but not out of religious reasons. Technically if your mother was jewish, you are jewish and can move to Israel. You don’t need to go to synagog every Saturday, wear a yalmaka, or refrain from pork to get in either.
I also wanted to add that there are some middle east countries who have little or no problem with Israel. Yemen, Qatar, Dubai, Jordan...
I’m not jewish by the way. This is just what I’ve seen first hand.
Comparing extremist christians and extremist muslims is a joke.
True, Christians have killed more people on the whole.
That was the purpose of my post.
Which wasn't the purpose of my post.
Parkbandit
12-14-2006, 05:14 PM
OMG! Christians started the Crusades.. so let's talk about that when discussing Muslim extremists today because that would be a fair comparison!!!
This is xtc.
Sean of the Thread
12-14-2006, 05:33 PM
What a joke. I can only hope people are just being antagonistic and don't really believe half of the shit they say.
Parkbandit
12-14-2006, 07:06 PM
What a joke. I can only hope people are just being antagonistic and don't really believe half of the shit they say.
Your hope is wasted on the ignorant.
OMG! Christians started the Crusades.. so let's talk about that when discussing Muslim extremists today because that would be a fair comparison!!!
This is xtc.
It is you who started the comparison. I was trying to find out what made these Orthodox Jews extremists.
I am simpy quoting fact which I know annoys you. Fact is anathema to any of your "reasoning" or arguments.
Parkbandit
12-15-2006, 02:33 PM
It is you who started the comparison. I was trying to find out what made these Orthodox Jews extremists.
Actually.. you did. I had 1 post prior to the below post by you. My post said something along the lines of Mel Gibson being the key note speaker. The a few pages later.. with none of my posts in the middle, you post this:
Every group of extremists have ideas, beliefs, or actions that make them extremists. Born again Christians believe that other sects of Christianity won't go to heaven. Some of them have a literal belief in the Bible. They believe the Bible is a perfect document with no flaws, and the most true expression of God's word. They are obsessed with Revelations practically ignoring Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Some Christians around the world have taken a violent stand, like the Lord's army in Uganda or Christian terrorist groups in India or the IRA and UVF in Ireland.
I was wondering what beliefs, ideas, or actions these Orthodox Jews have that make them extremists?
Seems to me you brought up the comparison.. saying that current day Christians can be equally extreme as the muslims beheading people, strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up innocent people and slamming jets into buildings.
I called you out for being a fucking dipshit after that.
I am simpy quoting fact which I know annoys you. Fact is anathema to any of your "reasoning" or arguments.
You haven't quoted a single fact here.. you've expressed your warped opinion and nothing more.
Try again foolish one.
Latrinsorm
12-15-2006, 04:23 PM
Seems to me you brought up the comparison.. saying that current day Christians can be equally extreme as the muslims beheading people, strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up innocent people and slamming jets into buildings.Extreme and violent aren't synonyms. Extreme just means considerable deviation from the mainstream. There are certainly Christians who get Christianity as wrong as those who blow up innocent people get Islam wrong.
Parkbandit
12-15-2006, 04:43 PM
Extreme and violent aren't synonyms. Extreme just means considerable deviation from the mainstream. There are certainly Christians who get Christianity as wrong as those who blow up innocent people get Islam wrong.
Comparing the two in today's modern world, makes you as stupid as Rosie O'Donnell.
Grats.
Daniel
12-15-2006, 05:13 PM
I think it would be a generally fair statement that about everyone generally dislikes the Jews, except the jews.
Tisket
12-15-2006, 07:27 PM
I have no problem with you taking issue with the government, just don't shit on everyone (or "the average") over there unless you've got a reason to. It's irresponsible and beneath you like a pile of runny poo.
Somehow missed this post.
You're one of those unfortunate morons that thinks that having a good vocabulary also gives you insight into every subject. It's too bad that you prove this wrong in almost every instance.
And while I admire your phenomenal ability to split hairs, I stand by my original statement.
Latrinsorm
12-15-2006, 10:13 PM
I stand by my original statement.Then you'll be happy to provide some sort of proof for it beyond wild conjecture and speculation.
I'm overly picky about a lot of things, but bigotry just isn't one of them.
Parkbandit
12-16-2006, 01:17 AM
I think it would be a generally fair statement that about everyone generally dislikes the Jews, except the jews.
Either I'm drunk.. or you just said everyone hates the jews except the jews?
Huh?
I hope I am misreading this statement by you Daniel.. or that could very well be THE most ignorant thing you've ever posted on these boards.
Grats Mel Gibson wannabe
Tsa`ah
12-16-2006, 01:47 AM
This is true. But you also need to think of Judaism in terms of a tradition rather than a religion. There are plenty of secular jews out there that may follow traditions, but not out of religious reasons. Technically if your mother was jewish, you are jewish and can move to Israel. You don’t need to go to synagog every Saturday, wear a yalmaka, or refrain from pork to get in either.
I'm sorry, but you can't take a sweater, unweave it, and still call it a sweater. Judaism is tradition and religion, they are so intermeshed that they are one in the same. Technicalities do not get you automatic Israeli citizenship. Your mother or father being a Jew will get your foot in the door, but it doesn't get you the club card ... it's more involved than that.
I also wanted to add that there are some middle east countries who have little or no problem with Israel. Yemen, Qatar, Dubai, Jordan...
Ya, because all the crap that fills their air waves screams "we have no problem with Israel". I would say their unwillingness to take a stand at what is taught in their schools and broadcast over the air waves puts them into the same boat, or similar boat as Iran, Saudi Arabia and about every other nation in the region.
I’m not jewish by the way. This is just what I’ve seen first hand.
This is what you observed but did not understand.
I'm sorry, but you can't take a sweater, unweave it, and still call it a sweater. Judaism is tradition and religion, they are so intermeshed that they are one in the same. Technicalities do not get you automatic Israeli citizenship. Your mother or father being a Jew will get your foot in the door, but it doesn't get you the club card ... it's more involved than that.
The law of Sharia (I think) means you are a citizen. Birthright, nothing more. If I am wrong I am wrong, you would know better.
Ya, because all the crap that fills their air waves screams "we have no problem with Israel". I would say their unwillingness to take a stand at what is taught in their schools and broadcast over the air waves puts them into the same boat, or similar boat as Iran, Saudi Arabia and about every other nation in the region.
And Israelis don’t enjoy a good arab coffee with cardamon? Look, I know there are anti “Zionist” things out there. My whole point was to say that most middle eastern people hate Jews is inaccurate. Zionists? Maybe. But not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are Zionists.
This is what you observed but did not understand.
Fair enough. I am not a jew. But I have been to Isreal, and it was a pretty fucking cool place to visit.
Tisket
12-16-2006, 05:50 AM
Either I'm drunk.. or you just said everyone hates the jews except the jews?
Huh?
I hope I am misreading this statement by you Daniel.. or that could very well be THE most ignorant thing you've ever posted on these boards.
Grats Mel Gibson wannabe
lol to be fair I think he was just bored and decided to give the hornets nest a little poke. Things have been quiet after all...
Daniel
12-16-2006, 11:23 AM
Either I'm drunk.. or you just said everyone hates the jews except the jews?
Huh?
I hope I am misreading this statement by you Daniel.. or that could very well be THE most ignorant thing you've ever posted on these boards.
Grats Mel Gibson wannabe
I was completely serious too.
Tisket
12-16-2006, 01:02 PM
I was completely serious too.
I stand corrected. Sadly.
P.S. Nice to see Latrinsorm come running in defense of the Jews...oh wait...never mind.
Latrinsorm
12-16-2006, 02:19 PM
The law of Sharia (I think) means you are a citizen. Birthright, nothing more. If I am wrong I am wrong, you would know better.Sharia is Islamic law. There is a (contested) law that guarantees Israeli citizenship for any Jew who applies. Don't sell yourself short, btw, Tsa`ah being Jewish doesn't make him the expert on all things Israeli and Judaic anymore than my being Christian makes everything I say regarding the Holy Roman Empire 100% right.
Nice to see Latrinsorm come running in defense of the Jews:)
oh wait:O
never mind:(
.:|
Tisket
12-16-2006, 02:51 PM
Hypocritical retard.
Daniel
12-16-2006, 03:05 PM
lol
Latrinsorm
12-16-2006, 04:23 PM
It couldn't be that I also thought Daniel was being facetious. No. Of course not.
Tisket, you know I like you, but this thread has not been a good showing for you. I'm starting to think that the bizarre insistence you have on not providing any evidence for your denigrilicious claims was intended to be a really, really circuitous jab at Holocaust deniers, but the level of attachment you've displayed makes me unsure.
Tsa`ah
12-16-2006, 04:40 PM
The law of Sharia (I think) means you are a citizen. Birthright, nothing more. If I am wrong I am wrong, you would know better.
The Law of return allows for those of Jewish descent (by 2 generations normally ... since amended in 1970) to "make" Aliyah ... for lack of a better way to say it in english.
And Israelis don’t enjoy a good arab coffee with cardamon? Look, I know there are anti “Zionist” things out there. My whole point was to say that most middle eastern people hate Jews is inaccurate. Zionists? Maybe. But not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are Zionists.
I won't disagree with it ... I will say that most of those who hate Jews, Israel, and all things similar don't really know why they do. It is a view that has saturated those societies for the better part of a century now.
There is a (contested) law that guarantees Israeli citizenship for any Jew who applies. Don't sell yourself short, btw, Tsa`ah being Jewish doesn't make him the expert on all things Israeli and Judaic anymore than my being Christian makes everything I say regarding the Holy Roman Empire 100% right.:):O:(:|
Such a law does not exist. In fact, current Israeli immigration laws are now under scrutiny again for being too lax.
As I said, and will say again, being a Jew or descendant of a Jew only gets your foot in the door, it doesn't get you the club card. One still has to go through the process.
One has to renounce prior citizenship and nationality.
One has to reside within Israel for 3 out of 5 years after renouncing foreign ties.
One has to reside within Israel legally ... meaning no sneaking in and then trying to become a citizen.
One also has to provide proof that they have permanently settled or intend to settle within Israel.
No where have I ever stated that my heritage makes me an expert. I fucking read and comprehend ... I suggest you learn to do the same.
Tisket
12-16-2006, 04:58 PM
It couldn't be that I also thought Daniel was being facetious. No. Of course not.
Tisket, you know I like you, but this thread has not been a good showing for you. I'm starting to think that the bizarre insistence you have on not providing any evidence for your denigrilicious claims was intended to be a really, really circuitous jab at Holocaust deniers, but the level of attachment you've displayed makes me unsure.
You need to go back and reread this thread. You've obviously got a case of selective memory...
Tisket
12-16-2006, 05:01 PM
P.S. denigrilicious isn't a word.
Latrinsorm
12-16-2006, 05:13 PM
No where have I ever stated that my heritage makes me an expert.Easy, tiger, I was addressing how Backlash was balancing the situation. Everyone isn't always out to get you, honest.
P.S. denigrilicious isn't a word.IIIII'M MEEEELLLTING!! MELLLLTING!!!!
You need to go back and reread this thread. You've obviously got a case of selective memory...Remember this part?
I understand that your weak debate style includes making vague queries and comments in the hope that a responder will make assumptions that you can then use to your advantage.The funny thing is that when I repeated the (direct) query I made, you refused to in any way back up your assertion, leading me to the inevitable conclusion that your statement was in truth an assumption(!). My guess is you feel citing the activities of the government adequately describes the feelings of the people (if it's not that switcheroo thing I talked about earlier), but that's really quite preposterous as you're well aware.
Tisket
12-16-2006, 05:44 PM
Remember this part?The funny thing is that when I repeated the (direct) query I made, you refused to in any way back up your assertion, leading me to the inevitable conclusion that your statement was in truth an assumption(!). My guess is you feel citing the activities of the government adequately describes the feelings of the people (if it's not that switcheroo thing I talked about earlier), but that's really quite preposterous as you're well aware.
Tell me, is it latent anti-Semitism that allows you to ignore a blatantly bigoted post about Jews (regardless of the posters intent) in favor of misdirection and faux cleverness?
Anti-Semitism is not just accepted and practiced in the Arab Middle East, it's become a cultural norm. Research it. I won't do it for you.
Latrinsorm
12-16-2006, 06:44 PM
I didn't tear into Weedmage Princess for this aim log:
drew cantu: I just wanted to help people.
Bogus Princess: GO HELP YOURSELF SLIT YOUR WRISTS.
because I recognized it was just a (very amusing!) joke from Tayre. The whole point of a joke is that it's not serious, you see?
Anti-Semitism is not just accepted and practiced in the Arab Middle East, it's become a cultural norm. Research it. I won't do it for you.That's pretty convenient.
Hey, white people are genetically inferior to black people. Research it. I won't do it for you. Armenians are, on average, evil. Research it. I won't do it for you. The average Finn dislikes Mexicans. Research it. I won't do it for you.
:\
Anyway, I'm glad you're at least somewhat clarifying your clumsily broad generalization by limiting your accusation to "the Arab Middle East". Baby steps, baby steps.
Tisket
12-16-2006, 06:54 PM
I didn't tear into Weedmage Princess for this aim log:
drew cantu: I just wanted to help people.
Bogus Princess: GO HELP YOURSELF SLIT YOUR WRISTS.
because I recognized it was just a (very amusing!) joke from Tayre. The whole point of a joke is that it's not serious, you see?That's pretty convenient.
How convenient for you to ignore:
I was completely serious too.
Daniel
12-16-2006, 06:55 PM
Obviously.
Tisket
12-16-2006, 06:55 PM
See the problem with people like you. Latrinsorm, is that you expect everyone to be accountable to a different set of standards than to which you hold yourself accountable.
Daniel
12-16-2006, 06:59 PM
Tisket= Weedmage?
Tisket
12-16-2006, 07:02 PM
Tisket= Weedmage?
lmao...
Latrinsorm
12-16-2006, 07:02 PM
How convenient for you to ignore:How convenient for you to ignore:
Every post I've made so far. :(
Tisket= Weedmage?No, just an example that sprung to mind.
Tisket
12-16-2006, 07:05 PM
How convenient for you to ignore:
Every post I've made so far. :(No, just an example that sprung to mind.
I'm not a selective reader like yourself.
Daniel
12-16-2006, 07:06 PM
Weedmage hasn't been around for YEARs. heh.
Parkbandit
12-16-2006, 10:16 PM
I was completely serious too.
Yea.. I had a couple drinks and read your post. I had hoped you were kidding around, but it didn't read like you were.
Glad to see you were joking around.
Latrinsorm
12-18-2006, 02:37 PM
latent anti-SemitismThis is an odd thing to say, the more I think about it. To review, the statement that started this chat: "the average middle eastern citizen's dislike of Jews". The statement prompted me to say "hey don't be a jerk to Middle Eastern people", more or less. Please notice how the disliker, not the dislikee, is the libelled party.
Later, Daniel said "I think it would be a generally fair statement that about everyone generally dislikes the Jews, except the jews.", which I didn't respond to. What seems odd about Tisket's accusation is that this statement, like the first one, paints "everyone" in a bad light, not "the Jews". Thus, the accurate (so to speak) accusation would be anti-everyone, not anti-Semite.
I must again note that I'm getting the feeling this is an elaborate, Sophist-esque teaching mechanism being used by Tisket.
Actually.. you did. I had 1 post prior to the below post by you. My post said something along the lines of Mel Gibson being the key note speaker. The a few pages later.. with none of my posts in the middle, you post this:
Originally Posted by xtc
Every group of extremists have ideas, beliefs, or actions that make them extremists. Born again Christians believe that other sects of Christianity won't go to heaven. Some of them have a literal belief in the Bible. They believe the Bible is a perfect document with no flaws, and the most true expression of God's word. They are obsessed with Revelations practically ignoring Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Some Christians around the world have taken a violent stand, like the Lord's army in Uganda or Christian terrorist groups in India or the IRA and UVF in Ireland.
My original post had nothing to do with your posts.
Seems to me you brought up the comparison.. saying that current day Christians can be equally extreme as the muslims beheading people, strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up innocent people and slamming jets into buildings.
Amazing you can re-post my post without reading it. At no point did I mention Muslims or make a comparison to Muslims. I posted that all religions have extremists and posted some traits of Christian extremists. It was in an attempt to find out what traits these Haredi or "Ultra Orthodox Jews" (I mean no offence to Hardei saying this) had that made them extremists.
I was wondering what beliefs, ideas, or actions these Orthodox Jews have that make them extremists?
I called you out for being a fucking dipshit after that.
I think your inability to read and derailing this thread proves you are the dipshit here.
You haven't quoted a single fact here.. you've expressed your warped opinion and nothing more.
Try again foolish one.
I think it is you who needs to try again. In my later post, after your post, I said Christianity had killed more people than Islam, that is fact.
Sean of the Thread
12-18-2006, 02:46 PM
Let's get back on topic.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/final.jpg
Let's get back on topic.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/Japgross/final.jpg
Quote from the article.
""The aim of this conference is not to deny or confirm the Holocaust," Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said in a welcome address. "Its main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust."
Sean of the Thread
12-18-2006, 03:08 PM
Yeaah. Riiiight.
TheEschaton
12-18-2006, 03:13 PM
To have a conference for people who "can't express their views openly in Europe", when the accepted view in Europe is "The Holocaust happened", that naturally means they're there to state their view that A) The Holocaust didn't happen, or B) something equally heinous that is part of the "European view" of the Holocaust.
It's logic. We can't state our beliefs in Europe because they believe B. It makes logical sense that we believe something which is ~B, in the Venn diagram sense of ~B.
-TheE-
To have a conference for people who "can't express their views openly in Europe", when the accepted view in Europe is "The Holocaust happened", that naturally means they're there to state their view that A) The Holocaust didn't happen, or B) something equally heinous that is part of the "European view" of the Holocaust.
It's logic. We can't state our beliefs in Europe because they believe B. It makes logical sense that we believe something which is ~B, in the Venn diagram sense of ~B.
-TheE-
Having a forum for open discussion isn't the same as taking a position. You can host a forum for discussion in which people can voice a view. That doesn't mean that the aim of the conference is to support the view of only the one view.
TheEschaton
12-18-2006, 03:21 PM
Yeah, it's to state the views which aren't B, B in this case being "The Holocaust killed 10 million people, and it was heinous".
-TheE-
Tell me, is it latent anti-Semitism that allows you to ignore a blatantly bigoted post about Jews (regardless of the posters intent) in favor of misdirection and faux cleverness?
Anti-Semitism is not just accepted and practiced in the Arab Middle East, it's become a cultural norm. Research it. I won't do it for you.
This is patently false. There isn't a systemic policy of anti-semitism in the Middle East. You acuse Latrinsorm of ignoring blatant bigotry against Jews, and then go on to lump all the people in the Middle East into one category, labelling it a cultural norm, what hypocrisy.
There are people in the Middle East that are anti-semetic. There are many who are not. I know Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqis. The opinions are as varied as the people. Some are anti-semetic, some are not. Opposing the actions of Israel does not make someone anti-semetic. Some of my Arab friends are ardent supporters of Israel, especially my Lebanese friends.
Yeah, it's to state the views which aren't B, B in this case being "The Holocaust killed 10 million people, and it was heinous".
-TheE-
In parts of Europe it is illegal to say the Holocaust didn't happen. You can't have a discussion about a topic unless you can discuss all views, as heinous as those views may be. This conference allows all views to be discussed which is different from having a conference that discusses only the view that the Holocaust didn't happen.
TheEschaton
12-18-2006, 03:29 PM
On the issue of latent anti-Semiticism in the Middle East. I don't think it's particularly because they're Jews. I think it's because they carved out their own country in the middle of other people's land. Those other people are now pissed.
Imagine if, say, Africa decided the Hottentot's deserved a homeland for whatever reason, and made it...mmm, England. And then all the Hottentots moved there. And Africa always supported them over the English. Do you think the English would be pissed?
But the difference is - the Israelis have the support of the most powerful countries in the world. Not Africa.
-TheE-
For those wanting some more reading on the subject.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
Latrinsorm
12-18-2006, 03:42 PM
I think it's because they carved out their own country in the middle of other people's land. Those other people are now pissed.I think it's because we, the imperial powers, carved out the country. That's why it's important to distinguish between anti-colonialism, anti-Zionism, and anti-Semitism.
For those wanting some more reading on the subject.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
Thanks, I have seen some of the original documents that Jews had to carry in Germany that identify them as Jews. Seeing an original swasitka made shudders go up my spine. It looked a little different from the one in the movies.
I think it's because we, the imperial powers, carved out the country. That's why it's important to distinguish between anti-colonialism, anti-Zionism, and anti-Semitism.
Furthering Latrin's statement:
Following World War II, the British withdrew from their mandate of Palestine, and the UN partitioned the area into Arab and Jewish states, an arrangement rejected by the Arabs. Subsequently, the Israelis defeated the Arabs in a series of wars without ending the deep tensions between the two sides. The territories occupied by Israel since the 1967 war are not included in the Israel country profile, unless otherwise noted. On 25 April 1982, Israel withdrew from the Sinai pursuant to the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty...
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
ITS ALL THE UN'S FAULT!!!
Furthering Latrin's statement:
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
ITS ALL THE UN'S FAULT!!!
...and the League of Nations and the Brits. The McMahon Agreement promised Palestine to the Arabs, the Balfour Declaration promised it to the Jews.
Tisket
12-18-2006, 06:17 PM
This is an odd thing to say, the more I think about it. To review, the statement that started this chat: "the average middle eastern citizen's dislike of Jews". The statement prompted me to say "hey don't be a jerk to Middle Eastern people", more or less. Please notice how the disliker, not the dislikee, is the libelled party.
Later, Daniel said "I think it would be a generally fair statement that about everyone generally dislikes the Jews, except the jews.", which I didn't respond to. What seems odd about Tisket's accusation is that this statement, like the first one, paints "everyone" in a bad light, not "the Jews". Thus, the accurate (so to speak) accusation would be anti-everyone, not anti-Semite.
I must again note that I'm getting the feeling this is an elaborate, Sophist-esque teaching mechanism being used by Tisket.
I'd respond if I could figure out what is your question...
Latrinsorm
12-18-2006, 11:13 PM
What I don't get is how you derive anti-Semitism from my behavior.
Skirmisher
12-19-2006, 12:18 AM
In parts of Europe it is illegal to say the Holocaust didn't happen. You can't have a discussion about a topic unless you can discuss all views, as heinous as those views may be. This conference allows all views to be discussed which is different from having a conference that discusses only the view that the Holocaust didn't happen.
There may be some nutjobs who still asserts that Apollo pulls the sun across the sky every day but we would never expect them to be granted a speaking presentation in a serious convention of astronomers
No serious historian would say that anyone "needs" to debate the reality of the holocaust.
Be real and call that convention for what it is if you insist on having it, but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.
Latrinsorm
12-19-2006, 12:26 AM
The point isn't that it's up in the air whether the Holocaust happened or not. The point is that we (us and those Europe fellows) are supposed to be the freedom guys. The torch-carriers, so to speak. Rational speech isn't what's supposed to be protected, pleasant speech isn't what's supposed to be protected, it's supposed to be all speech (until this conflicts with higher rights, naturally).
If a convention of historians wants to say "listen, we're working here, take a hike" there's no problem. When a country says "say something we don't want you to and you'll be arrested/deported" then there's a problem, however asinine the prohibited speech is.
I'm pretty sure you're asserting that there's an ulterior motive of some kind here, Skirm, would you mind explicitly stating what you think it is?
Tisket
12-19-2006, 05:15 AM
What I don't get is how you derive anti-Semitism from my behavior.
Personal opinion from this and other threads that you've posted in. Nothing more. Quit whining already.
What's rather odd is that I agree that Holocaust denial should not be a crime anywhere. I've stated before that there should be no such thing as a "thought crime" : http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=17237 . Criminalizing opinions, no matter how misguided, just gives those ideas further weight.
However, if you try to tell me that Holocaust denial is NOT anti-Semitism at it's finest then you are one seriously deluded dude. And a conference specifically devoted to this denial should never be dismissed or ignored.
ElanthianSiren
12-19-2006, 12:09 PM
Wouldn't holocaust denial be anti-humanism? Hitler killed much more than jews: the disabled, the sick, the poor, the gypsies, occultists. The list was pretty much anyone he felt was undesirable. As humans, in general, all have 'undesirable' qualities, we can probably conclude that the "list" contained something that probably pertained to most people on this planet. Eg; I'm blonde with blue eyes, but I have a chronic illness, and they killed people for that.
Might the law in Germany have been constructed to dispatch any individuals still carrying sympathy toward Hitler et al after ww2? I mean, as such, we can say it's probably an outdated law now, but if you look at the context of when it was written, it doesn't seem that much different than the general procedures taken in countries after a war. McCarthyism comes to mind as a VERY exaggerated example.
-M
Tisket
12-19-2006, 04:21 PM
Wouldn't holocaust denial be anti-humanism? Hitler killed much more than jews: the disabled, the sick, the poor, the gypsies, occultists.
I agree he committed crimes against humanity and that you have a valid point. However, the vast bulk of the people killed just happened to be Jewish. Hardly coincidental.
Xaerve
12-19-2006, 05:19 PM
McCarthyism comes to mind as a VERY exaggerated example.
-M
To me this is McCarthyism all over again--
In an interview, Gingrich said it is possible to distinguish between terrorists and others when looking to fight threatening expression. "If you give me any signal in the age of terrorism that you're a terrorist, I'd say the burden of proof was on you," Gingrich said. Gingrich, who has said he plans to decide whether to run for President in September, struck campaign-esque hemes last night.
My stance on Holocaust Denial is that anyone should be able to say anything they want to say so long as they are not hindering the property rights (physical, freedom of expression, etc.) of others. If the Holocaust was a real event (which it obviously was), then those individuals who are going against Holocaust denial should have no problem making the individuals debating it look like fools. Limiting freedom of expression is not the answer. (JS Mill)
Latrinsorm
12-19-2006, 07:12 PM
I've stated before that there should be no such thing as a "thought crime"Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but don't you say in the first post of that thread that "Personally I think the US needs a similar law regarding people who disbelieve the moon landing..."?
Personal opinion from this and other threads that you've posted in. Nothing more.Oh, ok. Your opinion is factually incorrect and entirely baseless. You could not possibly be more wrong in your assertion.
Tisket
12-19-2006, 07:17 PM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but don't you say in the first post of that thread that "Personally I think the US needs a similar law regarding people who disbelieve the moon landing..."?
You have a real hardon to argue with me...
Apparently you didn't read my other posts in that thread. You are truly a moron if you believe I was doing anything other than joking about the moon landing.
You remind me of a little boy throwing a tantrum now. What a baby.
Latrinsorm
12-19-2006, 07:28 PM
You remind me of a little boy throwing a tantrum now. What a baby.Asking a question and informing you of your error is hardly a tantrum. I'm disappointed in you, Tisket, and am strongly considering putting you on PC friend probation for a month.
Well, ok, a week.
Tisket
12-19-2006, 07:30 PM
Asking a question and informing you of your error is hardly a tantrum. I'm disappointed in you, Tisket, and am strongly considering putting you on PC friend probation for a month.
Well, ok, a week.
Go whack off instead. You'll feel worlds better. I promise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w77sLtz754
Satire regarding comparison between Ahgazuendheidt/Baker and Chamberlain/Hitler.
:lol:
There may be some nutjobs who still asserts that Apollo pulls the sun across the sky every day but we would never expect them to be granted a speaking presentation in a serious convention of astronomers
No serious historian would say that anyone "needs" to debate the reality of the holocaust.
Be real and call that convention for what it is if you insist on having it, but don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.
I am not advocating that the theory denying the existence of the holocaust holds water. However being an advocate of free speech I must uphold anothers right to hold and debate any topic no matter how heinous.
I can't pre-suppose what the conference will entail especially considering the fact the some Haredi Jews from Israel will be attending the conference.
In light of the fact that miles of Holocaust documents have recently been made public I can think of no better time to have this discussion. Sometimes the best way to be rid of rats is to shine a light on them.
Tsa`ah
12-20-2006, 03:27 PM
I am not advocating that the theory denying the existence of the holocaust holds water. However being an advocate of free speech I must uphold anothers right to hold and debate any topic no matter how heinous.
Free speech is free speech and it's a shame that such topics are censored in other countries. However, there can be no question as to the intent of such a conference ... free speech is not the intent.
I can't pre-suppose what the conference will entail especially considering the fact the some Haredi Jews from Israel will be attending the conference.
Attended, past tense. You can't debate something with a complete lack of opposition. We call such a thing an agreement session.
The attendance of Charedi was representative of their views, not as denial of the holocaust. For those who don't know, the Charedi are what would be considered ultra orthodox with a twist. They're not zionist and it's considered disgraceful to use past struggles to justify current and future actions.
In light of the fact that miles of Holocaust documents have recently been made public I can think of no better time to have this discussion. Sometimes the best way to be rid of rats is to shine a light on them.
It's amusing you would call it a discussion, but I agree that this "conference" has been more of a global public service announcement. It was litererally a convergence of the "who's who" among global fucktards.
Parkbandit
12-20-2006, 03:36 PM
Free speech is free speech and it's a shame that such topics are censored in other countries. However, there can be no question as to the intent of such a conference ... free speech is not the intent.
Hey.. it clearly shows that free speech is alive and well in Iran.
LMAO
Hey.. it clearly shows that free speech is alive and well in Iran.
LMAO
You have taken my quote out of context but I fully expected you would. At least you are being true to form.
I have no doubt you have a full and rich understanding of Persian history & culture.
Parkbandit
12-20-2006, 05:26 PM
You have taken my quote out of context but I fully expected you would. At least you are being true to form.
I have no doubt you have a full and rich understanding of Persian history & culture.
Yes Tom Cruise.. I understand you are the expert on this and I am just.. what's the word..
Glib.
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