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TheEschaton
12-02-2006, 01:51 PM
This is scary type shit. Big Brother, 1984 style.

U.S. gov't terror ratings draw outrage (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061202/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/traveler_screening)

WASHINGTON - A leader of the new Democratic Congress, business travelers and privacy advocates expressed outrage Friday over the unannounced assignment of terrorism risk assessments to American international travelers by a computerized system managed from an unmarked, two-story brick building in Northern Virginia.

Incoming Senate Judiciary Chairman Sen. Patrick Leahy (news, bio, voting record) of Vermont pledged greater scrutiny of such government database-mining projects after reading that during the past four years millions of Americans have been evaluated without their knowledge to assess the risks that they are terrorists or criminals.

"Data banks like this are overdue for oversight," said Leahy, who will take over Judiciary in January. "That is going to change in the new Congress."

The Associated Press reported Thursday that Americans and foreigners crossing U.S. borders since 2002 have been assessed by the Homeland Security Department's computerized Automated Targeting System, or ATS.

The travelers are not allowed to see or directly challenge these risk assessments, which the government intends to keep on file for 40 years. Some or all data in the system can be shared with state, local and foreign governments for use in hiring, contracting and licensing decisions. Courts and even some private contractors can obtain some of the data under certain circumstances.

"It is simply incredible that the Bush administration is willing to share this sensitive information with foreign governments and even private employers, while refusing to allow U.S. citizens to see or challenge their own terror scores," Leahy said. This system "highlights the danger of government use of technology to conduct widespread surveillance of our daily lives without proper safeguards for privacy."

The concerns spread beyond Congress.

"I have never seen anything as egregious as this," said Kevin Mitchell, president of the Business Travel Coalition, which advocates for business travelers. It's "evidence of what can happen when there isn't proper oversight and accountability."

By late Friday, the government had received 22 written public comments about its after-the-fact disclosure of the program last month in the Federal Register, a fine-print compendium of federal rules. All either opposed it outright or objected to the lack of a direct means for people to correct any errors in the database about themselves.

"As a U.S. citizen who spends much time outside the U.S., I can understand the need for good security," wrote one who identified himself as Colin Edmunds. "However, just as I would not participate in a banking/credit card system where I have no recourse to correct or even view my personal data, I cannot accept the same of my government."

Privacy advocates also were alarmed.

"Never before in American history has our government gotten into the business of creating mass `risk assessment' ratings of its own citizens," said Barry Steinhardt, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union. "We are stunned" the program has been undertaken "with virtually no opportunity for the public to evaluate or comment on it."

The Homeland Security Department says the nation's ability to spot criminals and other security threats "would be critically impaired without access to this data."

And on Friday as the normal daily flow of a million or more people entered the United States by air, sea and land, the ATS program's computers continued their silent scrutiny. At that Virginia building with no sign, the managers of the National Targeting Center allowed an Associated Press photographer to briefly roam their work space.

But he couldn't reveal the building's exact location. None of the dozens of workers under the bright fluorescent lights could be named. Some could not be photographed.

The only clue he might have entered a government building was a montage of photos in the reception area of President Bush's visit to the center. But there was only one guard and a sign-in book.

Inside, red digital clocks on the walls showed the time in Istanbul, Baghdad, Islamabad, Bangkok, Singapore, Tokyo, and Sydney. Although billboard-size video screens on the walls showed multiple cable news shows, there was little noise in the basketball-court-sized main workroom. Each desk had dual computer screens and earphones to hear the video soundtrack. Conferences were held in smaller workrooms divided by glass walls from the windowless main room.

Round the clock, the targeters from Homeland Security's Customs and Border Protection agency analyze information from multiple sources, not just ATS. They compare names to terrorist watch lists and mine the Treasury Enforcement Communications System and other automated systems that bring data about cargo, travelers and commercial workers entering or leaving the 317 U.S. ports, searching for suspicious people and cargo.

Almost every person entering and leaving the United States by air, sea or land is assessed based on ATS' analysis of their travel records and other data, including items such as where they are from, how they paid for tickets, their motor vehicle records, past one-way travel, seating preference and what kind of meal they ordered.

Government officials could not say whether ATS has apprehended any terrorists. Based on all the information available to them, federal agents turn back about 45 foreign criminals a day at U.S. borders, according to Homeland Security's Customs and Border Protection spokesman Bill Anthony. He could not say how many were spotted by ATS.

Officials described how the system works: applying rules learned from experience with the activities and characteristics of terrorists and criminals to the traveler data. But they would not describe in detail the format in which border agents see the results or in which the databases store the results of the ATS risk assessments.

Acting Assistant Homeland Security Secretary Paul Rosenzweig told reporters Friday they could call it scoring. "It can be reduced to a number," he said, but he clearly preferred the longer description about how the rules are used.

ElanthianSiren
12-02-2006, 02:02 PM
So how are those follow-up trips to Africa looking?

-M

TheEschaton
12-02-2006, 03:11 PM
I think I dislike the fact that they can possibly give it to my prospective employer, after they've concocted it totally arbitrarily. Let's see, I was born in India, with a significant Muslim population, I'm liberal, religious (though not Muslim), and not very fond of George Bush.

I wonder what my report says.

-TheE-

Daniel
12-02-2006, 03:30 PM
You were also a peace corps volunteer and are in Law school. I wouldn't be shredding that passport just yet.

TheEschaton
12-02-2006, 03:39 PM
The Peace Corps might count against me. There's some seriously crazy people in that organization.

-TheE-

Daniel
12-02-2006, 03:40 PM
Yea, but most people don't know that.

Parkbandit
12-02-2006, 07:52 PM
I think I dislike the fact that they can possibly give it to my prospective employer, after they've concocted it totally arbitrarily. Let's see, I was born in India, with a significant Muslim population, I'm liberal, religious (though not Muslim), and not very fond of George Bush.

I wonder what my report says.

-TheE-

I'm pretty sure it says you are retarded.

Sean of the Thread
12-02-2006, 07:59 PM
Why wouldn't you want an employer to know how you voted? Ashamed of something?

Back
12-02-2006, 08:03 PM
I’m going to start wearing an I <3 Bush t-shirt when I fly now.

Artha
12-02-2006, 08:19 PM
Pics or it didn't happen.

Parkbandit
12-02-2006, 09:17 PM
I’m going to start wearing an I <3 Bush t-shirt when I fly now.

This shows exactly how little you know about how the US government works. I think my 12 year old knows more.

We should be more concerned about our educational system allowing people like you onto our streets without a simple education.

You have my pity.

Back
12-02-2006, 09:45 PM
This shows exactly how little you know about how the US government works. I think my 12 year old knows more.

We should be more concerned about our educational system allowing people like you onto our streets without a simple education.

You have my pity.

JFC, grandpappy. Losing your sense of humor already? I heard thats the third thing that goes.

ZING!!!

Keller
12-02-2006, 09:52 PM
This shows ... the US government works.

Verily?

Apathy
12-03-2006, 02:04 AM
Explain why I should worry about this?

sst
12-03-2006, 02:57 AM
The Peace Corps might count against me. There's some seriously crazy people in that organization.

-TheE-

A crazy people and spies.

Parkbandit
12-03-2006, 07:58 AM
Explain why I should worry about this?


You shouldn't. It's once again the kooks and freaks that are up in arms that their rights are being violated.

Here's an idea.. don't like it? DON'T FUCKING FLY.

Parkbandit
12-03-2006, 07:59 AM
Verily?

If you are going to hack away at what I say and try to make a full sentance out of it.. have someone help you since you failed at it.

Apathy
12-03-2006, 10:43 AM
I don't see any difference between this and a personality test to measure the level of anti-social behavior in a person.

There are plenty of more important things to care about.

Parkbandit
12-03-2006, 11:24 AM
I don't see any difference between this and a personality test to measure the level of anti-social behavior in a person.

There are plenty of more important things to care about.

U DON'T CARE ABOUT CIVIL LIBERTIES OR RIGHTS, YOU MUST LIKE BUSH WHO IS TRYING TO BE A DICTATOR!!!

Gan
12-03-2006, 11:48 AM
I've been on the no-fly list for 3 years now thanks to an IRA terrorist who has the same name I do. I still fly. When I use an airline that is not my primary (frequent) then it takes me a little longer to get my boarding pass and luggage checked in; however, once I have my boarding pass I go through normal security lines like everyone else.

I have to agree with the above sentiment, this affects me how?

TheEschaton
12-03-2006, 12:10 PM
Because they can give this score to prospective employers?

-TheE-

Skeeter
12-03-2006, 01:23 PM
I approve of measures that may keep terrorists off of planes.

Sounds like our resident terrorist has something to fear.

Skirmisher
12-03-2006, 04:26 PM
I don't think an employer has any right to that information but otherwise i'm not incredibly shocked or upset by it

Gan
12-03-2006, 07:13 PM
I approve of measures that may keep terrorists off of planes.

Sounds like our resident terrorist has something to fear.

:whistle:



As if we don't have enough problems with race in this country, I don't need every fucking person on a plane thinking I'm a terrorist because I'm brown and I'm travelling alone and I have a beard. It was bad enough after 9/11.

-TheE-

Gan
12-03-2006, 07:15 PM
Because they can give this score to prospective employers?

-TheE-

And something I"m more than willing to discuss with the prospective employer. Now if the prospective employer uses this information as a screening tool without the candidate being able to discuss/defend then yes, its a bad thing on the employers part and on the government's part in supplying the 'poison fruit'.

Apathy
12-03-2006, 10:54 PM
Because they can give this score to prospective employers?

-TheE-

...so?

TheEschaton
12-03-2006, 11:11 PM
...so?

So....it's completely arbitrary and you're not allowed to see it or challenge it?

-TheE-

Parkbandit
12-04-2006, 12:34 PM
So....it's completely arbitrary and you're not allowed to see it or challenge it?

-TheE-

What employers get that score or are you just making this up to create more apathy towards your 'cause'? I'm pretty sure as an employer, I cannot get that score on my employees.

xtc
12-04-2006, 12:40 PM
Why wouldn't you want an employer to know how you voted? Ashamed of something?

The fight for secret ballots was a long time coming. How would you like a raving liberal employer to know how you vote?

TheEschaton
12-04-2006, 12:48 PM
The article says government employers, and possibly government-contracted private employers.

-TheE-

xtc
12-04-2006, 12:52 PM
This is a ludricous measure. They assigned a terror risk assessment to you. I am guessing a number or some sort. This can be shared with employers and foreign governments.

I wonder what they base this risk assessmnet on? Brown skin, add 5 terror points. Been to a middle east country, add 5 terror points. Muslim name add 50 terror points, Muslim name, male bewteen 18 -35, hold for body cavity search.

Any terrorist worth his salt would have a brand spanking new passport with no stamps on it. He would have changed his name legally to a non-Muslim name and would be carrying a passport from a non-Muslim country. Jose Fernandes from the Phillipines come on in, oopss!!!

Skeeter
12-04-2006, 01:14 PM
OMG I bet the govt hasn't thought of that!! U just saved millions.

xtc
12-04-2006, 05:43 PM
OMG I bet the govt hasn't thought of that!! U just saved millions.

I should invoice them for consulting services, government contracts can be quite lucrative.

Artha
12-04-2006, 06:43 PM
Any terrorist worth his salt would have a brand spanking new passport with no stamps on it. He would have changed his name legally to a non-Muslim name and would be carrying a passport from a non-Muslim country.
Like all those anglo-named hijackers with Canadian passports?

xtc
12-06-2006, 02:28 PM
Like all those anglo-named hijackers with Canadian passports?

Must have missed that story.

Artha
12-06-2006, 02:36 PM
Because it didn't happen. Because your statement was not accurate.

xtc
12-06-2006, 02:39 PM
Because it didn't happen. Because your statement was not accurate.

I was speculating. What do you think they are basing it on?

Artha
12-06-2006, 03:41 PM
That's not the part I was talking about.


Any terrorist worth his salt would have a brand spanking new passport with no stamps on it. He would have changed his name legally to a non-Muslim name and would be carrying a passport from a non-Muslim country.
This is. It's just more chances to get 'in the system' and get caught, whereas you can just get a student visa and a plane ticket.

xtc
12-06-2006, 03:46 PM
That's not the part I was talking about.


This is. It's just more chances to get 'in the system' and get caught, whereas you can just get a student visa and a plane ticket.

Perhaps. Less scrutiny to come for vacation than to apply for a student visa. I still think the way I outlined is probably the most effective and wouldn't involve a lot of work.

Artha
12-06-2006, 03:58 PM
I think there's a reason the hijackers didn't do it.

xtc
12-06-2006, 04:01 PM
I think there's a reason the hijackers didn't do it.


less scrutiny back then

Bartlett
12-06-2006, 10:59 PM
OR, they want you to know who did it. Where is the glory to Allah when Tim Smith from Alabama blows something up? Security has a price. Does this border on some kind of privacy infringement? I suppose it does, however it isn't going to affect you unless you are looking for some kind of government job or if you are a terrorist. I suppose the Government would get whatever info they pre-gathered during their background check on you anyway, and I am sure if you are a suspected terrorist, you will have an opportunity to discuss that when you apply at the CIA. The "War on Terror" is a signifigant military force fighting individuals. Shortly after 9/11 everyone was tossing around the blame for not detecting something like this. In response to the need for security as called by the American public, Democrats and Republicans alike, We tap potentially incriminating phone calls or do a background assessment on people coming and going from the country by plane, and now everyone complains about their privacy. It has come up numerous times how these sorts of measures have been used in the past, but I guess since it is Bush, we should fight it. If this information is not handled with a high level of confidentiality, then we have a problem, but I doubt that will be the case.

Artha
12-06-2006, 11:09 PM
less scrutiny back then
Remember, one of them got caught trying to learn how to fly a plane but not land it.

Every extra step you add to the plan is a step where something can go wrong, so it's best to keep it simple.