Then and Now

[Sean of the Thread]

http://www.gop.com/DemFacts/ThenNow.aspx

All your favorite career politicians included so don't be shy and pick the biggest idiot. Enjoy!

[Gan]

Interesting to see what was said then, and what is said now.

Interesting indeed.

:popcorn:

[TheEschaton]

I've only looked at Dean, Kerry, and Clinton, but the pattern seems pretty clear:

Then:
1) They trusted the President to present evidence on the good faith that the evidence was reliable.
2) They made their statements based on that evidence, thinking it was solid, credible evidence.

Now:
1) They realize the President deliberately misrepresented the so-called "evidence" to push his own agenda, which is wrong regardless of the right of displacing Saddam.
2) They now make statements about how they were wrong, because they trusted the President. At least they can admit they were wrong.

I never trusted the President, and thus, I was always against the Iraq war, but I can see how a politician would support the President leading up to war. I mean, fuck, Colin Powell, one of America's most respected and celebrated statesmen, got up in front of the U.N. and presented "EVIDENCE" that Iraq had WMD.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

It's classic and this double talk never gets old imo.

[Jesuit]

And Saddam being the honest person that he is would never do anything like move the weapons of mass destruction somewhere else so he wouldn't get caught.


Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.







"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."
Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloging the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.
Most of Saddam's most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said.
The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam's weapons, including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX, is still being investigated, Mr. Shaw said.
The RDX and HMX, which are used to manufacture high-explosive and nuclear weapons, are probably of Russian origin, he said.
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita could not be reached for comment.
The disappearance of the material was reported in a letter Oct. 10 from the Iraqi government to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Disclosure of the missing explosives Monday in a New York Times story was used by the Democratic presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry, who accused the Bush administration of failing to secure the material.
Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
"That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."
The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that the Al-Qaqaa facility was defended by Fedayeen Saddam, Special Republican Guard and other Iraqi military units during the conflict. U.S. forces defeated the defenders around April 3 and found the gates to the facility open, the Pentagon said in a statement yesterday.
A military unit in charge of searching for weapons, the Army's 75th Exploitation Task Force, then inspected Al-Qaqaa on May 8, May 11 and May 27, 2003, and found no high explosives that had been monitored in the past by the IAEA.
The Pentagon said there was no evidence of large-scale movement of explosives from the facility after April 6.
"The movement of 377 tons of heavy ordnance would have required dozens of heavy trucks and equipment moving along the same roadways as U.S. combat divisions occupied continually for weeks prior to and subsequent to the 3rd Infantry Division's arrival at the facility," the statement said.
The statement also said that the material may have been removed from the site by Saddam's regime.
According to the Pentagon, U.N. arms inspectors sealed the explosives at Al-Qaqaa in January 2003 and revisited the site in March and noted that the seals were not broken.
It is not known whether the inspectors saw the explosives in March. The U.N. team left the country before the U.S.-led invasion began March 20, 2003.
A second defense official said documents on the Russian support to Iraq reveal that Saddam's government paid the Kremlin for the special forces to provide security for Iraq's Russian arms and to conduct counterintelligence activities designed to prevent U.S. and Western intelligence services from learning about the arms pipeline through Syria.
The Russian arms-removal program was initiated after Yevgeny Primakov, the former Russian intelligence chief, could not persuade Saddam to give in to U.S. and Western demands, this official said.
A small portion of Iraq's 650,000 tons to 1 million tons of conventional arms that were found after the war were looted after the U.S.-led invasion, Mr. Shaw said. Russia was Iraq's largest foreign supplier of weaponry, he said.
However, the most important and useful arms and explosives appear to have been separated and moved out as part of carefully designed program. "The organized effort was done in advance of the conflict," Mr. Shaw said.
The Russian forces were tasked with moving special arms out of the country.
Mr. Shaw said foreign intelligence officials believe the Russians worked with Saddam's Mukhabarat intelligence service to separate out special weapons, including high explosives and other arms and related technology, from standard conventional arms spread out in some 200 arms depots.
The Russian weapons were then sent out of the country to Syria, and possibly Lebanon in Russian trucks, Mr. Shaw said.
Mr. Shaw said he believes that the withdrawal of Russian-made weapons and explosives from Iraq was part of plan by Saddam to set up a "redoubt" in Syria that could be used as a base for launching pro-Saddam insurgency operations in Iraq.
The Russian units were dispatched beginning in January 2003 and by March had destroyed hundreds of pages of documents on Russian arms supplies to Iraq while dispersing arms to Syria, the second official said.
Besides their own weapons, the Russians were supplying Saddam with arms made in Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and other Eastern European nations, he said.
"Whatever was not buried was put on lorries and sent to the Syrian border," the defense official said.
Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of military units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank parts and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said.
The director of the Iraqi government front company known as the Al Bashair Trading Co. fled to Syria, where he is in charge of monitoring arms holdings and funding Iraqi insurgent activities, the official said.
Also, an Arabic-language report obtained by U.S. intelligence disclosed the extent of Russian armaments. The 26-page report was written by Abdul Tawab Mullah al Huwaysh, Saddam's minister of military industrialization, who was captured by U.S. forces May 2, 2003.
The Russian "spetsnaz" or special-operations forces were under the GRU military intelligence service and organized large commercial truck convoys for the weapons removal, the official said.
Regarding the explosives, the new Iraqi government reported that 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or high-melting-point explosive, and 141.2 metric tons of RDX, or rapid-detonation explosive, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, were missing.
The material is used in nuclear weapons and also in making military "plastic" high explosive.
Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm

[TheEschaton]

Ummmm, the Washington Times isn't even good enough to wipe your ass with.

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

Nice video.

Don't forget you can goto the individuals on the left and get a more personal view of all the flip flopping.

[Sean of the Thread]

I've only looked at Dean, Kerry, and Clinton, but the pattern seems pretty clear:

Then:
1) They trusted the President to present evidence on the good faith that the evidence was reliable.
2) They made their statements based on that evidence, thinking it was solid, credible evidence.

Now:
1) They realize the President deliberately misrepresented the so-called "evidence" to push his own agenda, which is wrong regardless of the right of displacing Saddam.
2) They now make statements about how they were wrong, because they trusted the President. At least they can admit they were wrong.

I never trusted the President, and thus, I was always against the Iraq war, but I can see how a politician would support the President leading up to war. I mean, fuck, Colin Powell, one of America's most respected and celebrated statesmen, got up in front of the U.N. and presented "EVIDENCE" that Iraq had WMD.

-TheE-

Rofl. Yeah.. that's exactly what is going on with those videos.

[TheEschaton]

Uhhh, yeah, it is.

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

Uhhh, yeah, it is.

-TheE-

Keep up the idiot parade. It's amusing to all of us with common sense.

[TheEschaton]

Well - okay, Xy. You win. I'm a feckless idiot. ;)

Now I realize how Republicans always win. They just attack reason and make absolutely absurd statements and refuse to make logical conclusions....

...until you're so tired of arguing them that you just give up, and, for your own sanity, you let them "win".

-TheE-

[Sean of the Thread]

The beat marches on.

[Gan]

Interesting article Jesuit. Thanks for posting it.

[Latrinsorm]

Xyelin's an indepedent. DUH.

[Jesuit]

You're welcome Ganalon

[xtc]

And Saddam being the honest person that he is would never do anything like move the weapons of mass destruction somewhere else so he wouldn't get caught.


Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.







"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."
Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloging the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.
Most of Saddam's most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said.
The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam's weapons, including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX, is still being investigated, Mr. Shaw said.
The RDX and HMX, which are used to manufacture high-explosive and nuclear weapons, are probably of Russian origin, he said.
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita could not be reached for comment.
The disappearance of the material was reported in a letter Oct. 10 from the Iraqi government to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Disclosure of the missing explosives Monday in a New York Times story was used by the Democratic presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry, who accused the Bush administration of failing to secure the material.
Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
"That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."
The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that the Al-Qaqaa facility was defended by Fedayeen Saddam, Special Republican Guard and other Iraqi military units during the conflict. U.S. forces defeated the defenders around April 3 and found the gates to the facility open, the Pentagon said in a statement yesterday.
A military unit in charge of searching for weapons, the Army's 75th Exploitation Task Force, then inspected Al-Qaqaa on May 8, May 11 and May 27, 2003, and found no high explosives that had been monitored in the past by the IAEA.
The Pentagon said there was no evidence of large-scale movement of explosives from the facility after April 6.
"The movement of 377 tons of heavy ordnance would have required dozens of heavy trucks and equipment moving along the same roadways as U.S. combat divisions occupied continually for weeks prior to and subsequent to the 3rd Infantry Division's arrival at the facility," the statement said.
The statement also said that the material may have been removed from the site by Saddam's regime.
According to the Pentagon, U.N. arms inspectors sealed the explosives at Al-Qaqaa in January 2003 and revisited the site in March and noted that the seals were not broken.
It is not known whether the inspectors saw the explosives in March. The U.N. team left the country before the U.S.-led invasion began March 20, 2003.
A second defense official said documents on the Russian support to Iraq reveal that Saddam's government paid the Kremlin for the special forces to provide security for Iraq's Russian arms and to conduct counterintelligence activities designed to prevent U.S. and Western intelligence services from learning about the arms pipeline through Syria.
The Russian arms-removal program was initiated after Yevgeny Primakov, the former Russian intelligence chief, could not persuade Saddam to give in to U.S. and Western demands, this official said.
A small portion of Iraq's 650,000 tons to 1 million tons of conventional arms that were found after the war were looted after the U.S.-led invasion, Mr. Shaw said. Russia was Iraq's largest foreign supplier of weaponry, he said.
However, the most important and useful arms and explosives appear to have been separated and moved out as part of carefully designed program. "The organized effort was done in advance of the conflict," Mr. Shaw said.
The Russian forces were tasked with moving special arms out of the country.
Mr. Shaw said foreign intelligence officials believe the Russians worked with Saddam's Mukhabarat intelligence service to separate out special weapons, including high explosives and other arms and related technology, from standard conventional arms spread out in some 200 arms depots.
The Russian weapons were then sent out of the country to Syria, and possibly Lebanon in Russian trucks, Mr. Shaw said.
Mr. Shaw said he believes that the withdrawal of Russian-made weapons and explosives from Iraq was part of plan by Saddam to set up a "redoubt" in Syria that could be used as a base for launching pro-Saddam insurgency operations in Iraq.
The Russian units were dispatched beginning in January 2003 and by March had destroyed hundreds of pages of documents on Russian arms supplies to Iraq while dispersing arms to Syria, the second official said.
Besides their own weapons, the Russians were supplying Saddam with arms made in Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and other Eastern European nations, he said.
"Whatever was not buried was put on lorries and sent to the Syrian border," the defense official said.
Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of military units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank parts and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said.
The director of the Iraqi government front company known as the Al Bashair Trading Co. fled to Syria, where he is in charge of monitoring arms holdings and funding Iraqi insurgent activities, the official said.
Also, an Arabic-language report obtained by U.S. intelligence disclosed the extent of Russian armaments. The 26-page report was written by Abdul Tawab Mullah al Huwaysh, Saddam's minister of military industrialization, who was captured by U.S. forces May 2, 2003.
The Russian "spetsnaz" or special-operations forces were under the GRU military intelligence service and organized large commercial truck convoys for the weapons removal, the official said.
Regarding the explosives, the new Iraqi government reported that 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or high-melting-point explosive, and 141.2 metric tons of RDX, or rapid-detonation explosive, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, were missing.
The material is used in nuclear weapons and also in making military "plastic" high explosive.
Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm

LOL yeah the Ruskies helped Saddam get rid of his WMD......please.....I think Pat Robertson has a opening for a news correspondent on his show. You would make a great choice.

[Warriorbird]

Xyelin's an indepedent. DUH.

About as independent as you.

[Goldenranger]

Ugh.

The Democrats included in this video held their finger up and tested the political winds and made statements and voted with the way they thought the wind was blowing. I don't doubt that they did this for an attempt at political gain as opposed to actually believing it or standing on principle. They were a bunch of twits on this one, can't believe I agree with GOP.com. Farking idiots on this issue at the time, I wish they had grown a pair of ovaries/testicles.

This coming from a uber-liberal Democrat.

[Gan]

Hillary Clinton: September 28, 2006
Hillary saying NO to torture as an interrogation technique
http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/hillarys_breakt.html

Hillary Clinton: October 12, 2006
Hillary seems to be equivocating on the torture issue
http://blogs.nydailynews.com/dailypolitics/archives/2006/10/clinton_on_tort.php

Seems she's rushing to the middle on this issue too. I hope to see more coverage on this since it was pretty difficult to pull any info off the mainstream internet media. It definately was a topic of discussion on the radio talk shows today, so if true to form, it will be a day or two before coverage is adequately given on the internet/print media.

Either way, I thought it fairly apropropriate for this thread.

:whistle:

[ElanthianSiren]

Yay it's another flip flop thread!

Frist on the Dubai ports deal is pretty damn hillarious.

-M
edit: but then again, Frist was just going with the majority of constituent opinion to switch from 100% approval to 'hey maybe we should ask some questions.' Not flip flopping. :lol:

[Parkbandit]

About as independent as you.

Aren't you the one that keeps saying he's not a Liberal?

Good stuff.

[Latrinsorm]

About as independent as you.I know I am, but what are you? :smug: