National Security

[Back]

What is your general feeling on security where you live, and, how do you perceive it being in the country you live in with regards to terrorism?

I’m really curious to hear from those who live outside America on this issue, especially what things are like in England.

I live in DC, one of America’s top targets for terrorist activity, and ride our public subway daily. I’ve already remarked that security seems really loose here which is surprising to me being the high-profile target that we are.

Its been commented that security measures are not all immediately visible which is obvious. Plain clothes cops walking the platforms, cameras and chemical sniffing machines are what we have. No security checkpoints, no metal detectors, one or two station managers at each entrance, and very few if any armed plainly visible officers.

Now, I’m not flipping out about it and avoiding riding the Metro because of it, but when I see that the Washington Monument has a security checkpoint, the courthouses and other government buildings here, or the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC all have better security, I have to say I do not feel completely confident that our subway system is safe.

We have the Port of Baltimore here to the north and I was curious about what they’ve been doing to secure it. Went to their site and did not find any detail or even much on the subject other than a request for people to call in if they see suspicious activity. Not exactly an overwhelming vote of confidence on that one.

We’ve just had something like 11 of 50 city cameras installed as a security measure here in DC. I’m glad to hear the city is doing something about our security, but its an eerie Big Brother approach.

Also, on a related subject, I’ve been hearing about using biometrics as a security measure. That if someone is plotting a major bombing, their heart rates and systems are going to stand out against the average person. Is this really a good idea? What if someone is afraid of flying? Or someone cut in line before you and you get pissed and any million other reasons to get people agitated? Seems hoaky and unreliable to me.

[Hulkein]

I generally feel safe in Philly. I think about 'what if that plane took a nose dive into the stadium' when at Eagles games, but that's just my imagination mainly, not something I really think will happen.

As for biometrics, that's a horrible idea. I'm not letting something like that ever being planted in me.

[Wezas]

As for the security cameras, tough to have things both ways. Safety benefits come at the cost of some (public) privacy.

[Hulkein]

I got used to security cameras on the streets up at school in State College. They were on every corner in the area where all the drunks congregated to get pizza at 2 when the bars closed.

My drunken self just walked past the mobs and lines, no time for pizza sopping up the alcohol.

[TheEschaton]

I don't feel safe, but I think it's because I'm a paranoid schizophrenic. Heck, I make up escape routes when I'm queuing up. It hasn't helped that 9/11 was executed by fellows who looked like me, because now, even though I still think everyone's looking at me strange, SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY ARE. Ugh.

</joking-on-the-sly>

-TheE-

[Celephais]

I feel perfectly safe, there are no priority terrorist targets in the Hartford area. If we were at war with an entity capable of full scale attacks it might be a bit different, what with the Pratt and Whitney Engine plant and the Groton Sub base nearby.

Other than that, perfectly secure (which is exactly what terrorists are looking for! Oh noz! Catch 22!!!)

[ElanthianSiren]

I feel safer than someone living in Iraq, Lebanon, or Sudan.

I'm not the type of person that fears terrorism however because I learned other people are going to do what they're going to do, and you have to live with it. If you cower, give into hysteria, or forfeit your way of life, IMO, you're letting them win (you have been terrorized). Example -- On 9/11, I went to 11 am classes (always took public trans as I couldn't drive due to my seizures/diabetes) and carried on as normal after it was announced terrorists were hitting us. Some of my profs offered to let us go, and some did go, but I stayed. To me, that principle is very important.

I think every country is particularly vulnerable to terroristic attacks (chemical attacks are even more plausible). What reaction to give or choose not to give however IMO is a more important question to consider.

-M

[Celephais]

If I recall correctly at 11 am there wasn't nearly enough information to make an assessment such as "It's just terrorists, if you do anything out of the ordinary, you're letting them win".

I went to my classes that day too (I had a class shortly after it happened, quite a few of my classmates didn't even know it happened), but it wasn't without a modicum of unease.

Edit: re-read what you said, and you said "after it was announced". ... When was that?

[ElanthianSiren]

I remember watching the second tower go down over and over on the tv, and there being tons of confusion as to what was actually going on. My dad initially told me that it was terrorists because my mom was on a flight to pittsburgh that day, so he was glued to the news.

American Airlines Flight 11, a Boeing 767-223[3], wide-body aircraft crashed into the north side of the North Tower of the World Trade Center (WTC) at 8:46:30 a.m. local time.

United Airlines Flight 175, a Boeing 767-222[4], crashed into the South Tower at 9:02:59 a.m. local time (13:02:59 UTC), an event covered live by television broadcasters from around the world who had their cameras trained on the buildings after the earlier crash.

American Airlines Flight 77, a Boeing 757-223[5], crashed into the Pentagon at 9:37:46 a.m. local time. (from Wiki)

Fairly sure they called terrorism when the second filght hit. The first one, they were saying was a plane malfunction or a car bomb or something.

-M
edit: unease is not the same thing as not letting yourself be terrorized into torpor.

[TheEschaton]

My school cancelled classes after noon. Had a massive prayer service. Never seen anything like it.

Though, my school was in Boston, and two of the planes had flown from Logan, and the jets from Hanscom airfield had been scrambling overhead for the whole morning.

Anyways, I agree with the sentiment, ES, after 9/11 itself. On the 1 year anniversary, it was important to me to maintain my normal schedule, and not be at the memorial service. That my normal schedule involved lying on the grass reading a book and watching the ants kind of pissed some people off (it's not like I had class or anything) but oh well.

-TheE-

[zhelas]

The feeling of safety is all relative. I currently live in the Dallas/Fortworth area. I feel quite safe even though I am sure this metropolitan area would make a great statement if something happened.

Am I worried about a terrorist attack? Not really. Do I think the city is prepare for one? Not really. Just live smart and keep your eyes open. I think day to day life here in Dallas is probably more dangerous.

I don't let myself get worried over terrorist attacks. The way I was able to break the insanity was to only watch the new once or twice a day versus being glued to CNN/MSNBC/FoxNews 24/7.

[Gan]

I live in the 4th largest city in the US, with the largest oil refinery complex in the world, which is connected to the first/second largest sea/industrial port in American and the 6th largest in the world.

Are we a potential target? Sure.

Do I feel safe? Yes.

I have a good friend on the HPD/FBI task force for homeland security and he's explained a few things that are covered in their 'umbrella' of protection.

We have a light comuter rail with uniformed officers roaming from stop to stop.

As far as law officer coverage, we have multiple branches of law enforcement that can be found within the city limits... Houston PD, Precinct Constables, Metro Police, County Sherrif, and Texas Dept. Public Safety. The first 3 branches are the most visible and most populated within city limits. The last 2 branches are focused in greater amounts outside the city limits.

Courthouses and other public service buildings are usually posted with checkpoints and metal detectors.

Even with all of the presence of law enforcement, one does not feel like they are living in a 'police state' with regards to enjoying everyday freedoms.

But culturally Houston is probably one of the most culturally diverse metropolitan areas along the Gulf Coast, therefore its customary to see different looking people and cultures daily.

We're pretty complacent with regards to feeling safe, and probably will remain that way until something happens to the contrary.

[zhelas]

During 9/11 I was living in Pomfret CT. I remember watching in disbelief as I saw the second plane slam into the second tower. My classes at Roger Williams University closed down for the rest of the day.

I was glued to the television like everyone else waiting for answers. I had to step away from the media. It became over powering watching the images of folks in pain.

I went and participated in the national prayer service and moment of silence while the bells tolled.

[Jorddyn]

What is your general feeling on security where you live, and, how do you perceive it being in the country you live in with regards to terrorism?

I feel very secure. Of course, I live in Iowa.


I live in DC, one of America’s top targets for terrorist activity, and ride our public subway daily. I’ve already remarked that security seems really loose here which is surprising to me being the high-profile target that we are.
...I have to say I do not feel completely confident that our subway system is safe.

You aren't totally safe. No one is. I guess the question is how much hassle do you think is an acceptable trade off for feeling marginally safer? I'm about at the breaking point - I'd probably already have broken had I flown in the aftermath of the liquid bomb - liquid carryon - no shoes - let's fly naked scare.


We have the Port of Baltimore here to the north and I was curious about what they’ve been doing to secure it. Went to their site and did not find any detail or even much on the subject other than a request for people to call in if they see suspicious activity. Not exactly an overwhelming vote of confidence on that one.

Eh, that seems smart to me. Why tell people how you're screening? Makes screening easier to get around.


We’ve just had something like 11 of 50 city cameras installed as a security measure here in DC. I’m glad to hear the city is doing something about or security, but its an eerie Big Brother approach.

I had no problem with the cameras in London, and they were everywhere. I could be wrong, but I think they're used more for catching criminals after a crime (which they now have on tape) than for watching everything and issuing jaywalking tickets.


Also, on a related subject, I’ve been hearing about using biometrics as a security measure. ... Seems hoaky and unreliable to me.

Ditto. I get incredibly nervous going through security of any sort. I'd be the one who was pulled out of line and strip searched, when really all I'm thinking is "Did I remember to take my tweezers out of my carryon?"

Edited to add: The point of terrorism is to disrupt. They blow up a plane, everyone decides not to fly. Of course, they try to blow up a plane, the nation goes into a panic, and now I've decided not to fly for a while because I can't deal with the chaos. I am NOT saying we're terrorist, I'm just saying that maybe we need to rethink our strategery.

Jorddyn

[Gan]

How attractive are National ID cards now that we're discussing border control, immigration, and tracking 'guests' within our country?

I'm curious to see if the opinion has changed with regards to ID cards and its relation to national security.

[ElanthianSiren]

Heh -- they actually don't bother me as much as they once did; they're the first step toward getting a reliable nationalized healthcare system. :whistle:

-M
edit: It depends on how they're used though -- for state matters, sure. You'd have to draft some serious legislation/protections however to make sure that they're not abused.

[Kefka]

I think it's become more disruptive over the years. I always assumed there was someone listening in on the other end, but it's one of those things you push to the back of your mind like gm's spying on you in GS. Now they're becoming blatantly obvious about it and more people are like WTF! The random bag searches on the subway, the subpoenas demanding information from telephone companies and search engines like Google... and even last week with Chertoff saying the government needs to give them (Homeland Security) more authority. I thought our goal was smaller government, but now it seems like they're everywhere...

[Celephais]

How attractive are National ID cards now that we're discussing border control, immigration, and tracking 'guests' within our country?

I'm curious to see if the opinion has changed with regards to ID cards and its relation to national security.

Are you talking about the ones with RFID tags? I personally think that's a terrible idea, it recieved a bit of attention at the latest black hat convention and it really becomes more of a security hole (wireless technology is extremely insecure).

I did see a neat thing on the news about these "x-ray" machines that see through cloths, the only problem they have with them is they literally see through cloths (not color or anything) but you're exposed, they have to seperate men and women to do the scanning. It seemed pretty good to me (they detected plastic baggies w/ water in them on a person).

I don't think anything (even flying naked) would really stop a truely determined terrorist (Injected chemical into bladder couldn't be detected).

[TheEschaton]

Having lived in Africa for the past two years, they have not only National ID cards, but Regional ID cards, for all of SADC (Southern African Development Coouncil). Therefore, all South Africans, Zimbabweans, Namibians, Botswanans, Zambians, Mozambiquans, etc, and so on, and so forth, have the same type of ID, which also serves as a driver's license.

I say apply it to the U.S., with the States. I don't think I was around for the "National ID Card" debate, but the inclusion of biometric data is a natural failsafe, that way, no one can really steal your identity.

Now, where I would start to disagree is if it restricted your freedom of access - if you needed to swipe it when you take books out of the library, when you park your car at new card-accepting meters, when you go on a toll road, when you cross state lines. Make it like a passport, with driver's license added onto it.

And then, as ES said, make it for nationalized healthcare. :-P

-TheE-

[Gan]

Technology is not feasable to equip every ID card in the US with an RFID chip. The cost alone in putting up censors would be insane, not to mention the invasion of privacy with regards to where you are going.

I was more interested as a continuation of our earlier PC debate on National ID cards and their institution a form of ID. Perhaps it could encompass and absorb the state ID required for daily use in all US states.

As I recall, many folks were abhored at the concept of having a national ID card be required for all US citizens. Just a thought. :shrug:

[Anebriated]

I agree with Hulkien. For the most part I feel pretty safe in Philly. The only thing that worries me at all is being smack in the middle of the two biggest targets on the east coast(DC and NYC). Overall its not something I think about often though.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I live in Connecticut, so I'm like eh, what are they going to blow up here? A historical village? Fifty Cent's House?

I take the bus into work and back from work, usually it's just me and two other people on it and they drop me off wherever I please.

I know I'd rather not have someone see me naked when I walk through a scanner at an airport, as well, or see any children I have that way (I'm sure they're screened but who knows if they're some kind of pervert?). I'd likely just never fly if this became the "norm".

I feel safe, but when I go to NYC, and ride subways, I don't. The thing is though, I don't expect to be 100 percent protected. If I die in a Subway or on a plane because of a terrorist attack, so be it. I guess my number was up and it was my time to die. Sure, it sucks, but I don't think that a) I could let my living grind to a halt out of fear and b) I don't think I'd like to give up my freedom of movement and constantly be tracked just so that I can be a little bit safer. I just don't agree with the trading of major freedom for safety from terrorists.

[CrystalTears]

I feel safe in SE Connecticut. Naval base and nuclear power plant nearby, anyone hits the plant, goodbye me. Ah well. I can't afford to spend my life afraid of the shoulda/coulda/woulda's out there. I'd rather be happy and roll with the punches as they come.

I'm all for the national ID's. The more we know about people the better. People take advantage of our freedoms too much to hide in it.

[Ravenstorm]

I feel just as safe as I always do. It's a lot more likely I'll get hit by a car or have a tree fall on me or get shot by another crazy guy like Colin Ferguson than for the big bad terrorists to get me. Hell, just last month in NYC some idiot went on a rampage stabbing three or four people. Two weeks ago in San Diego, three guys with baseball bats attacked five guys because they were gay.

Terrorists? Right wing assholes are more dangerous.

[Sean]

I feel the same as I did before 9/11. I don't think or worry about my security whether it be walking about Newark, NJ at 4am or hanging out in NYC. Shit happens.

[Tromp]

I'm all for the national ID's. The more we know about people the better. People take advantage of our freedoms too much to hide in it.

WTF? Just what our founding fathers drafting the constitution wanted. Give me a break. We can just get GPS implants in our brains so the govertment doesn't have to work to hard to breech personal liberties of privacy.

I'm more worried now that Bush and company have stirred up the hornets nest than I was say post 9/11 pre Iraq occupation. We all live around potential targets. It'll suck if it happens and I do believe it will happen again.

[CrystalTears]

Our founding fathers probably had NO idea what our country would be like now with the internet, planes and atomic bombs. Spare me. It's a stupid ID, not an implant, not a tattoo, not a chip in your brain. An ID.

[Tromp]

Like in addition to a Social Security Card which has been completed exploited from its original purpose?

[DeV]

I feel the same as I did before 9/11. I don't think or worry about my security whether it be walking about Newark, NJ at 4am or hanging out in NYC. Shit happens.What Tijay said applies to the way I feel.

[Anebriated]

I feel just as safe as I always do. It's a lot more likely I'll get hit by a car or have a tree fall on me or get shot by another crazy guy like Colin Ferguson than for the big bad terrorists to get me. Hell, just last month in NYC some idiot went on a rampage stabbing three or four people. Two weeks ago in San Diego, three guys with baseball bats attacked five guys because they were gay.

Terrorists? Right wing assholes are more dangerous.


Yeah, Philly has been having a pretty bad spree of gun violence this year. Something like 230+ gun related deaths since the new year. I'm more worried walking around the city of getting held up(couple of my friends have been held up recently) and shot than I am of a terrorist attack, and im not really that scared of being held up.

[Landrion]

Are you talking about the ones with RFID tags? I personally think that's a terrible idea, it recieved a bit of attention at the latest black hat convention and it really becomes more of a security hole (wireless technology is extremely insecure).

I did see a neat thing on the news about these "x-ray" machines that see through cloths, the only problem they have with them is they literally see through cloths (not color or anything) but you're exposed, they have to seperate men and women to do the scanning. It seemed pretty good to me (they detected plastic baggies w/ water in them on a person).

I don't think anything (even flying naked) would really stop a truely determined terrorist (Injected chemical into bladder couldn't be detected).

For those interested in the x-ray machine, theyre made by rapiscan systems and are referred to as a "scatter back" system.
http://www.rapiscansystems.com/sec1000.html

A SFW picture of what the scans look like is available here.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2005-05-15-airport-xray-bottomstrip_x.htm


Frankly, it looks like a bad photo negative to me.

[TheEschaton]

Our founding fathers probably had NO idea what our country would be like now with the internet, planes and atomic bombs. Spare me. It's a stupid ID, not an implant, not a tattoo, not a chip in your brain. An ID.

While I agree with you for the need for National IDs, it's obviously for different reasons - it cuts out bureacracy, it consolidates services, etc. It should NEVER be for tracking or "knowing shit" about people.

And the above quote is ridiculous. The whole basis of philosophical principles is that they don't change with time. That's the whole point of it - these principles are immutable, no matter what the situation they're applied in, are.

-TheE-

[CrystalTears]

My bad for not stating that when I said "hiding" was in reference to people who are here illegally and use our freedoms to hide here. I'm all for an identification system that is used much like our present ID's only used nationally rather than just in your home state.

And as ridiculous as you find my quote, it's also ridiculous to assume that our founding fathers had anything of our current world in mind, which is why amendments were allowed to change with the times. I'm betting that they never dreamed of a world with devices that listen through walls, or machines that break the sound barrier, or nuclear weapons.

[ElanthianSiren]

Yeah, Philly has been having a pretty bad spree of gun violence this year. Something like 230+ gun related deaths since the new year. I'm more worried walking around the city of getting held up(couple of my friends have been held up recently) and shot than I am of a terrorist attack, and im not really that scared of being held up.


Ditto. One of my neighbors was mugged, broad daylight, walking around Temple. Not cool.

-M

[Back]

If you cower, give into hysteria, or forfeit your way of life, IMO, you're letting them win (you have been terrorized).

This little anecdote tends to come up often in discussions such as these and to me its puzzling.

When does a terrorist win?

Our country, and probably many others, have beefed up security in our airports after 9/11. Does that mean the terrorists have won?

Like, we put our money in vaults because we don’t want burglars to steal it, have the burglars won?

If there is a gang that is known to roam a neighborhood and you avoid that neighborhood has the gang won? Further, if people like the police take steps to remove the gang, has the gang won by making the police take action against them?

If there is a building that drops a loose brick every so often, and you avoid walking past it, and a company goes out of the way to fix it, has the loose brick won? (j/k)

[Jorddyn]

When does a terrorist win?

When the populace feels sufficiently terrorized.


Our country, and probably many others, have beefed up security in our airports after 9/11. Does that mean the terrorists have won?

When it becomes ridiculous, yes, I feel they've won. Of course, one must remember every war has many battles.


Like, we put our money in vaults because we don’t want burglars to steal it, have the burglars won?

Only if we're so terrified of burglars that we sleep naked so that we can store our pajamas in the vault so they don't get stolen.


If there is a gang that is known to roam a neighborhood and you avoid that neighborhood has the gang won?

If it is your neighborhood that has gone to shit, and you stay inside with your doors lock, then yes, they've beat you. If it is me not going to bad neighborhoods of Chicago, then no, because I'm not "at war" with them, and I've no reason to go there in the first place.


Further, if people like the police take steps to remove the gang, has the gang won by making the police take action against them?

They've just started a new battle.


If there is a building that drops a loose brick every so often, and you avoid walking past it, and a company goes out of the way to fix it, has the loose brick won? (j/k)

Nope, but some lucky bastard might win the lawsuit lottery.

Just my opinion. Yours may (and likely will) differ.

Jorddyn

[Gan]

By making you respond to a conservative viewpoint in a political discussion, have I won?

Vice versa?

That reminds me of the game I used to play in kindergarten. "hey look! your shoes are untied!" (when they really werent) And when you look, I say "HA! MADE YOU LOOK!"

I think winning or losing is dictated by the players, not based upon the interpretation of the crowd watching.

Winning or losing depends on whether or not the goals of the 'terrorists' were accomplished.

I think we give them too much credit by saying that their sole purpose is to create a sense of terror into their adversaries.

Their intention is to kill anyone who does not align with their ideology, its the only thing they can comprehend in order to justify the existence of their radical beliefs. If they kill, they win. If they fail, they lose. If we kill them, or prevent them from killing us, we win, they lose.

[TheEschaton]

I wouldn't say their mission is "kill all the infidels". That's their cover story. I'd say they want to push the U.S. out of their business....

...which they are failing VERY miserably at.

-TheE-

[Miss X]

I feel fairly safe in the town I live in, but we have nothing really major here. I do feel nervous on the underground though and around London. I'm about 60 miles away from London though and I'm not a city person so I'm not there often.

In general it is a scary time but I don't want to spend my life looking over my shoulder or waiting to be blown up. I have to admit though, I'd be pretty scared of trans Atlantic flights these days.

[Back]

Two men with one rifle and a car terrorized a tri-state area 2 years ago by sniping random people at different locations. They were caught and will never see the light of day again. Did they win?

A guy runs into a plaza, blows himself up, takes a couple of people with him and hurts a lot more. Isn’t that where the story ends? If you were to say that if there were people who went out of their way to avoid the plaza because of that incident that he won. Well, the fucker is dead and you can’t win when you are dead. Game over, you lose.

[Sean]

A guy runs into a plaza, blows himself up, takes a couple of people with him and hurts a lot more. Isn’t that where the story ends? If you were to say that if there were people who went out of their way to avoid the plaza because of that incident that he won. Well, the fucker is dead and you can’t win when you are dead. Game over, you lose.

Obviously that isn't their belief.

[Numbers]

A guy runs into a plaza, blows himself up, takes a couple of people with him and hurts a lot more. Isn’t that where the story ends? If you were to say that if there were people who went out of their way to avoid the plaza because of that incident that he won. Well, the fucker is dead and you can’t win when you are dead. Game over, you lose.

Except that guy firmly believes that he's performing a glorious act for his god and will be rewarded by being sent to heaven and being surrounded by beautiful virgin women. Because his religion (regardless of how much he and his ilk have twisted and perverted it) says so.

That's one of the reasons why I think religion is one of the most dangerous things on the planet.

[Jorddyn]

I feel fairly safe in the town I live in, but we have nothing really major here. I do feel nervous on the underground though and around London. I'm about 60 miles away from London though and I'm not a city person so I'm not there often.

In general it is a scary time but I don't want to spend my life looking over my shoulder or waiting to be blown up. I have to admit though, I'd be pretty scared of trans Atlantic flights these days.

I actually felt pretty safe on the underground, though going through King's Cross was interesting. I honestly didn't know where we were (our "tour guide" just told us this was where we needed to get off the train) until I realized the whole place felt... uneasy, and she pointed out where we were.

I consider myself incredibly lucky that I was back in the States well before this came into the news. I can imagine myself getting arrested at the airport either for suspicious behavior because I'm so nervous, or arrested for getting so annoyed I start throwing things at people.

Jorddyn

[TheEschaton]

I actually felt pretty safe on the underground, though going through King's Cross was interesting. I honestly didn't know where we were (our "tour guide" just told us this was where we needed to get off the train) until I realized the whole place felt... uneasy, and she pointed out where we were.

Isn't it odd that sites of terrorist attacks are now being interesting side notes on tours now?

I remember feeling that way on the Freedom Walk in Boston..."Gee, I wonder if this guy was ever taking a giant crap in his outdoor toilet in the middle of a Boston winter night, and thinking to himself, 'Hmmm, one day, this place might be of interest to people.'"

-TheE-

[Jorddyn]

Isn't it odd that sites of terrorist attacks are now being interesting side notes on tours now?


It wasn't actually a tour. My mom has a friend who we were staying with, she was our "tour guide", so to speak.

But, well, I suppose even if it was a tour, it wouldn't be much different than people touring New York and stopping at Ground Zero.

Jorddyn

[Back]

As for the security cameras, tough to have things both ways. Safety benefits come at the cost of some (public) privacy.

On this particular issue I don’t blame certain entities. A good example being the airlines. These are not publicly owned companies, so they certainly have a right to screen their customers. The seller has the right not to sell to anyone they don’t want to sell to. No shirt, no shoes, no common sense, no sale.

ATMs, convenience stores, shopping malls... hell, if I owed a 7-11, you bet your ass I’d be taping the front door 24/7. So thats a non-issue in my eyes.

As far as the State? Well, hell, we already have cameras checking speeders. There are two sides to that of which I fall on the safer side. If one camera catches one person speeding that could have saved one life...

In public transportation, if one camera catches one person who commits a crime against another person... hey, in both cases I’m fine.

There is no way I would allow a state owned camera in my home, however.

I guess when we are talking about public activity, I’m ok with cameras. (hopefully some camera monitor won’t post pics of me pissing down a back alley or having a fling in the park on the internet)

[zhelas]

You can't walk through Time Square and not be on video tape somewhere.

[Hulkein]

Right wing assholes are more dangerous.

They just hate gays, probably, don't know how politically motivated their actions are.

[Hulkein]

Ditto. One of my neighbors was mugged, broad daylight, walking around Temple. Not cool.

-M

That's North Philadelphia for ya, heh.

[Ravenstorm]

They just hate gays, probably, don't know how politically motivated their actions are.

That goes without saying. But I meant the religious right, not the political.

[Hulkein]

Were they actually beaten because the people are religious?

Not trying to nitpick here, but there are a lot of people who aren't religious who just hate gays. San Diego doesn't seem like a place it would happen, though.

[Latrinsorm]

No. Whenever anything bad happens anywhere, it's the fault of a religion or religious people.

[TheEschaton]

Well, if people want to make generalizations such as "Most terrorism is done by Arabic looking people", I'd be willing to go with the generalization that "Most violence in history has been done for religious reasons". ;)

-TheE-

[Ravenstorm]

Not trying to nitpick here, but there are a lot of people who aren't religious who just hate gays.

Let me quote Matt Foreman who spoke in response to what happened in San Diego. Also, it should be noted two of the three arrested were teenagers.


"The hatred fueling these terrible attacks is not innate; it is learned. And who is teaching it? Leaders of the right wing, who use their vast resources, media networks and affiliated pulpits to blame lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people for all the ills of society," said Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. "We have witnessed years of anti-LGBT organizing in California, and violence is an obvious and potent outgrowth of such malicious activity. It poisons culture and inspires some to believe that it is open season on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.

So actually, while I meant the religious right, I'll lay fault on the political right as well especially since they're almost indistinguishable in some cases. More than one politician has recently compared homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality. We're responsible for the downfall of society, didn't you hear? Oh, and hurricane Katrina. When leaders preach how immoral and dangerous gay people are to society, it prompts violence. Hate doesn't breed in a vacuum.



No. Whenever anything bad happens anywhere, it's the fault of a religion or religious people.

It's not the fault of Gene Robinson, no. I wouldn't call him the religious right however. If you can't differentiate between religious people in general and the far right, that's your problem. If you want to defend them, feel free. I won't be bothering to argue with you though.

[Back]

My favorite response to Raven: Ok, we get it!

Not to diminish the issue you are justly concerned with of which I do sympathize and despise the protagonists of.

But if you aren’t careful, you are going to turn National Security into a platform for a select group.

[Ravenstorm]

Sorry about that. I was just responding to follow up questions so it's not my fault! But it is off the main topic. My answer stands though. I feel as safe as I always have.

[DeV]

In other news: A federal judge has ruled that the federal government's warrantless wiretapping program is unconstitutional and ordered it ended immediately.

Edited to add that yes, Kefka beat me to it.

[Ravenstorm]

Now that makes me feel safer.

[Hulkein]

Now that makes me feel safer.

Why, planning on flying any planes into buildings? If not, why would the government want to listen to you talk to Arkans about spring fashion, anyway?

[Apathy]

I wouldn't say their mission is "kill all the infidels". That's their cover story. I'd say they want to push the U.S. out of their business....

...which they are failing VERY miserably at.

-TheE-

If that's the case they're stupid. Their (only) business is our business, and we're their best client. Bad things happen when you mistreat your best customer.

In related story UK: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/17/uk.terror.plot/index.html and US: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/17/airport.evac.ap/index.html

I'm sure more of these will pop up all over the place. I find it interesting that its in Podunk, WV.

[sst]

When does a terrorist win?

When people stop fighting back and let them have their way.