Israel vs Syria/Iran/Lebanon/Palestine?

[Lassiter 506]

I woke up this morning to extended news coverage regarding the conflict in Lebanon and Gaza. When I heard of the 8 soliders killed, and two others kidnapped in a Hezbollah raid, it was immediately followed by the phrase "Disproportionate response." I'm not sure if any of the European nations or Russia would have done differently if the kidnapped troops had been theirs.

Not that I disagree with Bush in supporting Israel's right to defend it's territory... but why does the US always seem to give the green light to whatever Israel does ? I'm not trying to spawn a racial dispute here, but my background is in finance and biochemistry, and adimittedly do not know enough of middle east history to form an educated opinion. Some of what I have read is contradictory and I still do not understand the historical base of this conflict, and how Syria, Iran, and Lebanon fit in.

[Daniel]

The Israeli Lobby

[Krendeli]

Hezbollah is a terrorist group that operates out of southern Lebanon. Syria for many years was the puppetmaster of the Lebanese government and allowed the Hezbollah to operate unchecked. Iran backs anybody fighting to get rid of Israel and is an ally of Syria. The Palestinians are fighting to regain the land that was granted to Israel as part of the WWII break up of the British Empire in the Middlea East.

[Lassiter 506]

"Iran backs anybody fighting to get rid of Israel .."

Part of my originial question was, why is this ?

[HarmNone]

One reason: Iran is an Islamic country (primarily Shiite). Islam and Judaism are like oil and water. They just don't mix.

[Artha]

I think the biggest beef is that Israel right now contains Jerusalem, the holiest city of the three biggest religions. Read more about that here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_significance_of_Jerusalem). The fact that it's owned by Israel (the Jews) after being promised to the Palestinians (the Muslims) by the British doesn't make a lot of the area Muslims happy.

[Drew]

Of course, the jews had it first. You don't see any Christians trying to take the city from them.

[Androidpk]

You don't see any Christians trying to take the city from them.

Not anymore :)

[Stanley Burrell]

I think the biggest beef is that Israel right now contains Jerusalem, the holiest city of the three biggest religions. Read more about that here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_significance_of_Jerusalem). The fact that it's owned by Israel (the Jews) after being promised to the Palestinians (the Muslims) by the British doesn't make a lot of the area Muslims happy.

New Jerusalem, not Old Jerusalem, ty.

[Kuyuk]

<<Hezbollah is a terrorist group>>


Bzzt. T word used already to make things right.

Not that I know, or even care about it. I just think it's funny how the T word comes up when defining people we[USA] dont like.

Continue Israel.

K.

[Artha]

Hezbollah is definitely a terrorist group.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hezbollah.jpg

[Kuyuk]

A picture with guys with missile launchers deems them terrorist?


Nah. But I'm still not saying they're not.



K.

[RichardCranium]

Not that I disagree with Bush in supporting Israel's right to defend it's territory... but why does the US always seem to give the green light to whatever Israel does ?

Those who bless Israel will in turn be blessed by God.

[Stanley Burrell]

Those who bless Israel will in turn be blessed by God.

I wish someone would tell that to the Messianic Jews.

[Androidpk]

Yeah, just because a group carries out suicide bombings against non-military targets doesn't mean they're a terrorist group. /sarcasm off

[Stanley Burrell]

Yeah, just because a group carries out suicide bombings against non-military targets doesn't mean they're a terrorist group. /sarcasm off

Was that a response to my post, er?

[Khariz]

Probably that Kuyuk schmuck.

Even insinuating that Hezbollah isn't a terrorist group is laughable.

[Androidpk]

Was that a response to my post, er?

No.

[Stanley Burrell]

Cool beans!

[Stanley Burrell]

One reason: Iran is an Islamic country (primarily Shiite). Islam and Judaism are like oil and water. They just don't mix.

Fanatacism and reform have strong repulsion, period.

[Kuyuk]

I hate being a schmuck.



K.

[Back]

The Israelis are smart and Hezbollah is stupid. If Hezbollah wants to open up everything they’ve got, right now, Israel will break them in two and thats the end of Hezbollah.

With the exception of Syria and Iran, no other middle eastern country wants anything to do with this, including Lebanon’s legitimate government.

[Tsa`ah]

One reason: Iran is an Islamic country (primarily Shiite). Islam and Judaism are like oil and water. They just don't mix.

They actually mixed very well for centuries.


I think the biggest beef is that Israel right now contains Jerusalem, the holiest city of the three biggest religions. Read more about that here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_significance_of_Jerusalem). The fact that it's owned by Israel (the Jews) after being promised to the Palestinians (the Muslims) by the British doesn't make a lot of the area Muslims happy.

You're a bit mixed up there. Under British rule the term "Palestinian" referred to anyone living (native) in the area. This included Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Druze.

It wasn't until Jewish settlement and development began that neighboring nation states began having a problem with an area that pretty much no one wanted to trouble with, but posed plenty of free travel and possible expansion once the brits left that the problems began to arise.

A very small number of "Palestinian" people are actually "Palestinian". They're actually Serian, Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Saudi ... etc. Large numbers of them are refugees, some just came to fight ... who knows.

[HarmNone]

Yes, Tsa`ah, they did mix well once. However, that's been many years and much water under the bridge ago. The rift between the two is so deep now it's hard to imagine how it will ever be mended. It's really a shame, since so many individuals on boths side of this idiocy are well aware that there is no reason for the hatred...no reason for the killing.

[StrayRogue]

Religion at it's finest.

[Apotheosis]

The fucked thing is that the controlling government's (Syria, Lebanon), do nothing to keep these groups in check.

[Stanley Burrell]

Even briefer:

Judaism and Islam != Israel and Arabs.

[TheEschaton]

We always support Israel because of some psychological guilt for not caring about the Holocaust til it was too late.

It's sort of like the kid who was abused as a child and then gets off on murder charges as an adult because he came from an unfit environment. It sucks.

Environment does help determine what and who you are as a person, or in this case, as a people. However, in the end, personal responsibility is tantamount, and using environment is not an excuse.

Personally, I find it hilarious (well, not hilarious. Maybe ironic) that it was a Christian nation, operating largely on misguided Christian values, that put the Jews through a mass genocide, and then the Jews taking it out on the Muslims.

I like most Jewish people I meet - except even the nicest Jewish people I know tend to be staunchly conservative and snappy about this particular subject. It's like discussing Kashmir with some of my Indian elders. I don't claim to begin to understand that mess either.

"But uppa, Pakistanis...they look just like us."
"Yes."
"And most of them migrated from India to Pakistan during the Partition."
"Yes"
"And in fact, it was one country before the Partition?"
"Yes."
"Then we are really fighting our own brothers and sisters, the same people as umma and auntie and uncle?"
"No....they are infidel scum! India must have security against those Islamic blasphemers!!!"

Oy vey.

-TheE-

[Tsa`ah]

Religion at it's finest.

If you believe Religion had anything to do with hostilities, you're a bit more than jaded on the subject.

The conflicts had and really have nothing to do with religion, they're about regional power and control. Religion is, and has been, nothing more than a tool to incite.

Sure, there are the zealots that fight in the name of their religion, but they only do so because a small controlling (not very religious) power core feeds them all the religious hatred they can eat.

[Artha]

Personally, I find it hilarious (well, not hilarious. Maybe ironic) that it was a Christian nation, operating largely on misguided Christian values
Nazi Germany was absolutely not Christian. The SS destroyed many a church, and I'm pretty sure there are some Hitler quotes floating around about how he'd like to wipe out Christianity.

[ElanthianSiren]

There are zealots on both sides of this issue, and the Israeli government isn't exactly lamb white either (Sharon's armored bulldozers running through civilians/Sabra and Chatila comes to mind).

My dad has a friend from Beirut (initial strike), who lost her mother, father, and sister. She was the only one not home when the Israeli's attacked, and her family was not military. The people who really pay under this kind of strong arm/muscling/terrorism are the civilians, especially when we start painting every person/target in a country with the broad brush of terrorist! because we personally favor the striking country.

One can argue that we should give Israel's newest activities the benefit of the doubt, that this isn't excessive force for two kidnapped people. I just can't see how kidnapping two warrants dropping munitions on civilians -- Israeli, Palestinian, Lebanese, American, Chechen, or otherwise -- unless your goal is further reaching than you claim. In that case, let's trim away the bullshit and admit that you're as out for anihilation as they are.

-M
edited because I really really really need to learn to spell correctly the first time through.

[Jorddyn]

One can argue that we should give Israel's newest activities the benefit of the doubt, that this isn't excessive force for two kidnapped people. I just can't see how kidnapping two warrants dropping munitions on civilians -- Israeli, Palestinian, Lebanese, American, Chechen, or otherwise -- unless your goal is further reaching than you claim. In that case, let's trim away the bullshit and admit that you're as out for anihilation as they are.


I am not out for anihilation. If some random person kidnaps my niece, nephew, mother, or a few select friends and I would start taking out their family and friends, given the chance (and artillery).

If someone I loathe with all of my being does the same, I'll take out large swaths of anyone and everyone they might know.

Alright, I admit it. I'm not this tough. Just trying to say that one doesn't have to be "out for anihilation" to fight back.

Jorddyn, just saying

[Artha]

To put it all in context, Jorddyn's picture:

http://www.moviecitynews.com/arrays/images/2003/punisher.jpg

[Jorddyn]

To put it all in context, Jorddyn's picture:


Dammit, where'd you find that?

Jorddyn, needs a shave

[Tsa`ah]

If it were just kidnappings I would agree.

It also has to do with recent rpg attacks, a long history of suicide bombings and decades of "eradication" rhetoric.

To say it's over kidnappings is more than an understatement.

[ElanthianSiren]

If it were just kidnappings I would agree.

It also has to do with recent rpg attacks, a long history of suicide bombings and decades of "eradication" rhetoric.

To say it's over kidnappings is more than an understatement.

It's actually back and forth attacks that have occurred for years. Neither side is innocent IMO and neither side deserves to have their actions tolerated/condoned (again IMO). It is a good example of what happens when two states take up Jorddyn's mantra.

-M
freakin spelling once more.

[Tsa`ah]

I've never advocated that either side was innocent.

In fact, had someone taken out Sharon and Arafat before either had a chance to clinch power ... most of the regional issues would not be issues today.

[ElanthianSiren]

I've never advocated that either side was innocent.

In fact, had someone taken out Sharon and Arafat before either had a chance to clinch power ... most of the regional issues would not be issues today.

I didn't mean to say that you had. What I was saying, in both posts, was that the history of the conflict is one of reprisals, but by definition, a reprisal war indicates that neither side can be innocent.

I agree, as history shows the cultural groups living in the region just fine prior to the politicking.

-M

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I'm ditto on everything that Tsa'ah said.. you can't look at just one side. Israel hasn't been perfect, but as I said in the last thread, pretty much all of the Arab nations would be happy to pick up where Hitler left off.

[Back]

There is one distinction that I can think of off the top of my head that separates Israel from everyone who is anti-Israel. Israel does not chant “death-to-anti-Israel”.

As this is getting played out on the world stage, there is certainly no mistaking now that Iran and Syria are directly helping Hezbollah as evidenced by the weapons being used. Yet other arab nations are calling on Hezbollah to stop including Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and of course Iraq and Afghanistan.

Hezbollah, while having seats in Lebanon’s parliament, has decided on its own to start a war with Israel. That would be like the Republicans deciding to start a war in Iraq all on their own, which would never fly here. This is why, on the world stage, Hezbollah will never get backed by any other sovereign nation in the world and why Syria and Iran will be even more isolated than they are now, in their own region, for supporting a non-sovereign entity to make decisions for a sovereign state.

Thinking about the part Iraq plays in all this, as it sits between Iran and Syria, is at one time Saddam although a bad man was a buffer from a sh'ia crescent through Iran, Syria and Lebanon and literally kept Iran at bay with an equally strong army. Now that he is gone, the sh'ia are in power, sympathetic to Iran and Syria in ideology, the country is still in chaos, which just strengthens the Sh'ia crescent running right through the middle east.

[Stanley Burrell]

Nazi Germany was absolutely not Christian. The SS destroyed many a church, and I'm pretty sure there are some Hitler quotes floating around about how he'd like to wipe out Christianity.

Not to be inflammatory, but there are definitely speeches a la Adolf Hitler using Christianity as a mind tool to sway audiences that would hear its mention. Not that I disagree that the fully functional SS didn't operate in a fashion to non-distinguish almost everything from everything.

[TheEschaton]

To back up what Stan said - Hitler considered himself a devout Catholic and often used Christian rhetoric in his speeches.

Why his SS put Catholics in the concentration camps? Who knows? Maybe he wanted to be the only Catholic. I think he probably realized that it was better, politically, to put Catholics in the camps then say, Lutherans.

-TheE-

[Kefka]

Damn... I'm reading in the news that we're charging $150 to rescue our people from Lebanon. How screwed up is that?

also...

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74078


BEIRUT: Israel switched gears in its military campaign against Lebanon Monday and Tuesday, launching a series of debilitating air strikes against privately owned factories throughout the country and dealing a devastating blow to an economy already paralyzed by a week of hits on residential areas and crucial infrastructure.

The production facilities of at least five companies in key industrial sectors - including the country's largest dairy farm, Liban Lait; a paper mill; a packaging firm and a pharmaceutical plant - have been disabled or completely destroyed. Industry insiders say the losses will cripple the economy for decades to come.

"I think the picture will be much worse than we can possible imagine when the whole thing ends, but the direct damage from yesterday's attacks to the industrial sector alone will take years to recover from," said Wajid al-Bisri, the vice-president of the Lebanese Association of Industrialists (LAI).


Just damn!

[Stanley Burrell]

Damn... I'm reading in the news that we're charging $150 to rescue our people from Lebanon. How screwed up is that?!

I'd say it reigns supreme in tangent of the quarter billion dollars the United States pumps into Iraq each and every day, er?

I would also automatically associate any Yankee (non-baseball term) who is willingly loitering Beirut as being sketchy, at best, in the mental health facilities.

[Artha]

I guess it depends on who you ask.

Hitler - not a fan of Christianity (http://answers.org/history/hitquote.html).
Hitler - devout Christian (http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm)
Hitler - Neither (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html)

[Stanley Burrell]

Well, yeah.

I guess I meant those who like less crushed spirits and more not broken bones.

EDIT - Ah, ah. Thought you meant in reference to U.S. citizens kickin' it Beirut.

But on the subject of:


I guess it depends on who you ask.

Hitler - not a fan of Christianity.
Hitler - devout Christian
Hitler - Neither

I would say that enough censorship and re-re-relearning of history exists to definitely dispell the middle and most probably debate the latter.

[StrayRogue]

Hitler was raised Roman Catholic, but eventually rejected the teachings of the church. However he never waged war on what he viewed as traditional Christianity. He had, in fact, positivie views on both the religion and Jesus. Hitler never ended his church membership, but according to Albert Speer, "he had no real attachment to it."

This of course was his open opinion. What he believed in secret, is something that people have speculated on. He spoke highly of Jesus and Co. in Mein Kampf, but Goebbels, Speer, and Bormann Joseph Goebbels (Hitler's closest), for example, noted in a diary entry in 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

[Back]

Thinking about the part Iraq plays in all this, as it sits between Iran and Syria, is at one time Saddam although a bad man was a buffer from a sh'ia crescent through Iran, Syria and Lebanon and literally kept Iran at bay with an equally strong army. Now that he is gone, the sh'ia are in power, sympathetic to Iran and Syria in ideology, the country is still in chaos, which just strengthens the Sh'ia crescent running right through the middle east.

If this current situation isn’t enough of an indicator of this administration’s failures, I don’t know what is.

History does not even need to catch up to present day to show that the invasion of Iraq was a complete and utter mistake.

[Sean of the Thread]

If this current situation isn’t enough of an indicator of this administration’s failures, I don’t know what is.

History does not even need to catch up to present day to show that the invasion of Iraq was a complete and utter mistake.


ROFL. fucking rofl.

[Back]

ROFL. fucking rofl.

Well, I see we are finally on the same page.

Unless that was some kind of argument?

[Hulkein]

He's probably laughing at your rambling response to yourself.

[Back]

He's probably laughing at your rambling response to yourself.

For some reason I can’t post unless I quote, so I chose the most pertinent point that related to my comment in this thread which happened to be my own.

Thanks for answering for him though and not disagreeing.