Was the 2004 Election Stolen?

[Back]

Was the 2004 Election Stolen? (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen)
Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House. BY ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.


The complete article, with Web-only citations, follows. Talk and read about it in our National Affairs blog, or see exclusive documents, sources, charts and commentary.

Like many Americans, I spent the evening of the 2004 election watching the returns on television and wondering how the exit polls, which predicted an overwhelming victory for John Kerry, had gotten it so wrong. By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded. Republicans derided anyone who expressed doubts about Bush's victory as nut cases in ''tinfoil hats,'' while the national media, with few exceptions, did little to question the validity of the election. The Washington Post immediately dismissed allegations of fraud as ''conspiracy theories,''(1) and The New York Times declared that ''there is no evidence of vote theft or errors on a large scale.''(2)

But despite the media blackout, indications continued to emerge that something deeply troubling had taken place in 2004. Nearly half of the 6 million American voters living abroad(3) never received their ballots -- or received them too late to vote(4) -- after the Pentagon unaccountably shut down a state-of-the-art Web site used to file overseas registrations.(5) A consulting firm called Sproul & Associates, which was hired by the Republican National Committee to register voters in six battleground states,(6) was discovered shredding Democratic registrations.(7) In New Mexico, which was decided by 5,988 votes,(8) malfunctioning machines mysteriously failed to properly register a presidential vote on more than 20,000 ballots.(9) Nationwide, according to the federal commission charged with implementing election reforms, as many as 1 million ballots were spoiled by faulty voting equipment -- roughly one for every 100 cast.(10)

The reports were especially disturbing in Ohio, the critical battleground state that clinched Bush's victory in the electoral college. Officials there purged tens of thousands of eligible voters from the rolls, neglected to process registration cards generated by Democratic voter drives, shortchanged Democratic precincts when they allocated voting machines and illegally derailed a recount that could have given Kerry the presidency. A precinct in an evangelical church in Miami County recorded an impossibly high turnout of ninety-eight percent, while a polling place in inner-city Cleveland recorded an equally impossible turnout of only seven percent. In Warren County, GOP election officials even invented a nonexistent terrorist threat to bar the media from monitoring the official vote count.(11)

Any election, of course, will have anomalies. America's voting system is a messy patchwork of polling rules run mostly by county and city officials. ''We didn't have one election for president in 2004,'' says Robert Pastor, who directs the Center for Democracy and Election Management at American University. ''We didn't have fifty elections. We actually had 13,000 elections run by 13,000 independent, quasi-sovereign counties and municipalities.''

But what is most anomalous about the irregularities in 2004 was their decidedly partisan bent: Almost without exception they hurt John Kerry and benefited George Bush. After carefully examining the evidence, I've become convinced that the president's party mounted a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people in 2004. Across the country, Republican election officials and party stalwarts employed a wide range of illegal and unethical tactics to fix the election. A review of the available data reveals that in Ohio alone, at least 357,000 voters, the overwhelming majority of them Democratic, were prevented from casting ballots or did not have their votes counted in 2004(12) -- more than enough to shift the results of an election decided by 118,601 votes.(13) (See Ohio's Missing Votes) In what may be the single most astounding fact from the election, one in every four Ohio citizens who registered to vote in 2004 showed up at the polls only to discover that they were not listed on the rolls, thanks to GOP efforts to stem the unprecedented flood of Democrats eager to cast ballots.(14) And that doesn?t even take into account the troubling evidence of outright fraud, which indicates that upwards of 80,000 votes for Kerry were counted instead for Bush. That alone is a swing of more than 160,000 votes -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House.(15)

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Hoo ha. Long article. A little windy but seems to be well sourced. Some people will see who the author is and immediately dismiss it, which is stupid because there are important things to learn here about our voting system and how it can, and has been manipulated.

Does not matter which side of the aisle you are on, its a serious issue. If the party I put my hand in with did this kind of stuff I would be just as angry.

[Gan]

While I agree that having independant sites under independant management with vote tallying machines that are not uniform is something that I would like to see changed. (states rights vs. federal oversight and uniformity)

I however do not buy into the 'conspiracy' of the fixed election. Was it perfect? No. But it was pretty close to the same process that has elected government officials in the past, which was good enough then, it should be good enough now until a more uniform method can be achieved.

If you cast doubt on the process for 2004, then you should cast doubt on the process for every election processed that way historically. Just stopping at 2004, or even 2000 is just succumbing to the partisan games that raise their ugly head during election seasons.

[Some Rogue]

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Courtesy of the World of Warcraft forums

[Some Rogue]

Yeah, I'd expect a Kennedy to know about voter fraud. Didn't Jack buy his election with Chicago mobsters?

[Sean]

Shit happens, it's no longer 2004, move on.

[Valthissa]

our Friday night group discussed the Kennedy article but it was generally dismissed because salon.com (a somewhat liberal site) had published an article challenging the 'facts' as presented by Kennedy.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/03/kennedy/index_np.html

C/Valth

[Hulkein]

Get a life.

[radamanthys]

Wow... same rhetoric from 2000.... At least come up with some new tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. The old "he didn't really win" is sooo last election.


After carefully examining the evidence, I've become convinced that the president's party mounted a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people in 2004.

Yea.... Vast right wing conspiracy... go!

Please.

[Makkah]

Rollingstone has a decent article in the new issue regarding the 2004 election...

[GSTamral]

Chad, Robert F. Kennedy as a guide to monitor voter fraud? Somehow, you're going to have to accept reality. Vote tampering is equally prevalent on both sides of the fence. A study on the 2000 election showed that deceased people preferred Gore to Bush by a nearly 1.8 to 1 margin, which may not seem so significant if not for the fact that more the a million dead people voted. I'm sure if the same research was done, you'd find a million or more dead people voting in 2004, and who knows who they voted for. Maybe the dead preferred Bush this time around. And odd that Kennedy sees so much in Ohio when Kerry did not. In 2000, entire overseas military bases had votes discounted because of a clerical error with the Saudi postmaster. I don't see Kennedy laying claim to that as a means of voter fraud. There were a significant number of those votes going to Florida, which could have upset the balance significantly. I also don't see Kennedy railing at his fellow democratic pollsters who were handing out pre-filled votes to members of a Native Indian tribe in Florida, despite it being caught on video.
Somehow, you're going to have to accept the reality that Bush mobilized the religious right wing, got an unbelievable turnout from the religious right, and won the election. Exit polling is an admittedly bias means of sampling, because people can choose not to give out information on who they voted for. Young people are more likely to share their opinion than older people. Young people are generally more to the left than old people. There were more blocs of ABB people who were very vocal, and more likely to participate in exit polling.
Furthermore, the margin of the popular vote was in excess of 3 million votes, not 118,601. That was only the difference in Ohio.
Not to mention, democrats have another chance to win in 2008. If Rudy G gets the nod (and I hope he does), it might again be a challenge to win, because other than Hillary, there is no democrat with current mass appeal, and she may have a bit too much dirty laundry still hanging around to be comfortable in the lead position in the party. As much as I disagree with Obama's views, he might be an excellent future candidate, although I'm not sure we're ready to elect an African American president. In truth, other than Rudy G, I don't see a candidate on either side who inspires more positive thoughts than negative.

[FinallyDomesticated]

I do agree that it is good to study and learn from elections, just like any other systems and processes. We can learn how to better handle and deal with things.

However, whenever someone loses - whether its the chubby kid trying to limbo or a politician running for office - it is inevitable that someone is immediately going to look around and see who they can blame. We teach little children to call this behavior bad sportsmanship.

Bush is our president - like it or not. Some people just need to get over it. Their time would be better spent doing something positive such as convincing the obscenely huge numbers of people who didn't even bother to vote to actually show up next time around.

[Parkbandit]

Hoo ha. Long article. A little windy but seems to be well sourced. Some people will see who the author is and immediately dismiss it, which is stupid because there are important things to learn here about our voting system and how it can, and has been manipulated.

Does not matter which side of the aisle you are on, its a serious issue. If the party I put my hand in with did this kind of stuff I would be just as angry.

You couldn't BE more full of shit if you actually tried to be.

Seriously, I really think you've gone off the deep end, referencing a piece of fiction from Kennedy as anything but bullshit. I am sure if pressed, we could find some Republican saying "Even though the Democrats lied and cheated, we still prevailed".

Holy shit, you never cease to amaze me. Now all we need is Warriorbird chiming in on how perfect the Democratic Party is and this cluster fuck will be complete.

[Wezas]

In truth, other than Rudy G, I don't see a candidate on either side who inspires more positive thoughts than negative.

So if Rudy runs, you might vote this time?

[GSTamral]

So if Rudy runs, you might vote this time?

Yes

[Wezas]

So if Rudy runs, you might vote this time?


Yes

Just in case there's some board glitch later and messages get deleted.

[Numbers]

Paul Reubens '08.

http://www.perkydesigns.com/Pee_Wee_herman-2.jpg

[Sean of the Thread]

You couldn't BE more full of shit if you actually tried to be.

Seriously, I really think you've gone off the deep end, referencing a piece of fiction from Kennedy as anything but bullshit. I am sure if pressed, we could find some Republican saying "Even though the Democrats lied and cheated, we still prevailed".

Holy shit, you never cease to amaze me. Now all we need is Warriorbird chiming in on how perfect the Democratic Party is and this cluster fuck will be complete.

Welcome to 18 months ago. Blacklash lost it long ago.

[Gan]

Thank goodness I have my foil hat on.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3/3strangedays/CHEATIESWITHBOVINEEXCREMENT.jpg

[Tsa`ah]

...

I think I developed an aneurysm trying to read that "wall-o-text". Luckily I stopped by the third line when I realized who posted it.

More line breaks, less laptop breaking/cat killing (or threats to kill cats)/visiting high schools to talk to jocks about the sexual orientation of their team mates/turn off the wi-fi hacker tracker radar.

Heh ... and learn to vote before spouting off in political threads.

[Makkah]

<<I think I developed an aneurysm trying to read that "wall-o-text". Luckily I stopped by the third line when I realized who posted it.>>

LOL @ you being too dumb to read a name first.

[GSTamral]

I think I developed an aneurysm trying to read that "wall-o-text". Luckily I stopped by the third line when I realized who posted it.

More line breaks, less laptop breaking/cat killing (or threats to kill cats)/visiting high schools to talk to jocks about the sexual orientation of their team mates/turn off the wi-fi hacker tracker radar.

Heh ... and learn to vote before spouting off in political threads.

More understanding the difference between voting for other ballots but not the president/less being a fanatical zionist/ less getting fired for incompetence and explaining it as philosophical differences between you and your boss.

Glad we understand each other.

[Daniel]

br3wnd!!!!111!!

[Tsa`ah]

More understanding the difference between voting for other ballots but not the president/less being a fanatical zionist/ less getting fired for incompetence and explaining it as philosophical differences between you and your boss.

Glad we understand each other.

1. You spent months spewing partisan rhetoric and placing blame on a democratic system for your inability to live above your financial means. Essentially claiming your financial inabilities were not of your own short comings.

2. After months of spewing partisan rhetoric; you did not cast a vote for a presidential candidate despite there being more than 2 choices.

3. A Zionist refers to a person that supports Zionism ... a notion that support and loyalty to the Israeli state supercedes loyalty to any other State. Please leave your Saudi education behind, because it is apparent that you can't differentiate between a Jew in the US and a Zionist Jew in the US. Do note that I've never expressed support for the Israeli state and pick which one I am from there. Better yet, exhale and forget to inhale.

4. Incompetence would denote that I was incapable of fulfilling the responsibilities of the position I held. It is rather unfortunate, for a person in your position, that your incapable of understanding that my results in the short time in that position exceeded expectation by a rather large margin. I don't play office politics and I never play the color game. Me getting fired for refusal to terminate good employees is far from incompetent, it's called a strong moral fibre which I'm unwilling to compromise ... especially for antisemitic jackoffs such as yourself.

5. The outcome of me being fired for "incompetence" as you put it, has landed me a position that pays more, work less, and hey ... I own my own business now. Life has turned out pretty good for this voting incompetent.

Now in the future ... don't spout off at the mouth over political subjects and then admit to not voting. Don't fabricate stories about how badass you are with teenagers. Learn the differences between a normal everyday working Jew and normal everyday working Zionist (you know those evil Jews out to screw you out of every dime, and take over the global political climate through backhanded behind the scenes maneuvers).

Maybe, just maybe, I'll contact my super secret Jew network and tell them it's ok for you to buy a home outside of your financial capabilities, not because you don't make enough, but because you don't know how to manage your own money. Though, I doubt you make enough and I doubt you do more in the shipping industry than sort boxes and cry about your incredibly small penis and inability to score with (select gender here).

[Drew2]

Get a life.
^^^

[Warriorbird]

If you cast doubt on the process for 2004, then you should cast doubt on the process for every election processed that way historically.

I do. Democrat or Republican. It goes back to Kennedy and Nixon both cheating their damn assess off.

[GSTamral]

Incompetence would denote that I was incapable of fulfilling the responsibilities of the position I held. It is rather unfortunate, for a person in your position, that your incapable of understanding that my results in the short time in that position exceeded expectation by a rather large margin. I don't play office politics and I never play the color game. Me getting fired for refusal to terminate good employees is far from incompetent, it's called a strong moral fibre which I'm unwilling to compromise ... especially for antisemitic jackoffs such as yourself.

Yes, because you obviously exceeded expectations so much that management obviously still felt the need to micromanage your staff for you. Last I remember, business units that are doing well are generally left away from firings, layoffs, and anything else that might lower morale. Interesting, however, that you and not H.R was in charge of th actual process of terminating an employee, and even odder than you somehow had the authority to refuse your boss's wishes, as somehow, you, and not he/she, had the final say on the matter. So you were fired because your boss didn't have the authority to fire an employee, and requested that you do it, and when you refused, he had no power to exercise authority on your employees himself, but could only get rid of you instead.

What incredible levels of authority you had as the ultimate decision maker on your employees' careers, even overriding your boss's authority. Last I remembner, I had to go up the chain of command, not down, to even begin the process of terminating someone, even if they were 2 or 3 grades below me on the corporate scale, and the process of firing an hourly or full time hub worker/driver is even more difficult.

Yea… but what you said definitely sounds plausible. I stand corrected on your competence.

[Back]

our Friday night group discussed the Kennedy article but it was generally dismissed because salon.com (a somewhat liberal site) had published an article challenging the 'facts' as presented by Kennedy.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/03/kennedy/index_np.html

C/Valth

Yep, read that article. It seems Farhad Manjoo has been on the case since that election and has written many articles against the charges since as he states in this article.

Its an interesting article and has good points. Manjoo even agrees with Kennedy on some points... but not every point. He does not account for the use of exit polls being used to detect fraud in foreign elections. He agrees for the most part on disenfranchisement and uses singular (one person opinion) sources for the most part.

I don’t care about past elections dating back into the 1800s. Or even the 1970s when Nixon resigned before being impeached. I’m concerned with now. If elections are hijacked, its not the will of the people.

[Gan]

I don’t care about past elections dating back into the 1800s. Or even the 1970s when Nixon resigned before being impeached. I’m concerned with now. If elections are hijacked, its not the will of the people.

Of course you dont. You only seek to place blame where it fits your conspiracy theories and consternation against the current administration.

:deadhorse:

[Back]

Of course you dont. You only seek to place blame where it fits your conspiracy theories and consternation against the current administration.

I just read the news every day, man. Thats all. That you don’t take issue with current headlines based on what kind of bullshit your party spews is the real :deadhorse:.

Small government = telling you what you should believe.

[Gan]

I just read the news every day, man. Thats all. That you don’t take issue with current headlines based on what kind of bullshit your party spews is the real :deadhorse:.

Small government = telling you what you should believe.

If that were truly the case, the title of your thread would not be:



Was the 2004 Election Stolen?

I think you have that mixed up. Nobody tells me what I should believe. I watch and listen to the news from an unbiased source as possible, unlike you're favorite moveon.org type information resources.

[Back]

If that were truly the case, the title of your thread would not be:



I think you have that mixed up. Nobody tells me what I should believe. I watch and listen to the news from an unbiased source as possible, unlike you're favorite moveon.org type information resources.

The title of this thread is the title of an article, which I posted.

An open question. Thats all.

Some of the responses say enough about who posted them.

The same with the rebuttals.

I was not even born when voting scams started so I cannot say or do much about them. But as I live and breathe today, if there are scams, on EITHER side, I will speak out about them.

I guess thats where we differ.

[Alfster]

Backlash is retarded.

[Tsa`ah]

Yes, because you obviously exceeded expectations so much that management obviously still felt the need to micromanage your staff for you. Last I remember, business units that are doing well are generally left away from firings, layoffs, and anything else that might lower morale. Interesting, however, that you and not H.R was in charge of th actual process of terminating an employee, and even odder than you somehow had the authority to refuse your boss's wishes, as somehow, you, and not he/she, had the final say on the matter. So you were fired because your boss didn't have the authority to fire an employee, and requested that you do it, and when you refused, he had no power to exercise authority on your employees himself, but could only get rid of you instead.

Because obviously every business is run in the same fashion. HR in this particular circumstance was responsible for hiring to fill quotas I set. I wasn't hired by the plant manager nor did the onsite HR office have anything to do with my employment as I was hired at the corporate level, above and beyond the plant manager's head (who was terminated 3 weeks later when production costs rose, overall production fell, and administrative costs again rose as he re-hired people into positions that I cut).

You see Tamral, and kudos for not going the zionist route this post, my position was autonomous of local management. Production was my authority and no one elses. Perhaps you should go dig up the original post and re-read it.


What incredible levels of authority you had as the ultimate decision maker on your employees' careers, even overriding your boss's authority. Last I remembner, I had to go up the chain of command, not down, to even begin the process of terminating someone, even if they were 2 or 3 grades below me on the corporate scale, and the process of firing an hourly or full time hub worker/driver is even more difficult.

You have to go up the chain of command because you were hired through the local chain of command. I was hired outside of the local management's authority to get results at a plant that had fallen well below the standards set the corporate entity.


Yea… but what you said definitely sounds plausible. I stand corrected on your competence.

I never expect you to understand anything. A guy who makes up stories due to his inferiority complex, easily bruised ego, and drive to overcompensate ... what exactly could I expect?

Go create another posting identity and forget that staff can track the IP. Or better yet, become a better box sorter; maybe you'll get noticed and move up to box scanner ... I'm sure that .50-.75 raise will get you into that house you always wanted.

Then again, this line of debate has less and less to do with the topic the voters on the forum as discussing. Run along and run over the cat's belonging to teens that hack your laptop containing sensitive and unprotected UPS data.

[GSTamral]

Because obviously every business is run in the same fashion. HR in this particular circumstance was responsible for hiring to fill quotas I set. I wasn't hired by the plant manager nor did the onsite HR office have anything to do with my employment as I was hired at the corporate level, above and beyond the plant manager's head (who was terminated 3 weeks later when production costs rose, overall production fell, and administrative costs again rose as he re-hired people into positions that I cut).


Yes, because obviously this amazing company had no concerns regarding legal problems for firing workers without documentation of issues. You could do it yourself on a whim at their request. Interesting also that from above and beyond the plant manager's position, you could so easily be fired.



I never expect you to understand anything. A guy who makes up stories due to his inferiority complex, easily bruised ego, and drive to overcompensate ... what exactly could I expect?

Additional random insults and babble.

And yet you describe yourself so well in the second person.....

As for the topic, I wasn't the one who brought it up. You seem quite driven into some extremely long winded posts on the matter however. Just another step on the path to Zionism for you I suppose.

P.S. Sorters actually get paid more than the People who scan the packages.

[Snapp]

Let's try and steer this back on topic, pretty please?

[Back]

A topic that has been avoided for too long.

[Alfster]

hahahahahahaha, reeeeetaaaaaaaarrrrrrdddddeeeeedddddd

[Back]

Jesus taught that we should be kind to retards, but NOT kind to money changers.

Regardless of all that, you should not breed. Thanks for... fuck that. Go back to your cave and do what ever it is you do until you expire. No loss to the human race. In fact, expiration may help us.

How is this on topic? Its on topic because you actually have to comprehend the topic to understand the topic.

[Alfster]

Aww, that the best you can come up with?

What the hell does it matter NOW if the republicans didn't allow 300 some odd thousand people to vote?

Who is to say that every single one of them would have voted Kerry, or even enough for Kerry to have won Ohio?

You're living in the past man, move on. The fact that there wasn't enough evidence for Kerry to even contest it should mean something.

[Back]

Whats sad is what it takes to get you to actually put forth some cognitive effort.

Kerry took the good sportsman way out. Thats a plus for Kerry. We know about 2000, and people are looking back on 2004 and with all the REPUBLICAN corruption in the news TODAY, are finding weird shit.

[Alfster]

Whats sad is what it takes to get you to actually put forth some cognitive effort.


ohk mom.

[Gan]

I was not even born when voting scams started so I cannot say or do much about them. But as I live and breathe today, if there are scams, on EITHER side, I will speak out about them.
I guess thats where we differ.

Where we differ is that I would much rather see all the effort that people, like you, put into focusing on conspiracies, blame and things that they have no chance in hell proving because its not based on reality; put that effort into actually performing a comparitive study or analysis on the voting system and the technology used, THEN present the findings objectively in a forum that will entice educated and rational people can debate federal control of voting standards or states rights to do their own thing and then to say "yes, we do need a change" if a change is logically needed. The only thing that people like you do with these fingerpointing wackjob ideas and theories is create panic among the already paranoid and motivate the ignorant into an army of idiocy.

You say that those, like me, who support the current administration are just blind apologists following every move that the GOP gives us. Well, if that is indeed the case, then you my friend are simply eating out of the same feed trough with your innate ability to jump on any blame game and fingerpoint conspiracy that the leadership from the 'other side of the aisle' is willing to brew up in order to stir up sympathy for their cause and deflect attention where it should also be focused. Just do me a favory and chew with your mouth closed, and dont rant with your mouth full; because I have to eat here too.

Yes, that is where we differ. Quit force feeding me all your rhetoric bullshit and just state factual information and let me deduce my own opinions. Because its not "all just a conspiracy man!".



I was not even born when voting scams started so I cannot say or do much about them. But as I live and breathe today, if there are scams, on EITHER side, I will speak out about them.
This is the first non-slanted, objective thing you've said in this thread.

And then you go and ruin it by slipping back down into your big vat of conspiratorial, anti Republican partisan bullshit.



Kerry took the good sportsman way out. Thats a plus for Kerry. We know about 2000, and people are looking back on 2004 and with all the REPUBLICAN corruption in the news TODAY, are finding weird shit.

What Kerry saw was that Gore's tirade and temper tantrum completely obliterated any chance of him returning to politics. He effectively stepped on the third rail and paid for it. Kerry may be many things, but he's not a dumb politician. You claiming that he was a 'good sport' makes me laugh... out loud.

You remind me of the fly that is trapped in a window sile, just buzzing like crazy trying to get out and yet it does not realize that its just not getting anywhere but a dented head. One day we're going to find you curled up on your back, four to the sun, because you spun yourself out trying to find something (an exit) where nothing exists.

[Back]

Who questions and who tells who they are stupid to question?

The odd thing about this argument is you have more things to argue with your own party than I do with mine. Yet you tell me I’m on the wrong track?

All I keep saying is we all need to examine vote results for all our own good, for the will of the people, not the parties.

[Hulkein]

I just read the news every day, man. Thats all. That you don’t take issue with current headlines based on what kind of bullshit your party spews is the real :deadhorse:.

Small government = telling you what you should believe.

I wouldn't exactly call this news.

[Warriorbird]

There's cheating in every election. Generally it just equals out to be equivalent to the lack of it in my opinion...unless there's extra special effort.

[Skirmisher]

Sorry, but this is just sounding like opprotunistic sour grapes to me.