Border Protection, Antiterrorism and Illegal Immigration Control bill

[Skirmisher]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060326/ap_on_re_us/immigration_rallies

The above is the link to the article below reporting the very large turnout that has surprised authorities expecting much smaller numbers.

I'm glad the marches and protests are not only in one section of the country and hope the Senate realizes that.


Size of L.A. March Surprises Authorities

By PETER PRENGAMAN, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 34 minutes ago

Thousands of immigration advocates marched through downtown Los Angeles in one of the largest demonstrations for any cause in recent U.S. history.

More than 500,000 protesters — demanding that Congress abandon attempts to make illegal immigration a felony and to build more walls along the border — surprised police who estimated the crowd size using aerial photographs and other techniques, police Cmdr. Louis Gray Jr. said.

Wearing white T-shirts to symbolize peace, the demonstrators chanted "Mexico!" "USA!" and "Si se puede," an old Mexican-American civil rights shout that means "Yes, we can."

In Denver, more than 50,000 people protested downtown Saturday, according to police who had expected only a few thousand. Phoenix was similarly surprised Friday when an estimated 20,000 people gathered for one of the biggest demonstrations in city history, and more than 10,000 marched in Milwaukee on Thursday.

"We construct your schools. We cook your food," rapper Jorge Ruiz said after performing at a Dallas rally that drew 1,500. "We are the motor of this nation, but people don't see us. Blacks and whites, they had their revolution. They had their Martin Luther King. Now it is time for us."

Many protesters said lawmakers were unfairly targeting immigrants who provide a major labor pool for America's economy.

"Enough is enough of the xenophobic movement," said Norman Martinez, 63, who immigrated from Honduras as a child and marched in Los Angeles. "They are picking on the weakest link in society, which has built this country."

The U.S. House of Representatives has passed legislation that would make it a felony to be in the U.S. illegally, impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants, require churches to check the legal status of people they help, and erect fences along one-third of the U.S.-Mexican border.

The Senate is to begin debating the proposals on Tuesday.

President Bush on Saturday called for legislation that does not force America to choose between being a welcoming society and a lawful one.

"America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws," Bush said in his weekly radio address, discussing an issue that had driven a wedge into his own party.

Bush sides with business leaders who want to let some of the estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants stay in the country and work for a set period of time. Others, including Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, say national security concerns should drive immigration reform.

But many protesters rejected claims the national security claim, noting that the legislation would hurt Hispanics the most.

"When did you ever see a Mexican blow up the World Trade Center? Who do you think built the World Trade Center?" said David Gonzalez, 22, who marched in Los Angeles with a sign that read, "I'm in my homeland.'"

Between 5,000 and 7,000 people gathered Saturday in Charlotte, carrying signs with slogans such as "Am I Not a Human Being?" In Sacramento, more than 4,000 people protested immigration legislation at an annual march honoring the late farm labor leader Cesar Chavez.

The demonstrations are expected to culminate April 10 in a "National Day of Action" organized by labor, immigration, civil rights and religious groups.

___

Associated Press writers Bob Jablon and Kim Nguyen contributed to this report.

[Stanley Burrell]

I find it extremely surprising that this spectacular level of public outcry and hand-in-hand demonstration didn't occur sooner to those concerned Americans privately-campaigned-makeshift-border-control-implementations of early '05.

2 cupric circles.

Stanley Burrell.

[Gan]

The cool thing was that no one used the events to act like an idiot and destroy property or hurt anyone.

Nice job.

[Artha]

The cool thing was that no one used the events to act like an idiot and destroy property or hurt anyone.
QFT

I don't see why people have a problem with taking action against illegal immigration.

[Seran]

It's damn similair to simply making it felony tresspassing for any immigrants to be here without proper identification. What this means is that you have to go through the right channels for documentation to be able to come to our country.

With some 12 million or so illegal immigrants residing in the country, we cannot simply go on paying for their schooling and healthcare based simply upon their right as human beings to -our- services. With this bill comes the opportunity for workers to enter the country on guest worker status, and enjoy much of the same benefits as any other US citizen along with paying taxes.

Will it become more expensive for employers? Yes. Will it in the end cause prices for food and basic services to inflate? Yes. Will it then make our country safer because these same employers are not allowed to encourage anyone (including convicted felons) to work for them, no questions asked? Hell yes.

[SpunGirl]

Agreed. I have nothing against immigration. Legal fucking immigration. I also support an exchange program where people who are whining crybaby US citizens voluntarily switch lives with people living in third world countries (who are obviously much more thankful for the chance to live in the US).

-K

[Warriorbird]

Y'know...if the country did something about outsourcing or the people employing the illegals, maybe this would seem more real. As it is, both sides of the aisle in Congress are too thoroughly in the pocket of corporate interests.

[ElanthianSiren]

Good for L.A./Denver.

You know, legal immigration's a kind of funny tag. In the US, if you have enough money, almost ANYTHING is legal.

We had a waiter at a place we used to eat, here on a temp visa from nepal. He was INSANELY bright, and spoke fluent french as well as english, so on slow days, he'd talk with us a little. After we got to know him awhile, he said he was having trouble staying in the US. His visa expired almost a year before, but immigration was overlooking that/extending it if he paid them money to. The trouble was he'd never had a US girlfriend til then; she didn't know he was illegal, AND she was consuming his nest egg. He wasn't sure if he should tell her, as he was still holding out hope for his permanent visa.

I don't know what happened to him, as I moved away that year, but when people talk about immigration, I think about Sammy. For the record, I'm quite sure he didn't use hospital services, as he refused treatment at least once for fear of having his papers examined in any way. Getting to know people who are from other countries, here both legally and illegally, makes you look at the problem differently.

-M

[DeV]

Y'know...if the country did something about outsourcing or the people employing the illegals, maybe this would seem more real. As it is, both sides of the aisle in Congress are too thoroughly in the pocket of corporate interests.Yep. There are other more powerful forces at play. Those being the companies/corporations that hire illegals and pay them with the prior knowledge that they are not working legally in this country. They do this knowingly and repeatedly without any real threat of criminal prosecution for the cheap labor they provide. If that problem is never curbed I don't see any real positive changes coming from the proposed immigration reform.

[Seran]

Siren, if a worker gets a sponsorship from a US based employer, he can apply for employment based greencard that is permanent for as long as that individual works for said employer. Certainly this is long enough to apply for citizenship.

Sure there is preference given to skilled applicants, being that there are tiers based on experience and education, but other than having a customer based relationship, what made your example any more important than the millions of other people who want to work in the United States?

Being here is a priviledge, not a right. We do not need to take care of your sick, your needy, or your oppressed when we have those of our own to take care of. If you wish to work hard, pay taxes, and contribute to society like every other working class citizen, then fill out the paperwork and do it LEGALLY.

[Seran]

Futhermore..

If you feel that strongly about the plights of those not born with the 'advantage' of working here, feel free to begin donating 25% of your salary to a charitable donation. Better yet, triple the amount of taxes you pay and when your creditors start demanding payment, when your landlord evicts you, when your dealership takes your car.. simply tell them, and your hungry family that you gave that money away so that someone else could have it as good as you do.

No? You don't feel you should have to pay that much more, just because you care? Who exactly is going to pay for the increases in medical costs, in welfare, and in schooling costs? Don't just expect the government to simply smile and take more from ALL of us to feed those millions you feel just deserve a chance.

[Latrinsorm]

Everyone deserves a chance. The issue is whether legal immigration adequately provides for people who want to enter the country. It's fairly expensive, but the numbers I've seen aren't anywhere near prohibitively expensive.

[Seran]

Legal immigration isn't for all people who simply want to be here. Only so many visas and green cards are given out each year, thats to control the unceasing tide of people who want to come to the US. No one deserves a chance simply because they want it, they have to earn that right.

The late 1800's and early 1900's allowed nearly anyone who wished to be here a chance to come. Ever since Roosevelt introduced socialized welfare, we've seen a huge number of people simply 'wanting a chance'.

Immigrants should be allowed to work, not to collect.

[Skirmisher]

Legal immigration isn't for all people who simply want to be here. Only so many visas and green cards are given out each year, thats to control the unceasing tide of people who want to come to the US. No one deserves a chance simply because they want it, they have to earn that right.

The late 1800's and early 1900's allowed nearly anyone who wished to be here a chance to come. Ever since Roosevelt introduced socialized welfare, we've seen a huge number of people simply 'wanting a chance'.

Immigrants should be allowed to work, not to collect.

I find this line of thought interesting as, to me at least, it shows a flawed understanding of the mindset of immigrants to the US.

It is generally the ones who have "earned" the right to come here legally who will be much more likely to utilize the social services available than the illegals who would worry about being deported.

[ElanthianSiren]

I find this line of thought interesting as, to me at least, it shows a flawed understanding of the mindset of immigrants to the US.

It is generally the ones who have "earned" the right to come here legally who will be much more likely to utilize the social services available than the illegals who would worry about being deported.


What Skirm said, in general.

You must have missed where I said that Sammy was utterly petrified to go to hospital. Let me clear up what happened -- somehow he got whacked with a good dose of hot oil to the hands/forearm. It happens in restaurants. He would not go to the hospital, and he continued to work.

Your opinion that we don't need to take care of the needy, the poor, or the underprivledged is, just that, an opinion. I believe that we do. Society, in my mind, is judged by the fate of its least unsavory, least privledged citizens. Anything is easy if you have money.

If someone is here working, (regardless of WHERE they are working), I believe they deserve a shot, and thankfully, the majority of legislators agree. As you pointed out in your response -- under the past laws, vocation was considered. Also, under past laws, a person was required to return to their country of origin while waiting after their permits expired. I don't know about you, but I find the cost proposed in requiring a waiter to get back to the US from Nepal fairly prohibitive. In that way, the old immigration laws heightened selection even further.

-M

edited to add: Not that my financial status is your business, but I control how much taxes I pay based on whether or not I support the government's current view of things (though I do pay local/state tax, as Eric and I've discussed). I also give a good amount to charity; that's a bad example since most of what you give is a write off anyway. I simply do not hold your viewpoint.

[Skirmisher]

Well perhaps the Senate actually did hear the outcry regarding the pending House Immigration reform legislation.

I'm sure this will not be the finished product but it seems at least a counterpoint to the House .

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060328/ap_on_go_co/immigration;_ylt=ArthG6b3EYsDSF17O26Buias0NUE;_ylu =X3oDMTA3OXIzMDMzBHNlYwM3MDM-

Senate Panel Advances Immigration Debate

By SUZANNE GAMBOA, Associated Press Writer 30 minutes ago

Immigrant supporters claimed their first major victory since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks after a bipartisan group of senators approved legislation that would give millions of illegal immigrants a chance at citizenship.

"It's a big day for us. We may not have a lot of big days, but this is a big day," Frank Sharry, executive director of the National Immigration Forum, a pro-immigrant group, said after the Senate Judiciary Committee approved a package of immigration and border security measures Monday.

Restaurant owners, agricultural groups, Democrats and others who had been pushing for a way for immigrants to earn legal permanent residency — the first step to citizenship — also claimed victory.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (news, bio, voting record), R-S.C. said he hoped President Bush, who advocates a so-called guest worker program, would participate in efforts to fashion consensus legislation.

For his part, President Bush said he was determined to see some provision made on behalf of illegal immigrants who have been working in this country.

Bush said that no one should discount his ability to get a new immigration bill from Congress despite his struggles with lawmakers in the past year. "Don't underestimate me," Bush told Mexican and Canadian reporters in an interview Monday.

The president is insisting that Congress send him a bill that not only strengthens U.S. borders, but also allows foreigners to have a guest permit that lets them work temporarily in the United States in low-paying jobs. "It's a humane way to deal with people who are making a contribution to our economy," he said.

The bill's next step is the full Senate, where Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., is negotiating with other senators on how to handle the committee's bill and his own proposal, which focuses more on punishing employers who hire undocumented workers.

"The situation along our Southern borders now ranks as a national security challenge, second only to the war on terror," Frist said Monday. "Every day thousands of people violate our frontiers."

Frist said the Senate will begin a debate on immigration later this week with the aim of passing a bill by April 7. The debate will give Americans a glimpse of two candidates for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008: Frist and Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., an architect of the bill approved by the Judiciary Committee.

McCain said the turnouts in the hundreds of thousands — particularly among Hispanics — at recent rallies in Los Angeles, Chicago and Washington helped galvanize support for the bill.

"I'd like to point out that a lot of these young people are children and grandchildren of people who came here illegally who are citizens themselves who don't want their grandmother sent back to Guadalajara," McCain said Tuesday on ABC's "Good Morning America."

McCain acknowledged that there were "sharp divisions" within the Republican Party over the approach to illegal immigration. Despite Bush's support for letting illegal immigrants with jobs avoid deportation, many Republicans vow to prevent what they say amounts to amnesty from becoming law.

In general, the Judiciary Committee's bill is designed to strengthen enforcement of U.S. borders, regulate the flow into the country of guest workers and determine the legal future of the estimated 11 million immigrants living in the United States illegally.

The bill would double the Border Patrol and authorize a "virtual wall" of unmanned vehicles, cameras and sensors to monitor the U.S.-Mexico border. It also would allow more visas for nurses and agriculture workers, and shelter humanitarian organizations from prosecution if they provide non-emergency assistance to illegal residents.

The most contentious provision would permit illegal aliens currently in the country to apply for citizenship without first having to return home, a process that would take at least six years. They would have to pay a fine, learn English, study American civics, demonstrate they had paid their taxes and take their place behind other applicants for citizenship, according to aides to Kennedy, D-Mass., who was instrumental in drafting the legislation.

Kennedy credited the "faith community" for building support for a guest worker program.

The Judiciary Committee also approved a five-year plan to provide visas for about 1.5 million agriculture workers and allow them to eventually seek legal residency.

Recent polls show that about six in 10 Americans oppose letting illegal immigrants remain in the country and apply for citizenship and three of every four don't believe the government is doing enough to stem the continuing tide of new arrivals.

"For years, the government has turned a blind eye to illegal aliens who break into this country," said Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo. Tancredo helped lead the fight for a bill the House passed in December that would define illegal immigrants as felons, build fences across a third of the U.S-Mexican border and enlist local police and the military to help patrol it.

Soon after assuming the presidency, Bush called for measures to provide businesses with a reliable immigrant work force. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks he put aside negotiations with Mexico on a guest worker program. Mexican President Vicente Fox, with whom Bush meets this week in Cancun, had hoped his friendship with the former Texas governor would lead to legal status for Mexicans working illegally in the U.S.

Any bill produced by the Senate would have to be reconciled with the House measure. Despite Bush's support for letting illegal immigrants with jobs avoid deportation, many Republicans vow to prevent what they say amounts to amnesty from becoming law.

"I will oppose amnesty at all stages," said Sen. John Cornyn (news, bio, voting record), R-Texas, who was on the losing side of Monday's 12-6 vote by the Judiciary Committee. He said Congress "made a mistake in 1986" by granting amnesty to 3 million illegal immigrants "and now we have 12 million."

[Latrinsorm]

They would have to pay a fine, learn English, study American civics, demonstrate they had paid their taxes and take their place behind other applicants for citizenshipWhat more can one reasonably ask for? I agree that security is important, but it seems unlikely that sending Abuelita back to Mexico for 6 years is helpful in that regard.

[xtc]

They should have rounded up those protesting. I am sure they would caught a ton of illegal immigrants there and then. It would have cut down on the cost of finding and deporting these people. Bush doesn't seem to be worried about civil liberties so a mass drag net would have been a good idea.

In Canada we are currently deporting illegals that the last Liberal Government wanted to grant citzienship to.

[Seran]

and if someone goes through the right channels, they will not have to face the fear of deportation if they're discovered. The point isn't that immigrants aren't needed in the workforce, it's that we need to know just what type of people are crossing our borders and make sure when they are here, they pay taxes and whatnot like everyone else.

The argument that it is not fair is irrelevent to their immigration status. What is relevent is that they follow OUR rules to be here.

[Jazuela]

We have natural-born citizens who don't follow the rules, and our tax dollars pay the costs of keeping them in jail. I'd like to see some of THEM deported to some other country, so I don't have to pay for their "rehabilitation." We can't even take care of our own, yet immigrants are expecting us to take care of them?

Legal or illegal, the whole thing is a mess. Our country was founded by immigrants who had no "legal" status. If it was up to the native-born citizens of this country, we'd still be in England and they'd still be free to roam the continent without being stuck in reservations. So okay, the past is the past, we have what we're dealing with now. And what we're dealing with now, is a country that can't support itself, because the powers-that-be have made some piss-poor decisions and put us into a debt that our 5th-generation descendants won't see the end of. As much as my "liberal side" feels that anyone who isn't a criminal should be allowed to live in this country, my "conservative side" thinks we just plain can't afford them.

What to do about it? I dunno, it's a quandry. Bringing back and enforcing Workfare might be a good start.

[Warriorbird]

The other issue with "legal immigration" is the vast degree of bribes and nonsense that prospective "legal immigrants" have to go through in many countries that are less civilized than ours just to get that chance to be a legal immigrant.

Nothing will really get done until we address employers hiring them...and there are some huge employers (:coughs: ADM) that do hire them that are more powerful than most politicians would even dream of.

[Seran]

You're right, there is a huge over population of our national prison system, many of which are repeat offenders and lifers. Yet did you know that 10% of our total prison population is made up of hispanics that've immigrated here illegally? If it costs ten thousand a year to house them there, and multiply it by the number presently incarcerated and tell me it wouldn't be 100 times cheaper to deport.

It is true our country was founded by immigrants, ones that were fleeing religious persecution. Difference is, they all came here to work, to prosper and obtain freedom. On that note, tell me how you think the immigration numbers might change if our country and states no longer provided free healthcare, monetary assistance, schooling and various food stamp programs?
It would plummet.

In California, we have a phenominal season worker population. What happens when there are no more crops to pick? The families collect welfare, unemployment and food stamps. An estimated 30% of aid assistance in this state is done by illegal immigrants. Think we'd still see the tens of thousands migrating here every month if employers were severly penalized for hiring illegals and basic services were cut off? No.

[Warriorbird]

You're again missing my point... what would happen if nobody PAID them?

They wouldn't show up. The Republican Party is scared to go after the people that hire the immigrants. The Democratic Party is scared to go after the immigrants. Therefore you wind up with nothing.

[ElanthianSiren]

You're right, there is a huge over population of our national prison system, many of which are repeat offenders and lifers. Yet did you know that 10% of our total prison population is made up of hispanics that've immigrated here illegally? If it costs ten thousand a year to house them there, and multiply it by the number presently incarcerated and tell me it wouldn't be 100 times cheaper to deport.

It is true our country was founded by immigrants, ones that were fleeing religious persecution. Difference is, they all came here to work, to prosper and obtain freedom. On that note, tell me how you think the immigration numbers might change if our country and states no longer provided free healthcare, monetary assistance, schooling and various food stamp programs?
It would plummet.

In California, we have a phenominal season worker population. What happens when there are no more crops to pick? The families collect welfare, unemployment and food stamps. An estimated 30% of aid assistance in this state is done by illegal immigrants. Think we'd still see the tens of thousands migrating here every month if employers were severly penalized for hiring illegals and basic services were cut off? No.


First paragraph -- source please.

Also, are you insinuating that the 10% of the prison population that is "made up of hispanics that've immigrated here illegally" are representative of the entire group of people? You seem to be drawing that correlation when you go on to state that every one of our forefathers coming here was religiously persecuted or wanted to work. How can you generalize that illegals are not religiously persecuted or wanting to work? It erodes your argument or makes it circular to try to ascribe one label to roughly seven million people.

Where is the other 70% going; estimated by whom? Where's the source? Can you honestly account for all the seasonal workers and state that every one of them is collecting unemployment in off season; or is this another generalization?

-M
edited because I basically repeated what WB said, and since he already said it, I didn't feel it needed to be said again.

[xtc]

The other issue with "legal immigration" is the vast degree of bribes and nonsense that prospective "legal immigrants" have to go through in many countries that are less civilized than ours just to get that chance to be a legal immigrant.

We can't police other nations immigration ministries, neither is this a reason to allow illegal immigration. It is illegal. How many nations practice this policy you claim anyway?


Nothing will really get done until we address employers hiring them...and there are some huge employers (:coughs: ADM) that do hire them that are more powerful than most politicians would even dream of.

The Canadian Prime Minister has the right solution. He is cracking down on illegals and deporting them. If people know that illegal immigration won't be tolerated they won't come illegally. It is because these people know enforcement is a joke that they come in droves.

[DeV]

It is because these people know enforcement is a joke that they come in droves.And they also know with certainty that they will be employed by companies seeking people just like them. People they do not have to be accountable to or for besides paying them inadequate wages under the table and doing so illegaly . Where is the accountability there?

I'm not a proponent of illegal immigration; quite the contrary. I just realize the problem is much bigger than something massive deportation would be able to solve with any immediacy.

[xtc]

And they also know with certainty that they will be employed by companies seeking people just like them. People they do not have to be accountable to or for besides paying them inadequate wages under the table and doing so illegaly . Where is the accountability there?

I'm not a proponent of illegal immigration; quite the contrary. I just realize the problem is much bigger than something massive deportation would be able to solve with any immediacy.

The Canadian Government is taking the mass deportation tack. Employers who knowingly employ illegals are part of the problem as well.

It will be interesting to see how the Canadian plan works out.

[Warriorbird]

Right...because Canada clearly has a huge open border with Mexico....and ADM is really a Canadian monopoly.

:winks:

[xtc]

Right...because Canada clearly has a huge open border with Mexico....and ADM is really a Canadian monopoly.

:winks:

Canada has a lot of illegal Portuguese immigrants most of whom work in the Construction trade. We don't seem to be going after the Construction companies but the new Prime Minister has announced they will agressively be going after the illegals. Mexican President Vicente Fox has said Canada will suffer a labour shortage and wants Canada to offer guest worker visas to Mexicans....lol. He plans to discuss it with Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper during the upcoming Summit of the Americas. To be a fly on the wall during that conversation. Poor Vicente doesn't seem to want his own citizens.

"Archer Daniels Midland has interests in food processors in Asia, Canada, Europe, South America, and the US."

[Warriorbird]

Mexico's tried to sell itself to the US. Several times. Might as well try Canada.

[Jazuela]

You're right, there is a huge over population of our national prison system, many of which are repeat offenders and lifers. Yet did you know that 10% of our total prison population is made up of hispanics that've immigrated here illegally? If it costs ten thousand a year to house them there, and multiply it by the number presently incarcerated and tell me it wouldn't be 100 times cheaper to deport.

...which would mean that 90% of our total prison population is made up of NON-hispanics who have NOT immigrated here illegally. I'm thinking we should look at the "non-illegal non-immigrant non-hispanics" currently doing time, before we start worrying about the measly 10% who fit the minority of prison population (according to your unnamed source, of course).


It is true our country was founded by immigrants, ones that were fleeing religious persecution. Difference is, they all came here to work, to prosper and obtain freedom. On that note, tell me how you think the immigration numbers might change if our country and states no longer provided free healthcare, monetary assistance, schooling and various food stamp programs?
Difference is, the illegals coming here haven't come here to kill off the natives and steal their land, all in the name of "freedom" and "rights." The modern-day "illegals" come here hoping for a better life than wherever they came from, and most of them aren't interested in killing me or my neighbors just so they can build a homestead on our property.

As far as I know, the vast majority of people collecting welfare and foodstamps are natural-born American citizens, not illegal/legal immigrants. Workfare would put the kabosh on a LOT of the abuse that goes on by our own citizens. Illegals are a drop in the bucket compared to that.


In California, we have a phenominal season worker population. What happens when there are no more crops to pick? The families collect welfare, unemployment and food stamps. An estimated 30% of aid assistance in this state is done by illegal immigrants. Think we'd still see the tens of thousands migrating here every month if employers were severly penalized for hiring illegals and basic services were cut off? No.

You have a phenomenal season worker population, because you have phenomenally large seasonal worker employers. Tell your employers to stop hiring the illegals and start paying fair wages to citizens, and your problem will be solved. Of course, that'll mean the price of crops will increase just as phenomenally...you wanna pay $14.95 for a 2-pound bag of carrots? Get on that bandwagon then. You don't wanna pay $14.95 for a 2-pound bag of carrots? Then stop complaining that you have illegals who are willing to work for less than the federal-mandated minimum wage.

The problem is circular. No one is willing to pay high prices, so they have to get cheap labor. People complain that the only people they can afford to hire are illegals, because citizens don't want the jobs EVEN at the state minimum wage. So those citizens who refuse to work for $7.00 an hour (or whatever it is in your state) have to put up with knowing that they're giving jobs away to illegals, which causes more corruption, which causes taxes to rise to cover the cost of rounding up and deporting the illegals, which takes production from companies that hire the ones taken away, which drives the costs up, which makes citizens insist on being paid more, which forces companies to hire illegals. It cannot stop, until the mindset of America changes. And that just isn't gonna happen any time soon.

[DeV]

Immigration in the US is largely about supply and demand. We haven't been focusing enough on making those who demand this cheap labor accountable so it continues to be a cycle.

The interesting part is the IRS knows the companies that are hiring these workers because they pay taxes. Those taxes have accumulated to the tune of billions of dollars in social security tax dollars over the years as a result of falsely filed w-2's by undocumented/illegal workers who will never receive those benefits, nor should they.

[Seran]

Here are just a few sources, but if you want anymore, I have an entire directory for you Siren.

http://www.univision.net/corp/en/pr/New_York_24022006-3.html

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalcoverage.html (Sorry 17% are illegal)

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersffe c

My favorite, being the part were it says of the total population of criminal aliens, 63% are from Mexico- http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

[Seran]

You have a phenomenal season worker population, because you have phenomenally large seasonal worker employers. Tell your employers to stop hiring the illegals and start paying fair wages to citizens, and your problem will be solved. Of course, that'll mean the price of crops will increase just as phenomenally...you wanna pay $14.95 for a 2-pound bag of carrots? Get on that bandwagon then. You don't wanna pay $14.95 for a 2-pound bag of carrots? Then stop complaining that you have illegals who are willing to work for less than the federal-mandated minimum wage.

14.95?? Abit of exaggeration don't you think? But if you think you can produce alittle evidence, feel free.

If you don't think that the UFW doesn't watch the hourly wages of produce pickers, you're entirely on crack. Go ahead and visit the following website and notice the national average for field workers is 9.15 an hour.. well above minimum wage. But if you still want to make up numbers, feel free. http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/reports/nassr/other/pfl-bb/2006/fmla0206.txt

[Sean of the Thread]

I personally think that illegals are "allowed" so they can dilute the work force and drive wages down. Where is my tin foil hat?

[Seran]

I have your tin foil hat.

Anyone else want to step in and argue that we're abusing illegal immigrants when no fewer than 3% of producers who hire migrational workers pay less than 8-12 dollars an hour? I was a shift manager at Mc Donalds four years ago and made 6.45. Sure the job is difficult, but they're more than adequately compensated.

All the proof is there, how much Democratic spin are you going to listen to before you realize just how much abuse illegal immigration puts on our economy.

And YES, the figure I heard tonight was some 150 billion in lost wages due to hourly rates being driven down by the masses of *unskilled* laborers. Lou Dobbs recently had a debate tonight against Jorge Ramos, one of the major anchors for Univision, and got the sucker couldn't produce one shred of rebuttel against the fact Vincente Fox and the leading families of Mexico control the government and put their family in poverty.

[Sean of the Thread]

I was paid a penny a pound to pick corn at age 15... 75 cents for a 75 pound bag of corn. It was great work! Get up at 4am .. ride in the back of a big ass truck to the wet muddy fields and get busy!

Btw I'm white and so was everyone else doing the work.

[xtc]

I noticed there are large protests in favour of these illegal aliens. Perhaps we should follow the Mexican Constitution specifically article 33:

"Article 33 - Foreigners are those who do not possess the qualities determined in Article 30. They have the right to the guarantees of Chapter I of the first title of this Constitution, but the Executive of the Union has the exclusive right to expel from the national territory, immediately and without necessity of judicial proceedings, all foreigners whose stay it judges inconvenient. Foreigners may not, in any manner, involve themselves in the political affairs of the country."

[WhiteTrash]

[QUOTE=Jazuela Difference is, the illegals coming here haven't come here to kill off the natives and steal their land, all in the name of "freedom" and "rights." The modern-day "illegals" come here hoping for a better life than wherever they came from, and most of them aren't interested in killing me or my neighbors just so they can build a homestead on our property.

.[/QUOTE]


Wanna bet? Check out the reconquista movement, The Plan of San Diego, and Aztlan. NOw not everybody that comes here from Mexico is into these, but the numbers are growing and so is their funding and support

[Skirmisher]

Wanna bet? Check out the reconquista movement, The Plan of San Diego, and Aztlan. NOw not everybody that comes here from Mexico is into these, but the numbers are growing and so is their funding and support

"Numbers are growing and so is their funding..."

How wonderfully vague. There are fringe movements in every country.

You're an idiot if you are losing sleep over the impossible loss of US territory.

But then again...you are white trash.

[Some Rogue]

I personally think that illegals are "allowed" so they can dilute the work force and drive wages down. Where is my tin foil hat?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/lrenzo2/ordinary1.jpg

[Warriorbird]

Curiously Seran's not mentioning any of the major Republican campaign contributors and worldwide agriculture monopolies that employ illegals.

Hmm. Might wanna clean up around back first.

[Seran]

Name some of this major campaign contributors that you have actual proof of that are paying criminal wages to illegals. Oh wait.. you don't have any, do you?

The burden of proof lies on the one slinging mud, and so far there has been absolutely nothing. Go ahead and keep touting your little pieces of unsubstatiated Democrat spin, I'm sure someone thinks you're not FOS.

[Skirmisher]

Wal-Mart pays $11M over illegal labor
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/18/news/fortune500/wal_mart_settlement/


Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer and owner of Sam's Club warehouse stores, gives more money to Republican candidates than any other company does.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/182915_costco21.html

[Artha]

Wal*Mart is just evil in general.

[Sean of the Thread]

Wal*Mart is just evil in general.

Wally World has GRRRREAT PRICES!!!

[Sean of the Thread]

Wal-Mart pays $11M over illegal labor
http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/18/news/fortune500/wal_mart_settlement/


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/182915_costco21.html

Wal-Mart will escape criminal sanctions and pay $11 million to settle claims.


Do I need to elaborate?

[Warriorbird]

:coughs: Walmart. ADM. If there were no companies supporting them continuing to be here...I imagine it'd be a lot easier to pass actually effective measures to keep them out. There's no burden of proof on me at all.

[DeV]

^ Agreed. I'm sure the IRS and social security administration know full well most of the companies employing illegal workers. It's just so darn profitable to disobey the law when the incentives are so rewarding. Low wages and no benefits, sounds like a sure fire way to keep those corporate pocket books fat. Of course, they can always claim they had no idea they were undocumented. Might that be the reason why federal fines against companies has dropped so drastically within the past couple years...

[xtc]

The Democrats are at least equally guilty, the would love for illegals to be granted citizen so they could soak up the votes. On this issue there is lots of blame to go around.

[Seran]

You're qouting a source that states a four year crack down on Walmart by the local and federal government revealed a whopping 245 arrests in a state as large as Pennsylvania.

What I find more amusing, is that the government dropped it's suit against Walmart due to lack of evidence. Yet the company settled over it's use of illegal private contractors to.. MOP at some of it's stores.

Huge travesty of the the worst kind, to imagine they're hiring illegal immigrants.. to think your argument had anything to do with the original point of your naming large government contributors that have hired illegal immigrants at depressed wages.

I'm still waiting.

[Jazuela]

I used to work for a company that supplied a certain material to contractors, and to government offices. The people in manufacturing were -all- illegal immigrants. They were -all- making less than the state minimum wage. When the feds came around (which they did for spot inspections at least twice a year), the boss would close the back room up and shut down the machinery. He would LOCK the workers in there until the Feds left. Closing it involved lowering a fake wall, so the Feds would need to do a serious inspection to even realize there was another 20 feet behind the wall. It looked like an outer wall, and it was in the back of the building in a wooded lot.

Eventually they got caught with a couple of them and deported the illegals, who had paid hundreds of american dollars to be brought to the States. They had no idea they'd be put into slave labor, which is exactly what happened. They had to pay for the room and board provided by the boss, so he'd just deduct it from their paychecks. That made them even more dependant on their jobs - because they feared for their lives if they were caught and would rather be in debt, and work 60 hours a week for $4.00 an hour, than risk trying to find work somewhere else.

Around a decade or so ago, there was a HUGE expose on Florida fruit growers importing hispanics up from South and Central America, making them live in bunks in hidden lots within the orchards. They received no medical care, wages amounting to around $100 per week, most of which went to "pay back" the orchard grower for food and rent. If one of them got hurt they would be fired. And they couldn't do a thing about it, because they were illegals. Pregnant women were encouraged to get abortions before the boss even found out about it.

That's just a couple of examples I know about. And yeah the second was over 10 years ago, but that's not a very long time considering how long this country has hosted immigrants.

[Valthissa]

I think Borjas is fairly definitive on the economics (which is a totally separate issue from the politics) of immigration.

people interested in the economic impact of immigration would do well to spend a few hours reading some his work.

C/Valth

[Back]

What a complex issue. I see this as more about national security than anything else. I sure as hell don’t want some suicide bomber coming over either of our borders and blowing shit up.

Maybe a compromise. Drop the felony stuff and seriously focus all the money that would go into having to enforce it entirely into more secure checkpoints, not only on our borders, but our shipping and airports as well, along with cooperating with our neighbors so that they can be the real first line of defense against anyone trying to enter our country with harmful intent.

[Seran]

Who was your employer Jazuela?

[Skirmisher]

You're qouting a source that states a four year crack down on Walmart by the local and federal government revealed a whopping 245 arrests in a state as large as Pennsylvania.

What I find more amusing, is that the government dropped it's suit against Walmart due to lack of evidence. Yet the company settled over it's use of illegal private contractors to.. MOP at some of it's stores.

Huge travesty of the the worst kind, to imagine they're hiring illegal immigrants.. to think your argument had anything to do with the original point of your naming large government contributors that have hired illegal immigrants at depressed wages.

I'm still waiting.

No you aren't.

You asked for an example and I gave one.

What you are doing now is pouting.

[Warriorbird]

Because he doesn't want to hurt the companies that support illegals. Also because he's witnessing ADM's pure lobbying might now.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/11/immigration/index.html

[Sean of the Thread]

I used to work for a company that supplied a certain material to contractors, and to government offices. The people in manufacturing were -all- illegal immigrants. They were -all- making less than the state minimum wage. When the feds came around (which they did for spot inspections at least twice a year), the boss would close the back room up and shut down the machinery. He would LOCK the workers in there until the Feds left. Closing it involved lowering a fake wall, so the Feds would need to do a serious inspection to even realize there was another 20 feet behind the wall. It looked like an outer wall, and it was in the back of the building in a wooded lot.

Eventually they got caught with a couple of them and deported the illegals, who had paid hundreds of american dollars to be brought to the States. They had no idea they'd be put into slave labor, which is exactly what happened. They had to pay for the room and board provided by the boss, so he'd just deduct it from their paychecks. That made them even more dependant on their jobs - because they feared for their lives if they were caught and would rather be in debt, and work 60 hours a week for $4.00 an hour, than risk trying to find work somewhere else.

Around a decade or so ago, there was a HUGE expose on Florida fruit growers importing hispanics up from South and Central America, making them live in bunks in hidden lots within the orchards. They received no medical care, wages amounting to around $100 per week, most of which went to "pay back" the orchard grower for food and rent. If one of them got hurt they would be fired. And they couldn't do a thing about it, because they were illegals. Pregnant women were encouraged to get abortions before the boss even found out about it.

That's just a couple of examples I know about. And yeah the second was over 10 years ago, but that's not a very long time considering how long this country has hosted immigrants.


First of all you are a great person for not reporting your employer for mistreating HUMANS.

Second of all please provide a source for the Florida orchards as on a quick search I couldn't find anything and I'm interested in reading up on it.

[Sean of the Thread]

What a complex issue. I see this as more about national security than anything else. I sure as hell don’t want some suicide bomber coming over either of our borders and blowing shit up.

Maybe a compromise. Drop the felony stuff and seriously focus all the money that would go into having to enforce it entirely into more secure checkpoints, not only on our borders, but our shipping and airports as well, along with cooperating with our neighbors so that they can be the real first line of defense against anyone trying to enter our country with harmful intent.

So you're saying we shouldn't enforce the laws in place even against illegals? (non felony)

We do enforce more secure checkpoints .. even when it means grabbing a crazy looking black women ignoring a security guard who repeatably calls STOP!

Maybe we should adopt Mexico's policy on illegals?

[Warriorbird]

Funny stuff when you can make everybody else do the work for you. Are conservatives on the board scared to research anything?

:grins:

Hell, we had 27 illegals arrested working on airplanes in Greensboro, NC a while back. There was an estimate of 400,000 illegals having drivers licenses in our state. This is all in a place where it is exceptionally difficult to get benefits unless you ARE legal. You tell me what these people are doing to get their extra money. Sure...make it harder to be an illegal...but if you don't target the corporations involved you are shooting yourself in the foot. It's the little things. There's approximately 200 illegals working daily on rebuilding UNC Chapel Hill's campus for a personal example. They've been reported, but the construction companies involved have enough government pull to make sure nothing happens.

You can't afford to be hypocritical on this stuff like you are, Seran. The Republicans in the House are discovering that right now.

[Sean of the Thread]

27 illegals arrested.. 10,999,973 to go.

I guess the reason why Illegals have it so good in Florida is because Jeb and GW are tight.

[HarmNone]

A quick search turned up this:

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march04/florida030904.htm

[Sean of the Thread]

A quick search turned up this:

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march04/florida030904.htm

I want to read the "expose". I remember what you linked in the news.. that wasn't over a decade ago as she put it.

[ElanthianSiren]

Welp, the bill didn't make the senate without changes, as expected. That means it goes back to the House, even when the Senate can agree on something. Senate's saying they plan to drop the felony portion, but there's extensive opposition even within the GOP to what the GOP wants to do. I think they will try to string this along until November and use it as a maneuvering card to pursuade people, whose votes are on the fence, that Republican is the way to vote. We'll have to see.

-M

[HarmNone]

Here you go, Xyelin:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1999/May/216cr.htm

It's not a newspaper article, nor is it from Sports Illustrated, but I think it serves to show that Jazuela's memory isn't all that far off.

[Daniel]

And YES, the figure I heard tonight was some 150 billion in lost wages due to hourly rates being driven down by the masses of *unskilled* laborers.

^

How much of that 150 billion lost goes into the hands of the illegials?

If you mean 150 billion is not paid in wages than that means 150 billion is made by American companies. (To get point, define the trickle down effect)

If the 150 billion is what is paid to illegal immigrants what percentage is sent back to their country of origin in remittances and what percentage is recycled back into the American economy?

If you can't answer either question than you probably shouldn't be trying to argue numbers.

[Skirmisher]

Time magazine reported that a study done by I believe the University of North Carolina(?) that approximately 80% of the income earned by illegals in that state was then spent by them in that state.

[Jazuela]

I'd rather not say who they were. I only worked for them for a couple of weeks until I found out what was going on. Since I worked in the offices, I didn't have any interaction with the warehouse people, who came to work through a different part of the building before I arrived, didn't eat in the office lunch room, and left several hours after I did. I knew we had warehouse/manufacturing workers, I just didn't get much opportunity to see them. I found out what was going on because they wanted me to help them with payroll and I questioned someone's hours - overtime work, but no overtime pay, for a non-salaried employee. I thought it was a mistake. They told me to just enter the data and mind my own business. After a few hours of doing that, I realized there were a bunch of employees being paid substandard wages, all of whom had hispanic names. So - I walked out in disgust.

[Jazuela]

The thing about the fruit growers was on TV, as I said around a decade or so ago. It was some kind of weekly news show on a network station, but I don't recall which one. I just remember little bits of it - images that stuck in my mind, and the topic itself.

[xtc]

This whole argument is a joke. Illegal immigrants come to America on mass. They are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, i.e. not legally in the country. It astounds me that anyone would defend their "right" to be here. They have no right to be here, they are illegal.

While all the liberals here defend the illegal immigrants or aliens how about looking at how this is unfair to legal immigrants standing in line in another country waiting properly and patiently to come to America. These illegals are pissing on them. By allowing these illegals to stay here we are rewarding them for breaking the law and punishing those who are trying to get into the country legally.

I think it is a great idea to deny citizenship to children whose parents who are in America illegally and before anyone brings me up my parents were in American legally when I was born.

Who really surprised me in this debate was Pat Robertson who defended the illegals and called for "Christian compassion". I guess he means the kind he has extended to Ariel Sharon and Muslims in the past. I was really floored by Robertson on this one. It made me think of the Illuminati and how Robertson and Bush are in league with each other....where is my tin hat.

[Back]

GOP Leaders to Drop Felony for Immigrants (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-main-9-l3&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20060412%2F0706743736.htm&sc=1153)


Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D- Mass., dismissed the proposal by the GOP leadership, saying: ``Actions speak louder than words, and there's no running away from the fact that the Republican House passed a bill, and Senator Frist offered one, that criminalizes immigrants.''

``This debate shouldn't be about making criminals out of hardworking families ... but rather about strengthening our national security and enacting a law that reflects our best values and our humanity,'' Kennedy said.

-----------------------------------------------------------

xtc, the democratic stance on this bill is purely national security,as you can see from the quote, straight from the horses (donkey's) mouth. The only reason democrats voted against dropping the felony to misdemeanor is because they are NOT in favor of upping the civil crime any more than it already is.

The National Security issue has been obfuscated by hatred, bigotry and ignorance by the republicans.

[xtc]

GOP Leaders to Drop Felony for Immigrants (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-main-9-l3&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20060412%2F0706743736.htm&sc=1153)



-----------------------------------------------------------

xtc, the democratic stance on this bill is purely national security,as you can see from the quote, straight from the horses (donkey's) mouth. The only reason democrats voted against dropping the felony to misdemeanor is because they are NOT in favor of upping the civil crime any more than it already is.

The National Security issue has been obfuscated by hatred, bigotry and ignorance by the republicans.

I agree about the National Security issue and I am in favour of racially and religiously diverse immigration, hell I from Toronto it doesn't get more diverse, however illegal is illegal. We can't reward this behaviour not for the illegal immigrants or for the employers that hire them.

[Daniel]

It's not about rewarding immigrants, its about extending the basic tenants of human decency that we expect for ourselves to other people in country, in the spirit of the history of our nation.

It's like now we're going Hey you made it across the Rio grande. Here's a price!

The only reason they are illegial is because we say they are, and that doesn't even account for the fact that the vast majority of people here today are descended from "Illegial" immigrants.

[Back]

How we can enforce felonies or even misdemeanors on everyone in this country who came here illegally is a joke.

Forget Mexico for one second.

Does anyone have any idea how many Europeans or other foreign nationals come here on a vacation/work/school visa and stay beyond the expiration date? Not to mention all the marriages to get U.S. citizenship through mail-order brides?

We need to focus on security at this point. Seriously. Once we get that as tight as we can, THEN we can talk about penalties for civil crimes.

[xtc]

It's not about rewarding immigrants, its about extending the basic tenants of human decency that we expect for ourselves to other people in country, in the spirit of the history of our nation.

It's like now we're going Hey you made it across the Rio grande. Here's a price!

The only reason they are illegial is because we say they are, and that doesn't even account for the fact that the vast majority of people here today are descended from "Illegial" immigrants.


So if I rob from a store, the only reason it is a crime is because we say it is? If the Sheriff of a town has a father who is a thief, does that disqualify the Sheriff from enforcing the law?

Human decency? I am all for human decency but if we allow them to stay we are rewarding them.

I am not sure I buy the argument that most Americans came from illegal immigrants, speaking for myself my parents emigrated from England to Canada legally, then from Canada to America legally, and back to Canada legally.

Two things about your post:

1. I think you meant to use tenets not tenants which gave me a chuckle because what these people are is illegal tenants. People who have broken into our homes and are squatted on them screaming for their rights.

2. There is no need to put quotations around the word illegal, there is no debate about the legality in how they came here.

[Daniel]

So if I rob from a store, the only reason it is a crime is because we say it is? If the Sheriff of a town has a father who is a thief, does that disqualify the Sheriff from enforcing the law?

^

It would be a comparable situation if people all around the country just like you were robbing stores.

Otherwise its not. The action of immigration is not illegal.



1. I think you meant to use tenets not tenant

^

Happens

>2. There is no need to put quotations around the word illegal, there is no debate about the legality in how they came here.

....

So, this is an issue...because? It quite obviously is a debate.

[xtc]

How we can enforce felonies or even misdemeanors on everyone in this country who came here illegally is a joke.

Forget Mexico for one second.

Does anyone have any idea how many Europeans or other foreign nationals come here on a vacation/work/school visa and stay beyond the expiration date? Not to mention all the marriages to get U.S. citizenship through mail-order brides?

We need to focus on security at this point. Seriously. Once we get that as tight as we can, THEN we can talk about penalties for civil crimes.

We ship them back to where they came from and punish those who hire them.

How many Europeans or foreign nationals overstay their visas and illegally take up residence in the United States? I am betting far fewer than 11 million. Mail order brides are legal.

Let's talk about enforcement for a moment. I have a friend who was working in the United States on T-1 visa, she was 3 days in applying for extension (they routinely extend them for certain jobs). She went to the border to get it extended and because she was three days late, she was sent packing to Canada. She wasn't allowed to get her things from her home or speak personally with her employer to inform them why she wouldn't be at work the next day.

I have another friend who was accepted into the MBA program at the University of Texas Austin. He went to visit the campus and because he had worked in the Middle East he was barred from coming to the United States. So he had to change his plans for the next two years because of an arbitrary decision by US border customs. He is an India Hindu who no criminal record.

I have another friend who got married to an American and was accepted into SMU's MBA program. She applied for a student visa and had the unfortunate circumstance to possess a Muslim name, it took three years for the visa to be processed. By that time she had already obtained her MBA at a Canadian school.

But illegal immigrants from Mexico get preferential treatment. INS ignores them.

[xtc]

So if I rob from a store, the only reason it is a crime is because we say it is? If the Sheriff of a town has a father who is a thief, does that disqualify the Sheriff from enforcing the law?

^

It would be a comparable situation if people all around the country just like you were robbing stores.

So mass disregard for the law justifies it?


The action of immigration is not illegal.

We must have read different law text books, mine says moving to a country without the approval and consent of the US Government is illegal.




1. I think you meant to use tenets not tenant

^

Happens

yes but here it is funny

>2. There is no need to put quotations around the word illegal, there is no debate about the legality in how they came here.

....


So, this is an issue...because? It quite obviously is a debate.

There is no debate that these people came here illegally. What we are debating is what to do with them.

[Back]

Well, I know from experience, there are tons of au-pairs in NYC who are here illegally.

I had one friend who went home, then on her trip back to LAX, was sent home without her belongings on the spot.

We can talk about how people are criminals for wanting to live here and work, but in my mind the more important issue is who is trying to get here and blow shit up. These are not related issues. Lets figure out a way to extend our defenses before we try to criminalize from within.

[Daniel]

So mass disregard for the law justifies it?

^

No idea what the fuck your talking about. Justifies what? Moving here illegially is not the same as robbing or stabbing someone.


We must have read different law text books, mine says moving to a country without the approval and consent of the US Government is illegal.

^

....

I said Immigration is not illegial. Unless you intend to suggest that everyone who moves here is breaking the law then your obviously being retarded for some reason I have yet to determine.



There is no debate that these people came here illegally. What we are debating is what to do with them.

^

Wanna bet that the end result is some sort of amnesty for illegials here already?

[Latrinsorm]

I think you meant to use tenets not tenants While we're on the subject, the phrase is "en masse", not "on mass". You would also do well to avoid those incredible run-on sentences.

Backlash, I'm curious as to why you think these issues are separate. Certainly we've only got the one border? I think it's because you appear to have classified the worker immigrants under "We can talk about how people are criminals for wanting to live here and work" when the truly criminal aspect of the situation (besides the disregard for human rights bit) is the same criminal aspect of a terrorist sneaking into the country. Namely, the sneaking into the country part.

[Warriorbird]

Jesus would clearly turn all the people who want to find hope in America away, Latrin. He'd hate them poor types.

[Warriorbird]

27 illegals arrested.. 10,999,973 to go.

The point was more that they were working on airplanes....for the government. A fair number were even Middle Eastern in origin.

[Back]

While we're on the subject, the phrase is "en masse", not "on mass". You would also do well to avoid those incredible run-on sentences.

Backlash, I'm curious as to why you think these issues are separate. Certainly we've only got the one border? I think it's because you appear to have classified the worker immigrants under "We can talk about how people are criminals for wanting to live here and work" when the truly criminal aspect of the situation (besides the disregard for human rights bit) is the same criminal aspect of a terrorist sneaking into the country. Namely, the sneaking into the country part.

Exactly why trying to criminalize everyone who is already here is a waste of time and money. I'm all for securing our checkpoints. It may make it harder to get into our country. But thats the point.

[Skirmisher]

I am not sure I buy the argument that most Americans came from illegal immigrants, speaking for myself my parents emigrated from England to Canada legally, then from Canada to America legally, and back to Canada legally.
Great.

Keep yourself and your opinion up there then.

[Sean of the Thread]

I spoke to a LEGAL immigrant tonite who was disgusted by the protests and such. He is from Mexico. He said these people are criminals and should be treated as such. He said they take away from everything that he and other legals have worked so hard for...citizenship. He wants his children to be proud of him for doing it right and giving them the American dream.

He said and I quote "Round them up and ship them out.. they disgrace me and my family."

He also said he HATES George Bush but he thinks he was the best option. I was shocked.

[Hulkein]

Jesus would clearly turn all the people who want to find hope in America away, Latrin. He'd hate them poor types.

It's impossible to run a country that would survive if you were to do everything Jesus said, unless of course every other country went along with it.

Saying shit like that is pretty stupid of you...

[Back]

Denouncing Jesus' real truths makes you even stupider.

[Hulkein]

It makes you a realist.

I'll do what Jesus says the best I can, personally. That doesn't mean it will apply to a nation as a whole without ruining it.

[Warriorbird]

Funny. Why the fuck would you base policy off of it then? IE: Defense of Israel, abortion, abstinence, going against stem cell therapy...

I think helping the poor should probably be included too. Or is this just pick and choose Christian policymaking?

The irony here is that I think we do need to make efforts to combat illegal immigration. They wouldn't be coming here if they couldn't find work or get government benefits. Man up and cut those things off and I see little reason to make them fuel the bullshit prison industry.

[Hulkein]

It's impossible to run a country that would survive if you were to do everything Jesus said,

Notice the bold.

Yes, it is selective, to a certain extent.

I'm for helping the poor. Poor American's who are attempting to find work.

I'm not for letting in every poor person in the world who wants to be here and then giving them welfare when they can't find work/good enough work to support their family just because Jesus told people to shelter the poor.

[Sean of the Thread]

Funny. Why the fuck would you base policy off of it then? IE: Defense of Israel, abortion, abstinence, going against stem cell therapy...

I think helping the poor should probably be included too. Or is this just pick and choose Christian policymaking?

The irony here is that I think we do need to make efforts to combat illegal immigration. They wouldn't be coming here if they couldn't find work or get government benefits. Man up and cut those things off and I see little reason to make them fuel the bullshit prison industry.

Gee to think we wouldn't have these problems in the world today if Moses told his God to STFU.

[Daniel]

I'm not for letting in every poor person in the world who wants to be here and then giving them welfare when they can't find work/good enough work to support their family just because Jesus told people to shelter the poor.
__________________



The funny thing is Mexican Americans have a higher percentage of adults in the work force than any other minority.

[xtc]

>>So mass disregard for the law justifies it?<<

^

No idea what the fuck your talking about. Justifies what? Moving here illegially is not the same as robbing or stabbing someone.

You seemed to imply that large numbers of people committing a crime justifies the crime.


"Originally Posted by Daniel
It would be a comparable situation if people all around the country just like you were robbing stores. "

Just because illegal immigration isn't in the same league as murder doesn't mean illegal immigration isn't a crime.



I said Immigration is not illegial. Unless you intend to suggest that everyone who moves here is breaking the law then your obviously being retarded for some reason I have yet to determine.

We all know that legal immigration isn't illegal. It seemed like you were combining all immigration together and not differentiating between legal and illegal. If that isn't what you were doing then why point out the obvious?



>>There is no debate that these people came here illegally. What we are debating is what to do with them.<<

^

Wanna bet that the end result is some sort of amnesty for illegials here already?

I acknowledged the debate was what to do with these people. I wouldn't be the least surprised if amnesty was granted for illegal aliens already in America.

[xtc]

While we're on the subject, the phrase is "en masse", not "on mass". You would also do well to avoid those incredible run-on sentences.


I didn't use the phrase "on mass" or "en masse". I said mass which is perfectly acceptable. Do you have a particular sentence you object to?

[xtc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtc
I am not sure I buy the argument that most Americans came from illegal immigrants, speaking for myself my parents emigrated from England to Canada legally, then from Canada to America legally, and back to Canada legally.


Great.

Keep yourself and your opinion up there then.

I think most of us relate to our own situations when examining an issue. If you can provide some proof that the majority people living in America are descendants of illegal immigrants, I would love to see it.

[xtc]

Funny. Why the fuck would you base policy off of it then? IE: Defense of Israel, abortion, abstinence, going against stem cell therapy...

I think helping the poor should probably be included too. Or is this just pick and choose Christian policymaking?

The irony here is that I think we do need to make efforts to combat illegal immigration. They wouldn't be coming here if they couldn't find work or get government benefits. Man up and cut those things off and I see little reason to make them fuel the bullshit prison industry.


I don't think abortion, abstinence, opposition to embryonic stem cell research (not all stem research) are Christian positions. To value human life, which is the motivator for a Pro-Life stance and opposition to embryonic stem cell research, is a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, and humanist quality.

[xtc]

Jesus would clearly turn all the people who want to find hope in America away, Latrin. He'd hate them poor types.

“Render onto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s”

I don't think Christ would favour those who break the law over those who observe the law. Let's not forget the masses of people who are waiting to come to America legally. We shouldn't punish them and reward the illegals.

[Warriorbird]

I think Jesus was definitely about some civil disobedience...if he disagreed with a law. I don't base my thinking on his actions and the words in the Bible... but a fair number of people in politics and out seem to. I think they lose perspective when they forget how devoted he was to helping the poor. I think Americans love to forget, "Give us your poor, your huddled masses," as well, and have loved to for centuries.

[xtc]

I think Jesus was definitely about some civil disobedience...if he disagreed with a law. I don't base my thinking on his actions and the words in the Bible... but a fair number of people in politics and out seem to. I think they lose perspective when they forget how devoted he was to helping the poor. I think Americans love to forget, "Give us your poor, your huddled masses," as well, and have loved to for centuries.

I would agree that many supposed Christians have strayed far from Christ's message.

Not all solutions are easy. We have to factor in compassion into the equation, believe it or not Pat Robertson called on Christians to embrace compassion on this issue and support Bush's guest worker program. America can't house all the poor of the world. We need to support legal, diverse immigration but we can't grant amnesty to those already here or the situation will just get worse.

[ElanthianSiren]

I think Jesus was definitely about some civil disobedience...if he disagreed with a law. I don't base my thinking on his actions and the words in the Bible... but a fair number of people in politics and out seem to. I think they lose perspective when they forget how devoted he was to helping the poor. I think Americans love to forget, "Give us your poor, your huddled masses," as well, and have loved to for centuries.


Someone is just going to argue with you that the statue of liberty is from France. Only since Grant, has this country waged war on immigration (1875), so little over a century. We were actually very encouraging of immigrants up through the civil war and after. I agree with you on Jesus, and I'm not sure we can say how he would have seen it, were he here today.


-M

[Warriorbird]

Without France in the Revolutionary War we wouldn't exist.

:chuckles:

They like to forget that too...as much as I detest France myself these days...I think America is deciding we can be international misanthropes just like they've been at times.

[Latrinsorm]

I didn't use the phrase "on mass" or "en masse". I said mass which is perfectly acceptable. Do you have a particular sentence you object to?Yes:
Illegal immigrants come to America on mass.

[Anebriated]

I didnt read the whole thread so im not sure if it was brought up or not yet, but why did they all insist on waving mexican flags while protesting illegal immigration rights?

[Skirmisher]

I didnt read the whole thread so im not sure if it was brought up or not yet, but why did they all insist on waving mexican flags while protesting illegal immigration rights?


By "all" I must assume you also mean these flags.
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/POLITICS/04/09/immigration.protests.ap/story.protest.ap.jpg
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/09/immigration.protests.ap/index.html

[Anebriated]

Or this.

edit: I dont like the new website format, how do you post a pic without a clicky now?

[Skirmisher]

Obviously there were many Mexican flags at the earlier rallies and still some at the most recent, but by and large at the more recent gatherings the overwhelming majority of flags even in the photo you posted were US and not Mexican.

[Anebriated]

Yeah, I agree alot of the flags were american. I just find it stupid that they ask for immigration rights and show up to the rally with a mexican flag. I understand having love for your home country but if you are gonna broadcast it that much then why leave in the first place?

[Warriorbird]

Nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this county is closely related with this.

-Albert Einstein

...

[Seran]

They showed up with Mexican flags until the latino DJ's and broad casters told them to begin using American flags. If this wasn't orgnized, there wouldn't have been a tenth of the gatherings we've seen.

[Warriorbird]

People organizing a protest! For shame!

:rolls eyes:

[longshot]

They showed up with Mexican flags until the latino DJ's and broad casters told them to begin using American flags. If this wasn't orgnized, there wouldn't have been a tenth of the gatherings we've seen.


True.

I was interviewing for graduate school in New York this past Monday, and I witnessed a huge protest in the street... well over 50,000 people in Manhattan.

I think the man next to me on the street talking on his phone summed it up best:

"Why don't they just get a huge fucking net and send them all the fuck back home?"

[Skirmisher]

People organizing a protest! For shame!

:rolls eyes:

Yes, I wish they could all have gathered spontaneously without anyone organizing anything like every other major protest in the nations history.

Everyone knows the montgomery bus boycott was not organized at all but simply a coincidental event where ever single black bus rider in Montgomery decided individually at the same time to not give them their business.

[Sean of the Thread]

Without France in the Revolutionary War we wouldn't exist.

:chuckles:

They like to forget that too...as much as I detest France myself these days...I think America is deciding we can be international misanthropes just like they've been at times.


That's debatable. What isn't debatable is that France only saw the oppurtunity and took it with self interest in mind.. helping "US" was just a side effect.

[Warriorbird]

Oh definitely. I'll agree with you there.

[Back]

April 8 SNL skit on immigration (http://extras.denverpost.com/multimedia/flashvideo/tancredo1/0409tancredo.html)

[Sean of the Thread]

Follow the breasts!

[Seran]

The point, Warriorbird, which you clearly are not getting is that they organized under the banner of a the Mexico flag. Suddenly all this bad press comes about, and the orgnizers had them switch to American flags.

The local UFW was offering fifty dollars per attendee for the rally here in Bakersfield. Now tell me that isn't corruption.

[Warriorbird]

Uhm... if you didn't know, the loyal bastions of the Republican Party raise money in churches. Operation Rescue organizes their protests.

When they finally concluded that "creationism" wasn't working, Latrin's team switched to "intelligent design."

Get over it.

[Back]

The point, Warriorbird, which you clearly are not getting is that they organized under the banner of a the Mexico flag. Suddenly all this bad press comes about, and the orgnizers had them switch to American flags.

The local UFW was offering fifty dollars per attendee for the rally here in Bakersfield. Now tell me that isn't corruption.

You live in Bakersfield, CA?? God damn, Bakersfield NEEDS immigrants. NoCal weed is too expensive.

[Sean of the Thread]

Uhm... if you didn't know, the loyal bastions of the Republican Party raise money in churches. Operation Rescue organizes their protests.

When they finally concluded that "creationism" wasn't working, Latrin's team switched to "intelligent design."

Get over it.


Uhm the Democrats also raise money in churches.

[Warriorbird]

Yes. You're missing the point...which was that both parties organize and do "corrupt things." undering Seran's ideals.

[Sean of the Thread]

I don't see how paying for participants and protests (which Chavez does btw) has anything to do with fundraising being done anywhere in particular. I'm just a simple minded alcoholic homophobic racist mind you so be easy on me.

[Warriorbird]

Operation Rescue does this as well, as does Fred Phelps upon occassion. I didn't want to go into particulars because not a lot of Republicans like Phelps either. Both parties certainly organize.

[Jazuela]

If the KKK organized an anti-abortion rally and offered free hotdogs and beer for whoever attended, I'd attend, and invite everyone I've ever met, even if I have no idea who they are.

The more money they have to dish out for my gastronomic adventures, the less they have to pour into their cause. I'd make it a pet project to eat them out of business!

[Latrinsorm]

Both parties certainly organize.The point Seran is making is that there's a difference between saying "We're rallying behind X ideal" and "We're rallying behind X ideal and there's $50 in it for you if you play along". Political fundraising is bafflingly irrelevant.

[Warriorbird]

Uhm...the "organize" bit was over the Mexican flags/American flags issue.

:coughs:

And if you think this issue isn't politicized...well...

[Skirmisher]

The point Seran is making is that there's a difference between saying "We're rallying behind X ideal" and "We're rallying behind X ideal and there's $50 in it for you if you play along". Political fundraising is bafflingly irrelevant.

I know you are more intelligent than to think that the majority or even a sizable percentage of all the people attending rallies around the nation are being paid.

There will always be a radical fringe to any movement but to paint the entire group with that same tainted brush is a huge injustice.

[Tsa`ah]

The point Seran is making is that there's a difference between saying "We're rallying behind X ideal" and "We're rallying behind X ideal and there's $50 in it for you if you play along". Political fundraising is bafflingly irrelevant.

Considering both parties have been known to do it, the difference is irrelevant no matter the cause.

Vote dem my homeless drunk and you'll get a fifth of whatever.

Vote rep my homeless smoker and you'll get a pack of cigarettes.

"Remember to vote republican or you are not eligible for the $75 dollar consideration" .... was the frequently heard repeatable at the U of I campus on election day.

So don't give us that "50 bucks for the rally" bullshit. Had it been the GOP offering 50 bucks for anyone to rally against it ... chances are you wouldn't have commented about it.

[Latrinsorm]

And if you think this issue isn't politicizedActually I think this issue isn't about political fundraising. That's why I said "Political fundraising is bafflingly irrelevant.", because I was talking about political fundraising.
but to paint the entire group with that same tainted brush is a huge injustice.Nowhere did I imply that every person at the rally was in fact paid for their attendance. I was pointing out the difference between pure organizing and what Seran was actually saying for Warriorbird, who missed it rather badly the first time around.
Considering both parties have been known to do itHere's why this is an especially baffling defense: The challenge is that X are doing Y. The rebuttal is that both X and Z do Y, thereby AGREEING with the challenge. Then at the end you add this gem: "So don't give us that "50 bucks for the rally" bullshit." Truly, truly baffling.

[Warriorbird]

I was pointing out the difference between pure organizing and what Seran was actually saying for Warriorbird, who missed it rather badly the first time around.

I guess you've taken the flat out lying tactic for your own. Kudos! It is a variation from philosophobabble and platitudes.

[Sean of the Thread]

The "flat out lying tactic" is prevalent all around.

[Seran]

flat out ignorant.

[Caiylania]

While I understand the complications involved legally, the strain on taxpayers money... Nothing in me can begrudge people wanting a better life. Don't we all?

Wish there was an answer.

[Sean of the Thread]

While I understand the complications involved legally, the strain on taxpayers money... Nothing in me can begrudge people wanting a better life. Don't we all?

Wish there was an answer.


There is an answer. DO IT LEGALLY like millions and millions of others have done.

[Warriorbird]

Right. Because paying thousands in bribes to Mexican officials is an ideal goal.

I won't actually knock attempting to deal with illegal immigration. There's valid practical reasons for it. With that said, this is an ill concieved and limited effort that is likely to ultimately go nowhere. The whole "we're not backing down" attitude makes great press too...for the bill's opponents and protestors.

[Faent]

For the folks who unintelligently bandy about bullshit remarks, "I'm all for LEGAL immigration...", what would you disciples of the State say about immigration if the government MADE IT ALL LEGAL AND CHEAP. Would you then be trotting out your sweet little "I'm all for LEGAL immigration" comments? If so, you're valuing the current law as worth more than the lives of human beings, and you need to learn to stop bowing down like a pathetic, morally depraved sycophant before a very wealthy man with multiple business interests known as your Senator. If not, then you're clearly moving towards properly falling under the predicate "xenophobic". Either way, your position is morally suspect.

[Sean of the Thread]

You're not gonna hear me praise the Senate or House anytime soon.

I value the current law for the GREATER GOOD of our own.

If I cared about the greater good of Mexico over that of Americans I suppose I would be ..well.. Mexican instead.

[Valthissa]

For the folks who unintelligently bandy about bullshit remarks, "I'm all for LEGAL immigration...", what would you disciples of the State say about immigration if the government MADE IT ALL LEGAL AND CHEAP. Would you then be trotting out your sweet little "I'm all for LEGAL immigration" comments? If so, you're valuing the current law as worth more than the lives of human beings, and you need to learn to stop bowing down like a pathetic, morally depraved sycophant before a very wealthy man with multiple business interests known as your Senator. If not, then you're clearly moving towards properly falling under the predicate "xenophobic". Either way, your position is morally suspect.

Just a thought-

I've never changed anyone's opinion by attacking their intelligence, morals, or motivation.

If you have a reasoned argument, make it. What you present above is hardly a either/or dliemna for people in favor of legal immigration.

C/Valth Strong proponent of legal immigration and one who believes that the rule of law is actually worth more than indidual human beings (which is different from what you posited above)

[Warriorbird]

It's weird to be on sort of the same side as Faent.

I'm all for reasoned legislation, but when the two motivating forces... (companies employing people and government benefits} aren't addressed, I see the whole fight as ill concieved.

[Skirmisher]

Wow, way to not even try to hide the fact you are employing large numbers of illegals. I mean at least put on a show of trying to open and being shocked at finding so many not at work for goodness sake.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/28/news/companies/companies_boycott/index.htm?section=money_latest

Tyson to shutter plants over immigration protest
Meat producer to close nine undisclosed plants as company expects worker shortages on day of nationwide protest.
April 28, 2006: 12:50 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - Tyson Foods Inc. said Friday it would close a number of its meat processing plants Monday in response to a planned nationwide protest by immigrant workers.

The meat processor said nine of its more than 100 plants would suspend operations for the day because of an expected lack of workers.

A nationwide series of boycotts and marches are planned for May 1 by pro-immigrant activists as part of an effort to urge Congress to grant amnesty to the estimated 11.5 to 12 million unauthorized immigrants living in the United States.

"We understand the sentiment behind the May 1st events, but we are not encouraging workers to participate in the rally," Tyson spokesman Gary Mickelson told CNN.

Mickelson said the nine Tyson (down $0.07 to $14.48, Research) facilities that will be closed are red meat plants, but he would not reveal which specific plants would be closed.

[Sean of the Thread]

>>Wow, way to not even try to hide the fact you are employing large numbers of illegals. I mean at least put on a show of trying to open and being shocked at finding so many not at work for goodness sake.<<

I'm pretty sure LEGAL idiots will be protesting.

I honestly can't wait to see how the day unfolds and I bet alot of people are going to lose their jobs. Kids walking out of school!?!? That will show us the power of the immigrant!

[Skirmisher]

>>Wow, way to not even try to hide the fact you are employing large numbers of illegals. I mean at least put on a show of trying to open and being shocked at finding so many not at work for goodness sake.<<

I'm pretty sure LEGAL idiots will be protesting.


Yes, of course it's possible that they are only concerned with the large number of expected legal workers calling out in a show of solidarity.

I just tend to find that doubtfull.

[Sean of the Thread]

Of course they're not ONLY concerned about the LARGE number of LEGAL workers protesting. However the burden of proof is on you.

I still don't understand organizers organizing walkouts and boycotts of schools? Excellent strategy!

I hope the entire thing is a clusterfuck today. THE POWER OF IMMIGRANTS!!

[DeV]

Yes, of course it's possible that they are only concerned with the large number of expected legal workers calling out in a show of solidarity.

I just tend to find that doubtfull.I agree. Haha... I think they hired so many illegal aliens they had no choice but to close those particular plants for the day. And it does not come as a surprise to anyone who is remotely aware of the companys shady hiring practices in the past.

Oh, and who can forget the three Tyson execs indicted for human smuggling back in 2001.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/19/154608.shtml

[ElanthianSiren]

I understand completely kids boycotting school, even if I think it's not the wisest course of action and could serve to endanger the very people they're rallying for. That said, a large number of lily white american kids think it's necessary and cool to cut high school for no reason at all; are we saying we expect a higher standard from kids who feel strongly about the fate of their families and relatives?

Civil disobedience has always been rooted in doing something that is considered "wrong" by the value judgements of your society, yet generally peaceful, hence the name. They are simply doing what has worked in this country in the past.

-M

[Sean of the Thread]

I wonder if they're boycotting U.S. hospitals and emergency rooms today also?

So far today the "walkout" (rofl) is def causing more harm than any good. Pissing off the rest of the nation and legal immigants with their "lets hurt America day" wasn't the best idea.. just a guess.

[Latrinsorm]

Civil disobedience has always been rooted in doing something that is considered "wrong" by the value judgements of your society, yet generally peaceful, hence the name.What's peculiar is this: nobody on the walkout side seems to be rallying for any sort of ideal. I don't hear anybody claiming that all immigration should be legal or that illegal immigration is morally justified somehow. It appears to be a vague sort of dislike for the proposed bill, but nobody I've heard of has advanced any sort of "why" besides churches wanting to help people regardless of legal status, which I don't think anyone has a problem with (even the people who generally don't like churches and religion in general).

[Sean of the Thread]

The people get help no matter legal status anyways. So far the U.S. flag has been extremely outnumbered in the "boycotts".

[Warriorbird]

Gotta love that little spin drop, Xyelin.

Clean up the damn hospital/benefits stuff. Bust up companies like Tyson. I bet you won't provoke nearly as much as the "Let's make them felons!" idiocy.

[Sean of the Thread]

COME ONE AND COME ALL!!! But do it by the law.

They're being assholes. I'd say they're pretty fucking fortunate that they even have the right to protest and DEMAND equal rights when they're not even fucking citizens.. criminals no matter how you look at it.

It's okay because today just made them look 10x worse to everyone else.

Demanding amesty and equal rights with all the legal U.S. citizens whilst waving 5000 Mexican flags... classy.

[CrystalTears]

Damnit, it's a frightening day when I totally agree with one of Xyelin's post. Curses! :D

[ElanthianSiren]

I believe the protests began in wake of the proposed House immigration bill, which cleared the House and is now in the Senate.

Were it not as difficult as it is to get into this country, I'd agree with Xyelin's stance. When you start giving immense preference to doctors and lawyers and lottery out everyone else, then I'm going to disagree, especially when the immigrants fill a niche. If it was just a matter of doing some paperwork, I doubt very highly this many people would be protesting. I'm sure they'd rather live securely than watching for the INS constantly.

The point of the gatherings (today) is to prove that America needs its immigrants, legal or otherwise. And yes, all of us are very lucky that we have the right to freedom of assembly and speech/expression.

-M

[Latrinsorm]

I doubt very highly this many people would be protesting.This is what I'm saying. The quoted people don't strike me as saying anything about immigration policies per se. I mean look at this: "They had their Martin Luther King. Now it is time for us." "Enough is enough of the xenophobic movement" "When did you ever see a Mexican blow up the World Trade Center?" The general trend seems to be "Racism is wrong". I agree with that, but it doesn't mean that illegal immigration is ok or inherently non-felonious. What's the connection?

[Alfster]

Sadly our cleaning crew showed up to work today :(

[ElanthianSiren]

This is what I'm saying. The quoted people don't strike me as saying anything about immigration policies per se. I mean look at this: "They had their Martin Luther King. Now it is time for us." "Enough is enough of the xenophobic movement" "When did you ever see a Mexican blow up the World Trade Center?" The general trend seems to be "Racism is wrong". I agree with that, but it doesn't mean that illegal immigration is ok or inherently non-felonious. What's the connection?


One could argue that the xenophobic movement was exacorbated by 9/11 and that the migrants are proposing that Congress is attempting to capitalize on that nationalism/fear from those quotes. During the 2004 elections, I remember some kind of paranoid scare about how people were coming up from Mexico to kill the President. I'm fairly sure that nothing ever came of it though (not that the public heard).

I agree; they need to be pushing for specific reforms and coming out in support of Bush's guest worker program or Ted Kennedy's proposed measure if they really want to stay here. This reaction, however, seems emotional, not exactly as logical as it could be.

-M

[Stanley Burrell]

One could argue that the xenophobic movement was exacorbated by 9/11 and that the migrants are proposing that Congress is attempting to capitalize on that nationalism/fear from those quotes. During the 2004 elections, I remember some kind of paranoid scare about how people were coming up from Mexico to kill the President. I'm fairly sure that nothing ever came of it though (not that the public heard).

I would botch up certain Asiatic people as being non-white Hispanics before that was ever the case with most Semitic individuals.

And yes, America, paranoia, and all that jazz.

[Warriorbird]

They need fear to function. This is just another enemy (and yet another one that they make economic profit off of). Rock on with y'all's bad selves.

[Skirmisher]

Sadly our cleaning crew showed up to work today :(

Because you and your co-workers were so looking forward to cleaning your own place of work.

[Skirmisher]

COME ONE AND COME ALL!!! But do it by the law.

They're being assholes. I'd say they're pretty fucking fortunate that they even have the right to protest and DEMAND equal rights when they're not even fucking citizens.. criminals no matter how you look at it.

You do realize that not ALL those that were at the protests were illegals, yes?

And please do not forget who is a HUGE motivating force providing funding behind all of these groups organizing the rallies.

Our very own lovely corporate america and their love for cheap readily available labor.

Thanks Tyson foods et al !!

Or should I say, Muchas Gracias.

[Warriorbird]

Tyson Foods, ADM, Walmart...curiously enough... all Republican contributors.

[Latrinsorm]

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!!!

[Sean of the Thread]

Retard.

[Warriorbird]

I'm not saying anything about "a conspiracy" or anything like that... I'm saying it isn't in the Republicans' enlightened self interest to pursue all aspects of the problem. It also helps if the "fear" target isn't a large corporation but instead a faceless wave of individuals. Easier to dehumanize that way.

Honestly, I don't think either party has the balls to deal with the issue. The Democrats immediately bend over for any minority group and the Republicans would never dare hurt a corporation. Nothing will change. There'll be a lot of hot air.

[Back]

I support Bush’s recent decisions regarding this matter.

Secure the border.

Round-up is not feasible.